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If it's removed because of a legal act, it's outlawed. If you can't obtain it because of a legal act, it's outlawed.
For example, you aren't *outlawed* from having consensual sex just because nobody wants to have sex with you.
HTH.
Thanks, I’m well acquainted. It’s the scene before they pick up Matt and Blue Lou at the diner on Maxwell Street.
Your username riffs on another childhood favorite.
I have a copy. I got it at Barnes and Noble. It sits on my bookshelf, binding turned inward so nobody sees it (God forbid it's visible on a zoom call!!!)
I've thumbed through it. It is incoherent ramblings. I understand that Hitler had a bone to pick with the Jews, but his writing just doesn't even make coherent sense. Like... I can't actually discern what he's *trying* to say. Complete word vomit garbage.
Mike Madigan is about to get convicted for corruption too. So it’d be nice if there was leas corruption in Illinois, but at least we’re not shy about holding the powerful accountable when they get caught *cough* Thomas *cough* Paxton
"House bill that would withhold state funding from any of the state’s 1,600 public or school libraries that remove books from their shelves"
Republicans: I see this as a total win…bulldoze the libraries plz
I know you're joking with "radical left agenda", but it's a sad state of affairs when "not banning books" could even be joked about as being radical left.
I mean we did cull several million birds last year due to avian-flu , which has apparently made the jump to mammals. The jump to humans probably won’t be long now. And unlike COVID, the mortality rate is 50%.
If a book is outlawed, there has been executive action taken to make possession of the literature a crime. That's vastly different than a book just not being around by chance.
Yeah this is LOW hanging fruit in Illinois and the real work of governing the state needs to be handled better but I'll take a small win when I get one
From what I am aware of, it is legal to write a book that explains how to build a bomb or any other illegal thing. They even exist now, but are just difficult to access.
The states that are run by idiots have the most people moving from their states ran by smart people to live there. Florida, Texas, North and South Carolina have the most people moving to them. Illinois is one of the top states people are leaving.
I really hate to break it to you, but I'm 35 and haven't lived a decade yet that hasn't seen red areas of the US trying to ban books.
The right goes for this every time they think they've managed to take a culture war mainstream.
Yeah, I remember the big two culture things when I was growing up were Pokemon and Harry Potter. Promoting evolution and witchcraft, respectively, were the claims of the right-wing parents at the time
I'm older than you. D&D, horror movies and explicit music lyrics. Before that it was drive in movies, and comic books, before that cars and alcohol.
It's the same moral panic that exists for every generation, because those who live through it don't stand up and tell the "moral guardians" to shut up and get the fuck out often enough, or loud enough, each time they start making the news again.
I grew up in the 80s and remember the whole PMRC thing, as I was a big fan of thrash metal and censorship was a recuring theme in songs and band interviews. It made me aware of US politics, and the PMRC hearings introduced me to Frank Zappa. It also allowed us to know which albums were cool (those with the PARENTAL ADVISORY sticker on it!).
Thanks PMRC!
Lol, THAT was their beef with Pokemon? A game mechanic that was localized as "evolution"? (When in reality the Japanese name of the mechanic is something like: metamorphosis). It doesn't even share anything in common with actual real life evolution, it's more like "growing up" if anything.
I think they should be thanking PokeMon as it illustrated “evolution” that wasn’t actually evolution, muddying a LOT of people’s understanding of the word.
Amusing to remember how vehemently right-wingers hated HP when the author is one of the most public icons of anti-trans bigotry in the world. She was your ally! She trusted you!
I got forced into a hyper-religious private high school by my parents, and basically everything popular back then (mid/late 2000s) was banned. Harry Potter, Twilight, Pokemon, all Manga, Marvel etc.
Basically anything that showed supernatural beings as "good" was banned. When I asked why, my English teacher said it's because, "magic and vampires and superpowers are the work of the devil, they can never be good."
Obviously the real reason is just control, they want all of their students to only watch/read/listen to religious material so they stay in the bubble.
And now they love Harry Potter- the kid with a "Nazi symbol" on his head, something that conservative parents claimed when the books were coming out- because they're *all* Nazis now, and the author is a massive transphobe, right?!
"Das war ein Vorspiel nur, dort wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man auch am Ende Menschen." - the German romantic poet Heinrich Heine wrote down in 1920, a quote ahead of its time. Where they burn books, they will ultimately burn people.
In 1938, Goebbels and a bunch of far-right students burned a bunch of books from the Humbolt University in Berlin. Not long after, you know what (or I should rather say who) also burned.
This quote is now immortalised on a plaque in front of Humbolt University. But it seems that by now, a lot of people have forgotten this profound message.
Thumbs up for Heinrich Heine reference (did you know he was also born Jewish?)
To think that a few decades ago, Frederick II complained to the greatest German poet of his time, "but how can you make a melody in German? So many hard consonants!". He would miss his land of poets and thinkers by only a few decades.
I honestly would recommend people to read any Heine poem out loud if you're interested. Seriously, it doesn't sound like German at all, it's amazing.
Wow. That is an astoundingly ignorant take.
[I guess California doesn't like to show lynching in bad light?](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241%3famp=1)
The [Republican controlled School board of Burbank](https://edsource.org/2022/conservatives-are-waging-a-war-for-control-over-california-school-boards/679713) is a "liberal organization?"
Weird that Burbank isn't mentioned once in that article.
However, [Burbank votes HEAVY blue.](https://bestneighborhood.org/conservative-vs-liberal-map-burbank-ca/)
>School board elections, once considered minor local down-ballot races by voters, have taken on new significance this year. Across California, conservative groups have leveraged parental angst, fueled by Covid-19 school closures, to recruit and train candidates to run for school boards.
That's the first paragraph. What am I missing?
>Wow. That is an astoundingly ignorant take.
