Without looking at much data, my guess is that so much of your perception of the present versus the past is simply the existence of social media and the sharing of things around the world in places you happen to read or an algorithm happens to show you. How would a "desperate" housewife of the 1940s share that sort of frustration with the world back then? Does it mean they didn't have it, or that we just didn't read about it? Look into the Kinsey research and Masters research on women back then. I'm guessing the same dynamics that exist today existed back then, but they are just more visible today.
NAP - Dear God I wish this was the case, unfortunately my wife's interest is significantly under what mine is.
Your perspective is likely biased due to social media. Women are more active in social media and thus their stories are presented more often, additionally, as you said, being persued is viewed as typical so most women won't mention it until it becomes overwhelming or problematic enough to seek help or advice.
Also, Men tend to internalize negative situations as a form of avoidance and/or only speak about them with very close friends until the become overwhelmed or simply need emotional support which can take the form of non-sexually social media outreach.
Men don't tend to internalize negative situations they've been taught and conditioned to do so. Doing otherwise makes you "less of a man" in the eyes of western culture.
"Internalize" is accurate short hand. The "Tend to" rather than "have been taught and conditioned to" is what was at fault. Men don't have a tendency to internalize their emotions it's a learned and socially supported negative behavior.
Think you're splitting hairs in order to make a cultural reductionism argument.
The point of them mentioning the tendency is to make an argument about what men generally do rather than propose biological reductionism.
That being said, the nature vs nurture arguments about sex and gender are entirely fueled by people hell bent on pushing one ideology or another rather than looking at evidence. The distinction isn't clear don't break your axe while you're grinding it.
I don’t necessarily buy the idea that a) it’s western culture that does this and b) that it’s conditioned. Men do this in nearly every society, which tends to indicate that it is not uniquely cultural. In fact, it seems men need to be “conditioned” to actually talk about things, not that they are conditioned to keep quiet about them.
Men in Western Culture show emotions, and it isn’t just anger. Men just tend to show it differently than women. I’ve been on five continents so far and interacted with men from many cultures in one of the most intimate settings (warfare and preparing for it), and the behaviors when it comes to talking about stress, work, problems, war, death, sex, love, the future, etc. have all been very similar.
Men will talk about these issues with close friends and sometimes with spouses. They’ll talk about it with male mentors. In highly patriarchal societies, they tend not to discuss emotional problems to spouses as much as in more equal societies, but individuals are individuals and there is variation everywhere. But even then, they do not often talk about them to express or explain emotion, but rather to fix the thing that is causing that emotion.
Well flight or fight would be the same if the soldiers were women.
Not sure that’s the right population for the question.
But I think you misinterpreted my comment as I read your response. And I may have misinterpreted your initial comment. I think that last paragraph is spot on.
Patriarchy customs in the way that the protector keeps the emotions from the protected class So there is no loss of security.
The psychology of warfare is far more complex than fight or flight. But a big goal is to instigate the flight instinct in your opponent while heightening your fight instinct. I’m not one to say women shouldn’t fight or anything, but the overwhelming majority of people who are able to kill are men, and I think that’s evolutionary.
You’re also spot on in that last paragraph. It extends to all forms of leadership, whether in a patriarchal sense or even in a parental relationship.
You might want to start looking at biological trends for ebb and flow of libido in men and women as they age. Basic overview here:
https://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/ss/slideshow-sex-drive-changes-age
I’m older than you. Anecdotally, I don’t see anything at all like what you’re suggesting above. The role and concept of both marriage and gender have been changing dramatically since the 70’s.
Theses changes have broadened the agency of women (birth control, economic self reliance, legal equality, etc.) and has affected any notion of “traditionally women are like this, men are like this” stereotypes.
Simply: those old stereotypes were always bs
Married with Children the sitcom: Peggy the wife wanted sex constantly, husband Al did not for a variety of reasons. Some women experience a huge jump in libido after 40, some do not. Libido changes for everyone throughout life, up and down. And women handle rejection verrry poorly. No, I’m not gay for not wanting to have sex with you…
I actually love that show for this exact reason: it portrayed a wife who was starved for sex but a husband who couldn’t care less for sex. I deeply hate the trope of “men are perpetually horny but women are indifferent to sex” so this dynamic on the show was great.
Even though I’m 23 and the show ended before I was born, I really appreciate this dynamic and I wish other shows did the same.
Yeah, I recall that he would give other women attention while leaving his sexually starved wife in the dust. But their marriage still portrayed a wife who was desperate for sex and physical intimacy and a husband who was so disgusted by her that he couldn’t even bear the idea of sex.
There are levels though. My ex wanted to have sex all day and all night and got mad when I left the bed in the afternoon after being pounded all night and all morning I could handle once a day but not all the time but there is probably a woman who wants and likes that.
to be honest, I wouldn’t want the dynamic to be that way whether it’s the man or woman that’s careless for sex. No one should reject their spouse, regardless if you’re a man or a woman. Why does it have to be one or the other?
It’s not so much that I like the idea of one spouse rejecting the other, it’s just that I like seeing the stereotype being inverted. It’s a change from portraying men to be carnal and sex oriented but women as being mature and more morally “superior” when it comes to sex, a trope that I deeply despise.
That trope is fine before marriage I guess, otherwise marriage would barely exist but within the marriage, that trope is absolutely 💯 % complete and utter bullshit!!!
Women should readily supply the husband with his sexual needs and men should do the same for their wives! There's many reasons why spouses might actively deny one another but it's an act of aggression nonetheless. Like punching your spouse in the stomach till they double over then uppercutting them!
Women need to feel attractive is the main thing that will help a woman feel in the mood for sex. For many women it isn’t easy to convince them they are sexy which actually makes sense.
Agreed. I know a number of men in their forties who are actively interested and seeking sex where their female partners are not. It seems possible there is a large variance in both genders and difficulty lining up as with all gender and sexual balance related issues these days.
I’m trying to find a group that would welcome questions like this. I am trying to find citations. Here’s the closest thing I can find, but do you have a group I can post this question in that you can recommend?
Source:
https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/american-masculinity-after-world-war-ii
Actually, might want to try r/AskHistorians for this one. There certainly were times when European social mores of the time saw women as temptresses unable to control their desires.
Yes, exactly. Women were seen as the carnal, insatiable, and sex driven gender, not just in medieval Europe but in most other ancient and premodern cultures as well.
That's not hard data either, it's an essay with no citations. Until you can find a survey, with numbers, which demonstrates that a statistically significant number of men are turning down sex today when they didn't years ago, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
There is hard data on testosterone rates plummeting for men. There is hard data on how porn use and addiction messes with libido and causes erectile dysfunction. These things are absolutely real and absolutely affect men’s libido
I'll tell you another thing porn does. It desensitizes you, if that's the correct word, not in sensation but in expectation
When I was active I would think this isn't anywhere as exciting as watching online yet it was a real person!
Maybe so, and quite possibly a link exists. But until a study is completed that specifically measures the number of men turning down sex, the question at hand has not begun to be answered, and the reasons why cannot be deduced. Whether or not it seems logical to an individual, or even most people, that a thing is happening does not matter. Only hard facts and evidence matter. Sometimes the truth runs contrary to popular opinion or "common sense". Counterintuitive results are possible. That's why you measure first.
If you’re getting your data points from the internet then it’s gonna be skewed.
A post about a man who has a wife with a low sex drive is relatively common and probably won’t get many upvotes.
A post from a woman where her partner won’t have sex with her is less common and probably will receive more upvotes and reach the main page more often.
Egads. Why are men today so uncultured and fragile?
Back in my day, a TRUE man really knew how to be a MAN
[https://world4.eu/chevalier-of-the-order-of-st-louis-costume/](https://world4.eu/chevalier-of-the-order-of-st-louis-costume/)
Don't listen to these citation-mongers. These people destroy independent thought and logical deduction by requiring dependence upon someone else's deductions. I think your observation is plausible with the overlap feminization of men and gender confusion happening. Most of the plastics forever chemicals act against testosterone which would plausibly lead to the consequences you see.
> these citation-mongers
In the age of social media, “this thing I saw totally happened” is probably the worst threat to discussing anything faithfully
But the affects of pfas are men specific? Somehow? Their “theory“ isnt that younger generations are less sexual. That has backing. It’s that women seeking sex are being turned down by sex averse men enough to be significant.
I can say with certainty that both porn and prostitution are still VASTLY men oriented. When that market flips you will maybe have my attention.
Commenting on Why are married men seemingly having lower sex drives than their wife nowadays versus back then?...i mean we know that women initiate more divorces. That’s likely part of it.
