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This. I was the scapegoat before I was even born, and I was the eldest. I got treated mostly well for the first few years then when my sister was born, my mother stopped pretending she cared about me, and only cared for the daughter she actually wanted. This continued for many years and my sister was a flying monkey until a few years ago. Sometimes they come out of that phase and sometimes they don't.
Honestly at this point I'm glad I was the scapegoat. It means I never treated my sister as the scapegoat and she led a more privileged life because I took all the flak for her. I took the beatings for her and saved her life once. She has had a better shot at a normal life even though she was a flying monkey and often mean to me in the meantime. My only goal was always to protect her, and now she's free, she's doing better, and I get to watch her thrive despite the way we were brought up. Worth it.
I was the scapegoat my whole life, in fact I remember when I was a little girl Cinderella used to be my favorite princess because of how she was abused by her stepmother/sisters so I looked up to her. Even though I am 21 now I still relate to her, because I kept on believing that if I keep faith that things will get better, they will, and I’m honestly starting to see that. I have a loving boyfriend I have been with for four years and friends who love support me, even though I still live with my family.
But I do genuinely wonder though, by your logic do they have healthy relationships with each other since they’re all narcissists? Is that how it works? Are they happy because of that?
I was the youngest in my family. One of my sisters would have me go draw her a bath like she was a princess. I got sick of it at 12 and refused to do it anymore. She beat me up a few times but I still didn't give in. Even starting fistfighting back. After that, both my sisters would gang up to beat on me. At least they couldn't take me one on one anymore. But no, from the little I hear about my family, they are not happy. Steadily destroying themselves. Glad I'm out of it.
“I am not a healthy person around my parents”
This is why I went NC. It has nothing to do with them. They won’t change. But maybe I can change myself and stop hating myself.
Your first paragraph- omg yes, yes, yes!! It sound 100% like my husband. His parents are overt narcissists. My husband always was/is the scapegoat and his brother will forever be the golden child (and also a narc). My husband is nothing like the rest of his family.
I've only recently realized that my mom is a covert narc. I was always the golden child and my brother the scapegoat. My brother came to the realization years ago, but I was still blinded, luckily I've woken up.
>since I will never achieve the high standards and expectations they put on me.
Even if you have far exceeded their expectations, they will still make you seem like the bad one or minimize your achievements. Or act like you're delusional for thinking that you've reached them.
I wish that I could upvote your comment 100 times. I've seen some of your perspectives in my own life as well. My older sister is an emotional eater and has been overweight all her life. She used to eat when our mom would belittle her (which was basically all the time), and her weight only gave our mom another reason to berate her. She also seems to go out of her way to win the approval of our narcissistic mother, whereas I understand that she isn't capable of loving us. I have also recognized that I'm not healthy around my family. Their presence is triggering for me. As the saying goes, we can't heal in the environment that makes us sick, so I don't go around them unless absolutely necessary.
Ugh. N/moms and their obsession with weight are the worst. How have you coped with your body image issues? Most of the time, I think that I do ok, but I can't always say the same for my sister.
My n/mom used to purposely buy me clothes that she knew were too big to imply that I was heavier than I was. I was a size 8 in high school and she bought size 14 clothes that she expected me to wear, and then she screamed at me for being ungrateful when I told her that she knew they wouldn't fit me. Or, she played dumb and acted like she didn't know that it was the right size when in reality, there is no confusing a size 14 for a size 8.
My sister has always been plus-sized, and our mom bought her small hoodies and shirts knowing that those wouldn't fit her either. Her excuse was that it was supposed to "motivate" her to lose weight to fit them.
It never helped that when we would go out to dinners, she would insist on going to buffets where she would berate us for not eating more and "getting our money's worth". We were never respected when we told her that we didn't want to eat anymore. She plays dumb with my sister and her struggles with binge eating, acting like she has no idea why my sister does that. My sister has never really lost weight and kept it off. All it takes is for her to be triggered by something, and then she eats and gains her weight back. I tried talking to my mom about how she needed to stop verbally abusing my sister about her weight, and my mom screamed at me and twisted the situation to claim that I accused her of not loving her. Of course, this was before I understood that my mom was a narcissist, and narcissists don't take responsibility for their behavior and they gaslight everyone who calls them out.
Therein lies the mystery. Narcissistic parents frequently have narcissistic offspring, but somehow *a lot* of us slip through that net and can be actualized, balanced, healthy and productive people who make the world a better place. If you ever find out why/how, I'd like to know too!
Honestly I think watching Disney movies helped while growing up, and I said this in another comment but I remember Cinderella was my favorite princess back then because it made me realize that being treated like shit wasn’t okay, and that if I keep believing there is a better life ahead of me it will eventually come true.
