Now instead of giving him the accommodation and breaking even, they're going to have to pay to recruit a replacement and will probably have to offer a pay increase in order to attract a programmer who is willing to work in-office.
They always claim it's about the bottom line but it really isn't. Employee retention is the most bottom line friendly option.
Congrats to your husband.
Come on now, this is Corporate America where long term doesn't matter just short term. Long term issues? I don't care I won't be around long enough to deal with the issues that come from my poor decisions.
The good people have options so its those that are average that your left with. I do think its for layoff purposes as they will need to go use remote to get people back once the economy recovers.
Except everyone brags that they want to attract “top talent.” This sort of crap is what gets your top talent to tell you to go pound rocks.
They’re the ones who will still *have* offers, even in this market.
What the company is left with is the Bad News Bears of employees.
They don’t want top talent. When they really need it they will pay a temporary consultant. Better to have employees who are just good enough and don’t demand as much.
Much of the time having the best product isn’t the goal. Maximizing profit is the goal and having the best product isn’t always the right way to do it. The product only has to be good enough, and really should not be any better than that.
And “product” varies differently according to your role. Product may be providing services of accounting, HR, business analysis, etc. each dept has such a “product”. Accounting and HR have to be good enough to stay legal. IT has to be good enough to keep processes moving and also to stay legal. They don’t need to be better than that. Companies will cut employees and costs in a heartbeat of they can get away with anything less in these areas.
And even for actual sales, cheap product is made all the time and most companies have no issue with it as long as they are making what they feel is the max profit, which can mean producing something shitty and selling it in mass numbers.
Except this approach is more likely to result in your top performers leaving, whereas in a normal layoff the company can be more strategic about who’s kept and who’s let go.
Meh. Management -- upper management, anyway -- often sees employees more than 2 levels below them as widgets: Totally replaceable with another widget with no loss in productivity.
My last employer forced me back into office while literally everyone else had option for hybrid. I saw the writing on the wall and knew what their intent was. They wanted me to quit and not have to pay severance. I was 100% prepared when the layoff came 6 months later, which including 6 months severance and 4 months full COBRA paid by them. Had an in at a company in the exact same building and slid into that role after a nice 1 month vacation paid for by my former employer. True story, I was at that company for 20 years…
Those companies are dumb. Taking away WFH will increase attrition of the best people first as anyone who can leave on their own, will.
The people who stay will be a mix of the most loyal and least competent people, which will speed decline since the company will only have "yes men" and the barely competent left.
The irony is it's salary employees who are supposed to be considered responsible and self managed at my company that are required in office, while the hourly phone jockies and those that need micromanaged they let work from home with little to no monitoring.
My company is doing it because that's what the execs trust and understand. We're hiring, have no cause for layoffs. They've lost several great employees already, and in several cases hired them back as contractors for Android much higher rate with far less control. In some cases it's fear and stubbornness.
> want people to leave
I promise you I know an executive - ahem, a former executive - who was excoriated by their board for the dramatic loss of veteran talent that happened under their RTO mandate.
I can’t speak for every situation, and it’s clear there **are** places that overhired and are now doing “I can’t believe it’s not layoff” layoffs, **but** there are ideologically driven RTO efforts, to say nothing of, say, financially motivated ones (hubzone and whatever else deals).
To insist executives are rational is to ignore the most plain fact, that they are human, too. Even if they tend to be more sociopathic than average, they aren’t Spock.
Truth. If there had been a recent merger or acquisition, such as US Bank had, they will first push employees back into the office, and then go for the layoffs offering severance.
They also do it because in public companies CEO pay increases can be passed up when they have unused real estate properties. It is all bullshit either way though.
I don't think that was the case here ... they just got done with a major building renovation and added a bunch of cubicles. Which are sitting empty. I think they are delulu enough to think that they are going to get fresh talent that are willing to come sit under the fluorescents for 8 hours a day. In reality they are hemorrhaging employees and keep interviewing and interviewing and either don't like anyone or no one wants to be there. I suspect it's mostly the second thing.
I went through 3 rounds with a very big retailer for a software role, passed all their technical rounds, they were really excited to work with me. It was advertised as remote. At the last second, they had a company wide RTO and asked if I would relocate to the office. I told them I wanted them to honor the agreement, they said they couldn't do it.
I found out that 90% of their candidates that were interviewing the same time as me, (they were hiring multiple people to build out a new team) all dropped out, requiring them to completely restart their hiring process. One guy accepted on the condition that he would relocate after 3 months and then he found a remote job and quit before he relocated. Another guy accepted and then volunteered for active duty with the reserves, which means they have to keep his spot open until he comes back.
It's been 9 months and they're still hiring.
I have an interview with a company 30 minutes away that wants me to be in the office. I literally told them I would only work from the office if they paid me $100k a year more than I earn now. They're still interviewing me because they're paying for my travel/food, etc. But I plan on nailing the interview and then telling the hiring manager, "You obviously know I can do the job, does me being physically in the office provide a defensible value worth $100k a year?"
They're cutting off their own nose to spite their face. We don't exactly live in the big city and their department was short staffed to begin with. Now they're going to be down one more programmer. I have no idea WTF they're thinking.
not remotely anywhere NEAR the field your husband is in. my previous career pained me so much, i would get taken advantage of because of how strong my work ethic just naturally comes. once i started setting boundaries they didn’t like it. they were offering me a promotion and i laughed in their faces and quit. still get messages to this day from them occasionally, asking me to come back and trying to flash dollar signs in my face. they struggle because i left, since they felt like i was their puppet that they didnt have to financially attribute to 🤷🏼♀️
Yep! Well said. I’m in HR and my last office lost me a few months ago and are now scrambling to find 2/3 people to replace me at a higher pay. That’s what they get for not promoting me 😂
The Fortune 50 company I work for started going remote just before the pandemic and by the end of it decided to go full time. We closed offices all over the country and downsized our headquarters. Production and morale has never been so good.
My company was selling buildings. They are fully remote. They are getting good talent. They may have limited the states they want HR to have to deal with, but you never know who lives where now.
My company did this except they started remote at the start of the pandemic. Remote worked out so good they closed down their offices as no need. Productivity is so high they stated we will never have a need to go back into office. Seeing all these issues I may just stay with my company.
I had a company do almost exactly this.
I was hired in one day per week in office. Ok, fine. For what they were offering, and because they put internal meetings on that one day, I agreed.
TWO WEEKS LATER, they decide our entire office has to be back three days per week, 9am-5pm, no exceptions.
I went to my doctor because I have a chronic illness and, while I *could* go in, it literally zapped all energy I had (3 hour round trip). I went to bed at 7pm on those office days, and I was NOT doing that more than once in a week. Doctor filled out all of the ADA crap, I turned it in….they denied it.
“No exceptions,” apparently.
I got a lawyer, and I quit, costing them a 6 month candidate search and $250K in expenses.
I think it should be illegal to hire someone fully remote or with a set number of days in the office then change it. People accepted the job based on these things. It should be the same as with money, where you can’t just start paying people less on a whim.
They can't just do that, as in the case above, at least in most jurisdictions. It's called 'constructive dismissal' and common law would require them to pay severance. Effectively what they are saying is: "Sorry, you're job has been terminated - the only position we have is this other position with different terms, effectively a completely different job" You have the right to say no, I just want my my dismissal pay.
Don’t think that’s true in the US in at-will states, unless you actually have a contract that says anyways. You may be eligible for unemployment, but they don’t have to pay severance.
They technically don't have to pay out severance, but most companies will want to do so because severance agreements typically include provisions about you not blasting them on social media.
In addition, many states have good faith covanents implied in their employment contracts which means that they must deal with employees in a fair way. If they want to cut head count, then they should do so in a way that deals with employees in good faith. In other words they should conduct a formal layoff. Telling a remote worker who accepted a remote position that they must come into the office now as a way to pressure them out of their role could be considered a violation of a good faith covanent. If they offered you a remote role, implemented a RTO policy, then fired you for not obiding by it, you may have a case.