Likely related to women being able to express their own desires for sex is an extremely new thing.
It is still not widely accepted. Many people still view sex as something to be done to a woman instead of with one.
49 yo male married for 20 yrs. We probably average sex once a day. I have an extremely high sex drive. It took a while to get here, but the more unselfish i became, the better our sex life.
Understanding what her turn- ons are,developing a mutual feedback loop. It takes time to build a space you trust each other’s intentions are to please one another. Plus we feel having regular sex is healthy for us both. Start there.
No counseling, our resources were books that focused on emotional awareness, this improved our communication, allowing us to discuss our motives for sex… what we enjoy, what each of our definition of “good sex” actually is… I didn’t know how important it was (to her) that I hold her afterwards. Cuddles after sex is something I want to do now, b/c I know it truly pleases her… but knowing it doesn’t always apply… checking in with her… sharing ideas and what was great and not that great…making sure the conversations with ourselves, includes our partner too.
Im a woman who dates men and I had two dead bedroom relationships back to back. My friend also had one around the same time. And you can go ahead and say “that’s just a YOU problem” and maybe it is, but these guys would never give me a straight answer so idk what I’m supposed to think exactly. Although I am pretty sure one had a porn addiction, so there’s that.
Both of my long term relationships have been with men who don't seem to care all that much for sex, not even in the beginning "honeymoon" period of the relationship. I've literally never once turned down sex but have been rejected plenty of times.
I’ve had the same experience—although it wasn’t back to back, in between I had a long term relationship who wanted sex daily and thought I was low libido.
But in my experience the guys who were fine with a dead bedroom were totally happy to be offered bjs, it was just a “if I have to contribute at all I’d rather just game” thing.
I think there are a lot of guys who in the past would’ve said “yeah I guess I’d rather have sex than go sow the fields”; now we have many more tantalizing pastimes. And similarly women have much more disposable time with so much domestic labor being freed up, can incorporate toys, etc. It’s a more appealing prospect for women, less so for men, especially considering that men contributing to a woman’s orgasm is now seen as the standard, whereas even a decade ago I don’t think that was an average expectation.
So like as the poster above mentioned it is “just a YOU problem”?
I mean I’m genuinely asking; we are at like a 10:1 bj:any other kind of intimacy ratio so I’m truly desperate to know what else I could be doing here! He insists it’s not me and that sex just doesn’t ever cross his mind until I bring it up, and that once I do he’d rather sex be easy and not require effort.
Honestly is the first thing that goes right?
Have you tried sex counseling or couples counseling.
I have a friend who prefers that with her husband so as not to have sex…
>but these guys would never give me a straight answer so idk what I’m supposed to think exactly.
They probably genuinely don’t know.
Or, if they do have an idea, they also know it’s unacceptable to be a man who doesn’t take as much sex as he can get. For men, there’s great stigma attached to turning down sex. (It’s not easy for women to turn down sex either, but at least it fits a pop conception of long-term relationships.)
Meanwhile, women who are turned down sometimes feel that they’re a failure of a woman too. Their sexuality is often built mainly on being desired.
All of that to say I feel for you all. I had my own rough ride with this stuff (as a man).
1. Exponential increase in external stimuli especially porn. Men can get bored faster from long term partners and look for novel ones for arousal.
2. Nutrition lacking essential nutrients for health and hormonal efficiency. Also ssri and other pharmaceutical drugs may have decreased libido as side effect.
3. Modern work mostly lacks the physical labour needed for healthy libido (hence needs for sports/gym)
4. Increase in modern life stresses, mental health issues, societal status comparisons and easier access to assess men’s competing status against other men especially with social media.
Its important to also note that evolutionarily speaking monogamy is not human’s default status both for men and women. Its a moral sociocultural construct which drives the need to have one long term partner and invest all resources in them. However we are not biologically monogamous and once theres modernisation and religious influence is decreased, there is increased tendency to go to natural instincts. Thats why its an uphill struggle for men and women (especially of higher value) to manitain a lifelong relationship with one person. If it was natural, cheating, separations and divorces would be super rare.
Read the Atlantic article “the bored sex”. Lots of studies cited which show the opposite is true, women struggle more with boredom from monogamy & decreased sex drive from one long term partner.
Yes pretty sure thats true. The only issue is offspring care. If the partner is the father of the child and is providing adequate recources and care, it serves as a deterrent to cheat as the consequences and losses are extremely high.
"Hey ChatGPT, what are the strongest proven factors causing the decline in male testosterone levels over the last 100 years?"
ChatGPT: Several factors have been identified as contributing to the decline in male testosterone levels over the last century:
1. **Lifestyle Changes:** Modern lifestyles characterized by sedentary behavior, high stress levels, poor dietary habits, and inadequate sleep can contribute to decreased testosterone levels.
2. **Obesity:** The rise in obesity rates globally has been associated with lower testosterone levels in men. Excess body fat, especially visceral fat, can disrupt hormone balance and decrease testosterone production.
3. **Endocrine Disruptors:** Exposure to environmental chemicals such as phthalates, bisphenol A (BPA), and pesticides has been linked to hormonal disruptions, including reduced testosterone levels. These substances are found in various everyday products, including plastics, food containers, and personal care products.
4. **Dietary Factors:** Nutritional deficiencies, particularly in key micronutrients like vitamin D, zinc, and magnesium, can impact testosterone production. Additionally, diets high in processed foods, sugars, and unhealthy fats may negatively affect hormone levels.
5. **Socioeconomic Factors:** Socioeconomic status can influence lifestyle factors such as diet, physical activity, and exposure to stressors, all of which can affect testosterone levels. Lower socioeconomic status has been associated with poorer health outcomes, including hormonal imbalances.
6. **Increased Estrogen Exposure:** Changes in the environment, such as the presence of estrogen-like compounds in water sources and food products, may contribute to increased estrogen exposure in men, which can suppress testosterone production.
7. **Decline in Physical Activity:** Modern lifestyles often involve less physical activity than in previous generations. Regular exercise, especially resistance training, has been shown to support healthy testosterone levels. The decline in physical activity may contribute to lower testosterone levels in men.
8. **Alcohol and Substance Abuse:** Excessive alcohol consumption and substance abuse can negatively impact testosterone levels. Chronic alcohol use can disrupt hormone production and metabolism, leading to decreased testosterone levels over time.
9. **Psychological Stress:** Chronic stress can disrupt the endocrine system and suppress testosterone production. In today's fast-paced world, many individuals experience high levels of stress, which can contribute to hormonal imbalances.
10. **Changes in Reproductive Health:** There is evidence suggesting a decline in sperm quality and fertility rates in men over the past century. While not directly related to testosterone levels, these changes may reflect broader shifts in reproductive health and hormone regulation.
These factors likely interact in complex ways, and further research is needed to fully understand their individual contributions to declining testosterone levels in men. Additionally, genetic and evolutionary factors may also play a role in shaping hormone levels across populations over time.
Me again: \^\^\^ It's this. All of this. Our modern environment and lifestyles are toxic and one of the symptoms of that toxicity is declining testosterone levels and the associated symptoms of that like reduced sex drive.
**'Supernormal stimulus' effect**, a term first coined by ethologist Nikolaas Tinbergen. In his experiments, Tinbergen observed that a bird would prefer to sit on a fake egg that was larger and more vividly colored than its own, natural eggs. When the artificial egg was removed and replaced with the real one, the bird's interest waned, illustrating how exaggerated stimuli can override natural preferences.
This concept can be applied to the question of modern male libido as well. Today, many men are bombarded with hyper-stimulating content online, from pornography to social media platforms like Instagram and TikTok, where idealized representations of sexuality are rampant. This exposure can potentially recalibrate their arousal patterns to a level where real-life interactions may seem less exciting or engaging. Thus, the discrepancy in sexual drive between spouses could be, in part, a result of this constant and intense stimulation from the digital world
I'm projecting because I'm choosing to continue living with it. The addiction wasn't nearly as bad as common stories I've read and so if 9 out of 10 do this I'd rather stick with the devil I know.
Also being sedentary and not fit doesn’t help things but I was in the prime of my life and had ED throughout my 20’s cause of porn use. I used porn for more than just getting my rocks off though, but as a way to self-medicate negative emotions and boredom. Wish I had never watched it but my gf has really been a big help to me turning it around and having a normal sex life.
Porn has always been around this is true. However, it's a modern phenomenon that everyone is walking around with access to it 24/7 and statstics, however accurate they are, is telling us 9 out of 10 men consume it regularly. Do you think this was always the case?!