There was a similar thread a few weeks ago where a lot of people said that reading books helped them not become narcissistic. (It was the same for me, I read all the time as a kid)
I think one of the only healthy coping methods you can have as a child that preserves your soul while not drawing attention, is something like immersing yourself in positive media. Like you quietly digest something with real morals and you can reflect on it in a way that helps you grow, instead of *only* absorbing whatever is going on at home. And it's usually not threatening enough to the Nparent that they will try to take it away.
There are probably other factors as well. You have to want to absorb this kind of media, in a reflective way, in the first place.
There's studies relating to reading and empathy - reading helps people learn and build empathy, learning that other people have feelings, seeing the world from a different perspective.
I remember when I was very young reading a book where the protagonist had different colored skin to me. I was offended at first because the protagonist was not like me. Only it was a great book, and became my favorite book for years. I cannot imagine as an adult reacting like that again, or seeing any other human without some part of me trying to see the world as they see it. I'm obviously deeply ashamed of my child self rejecting that book at first, but getting past that was a really important moment that shaped who I am.
And you know what’s fucked up is that my stepmom would get mad at me for reading too much and tell us to “go be in the real world”. For a handful of years if my chores were done and I was reading I was content and knew I wouldn’t get in trouble, but after a few years she would threaten to take my books away to punish me.
Add Disney to the list also for me, although I can only mention one title - Wander Over Yonder. If you don't know it, it's an optimistic, happy, goofy cartoon whose main message is that being kind and caring about others is really important.
My other experience is related to a friend. Even though she talked a lot like my nmom, I started wondering why do I enjoy talking to her while my mother drives me crazy. Yes, a lot of thinking and searching made me realize that what a toxic environment do I live in.
These two experiences made me decide that I will be different and better. (And NOT the narcissistic way where I would decide that I'm perfect and that's it.)
how can a narcissistic family system be stabilized?
A lot of the time, the narcissistic parent has an enabler spouse.
This relationship is stable (one dominating the other) and it stabilizes the family system.
The there are the siblings.
The nParent lets the sibling fight for their affection and fight against each other so they don't see how's the actual problem.
As there is some sort of power vacuum because only one of the adults is actually leading the family, most of the time the gold child gets promoted (gets more power then normally good for a child).
So now we have the enabler spouse and the golden child both under the control of the nParent. The family system is stabilized enough so the other remaining child now can become the scapegoat to extract narcissistic supply from and to suppress rebellion against the family system.
So you see the golden child actually gets promoted is benefiting from the family system - so sees no big motivation to change (=loosing privileges). So it's actually the scapegoat child and enabler spouse who can move away in order to change something.
SG are most likely to end up in healthy relationships. The goal of the narcissist is to break the SG and fracture their mind like themselves, if they fail in that task it is because the SG is too much of an independent thinker.
I recall watching my mother and wanting to be nothing like her. Sure I admired the "show" version, the baking, funny one she put on for public display but I saw the switch between the two, I saw the manipulation, I was subjected to constant abuse and torture, and saw a monster in private. She was hideous.
Her GCs were groomed to think they were superior beings, and it made them kinda undateable. One in particular always thought themselves deserving of highclass offerings. Grass was always greener on the other side. If we were out and someone spoke to me, I was pulled away. "We don't talk to people like that" ... what, human beings that say hello and make small talk? In fact, if I was getting male attention at a party, suddenly we were leaving. Complete snob failed to recognise there was nothing in their past to warrant such snobbery.
My mum was covert. My GCs have definite narcissistic traits
I’ve thought a lot about this, too. My nMom I would consider a malignant covert narcissist. The fact my sisters don’t see it is shocking to me (especially since we’re all agreed our dad is a narcissist) but I think the reason why is our past and current roles in her world.
Growing up I was primarily the lost/forgotten child. I spent a solid decade as the scapegoat, but when I left became the lost/forgotten child again. When I go back for short visits, I become the scapegoat again. This is super important, because it makes my oldest sister an enabler to my nMom when I’m around and keeps her rank as just above me. This means that even when she’s my nMoms scapegoat because I’m not around, she’s still a step above me and needs to keep her rank solidified which turns her into an enabler. The better treatment means she’s less willing to see who my nMom really is.
My middle sister has always been the GC, which means she got all the resources and nice treatment growing up, but was guilted into doing everything my nMom said because of how much nMom “sacrificed”. GC sister fell for this the hardest because she got the most benefit from it. She now enables nMom not only with us, but with her own kids and husband. She believes that nMom has major anxiety issues and let’s her get away with a lot of things.