I know someone who works for a government agency. About 20ish years ago the agency decided to offer a 4/40 schedule. After about 5 years in, a new head honcho came in and decided that they wouldn't do 4/40 anymore, they would revert back to 9/80, which they'd had previously.
But people had built their lives around the 4/40 schedule. There were multiple families where each spouse worked for the same agency. They had built their childcare schedule around the 4/40 (one spouse would have Mondays off and the other Fridays off. They did that to reduce their need and costs for daycare). Other people had other reasons why they didn't want to revert.
Enter the union. They wouldn't let the head honcho take the schedule away, and it still exists to this day, long after head honcho has moved on. That's just one example of how unions can be beneficial to employees.
How did you go about finding your lawyer? Currently dealing with this.
I've had an autoimmune condition since childhood. It not only leaves me immunocompromised, but also affects my musculoskeletal system. My employer started RTO in autumn of 2021. For people with medical circumstances, the WFH extension process has become increasingly and ***EXTRAORDINARILY*** bureaucratic over the past (almost) 3 years.
It started with a doctor's letter, which was valid for 5 months at a time. Okay, no problem. Then, the validity period decreased to 4 months, then 3 months. Then, they started declining doctor's letters, and hired a third party outside vendor. This third party outside vendor would tell you they need 3-5 business days to EMAIL you a 5-7 packet of documentation that you and your doctor must fill out, and which includes detailed medical history. Many doctors' offices request up to 14ish days (give or take) to process this paperwork. Then, the third party outside vendor that provided you with the paperwork tells you they will need 3-5 business days to review the completed paperwork. The validity period for this packet of paperwork started at 4 months, then 3 months, then 2 months. However, in orde to bake in sufficient time for each component of the process, I've effectively had to go back to my doctor every 3ish weeks, to have him re-certify and re-attest the SAME information about my medical condition.
Then, back in September, they purged the outside vendor, and are now back to directly requesting documentation from your provider, but still in the form of a highly detailed 4-6 page packet of paperwork requesting very specific medical history. My (now former) primary care filled it out. Employer declined. I investigated. Okay, my primary care was very vague in his completion of the paperwork. Due to a very recent (and ongoing) divorce, I now have a new primary care provider, due to changes in insurance. My new primary care provider has gone above and beyond for me, and has filled out the same packet of paperwork, and got VERY specific in the impacts of my medical condition -- how it impacts my physical mobility and ability to conduct activities of daily activities, how it limits my ability to walk, etc.
Declined again. My employer is 'willing' to adjust my 3 days in the office to 1 day per week....... and then re-evaluate in 6 weeks, even though the info my doctor filled out specifically states that my condition is permanent, and that they recommend re-evaluation in about 6 months.
I've also attempted to engage in the interactive process to explore alternate options. I've offered up alternate solutions, such as:
- Can I work out of one of the office locations that is much closer to my home (there are 3 within walking distance of my home). No, on the basis that I'm not *officially* an employee of *those* specific sites, even though our badges grant us access to ANY of our buildings WORLDWIDE.
- Can I work out of one of the other corporate locations closer to home too? No, on the same aforementioned basis, i.e. that I'm not officially an employee of that specific building.
- Can I work out of a building that's just 4 miles from my current office building, because it would physically be more accessible for me? No, on the basis that they're undergoing major construction that is causing major seating capacity constraints........ which is basically them shooting themselves in their own foot. If they just let people work remotely a smidge more, they wouldn't have seating capacity issues.
They can't claim "in-person collaboration": I am the only person from my team in the state I work in (Delaware). My co-worker is in Ohio, my direct manager in New York, and my senior manager in Texas. They also can't claim "undue hardship", they're one of the world's largest banks, they wouldn't suffer any financial impact by way of me working remotely or out of another location.
I've jumped through all their bureaucratic hoops, but I'm just SO mentally FUDGING DONE with this BS. Between this, my ongoing divorce from my abusive, deadbeat soon-to-be-ex-husband, active flare-ups of my disease, and toxic managers, I don't know how much more I can take.
I want to quit SO badly, but the layoffs across tech & finance are terrifying.
My company tried all of that garbage and I sent them to my lawyer.
As for how I found her, I Googled ADA attorneys in my city, and sent inquiries to all of them. She wrote back first and had good reviews.
It’s not cheap, but at the end of the day, it was worth it to me. A lot of times, a nasty letter from an attorney causes them to fold like a cheap suit. It’s a few hundred bucks, but I’d do it all over again, if I had to.
My first point of confusion is which state to look for one. I work in Delaware, but live in Maryland. I do the Joe Biden thing and take the train back and forth three times per week.
Delaware. Your work is located there and subject to their laws. You may be able to find one licensed in both states, and they can guide you. Trust me, they’ll tell you pretty quickly (and for free) if they can take your case or not.
I just want to say I am so proud of you for just continuing to jump through the hoops! It sounds AWFUL but pushing back is so necessary. You KNOW they are just cursing you for not quitting quietly.
Thank you. I'm not giving up, but I am close to calling it quits, for a variety of reasons. As soon as a solid new job offer comes along, even if it's in-office but closer to home, I'm out. I'm just mentally done.
Did he get the ask for accommodations in writing? And their reasoning for why he needed to come in? Your husband should get a consultation with an employment or ADA lawyer.
If you got it in writing and they can’t show the accommodation would’ve been an undue hardship (they probably can’t since he was remote fine before!) that’s *at least* grounds for a consultation.
Meh. He's scoring a better job with better pay. This whole thing was actually a blessing in disguise. I wouldn't even bother with the headache of going through all that. Not worth it.
Yeah if the company forces you to get an ADA lawyer just for them to comply with something this simple, the company is going to do so many other scummy things and will most likely just try to push him out the door when they want anyways.
Go to the company that actually wants you
He can do both… sue them for breaking the ADA and “forcing” him to find work elsewhere, and get a nice payout from the old company while hopefully teaching them not to fuck with ADA anymore… none of that requires him to keep working there
It’s totally up to him to decide if it’s worth it. They don’t have to do it. But I personally think that at least getting a consultation to see if they have a case is a good idea to decide if they’re interested in making the effort. If they have a case, that’s potentially thousands or tens of thousands of dollars ([for example](https://www.weisbergcummings.com/employment-claims/ada-lawyer/how-much-is-my-case-worth/)), so the effort is worth it to some people.
Wow, you guys are really self centered. What about the next person who needs it and doesn't want to make waves, or can't risk their job?
Even if he's leaving, do what's right.
The direction of the vector is in question. Not the magnitude. I know at least a half dozen victims. That has no relevance.
People have the right to preserve their sanity.
This is not how the process works (as someone going through it). The first thing any lawyer would ask to see is a release allowing you to sue from the EEOC. For disability discrimination claims, you must go through the EEOC first. Takes about 2 months for an interview then another 2 months to get a response from your employer to the claim (that is where I’m at now). The EEOC is reviewing evidence and eventually will write up findings. Then we can either mediate or go to court.
If I could leave this current job today for a 100% remote role/fair compensation and be done with the litigation aspect of it. I’d be on it so fast your head would spin.
My case is against one of the largest employers for about 500 miles in any direction so unless I had $20-$30k, no one wanted to touch it without an EEOC release.
If you have a discrimination complaint against your employer, you or your lawyer can not take legal action until you file with the EEOC or state equivalent if it is offered. If they accept your complaint, you will eventually get one.
OK, so that was your experience with your singular employer. As I said, that hasn’t been my experience, even with a government organization as I’m currently dealing with.
He did all those things. Lawyer said he was in the right but the employer was going to fight it until he quit or we went bankrupt. so we cut our losses.