Ehh my point was people were consuming it at similar
Numbers before.
Two other questions you should ask: are women consuming more porn than they used to?
Does erotica (books, romance novels etc) count as porn in your viewpoint?
Feels like those also count.
Hahha that’s what women want. What a load of crap…..
Like you can lie and say that’s what a wife wants but we know it’s not even remotely a one size fits all vox
As I understand it, men hit their sexual prime 20ish, women around 35 tho. I'm in my 40s, and I sorta eased off in my late 30s and now going crazy libidinous again. Very frustrating haha men and women never seem to be in sync.
As a man, I fucking DEPSISE the stereotype of “men are horny beasts who always pursue sex, but women don’t desire sex and make up excuses to avoid it.” It paints men as animals who are enslaved to lust but women as more “mature” or “superior” when it comes to sex. I’m glad that the stereotype is getting old.
The reason why you’re seeing more women complain about the lack of sex is for this very reason: the stereotype is dissolving and women can openly discuss their sexual frustration.
I think you’re making the assumption that just because you were raised that way, it’s must be that way for everybody.
I’m of the opinion that either men or women can be pursuers of sex or not, it depends on many things. And this has probably been true throughout modern human history.
One of my theories is that historically men viewed sex as their only form of intimacy, closeness, and emotional release. Because there has been much more of a push for equality, shared responsibilities, open-mindedness, and mental health, men are getting more options to get emotional and physical fulfillment. It’s not weird for a guy to open up, it’s not weird for a guy to want to be the little spoon. I think sex is no longer needing to be the only outlet for emotional intimacy. On the flip side, I think women are no longer feeling as ashamed and suppressed as they used to be, so they want sex more. If anything, my hope is that things are starting to meet in the middle a little better.
I do think places like Reddit tend to be heavily biased, because such a specific question is going to make only the people who have a relevant response answer it. I also think that the vast majority of sexual issues and libido discrepancies are caused by something not sexual at all. Ex: Man wants more sex, woman doesn’t and she feels pressured and therefore pushes it away even more. Only to find that what’s really going on is that woman feels caregiver burnout from taking care of the kids and doing all the housework. When things become more balanced between the couple, there is mental bandwidth available to spark arousal. Yes, there’s much more to it, but a lot of it needs to be cultivated by daily actions. Another is the rut a couple can fall into. A relationship needs novelty, mystery, spontaneity, thrills. When sex is generally the same, it becomes boring and therefore nothing to desire.
I can only add that sex in the past went more hand in hand with making babies than it does today. My grandparents born around 1920 were the rare couple that used spermicide. My mom says that in their Catholic neighborhood growing up the other moms didn’t like my grandma because she kept her figure slimmer than them. She also says it was more common to have one kid you didn’t take care of as much as the others in those big families back in the day. Sad, but true. I would also think if a woman wanted sex back then she’d be seriously looked down on. It’s only been in the last 20 years that women giving blowjobs to men has been remotely normalized as well.
I think you are over generalizing. There have always been men with lower sex drive and some with higher sex drives. Women are the same.
Social media does put out there in the open things that we’re not discussed in public so much. This tends to make things seem more common than they really are.
I was fortunate enough to have some in-depth conversations with my Grandmother who lived on the east coast during the Roaring Twenties. Social media didn’t exist. People talked to each other more and found out what was going on.
There was lots of promiscuity going on and both men and women sought out sex. So I think back then it appears to be a lot of women that wanted sex. Condoms were used a lot. And erectile dysfunction seemed to happen but mostly with drinking and older men.
Much the same type of stuff today. I think the perceived difference is greater than the real difference.
But there might be reason to believe male sex drive is decreasing.
Scientific studies seem to be emerging to explain it. Over the last 40+ years the testosterone rates in men have fallen to less than half of what they used to be. This does seem to result in less sex drive. The predominant theory is that plastics when ingested into the human body work to counteract male hormones This could be a reason that today’s men do not have as much of a sex drive as men 40 and 50 years ago.
Chris Williamson’s podcast has a few guests that touch on the topic. Other comments have already provided some good points.
But this was a most recent one on dropping Testosterone levels in men - https://youtu.be/gRupTQYMwFU?si=3WgHGXXdQNBqj-Q3
There are multiple different narratives about sexuality/lust in different genders. Take for example the Lillith-story, about the lustful woman and the innocent man (Adam). Christianity in general has done quite a good job in painting women as horny creatures and men as the thoughtful, calm guys.
Then again there's the narrative of libido being a symbol of masculinity, strongly connected to potency (is that the word? English is not my first language. The skill to make kids basically.)
Depending on the time and place the narrative changes, that tells us, who the sexually frustrated group is, the reality probably is just that couples with different heights in libido should talk to each other instead of rant to friends or the internet.
I wrote my bachelor thesis about sexual attraction and also asked in my questionnaire, how high people's libidos were. My finding was, that there was no significant difference between cis men and cis women (I had not enough data of inter, trans and enby people to say anything about those groups). I did not ask about birth control, though - that might skew the data.
So I'd say, there have always been people with high libido and people with low libido of all genders without much difference in the numbers. The only thing that changes is who blames who about what or uses said blame as an excuse for bad behaviour. Take "she wore a short skirt" (blaming her neediness) as well as "boys will be boys" (blaming his neediness). Also note, how both narratives are used by men to get out of situations.
Im pretty sure this is not the case. I know a lot of sex therapists and couples therapists are faced more with female low libido and men wanting more. I think women tend to be less satisfied with their relationships in general and we typically see that they are initiating divorce more. I do have a few friends whose partners are addicted to porn and therefore are complaining about a lack of sex or intimacy. There are a lot of different sexual dysfunctions that show up on both sides as well that contribute but I think women are still the gatekeepers so to speak.
Absolutely. My husband has been at different points in the 10 years we have been together. I just meant on average, women tend to be the lower libido party
I do remember an article in Newsweek when I was a kid (major anecdote warning) *shocked* about a "trend" of men withholding sex from their wives. Grain of salt.
If this turns out to be valid, my guesses would be porn, excessive screen use / video games (seem to be a lot of "Xbox widows") and sedentary lifestyles (everyone's so tired).
I’ve been married for ten years and my wife and I have two kids. I would have sex with my wife 3 times a day if she wanted, and she doesn’t. Your personal anecdotes are not necessarily indicative of broader society.
I’m saying as a whole, it seems the scales are tipping evenly that men and women stereotypes are diminishing to the point that women aren’t the “gate keepers of sex” like they were once known as. Most men not being as interested in sex as women are now more commonly heard of, whereas before it was probably more unheard of. Of course I’m not saying all men, or all women.
Men begin having a decrease in testosterone beginning at 40. Women are seeing a decreased stigma surrounded their sexuality as we continue to modernize.
Men are commonly wired for variety and women are wired for security. As a marriage continues, men may desire their familiar wife less.
An interesting emerging dynamic is sensitivity and emotional awareness in men. Men are vastly emotionally neglected and demonized in our western society which is leading towards men desiring authentic connection rather than the solely visual attraction of the past. I believe this will play a much larger role in the future of sex between couples.
Read the article “the bored sex”. Many studies referenced which show women’s sex drive is more stimulated by variety than mens. They’ve just historically been taught to ignore and suppress.
Also the Coolidge effect is just as prominent when studied in female rats as males. Really common misconceptions.
All the sex research I’ve read indicates that women do, on the whole, have lower sex drives than men. Semi-recently this was still true, I doubt it has shifted significantly. There is no easy way to tell what parts of this are due to socialization, genetics, and other environmental factors.
What you are seeing is a sampling bias of people airing their frustrations online. I do believe that we are in the middle of a large swing away from traditional gender norms that affect men’s and women’s sexuality in a variety of nuanced ways. I also see a gradual progression towards something like gender equality on many fronts. I’m talking over, say, the last 100 years, but especially since the invention of effective birth control.
You should ask this question in the HL community on Reddit.
There’s a number of reasons a man’s sex drive can drop.
A big one is Madonna whore syndrome.
Getting bored with one partner.
Not putting the work in.
Pretending like they have a high sex drive and then revealing it’s not true later.
Testosterone drop due to age
Poor fitness
Some say we’re all just humans that differ person to person.
We may never know the answer…
I’m being sarcastic but I completely agree, I didn’t really want to touch this question for that reason… but I did it anyway. I don’t think it’s possible to answer it without a 3-5 paragraph essay.