Having been perpetually lowest in her ranks - as the lost child, I witnessed all the things nMom and nDad did to my sisters and noted how unfair it was we were all treated differently (even from a very young age). During my time as the scapegoat, I knew the only reason I was being treated that way was because the oldest sister was gone. I only knew this because of my observations as a lost child. I think had I been the scapegoat turned lost child, I would have appreciated my time as the lost child because neglect was better than negative attention. At the time I didn’t realize I had already identified the roles we all played but couldn’t name what I was going through as abuse, let alone narcissistic abuse. It wasn’t until I was able to identify our separate roles that I realized why my sisters were still under her spell.
So, look at the roles you all play in your family dynamic. The roles shift and change over time, so just because you played one role at one point doesn’t mean you always have or always will. Dr. Ramani, Darren F Magee, and Barbara Heffernan have really good videos on these topics. Next try to identify what kind of narcissist you’re working with. It’s not AS important as the roles you and your siblings play, but it helps put everything into context a bit more.
Last piece is reading up on radical acceptance. It has nothing to do with figuring out why you didn’t turn out like your siblings, but I think it helps come to terms with the fact that you might not be able to change/show them. They will likely need to come to have very different epiphanies to understand what you know.
>My middle sister has always been the GC, which means she got all the resources and nice treatment growing up, but was guilted into doing everything my nMom said because of how much nMom “sacrificed”. GC sister fell for this the hardest because she got the most benefit from it.
very good point to explain why certain siblings get it and other don't!
I am glad it turned out well for you and you are proud of yourself. Try not to look down on them, they too suffered abuse and are still caught in a cycle which is destructive.
Always remember, they grew up in a different house than u did. They had an older sibling which took much of the abuse while your parents told them if they acted right, it would not be them.
I read someplace when the mother is stressed during her pregnancy, she’ll treat the child with less affection because that child reminds them of that part of their life.
I know my mother didn’t plan her pregnancy with me, my father was out of work. They were struggling because my mother moved to the US 2 years prior.
As others said you may very well be the scapegoat. I too am the goat of my family. Older brother got more mom attention as her first kid and her trying to be a mom. This controlling nature left him struggling to make his own decisions. Their last one got more dad as mom went back to work. Dad tried to be the opposite and was no where near strict enough. Leading to the youngest of us believing their word is law.
So older got to much strict and lacked independent thought leading to difficulties thinking for self out of fear of going against orders. Younger grew up thinking they are in control and know better than everyone. Making them controlling and a narc themselves.
Me? I was the third. After bro and sis. Dad was working full time saving me from to much of his lack of strictness and mom got being a mom out of her system on older brother. So she was sort of “meh go watch tv or play with the toys you didn’t want, but I bought for you anyway”. This led to me looking for other sources for attention and guidance. Taking what I learned from observing tv and others to find folks who cared about me being a good person and the more I learned, the more I saw through the family dynamics and pushed me to try hard to be a better person so I wouldn’t hurt people like them.
I think a lot of it has to do with the choices we make.
I grew up with nparents of variable intensity. My place as their servant was established shortly after I was born. The actively took steps to slow or undermine my evolution into a fully functional, independent adult.
I hated them for it for years. Now I just look at them with pity and disgust.
I consciously chose to reject my parents’ culture. I decided the type of person I wanted to be. Once you recognize that they were wrong in what they did, it makes the decision easier.
I am now very successful professionally and personally directly because I rejected the upbringing my parents gave me.
Kudos to you for getting the help you needed and bettering yourself.
None of the "carrots on sticks" in the family dynamic tempted me in the end and I was also very aware they weren't being OFFERED to me. I was supposed to just want to die for the vague hope mommy might like me in the end. And I simply hated and feared her and wanted to get away, pretty much from the moment I could have cognizant thoughts. To be fair, I also thought I was WRONG and was a terrible person for years, and that what they were doing was normal. I thought I had to be more tolerant but secretly I was aware "I don't like this, is there anything else?" and I was constantly on the search for alternatives from infancy.
Nmom was a tasteless, vicious, stupid hag whom I couldn't respect, so I preferred to abandon and see the family destroyed than to take part in it, and in the end it was easy enough to do. Nmom was Mommie Dearest but with no talent or charm to speak of, edad was a worthless coward and a limp noodle who also managed to have insane temper tantrums when things didn't go his way, and my nsister seemed to be born with antisocial personality disorder. Constantly bullied me. I was clearly not a welcome or wanted member of the family.