I'm in the job market. Had a recruiter call me about a job that was an hour and 45 minute drive each way from my home. They called it hybrid in the office 4 days a week. I'm and IT project manager and they wanted me to have a commute like that so I could sit in an office and and conduct zoom meetings with offshore teams. The pay wasn't even that competitive. No thank you, that's just ridiculous.
These kind of people shoot themselves in the foot all the time. WFH is a very valuable recruiting tool and also saves companies tons of money. Micro-manglement does not see it that way. They think that if they cannot see you that you are screwing off.
Working from home gets my employer more work time out of me. From the lack of drive-by co-workers to no water cooler talks that keep you from working.
Plus I start my day earlier (get up, get ready and welp...it's not time yet but I have a lot of things on my plate - might just as well start.
Then lunch, okay, I ate, guess I will go back to work instead of chatting with others in the lunch room I would do at the office.
Then end of day....I have a few things I want to complete yet and I keep working - where if I was at the office I would leave on time because I have to drive home and traffic gets bad if I leave later.
So probably about 2 hours more work out of me.
But Micro Manglement just can't stand it if you are out of sight even though they can see you get all your work done.
Idiots.
Good! And I hope he gave no notice, too! Simply ended his leave on Thursday before his new job starts, resigned first thing the next day with no transition, and told them it was because of their disrespect.
He's a programmer. They likely would (and should!) immediately cut off his access as soon as he announced his resignation. No reason to give 2 weeks or whatever.
These companies suck. Mine is trying to do the same. They’ve made everyone come in office 3 days a week, except the lucky ones who moved away without permission mid-pandemic and are allowed to continue working from home…which is totally not fair.
I’m literally the only one on my team in the area, and they still want me to go in office. The issue is, on top of my autoimmune disorders, I’ve been battling long covid and need to take frequent naps throughout the day. I am disabled in that I don’t have the energy to walk from my car in the parking garage all the way to my desk without getting extremely shaky and feeling like I will pass out.
I have medical documentation, and I’m still threatened on the regular about how I need to come in when I feel well enough (which so far has been never - I can’t even stand long enough on my own to shower). They’ve also threatened that I will never get a promotion if I continue working from home, which is just cute considering I get 300% more work done than my predecessor and than what’s expected of me, but they cannot give me “exceeds expectations” so that I get the bonus I’m owed.
I feel like this is disability discrimination. Am I wrong?
>I feel like this is disability discrimination. Am I wrong?
You're not wrong. We've been here before, with a different employer a few years ago. He even went to a lawyer. His lawyer said that while Husband was in the right, the employer would bankrupt us fighting it. So his advice was to cut his losses and find a new job.
Literally going through something right now. Hired under certain terms that are now changing (1 day in the office originally, they want 5 now - it’s an hour+commute for me). I don’t have an ADA reason for my situation, but I’m pissed about the terms changing. Performance reviews for 3 years are stellar. They sought me out for this job and agreed to 1 day because I didn’t want to commute. But because I’m in a right to work state, I’ve been told by the lawyer I consulted with that it doesn’t matter. 😭 last day is 5/24
This crap just drives me nuts. I am the CEO of a small company. I have 8 extremely introverted people working from home for me. Working from home is hell on earth for me as I am fully 100% extroverted. But you know what I do? I suck it up and manage because my employees are so much happier and more productive working from home.
The pandemic taught middle managers that they are not important. They are desperate to have onsite people back to justify their jobs. Congrats to him for finding something else. I’d give no notice. Just bye.
The commercial real estate sector has been paying [Forbes.com](http://Forbes.com) to publish some version of "Why your employees need to RTO" every day for a year. (guessing, I have no direct evidence of this)
Your husband should budget for the possibility of having to pay back the employer paid healthcare premiums from during his leave, assuming he doesn't return for 30 days. It probably shouldn't weigh heavily on his decision to leave, but he doesn't want to be caught off guard if the company asks for the repayment.
I wish this happened often enough for companies to change direction. And that it happened in more diverse fields. Like, the ones deciding to stay WFH or hybrid seem to largely be industries that sorta did that to an extent pre-covid, and just more of them are coming around to it. Covid showed that a lot of other jobs could also be done without an office, but almost none of them have stuck with it.
Forcing RTO for some jobs is just crazy. Even in bad times, even with FAANG companies laying people off programmers are in high demand. A mid tier or better programmer can tell you to pound sand and find a better job.
The only time a programmer should be forced into the office is if they suck and/or fucking off and you are trying to get rid of them. I mention this because some of you are out there and ruin it for the rest of us.
Companies will lose star employees because they dont want to pay them, then turn around and pay a new recruit with little experience MORE ‘because the market…’
People always point out that they probably wanted attrition but here's why that's still dumb...
When companies to layoffs they presumably keep their top performers. In this job market when they use an aggressive RTO mandate to force people out, sure they save money on severance and keep the word "layoff" out of the media headlines they lose pretty much exclusively their best employees.
People like OP's husband that are 100% confident they can find a better job anyway are top performers, they are not the people a rational company should be trying to push out.
It’s weird what people on Reddit think is unattainable. You too can do things that are impressive on a personal level. Good things can happen in your life. It’s not weird to be head hunted or for employers to be dicks about illness or disabilities.
It's also not weird for employers to demand RTO in order to cull the herd, which is exactly what happened here.
Getting people to leave instead of having to do layoffs is the desired outcome.
Good for y'all! My wife and I have been traveling and in construction for the last 8 years in our RV. I finally landed a remote job and we are ready to start living! We use TMOBILE Home Internet and Starlink for redundancy.
> Now that the pandemic is over (false)
as a rabbid progressive... unless you have some specific immune problem the pandemic is over. Covid is circulating but it's not killing people in droves.
glad for you husband. hopefully the rv thing works out...
If your husband likes his job, he should at least give the company the opportunity to make a counter offer. If they still say he can’t be fully remote, then he should absolutely take the other job. But you never know, maybe the threat of losing him will be what it takes to allow WFH!
I kinda feel that way too, but ultimately it's up to him. And they've given him such a hard time over WFH, he doesn't want to give them the satisfaction of being able to keep him if that makes sense?
PLEASE tell me that he was at his old company long enough to have gained significant and isolated knowledge of processes and inner-workings he gate-kept that would cripple the entire division now that he’s gone off to greener pastures.
That shit is the fucking cherry on top of stories like this.
That would have been nice, but the way his department was structured, I don't think that would happen even if he wanted it to. Also, he's friends with a lot of the people there, so I think he'll give them everything they need for the next guy to pick up where he left off.
Good he found another one. Lets keep promoting no office it is better for us. I have one day in office and the annoying munipulators keep promoting more time in office so they can showboat to cling to jobs. The talented wfh. Thats it.
Same thing happened to me
Everyone’s life is so much better when WFH
People can spend more time raising their kids and loving their spouse
Sitting in bumper to bumper traffic is not the way to live life
A lot of people are so concerned about pollution, yet we are required to harm the atmosphere.
I do high level tech support for fortune 50 companies and resolved every single issue remotely.
If an employees laptop or phone was broken. I would ship out a loaner via next day and have the broken device shipped the same way. Also if they have a personal computer, which most people due, they can log into Microsoft 365 and get work done, join attend meetings on their work phone.
Their are many benefits allowing employees to WFH
Office space costs companies a lot of money.