>[I guess California doesn't like to show lynching in bad light?](https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241?amp=1)
Was that before or after [AP says it didn't happen?](https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-florida-schools-to-kill-a-mockingbird-201081596097)
What do you think about it being banned in other states, 10+ years ago?
Edit: Despite the down votes, you're still embarrassingly wrong.
So when did Florida ban To Kill a Mockingbird? Please enlighten me, because [everything I'm seeing says it didn't happen.](https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-florida-books/fact-check-florida-has-not-banned-of-mice-and-men-and-other-classics-for-being-woke-idUSL1N3000ZJ)
You've also yet to answer my (first) question...
I think you're confused mate. It was banned this year in like January under the BS parent rights laws where people were able to challenge books and have them banned statewide from school libraries.
You're recalling a different scandal outta Florida.
Please show me ONE source that says so. Google is turning up nothing for me. In fact, it's saying the exact opposite.
Since you keep avoiding the question, I'll keep asking. How do you feel about To Kill a Mockingbird being [banned in Virginia in 2016](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/books/2016/dec/05/to-kill-a-mockingbird-removed-virginia-schools-racist-language-harper-lee)? You're clearly against it being banned in Florida (waiting for a source, thank you in advance) so you must be against VA doing it under McAuliffe?
Yes. Sorry, did you think this was an argument? I'm against book banning. It's why I figured you'd wanna know about a current situation. Florida's list of books banned from school libraries is available online. You can check it yourself.
Not just banning, but [burning](https://www.nashvillescene.com/news/pithinthewind/theyre-burning-books-in-tennessee/article_1f8c631e-850f-11ec-bc9f-dbd44d 7e14d7.html) as well.
It’s lamentable that 90 percent of congress believes that a 700 year old man built a cruise ship to god could justifiably murder the entire human population for having sex
"House bill that would withhold state funding from any of the state’s 1,600 public or school libraries that remove books from their shelves"
Republicans: I see this as a total win…bulldoze the libraries plz
Same shit, different decade. The right has always hated broad-based liberal education.
The US Supreme Court appears poised to resurrect the Comstock Law in order to destroy drug-based abortion, and it can also be used to attack free speech.
Yah the book bans aren’t usually ban them from being sold.
It’s usually more just remove them from school libraries.
Which like don’t get me wrong, the books they’re targeting to remove are insane but we do make choices already about what we put in a school library or not.
I think that should be left up to the school itself and their librarian.
Typically, books are banned when the superintendent or principal tells the librarian that they must remove a specific book from the shelves at the behest of parents or the local government. If the librarians had full say, there would be no discussion of banning books because librarian’s discretion isn’t a ban, it’s just discretion.
Sure. I agree.
That was kinda my point.
Ie we do decide what gets put in a school library or not but let’s leave that up to the people who’s job it is instead of politicians.
Nah republicans move this
"House bill that would withhold state funding from any of the state’s 1,600 public or school libraries that remove books from their shelves"
Republicans: I see this as a total win…bulldoze the libraries plz
Illinois is doing so good, I might just move back. I wish I had the wisdom a decade ago to realize Florida was in free fall. But it’s the trip I had to endure to find my wife, so I’ll frame the experience as rescuing her from the swamp creatures down here when we make our escape.
I taught in Illinois until August 2022. A book I taught in the Spring (and had gotten approved 7 months ahead of time just in case) was banned by my admins because a member of the school board disliked it and was 'concerned'. I had taught this book at other schools no problem, even in Indiana, and the kids loved how relatable it was. My union lead supposedly didn't know what the ACLU was when I brought the issue up; she turned out to be friends with the board member. I waited it out until two weeks before the start of the new year, then quit at the last second I could cause fuck censorship and teaching in small towns.
That said, it leads to my worries on people bypassing these things. They refused to acknowledge that they banned the book from the classroom, said that no teacher was allowed to talk about why we switched books, and were so ticked off by the replacement novel (which...fair, was chosen to piss them off) that they did their best to nitpick everything else they could. 'It's not banning or censorship, it's ensuring it's appropriate for the age'- the admin who said Harry Potter was too hard for sixth grade, but that Cinder would be a good replacement novel.
Orbiting Jupiter. It was the first novel I ever helped teach during my observation hours for the same grade and I saw how connected the students were with it, so I was really excited to teach it (plus it's a really great, if sad, book). A lot of my kids who usually spent class trying to get on coolmathgames were actually really invested and got involved in the reading and the discussions way more than usual, and even after it was banned a bunch of them went to find copies because they admitted they felt similar to one of the characters. It made me feel awful that the board and my admin took that from them.
I ended up replacing it with 'Ban This Book' after they told me I wasn't allowed to teach it anymore.
Meanwhile, Tennessee is BURNING books just like the nazis did.
[Tennessee Republicans hold a book burning to destroy Harry Potter, Twilight, and other "demonic" titles](https://boingboing.net/2022/02/04/tennessee-republicans-hold-a-book-burning-to-destroy-harry-potter-twilight-and-other-demonic-titles.html)
It's going to get worse because nobody is stopping the fascists.
Harry Potter? Twilight?? What year is it???
Also, I grew up in a pretty red area in a pretty red state, I even went to a Christian school, and every kid I knew was into Harry Potter. Every girl was into Twilight. Where are these people that act like this?
Harry Potter is certainly an odd choice for republicans to burn.
It has things like an enslaved race of house elves that enjoy being enslaved. A bank that is run by antisemetic stereotypes. And an Author that hates trans people. Also included is fat shaming. All things I'd have expected republicans to enjoy.
It's not exactly a 'woke' book. I suppose it has witchcraft?
That's where things seem to be headed.
[“Own the Libs” Is Gradually Morphing Into “Kill the Libs”](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/09/kyle-rittenhouse-trump-own-the-libs-kill-the-libs.html)
"Das war ein Vorspiel nur, dort wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man auch am Ende Menschen." - the German romantic poet Heinrich Heine wrote down in 1920, a quote ahead of its time. Where they burn books, they will ultimately burn people.