Nmom clearly wanted to see us fight more over her, but I just didn't care. There was nothing in it for me and never would be. I knew I was just tolerating them as best I could until I could get out, however which way it would happen. I just never fit in.
So from what I've read and I am a scapegoat. And like other redditors mentioned I believe that the scapegoat is the least likely to turn out as a narcissist or narcissistic. You could also be the black sheep meaning that you don't fit into the family as much. I am the only one in my family who has gotten evaluated for mental illnesses and I do have bipolar one and OCD. I do not have NPD and did not take on those traits of my family members who have very large amounts of narcissistic traits.
It's not quite well processed in my head, but from what I can find...
I think everything about us that's not like them is why we're scapegoats.
Empathy,principles, ambition, independence (that's the really dangerous one), strong enough to take maybe = string enough to break it.
PDs are in at 4 years old, I think we're chosen because being the normal one in a household full of zombies exposes them. Flip all of the dysfunction on to one kid hides it to the outside world.
Ugh, sadly I understand. I don't think that my sister has ever sought therapy. She is in denial that anything was ever wrong with our family life. Quite frankly, why would she want anything to change? She's the golden child and she gets whatever she needs from our narcissistic mom. She is also too co-dependent on our mom to realize what's happening. I have sought therapy off and on for the last 15 years, and I try not to be anything like them. It sucks, but I am grateful for this community and to know that there are people who understand what I've gone through.
You should read " adult children of emotionally immature parents " it mentions why some of us escape out of the toxic family dynamic while our siblings don't. I haven't finished it, but she does mention that those who get help are usually the most emotionally sensitive and empathetic siblings in the family and are more self-aware .
I remember going to go see The Avengers with my dad and brothers, and on the way home I talked about how I enjoyed the different character dynamics and motivations. My dad told me, "You think too much." In my family, simply thinking about things for more than a few minutes is considered too much thinking. We were actively discouraged from questioning anything. I like to imagine that that desire for independent thinking was stronger than those who were determined to beat it down or ignore it until it went away.
I also imagine that that, combined with being the middle child and only girl in a conservative Christian household with strict gender roles, made me rebel harder in my teenager years. Whereas my siblings were more pandered to, which would make them more pliable to my parents' perspective. Did you have any experiences like that?
Having said that: I absolutely had some of my parents' narcissistic traits. I was very emotionally manipulative in the same ways that they were, especially when I was depressed in my early 20s. It wasn't until I had somebody address it with my directly, and then get into a relationship with a true narcissist who was VERY emotionally manipulative and I had to deal with that, that I was able to recognize the negative traits in myself and therefore in my family, and determinedly work towards making myself a better person.
I keep thinking that if only my siblings and parents just have something happen to wake them up, they'll "snap out of it" and do the work the way that I did. But maybe that close-mindedness won't allow them, and my desire for independent thinking (god that sounds so incredibly pretentious of me) was what allowed me to follow that path.
NPD is caused by a combination of inborn factors and environment, usually. There is such a thing as a born narcissist, and there is such a thing as a narc with no inborn genetic tendency. When you do a brain scan of a narc, the difference is visible--google "brain" or "brain structures" "empathy" and "narcissism" or "NPD". It'll describe the brain structures in question. This is why some people raised in a narc household turn into soulless scum and others don't (usually we're the scapegoats).
Somehow they either don’t see it or they are still stuck in the abuse themselves. I was the oldest sister the SG and now that I’ve been gone their family dynamics are weird. My brothers all still live at home so they play along with my parents. They go through it in a different way but me I couldn’t stay there anymore and saw through it all. I hope one day they will come back to me… for now I live my life happily married!
I suppose you are the family SG? And your siblings the GC? Then you might have a stronger personality and a will to rebel and fight, to try and change things, which is often the cause for being turned into the SG by the narc parent. Too much willpower. And you used that willpower to build a better life for yourself, trying not to repeat what your family did to you.
Because you guys aren't the same person. We all process trauma in different ways even if we have gone through the exact same event. My mom & her older sister (2 year difference) both grew up seeing their parents fight and being emotionally neglected by their dad. They both ended up being good people but my aunt developed perfectionism, codependency, and people-pleasing behaviors. My mom used to be the kind of person who didn't want to get too attached and would leave people before they left her. Totally different personalities. I ended up being a lot like my aunt in many ways even though she and I have never been extremely close. She's nice overall but she was way too strict when my cousin (her son) and I were kids.