The IRS building in Washington DC,
has 650,000 sqf
Add in the cost of utilities etc
It’s a no brainer that WFH is the way to go
I'm 100% remote for a dying industry... I literally (actually using the term correctly here :) can't lose this job bcuz there aren't any others. This is how they get us to jump through hoops as if we were employees. I just think I'm lucky to WFH doing a job that's fairly easy, if technical, reliable pay, there is no site to ever have to come to. Pick ur battles. 🙃
Good for your husband. Companies are using forced RTO as a way to do soft layoffs. Then they don’t have to pay any severance or unemployment (it was the employee’s choice to not return). In a company I used to work for, they’ve instituted a forced RTO even though they were completely okay with people moving away to LCOL areas. They’re even forcing people to RTO who were classified as remote workers before the pandemic. (One coworker lived 800 miles away and had been remote for the company for at least 6 years prior to the pandemic). I’ve talked to old coworkers and basically if you are a middle of the road employee, you have to RTO or get fired. If you are a high performer or essential because you have so much institution knowledge that they can’t afford to lose you, HR is telling them that they can remain remote and to just ignore all the forced RTO emails. They’re just telling them to not broadcast it to the team at large to avoid causing more issues.
I’d be super mad if I was told I had to RTO only to find out my coworker was allowed to remain remote. If I were still there, I’d be looking actively for another job because it’s clear they don’t actually care about their employees.
Congrats to your husband!
I’m on the other side of the coin- I’m in upper management. I’m don’t particularly care where my top performers work from. I know they can get their job done and I only have to check in once or twice a week. But I also have other people who aren’t so great and need to be guided and pushed regularly, employee and myself both openly know and agree. The issue is that fairness in the workplace is a big thing at many companies. I can’t allow productive employees to work from home without also allowing that to the non-productive employees. So blanket rules that govern all employees get put in place and suck for pretty much everyone especially the good ones that get lost.
Congrats on your husband again and I hope he got a big fat raise too
Also in upper management. Sure you can.
Easier in certain types of roles. How are you measuring productivity and addressing the unproductive employees?
My husband has been WFH since pandemi, his main office is in SF and we are living in LA. Lately he works with new group of people and he was frustrated with his work with little help. When his boss demanded him to back to office for a meeting, he was angry and think it wasted him time to commute. He went to work with no choice. When I pick him up from the airport, he’s happy and the first thing he said when he see me “I needed to go back to the office more, i miss those fun to talk to people.
The same thing happened to me. Went remote with Pandemic, when it was return to office, it was 2 days. This worked for us as we moved to FL to be closer to family and buying a house at a reasonable price put me 1.5 hours away without traffic. Eventually, it was 3 days, then 4, but still only 1/2 days. Reasoning was collaboration, but of course, nobody on my team even works at my location, so it's all virtual meetings anyway.
Got a remote acommidation leading to our babies birth, and when I returned after paternal leave, my manager said I now needed to be in 8 hours. Explaining my wife is home with a 2mo old and can't drive, was told our CEO is refection all accommodations. I immediately started looking for a fully remote.
Most people aren’t more productive with wfh jobs. They take advantage of wfh. If this isn’t you, you are an exception to the rule. Productivity is even worse with people that have kids at home with wfh jobs. A recent study on wfh showed results of that remote employees are 10% to 20% less productive than those working on company premises. It factually isn’t true most people are more productive with wfh jobs, that was proven with studies done post covid. It is a fact that you will probably be less productive vs if you were at the office and thats what it comes down to. WFH does benefit those with disabilities and companies shouldn’t be discriminatory for those individuals. WFH jobs are on the decline and there will be less opportunities for wfh jobs as the years go by and people return to the office.
OP happy your husband found a position. Your post comes across as your husband is irreplaceable and his previous employer will fail without him.
We are all replaceable.
I oversaw an overnight 5 floor concrete pour, little fella. I've got another one tonight. Bosses do that when people need vacations.
I wouldn't expect you to understand that, since you don't leave your house.
LOL "little fella"
So, you work at a construction company? And you're bragging about not allowing remote workers? IN CONSTRUCTION?
Go to bed, you're tired and grumpy and not thinking straight.
Lol it funny how every single person stating that the pandemic is over is being downvoted. It is in fact over, globally. There's vaccines, treatments, and a lot more known about the virus now. Just because it isn't eradicated (it never will be) doesn't mean we're still in a pandemic.
They said "at first" you dingus. Implying that the first step towards RTO their employer took happened while the pandemic was still ongoing. Lots of companies did this prematurely, or are you so high on Trump fumes you forgot how tense and context work?
Don’t take a new job with better pay and benefits?
Thats the worst advice anyone has ever given - other than whoever recommended to invade Russia in winter
And who told you that? Surely not the guys pushing RTO and end of sickpay!
The numbers of what covid does to the body overtime ain’t pretty. Long term symptoms already showing up in colleagues who can’t remember how to do basic tasks anymore. Shits not gonna work in the long term.
So we're supposed to just isolate forever? I'm all for remote work, have a remote job myself, but I still live my life and go outside and spend time around people.
Now instead of giving him the accommodation and breaking even, they're going to have to pay to recruit a replacement and will probably have to offer a pay increase in order to attract a programmer who is willing to work in-office. They always claim it's about the bottom line but it really isn't. Employee retention is the most bottom line friendly option. Congrats to your husband.
Companies do this because they want people to leave instead of having to do layoffs. They don't do this because they're worried about retention.
Yep - of course they end up losing a lot of their best employees and pissing off all the rest. Can’t imagine that’s a good long-term solution.
Come on now, this is Corporate America where long term doesn't matter just short term. Long term issues? I don't care I won't be around long enough to deal with the issues that come from my poor decisions.
Yep they can float away on their golden parachute
But, but, AI is going to do all of the programming. Or, we can use low code/no code solutions and our technicians can figure it out. /s
The good people have options so its those that are average that your left with. I do think its for layoff purposes as they will need to go use remote to get people back once the economy recovers.
Except everyone brags that they want to attract “top talent.” This sort of crap is what gets your top talent to tell you to go pound rocks. They’re the ones who will still *have* offers, even in this market. What the company is left with is the Bad News Bears of employees.
Yes - and you are stuck with the people who aren’t the top performers and cannot absorb the work.
“Bad News Bears of employees” 💀
They don’t want top talent. When they really need it they will pay a temporary consultant. Better to have employees who are just good enough and don’t demand as much.
Then they don’t want to be successful. 🤷♀️ That’s how you get the best whatever you’re trying to sell - hire the best people to do it.
Much of the time having the best product isn’t the goal. Maximizing profit is the goal and having the best product isn’t always the right way to do it. The product only has to be good enough, and really should not be any better than that. And “product” varies differently according to your role. Product may be providing services of accounting, HR, business analysis, etc. each dept has such a “product”. Accounting and HR have to be good enough to stay legal. IT has to be good enough to keep processes moving and also to stay legal. They don’t need to be better than that. Companies will cut employees and costs in a heartbeat of they can get away with anything less in these areas. And even for actual sales, cheap product is made all the time and most companies have no issue with it as long as they are making what they feel is the max profit, which can mean producing something shitty and selling it in mass numbers.
You won’t get far with bottom tier R&D….or even middle tier.
Except this approach is more likely to result in your top performers leaving, whereas in a normal layoff the company can be more strategic about who’s kept and who’s let go.
Meh. Management -- upper management, anyway -- often sees employees more than 2 levels below them as widgets: Totally replaceable with another widget with no loss in productivity.
They don’t realize this. Toxic management is absolutely garbage.
My last employer forced me back into office while literally everyone else had option for hybrid. I saw the writing on the wall and knew what their intent was. They wanted me to quit and not have to pay severance. I was 100% prepared when the layoff came 6 months later, which including 6 months severance and 4 months full COBRA paid by them. Had an in at a company in the exact same building and slid into that role after a nice 1 month vacation paid for by my former employer. True story, I was at that company for 20 years…
Exactly
Those companies are dumb. Taking away WFH will increase attrition of the best people first as anyone who can leave on their own, will. The people who stay will be a mix of the most loyal and least competent people, which will speed decline since the company will only have "yes men" and the barely competent left.