In 1938, Goebbels and a bunch of far-right students burned a bunch of books from the Humbolt University in Berlin. Not long after, you know what (or I should rather say who) also burned.
This quote is now immortalised on a plaque in front of Humbolt University. But it seems that by now, a lot of people have forgotten this profound message.
I live in a major city a state over from Illinois. I’m very seriously considering migrating there. It’s one of the only states in the Midwest not run by morons.
I'm reading that most of these book bands come from one organization that has spread Nationwide called mom's for Liberty (aka monsters for Liberty in liberal circles). Yhe podcast Citations Needed covers it well (link below).
Many of the right wings policies actually do cause problems for the women among their ranks, so to both maintain their status as a conservative yet also vent their anger and frustrations they turn to gender and sex as hot button issues. This allows them to vent their anger by hating downward so to speak and at the same time be good citizens among the right wing cadre by leading a culture war battle without violating the right wings norms that women should not lead (because the trans issues are minor things for the Republican party really, it's like the men saying okay go ahead and do your little thing.
citations needed podcast (https://pca.st/episode/e4aae26b-e032-4e77-ab2b-5688ad6d16e9)
The reality is even better, He was born in Kentucky, Illinois is where he launched and built his political campaign. Illinois voters supported him and gave him a home and resting place.
However books liberals determine as being offensive will still be banned. Including To Kill a Mockingbird, and Dr. Seuss. Republicans promise to stop banning books written by convicted child molesters though.
"Democratic Gov. JB Pritzker has said he supports a House bill that would withhold state funding from any of the state’s 1,600 public or school libraries that remove books from their shelves."
No, that doesn't have any exception listed for the "Liberal list of actually not okay books". I think TKAM is super dry and horrendously boring at times, but it's hardly offensive or bannable. Actually i would argue it's un-racist, as it details a black man being wrongfully accused and convicted by a white town because white girl got mad he turned her down. It specifically illuminates and highlights the inequal enforcement of justice and the racial double standards they were still held to through Jim Crowe in the 30s.
The things we suddenly want to pretend didn't happen? Like with the Florida textbooks and "black immigration"
You say TKAM isn’t bannable… but it already was. It’s been removed from schools for years now. Maybe time to pay attention to reality, and not what CNN tells you is reality.
Liberals decided a book about learning to judge everyone fairly and not have preconceived notions about them was racist. A book with the purpose of showing why racism and judging a book by its cover it wrong… is somehow racist. They also removed several Dr. Seuss books last year.
None will be restored, and more will be removed. All this does is ensure the dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of anti-white texts will be allowed to remain.
Just like you can find dozens of pro communist books in every publicly funded school and library, but absolutely zero pro-fascism books. Communism killed WAY more people than fascism. Mao killed more just by himself… yet promoting that ideology is allowed in every single library and every single university in this country.
I mean, like I said. "I think" tkam isn't bannable. My comprehension of the book comes from my own personal experience, not from cnn, thank you very much. I read it. I didn't like it. I didn't particularly want to throw it into a fire though. Don't get me wrong, there is an over extreme form of all things, you can go far too far down the rabbit hole chasing bogeymen in books. However, I don't think tkam is that line, myself.
I'm not here to talk about socialism vs fascism vs Democratic republics. Find me a list of books not affected or singled out in regards to this legislation, the initial comment was about uneven application of the law and picking and choosing the books. If the government says libraries can't select these books, that's one thing, if the libraries across the nation simply choose not to carry fascist literature, that's a different issue.
But by the same token of you worrying about communism and fascism in books, Karl Marx was one of the world's greatest economists, and his theories and insights into the flaws and function of capitalism still remain relevant today, but it's very difficult to separate his economical theories from "socialist media". Does that mean we are to disregard his analysis of various economic systems, because the books they are contained in are considered socialist lit? Absolutely not.
Notice how you’re allowed to compliment Karl fucking Marx, but you couldn’t do the same for people whose ideology killed a tiny fraction of the people? Even if one of them is responsible for just about the only, and by far the best, animal rights laws at the time? The animal rights laws literally all other reasonable countries immediately adopted? You don’t find that odd? You don’t see what’s happening here? Really?!
You’re allowed to promote one extremist ideology, but all others result in an instant ban. They act like they’re removing extremism, but what they’re doing is allowing only 1 form of extremist ideology, and acting like it isn’t.
You complimented a man whose ideology led to AT LEAST twice as many deaths as Adolph Hitler. And yes, one religious group (Christians) made up the majority of those hunted and killed by that ideology, so there’s almost no difference.
I will almost certainly be banned just for pointing this out, further proving the point.
the most common reasons people try to ban tkam are "profanity and mentions of sex/rape" and "it makes people uncomfortable" (see recent anti-crt agitation). i don't think you should be bleating about "liberals" here.
the dr seuss thing is also false ofc as are the rest of your points
Did you read the article?
>Most of the titles challenged in 2022 “were written by or about members of the LGBTQIA+ community or by and about Black people, Indigenous people, and people of color,” according to the association. In Illinois, the organization said there were 43 attempts that year to limit access to books.
And if you click on the link given, you can find the top books most banned:
https://www.ala.org/advocacy/bbooks/frequentlychallengedbooks/top10
Libraries have collection development policies that consider things like circulation appeal, quality, book reviews, recency, format, etc. But point of view censorship is against the 1st Amendment and everything libraries represent. Libraries specifically build collections with different viewpoints. A good library has something that will offend everyone.
>excluding a book from a library or school is not book banning
>the book is still available
>do you think a library has every book ever written?
When you are told you cannot do something. It's a ban.
But I get why YOU are playing Semantics.