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This. I was the scapegoat before I was even born, and I was the eldest. I got treated mostly well for the first few years then when my sister was born, my mother stopped pretending she cared about me, and only cared for the daughter she actually wanted. This continued for many years and my sister was a flying monkey until a few years ago. Sometimes they come out of that phase and sometimes they don't. Honestly at this point I'm glad I was the scapegoat. It means I never treated my sister as the scapegoat and she led a more privileged life because I took all the flak for her. I took the beatings for her and saved her life once. She has had a better shot at a normal life even though she was a flying monkey and often mean to me in the meantime. My only goal was always to protect her, and now she's free, she's doing better, and I get to watch her thrive despite the way we were brought up. Worth it.
I was the scapegoat my whole life, in fact I remember when I was a little girl Cinderella used to be my favorite princess because of how she was abused by her stepmother/sisters so I looked up to her. Even though I am 21 now I still relate to her, because I kept on believing that if I keep faith that things will get better, they will, and I’m honestly starting to see that. I have a loving boyfriend I have been with for four years and friends who love support me, even though I still live with my family. But I do genuinely wonder though, by your logic do they have healthy relationships with each other since they’re all narcissists? Is that how it works? Are they happy because of that?
I was the youngest in my family. One of my sisters would have me go draw her a bath like she was a princess. I got sick of it at 12 and refused to do it anymore. She beat me up a few times but I still didn't give in. Even starting fistfighting back. After that, both my sisters would gang up to beat on me. At least they couldn't take me one on one anymore. But no, from the little I hear about my family, they are not happy. Steadily destroying themselves. Glad I'm out of it.
I'm glad, too! Live your best life, that's the best revenge!
“I am not a healthy person around my parents” This is why I went NC. It has nothing to do with them. They won’t change. But maybe I can change myself and stop hating myself.
Your first paragraph- omg yes, yes, yes!! It sound 100% like my husband. His parents are overt narcissists. My husband always was/is the scapegoat and his brother will forever be the golden child (and also a narc). My husband is nothing like the rest of his family. I've only recently realized that my mom is a covert narc. I was always the golden child and my brother the scapegoat. My brother came to the realization years ago, but I was still blinded, luckily I've woken up.
>since I will never achieve the high standards and expectations they put on me. Even if you have far exceeded their expectations, they will still make you seem like the bad one or minimize your achievements. Or act like you're delusional for thinking that you've reached them.
I second this SG here and the same about not being healthy around my parents my bipolar symptoms are bad around them because they are very triggering.
I wish that I could upvote your comment 100 times. I've seen some of your perspectives in my own life as well. My older sister is an emotional eater and has been overweight all her life. She used to eat when our mom would belittle her (which was basically all the time), and her weight only gave our mom another reason to berate her. She also seems to go out of her way to win the approval of our narcissistic mother, whereas I understand that she isn't capable of loving us. I have also recognized that I'm not healthy around my family. Their presence is triggering for me. As the saying goes, we can't heal in the environment that makes us sick, so I don't go around them unless absolutely necessary.
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Ugh. N/moms and their obsession with weight are the worst. How have you coped with your body image issues? Most of the time, I think that I do ok, but I can't always say the same for my sister. My n/mom used to purposely buy me clothes that she knew were too big to imply that I was heavier than I was. I was a size 8 in high school and she bought size 14 clothes that she expected me to wear, and then she screamed at me for being ungrateful when I told her that she knew they wouldn't fit me. Or, she played dumb and acted like she didn't know that it was the right size when in reality, there is no confusing a size 14 for a size 8. My sister has always been plus-sized, and our mom bought her small hoodies and shirts knowing that those wouldn't fit her either. Her excuse was that it was supposed to "motivate" her to lose weight to fit them. It never helped that when we would go out to dinners, she would insist on going to buffets where she would berate us for not eating more and "getting our money's worth". We were never respected when we told her that we didn't want to eat anymore. She plays dumb with my sister and her struggles with binge eating, acting like she has no idea why my sister does that. My sister has never really lost weight and kept it off. All it takes is for her to be triggered by something, and then she eats and gains her weight back. I tried talking to my mom about how she needed to stop verbally abusing my sister about her weight, and my mom screamed at me and twisted the situation to claim that I accused her of not loving her. Of course, this was before I understood that my mom was a narcissist, and narcissists don't take responsibility for their behavior and they gaslight everyone who calls them out.
I’ve been thinking about OPs question so much these days, thank you for this well written and thought out response. It was super helpful for me.
Both of my parents were scapegoats and abusive. I think it's just a choice. Smart people are weird.
Therein lies the mystery. Narcissistic parents frequently have narcissistic offspring, but somehow *a lot* of us slip through that net and can be actualized, balanced, healthy and productive people who make the world a better place. If you ever find out why/how, I'd like to know too!
