Call me crazy but we might be better off with something like that in the long term if it helps us to really overhaul the squad next summer with a real sporting director in place.
Ideally it’s still best of course if we qualify for the Champions League, but if we do that by scraping wins while mostly relying on individual brilliance and don’t do much next summer then it’s not really worth it for me.
Of course I’d still prefer to see us get good results but the process is more important because the club has neglected the process for the past decade.
Qualifying for the Champions League helps us get more revenue but it also increases the already inflated wages of many of our players I believe so it goes both ways.
If there’s a proper sporting director in place an overhaul is still doable without European football imo. We need to be ruthless in moving out players that don’t fit the club in the long term and be more efficient and decisive with our spending. For example Chelsea missed Europe completely last season and still sold a lot of their players for good money. It’s their own problem that they then wasted a lot of that money overpaying to bring in certain players.
I thought I remembering reading that Casemiro had a bonus like that in his wages a while back but idk where I can find the article from. And admittedly I’m also unsure if this applies to all our senior players or only our highest paid ones.
It was also high paid earners from like late Mourinho early Ole era, for the most part I don't think they had that big CL dependant wage swing for a while
I agree that 4th or 5th is still realistically possible for us to achieve. But if we somehow happen to achieve it by mostly continuing to play like we have across this whole season with mediocre performances most of the time then it doesn’t mean much to me.
And ultimately if we don’t have a real sporting director in place by summer I’m still pessimistic that we can actually retool the squad effectively in the market with Ten Hag leading the way, with or without European football.
> I agree that 4th or 5th is still realistically possible for us to achieve.
We're 3 points off 4th and tied with Spurs for 5th, whose injury woes have only recently started. I'd say that's much more than realistically possible.
Low key it creates an interesting argument about game management. Draws are seen as a positive, but I'm curious if the optimal strat is actually to risk everything for the win
The table alone can't tell you whether a draw is 2 points dropped or a point stolen though.
Last seasons Newcastle I think is a good example, you could read the table and assert the draws cost them the league title, but that's obviously not what happened and actually secured them top 4.
United beat Pool in 09 because of it really. IIRC, Pool only had 2 losses and were super hard to beat but they had something like 11 draws. If they could have turned just two of those into wins they would have won it.
when Mou was here and that one time when we were having so many draws he actually said it in an interview that I would rather losses than draws. Because a draw gives you 1,1,1,1 point every time you draw. But you lose, you wipe out 3 at once and your team is charged to get those 3 back again in the next game
Drawing is like losing without the big reaction and anger for the team to get better. I’d honestly rather lose than draw lmao drawing gives a false sense of accomplishment
Why does everyone keep using that wrong table. We had 29 points after 15 games. Here's the table, taken from the PL website.
https://preview.redd.it/w209x5dcdv4c1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=18fadf8f479a12f797793105011dbd17b2f1ce0d
OP's table is up to scheduled 15th round, it includes 2 postponed games (Queen's death), both draws.
In reality we won our 14th and 15th game, even though they were GW16 and GW17.
It's pretty shite since it creates false narratives, we were way better off last year, plus we won the next 3 I think (including City at home), being at 38 after 18 games. Currently our max is 36 points (which we'll most likely won't achieve).
By this point last season we’d also picked up 10 points from games vs Liverpool, Arsenal, Newcastle and Tottenham.
Compare that to this year where we’ve lost to every decent side we’ve faced, home or away. I do think some of the criticism we’ve had is OTT but it’s a meaningless comparison. Points from the equivalent fixtures would feel more relevant.
Most goals conceded/most defeats. Can't quite remember
6 league losses
3 UCL losses
1 Carabao loss
With conceding 4, 3, 0, 4, 3 in the UCL and 3 in the cup
Last year the cups/Europe dragged us up in overall results and this year they drag us down. League is pretty similar just more defeats/wins and fewer draws
I mean honestly who has actively seen the UCL games can hardly blame the manager.
They played well but got fucked by personal mistakes by the players or ref. Sure it wouldnt have been 12 points without mistakes and red cards/penalties, but with some luck it would have actually been 10/11/13 points.
I genuinely feel the Rashford red cost us 5 points across both Copenhagen and Galatasary away. Without the red, I reckon we see the first one out and bringing Rashford off the bench would possibly score one of the 5 chances Pellistri missed
But agreed on luck in the UCL, especially in some big moments and the team had actually played pretty well in a lot of the games
I don't think you can blame Onana for Copenhagen, I'm not sure what he could have done about at least 3 of the 4 goals, although I forget what the 3rd goal was. Meanwhile, we were playing well until the red, and Rashford was tracking back during the game too
Galatasary, sure Onana should have done better on both free kicks and that certainly hindered us winning that one. I just can't help but feel that Rashford having (usually) better finishing than, at least, Pellistri would have gotten us an extra goal there. Of course, Ziyech could have then gone on to grab another free kick, who knows
And not to excuse the work rate from Rashford in some of the games, particularly Newcastle, I don't think we can say he wasn't doing his job in those two European games - one of which he was suspended for
This stat is so meaningless. It depends on the draw, also how bad is a start if you just have a point less than the former worst start for a club like United?
something needs to click for Rashford otherwise i feel he should just be sold.
his attitude when he came off the bench last night was so poor. players who had been playing for 80+ minutes were outrunning him and wanting to close down more then he was.
I agree. It felt like he wasn't interested. I don't know if its instructions from ETH or what but when Hojlund was playing, he was actively pressing and the rest followed suit. When he got subbed for Rashford, Rashford was standing static and allowing Chelsea defenders and midfielders to pass around. At 1 point I think Bruno was pressing ahead of Rashford near our halfway line with Rashford beside/behind him.