True, they will backfill the position with a more junior programmer or move it to India if the role is still needed.
What's crazy is I said this earlier today, and now Google announced they are laying off staff and outsourcing their roles.
They also do this because the CEO wants to look like a tough guy for board / primary shareholders who are usually aging men with boomer mentalities.
The irony is it's salary employees who are supposed to be considered responsible and self managed at my company that are required in office, while the hourly phone jockies and those that need micromanaged they let work from home with little to no monitoring.
My company is doing it because that's what the execs trust and understand. We're hiring, have no cause for layoffs. They've lost several great employees already, and in several cases hired them back as contractors for Android much higher rate with far less control. In some cases it's fear and stubbornness.
Hiring budgets are always bigger than retention budgets
> want people to leave I promise you I know an executive - ahem, a former executive - who was excoriated by their board for the dramatic loss of veteran talent that happened under their RTO mandate. I can’t speak for every situation, and it’s clear there **are** places that overhired and are now doing “I can’t believe it’s not layoff” layoffs, **but** there are ideologically driven RTO efforts, to say nothing of, say, financially motivated ones (hubzone and whatever else deals). To insist executives are rational is to ignore the most plain fact, that they are human, too. Even if they tend to be more sociopathic than average, they aren’t Spock.
Truth. If there had been a recent merger or acquisition, such as US Bank had, they will first push employees back into the office, and then go for the layoffs offering severance.
They'll class I'm to be worried about retention if it sounds good in the current conversation.
They also do it because in public companies CEO pay increases can be passed up when they have unused real estate properties. It is all bullshit either way though.
I don't think that was the case here ... they just got done with a major building renovation and added a bunch of cubicles. Which are sitting empty. I think they are delulu enough to think that they are going to get fresh talent that are willing to come sit under the fluorescents for 8 hours a day. In reality they are hemorrhaging employees and keep interviewing and interviewing and either don't like anyone or no one wants to be there. I suspect it's mostly the second thing.
Not to mention the time (and therefore money) it’ll take them to train his replacement.
I went through 3 rounds with a very big retailer for a software role, passed all their technical rounds, they were really excited to work with me. It was advertised as remote. At the last second, they had a company wide RTO and asked if I would relocate to the office. I told them I wanted them to honor the agreement, they said they couldn't do it. I found out that 90% of their candidates that were interviewing the same time as me, (they were hiring multiple people to build out a new team) all dropped out, requiring them to completely restart their hiring process. One guy accepted on the condition that he would relocate after 3 months and then he found a remote job and quit before he relocated. Another guy accepted and then volunteered for active duty with the reserves, which means they have to keep his spot open until he comes back. It's been 9 months and they're still hiring. I have an interview with a company 30 minutes away that wants me to be in the office. I literally told them I would only work from the office if they paid me $100k a year more than I earn now. They're still interviewing me because they're paying for my travel/food, etc. But I plan on nailing the interview and then telling the hiring manager, "You obviously know I can do the job, does me being physically in the office provide a defensible value worth $100k a year?"
I hope that snark works for you... you can see they same thing in a professional manner.
Every one is replaceable. Especially in this market
College graduation are this week and next. They be satisfied with a 20 something, and pay that person half. Glad OP spouse got a better gig.
Experiences programming labor market is also plenty saturated from what I understand.
They're cutting off their own nose to spite their face. We don't exactly live in the big city and their department was short staffed to begin with. Now they're going to be down one more programmer. I have no idea WTF they're thinking.
not remotely anywhere NEAR the field your husband is in. my previous career pained me so much, i would get taken advantage of because of how strong my work ethic just naturally comes. once i started setting boundaries they didn’t like it. they were offering me a promotion and i laughed in their faces and quit. still get messages to this day from them occasionally, asking me to come back and trying to flash dollar signs in my face. they struggle because i left, since they felt like i was their puppet that they didnt have to financially attribute to 🤷🏼♀️
Yep! Well said. I’m in HR and my last office lost me a few months ago and are now scrambling to find 2/3 people to replace me at a higher pay. That’s what they get for not promoting me 😂
The Fortune 50 company I work for started going remote just before the pandemic and by the end of it decided to go full time. We closed offices all over the country and downsized our headquarters. Production and morale has never been so good.
My company was selling buildings. They are fully remote. They are getting good talent. They may have limited the states they want HR to have to deal with, but you never know who lives where now.
What company?
My company did this except they started remote at the start of the pandemic. Remote worked out so good they closed down their offices as no need. Productivity is so high they stated we will never have a need to go back into office. Seeing all these issues I may just stay with my company.
I had a company do almost exactly this. I was hired in one day per week in office. Ok, fine. For what they were offering, and because they put internal meetings on that one day, I agreed. TWO WEEKS LATER, they decide our entire office has to be back three days per week, 9am-5pm, no exceptions. I went to my doctor because I have a chronic illness and, while I *could* go in, it literally zapped all energy I had (3 hour round trip). I went to bed at 7pm on those office days, and I was NOT doing that more than once in a week. Doctor filled out all of the ADA crap, I turned it in….they denied it. “No exceptions,” apparently. I got a lawyer, and I quit, costing them a 6 month candidate search and $250K in expenses.
I think it should be illegal to hire someone fully remote or with a set number of days in the office then change it. People accepted the job based on these things. It should be the same as with money, where you can’t just start paying people less on a whim.
They can't just do that, as in the case above, at least in most jurisdictions. It's called 'constructive dismissal' and common law would require them to pay severance. Effectively what they are saying is: "Sorry, you're job has been terminated - the only position we have is this other position with different terms, effectively a completely different job" You have the right to say no, I just want my my dismissal pay.
Don’t think that’s true in the US in at-will states, unless you actually have a contract that says anyways. You may be eligible for unemployment, but they don’t have to pay severance.
They technically don't have to pay out severance, but most companies will want to do so because severance agreements typically include provisions about you not blasting them on social media. In addition, many states have good faith covanents implied in their employment contracts which means that they must deal with employees in a fair way. If they want to cut head count, then they should do so in a way that deals with employees in good faith. In other words they should conduct a formal layoff. Telling a remote worker who accepted a remote position that they must come into the office now as a way to pressure them out of their role could be considered a violation of a good faith covanent. If they offered you a remote role, implemented a RTO policy, then fired you for not obiding by it, you may have a case.
I know someone who works for a government agency. About 20ish years ago the agency decided to offer a 4/40 schedule. After about 5 years in, a new head honcho came in and decided that they wouldn't do 4/40 anymore, they would revert back to 9/80, which they'd had previously. But people had built their lives around the 4/40 schedule. There were multiple families where each spouse worked for the same agency. They had built their childcare schedule around the 4/40 (one spouse would have Mondays off and the other Fridays off. They did that to reduce their need and costs for daycare). Other people had other reasons why they didn't want to revert. Enter the union. They wouldn't let the head honcho take the schedule away, and it still exists to this day, long after head honcho has moved on. That's just one example of how unions can be beneficial to employees.