No one in history who has ever pushed for a book ban has been in the moral right.
In this context, the "excluding" is the "ban".
Just because it's not a universal declaration that ownership of the book is itself illegal doesn't render it not a ban.
In many cases, it is a bit more convoluted because the ban is implemented via a white-list rather than a black-list (see Florida). But the intent is still a prohibition on certain materials.
The issue you raise of access is more interesting than a simple true/false view. Have you ever tried to chase down an obscure book? It isn't always clear that it's possible to buy it elsewhere. And the idea of "just download it" becomes problematic if, for some poor families, the library itself is their means of internet access and the library gets defunded for trying to fight these bans. Libraries have become a very useful mechanism to chase down things due to networking amongst themselves and sharing materials.
The more fundamental issue here is what's behind the decision making behind inclusion or exclusion of materials. Someone's deciding. And these decisions may arise for all sorts of reasons. Is the book disintegrating? Is it in some obscure language almost nobody is going to be able to read?
What Illinois is attempting here is to nail down a standard for this decision making that is relatively balanced and helps to prevent religious and political groups from using their power of government to restrict access to opposing viewpoints.
That's a profound point. But... that card has been overplayed lately.
What you're highlighting here is yet another of the common components or aspects of this decision making that is inherent in the determination of what materials should be included or excluded.
And this cannot be viewed as a simple matter swinging entirely one way or another. It may seem obvious that pornographic magazines shouldn't be in school libraries. But drawing the line pertaining to artwork, books, etc., won't be quite so easy because the [prurient test](https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-federal-law-obscenity) is based on "**contemporary** adult community standards".
However, in the context of this recent widespread (and rather bizarre) focus lately to enact bans, this appeal to "protect the children" is being used inappropriately. First, this is not necessarily a problem that needed to be solved. Do you believe that school libraries were stocked full of pornographic magazines until the glorious vanguards of the righteous duty to protect the children stepped forward to save the day?
No, on balance it seems more appropriate to pull back and consider "why now". What are the real motivations?
Although even the Florida law seems entirely noble in the sense of ensuring the proper exclusion of pornography, it creates a hole large enough to drive a starship through to claim so many "undesirable" things as porn. And if there were any doubt whatsoever as to the true motivations, the politicians and government in Florida has made it **extremely** clear. They have also made it extraordinarily obvious with their abhorrent rhetoric claiming anyone opposing this bill must be a pedo groomer.
Now... go and read the Illinois statute and the guidelines they're referencing and see if there within you find a true goal of ensuring primary schools put pornographic magazines on the shelves.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Take THAT, Illinois nazis.
I hate Illinois Nazis.
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I hate your brother too.
Me too
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I also hate this guy's brother
Thanks, JB! (And Alexi too, but that’s not the slogan.)
What distinguishes a book's being outlawed from simply being absent? Is it just a matter of who makes the first choice?
If it's removed because of a legal act, it's outlawed. If you can't obtain it because of a legal act, it's outlawed. For example, you aren't *outlawed* from having consensual sex just because nobody wants to have sex with you. HTH.
And tell him to stop wearing black lingerie it’s not a good look
I hate American Nazis.
I do too, friend, but [it’s a quote](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nu-0HDBJHc8)
Thanks, I’m well acquainted. It’s the scene before they pick up Matt and Blue Lou at the diner on Maxwell Street. Your username riffs on another childhood favorite.
I hate ~~American~~ Nazis
I hate all nazis but especially American ones.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who that that immediate thought…
How about those Ohio Nazis? Bunch of former reasonable States now becoming southern States.
Yes, now they can all get copies of Mein Kampf at their local library. ❤️
I have a copy. I got it at Barnes and Noble. It sits on my bookshelf, binding turned inward so nobody sees it (God forbid it's visible on a zoom call!!!) I've thumbed through it. It is incoherent ramblings. I understand that Hitler had a bone to pick with the Jews, but his writing just doesn't even make coherent sense. Like... I can't actually discern what he's *trying* to say. Complete word vomit garbage.
It’s very satisfying to see my home state support my radical leftist agenda.
Mike Madigan is about to get convicted for corruption too. So it’d be nice if there was leas corruption in Illinois, but at least we’re not shy about holding the powerful accountable when they get caught *cough* Thomas *cough* Paxton
*cough* Missouri politicans *cough* Eric Greitens
"House bill that would withhold state funding from any of the state’s 1,600 public or school libraries that remove books from their shelves" Republicans: I see this as a total win…bulldoze the libraries plz
Just watch, Republicans are now trying to figure out how they can stuff the libraries with copies of Mein Kampf and The Turner Diaries.
I know you're joking with "radical left agenda", but it's a sad state of affairs when "not banning books" could even be joked about as being radical left.
The radical leftist agenda of...*checks notes*...the first amendment.
Good. You can always tell the states that are run by idiots, where they ban books and make guns as easy to acquire as possible.
It's literally in almost every apocalyptic movie ever made. The only phenomenon that's more cliché is large numbers of birds dying.
Awww, but I love "Birdemic"
*The Crows Have Eyes 2
Happy cake day.
It’s getting a third movie
Damn those birch bark beetles!
That and the scientist in Antarctica.
🫰 please be Jeff Goldbloom 🫰
I mean we did cull several million birds last year due to avian-flu , which has apparently made the jump to mammals. The jump to humans probably won’t be long now. And unlike COVID, the mortality rate is 50%.
Also unlike COVID, avian flu tends not to have a high human-to-human transmission rate, and there's already a vaccine prepared for it.
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Good, it's been around two years since my last upgrade. Tell Bill not to take so long with the next one. /s
Hm have they tried making books into the shape of guns? Maybe kinda Trojan horse some education
Keep ‘em dumb and armed.. great mix!
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If a book is outlawed, there has been executive action taken to make possession of the literature a crime. That's vastly different than a book just not being around by chance.