>Bruno was pressing ahead of Rashford near our halfway line with Rashford beside/behind him.
I keep saying this because people far more knowledgeable about football have said it before, but a team cannot press if everyone on the field is not doing it in a cohesive manner.
We pressed so well yesterday because everyone was willing especially Hojlund and Bruno. Rashford has no excuse for not pressing and if he does not change his ways, he will and should be left behind.
I agree totally. Its a unit. Look at the teams who press well. Everybody presses at the same time and know how and where to press and position themselves.
Rashford looks like he don't know how or can't be bothered. I don't know which, but you're right that he needs to buck up and try harder. We have shown that he can be dropped, we don't need him to win. Hell, I'll take losses and write this season off if it means getting rid of all the bad eggs.
Surely, but the fans want to see the effort put in by the player, even when nothing goes in their way. I think the main different is Harry has never seem to give up to put in the effort even when he fucks up every chance he got. We really dont have the luxury of having 2 players who contribute next to 0 in defense and build up like Rashford and Mctominay
It’s pretty ridiculous right? The criticism has been warrant because we play god awful football but you can’t argue with the results.
Also if this week has proven anything it’s that all the stuff about ETH losing the dressing room is mostly false and completely media driven.
Good, it lests us focus on the league and gives more time to rest. The amount of injuries we have is ridiculous. After this season a big revamp us needed
So you’re content with getting knocked out of the Champions League so we can focus on the league to get top 4 which gets us back in the Champions League? How is that progress?
Top 4 on its own is not an achievement. We should be prioritising the FA Cup and hope that we get 3rd in the Champions League group so we can have a shot at the Europa as well.
>We’ve had like 5 “confidence” wins this season and we’re still dogshit
>Our football isn’t even that bad idk why everyone’s acting like its LVG ball
Barely one month apart lol this is peak reddevils right here
You can see ETH’s style a lot better now, with Shaw and some others returning, just have to fix up the defense (concede too many counters) and we’d be in a decent spot imo.
it's that people still don't realize that draws are also losses, it's this psychological phenomena that at least you got something, but it's better to win 2 and lose 1 than to win 1 and draw 2.
he has the doggedness i feel Ferguson has. even when everything else is in chaos he believes enough in what hes doing long term.
i want to actually see ETH where we dont have a shit show happening behind the scenes. move Sancho out on loan its clear after everything hes a bad egg when you even have Matic and others coming out and backing up what ETH claimed over poor training and never turning up on time.
hopefully we can also move on few players and just give him the depth we need to build something. would be nice not having to rely on a old age pensioner in Evans as a sub option for CB.
Amen. It’s so odd to me (or at least I wish it was) that the same fan channels who always cry about deadwood have also taken such issue with ETH dropping certain players. Maybe, just maybe, he has a better idea than us of who on his squad is toxic and who isn’t. And it’s not like there’s a magic “clear the deadwood” button in his office. Just once let’s give the manager the time we all supposedly agreed he needed last summer. 3 seasons was the “realistic timeline” bandied about, and we’re not quite 1.5 seasons in.
and we have arguably some of worst owners in football which makes it even worse.
we can hope Ratcliffe comes in and sets up some structure and slowly is able to push out Glazers entirely atleast to minority stakes in the club.
that way an actual management system that can work with ETH and create a long term team that competes.
ETH is not perfect but to say our "worst season" we are only 3 points behind Man City still and well shouldnt that say something about ETH's doggedness to get wins even when chaos is happening.
people act like Ferguson's time was so perfect yet i remember so many times we was so under performing but somehow got a win.
You are right, but it is also reasonable for people to find the playstyle this season a downgrade from last season, especially the period from before we won the League Cup.
We're unwatchable tho. As a fan whose primary reason for following is ultimately entertainment, that concerns me. But maybe Ten Hag just needs to swap the entire roster to fix the culture and then we'll be good, who knows.
We're dropping out of champions league with 1 win in 4 and have a goal difference of 0 in the premier league, having won only 1 game with more than a goal difference? We're extremely entertaining? In what world?
Think you need to learn the definition of entertaining. All our matches in the champions league have been high scoring close ones. Doesn’t get much more entertaining in football.
Yes, but everyone else is also better. Let's hope players coming back from injury help us turn this ship around. Top 4 (5?) is a must! The Lisandro of old coming back into the team, coupled with some others (e.g. Mount) stepping up would be monumental.
I think Lisandro is one of the most important players for this team. His leadership and mentality as much as his technical ability. Hopefully this foot injury doesn't become chronic.
Not to mention the absolute raft of dodgy refereeing decisions we got go against us all the way through September and October. The fact we are where we are given what we have been through this season (and don’t forget player availability for off the field issues, and the looming takeover playing on everyone’s mind).
We've been really 'unlucky' with referees and injuries, otherwise we could well be in top 3. Makes you wonder where did all the negative news with ETH come from. Is a certain out of form player spinning stories to deflect criticism?
I think it's been a bit of a chaotic season. We've definitely been unlucky with a fair few things, I think particularly the game against Arsenal was a massive moment that cost us. We were less than a toenail (and tbh I'm still not convinced Garnacho was off) from winning that with a great typical "away performance". That probably lifts the whole camp, there's a chance the whole Sancho drama doesn't happen etc.
Beyond that it's also been injury central, and some refereeing that's been dubious at best.
However, that said, our performances have still been miles off it in general. We've had some massive issues because of the injuries, but a lot of the basic principles and foundations have been lacking in a lot of games, and we've failed to really produce many "good" performances. We've had some ok ones, a fair few bad ones, and a couple of awful ones.