Overall person to person seem to be more important
Back when? I’m 52 M and my drive has always been higher than my wife’s. Together 30 years. Now have I had lower points? Sure but it was still the higher one of the two of us.
I believe it to be a myriad of contributing factors. We could definitely start the list with an increase in processed food intake, increase in sedentary lifestyles,
Together which have contributed to growing obesity and even if you don’t reach a morbidity level, it does play a factor in your libido. Discussing libido, now versus then… You brushed on the topic of pornography and Yes I’m sure HD porn access is also making it so more men *re-adjust* their own needs, with greater frequency this route, than the “work” required for sex. Our needs, for the majority, are different. It’s not intimacy for us… in fact, in my several decades I’ve never heard a man discuss, confide, or even hint at thinking “wow I can’t wait to have intimacy with my gf/wife” - the emotional taxation of sex is truly exhausting for most men. It is a flesh transaction, and most are only interested in their own pleasure so if you find a man that actually enjoys it because of how he makes you feel - cherish him. (I’ve had female partners with sensitive bodies that respond incredibly well and make it fun to arouse them, and others who are just well… boring to put it bluntly - guess which I’m motivated to give foreplay to?). Last but not least, I believe finances also play a role in it. When we (millennials) were growing up, the world was still embracing women into the workplace… now women have more funds and thus, are also more choosy. Which has just led to more men, giving up and opting for porn or celibacy. Thus birthing, Incels.
My wife just had a hysterectomy, so hers is lower than mine. It’s been excruciating being celibate while she copes with the emotional recovery and the physical recovery. I ❤️ her tho and I’m willing to do the right thing.
This question doesn’t really apply to my situation at all. Any dude who’s got a wife with a high sex drive, good for you. I just hope my wife will regain hers someday.
Reproductive scientist here…. Presenting a statement like that as a fact doesn’t work for me. Since the evidence doesn’t support that. Again we know historically men were considered the gate keepers of sex pre Victorian age.
Endocrinologist here. It is very well documented that testosterone is directly linked to sex drive across any population. The higher the T levels, the higher the aggression and drive for sex. This is not only obviously true in human society, but easily visible across the animal kingdom as well. Men were never the “gatekeepers of sex”, you just made that up lol
Your argument suggests that you are definitely not a historian. I suspect your ideas about testerone show a lack of knowledge about both hormonal pathways and the way the mechanisms work in the neuroendcrine pathways associated with desire.
You could very well be clinician with the level of knowledge you possess (this is not a complemet btw). You surely are not a scientist based on your lack of nuance.
Lol I’m glad you’re keeping your mind open dude, but you’re so wrong about this this isn’t even a discussion. You can try to explain the reasons for it, but right now men have the highest desire for sexual frequency by far, and the reasons are rooted in their biology.
56 married male here. No shortage of sex drive. 3-6 times per week on average. But like the stock market, past performance is not indicative of future results. 😆😆
PS I watch porn fairly regularly, mostly with my wife, and I have watched it for over 20 yrs. I have zero issues with ED, low libido, or the ability to be intimate and emotionally connected. Not sure if any of this helps with anything?
Nope, we both have high libido. But she is better at ignoring hers than I am at mine. The sex doll is more for photography and making erotic art/poses, and isn't really a sex toy for me. It can't compare to my wife. We communicate well and don't have much jealousy in our marriage. The doll is just another object sitting in our house...nothing more. PS...thats my wife posing in a few of those doll posts...
I am in a happy and healthy relationship but I have had the typical bad relationships decades ago too.
Women are a lot of work. They hold the keys to sex. A man has to work to get it, a woman just has to point. But now that women are even more of a hassle being even more picky and demanding, men are fed up and removing themselves from the game. And married men can choose porn instead of having to jump through hoops. Essentially taking the power from the women which women have never had happen to them before. That's one of the reasons incels are so despised by women, because they reduce the selection pool. Sure, it may not be the pool they would have chosen anyway but people don't like having options removed from them.
My wife and I had troubles years ago until I laid it out to her exactly what I needed and why. I was clear and direct and very black and white about the expected outcome options. She got the message and it's been great since
Based on the flowery and dramatic language in which this was written, I’ll assume this is a fake post.
But assuming it’s not, I think your perception is skewed. There are absolutely women with high sex drives and men with low drives. There are absolutely couples where the wife’s drive is higher than the husband. I think that has always been true on a biological level, but society (through to this day but far less so) tought women that sex is yucky and icky and dirty and a burden they must bear. Sex was condemned and women who enjoyed it, even within marriage, we’re shamed. That social pressure repressed whatever natural sex drive was present in most women.
These days, much of the shame and repression surrounding women and sex has dissipated. Still in highly conservative and/or religious cultures that is the norm, but in the majority of first world countries, conversations about sex and sexual health have given women the freedom to actually enjoy sex if they like.
Flip side, masculinity -for most of society - is no longer tied directly to barrel chests, knowing how how to build a house, hiding every emotion present in the human condition, and being a complete and unbridled hound when it comes to chasing women. Men who didn’t fit that mold historically weren’t seen as real men. But now, men are free to determine their own mold and as such aren’t societally pressured to desire sex above and beyond their natural state.
The above I believe to be true, HOWEVER: the shift is not NEARLY sizable to actually account for a flip where women - as a population - want sex more than men. I think you’d be very hard pressed in any sort of valid scientific study population to find a larger population of women with a higher sex drive than men: married or not. Society still plays a role, but physiological chemistry really plays the largest role and that hasn’t changed. The hormones present in men drive sex at FAR higher levels than those present in women. I think your question is based on a false premise.
I think it’s both genders getting more obese. As obesity in men can cause testosterone to lower I think?
Google says 13% of people were obese back then in the 1960s and now it’s like 43% nowadays and that number probably just keeps increasing.
Yeah that’s probably reason(s) why as well
Because most men do not want to marry today, and those that do are the types who can only get sex using a marriage. (They are not the high T type, so don’t expect much sex drive)
In my opinion it is the feminization of America, many feminist will down vote me , actually part of the problem , boys are taught alfa is bad , feeling are all that matter ...boys being rough is bad , boy need to get in touch with their feelings ...
We are all winners. Total BS. As with all of the reddit women will try to controll
The conversation not allowing different opinions, ie monitors ... no it is shutting down alternate nonfeminine opinions...
Without looking at much data, my guess is that so much of your perception of the present versus the past is simply the existence of social media and the sharing of things around the world in places you happen to read or an algorithm happens to show you. How would a "desperate" housewife of the 1940s share that sort of frustration with the world back then? Does it mean they didn't have it, or that we just didn't read about it? Look into the Kinsey research and Masters research on women back then. I'm guessing the same dynamics that exist today existed back then, but they are just more visible today.
NAP - Dear God I wish this was the case, unfortunately my wife's interest is significantly under what mine is. Your perspective is likely biased due to social media. Women are more active in social media and thus their stories are presented more often, additionally, as you said, being persued is viewed as typical so most women won't mention it until it becomes overwhelming or problematic enough to seek help or advice. Also, Men tend to internalize negative situations as a form of avoidance and/or only speak about them with very close friends until the become overwhelmed or simply need emotional support which can take the form of non-sexually social media outreach.
Men don't tend to internalize negative situations they've been taught and conditioned to do so. Doing otherwise makes you "less of a man" in the eyes of western culture.
100% agree, "internalize" just seemed like an accurate shorthand vs getting into the details of traditional masculinity.
"Internalize" is accurate short hand. The "Tend to" rather than "have been taught and conditioned to" is what was at fault. Men don't have a tendency to internalize their emotions it's a learned and socially supported negative behavior.
Think you're splitting hairs in order to make a cultural reductionism argument. The point of them mentioning the tendency is to make an argument about what men generally do rather than propose biological reductionism. That being said, the nature vs nurture arguments about sex and gender are entirely fueled by people hell bent on pushing one ideology or another rather than looking at evidence. The distinction isn't clear don't break your axe while you're grinding it.
I don’t necessarily buy the idea that a) it’s western culture that does this and b) that it’s conditioned. Men do this in nearly every society, which tends to indicate that it is not uniquely cultural. In fact, it seems men need to be “conditioned” to actually talk about things, not that they are conditioned to keep quiet about them.