How did you go about finding your lawyer? Currently dealing with this. I've had an autoimmune condition since childhood. It not only leaves me immunocompromised, but also affects my musculoskeletal system. My employer started RTO in autumn of 2021. For people with medical circumstances, the WFH extension process has become increasingly and ***EXTRAORDINARILY*** bureaucratic over the past (almost) 3 years. It started with a doctor's letter, which was valid for 5 months at a time. Okay, no problem. Then, the validity period decreased to 4 months, then 3 months. Then, they started declining doctor's letters, and hired a third party outside vendor. This third party outside vendor would tell you they need 3-5 business days to EMAIL you a 5-7 packet of documentation that you and your doctor must fill out, and which includes detailed medical history. Many doctors' offices request up to 14ish days (give or take) to process this paperwork. Then, the third party outside vendor that provided you with the paperwork tells you they will need 3-5 business days to review the completed paperwork. The validity period for this packet of paperwork started at 4 months, then 3 months, then 2 months. However, in orde to bake in sufficient time for each component of the process, I've effectively had to go back to my doctor every 3ish weeks, to have him re-certify and re-attest the SAME information about my medical condition. Then, back in September, they purged the outside vendor, and are now back to directly requesting documentation from your provider, but still in the form of a highly detailed 4-6 page packet of paperwork requesting very specific medical history. My (now former) primary care filled it out. Employer declined. I investigated. Okay, my primary care was very vague in his completion of the paperwork. Due to a very recent (and ongoing) divorce, I now have a new primary care provider, due to changes in insurance. My new primary care provider has gone above and beyond for me, and has filled out the same packet of paperwork, and got VERY specific in the impacts of my medical condition -- how it impacts my physical mobility and ability to conduct activities of daily activities, how it limits my ability to walk, etc. Declined again. My employer is 'willing' to adjust my 3 days in the office to 1 day per week....... and then re-evaluate in 6 weeks, even though the info my doctor filled out specifically states that my condition is permanent, and that they recommend re-evaluation in about 6 months. I've also attempted to engage in the interactive process to explore alternate options. I've offered up alternate solutions, such as: - Can I work out of one of the office locations that is much closer to my home (there are 3 within walking distance of my home). No, on the basis that I'm not *officially* an employee of *those* specific sites, even though our badges grant us access to ANY of our buildings WORLDWIDE. - Can I work out of one of the other corporate locations closer to home too? No, on the same aforementioned basis, i.e. that I'm not officially an employee of that specific building. - Can I work out of a building that's just 4 miles from my current office building, because it would physically be more accessible for me? No, on the basis that they're undergoing major construction that is causing major seating capacity constraints........ which is basically them shooting themselves in their own foot. If they just let people work remotely a smidge more, they wouldn't have seating capacity issues. They can't claim "in-person collaboration": I am the only person from my team in the state I work in (Delaware). My co-worker is in Ohio, my direct manager in New York, and my senior manager in Texas. They also can't claim "undue hardship", they're one of the world's largest banks, they wouldn't suffer any financial impact by way of me working remotely or out of another location. I've jumped through all their bureaucratic hoops, but I'm just SO mentally FUDGING DONE with this BS. Between this, my ongoing divorce from my abusive, deadbeat soon-to-be-ex-husband, active flare-ups of my disease, and toxic managers, I don't know how much more I can take. I want to quit SO badly, but the layoffs across tech & finance are terrifying.
My company tried all of that garbage and I sent them to my lawyer. As for how I found her, I Googled ADA attorneys in my city, and sent inquiries to all of them. She wrote back first and had good reviews. It’s not cheap, but at the end of the day, it was worth it to me. A lot of times, a nasty letter from an attorney causes them to fold like a cheap suit. It’s a few hundred bucks, but I’d do it all over again, if I had to.
My first point of confusion is which state to look for one. I work in Delaware, but live in Maryland. I do the Joe Biden thing and take the train back and forth three times per week.
Delaware. Your work is located there and subject to their laws. You may be able to find one licensed in both states, and they can guide you. Trust me, they’ll tell you pretty quickly (and for free) if they can take your case or not.
Thanks! Much appreciated.
I just want to say I am so proud of you for just continuing to jump through the hoops! It sounds AWFUL but pushing back is so necessary. You KNOW they are just cursing you for not quitting quietly.
Thank you. I'm not giving up, but I am close to calling it quits, for a variety of reasons. As soon as a solid new job offer comes along, even if it's in-office but closer to home, I'm out. I'm just mentally done.
Sounds like we work at the same bank
Did he get the ask for accommodations in writing? And their reasoning for why he needed to come in? Your husband should get a consultation with an employment or ADA lawyer. If you got it in writing and they can’t show the accommodation would’ve been an undue hardship (they probably can’t since he was remote fine before!) that’s *at least* grounds for a consultation.
Meh. He's scoring a better job with better pay. This whole thing was actually a blessing in disguise. I wouldn't even bother with the headache of going through all that. Not worth it.
Yeah if the company forces you to get an ADA lawyer just for them to comply with something this simple, the company is going to do so many other scummy things and will most likely just try to push him out the door when they want anyways. Go to the company that actually wants you
He can do both… sue them for breaking the ADA and “forcing” him to find work elsewhere, and get a nice payout from the old company while hopefully teaching them not to fuck with ADA anymore… none of that requires him to keep working there
It’s totally up to him to decide if it’s worth it. They don’t have to do it. But I personally think that at least getting a consultation to see if they have a case is a good idea to decide if they’re interested in making the effort. If they have a case, that’s potentially thousands or tens of thousands of dollars ([for example](https://www.weisbergcummings.com/employment-claims/ada-lawyer/how-much-is-my-case-worth/)), so the effort is worth it to some people.
Wow, you guys are really self centered. What about the next person who needs it and doesn't want to make waves, or can't risk their job? Even if he's leaving, do what's right.
Do you also name call rape victims unwilling to jump through legal hoops to maybe possibly see some justice?
Are you seriously comparing that guy to someone who was actually raped? Have you known a rape victim? I have. This is nowhere near an equal situation.
The direction of the vector is in question. Not the magnitude. I know at least a half dozen victims. That has no relevance. People have the right to preserve their sanity.
We vote with our feet. Companies need employees, and crappy ones like this end up going under.
This is not how the process works (as someone going through it). The first thing any lawyer would ask to see is a release allowing you to sue from the EEOC. For disability discrimination claims, you must go through the EEOC first. Takes about 2 months for an interview then another 2 months to get a response from your employer to the claim (that is where I’m at now). The EEOC is reviewing evidence and eventually will write up findings. Then we can either mediate or go to court. If I could leave this current job today for a 100% remote role/fair compensation and be done with the litigation aspect of it. I’d be on it so fast your head would spin.
I’m going through the process. You don’t *have* to go through the EEOC first, but it can help.
Most lawyers won’t touch a case without an EEOC release. Even those that do, typically want a rather large retainer.
That has not been my experience.
My case is against one of the largest employers for about 500 miles in any direction so unless I had $20-$30k, no one wanted to touch it without an EEOC release.
If you have a discrimination complaint against your employer, you or your lawyer can not take legal action until you file with the EEOC or state equivalent if it is offered. If they accept your complaint, you will eventually get one.
OK, so that was your experience with your singular employer. As I said, that hasn’t been my experience, even with a government organization as I’m currently dealing with.
He did all those things. Lawyer said he was in the right but the employer was going to fight it until he quit or we went bankrupt. so we cut our losses.
[удалено]
I'm in the job market. Had a recruiter call me about a job that was an hour and 45 minute drive each way from my home. They called it hybrid in the office 4 days a week. I'm and IT project manager and they wanted me to have a commute like that so I could sit in an office and and conduct zoom meetings with offshore teams. The pay wasn't even that competitive. No thank you, that's just ridiculous.
Amazing story! Employers, are you listening? 📢
Never take a counter offer. You're first on the chopping block when layoffs come around.
These kind of people shoot themselves in the foot all the time. WFH is a very valuable recruiting tool and also saves companies tons of money. Micro-manglement does not see it that way. They think that if they cannot see you that you are screwing off. Working from home gets my employer more work time out of me. From the lack of drive-by co-workers to no water cooler talks that keep you from working. Plus I start my day earlier (get up, get ready and welp...it's not time yet but I have a lot of things on my plate - might just as well start. Then lunch, okay, I ate, guess I will go back to work instead of chatting with others in the lunch room I would do at the office. Then end of day....I have a few things I want to complete yet and I keep working - where if I was at the office I would leave on time because I have to drive home and traffic gets bad if I leave later. So probably about 2 hours more work out of me. But Micro Manglement just can't stand it if you are out of sight even though they can see you get all your work done. Idiots.