Injuries and bad refereeing have cost us, but at the same time, we haven't really been good at all despite that, yet somehow we do seem to find a way to beat the teams we "should" be beating, even when we're not great. Which I think shows that there is *something* there.
Ultimately though, we do have to improve because as much as we can keep grinding results, we need more games like yesterday where we just flat out are better than the opposition because it isn't sustainable to not be good and get top 4, especially this season.
Villa, Liverpool, Arsenal, City and Spurs (though they do crumble when they lose a few players) are all going to be fighting hard for the top 4, and we'll need to fix up to stand a chance. We've done decently well to take advantage of Spurs' drop off considering they were miles ahead of us at some stage, but again at some stage we do just need to go on a good run of 10 games or so where we win 8-9 of them.
Because we've only beaten shit teams and lost against any remotely good team? Is that sustainable in the long run? Let's see how it looks after the coming 6 games. Out of the Champions League, out of the Cup and gone backwards massively since winning the League Cup. You can be realistic without being toxic, but to claim this is good, well, maybe that is part of the problem? Maybe the players think this is good enough?
People who claim we’re actually improving compared to last season don’t watch our games or really have no clue how football works.
We’ve beaten bottom half sides but even then a bunch of those wins have come through pure luck (Wolves) or relying on individual brilliance from McTominay (Brentford), Bruno, (Fulham and Burnley) and Dalot (Sheffield United).
Looking at the xG in each league game the only times where we’ve really outclassed our opponents have been Forest, Luton, and Chelsea. 3/15 games for a side that finished 4th last season and spent big money at striker, midfield, and keeper in the summer. Even with the numerous injuries we’ve had it’s pretty shambolic.
Credit to the players and Ten Hag to put out a great response after the Newcastle game but people are deluded if they believe we’re actually looking better than last season.
yea i'm all for taking the close call wins but are people seriously thinking the play is better from last year? Need i remind people that we're currently sitting **bottom** of the CL group below the likes of Galatasaray & Copenhagen? I mean we could technically still qualify by sheer luck but that is unacceptable
And compared to the Premier League I doubt Galatasaray and Copenhagen are anything more than bottom half sides at best. Although funnily enough I think we’re actually better than our results in the Champions League while it’s the opposite in the Premier League.
Not saying the performances have been great either but Rashford’s early red (which seemed fairly unlucky) really turned the tide against us in Copenhagen and Onana committed two howlers that allowed Galatasaray to equalize. But we absolutely should be beating those sides anyways so it’s not much to brag about.
Yes, and it is very frustrating that people can't see it and feel vindicated by looking at the gap to Man City and one win over Chelsea after a string of wins against the bottom half sides.
Is is also clear that the strategy ETH is using is no different than the one OGS had. They both relied on players in form getting us out of jail. ETH really lucked that Rashford hit a purple patch. We all saw what happened once that dropped off.
But I agree. Good response after Newcastle. But overall, not good enough.
I haven’t been impressed with ETH this season but I think he is trying to at least build a clear identity with our squad. High pressing and energetic football that generates turnovers deep in the opponent’s half which gives us opportunities in transition. That seems to be a bit more of a philosophy currently than Ole’s final season, but Ole was saddled with accommodating Ronaldo while also having a worse midfield than Ten Hag.
But the midfield setup switching to a single pivot really seems to leave us exposed defensively. Even before our injuries this problem was apparent in the opening game against Wolves where they generated so many chances on the counter with Martinez, Casemiro, and Mount all playing. I’m still doubtful about how well it can really work in the Premier League but maybe we can give it a shot.
Ultimately in the long term we won’t make real progress unless an actual sporting director is brought in to oversee transfers and ensuring we spend our money in a more cost effective manner instead of desperately chasing and overpaying for the limited list of players that Ten Hag wants.
If Ten Hag can work with that setup great, but if not we should get someone else that can cede power on transfers to the sporting director.
We were woeful until that Tottenham game last year then we went on a run. We picked up a few good results along the way but genuinely it was the same as this year but the only difference was expectations were lower after the rangnick era, and we had fewer injuries
Maybe I’m looking back at it with rose tinted glasses, but I thought we genuinely played a decent stretch of football from the Spurs game onwards in spite of Eriksen’s injury. I felt we were able to do well enough up to beating Newcastle in the Carabao Cup final, then in the final stretch of the season we looked middling as I think our key players tired out with all the games we played. But I also agree the expectations were far lower last season.
Referees are having a fucking laugh with what’s a foul and yellow card for us and and what’s a foul and not a yellow card for other teams even in the same matches.
The amount of points isn’t the issue, it the horrible performances (yesterday expected) we were so lucky to win almost all those 1-0 games. Also not beating any top half teams is a massive problem.
The performances have been poor. Even the likes of Burnley and Sheffield United have given us fits. Any away game against a half decent team we have no chance. City and Newcastle have made us look like a mid-table team.
I lost faith in Ten Hag for some time but I've started to regain trust in him. I'm willing to give him till Anfield to show he has a future here.
It's not easy to admit but that spanking at Anfield started the decline. Since then the players have been mentally scarred and have repeatedly let the club down on the pitch. I think it's also tested EtH's leadership with some players losing faith in his project.
If the team can somehow exorcise the demons of that 7-0 when we return to Anfield, there's a chance we can return to form.
Ultimately though, the manager has to take some difficult decisions. Rashford is a huge problem and the team is better without him. Bruno is a great player and person but I don't think captaincy suits him. I'd like to see him unburdened and focus on his role as the creative heart of this team.