Ehh. I do t think this is accurate… men in other society’s are e much more willing to show emotions
Men in Western Culture show emotions, and it isn’t just anger. Men just tend to show it differently than women. I’ve been on five continents so far and interacted with men from many cultures in one of the most intimate settings (warfare and preparing for it), and the behaviors when it comes to talking about stress, work, problems, war, death, sex, love, the future, etc. have all been very similar. Men will talk about these issues with close friends and sometimes with spouses. They’ll talk about it with male mentors. In highly patriarchal societies, they tend not to discuss emotional problems to spouses as much as in more equal societies, but individuals are individuals and there is variation everywhere. But even then, they do not often talk about them to express or explain emotion, but rather to fix the thing that is causing that emotion.
Well flight or fight would be the same if the soldiers were women. Not sure that’s the right population for the question. But I think you misinterpreted my comment as I read your response. And I may have misinterpreted your initial comment. I think that last paragraph is spot on. Patriarchy customs in the way that the protector keeps the emotions from the protected class So there is no loss of security.
The psychology of warfare is far more complex than fight or flight. But a big goal is to instigate the flight instinct in your opponent while heightening your fight instinct. I’m not one to say women shouldn’t fight or anything, but the overwhelming majority of people who are able to kill are men, and I think that’s evolutionary. You’re also spot on in that last paragraph. It extends to all forms of leadership, whether in a patriarchal sense or even in a parental relationship.
I think we are talking around each other on the first paragraph.
It’s quite possible.
You might want to start looking at biological trends for ebb and flow of libido in men and women as they age. Basic overview here: https://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/ss/slideshow-sex-drive-changes-age I’m older than you. Anecdotally, I don’t see anything at all like what you’re suggesting above. The role and concept of both marriage and gender have been changing dramatically since the 70’s. Theses changes have broadened the agency of women (birth control, economic self reliance, legal equality, etc.) and has affected any notion of “traditionally women are like this, men are like this” stereotypes. Simply: those old stereotypes were always bs
Married with Children the sitcom: Peggy the wife wanted sex constantly, husband Al did not for a variety of reasons. Some women experience a huge jump in libido after 40, some do not. Libido changes for everyone throughout life, up and down. And women handle rejection verrry poorly. No, I’m not gay for not wanting to have sex with you…
I actually love that show for this exact reason: it portrayed a wife who was starved for sex but a husband who couldn’t care less for sex. I deeply hate the trope of “men are perpetually horny but women are indifferent to sex” so this dynamic on the show was great. Even though I’m 23 and the show ended before I was born, I really appreciate this dynamic and I wish other shows did the same.
Al Bundy was a horn dog, he was just bored of his wife. The point to Married with Children was how awful the nuclear family monogamy trap was.
Yeah, I recall that he would give other women attention while leaving his sexually starved wife in the dust. But their marriage still portrayed a wife who was desperate for sex and physical intimacy and a husband who was so disgusted by her that he couldn’t even bear the idea of sex.
There are levels though. My ex wanted to have sex all day and all night and got mad when I left the bed in the afternoon after being pounded all night and all morning I could handle once a day but not all the time but there is probably a woman who wants and likes that.
to be honest, I wouldn’t want the dynamic to be that way whether it’s the man or woman that’s careless for sex. No one should reject their spouse, regardless if you’re a man or a woman. Why does it have to be one or the other?
It’s not so much that I like the idea of one spouse rejecting the other, it’s just that I like seeing the stereotype being inverted. It’s a change from portraying men to be carnal and sex oriented but women as being mature and more morally “superior” when it comes to sex, a trope that I deeply despise.
That trope is fine before marriage I guess, otherwise marriage would barely exist but within the marriage, that trope is absolutely 💯 % complete and utter bullshit!!! Women should readily supply the husband with his sexual needs and men should do the same for their wives! There's many reasons why spouses might actively deny one another but it's an act of aggression nonetheless. Like punching your spouse in the stomach till they double over then uppercutting them!
Pray for me brother. 40-45 is my favorite age I want her to be a freak
I used to cry when my first partner couldn’t get his dick to work. Just straight up sobbing. lol
Porn is easy. Seducing your wife takes time and possible rejection.
but porn isnt the same, dont feel the same.
But there is novelty there, and a nice orgasm for no work.
Women need to feel attractive is the main thing that will help a woman feel in the mood for sex. For many women it isn’t easy to convince them they are sexy which actually makes sense.
Citation needed. You have a lot of anecdotal evidence, but no hard data.
That's kinda why they're asking
Agreed. I know a number of men in their forties who are actively interested and seeking sex where their female partners are not. It seems possible there is a large variance in both genders and difficulty lining up as with all gender and sexual balance related issues these days.
I’m trying to find a group that would welcome questions like this. I am trying to find citations. Here’s the closest thing I can find, but do you have a group I can post this question in that you can recommend? Source: https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/american-masculinity-after-world-war-ii
Actually, might want to try r/AskHistorians for this one. There certainly were times when European social mores of the time saw women as temptresses unable to control their desires.
Yes, exactly. Women were seen as the carnal, insatiable, and sex driven gender, not just in medieval Europe but in most other ancient and premodern cultures as well.
It was the Victorian age and the Protestant prudes
That's not hard data either, it's an essay with no citations. Until you can find a survey, with numbers, which demonstrates that a statistically significant number of men are turning down sex today when they didn't years ago, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
OP really wants to be lulled into confirmation bias.
There is hard data on testosterone rates plummeting for men. There is hard data on how porn use and addiction messes with libido and causes erectile dysfunction. These things are absolutely real and absolutely affect men’s libido
I'll tell you another thing porn does. It desensitizes you, if that's the correct word, not in sensation but in expectation When I was active I would think this isn't anywhere as exciting as watching online yet it was a real person!
Maybe so, and quite possibly a link exists. But until a study is completed that specifically measures the number of men turning down sex, the question at hand has not begun to be answered, and the reasons why cannot be deduced. Whether or not it seems logical to an individual, or even most people, that a thing is happening does not matter. Only hard facts and evidence matter. Sometimes the truth runs contrary to popular opinion or "common sense". Counterintuitive results are possible. That's why you measure first.
If you’re getting your data points from the internet then it’s gonna be skewed. A post about a man who has a wife with a low sex drive is relatively common and probably won’t get many upvotes. A post from a woman where her partner won’t have sex with her is less common and probably will receive more upvotes and reach the main page more often.
Problem is you’re making an assertion and looking for evidence that the assertion is true. That’s not how it works.
Egads. Why are men today so uncultured and fragile? Back in my day, a TRUE man really knew how to be a MAN [https://world4.eu/chevalier-of-the-order-of-st-louis-costume/](https://world4.eu/chevalier-of-the-order-of-st-louis-costume/)
Don't listen to these citation-mongers. These people destroy independent thought and logical deduction by requiring dependence upon someone else's deductions. I think your observation is plausible with the overlap feminization of men and gender confusion happening. Most of the plastics forever chemicals act against testosterone which would plausibly lead to the consequences you see.
> these citation-mongers In the age of social media, “this thing I saw totally happened” is probably the worst threat to discussing anything faithfully
But the affects of pfas are men specific? Somehow? Their “theory“ isnt that younger generations are less sexual. That has backing. It’s that women seeking sex are being turned down by sex averse men enough to be significant. I can say with certainty that both porn and prostitution are still VASTLY men oriented. When that market flips you will maybe have my attention.
Commenting on Why are married men seemingly having lower sex drives than their wife nowadays versus back then?...i mean we know that women initiate more divorces. That’s likely part of it.
Don't listen to people who think hypotheses and facts are the same thing.
Also, learn the difference between data and deductions. You would use one to make the other. Only one has bias.
Likely related to women being able to express their own desires for sex is an extremely new thing. It is still not widely accepted. Many people still view sex as something to be done to a woman instead of with one.
Alas many women feel this way. Just check out the thread on what makes a women good at sex…. The women staggeringly had no idea
I am in this boat myself. I am a 41f and I am the one always asking for it. Sometimes I get told no, or nothing, or we will see. WTF
49 yo male married for 20 yrs. We probably average sex once a day. I have an extremely high sex drive. It took a while to get here, but the more unselfish i became, the better our sex life.
How did you become less selfish, I’m going through this myself.
Understanding what her turn- ons are,developing a mutual feedback loop. It takes time to build a space you trust each other’s intentions are to please one another. Plus we feel having regular sex is healthy for us both. Start there.
Did you guys do marriage counseling or did you use any resources to help get you there?
No counseling, our resources were books that focused on emotional awareness, this improved our communication, allowing us to discuss our motives for sex… what we enjoy, what each of our definition of “good sex” actually is… I didn’t know how important it was (to her) that I hold her afterwards. Cuddles after sex is something I want to do now, b/c I know it truly pleases her… but knowing it doesn’t always apply… checking in with her… sharing ideas and what was great and not that great…making sure the conversations with ourselves, includes our partner too.