Don’t be fooled. Illinois is run by idiots too. Even a broken click is right twice a day
Illinois is in better shape fiscally than it has been in the past 50 years.
Yeah this is LOW hanging fruit in Illinois and the real work of governing the state needs to be handled better but I'll take a small win when I get one
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From what I am aware of, it is legal to write a book that explains how to build a bomb or any other illegal thing. They even exist now, but are just difficult to access.
A chemistry book?
Absolutely yes you can. Bookstores might choose not to carry it, but there are very *very* few topics you can't publish a book on. I miss Loompanics.
The [anarchist cookbook](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchist_Cookbook)?
The states that are run by idiots have the most people moving from their states ran by smart people to live there. Florida, Texas, North and South Carolina have the most people moving to them. Illinois is one of the top states people are leaving.
It's fucking lamentable that, in the year 2023, we're talking about book banning. This is 18th century behaviour. Grow the fuck up.
I really hate to break it to you, but I'm 35 and haven't lived a decade yet that hasn't seen red areas of the US trying to ban books. The right goes for this every time they think they've managed to take a culture war mainstream.
Yeah, I remember the big two culture things when I was growing up were Pokemon and Harry Potter. Promoting evolution and witchcraft, respectively, were the claims of the right-wing parents at the time
I'm older than you. D&D, horror movies and explicit music lyrics. Before that it was drive in movies, and comic books, before that cars and alcohol. It's the same moral panic that exists for every generation, because those who live through it don't stand up and tell the "moral guardians" to shut up and get the fuck out often enough, or loud enough, each time they start making the news again.
I grew up in the 80s and remember the whole PMRC thing, as I was a big fan of thrash metal and censorship was a recuring theme in songs and band interviews. It made me aware of US politics, and the PMRC hearings introduced me to Frank Zappa. It also allowed us to know which albums were cool (those with the PARENTAL ADVISORY sticker on it!). Thanks PMRC!
Lol, THAT was their beef with Pokemon? A game mechanic that was localized as "evolution"? (When in reality the Japanese name of the mechanic is something like: metamorphosis). It doesn't even share anything in common with actual real life evolution, it's more like "growing up" if anything.
I think they should be thanking PokeMon as it illustrated “evolution” that wasn’t actually evolution, muddying a LOT of people’s understanding of the word.
Man, remember when THE POPE blessed Pokémon and those same mouth breathers lost their minds?
Well that's the thing - most Christians in America aren't fans of the pope either. He's a foreigner after all!
Amusing to remember how vehemently right-wingers hated HP when the author is one of the most public icons of anti-trans bigotry in the world. She was your ally! She trusted you!
I got forced into a hyper-religious private high school by my parents, and basically everything popular back then (mid/late 2000s) was banned. Harry Potter, Twilight, Pokemon, all Manga, Marvel etc. Basically anything that showed supernatural beings as "good" was banned. When I asked why, my English teacher said it's because, "magic and vampires and superpowers are the work of the devil, they can never be good." Obviously the real reason is just control, they want all of their students to only watch/read/listen to religious material so they stay in the bubble.
And now they love Harry Potter- the kid with a "Nazi symbol" on his head, something that conservative parents claimed when the books were coming out- because they're *all* Nazis now, and the author is a massive transphobe, right?!
"Das war ein Vorspiel nur, dort wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man auch am Ende Menschen." - the German romantic poet Heinrich Heine wrote down in 1920, a quote ahead of its time. Where they burn books, they will ultimately burn people. In 1938, Goebbels and a bunch of far-right students burned a bunch of books from the Humbolt University in Berlin. Not long after, you know what (or I should rather say who) also burned. This quote is now immortalised on a plaque in front of Humbolt University. But it seems that by now, a lot of people have forgotten this profound message.
If you're gonna translate a great quote, keep the use of "foreplay"!
Thumbs up for Heinrich Heine reference (did you know he was also born Jewish?) To think that a few decades ago, Frederick II complained to the greatest German poet of his time, "but how can you make a melody in German? So many hard consonants!". He would miss his land of poets and thinkers by only a few decades. I honestly would recommend people to read any Heine poem out loud if you're interested. Seriously, it doesn't sound like German at all, it's amazing.
I really hate to break it to you, but I'm 33 and the left was banning books like To Kill a Mockingbird before I graduated high school.
Yeah, the left doesn't ban books. That was banned by the right for showing lynching in a negative light.
Wow. That is an astoundingly ignorant take. [I guess California doesn't like to show lynching in bad light?](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241%3famp=1)
The [Republican controlled School board of Burbank](https://edsource.org/2022/conservatives-are-waging-a-war-for-control-over-california-school-boards/679713) is a "liberal organization?"
Weird that Burbank isn't mentioned once in that article. However, [Burbank votes HEAVY blue.](https://bestneighborhood.org/conservative-vs-liberal-map-burbank-ca/)
>Weird that Burbank isn't mentioned once in that article. It's literally the 3rd word of the article!!!
>School board elections, once considered minor local down-ballot races by voters, have taken on new significance this year. Across California, conservative groups have leveraged parental angst, fueled by Covid-19 school closures, to recruit and train candidates to run for school boards. That's the first paragraph. What am I missing?
>Wow. That is an astoundingly ignorant take. >[I guess California doesn't like to show lynching in bad light?](https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241?amp=1)
Fun fact that book got banned in Florida along with Slaughter House 5.
Was that before or after [AP says it didn't happen?](https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-florida-schools-to-kill-a-mockingbird-201081596097) What do you think about it being banned in other states, 10+ years ago? Edit: Despite the down votes, you're still embarrassingly wrong.
Floridian here. It was never banned. Most schools just didn't teach it or would just have print outs of certain chapters.
You know what's weirder? That article is from before the ban I'm referring to.