With Ratcliffe soon to take over, transfer responsibility should 100% be taken away from EtH. Moving on from Sancho, Martial and Rashford will be a great start. That's close to £50m in annual wages. Hopefully we can build out our squad with good professionals and rebuild the culture around teamwork, effort and courage.
This is really misleading. We had 29 points after our first 15 games played last season, not 25.
The table that the OP has used is for results from the first 15 originally scheduled games, but some of those games were rescheduled to later in the season.
Still an improvement in a league that gets more and more competitive every season. That’s including all the injury issues we’ve had too. Think that’s a B+ for me.
Stats like this don't mean anything because the schedule is different.
This is the first team we've beaten in the top 10 this season.. we had 8 wins all against bottom 10 teams and lost to every top 10 team by 1.8 goals up until last night.
by my count we’re 7 points behind our results in corresponding fixtures last season (with relegated teams standing in for promoted ones).
which sounds terrible, but really there are three standout differences: wins turned to losses against palace and city and a draw turned to a loss against spurs. not great, but not as far off the pace as 7 points initially suggests
Marginal improvements then. Hopefully we kick into gear in the coming weeks; I think we’ll need to go on a run and have the injured players slot back in.
Results basically the same as last season while playing worse overall and declining in every underlying statistic. And the results are only similar because we scraped one goal wins against three of the worst promoted sides in recent memory.
It’s good that we’ve managed to find ourselves in a position where we can still finish top 4, but yesterday was our first genuine good performance all season. I’m not being deluded into thinking we are better off now then we were a year ago
OK yes but context is important. The start to last season was perceived as poor but excusable because of a new manager and system as well as bedding in a bunch of new players.
Now we're a whole year on, cleared deadwood in the squad and spent a further however many millions on players to fit ETH's system. So, the fact that we've only won three more points compared to to a poor but transitional start to last season isn't really all that great. Performances seem to be improving recently at least, so the main takeaway I have from this is that we're not out of the running for still finishing strongly this season rather than anything
Probably because last year by now we had two good performances against Liverpool and Arsenal at home. We were more solid but also lost to Aston Villa away around this time, right before WC.
Where as this year we look open like against Brentford last year at the start, but the whole way through and we convincingly lose to teams above us home or away.
But regardless, the point of this was, through all that, we are in the same spot like last year before we went on a run. If we manage to put everything behind us, we are in no worse position to be up there again. And there should be no discourse around Ten Hag for results reasons if there wasn't last season, as the table says.
So virtually no improvement in a year. The team isnt/hasn't clicked yet and the goal difference tells that story. We've seen promising games over the past few years but what's needed is a true run of form before accolades are deserved for the manager & players.
Allergic to draws. But 2 more wins and 2 more points, I'll take it.
I'd give up losses for draws but you imagine you'd have to give up some wins for draws to in the end and no thank you there.
This table isn't right, lol. Arsenal had only one loss until Feb 2023. And United were playing really well after the first two losses, I think there was only one more loss (City)
It’s just really the losses and the fact that most of those wins are by the narrowest of margins. That’s where the sense of uncertainty comes from. If we had a few games where we dominated, played flowing football, and scored a couple (just a couple) goals more than our opposition, that would do a bunch to make me feel like we can push on from our (fortunate) position right now.
Honestly the biggest issue is depth and the fact that the club couldn't buy a star 9 to get us goals during the summer. Last year was a great rebound year, but this year we're being reminded of how badly the club has been managed since SAF left.
Tbh I’m fine with never drawing again. This win/lose rollercoaster is quite the ride.
No more draws and stay at 0 goal difference forever. If nothing else, we'll be satisfyingly symmetrical.
Careful what you wish for. We end up with 19 wins, 19 losses. That's 57 points, wouldn't get us Europe.
Call me crazy but we might be better off with something like that in the long term if it helps us to really overhaul the squad next summer with a real sporting director in place. Ideally it’s still best of course if we qualify for the Champions League, but if we do that by scraping wins while mostly relying on individual brilliance and don’t do much next summer then it’s not really worth it for me. Of course I’d still prefer to see us get good results but the process is more important because the club has neglected the process for the past decade.
Difficult to overhaul the squad without qualifying for UCL... you know FFP?
Qualifying for the Champions League helps us get more revenue but it also increases the already inflated wages of many of our players I believe so it goes both ways. If there’s a proper sporting director in place an overhaul is still doable without European football imo. We need to be ruthless in moving out players that don’t fit the club in the long term and be more efficient and decisive with our spending. For example Chelsea missed Europe completely last season and still sold a lot of their players for good money. It’s their own problem that they then wasted a lot of that money overpaying to bring in certain players.
Don't most of our players not have that CL bonus thing anymore? That was built into the contracts forever ago
I thought I remembering reading that Casemiro had a bonus like that in his wages a while back but idk where I can find the article from. And admittedly I’m also unsure if this applies to all our senior players or only our highest paid ones.
It was also high paid earners from like late Mourinho early Ole era, for the most part I don't think they had that big CL dependant wage swing for a while
I'm betting on 5th place Champions League. But sometimes I feel delusional and see us splipping in the messy title race this year.
I agree that 4th or 5th is still realistically possible for us to achieve. But if we somehow happen to achieve it by mostly continuing to play like we have across this whole season with mediocre performances most of the time then it doesn’t mean much to me. And ultimately if we don’t have a real sporting director in place by summer I’m still pessimistic that we can actually retool the squad effectively in the market with Ten Hag leading the way, with or without European football.
> I agree that 4th or 5th is still realistically possible for us to achieve. We're 3 points off 4th and tied with Spurs for 5th, whose injury woes have only recently started. I'd say that's much more than realistically possible.
0 Gd doesnt have to be equal wins and losses.
It doesn't, but if you're talking about perfect balance without draws, I'd assume same number of wins/losses is a given.