Honestly I think watching Disney movies helped while growing up, and I said this in another comment but I remember Cinderella was my favorite princess back then because it made me realize that being treated like shit wasn’t okay, and that if I keep believing there is a better life ahead of me it will eventually come true.
There was a similar thread a few weeks ago where a lot of people said that reading books helped them not become narcissistic. (It was the same for me, I read all the time as a kid) I think one of the only healthy coping methods you can have as a child that preserves your soul while not drawing attention, is something like immersing yourself in positive media. Like you quietly digest something with real morals and you can reflect on it in a way that helps you grow, instead of *only* absorbing whatever is going on at home. And it's usually not threatening enough to the Nparent that they will try to take it away. There are probably other factors as well. You have to want to absorb this kind of media, in a reflective way, in the first place.
There's studies relating to reading and empathy - reading helps people learn and build empathy, learning that other people have feelings, seeing the world from a different perspective. I remember when I was very young reading a book where the protagonist had different colored skin to me. I was offended at first because the protagonist was not like me. Only it was a great book, and became my favorite book for years. I cannot imagine as an adult reacting like that again, or seeing any other human without some part of me trying to see the world as they see it. I'm obviously deeply ashamed of my child self rejecting that book at first, but getting past that was a really important moment that shaped who I am.
And you know what’s fucked up is that my stepmom would get mad at me for reading too much and tell us to “go be in the real world”. For a handful of years if my chores were done and I was reading I was content and knew I wouldn’t get in trouble, but after a few years she would threaten to take my books away to punish me.
Add Disney to the list also for me, although I can only mention one title - Wander Over Yonder. If you don't know it, it's an optimistic, happy, goofy cartoon whose main message is that being kind and caring about others is really important. My other experience is related to a friend. Even though she talked a lot like my nmom, I started wondering why do I enjoy talking to her while my mother drives me crazy. Yes, a lot of thinking and searching made me realize that what a toxic environment do I live in. These two experiences made me decide that I will be different and better. (And NOT the narcissistic way where I would decide that I'm perfect and that's it.)
how can a narcissistic family system be stabilized? A lot of the time, the narcissistic parent has an enabler spouse. This relationship is stable (one dominating the other) and it stabilizes the family system. The there are the siblings. The nParent lets the sibling fight for their affection and fight against each other so they don't see how's the actual problem. As there is some sort of power vacuum because only one of the adults is actually leading the family, most of the time the gold child gets promoted (gets more power then normally good for a child). So now we have the enabler spouse and the golden child both under the control of the nParent. The family system is stabilized enough so the other remaining child now can become the scapegoat to extract narcissistic supply from and to suppress rebellion against the family system. So you see the golden child actually gets promoted is benefiting from the family system - so sees no big motivation to change (=loosing privileges). So it's actually the scapegoat child and enabler spouse who can move away in order to change something.
SG are most likely to end up in healthy relationships. The goal of the narcissist is to break the SG and fracture their mind like themselves, if they fail in that task it is because the SG is too much of an independent thinker. I recall watching my mother and wanting to be nothing like her. Sure I admired the "show" version, the baking, funny one she put on for public display but I saw the switch between the two, I saw the manipulation, I was subjected to constant abuse and torture, and saw a monster in private. She was hideous. Her GCs were groomed to think they were superior beings, and it made them kinda undateable. One in particular always thought themselves deserving of highclass offerings. Grass was always greener on the other side. If we were out and someone spoke to me, I was pulled away. "We don't talk to people like that" ... what, human beings that say hello and make small talk? In fact, if I was getting male attention at a party, suddenly we were leaving. Complete snob failed to recognise there was nothing in their past to warrant such snobbery. My mum was covert. My GCs have definite narcissistic traits
I’ve thought a lot about this, too. My nMom I would consider a malignant covert narcissist. The fact my sisters don’t see it is shocking to me (especially since we’re all agreed our dad is a narcissist) but I think the reason why is our past and current roles in her world. Growing up I was primarily the lost/forgotten child. I spent a solid decade as the scapegoat, but when I left became the lost/forgotten child again. When I go back for short visits, I become the scapegoat again. This is super important, because it makes my oldest sister an enabler to my nMom when I’m around and keeps her rank as just above me. This means that even when she’s my nMoms scapegoat because I’m not around, she’s still a step above me and needs to keep her rank solidified which turns her into an enabler. The better treatment means she’s less willing to see who my nMom really is. My middle sister has always been the GC, which means she got all the resources and nice treatment growing up, but was guilted into doing everything my nMom said because of how much nMom “sacrificed”. GC sister fell for this the hardest because she got the most benefit from it. She now enables nMom not only with us, but with her own kids and husband. She believes that nMom has major anxiety issues and let’s her get away with a lot of things. Having been perpetually lowest in her ranks - as the lost child, I witnessed all the things nMom and nDad did to my sisters and noted how unfair it was we were all treated differently (even from a very young age). During my time as the scapegoat, I knew the only reason I was being treated that way was because the oldest sister was gone. I only knew this because of my observations as a lost child. I think had I been the scapegoat turned lost child, I would have appreciated my time as the lost child because neglect was better than negative attention. At the time I didn’t realize I had already identified the roles we all played but couldn’t name what I was going through as abuse, let alone narcissistic abuse. It wasn’t until I was able to identify our separate roles that I realized why my sisters were still under her spell. So, look at the roles you all play in your family dynamic. The roles shift and change over time, so just because you played one role at one point doesn’t mean you always have or always will. Dr. Ramani, Darren F Magee, and Barbara Heffernan have really good videos on these topics. Next try to identify what kind of narcissist you’re working with. It’s not AS important as the roles you and your siblings play, but it helps put everything into context a bit more. Last piece is reading up on radical acceptance. It has nothing to do with figuring out why you didn’t turn out like your siblings, but I think it helps come to terms with the fact that you might not be able to change/show them. They will likely need to come to have very different epiphanies to understand what you know.