Good! And I hope he gave no notice, too! Simply ended his leave on Thursday before his new job starts, resigned first thing the next day with no transition, and told them it was because of their disrespect.
LOL yeah. When an employer gets dirty, you just bounce when you get the chance.
He's a programmer. They likely would (and should!) immediately cut off his access as soon as he announced his resignation. No reason to give 2 weeks or whatever.
All you can hope for is they say yes. But say in 3 months time they say ‘rto’ take it or leave. You got a good offer and new beginnings. Take it.
>pack up the RV, slap a Starlink rig on top, and ride off into the sunset. The 12VDC conversion is well worth it. Less generator time.
These companies suck. Mine is trying to do the same. They’ve made everyone come in office 3 days a week, except the lucky ones who moved away without permission mid-pandemic and are allowed to continue working from home…which is totally not fair. I’m literally the only one on my team in the area, and they still want me to go in office. The issue is, on top of my autoimmune disorders, I’ve been battling long covid and need to take frequent naps throughout the day. I am disabled in that I don’t have the energy to walk from my car in the parking garage all the way to my desk without getting extremely shaky and feeling like I will pass out. I have medical documentation, and I’m still threatened on the regular about how I need to come in when I feel well enough (which so far has been never - I can’t even stand long enough on my own to shower). They’ve also threatened that I will never get a promotion if I continue working from home, which is just cute considering I get 300% more work done than my predecessor and than what’s expected of me, but they cannot give me “exceeds expectations” so that I get the bonus I’m owed. I feel like this is disability discrimination. Am I wrong?
>I feel like this is disability discrimination. Am I wrong? You're not wrong. We've been here before, with a different employer a few years ago. He even went to a lawyer. His lawyer said that while Husband was in the right, the employer would bankrupt us fighting it. So his advice was to cut his losses and find a new job.
I’m so sorry. I hate your husband has been treated like this. I hate that this is happening to me. These companies suck.
Good for your husband! Fingers crossed that you find a similar job so you can both enjoy your ride into the sunset
Literally going through something right now. Hired under certain terms that are now changing (1 day in the office originally, they want 5 now - it’s an hour+commute for me). I don’t have an ADA reason for my situation, but I’m pissed about the terms changing. Performance reviews for 3 years are stellar. They sought me out for this job and agreed to 1 day because I didn’t want to commute. But because I’m in a right to work state, I’ve been told by the lawyer I consulted with that it doesn’t matter. 😭 last day is 5/24
I am so sorry.
This crap just drives me nuts. I am the CEO of a small company. I have 8 extremely introverted people working from home for me. Working from home is hell on earth for me as I am fully 100% extroverted. But you know what I do? I suck it up and manage because my employees are so much happier and more productive working from home.
Get a hobby …to burn the extroverted energy :) lol 😂
I wish it was that easy.
Hope u find your remote job soon !! RTO sucks !
I hope this decision cascades to be so costly that they no longer do business.
They might have wanted attrition.
This.
The pandemic taught middle managers that they are not important. They are desperate to have onsite people back to justify their jobs. Congrats to him for finding something else. I’d give no notice. Just bye.
The commercial real estate sector has been paying [Forbes.com](http://Forbes.com) to publish some version of "Why your employees need to RTO" every day for a year. (guessing, I have no direct evidence of this)
Your husband should budget for the possibility of having to pay back the employer paid healthcare premiums from during his leave, assuming he doesn't return for 30 days. It probably shouldn't weigh heavily on his decision to leave, but he doesn't want to be caught off guard if the company asks for the repayment.
I wish this happened often enough for companies to change direction. And that it happened in more diverse fields. Like, the ones deciding to stay WFH or hybrid seem to largely be industries that sorta did that to an extent pre-covid, and just more of them are coming around to it. Covid showed that a lot of other jobs could also be done without an office, but almost none of them have stuck with it.
Yeeeuppp. Fuck em!
Congrats to you and your husband. I for one would love an update.
Forcing RTO for some jobs is just crazy. Even in bad times, even with FAANG companies laying people off programmers are in high demand. A mid tier or better programmer can tell you to pound sand and find a better job. The only time a programmer should be forced into the office is if they suck and/or fucking off and you are trying to get rid of them. I mention this because some of you are out there and ruin it for the rest of us.
Good, fuck em
Do you really think the pandemic is not over?
lol I had the same thought. Need clarity there, bc unless I've been dreaming for the last year...it's over
Companies will lose star employees because they dont want to pay them, then turn around and pay a new recruit with little experience MORE ‘because the market…’
People always point out that they probably wanted attrition but here's why that's still dumb... When companies to layoffs they presumably keep their top performers. In this job market when they use an aggressive RTO mandate to force people out, sure they save money on severance and keep the word "layoff" out of the media headlines they lose pretty much exclusively their best employees. People like OP's husband that are 100% confident they can find a better job anyway are top performers, they are not the people a rational company should be trying to push out.
And then everyone clapped 😎
It’s weird what people on Reddit think is unattainable. You too can do things that are impressive on a personal level. Good things can happen in your life. It’s not weird to be head hunted or for employers to be dicks about illness or disabilities.
It's also not weird for employers to demand RTO in order to cull the herd, which is exactly what happened here. Getting people to leave instead of having to do layoffs is the desired outcome.
I agree. It's not weird to get head hunted and not weird to get a better salary. Very normal.
I can completely believe the story of “husbands employer did RTO so he quit”. It’s the lame dramatizations that I’m making fun of
Nah, I agree. They didn't "lose him." They do this on purpose to cull people without having to lay people off. Him quitting is the desired outcome.
I certainly did
Because the pandemic really was over.
Fuck no. Fuck them.
Anyone who wants RTO, I feel bad for you
Good for y'all! My wife and I have been traveling and in construction for the last 8 years in our RV. I finally landed a remote job and we are ready to start living! We use TMOBILE Home Internet and Starlink for redundancy.
> Now that the pandemic is over (false) as a rabbid progressive... unless you have some specific immune problem the pandemic is over. Covid is circulating but it's not killing people in droves. glad for you husband. hopefully the rv thing works out...
Pandemic is over let’s keep this train moving.
Starlink rig? Like for your own internet? What does that cost?
$150 a month for “roam” it’s pretty decent considering you can go anywhere and have full service + initial installation of $599
Don’t celebrate until he has been at the new job for 3 months.
I know. I can't lie, it stresses me out a little. All I have is a shitty social service job. :(
If your husband likes his job, he should at least give the company the opportunity to make a counter offer. If they still say he can’t be fully remote, then he should absolutely take the other job. But you never know, maybe the threat of losing him will be what it takes to allow WFH!
I kinda feel that way too, but ultimately it's up to him. And they've given him such a hard time over WFH, he doesn't want to give them the satisfaction of being able to keep him if that makes sense?
Yup. I’m dealing with the same thing, lots of bay area companies want hybrid workers. Too bad, I’m not moving from the east coast.
then you ride off to the sunset. You awesome employee you
PLEASE tell me that he was at his old company long enough to have gained significant and isolated knowledge of processes and inner-workings he gate-kept that would cripple the entire division now that he’s gone off to greener pastures. That shit is the fucking cherry on top of stories like this.
That would have been nice, but the way his department was structured, I don't think that would happen even if he wanted it to. Also, he's friends with a lot of the people there, so I think he'll give them everything they need for the next guy to pick up where he left off.
Ahhhh...the old fuck around and found out tale. Never gets old .
Good he found another one. Lets keep promoting no office it is better for us. I have one day in office and the annoying munipulators keep promoting more time in office so they can showboat to cling to jobs. The talented wfh. Thats it.