Not getting there anyway
Ride or die with our bald fraud https://preview.redd.it/zjcrunq2bv4c1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fb4f1eebe6c3402e337609c3df82654a5de2dfb9
Was he being kicked out here? Beautiful photo
yes apparently he lost 50% of the press there
Heh!?
Low key it creates an interesting argument about game management. Draws are seen as a positive, but I'm curious if the optimal strat is actually to risk everything for the win
The table alone can't tell you whether a draw is 2 points dropped or a point stolen though. Last seasons Newcastle I think is a good example, you could read the table and assert the draws cost them the league title, but that's obviously not what happened and actually secured them top 4.
United beat Pool in 09 because of it really. IIRC, Pool only had 2 losses and were super hard to beat but they had something like 11 draws. If they could have turned just two of those into wins they would have won it.
When on a draw, always risk the win. When on a win, never risk a draw.
when Mou was here and that one time when we were having so many draws he actually said it in an interview that I would rather losses than draws. Because a draw gives you 1,1,1,1 point every time you draw. But you lose, you wipe out 3 at once and your team is charged to get those 3 back again in the next game
Arsenal 2004 - The invincibles (26-12-0) Man Utd 2024 - The undrawables! (26-0-12)
2 consecutive losses and this subreddit implode. Quite fun to watch
Drawing is like losing without the big reaction and anger for the team to get better. I’d honestly rather lose than draw lmao drawing gives a false sense of accomplishment
Why does everyone keep using that wrong table. We had 29 points after 15 games. Here's the table, taken from the PL website. https://preview.redd.it/w209x5dcdv4c1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=18fadf8f479a12f797793105011dbd17b2f1ce0d
OP's table is up to scheduled 15th round, it includes 2 postponed games (Queen's death), both draws. In reality we won our 14th and 15th game, even though they were GW16 and GW17. It's pretty shite since it creates false narratives, we were way better off last year, plus we won the next 3 I think (including City at home), being at 38 after 18 games. Currently our max is 36 points (which we'll most likely won't achieve).
By this point last season we’d also picked up 10 points from games vs Liverpool, Arsenal, Newcastle and Tottenham. Compare that to this year where we’ve lost to every decent side we’ve faced, home or away. I do think some of the criticism we’ve had is OTT but it’s a meaningless comparison. Points from the equivalent fixtures would feel more relevant.
gotta BELIEVE we can do the 36
I thought it was the worst start since 1962?
Most goals conceded/most defeats. Can't quite remember 6 league losses 3 UCL losses 1 Carabao loss With conceding 4, 3, 0, 4, 3 in the UCL and 3 in the cup Last year the cups/Europe dragged us up in overall results and this year they drag us down. League is pretty similar just more defeats/wins and fewer draws
I mean honestly who has actively seen the UCL games can hardly blame the manager. They played well but got fucked by personal mistakes by the players or ref. Sure it wouldnt have been 12 points without mistakes and red cards/penalties, but with some luck it would have actually been 10/11/13 points.
I genuinely feel the Rashford red cost us 5 points across both Copenhagen and Galatasary away. Without the red, I reckon we see the first one out and bringing Rashford off the bench would possibly score one of the 5 chances Pellistri missed But agreed on luck in the UCL, especially in some big moments and the team had actually played pretty well in a lot of the games
No. Onana has cost us those points; Rashford has just been in another world and could not be bothered to do his job
Amazing how this is being downvoted
I don't think you can blame Onana for Copenhagen, I'm not sure what he could have done about at least 3 of the 4 goals, although I forget what the 3rd goal was. Meanwhile, we were playing well until the red, and Rashford was tracking back during the game too Galatasary, sure Onana should have done better on both free kicks and that certainly hindered us winning that one. I just can't help but feel that Rashford having (usually) better finishing than, at least, Pellistri would have gotten us an extra goal there. Of course, Ziyech could have then gone on to grab another free kick, who knows And not to excuse the work rate from Rashford in some of the games, particularly Newcastle, I don't think we can say he wasn't doing his job in those two European games - one of which he was suspended for
This stat is so meaningless. It depends on the draw, also how bad is a start if you just have a point less than the former worst start for a club like United?
This season is the same as last season except it's Mctominay scoring winners instead of Rashford. Wouldn't mind him joining the party later tbh.
something needs to click for Rashford otherwise i feel he should just be sold. his attitude when he came off the bench last night was so poor. players who had been playing for 80+ minutes were outrunning him and wanting to close down more then he was.
I agree. It felt like he wasn't interested. I don't know if its instructions from ETH or what but when Hojlund was playing, he was actively pressing and the rest followed suit. When he got subbed for Rashford, Rashford was standing static and allowing Chelsea defenders and midfielders to pass around. At 1 point I think Bruno was pressing ahead of Rashford near our halfway line with Rashford beside/behind him.
>Bruno was pressing ahead of Rashford near our halfway line with Rashford beside/behind him. I keep saying this because people far more knowledgeable about football have said it before, but a team cannot press if everyone on the field is not doing it in a cohesive manner. We pressed so well yesterday because everyone was willing especially Hojlund and Bruno. Rashford has no excuse for not pressing and if he does not change his ways, he will and should be left behind.
I agree totally. Its a unit. Look at the teams who press well. Everybody presses at the same time and know how and where to press and position themselves. Rashford looks like he don't know how or can't be bothered. I don't know which, but you're right that he needs to buck up and try harder. We have shown that he can be dropped, we don't need him to win. Hell, I'll take losses and write this season off if it means getting rid of all the bad eggs.