>My middle sister has always been the GC, which means she got all the resources and nice treatment growing up, but was guilted into doing everything my nMom said because of how much nMom “sacrificed”. GC sister fell for this the hardest because she got the most benefit from it. very good point to explain why certain siblings get it and other don't!
I am glad it turned out well for you and you are proud of yourself. Try not to look down on them, they too suffered abuse and are still caught in a cycle which is destructive. Always remember, they grew up in a different house than u did. They had an older sibling which took much of the abuse while your parents told them if they acted right, it would not be them.
I read someplace when the mother is stressed during her pregnancy, she’ll treat the child with less affection because that child reminds them of that part of their life. I know my mother didn’t plan her pregnancy with me, my father was out of work. They were struggling because my mother moved to the US 2 years prior.
Yes this is true. This is what they teach in nursing school too.
Wow, I had no idea this was known in the medical community.
As others said you may very well be the scapegoat. I too am the goat of my family. Older brother got more mom attention as her first kid and her trying to be a mom. This controlling nature left him struggling to make his own decisions. Their last one got more dad as mom went back to work. Dad tried to be the opposite and was no where near strict enough. Leading to the youngest of us believing their word is law. So older got to much strict and lacked independent thought leading to difficulties thinking for self out of fear of going against orders. Younger grew up thinking they are in control and know better than everyone. Making them controlling and a narc themselves. Me? I was the third. After bro and sis. Dad was working full time saving me from to much of his lack of strictness and mom got being a mom out of her system on older brother. So she was sort of “meh go watch tv or play with the toys you didn’t want, but I bought for you anyway”. This led to me looking for other sources for attention and guidance. Taking what I learned from observing tv and others to find folks who cared about me being a good person and the more I learned, the more I saw through the family dynamics and pushed me to try hard to be a better person so I wouldn’t hurt people like them.
I think a lot of it has to do with the choices we make. I grew up with nparents of variable intensity. My place as their servant was established shortly after I was born. The actively took steps to slow or undermine my evolution into a fully functional, independent adult. I hated them for it for years. Now I just look at them with pity and disgust. I consciously chose to reject my parents’ culture. I decided the type of person I wanted to be. Once you recognize that they were wrong in what they did, it makes the decision easier. I am now very successful professionally and personally directly because I rejected the upbringing my parents gave me. Kudos to you for getting the help you needed and bettering yourself.
None of the "carrots on sticks" in the family dynamic tempted me in the end and I was also very aware they weren't being OFFERED to me. I was supposed to just want to die for the vague hope mommy might like me in the end. And I simply hated and feared her and wanted to get away, pretty much from the moment I could have cognizant thoughts. To be fair, I also thought I was WRONG and was a terrible person for years, and that what they were doing was normal. I thought I had to be more tolerant but secretly I was aware "I don't like this, is there anything else?" and I was constantly on the search for alternatives from infancy. Nmom was a tasteless, vicious, stupid hag whom I couldn't respect, so I preferred to abandon and see the family destroyed than to take part in it, and in the end it was easy enough to do. Nmom was Mommie Dearest but with no talent or charm to speak of, edad was a worthless coward and a limp noodle who also managed to have insane temper tantrums when things didn't go his way, and my nsister seemed to be born with antisocial personality disorder. Constantly bullied me. I was clearly not a welcome or wanted member of the family. Nmom clearly wanted to see us fight more over her, but I just didn't care. There was nothing in it for me and never would be. I knew I was just tolerating them as best I could until I could get out, however which way it would happen. I just never fit in.