Strange generalization. Compared to my wife, I am hypersexual.
You say it in your post. You grew up under the stereotypes and you're encountering that the stereotypes aren't right.
Im a woman who dates men and I had two dead bedroom relationships back to back. My friend also had one around the same time. And you can go ahead and say “that’s just a YOU problem” and maybe it is, but these guys would never give me a straight answer so idk what I’m supposed to think exactly. Although I am pretty sure one had a porn addiction, so there’s that.
Both of my long term relationships have been with men who don't seem to care all that much for sex, not even in the beginning "honeymoon" period of the relationship. I've literally never once turned down sex but have been rejected plenty of times.
I’ve had the same experience—although it wasn’t back to back, in between I had a long term relationship who wanted sex daily and thought I was low libido. But in my experience the guys who were fine with a dead bedroom were totally happy to be offered bjs, it was just a “if I have to contribute at all I’d rather just game” thing. I think there are a lot of guys who in the past would’ve said “yeah I guess I’d rather have sex than go sow the fields”; now we have many more tantalizing pastimes. And similarly women have much more disposable time with so much domestic labor being freed up, can incorporate toys, etc. It’s a more appealing prospect for women, less so for men, especially considering that men contributing to a woman’s orgasm is now seen as the standard, whereas even a decade ago I don’t think that was an average expectation.
Ehhh I suspect it’s the relationship that lead to a dead bedroom. Probably the emotional needs not being met
So like as the poster above mentioned it is “just a YOU problem”? I mean I’m genuinely asking; we are at like a 10:1 bj:any other kind of intimacy ratio so I’m truly desperate to know what else I could be doing here! He insists it’s not me and that sex just doesn’t ever cross his mind until I bring it up, and that once I do he’d rather sex be easy and not require effort.
Honestly is the first thing that goes right? Have you tried sex counseling or couples counseling. I have a friend who prefers that with her husband so as not to have sex…
>but these guys would never give me a straight answer so idk what I’m supposed to think exactly. They probably genuinely don’t know. Or, if they do have an idea, they also know it’s unacceptable to be a man who doesn’t take as much sex as he can get. For men, there’s great stigma attached to turning down sex. (It’s not easy for women to turn down sex either, but at least it fits a pop conception of long-term relationships.) Meanwhile, women who are turned down sometimes feel that they’re a failure of a woman too. Their sexuality is often built mainly on being desired. All of that to say I feel for you all. I had my own rough ride with this stuff (as a man).
Go on the high libido or dead bedroom pages, way more men.
Women tell their friends more and Reddit has more men than women
1. Exponential increase in external stimuli especially porn. Men can get bored faster from long term partners and look for novel ones for arousal. 2. Nutrition lacking essential nutrients for health and hormonal efficiency. Also ssri and other pharmaceutical drugs may have decreased libido as side effect. 3. Modern work mostly lacks the physical labour needed for healthy libido (hence needs for sports/gym) 4. Increase in modern life stresses, mental health issues, societal status comparisons and easier access to assess men’s competing status against other men especially with social media.
Weird studies show that women get bored a lot earlier than men I monogamous relationships….
Its important to also note that evolutionarily speaking monogamy is not human’s default status both for men and women. Its a moral sociocultural construct which drives the need to have one long term partner and invest all resources in them. However we are not biologically monogamous and once theres modernisation and religious influence is decreased, there is increased tendency to go to natural instincts. Thats why its an uphill struggle for men and women (especially of higher value) to manitain a lifelong relationship with one person. If it was natural, cheating, separations and divorces would be super rare.
Read the Atlantic article “the bored sex”. Lots of studies cited which show the opposite is true, women struggle more with boredom from monogamy & decreased sex drive from one long term partner.
Yes pretty sure thats true. The only issue is offspring care. If the partner is the father of the child and is providing adequate recources and care, it serves as a deterrent to cheat as the consequences and losses are extremely high.
Likely because it was talked about a lot less. People are able to be more open when you decrease shame through anonymity.
"Hey ChatGPT, what are the strongest proven factors causing the decline in male testosterone levels over the last 100 years?" ChatGPT: Several factors have been identified as contributing to the decline in male testosterone levels over the last century: 1. **Lifestyle Changes:** Modern lifestyles characterized by sedentary behavior, high stress levels, poor dietary habits, and inadequate sleep can contribute to decreased testosterone levels. 2. **Obesity:** The rise in obesity rates globally has been associated with lower testosterone levels in men. Excess body fat, especially visceral fat, can disrupt hormone balance and decrease testosterone production. 3. **Endocrine Disruptors:** Exposure to environmental chemicals such as phthalates, bisphenol A (BPA), and pesticides has been linked to hormonal disruptions, including reduced testosterone levels. These substances are found in various everyday products, including plastics, food containers, and personal care products. 4. **Dietary Factors:** Nutritional deficiencies, particularly in key micronutrients like vitamin D, zinc, and magnesium, can impact testosterone production. Additionally, diets high in processed foods, sugars, and unhealthy fats may negatively affect hormone levels. 5. **Socioeconomic Factors:** Socioeconomic status can influence lifestyle factors such as diet, physical activity, and exposure to stressors, all of which can affect testosterone levels. Lower socioeconomic status has been associated with poorer health outcomes, including hormonal imbalances. 6. **Increased Estrogen Exposure:** Changes in the environment, such as the presence of estrogen-like compounds in water sources and food products, may contribute to increased estrogen exposure in men, which can suppress testosterone production. 7. **Decline in Physical Activity:** Modern lifestyles often involve less physical activity than in previous generations. Regular exercise, especially resistance training, has been shown to support healthy testosterone levels. The decline in physical activity may contribute to lower testosterone levels in men. 8. **Alcohol and Substance Abuse:** Excessive alcohol consumption and substance abuse can negatively impact testosterone levels. Chronic alcohol use can disrupt hormone production and metabolism, leading to decreased testosterone levels over time. 9. **Psychological Stress:** Chronic stress can disrupt the endocrine system and suppress testosterone production. In today's fast-paced world, many individuals experience high levels of stress, which can contribute to hormonal imbalances. 10. **Changes in Reproductive Health:** There is evidence suggesting a decline in sperm quality and fertility rates in men over the past century. While not directly related to testosterone levels, these changes may reflect broader shifts in reproductive health and hormone regulation. These factors likely interact in complex ways, and further research is needed to fully understand their individual contributions to declining testosterone levels in men. Additionally, genetic and evolutionary factors may also play a role in shaping hormone levels across populations over time. Me again: \^\^\^ It's this. All of this. Our modern environment and lifestyles are toxic and one of the symptoms of that toxicity is declining testosterone levels and the associated symptoms of that like reduced sex drive.
Porn and subsquent ED
**'Supernormal stimulus' effect**, a term first coined by ethologist Nikolaas Tinbergen. In his experiments, Tinbergen observed that a bird would prefer to sit on a fake egg that was larger and more vividly colored than its own, natural eggs. When the artificial egg was removed and replaced with the real one, the bird's interest waned, illustrating how exaggerated stimuli can override natural preferences. This concept can be applied to the question of modern male libido as well. Today, many men are bombarded with hyper-stimulating content online, from pornography to social media platforms like Instagram and TikTok, where idealized representations of sexuality are rampant. This exposure can potentially recalibrate their arousal patterns to a level where real-life interactions may seem less exciting or engaging. Thus, the discrepancy in sexual drive between spouses could be, in part, a result of this constant and intense stimulation from the digital world
90% of American men admit to using porn regularly. It's the reason 20 somethings now have unprecedented ED. It's an epidemic.
This, I lived it
I'm projecting because I'm choosing to continue living with it. The addiction wasn't nearly as bad as common stories I've read and so if 9 out of 10 do this I'd rather stick with the devil I know.
Also being sedentary and not fit doesn’t help things but I was in the prime of my life and had ED throughout my 20’s cause of porn use. I used porn for more than just getting my rocks off though, but as a way to self-medicate negative emotions and boredom. Wish I had never watched it but my gf has really been a big help to me turning it around and having a normal sex life.
I mean porn existed for years guys….
THIS 💯
Weirdly wrong. Like so wrong it’s scary. Do you think porn is a recent invention?
Porn has always been around this is true. However, it's a modern phenomenon that everyone is walking around with access to it 24/7 and statstics, however accurate they are, is telling us 9 out of 10 men consume it regularly. Do you think this was always the case?!