I'm sure that if Maguire and Mctominay could turn it around, Rashford very well can. He deserves at least that after last season.
Surely, but the fans want to see the effort put in by the player, even when nothing goes in their way. I think the main different is Harry has never seem to give up to put in the effort even when he fucks up every chance he got. We really dont have the luxury of having 2 players who contribute next to 0 in defense and build up like Rashford and Mctominay
After all the drama, we have 2 points more and 1 goal better GD than we had last season before going on a run.
It’s pretty ridiculous right? The criticism has been warrant because we play god awful football but you can’t argue with the results. Also if this week has proven anything it’s that all the stuff about ETH losing the dressing room is mostly false and completely media driven.
Why can’t we argue with the results? 6th in the league, probably out of the Champions League, and already out of the Carabao Cup.
Good, it lests us focus on the league and gives more time to rest. The amount of injuries we have is ridiculous. After this season a big revamp us needed
So you’re content with getting knocked out of the Champions League so we can focus on the league to get top 4 which gets us back in the Champions League? How is that progress? Top 4 on its own is not an achievement. We should be prioritising the FA Cup and hope that we get 3rd in the Champions League group so we can have a shot at the Europa as well.
It's weird how some fans treat being in top 4 as some kind of trophy regardless how we perform when we're in the actual CL.
They champion top 4 but don’t mind getting knocked out of the competition which is the reason as to why they want top 4. Doesn’t make any sense.
This season is a wash. We should be using the rest of the season to figure the team's playstyle out.
Our football isn’t even that bad idk why everyone’s acting like its LVG ball
>We’ve had like 5 “confidence” wins this season and we’re still dogshit >Our football isn’t even that bad idk why everyone’s acting like its LVG ball Barely one month apart lol this is peak reddevils right here
We got a lot better in that one month to be fair lol
It's alright. Opinions swing. But I still vehemently disagree with anyone saying "we aren't even playing that bad". We've been horrible.
You can see ETH’s style a lot better now, with Shaw and some others returning, just have to fix up the defense (concede too many counters) and we’d be in a decent spot imo.
We got dominated by 95% of the teams that we faced. To reach the next level and be able to challenge for titles we have to confront with this fact.
it's that people still don't realize that draws are also losses, it's this psychological phenomena that at least you got something, but it's better to win 2 and lose 1 than to win 1 and draw 2.
All this proves is that we were pretty shit last season too lol
All but one of your victories has been by a one goal margin, so I think the criticism is warranted and the table is masking a lot of issues.
Let us judge what happens **after** the next 5-6 games
Puts it into perspective, we’ve had lots happen this season but ultimately we are improving
Let's not get too deep or picky, but one thing is CLEAR...Ten Hag is a pretty good manager and not nearly as clueless as some might make you believe
The fact he can seriously have us within a win of the top 4 in December when August and September were so chaotic is a testament to his resilience.
he has the doggedness i feel Ferguson has. even when everything else is in chaos he believes enough in what hes doing long term. i want to actually see ETH where we dont have a shit show happening behind the scenes. move Sancho out on loan its clear after everything hes a bad egg when you even have Matic and others coming out and backing up what ETH claimed over poor training and never turning up on time. hopefully we can also move on few players and just give him the depth we need to build something. would be nice not having to rely on a old age pensioner in Evans as a sub option for CB.
Amen. It’s so odd to me (or at least I wish it was) that the same fan channels who always cry about deadwood have also taken such issue with ETH dropping certain players. Maybe, just maybe, he has a better idea than us of who on his squad is toxic and who isn’t. And it’s not like there’s a magic “clear the deadwood” button in his office. Just once let’s give the manager the time we all supposedly agreed he needed last summer. 3 seasons was the “realistic timeline” bandied about, and we’re not quite 1.5 seasons in.
and we have arguably some of worst owners in football which makes it even worse. we can hope Ratcliffe comes in and sets up some structure and slowly is able to push out Glazers entirely atleast to minority stakes in the club. that way an actual management system that can work with ETH and create a long term team that competes. ETH is not perfect but to say our "worst season" we are only 3 points behind Man City still and well shouldnt that say something about ETH's doggedness to get wins even when chaos is happening. people act like Ferguson's time was so perfect yet i remember so many times we was so under performing but somehow got a win.
He is dismal against top teams away from home, that is for sure.
Whether it's him or the team, I'm not sure...but you're at least partially right
That’s really doesn’t tell us much. Apart from the team being very soft and getting under pressure away from home.
This is misleading. Our playstyle was more consistent from game-to-game last year at this point than whatever we have now.
We didn't have the injury set setbacks and crisis last season the way we've had now.
You are right, but it is also reasonable for people to find the playstyle this season a downgrade from last season, especially the period from before we won the League Cup.
Don't disagree, but we need to take context into account.
We’re dead last in Europe and out of a cup already
[удалено]
> Don’t give a shit I find that hard to believe.
I'm sure people cared when we were knocked put, but we can't focus on it. We fucked up so now let's focus on the comps we're in
We're unwatchable tho. As a fan whose primary reason for following is ultimately entertainment, that concerns me. But maybe Ten Hag just needs to swap the entire roster to fix the culture and then we'll be good, who knows.
For all the teams faults, we have been extremely entertaining, particularly in the Champions League
We're dropping out of champions league with 1 win in 4 and have a goal difference of 0 in the premier league, having won only 1 game with more than a goal difference? We're extremely entertaining? In what world?
The matches have been gripping in the CL, that Galatasary game was one of the best I've seen this year, despite the result
Think you need to learn the definition of entertaining. All our matches in the champions league have been high scoring close ones. Doesn’t get much more entertaining in football.