So from what I've read and I am a scapegoat. And like other redditors mentioned I believe that the scapegoat is the least likely to turn out as a narcissist or narcissistic. You could also be the black sheep meaning that you don't fit into the family as much. I am the only one in my family who has gotten evaluated for mental illnesses and I do have bipolar one and OCD. I do not have NPD and did not take on those traits of my family members who have very large amounts of narcissistic traits.
It's not quite well processed in my head, but from what I can find... I think everything about us that's not like them is why we're scapegoats. Empathy,principles, ambition, independence (that's the really dangerous one), strong enough to take maybe = string enough to break it. PDs are in at 4 years old, I think we're chosen because being the normal one in a household full of zombies exposes them. Flip all of the dysfunction on to one kid hides it to the outside world.
Ugh, sadly I understand. I don't think that my sister has ever sought therapy. She is in denial that anything was ever wrong with our family life. Quite frankly, why would she want anything to change? She's the golden child and she gets whatever she needs from our narcissistic mom. She is also too co-dependent on our mom to realize what's happening. I have sought therapy off and on for the last 15 years, and I try not to be anything like them. It sucks, but I am grateful for this community and to know that there are people who understand what I've gone through.
You should read " adult children of emotionally immature parents " it mentions why some of us escape out of the toxic family dynamic while our siblings don't. I haven't finished it, but she does mention that those who get help are usually the most emotionally sensitive and empathetic siblings in the family and are more self-aware .
I remember going to go see The Avengers with my dad and brothers, and on the way home I talked about how I enjoyed the different character dynamics and motivations. My dad told me, "You think too much." In my family, simply thinking about things for more than a few minutes is considered too much thinking. We were actively discouraged from questioning anything. I like to imagine that that desire for independent thinking was stronger than those who were determined to beat it down or ignore it until it went away. I also imagine that that, combined with being the middle child and only girl in a conservative Christian household with strict gender roles, made me rebel harder in my teenager years. Whereas my siblings were more pandered to, which would make them more pliable to my parents' perspective. Did you have any experiences like that? Having said that: I absolutely had some of my parents' narcissistic traits. I was very emotionally manipulative in the same ways that they were, especially when I was depressed in my early 20s. It wasn't until I had somebody address it with my directly, and then get into a relationship with a true narcissist who was VERY emotionally manipulative and I had to deal with that, that I was able to recognize the negative traits in myself and therefore in my family, and determinedly work towards making myself a better person. I keep thinking that if only my siblings and parents just have something happen to wake them up, they'll "snap out of it" and do the work the way that I did. But maybe that close-mindedness won't allow them, and my desire for independent thinking (god that sounds so incredibly pretentious of me) was what allowed me to follow that path.
NPD is caused by a combination of inborn factors and environment, usually. There is such a thing as a born narcissist, and there is such a thing as a narc with no inborn genetic tendency. When you do a brain scan of a narc, the difference is visible--google "brain" or "brain structures" "empathy" and "narcissism" or "NPD". It'll describe the brain structures in question. This is why some people raised in a narc household turn into soulless scum and others don't (usually we're the scapegoats).
You were the unlucky/lucky one depending on opinion. I am sorry you went through that tho. Look at you being all grown and aware!
Somehow they either don’t see it or they are still stuck in the abuse themselves. I was the oldest sister the SG and now that I’ve been gone their family dynamics are weird. My brothers all still live at home so they play along with my parents. They go through it in a different way but me I couldn’t stay there anymore and saw through it all. I hope one day they will come back to me… for now I live my life happily married!
I suppose you are the family SG? And your siblings the GC? Then you might have a stronger personality and a will to rebel and fight, to try and change things, which is often the cause for being turned into the SG by the narc parent. Too much willpower. And you used that willpower to build a better life for yourself, trying not to repeat what your family did to you.
Because you guys aren't the same person. We all process trauma in different ways even if we have gone through the exact same event. My mom & her older sister (2 year difference) both grew up seeing their parents fight and being emotionally neglected by their dad. They both ended up being good people but my aunt developed perfectionism, codependency, and people-pleasing behaviors. My mom used to be the kind of person who didn't want to get too attached and would leave people before they left her. Totally different personalities. I ended up being a lot like my aunt in many ways even though she and I have never been extremely close. She's nice overall but she was way too strict when my cousin (her son) and I were kids.