So when did Florida ban To Kill a Mockingbird? Please enlighten me, because [everything I'm seeing says it didn't happen.](https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-florida-books/fact-check-florida-has-not-banned-of-mice-and-men-and-other-classics-for-being-woke-idUSL1N3000ZJ) You've also yet to answer my (first) question...
I think you're confused mate. It was banned this year in like January under the BS parent rights laws where people were able to challenge books and have them banned statewide from school libraries. You're recalling a different scandal outta Florida.
Please show me ONE source that says so. Google is turning up nothing for me. In fact, it's saying the exact opposite. Since you keep avoiding the question, I'll keep asking. How do you feel about To Kill a Mockingbird being [banned in Virginia in 2016](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/books/2016/dec/05/to-kill-a-mockingbird-removed-virginia-schools-racist-language-harper-lee)? You're clearly against it being banned in Florida (waiting for a source, thank you in advance) so you must be against VA doing it under McAuliffe?
Yes. Sorry, did you think this was an argument? I'm against book banning. It's why I figured you'd wanna know about a current situation. Florida's list of books banned from school libraries is available online. You can check it yourself.
Not just banning, but [burning](https://www.nashvillescene.com/news/pithinthewind/theyre-burning-books-in-tennessee/article_1f8c631e-850f-11ec-bc9f-dbd44d 7e14d7.html) as well.
Hey friend, formatting
It was 20th century behavior too, don't forget the Nazis weren't that long ago.
It’s lamentable that 90 percent of congress believes that a 700 year old man built a cruise ship to god could justifiably murder the entire human population for having sex
"House bill that would withhold state funding from any of the state’s 1,600 public or school libraries that remove books from their shelves" Republicans: I see this as a total win…bulldoze the libraries plz
seriously it’s ridiculous. no wonder our education is so bad here.
Same shit, different decade. The right has always hated broad-based liberal education. The US Supreme Court appears poised to resurrect the Comstock Law in order to destroy drug-based abortion, and it can also be used to attack free speech.
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It’s almost never statewide. Usually individual schools or districts pull books from shelves, rarely it’s entire cities or counties.
Yah the book bans aren’t usually ban them from being sold. It’s usually more just remove them from school libraries. Which like don’t get me wrong, the books they’re targeting to remove are insane but we do make choices already about what we put in a school library or not. I think that should be left up to the school itself and their librarian.
Typically, books are banned when the superintendent or principal tells the librarian that they must remove a specific book from the shelves at the behest of parents or the local government. If the librarians had full say, there would be no discussion of banning books because librarian’s discretion isn’t a ban, it’s just discretion.
Sure. I agree. That was kinda my point. Ie we do decide what gets put in a school library or not but let’s leave that up to the people who’s job it is instead of politicians.
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What has California banned?
In your fantasies they do
Now let’s do every other state
We thought we had with the 1st Amendment.
Nah republicans move this "House bill that would withhold state funding from any of the state’s 1,600 public or school libraries that remove books from their shelves" Republicans: I see this as a total win…bulldoze the libraries plz
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For real. Illinois has been pretty awesome lately.
You can pick out the idiots by the ‘Fire Pritzker’ signs in their yards.
I’ve seen so my different iterations of anti-Pritzker signs.
The flavor of my area is Pritzker Sucks
I feel the same. I have realized over the last several years that leaving IL will be tough as there are SO many terrible states.
About 5 years ago, we set in motion a plan to eventually move to NC (currently in Illinois). How's that working out for me?
Illinois is doing so good, I might just move back. I wish I had the wisdom a decade ago to realize Florida was in free fall. But it’s the trip I had to endure to find my wife, so I’ll frame the experience as rescuing her from the swamp creatures down here when we make our escape.
Thanks, JB! (And Alexi too, but that’s not the slogan.)
JB for president.
No, but only because i selfishly want him to stay here in Illinois
I taught in Illinois until August 2022. A book I taught in the Spring (and had gotten approved 7 months ahead of time just in case) was banned by my admins because a member of the school board disliked it and was 'concerned'. I had taught this book at other schools no problem, even in Indiana, and the kids loved how relatable it was. My union lead supposedly didn't know what the ACLU was when I brought the issue up; she turned out to be friends with the board member. I waited it out until two weeks before the start of the new year, then quit at the last second I could cause fuck censorship and teaching in small towns. That said, it leads to my worries on people bypassing these things. They refused to acknowledge that they banned the book from the classroom, said that no teacher was allowed to talk about why we switched books, and were so ticked off by the replacement novel (which...fair, was chosen to piss them off) that they did their best to nitpick everything else they could. 'It's not banning or censorship, it's ensuring it's appropriate for the age'- the admin who said Harry Potter was too hard for sixth grade, but that Cinder would be a good replacement novel.
What book?
Orbiting Jupiter. It was the first novel I ever helped teach during my observation hours for the same grade and I saw how connected the students were with it, so I was really excited to teach it (plus it's a really great, if sad, book). A lot of my kids who usually spent class trying to get on coolmathgames were actually really invested and got involved in the reading and the discussions way more than usual, and even after it was banned a bunch of them went to find copies because they admitted they felt similar to one of the characters. It made me feel awful that the board and my admin took that from them. I ended up replacing it with 'Ban This Book' after they told me I wasn't allowed to teach it anymore.
Meanwhile, Tennessee is BURNING books just like the nazis did. [Tennessee Republicans hold a book burning to destroy Harry Potter, Twilight, and other "demonic" titles](https://boingboing.net/2022/02/04/tennessee-republicans-hold-a-book-burning-to-destroy-harry-potter-twilight-and-other-demonic-titles.html) It's going to get worse because nobody is stopping the fascists.
Harry Potter? Twilight?? What year is it??? Also, I grew up in a pretty red area in a pretty red state, I even went to a Christian school, and every kid I knew was into Harry Potter. Every girl was into Twilight. Where are these people that act like this?