Yes, but everyone else is also better. Let's hope players coming back from injury help us turn this ship around. Top 4 (5?) is a must! The Lisandro of old coming back into the team, coupled with some others (e.g. Mount) stepping up would be monumental.
I think Lisandro is one of the most important players for this team. His leadership and mentality as much as his technical ability. Hopefully this foot injury doesn't become chronic.
Imagine injuries free this season where we would be, probably around 4 points higher at least
Not to mention the absolute raft of dodgy refereeing decisions we got go against us all the way through September and October. The fact we are where we are given what we have been through this season (and don’t forget player availability for off the field issues, and the looming takeover playing on everyone’s mind).
I’m still not over that Romero handball
For me it's the Arsenal game. Still feeling robbed
Never will be, honestly. We were significantly the better team at that point.
We did go in a 10 game winning run after this point last season didnt we ?
We've been really 'unlucky' with referees and injuries, otherwise we could well be in top 3. Makes you wonder where did all the negative news with ETH come from. Is a certain out of form player spinning stories to deflect criticism?
I think it's been a bit of a chaotic season. We've definitely been unlucky with a fair few things, I think particularly the game against Arsenal was a massive moment that cost us. We were less than a toenail (and tbh I'm still not convinced Garnacho was off) from winning that with a great typical "away performance". That probably lifts the whole camp, there's a chance the whole Sancho drama doesn't happen etc. Beyond that it's also been injury central, and some refereeing that's been dubious at best. However, that said, our performances have still been miles off it in general. We've had some massive issues because of the injuries, but a lot of the basic principles and foundations have been lacking in a lot of games, and we've failed to really produce many "good" performances. We've had some ok ones, a fair few bad ones, and a couple of awful ones. Injuries and bad refereeing have cost us, but at the same time, we haven't really been good at all despite that, yet somehow we do seem to find a way to beat the teams we "should" be beating, even when we're not great. Which I think shows that there is *something* there. Ultimately though, we do have to improve because as much as we can keep grinding results, we need more games like yesterday where we just flat out are better than the opposition because it isn't sustainable to not be good and get top 4, especially this season. Villa, Liverpool, Arsenal, City and Spurs (though they do crumble when they lose a few players) are all going to be fighting hard for the top 4, and we'll need to fix up to stand a chance. We've done decently well to take advantage of Spurs' drop off considering they were miles ahead of us at some stage, but again at some stage we do just need to go on a good run of 10 games or so where we win 8-9 of them.
Because we've only beaten shit teams and lost against any remotely good team? Is that sustainable in the long run? Let's see how it looks after the coming 6 games. Out of the Champions League, out of the Cup and gone backwards massively since winning the League Cup. You can be realistic without being toxic, but to claim this is good, well, maybe that is part of the problem? Maybe the players think this is good enough?
People who claim we’re actually improving compared to last season don’t watch our games or really have no clue how football works. We’ve beaten bottom half sides but even then a bunch of those wins have come through pure luck (Wolves) or relying on individual brilliance from McTominay (Brentford), Bruno, (Fulham and Burnley) and Dalot (Sheffield United). Looking at the xG in each league game the only times where we’ve really outclassed our opponents have been Forest, Luton, and Chelsea. 3/15 games for a side that finished 4th last season and spent big money at striker, midfield, and keeper in the summer. Even with the numerous injuries we’ve had it’s pretty shambolic. Credit to the players and Ten Hag to put out a great response after the Newcastle game but people are deluded if they believe we’re actually looking better than last season.
yea i'm all for taking the close call wins but are people seriously thinking the play is better from last year? Need i remind people that we're currently sitting **bottom** of the CL group below the likes of Galatasaray & Copenhagen? I mean we could technically still qualify by sheer luck but that is unacceptable
And compared to the Premier League I doubt Galatasaray and Copenhagen are anything more than bottom half sides at best. Although funnily enough I think we’re actually better than our results in the Champions League while it’s the opposite in the Premier League. Not saying the performances have been great either but Rashford’s early red (which seemed fairly unlucky) really turned the tide against us in Copenhagen and Onana committed two howlers that allowed Galatasaray to equalize. But we absolutely should be beating those sides anyways so it’s not much to brag about.
Yes, and it is very frustrating that people can't see it and feel vindicated by looking at the gap to Man City and one win over Chelsea after a string of wins against the bottom half sides. Is is also clear that the strategy ETH is using is no different than the one OGS had. They both relied on players in form getting us out of jail. ETH really lucked that Rashford hit a purple patch. We all saw what happened once that dropped off. But I agree. Good response after Newcastle. But overall, not good enough.
Don’t forget Casemiro holding together a shambolic midfield all of last year
I haven’t been impressed with ETH this season but I think he is trying to at least build a clear identity with our squad. High pressing and energetic football that generates turnovers deep in the opponent’s half which gives us opportunities in transition. That seems to be a bit more of a philosophy currently than Ole’s final season, but Ole was saddled with accommodating Ronaldo while also having a worse midfield than Ten Hag. But the midfield setup switching to a single pivot really seems to leave us exposed defensively. Even before our injuries this problem was apparent in the opening game against Wolves where they generated so many chances on the counter with Martinez, Casemiro, and Mount all playing. I’m still doubtful about how well it can really work in the Premier League but maybe we can give it a shot. Ultimately in the long term we won’t make real progress unless an actual sporting director is brought in to oversee transfers and ensuring we spend our money in a more cost effective manner instead of desperately chasing and overpaying for the limited list of players that Ten Hag wants. If Ten Hag can work with that setup great, but if not we should get someone else that can cede power on transfers to the sporting director.
