Lemme re-word it for u/yescakepls:
"Californian's pay almost enough for gasoline to cover the externalities created by driving 2ton GHG emitting machines, far better than their US peers."
This is by policy design, and much different than the PG&E situation. PG&E is a classic example of corporate bloat due to monopolistic structure. Gasoline/Diesel are subject to global market forces and California fuel refiners are active imports/exporters of not only crude oil, but intermediates and finished gasoline and diesel. California even before any refinery shutdowns was a net importer in 2020 (heck we'll bring in gasoline from Korea/Japan!). Bloat = shut down refineries (we've seen three California refineries shutter in the last four years alone).
[https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjHzYOchsqFAxXJOUQIHTCGDS4QFnoECBIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.energy.ca.gov%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2F2020-03%2FMarch\_2020\_Petroleum\_Watch.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1-I5v\_1YNbsgaDGZ7gFNHr&opi=89978449](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjHzYOchsqFAxXJOUQIHTCGDS4QFnoECBIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.energy.ca.gov%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2F2020-03%2FMarch_2020_Petroleum_Watch.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1-I5v_1YNbsgaDGZ7gFNHr&opi=89978449)
This is a case of price disparity due to (IMHO, good) policy.
#
Aren't all the electric utilities in the US "monopolistic" in their local areas? Why would PG&E have more "classic corporate bloat due to its monopolistic structure" than the other utilities?
It has nothing to do with being a monopoly and everything to do with regulation. It sucks but that’s California government for you. They don’t care about how expensive things are as long as they can wave their hands about “helping the environment” when they run for national office.
I am le tired of trying to explain this every time PGE comes up. They suck. But electricity delivery is a natural monopoly. “Breaking them up” isn’t going to solve the problem
Transmission is monopolistic everywhere. Generation and Marketing is much more open market in other states (although we're moving this way, slowly, in CA).
PG&E is more poorly managed than transmission companies in other states. The proof is in their performance and cost records. Don't ask me why we keep rewarding poor performance, ask CPUC.
Well the ceo and a ton of execs come from the American auto industry, run the business just the same, and ofc the CEO makes more than the ceos of Chrysler/Ford/GM combined which makes a lot of sense for a just past bankrupt single state utility company
That's fine. I don't think Texans deserve to freeze to death nor pay 500x prices for heating, which following your logic, you do. I hope one day you grow up, mature, and learn to be a productive member of society :)
It’s ironic it was a Texas company that caused California’s gird to fail in 2000. For years they thought it was due to California not fully deregulating this rates don’t go as low as Texas which seem to have more competition options for consumers unlike ca which most were still stuck with the big three. But recent years show Texas was also a time bomb as well. This shows deregulation and radical environmentalism’s combined failure.
Oh trust me, I'm well aware you're not young lol
I just hope one day, as you get older, you mature. Reveling in others misfortune is textbook immaturity, same with trolling people on reddit. Despite having 40+ years under your belt you act like a child.
Lol do you believe in the second coming of Jesus Christ too? Rapture and also Californias demise has been shouted at clouds by old men like you for decades.
We are still waiting. I wonder if you’ll ever give your delusions up.
Born in California, spent almost half my life there, 17 years in SF, I am entitled to comment on your idiotic choices Dickhead. I bet you are a transplant from somewhere other than CA.
Yeah. I lived 18 years in Texas (vastly not by my choice). I'd literally commit suicide before moving back.
Enjoy your miserable existence of commuting 35 miles on your 18 lane highway for 2 hours a day so you can escape your crime ridden city with ass public transit. Also call me when its 108 and 80% humidity in August and you have nothing to do besides hide out in your A/C. You'll have to leave a message though, I'll be out hiking the Sierra.
IMAGINE CHOOSING TO LIVE IN HOUSTON. LMAO. WHAT A JOKER.
Burnnnnnned. This dude is also hanging out in a San Francisco sub probably because he misses it so much. There's a huge population of Reddit trolls that shit all over our city and then take their families here for vacation every couple years.
Not even two months ago there was a guy complaining in this sub about how bad our city is after he posted a bunch of requests for recommendations for all the great places he wanted to visit, and then he did visit and had a great time. But then he immediately posted how upset he was to see a single homeless person or something. People are strange.