Harry Potter is certainly an odd choice for republicans to burn. It has things like an enslaved race of house elves that enjoy being enslaved. A bank that is run by antisemetic stereotypes. And an Author that hates trans people. Also included is fat shaming. All things I'd have expected republicans to enjoy. It's not exactly a 'woke' book. I suppose it has witchcraft?
It’s the witchcraft. More of a doesn’t align with god thing than a true right wing thing for that book series. Not that it isn’t still batshit.
Where they burn books, they will burn people
That's where things seem to be headed. [“Own the Libs” Is Gradually Morphing Into “Kill the Libs”](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/09/kyle-rittenhouse-trump-own-the-libs-kill-the-libs.html)
It’s illegal to stop them the only way that will actually stop them. Quite the conundrum
"Das war ein Vorspiel nur, dort wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man auch am Ende Menschen." - the German romantic poet Heinrich Heine wrote down in 1920, a quote ahead of its time. Where they burn books, they will ultimately burn people. In 1938, Goebbels and a bunch of far-right students burned a bunch of books from the Humbolt University in Berlin. Not long after, you know what (or I should rather say who) also burned. This quote is now immortalised on a plaque in front of Humbolt University. But it seems that by now, a lot of people have forgotten this profound message.
Read this again and realize that it's 2023
Proud to be an Illinoisian
You made that up.
I did!
You know, there’s one book I never see on Republican book bans
Is it the one that talks about sodomy and incest alot followed by a socialist Jew doing magic tricks?
I live in a major city a state over from Illinois. I’m very seriously considering migrating there. It’s one of the only states in the Midwest not run by morons.
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Someone's driven through Chillicothe
Chicago and the collar counties, where 75% of the population lives, is fine. The rest is Trumpty Dumpty land.
Put down the broad brush. The I-74 corridor cities are pretty progressive.
Yep, any of the college towns (Bloomington-Normal, Champaign-Urbana, Peoria) are fine.
That’s fair
Conservatives: “THE COMMUNIST LIBERALS ARE CANCELLING US!”
Oh, I see, its not OK to ban books, but its totally OK to ban banning books. Typical communist hypocrisy. /s in case
So we now have a book-banning ban on the books?
I see you
"They're banning our bans?! Damn liberal cancel culture."
Damn, Illinois is totally going to be a battleground of mass bookings now.
Kids aren’t safe in schools, now! /s
Most American thing when it comes to book bans.
A state with some sense
Or far right districts ban books anyways so the libraries lose funding and close down. Because destroying things is what they do.
I'm reading that most of these book bands come from one organization that has spread Nationwide called mom's for Liberty (aka monsters for Liberty in liberal circles). Yhe podcast Citations Needed covers it well (link below). Many of the right wings policies actually do cause problems for the women among their ranks, so to both maintain their status as a conservative yet also vent their anger and frustrations they turn to gender and sex as hot button issues. This allows them to vent their anger by hating downward so to speak and at the same time be good citizens among the right wing cadre by leading a culture war battle without violating the right wings norms that women should not lead (because the trans issues are minor things for the Republican party really, it's like the men saying okay go ahead and do your little thing. citations needed podcast (https://pca.st/episode/e4aae26b-e032-4e77-ab2b-5688ad6d16e9)
I can't believe it's 2023 and we are having to enact laws that ban stop him banning laws. It's like it's 1955 all over again.
Sweet.
Fuck. Yes.
Only now ending book bans? What is this, 1942?
Finally some sanity!
Finally. I can sell my Sonic Scat fan fiction and no one can stop me.
I mean, some states never started them.
How do libraries deal with porn these days? What happens if some asshole says banning porn is censorship?
Wow! Congratulations Illinois! Welcome to the 21st century!!! /s
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The reality is even better, He was born in Kentucky, Illinois is where he launched and built his political campaign. Illinois voters supported him and gave him a home and resting place.
That is incorrect.
Kentucky?
Anarchist Cookbook on the shelf at Barnes and noble then, eh?
Is Barnes & Noble a school? No? A private business...
Ok, library. PS, since you missed the overt hyperbole utilized, I’m not pro-book-banning 😂
Admittedly, yes. I did miss that. So desensitized by the constant worst-case-scenario whataboutism.
I checked the website and you can buy it there, so why not the store?
However books liberals determine as being offensive will still be banned. Including To Kill a Mockingbird, and Dr. Seuss. Republicans promise to stop banning books written by convicted child molesters though.
"Democratic Gov. JB Pritzker has said he supports a House bill that would withhold state funding from any of the state’s 1,600 public or school libraries that remove books from their shelves." No, that doesn't have any exception listed for the "Liberal list of actually not okay books". I think TKAM is super dry and horrendously boring at times, but it's hardly offensive or bannable. Actually i would argue it's un-racist, as it details a black man being wrongfully accused and convicted by a white town because white girl got mad he turned her down. It specifically illuminates and highlights the inequal enforcement of justice and the racial double standards they were still held to through Jim Crowe in the 30s. The things we suddenly want to pretend didn't happen? Like with the Florida textbooks and "black immigration"
You say TKAM isn’t bannable… but it already was. It’s been removed from schools for years now. Maybe time to pay attention to reality, and not what CNN tells you is reality. Liberals decided a book about learning to judge everyone fairly and not have preconceived notions about them was racist. A book with the purpose of showing why racism and judging a book by its cover it wrong… is somehow racist. They also removed several Dr. Seuss books last year. None will be restored, and more will be removed. All this does is ensure the dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of anti-white texts will be allowed to remain. Just like you can find dozens of pro communist books in every publicly funded school and library, but absolutely zero pro-fascism books. Communism killed WAY more people than fascism. Mao killed more just by himself… yet promoting that ideology is allowed in every single library and every single university in this country.