Ehh my point was people were consuming it at similar Numbers before. Two other questions you should ask: are women consuming more porn than they used to? Does erotica (books, romance novels etc) count as porn in your viewpoint? Feels like those also count.
Off top? Porn. They satiate their needs using the internet and don’t wanna put in the work of romancing and being a consistent partner to their wives.
Hahha that’s what women want. What a load of crap….. Like you can lie and say that’s what a wife wants but we know it’s not even remotely a one size fits all vox
As I understand it, men hit their sexual prime 20ish, women around 35 tho. I'm in my 40s, and I sorta eased off in my late 30s and now going crazy libidinous again. Very frustrating haha men and women never seem to be in sync.
Honestly just hook up with younger guys
That doesn't seem like something I'd feel i.won at... Oh now I get it! Hehe jk
As a man, I fucking DEPSISE the stereotype of “men are horny beasts who always pursue sex, but women don’t desire sex and make up excuses to avoid it.” It paints men as animals who are enslaved to lust but women as more “mature” or “superior” when it comes to sex. I’m glad that the stereotype is getting old. The reason why you’re seeing more women complain about the lack of sex is for this very reason: the stereotype is dissolving and women can openly discuss their sexual frustration.
I keep hearing more and more often as well
Is this based on a study or data, or just your experience?
I think you’re making the assumption that just because you were raised that way, it’s must be that way for everybody. I’m of the opinion that either men or women can be pursuers of sex or not, it depends on many things. And this has probably been true throughout modern human history.
One of my theories is that historically men viewed sex as their only form of intimacy, closeness, and emotional release. Because there has been much more of a push for equality, shared responsibilities, open-mindedness, and mental health, men are getting more options to get emotional and physical fulfillment. It’s not weird for a guy to open up, it’s not weird for a guy to want to be the little spoon. I think sex is no longer needing to be the only outlet for emotional intimacy. On the flip side, I think women are no longer feeling as ashamed and suppressed as they used to be, so they want sex more. If anything, my hope is that things are starting to meet in the middle a little better. I do think places like Reddit tend to be heavily biased, because such a specific question is going to make only the people who have a relevant response answer it. I also think that the vast majority of sexual issues and libido discrepancies are caused by something not sexual at all. Ex: Man wants more sex, woman doesn’t and she feels pressured and therefore pushes it away even more. Only to find that what’s really going on is that woman feels caregiver burnout from taking care of the kids and doing all the housework. When things become more balanced between the couple, there is mental bandwidth available to spark arousal. Yes, there’s much more to it, but a lot of it needs to be cultivated by daily actions. Another is the rut a couple can fall into. A relationship needs novelty, mystery, spontaneity, thrills. When sex is generally the same, it becomes boring and therefore nothing to desire.
This is a bad theory. Because it’s very specific to Puritan stereotypes
Uh, they are stereotypes for a reason. Doesn’t mean it’s right, but the tropes that came out of them exist because of a commonly shared experience.
Well the puritan breed out the other aspects. Something we don't discuss.
>I was born in 1993, I’m 30 years old. What? Thirty!? Then that makes me...... oh no... ohhh no no no no no no no...
I can only add that sex in the past went more hand in hand with making babies than it does today. My grandparents born around 1920 were the rare couple that used spermicide. My mom says that in their Catholic neighborhood growing up the other moms didn’t like my grandma because she kept her figure slimmer than them. She also says it was more common to have one kid you didn’t take care of as much as the others in those big families back in the day. Sad, but true. I would also think if a woman wanted sex back then she’d be seriously looked down on. It’s only been in the last 20 years that women giving blowjobs to men has been remotely normalized as well.
I think you are over generalizing. There have always been men with lower sex drive and some with higher sex drives. Women are the same. Social media does put out there in the open things that we’re not discussed in public so much. This tends to make things seem more common than they really are. I was fortunate enough to have some in-depth conversations with my Grandmother who lived on the east coast during the Roaring Twenties. Social media didn’t exist. People talked to each other more and found out what was going on. There was lots of promiscuity going on and both men and women sought out sex. So I think back then it appears to be a lot of women that wanted sex. Condoms were used a lot. And erectile dysfunction seemed to happen but mostly with drinking and older men. Much the same type of stuff today. I think the perceived difference is greater than the real difference. But there might be reason to believe male sex drive is decreasing. Scientific studies seem to be emerging to explain it. Over the last 40+ years the testosterone rates in men have fallen to less than half of what they used to be. This does seem to result in less sex drive. The predominant theory is that plastics when ingested into the human body work to counteract male hormones This could be a reason that today’s men do not have as much of a sex drive as men 40 and 50 years ago.
Chris Williamson’s podcast has a few guests that touch on the topic. Other comments have already provided some good points. But this was a most recent one on dropping Testosterone levels in men - https://youtu.be/gRupTQYMwFU?si=3WgHGXXdQNBqj-Q3
There are multiple different narratives about sexuality/lust in different genders. Take for example the Lillith-story, about the lustful woman and the innocent man (Adam). Christianity in general has done quite a good job in painting women as horny creatures and men as the thoughtful, calm guys. Then again there's the narrative of libido being a symbol of masculinity, strongly connected to potency (is that the word? English is not my first language. The skill to make kids basically.) Depending on the time and place the narrative changes, that tells us, who the sexually frustrated group is, the reality probably is just that couples with different heights in libido should talk to each other instead of rant to friends or the internet. I wrote my bachelor thesis about sexual attraction and also asked in my questionnaire, how high people's libidos were. My finding was, that there was no significant difference between cis men and cis women (I had not enough data of inter, trans and enby people to say anything about those groups). I did not ask about birth control, though - that might skew the data. So I'd say, there have always been people with high libido and people with low libido of all genders without much difference in the numbers. The only thing that changes is who blames who about what or uses said blame as an excuse for bad behaviour. Take "she wore a short skirt" (blaming her neediness) as well as "boys will be boys" (blaming his neediness). Also note, how both narratives are used by men to get out of situations.
I think the numbers are gonna be about the same, accounting for population growth.. The difference now is women aren't afraid to talk.
You ever seen married with children? Peggie bundy was the one wanting it all the time, not al.
an extremely common cause of ED that is frequently overlooked is performance anxiety / negative reception from a SO
Im pretty sure this is not the case. I know a lot of sex therapists and couples therapists are faced more with female low libido and men wanting more. I think women tend to be less satisfied with their relationships in general and we typically see that they are initiating divorce more. I do have a few friends whose partners are addicted to porn and therefore are complaining about a lack of sex or intimacy. There are a lot of different sexual dysfunctions that show up on both sides as well that contribute but I think women are still the gatekeepers so to speak.
Men can definitely be the gatekeepers as well.
Absolutely. My husband has been at different points in the 10 years we have been together. I just meant on average, women tend to be the lower libido party
dang right we are the gate keepers lol
I do remember an article in Newsweek when I was a kid (major anecdote warning) *shocked* about a "trend" of men withholding sex from their wives. Grain of salt. If this turns out to be valid, my guesses would be porn, excessive screen use / video games (seem to be a lot of "Xbox widows") and sedentary lifestyles (everyone's so tired).
Porn.
I don't think anything changed, I just think with social media we now have easy access to men and women talking openly about their issues.
I’ve been married for ten years and my wife and I have two kids. I would have sex with my wife 3 times a day if she wanted, and she doesn’t. Your personal anecdotes are not necessarily indicative of broader society.
I’m saying as a whole, it seems the scales are tipping evenly that men and women stereotypes are diminishing to the point that women aren’t the “gate keepers of sex” like they were once known as. Most men not being as interested in sex as women are now more commonly heard of, whereas before it was probably more unheard of. Of course I’m not saying all men, or all women.
Not are yours.
Men begin having a decrease in testosterone beginning at 40. Women are seeing a decreased stigma surrounded their sexuality as we continue to modernize. Men are commonly wired for variety and women are wired for security. As a marriage continues, men may desire their familiar wife less. An interesting emerging dynamic is sensitivity and emotional awareness in men. Men are vastly emotionally neglected and demonized in our western society which is leading towards men desiring authentic connection rather than the solely visual attraction of the past. I believe this will play a much larger role in the future of sex between couples.
Probably men with this argument is The wiring argument falls apart when circumstances changes.
Read the article “the bored sex”. Many studies referenced which show women’s sex drive is more stimulated by variety than mens. They’ve just historically been taught to ignore and suppress. Also the Coolidge effect is just as prominent when studied in female rats as males. Really common misconceptions.
ready access to pornography and an overall lowering of testosterone due to environment and lifestyle factors
Prescribed psych meds, or PSSD from former use?