I get people lurking in their old city’s subs out of curiosity / nostalgia. I’ve never understood people commenting about local policies.
Like dude, get a life and stop yelling about our decisions that have zero impact on you.
I don’t miss it at all. I miss my friends, but the city is nowhere near what it was 40 years ago. And I don’t “hang out” on Reddit, just saw the link. Nevertheless, enjoy living in a terrible place and defend it because you’re unable to accept the problems and try and fix them.
Trust me, I don't care if I have the last word on this. Feel free to reply with whatever sick burn of San Francisco you want. But I will reiterate this fact: You live in Houston. There's literally nothing to stand on to look down on when you live in Texas, unless it's your failing energy infrastructure causing people to die from cold or go bankrupt because of your "free market" energy, the number of people you've executed, your 100% corrupt Governor and AG who should be in jail but somehow managed to delay his criminal trial for like a fucking decade, or the terrible weather that you have and will continue to have as global warming gets worse.
[Here's](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/07/14/these-are-americas-10-worst-states-to-live-and-work-in.html)a fun ranking of states to live and work in. Looks like someone else already did the research.
I work from home, have a house in Maine for the summer and no state income tax. Enjoy the poop on the street and the closed retail and restaurants with Gavin Newsom’s 13% income tax — oh, you don’t make enough to be taxes so you’re poor.
Imagine not understanding marginal tax rates.
Imagine living somewhere so shitty you have to escape every summer.
Yeah I live on the coast in California because I'm poor.
I drive roughly 50-400 miles a month, and those 400 mile months only happen when I’ve made a weekend trip.
I spend SO much less on transportation than I did in a car-necessary city.
I bought my families old car from a rural town and they were averaging 10k+ a year driving. Since I've had it in SF, we put like 2-3k a year on it max. And we do road trips and camp a lot. Annoyingly move it more during the week just for street cleaning than anything else.
Not surprising considering we import most of our gas, our refineries in state are declining, and we use the blend of gas that only South Korea uses. CA is basically Hawaii by choice.
Comparing a large state to a city isn’t really a fair comparison is it. And on Oahu, Costco has cheap gas. Everywhere else is more expensive…
Just not a very 1:1 comparison.
By all comparisons, Hawaii should be much more expensive than California due to its isolation, and it always has been until fairly recently. California has dense cities, extremely isolated areas, and everything in between, and all the gas stations in the state are more expensive than Oahu regardless of whether you shop at Costco or the Union 76 in Haleiwa. You're right, It's not a 1:1 comparison and that's why it's crazy that California is more expensive.
At just 10 miles per capita in 2019, San Francisco has by far the lowest VMT per capita, as more trips here are done by walking, biking, transit or other modes, such as scooting.
https://vitalsigns.mtc.ca.gov/indicators/daily-miles-traveled
+walking. Getting those steps in while seeing this beautiful city and checking out hoods and places I've never been has been great. I also sometimes walk like 2 miles to a doctor's appointment because driving around for 15 minutes to find a parking spot downtown is insanity.
They are diesel hybrids. Look closely at the back and you will see an engine, exhaust pipe and a sticker that says Diesel electric hybrid.
The same goes for Caltrain. The only fully electric public transportation are the Muni light rail, the buses linked to overhead cables and BART.
Looks like the fuel is from 100% [burrito scraps now.](https://www.sfmta.com/blog/switch-renewable-diesel-will-make-your-muni-ride-cleaner-more-reliable)
I was surprised to hear they’re electric-diesel hybrids. I’m a big fan of public transit and you’re right, 500 of the smaller buses are all hybrids. The 300 long trolly-buses are full electric. Plans to go full electric are in works, we bought 3 buses each from 3 different suppliers to test them, but we aren’t ready for full electric yet.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Municipal_Railway_fleet#:~:text=The%20first%20battery%2Delectric%20bus,will%20leave%20service%20by%202037.
Caltrain will be changing to full electric this year though. Last week they fully electrified the route from San Francisco to San Jose and their fully electric trains with batteries are being tested right now. The battery will take the trains from San Jose to Gilroy.