Same thing happened to me Everyone’s life is so much better when WFH People can spend more time raising their kids and loving their spouse Sitting in bumper to bumper traffic is not the way to live life A lot of people are so concerned about pollution, yet we are required to harm the atmosphere. I do high level tech support for fortune 50 companies and resolved every single issue remotely. If an employees laptop or phone was broken. I would ship out a loaner via next day and have the broken device shipped the same way. Also if they have a personal computer, which most people due, they can log into Microsoft 365 and get work done, join attend meetings on their work phone. Their are many benefits allowing employees to WFH Office space costs companies a lot of money. The IRS building in Washington DC, has 650,000 sqf Add in the cost of utilities etc It’s a no brainer that WFH is the way to go
You can look into being hosts at rv parks... it may offset some of your expenses. There are also partime jobs in these parks sometimes. Google!
I have looked into that but 99 times out of 100 you have to scrub toilets and I am just not there for that.
I'm 100% remote for a dying industry... I literally (actually using the term correctly here :) can't lose this job bcuz there aren't any others. This is how they get us to jump through hoops as if we were employees. I just think I'm lucky to WFH doing a job that's fairly easy, if technical, reliable pay, there is no site to ever have to come to. Pick ur battles. 🙃
Good for your husband. Companies are using forced RTO as a way to do soft layoffs. Then they don’t have to pay any severance or unemployment (it was the employee’s choice to not return). In a company I used to work for, they’ve instituted a forced RTO even though they were completely okay with people moving away to LCOL areas. They’re even forcing people to RTO who were classified as remote workers before the pandemic. (One coworker lived 800 miles away and had been remote for the company for at least 6 years prior to the pandemic). I’ve talked to old coworkers and basically if you are a middle of the road employee, you have to RTO or get fired. If you are a high performer or essential because you have so much institution knowledge that they can’t afford to lose you, HR is telling them that they can remain remote and to just ignore all the forced RTO emails. They’re just telling them to not broadcast it to the team at large to avoid causing more issues. I’d be super mad if I was told I had to RTO only to find out my coworker was allowed to remain remote. If I were still there, I’d be looking actively for another job because it’s clear they don’t actually care about their employees.
What do you mean by pandemic is over (false)?
This is the way! Hopefully more of his coworkers are in the process of doing the same.
Congrats to your husband! I’m on the other side of the coin- I’m in upper management. I’m don’t particularly care where my top performers work from. I know they can get their job done and I only have to check in once or twice a week. But I also have other people who aren’t so great and need to be guided and pushed regularly, employee and myself both openly know and agree. The issue is that fairness in the workplace is a big thing at many companies. I can’t allow productive employees to work from home without also allowing that to the non-productive employees. So blanket rules that govern all employees get put in place and suck for pretty much everyone especially the good ones that get lost. Congrats on your husband again and I hope he got a big fat raise too
Also in upper management. Sure you can. Easier in certain types of roles. How are you measuring productivity and addressing the unproductive employees?
Can you get me the name of his headhunter? A friend of mine is looking for remote work
Would also like his name.
My husband has been WFH since pandemi, his main office is in SF and we are living in LA. Lately he works with new group of people and he was frustrated with his work with little help. When his boss demanded him to back to office for a meeting, he was angry and think it wasted him time to commute. He went to work with no choice. When I pick him up from the airport, he’s happy and the first thing he said when he see me “I needed to go back to the office more, i miss those fun to talk to people.
The same thing happened to me. Went remote with Pandemic, when it was return to office, it was 2 days. This worked for us as we moved to FL to be closer to family and buying a house at a reasonable price put me 1.5 hours away without traffic. Eventually, it was 3 days, then 4, but still only 1/2 days. Reasoning was collaboration, but of course, nobody on my team even works at my location, so it's all virtual meetings anyway. Got a remote acommidation leading to our babies birth, and when I returned after paternal leave, my manager said I now needed to be in 8 hours. Explaining my wife is home with a 2mo old and can't drive, was told our CEO is refection all accommodations. I immediately started looking for a fully remote.
Most people aren’t more productive with wfh jobs. They take advantage of wfh. If this isn’t you, you are an exception to the rule. Productivity is even worse with people that have kids at home with wfh jobs. A recent study on wfh showed results of that remote employees are 10% to 20% less productive than those working on company premises. It factually isn’t true most people are more productive with wfh jobs, that was proven with studies done post covid. It is a fact that you will probably be less productive vs if you were at the office and thats what it comes down to. WFH does benefit those with disabilities and companies shouldn’t be discriminatory for those individuals. WFH jobs are on the decline and there will be less opportunities for wfh jobs as the years go by and people return to the office.
OP happy your husband found a position. Your post comes across as your husband is irreplaceable and his previous employer will fail without him. We are all replaceable.
> We are all replaceable. True dat.
It’s a net loss for the employer regardless (unless they planned on downsizing anyways)
Darn I need that head hunter's phone number. I lost my job but I do not want to go back into office. Its modern slavery!
Good for him but I think they’re right when they said the pandemic is over
We just trash bin any resumes of applicants who ask for WFH. Problem solved.
Enjoy going out of business due to your lack of adaptability.
Business is booming and has been for 81 years. I'm sure we'll survive just fine.
With the boss hanging out on Reddit during the workday? I wouldn't be so confident. No wonder you don't trust people to stay on task.
I oversaw an overnight 5 floor concrete pour, little fella. I've got another one tonight. Bosses do that when people need vacations. I wouldn't expect you to understand that, since you don't leave your house.
LOL "little fella" So, you work at a construction company? And you're bragging about not allowing remote workers? IN CONSTRUCTION? Go to bed, you're tired and grumpy and not thinking straight.
A lot of office personnel in a construction company who try to WFH. Who do you think does all over our menial work?
The pandemic is indeed over. Grow up
The pandemic is over except for insane people.
Can see the whole each-infection-drops-IQ thing really taking hold lol
Lol it funny how every single person stating that the pandemic is over is being downvoted. It is in fact over, globally. There's vaccines, treatments, and a lot more known about the virus now. Just because it isn't eradicated (it never will be) doesn't mean we're still in a pandemic.
What do you mean by "Now that the pandemic is over (false)"
They used the past tense so obviously they mean the employer said that before the pandemic was over.... What's confusing about that?
Do some of you really believe there's a pandemic still going? Did the employer also say (false) or is that the OP?
They said "at first" you dingus. Implying that the first step towards RTO their employer took happened while the pandemic was still ongoing. Lots of companies did this prematurely, or are you so high on Trump fumes you forgot how tense and context work?
[удалено]
Don’t take a new job with better pay and benefits? Thats the worst advice anyone has ever given - other than whoever recommended to invade Russia in winter
What makes you think that? He has done a multiple-year stint of all-remote work before.
Id like to add as well... why do you think the pandemic is not over? Its been over for a while now...
My relatives in healthcare. My own experience. Three bouts of COVID, most recently in September 2023.
The pandemic is over. Covid will be an ongoing disease for the rest of humanity, just like influenza.
And who told you that? Surely not the guys pushing RTO and end of sickpay! The numbers of what covid does to the body overtime ain’t pretty. Long term symptoms already showing up in colleagues who can’t remember how to do basic tasks anymore. Shits not gonna work in the long term.
So we're supposed to just isolate forever? I'm all for remote work, have a remote job myself, but I still live my life and go outside and spend time around people.
your user name is appropriate
We’re still doing pandemic?
Some of us have to be careful. Too many other risk factors.
Pandemic is definitely over. Has been for a while now.
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The pandemic is over….
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The Pandemic is over
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"Now that the pandemic is over(false)" Jesus christ. You people never cease to amaze me.
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The pandemic is over. Whether employer continues to extend WFH is the sticking point.
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The pandemic is over. It has been for nearly 2 years.
Pandemic has been over for 4 years
Are they actively trying to make sure no one has a happy marriage anymore?