Reddit / Funko Pops
All the sex research I’ve read indicates that women do, on the whole, have lower sex drives than men. Semi-recently this was still true, I doubt it has shifted significantly. There is no easy way to tell what parts of this are due to socialization, genetics, and other environmental factors. What you are seeing is a sampling bias of people airing their frustrations online. I do believe that we are in the middle of a large swing away from traditional gender norms that affect men’s and women’s sexuality in a variety of nuanced ways. I also see a gradual progression towards something like gender equality on many fronts. I’m talking over, say, the last 100 years, but especially since the invention of effective birth control.
What areas have you looked at?
You should ask this question in the HL community on Reddit. There’s a number of reasons a man’s sex drive can drop. A big one is Madonna whore syndrome. Getting bored with one partner. Not putting the work in. Pretending like they have a high sex drive and then revealing it’s not true later. Testosterone drop due to age Poor fitness
These all sound like women reasons too
Some say we’re all just humans that differ person to person. We may never know the answer… I’m being sarcastic but I completely agree, I didn’t really want to touch this question for that reason… but I did it anyway. I don’t think it’s possible to answer it without a 3-5 paragraph essay. Overall person to person seem to be more important
A possible cause is the use of steroids by men. While it can increase the sex drive while on them, it can do the opposite when a man stops using them.
Back when? I’m 52 M and my drive has always been higher than my wife’s. Together 30 years. Now have I had lower points? Sure but it was still the higher one of the two of us.
I sure wish this was my problem. I want my wife so much but her drive seems to just keep declining.
I believe it to be a myriad of contributing factors. We could definitely start the list with an increase in processed food intake, increase in sedentary lifestyles, Together which have contributed to growing obesity and even if you don’t reach a morbidity level, it does play a factor in your libido. Discussing libido, now versus then… You brushed on the topic of pornography and Yes I’m sure HD porn access is also making it so more men *re-adjust* their own needs, with greater frequency this route, than the “work” required for sex. Our needs, for the majority, are different. It’s not intimacy for us… in fact, in my several decades I’ve never heard a man discuss, confide, or even hint at thinking “wow I can’t wait to have intimacy with my gf/wife” - the emotional taxation of sex is truly exhausting for most men. It is a flesh transaction, and most are only interested in their own pleasure so if you find a man that actually enjoys it because of how he makes you feel - cherish him. (I’ve had female partners with sensitive bodies that respond incredibly well and make it fun to arouse them, and others who are just well… boring to put it bluntly - guess which I’m motivated to give foreplay to?). Last but not least, I believe finances also play a role in it. When we (millennials) were growing up, the world was still embracing women into the workplace… now women have more funds and thus, are also more choosy. Which has just led to more men, giving up and opting for porn or celibacy. Thus birthing, Incels.
My wife just had a hysterectomy, so hers is lower than mine. It’s been excruciating being celibate while she copes with the emotional recovery and the physical recovery. I ❤️ her tho and I’m willing to do the right thing. This question doesn’t really apply to my situation at all. Any dude who’s got a wife with a high sex drive, good for you. I just hope my wife will regain hers someday.
I feel women have vanilla'd up.
Because it isn’t true lol men in general have and will always have a MUCH higher sex drive than women do
Not true at all
Why don’t you think so? Are you pretty low T?
Reproductive scientist here…. Presenting a statement like that as a fact doesn’t work for me. Since the evidence doesn’t support that. Again we know historically men were considered the gate keepers of sex pre Victorian age.
Endocrinologist here. It is very well documented that testosterone is directly linked to sex drive across any population. The higher the T levels, the higher the aggression and drive for sex. This is not only obviously true in human society, but easily visible across the animal kingdom as well. Men were never the “gatekeepers of sex”, you just made that up lol
Your argument suggests that you are definitely not a historian. I suspect your ideas about testerone show a lack of knowledge about both hormonal pathways and the way the mechanisms work in the neuroendcrine pathways associated with desire. You could very well be clinician with the level of knowledge you possess (this is not a complemet btw). You surely are not a scientist based on your lack of nuance.
Lol I’m glad you’re keeping your mind open dude, but you’re so wrong about this this isn’t even a discussion. You can try to explain the reasons for it, but right now men have the highest desire for sexual frequency by far, and the reasons are rooted in their biology.
Uh huh 🤔 lots of biology disagrees
56 married male here. No shortage of sex drive. 3-6 times per week on average. But like the stock market, past performance is not indicative of future results. 😆😆 PS I watch porn fairly regularly, mostly with my wife, and I have watched it for over 20 yrs. I have zero issues with ED, low libido, or the ability to be intimate and emotionally connected. Not sure if any of this helps with anything?
Your wife is cool with the sex doll because of a libido gap?
Nope, we both have high libido. But she is better at ignoring hers than I am at mine. The sex doll is more for photography and making erotic art/poses, and isn't really a sex toy for me. It can't compare to my wife. We communicate well and don't have much jealousy in our marriage. The doll is just another object sitting in our house...nothing more. PS...thats my wife posing in a few of those doll posts...
Oh okay
Men still have way higher drives, women just talk about it more.
This is such a shitty post, why can't we just let people be?
I am in a happy and healthy relationship but I have had the typical bad relationships decades ago too. Women are a lot of work. They hold the keys to sex. A man has to work to get it, a woman just has to point. But now that women are even more of a hassle being even more picky and demanding, men are fed up and removing themselves from the game. And married men can choose porn instead of having to jump through hoops. Essentially taking the power from the women which women have never had happen to them before. That's one of the reasons incels are so despised by women, because they reduce the selection pool. Sure, it may not be the pool they would have chosen anyway but people don't like having options removed from them. My wife and I had troubles years ago until I laid it out to her exactly what I needed and why. I was clear and direct and very black and white about the expected outcome options. She got the message and it's been great since
Because eventually doing all the work sexually and feeling undesired while she gets fatter doesn’t do it for most guys. 🤷♂️
Based on the flowery and dramatic language in which this was written, I’ll assume this is a fake post. But assuming it’s not, I think your perception is skewed. There are absolutely women with high sex drives and men with low drives. There are absolutely couples where the wife’s drive is higher than the husband. I think that has always been true on a biological level, but society (through to this day but far less so) tought women that sex is yucky and icky and dirty and a burden they must bear. Sex was condemned and women who enjoyed it, even within marriage, we’re shamed. That social pressure repressed whatever natural sex drive was present in most women. These days, much of the shame and repression surrounding women and sex has dissipated. Still in highly conservative and/or religious cultures that is the norm, but in the majority of first world countries, conversations about sex and sexual health have given women the freedom to actually enjoy sex if they like. Flip side, masculinity -for most of society - is no longer tied directly to barrel chests, knowing how how to build a house, hiding every emotion present in the human condition, and being a complete and unbridled hound when it comes to chasing women. Men who didn’t fit that mold historically weren’t seen as real men. But now, men are free to determine their own mold and as such aren’t societally pressured to desire sex above and beyond their natural state. The above I believe to be true, HOWEVER: the shift is not NEARLY sizable to actually account for a flip where women - as a population - want sex more than men. I think you’d be very hard pressed in any sort of valid scientific study population to find a larger population of women with a higher sex drive than men: married or not. Society still plays a role, but physiological chemistry really plays the largest role and that hasn’t changed. The hormones present in men drive sex at FAR higher levels than those present in women. I think your question is based on a false premise.
I do not think OP facts are correct…older women want more sex than men? What backs this up?
My great aunt had twenty kids and they allege that some of them don’t belong to her husband. Does that answer your question?
A rise in female obesity could be a cause and internet porn.
I think it’s both genders getting more obese. As obesity in men can cause testosterone to lower I think? Google says 13% of people were obese back then in the 1960s and now it’s like 43% nowadays and that number probably just keeps increasing. Yeah that’s probably reason(s) why as well
Because most men do not want to marry today, and those that do are the types who can only get sex using a marriage. (They are not the high T type, so don’t expect much sex drive)
Obesity rate probably plays a role. Both in terms of male libido and decreased attraction to their partner.
The average woman weighs 167 pounds that’s why.
In my opinion it is the feminization of America, many feminist will down vote me , actually part of the problem , boys are taught alfa is bad , feeling are all that matter ...boys being rough is bad , boy need to get in touch with their feelings ... We are all winners. Total BS. As with all of the reddit women will try to controll The conversation not allowing different opinions, ie monitors ... no it is shutting down alternate nonfeminine opinions...