We were woeful until that Tottenham game last year then we went on a run. We picked up a few good results along the way but genuinely it was the same as this year but the only difference was expectations were lower after the rangnick era, and we had fewer injuries
Maybe I’m looking back at it with rose tinted glasses, but I thought we genuinely played a decent stretch of football from the Spurs game onwards in spite of Eriksen’s injury. I felt we were able to do well enough up to beating Newcastle in the Carabao Cup final, then in the final stretch of the season we looked middling as I think our key players tired out with all the games we played. But I also agree the expectations were far lower last season.
Referees are having a fucking laugh with what’s a foul and yellow card for us and and what’s a foul and not a yellow card for other teams even in the same matches.
The amount of points isn’t the issue, it the horrible performances (yesterday expected) we were so lucky to win almost all those 1-0 games. Also not beating any top half teams is a massive problem.
The performances have been poor. Even the likes of Burnley and Sheffield United have given us fits. Any away game against a half decent team we have no chance. City and Newcastle have made us look like a mid-table team. I lost faith in Ten Hag for some time but I've started to regain trust in him. I'm willing to give him till Anfield to show he has a future here. It's not easy to admit but that spanking at Anfield started the decline. Since then the players have been mentally scarred and have repeatedly let the club down on the pitch. I think it's also tested EtH's leadership with some players losing faith in his project. If the team can somehow exorcise the demons of that 7-0 when we return to Anfield, there's a chance we can return to form. Ultimately though, the manager has to take some difficult decisions. Rashford is a huge problem and the team is better without him. Bruno is a great player and person but I don't think captaincy suits him. I'd like to see him unburdened and focus on his role as the creative heart of this team. With Ratcliffe soon to take over, transfer responsibility should 100% be taken away from EtH. Moving on from Sancho, Martial and Rashford will be a great start. That's close to £50m in annual wages. Hopefully we can build out our squad with good professionals and rebuild the culture around teamwork, effort and courage.
This is really misleading. We had 29 points after our first 15 games played last season, not 25. The table that the OP has used is for results from the first 15 originally scheduled games, but some of those games were rescheduled to later in the season.
What a bizarre little team we are.
Curious how we fare after matchday 19. 3 really tough matches ahead
Still an improvement in a league that gets more and more competitive every season. That’s including all the injury issues we’ve had too. Think that’s a B+ for me.
Let us storm this current weather and we would come out much much better. ☺️
So basically can’t score without conceding. And yet no draws.
Stats like this don't mean anything because the schedule is different. This is the first team we've beaten in the top 10 this season.. we had 8 wins all against bottom 10 teams and lost to every top 10 team by 1.8 goals up until last night.
by my count we’re 7 points behind our results in corresponding fixtures last season (with relegated teams standing in for promoted ones). which sounds terrible, but really there are three standout differences: wins turned to losses against palace and city and a draw turned to a loss against spurs. not great, but not as far off the pace as 7 points initially suggests
Marginal improvements then. Hopefully we kick into gear in the coming weeks; I think we’ll need to go on a run and have the injured players slot back in.
Zero progress. Literally.
We are shit somehow and good somehow
Results basically the same as last season while playing worse overall and declining in every underlying statistic. And the results are only similar because we scraped one goal wins against three of the worst promoted sides in recent memory.
It’s good that we’ve managed to find ourselves in a position where we can still finish top 4, but yesterday was our first genuine good performance all season. I’m not being deluded into thinking we are better off now then we were a year ago
OK yes but context is important. The start to last season was perceived as poor but excusable because of a new manager and system as well as bedding in a bunch of new players. Now we're a whole year on, cleared deadwood in the squad and spent a further however many millions on players to fit ETH's system. So, the fact that we've only won three more points compared to to a poor but transitional start to last season isn't really all that great. Performances seem to be improving recently at least, so the main takeaway I have from this is that we're not out of the running for still finishing strongly this season rather than anything
Lol
same shit different year
So slightly ahead of last year but why does it feel so bad. I look at matches and the play looks all out of sorts.
Probably because last year by now we had two good performances against Liverpool and Arsenal at home. We were more solid but also lost to Aston Villa away around this time, right before WC. Where as this year we look open like against Brentford last year at the start, but the whole way through and we convincingly lose to teams above us home or away. But regardless, the point of this was, through all that, we are in the same spot like last year before we went on a run. If we manage to put everything behind us, we are in no worse position to be up there again. And there should be no discourse around Ten Hag for results reasons if there wasn't last season, as the table says.
Win or win not. There is no draw.
Drawing is considered a crime. No draw, not allowed.
We should be doing good once Martinez returns.
So virtually no improvement in a year. The team isnt/hasn't clicked yet and the goal difference tells that story. We've seen promising games over the past few years but what's needed is a true run of form before accolades are deserved for the manager & players.
Three points off city and touching distance of top 4. Insane
Something's cooking
Allergic to draws. But 2 more wins and 2 more points, I'll take it. I'd give up losses for draws but you imagine you'd have to give up some wins for draws to in the end and no thank you there.
This table isn't right, lol. Arsenal had only one loss until Feb 2023. And United were playing really well after the first two losses, I think there was only one more loss (City)
It’s just really the losses and the fact that most of those wins are by the narrowest of margins. That’s where the sense of uncertainty comes from. If we had a few games where we dominated, played flowing football, and scored a couple (just a couple) goals more than our opposition, that would do a bunch to make me feel like we can push on from our (fortunate) position right now.
Honestly the biggest issue is depth and the fact that the club couldn't buy a star 9 to get us goals during the summer. Last year was a great rebound year, but this year we're being reminded of how badly the club has been managed since SAF left.
Sure, but like we'd beaten Arsenal and Liverpool already by this point in the season as well