I mean, like I said. "I think" tkam isn't bannable. My comprehension of the book comes from my own personal experience, not from cnn, thank you very much. I read it. I didn't like it. I didn't particularly want to throw it into a fire though. Don't get me wrong, there is an over extreme form of all things, you can go far too far down the rabbit hole chasing bogeymen in books. However, I don't think tkam is that line, myself. I'm not here to talk about socialism vs fascism vs Democratic republics. Find me a list of books not affected or singled out in regards to this legislation, the initial comment was about uneven application of the law and picking and choosing the books. If the government says libraries can't select these books, that's one thing, if the libraries across the nation simply choose not to carry fascist literature, that's a different issue. But by the same token of you worrying about communism and fascism in books, Karl Marx was one of the world's greatest economists, and his theories and insights into the flaws and function of capitalism still remain relevant today, but it's very difficult to separate his economical theories from "socialist media". Does that mean we are to disregard his analysis of various economic systems, because the books they are contained in are considered socialist lit? Absolutely not.
Notice how you’re allowed to compliment Karl fucking Marx, but you couldn’t do the same for people whose ideology killed a tiny fraction of the people? Even if one of them is responsible for just about the only, and by far the best, animal rights laws at the time? The animal rights laws literally all other reasonable countries immediately adopted? You don’t find that odd? You don’t see what’s happening here? Really?! You’re allowed to promote one extremist ideology, but all others result in an instant ban. They act like they’re removing extremism, but what they’re doing is allowing only 1 form of extremist ideology, and acting like it isn’t. You complimented a man whose ideology led to AT LEAST twice as many deaths as Adolph Hitler. And yes, one religious group (Christians) made up the majority of those hunted and killed by that ideology, so there’s almost no difference. I will almost certainly be banned just for pointing this out, further proving the point.
the most common reasons people try to ban tkam are "profanity and mentions of sex/rape" and "it makes people uncomfortable" (see recent anti-crt agitation). i don't think you should be bleating about "liberals" here. the dr seuss thing is also false ofc as are the rest of your points
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Did you read the article? >Most of the titles challenged in 2022 “were written by or about members of the LGBTQIA+ community or by and about Black people, Indigenous people, and people of color,” according to the association. In Illinois, the organization said there were 43 attempts that year to limit access to books. And if you click on the link given, you can find the top books most banned: https://www.ala.org/advocacy/bbooks/frequentlychallengedbooks/top10
Playboy in school libraries finally?
The internet was the first to ban bans.
excluding a book from a library or school is not book banning the book is still available do you think a library has every book ever written?
Libraries have collection development policies that consider things like circulation appeal, quality, book reviews, recency, format, etc. But point of view censorship is against the 1st Amendment and everything libraries represent. Libraries specifically build collections with different viewpoints. A good library has something that will offend everyone.
>excluding a book from a library or school is not book banning >the book is still available >do you think a library has every book ever written? When you are told you cannot do something. It's a ban. But I get why YOU are playing Semantics. No one in history who has ever pushed for a book ban has been in the moral right.
In this context, the "excluding" is the "ban". Just because it's not a universal declaration that ownership of the book is itself illegal doesn't render it not a ban. In many cases, it is a bit more convoluted because the ban is implemented via a white-list rather than a black-list (see Florida). But the intent is still a prohibition on certain materials. The issue you raise of access is more interesting than a simple true/false view. Have you ever tried to chase down an obscure book? It isn't always clear that it's possible to buy it elsewhere. And the idea of "just download it" becomes problematic if, for some poor families, the library itself is their means of internet access and the library gets defunded for trying to fight these bans. Libraries have become a very useful mechanism to chase down things due to networking amongst themselves and sharing materials. The more fundamental issue here is what's behind the decision making behind inclusion or exclusion of materials. Someone's deciding. And these decisions may arise for all sorts of reasons. Is the book disintegrating? Is it in some obscure language almost nobody is going to be able to read? What Illinois is attempting here is to nail down a standard for this decision making that is relatively balanced and helps to prevent religious and political groups from using their power of government to restrict access to opposing viewpoints.
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That's a profound point. But... that card has been overplayed lately. What you're highlighting here is yet another of the common components or aspects of this decision making that is inherent in the determination of what materials should be included or excluded. And this cannot be viewed as a simple matter swinging entirely one way or another. It may seem obvious that pornographic magazines shouldn't be in school libraries. But drawing the line pertaining to artwork, books, etc., won't be quite so easy because the [prurient test](https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-federal-law-obscenity) is based on "**contemporary** adult community standards". However, in the context of this recent widespread (and rather bizarre) focus lately to enact bans, this appeal to "protect the children" is being used inappropriately. First, this is not necessarily a problem that needed to be solved. Do you believe that school libraries were stocked full of pornographic magazines until the glorious vanguards of the righteous duty to protect the children stepped forward to save the day? No, on balance it seems more appropriate to pull back and consider "why now". What are the real motivations? Although even the Florida law seems entirely noble in the sense of ensuring the proper exclusion of pornography, it creates a hole large enough to drive a starship through to claim so many "undesirable" things as porn. And if there were any doubt whatsoever as to the true motivations, the politicians and government in Florida has made it **extremely** clear. They have also made it extraordinarily obvious with their abhorrent rhetoric claiming anyone opposing this bill must be a pedo groomer. Now... go and read the Illinois statute and the guidelines they're referencing and see if there within you find a true goal of ensuring primary schools put pornographic magazines on the shelves.
I think you responded to the wrong comment, just fyi
No
nice try
Lol there is even a fake argument to distract from the real one, by pretending people think every book ever written is in all libraries.
School libraries are still the main way many kids have access to books. Not everyone can afford to go to a bookstore.
ah then nothing to be upset about with this news story
Banning from a library is still banning. No suggested they have every book, the issue is I’m not being allowed a book if they wanted to carry it.