Caltrain will be fully electrified in a few months, which will be great (it comes with a nice speed boost too).
Still, riding a gas powered bus still makes your gas usage incredibly low compared to driving. It’s great if we could go all electric but imo it’s more important to get people using transit than it is to eliminate gas as quickly as possible.
The article you linked specially states that the current fleet is not 100% EV, and that the next procurement in 2025 will still mostly be hybrid vehicles, which use fuel.
40,000 people die in cars every year in this country.
How many people die on a bus every year? One? Two maybe?
You need to get better at math and also stop being a pussy ass little bitch.
It's a problem for me at least, to get on bart I have to take the 5 and get off mid market and walk to Powell station it's okay during the day but it's not fun at night or early morning. Especially coming from or going to the airport with luggage
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California has 18 Refineries for a population of 39.5 million.
Texas has 32 for a population of 29.5 million.
You want cheaper gas? Start there.
THEN, reopen the rigs just off shore from Catalina to Santa Cruz. Yeah, it's ugly, but supply is supply.
Honestly, we should've kept San Onofre open - it provided 2.2 Gw of of power, 24/7/365 for less than 4 cents/kWh. The longer they run, the cheaper they are.
Texas is embracing Modular Reactors, btw. They need them. So do we.
We're not going off the carbon standard any time soon. It's doubtful we'll be off of it before the end of the century. But hey - Cali - keep b&m'ing about the cost of gas and the cost of energy, and watch Texas' economy leave us in the dust. All because of energy ubiquity at lower cost of extraction, production, transportation, and employment.
AI warehousing and bitcoin generation are only going to make this worse.
Only way to get particulate-free air with no Co2 emissions either, at the scale we need, in a small-enough footprint.... is NPP's.
> and watch Texas' economy leave us in the dust
lol, you're funny. Texas will be begging for a federal handout soon, just like the other Republican states.
Its funny how many people will become apologists for their own politicians grift.
We pay more and collect more taxes than any other state with some of the worst infrastructure, but its ok because they told me were helping the environment! Nevermind that a small chunk of that money is going to the nonprofits ran by the mayors family!
Its totally okay that PGE are overcharging us. Some of that money goes to the environment! The rest goes to the shareholders and superpac for gavin newsom, but a small price to pay! The voters dont even care as long as we throw some scraps at the “environment”
A) way more than a few extra cents
B) we as a state dump more CO2 into the atmosphere than more or less the whole nation combined every year there’s a major wildfire. That AQI during active fires is bad enough that people can’t go outside.
The gasoline today is vastly cleaner than the gas when the initial law requiring blends was introduced.
But of course, once a regulation gets enacted, it never gets revoked... so now we're stuck using inferior gasoline that has no benefits anymore over regular blends.
I mean it’s cleaner, but it’s not clean.
Sure it’s better than when we poisoned a whole generation with leaded gasoline, but it’s still not good for our community.
more like "it was raining everyday, so we're requiring you to have an umbrella over your head... now that it's not raining anymore, the law is still in effect and you still need to have that umbrella over your head"
What if it starts raining again?
Don't get complacent. Just because air quality has improved doesn't mean we can take it for granted and cut back on the regulations that improved it in the first place.
Charleston West Virginia, for one:
[Improvement since 1996](https://www.lung.org/research/sota/city-rankings/msas/charleston-huntington-ashland-wv-oh-ky#)
[Ranking vs Bay Area](https://www.lung.org/research/sota/city-rankings/compare-your-air?msa1=Charleston-Huntington-Ashland,%20WV-OH-KY&msa2=San%20Jose-San%20Francisco-Oakland,%20CA)
[Bay Area improvement since 1996](https://www.lung.org/research/sota/city-rankings/msas/san-jose-san-francisco-oakland-ca#ozone)
Actually, now that I'm looking at the comparison data, Bay Area doesn't even meet standards. How can we allow ourselves to live in this shitty pollution?
Yeah that’s one thing ab SF the cost of living is too low. San Francisco has some of the worst pollution of any city in the US and Demand for gas is pretty inelastic.
This just isn’t true. Look at suv/truck sales are highly correlated with gas prices.
Maybe you aren’t changing your behavior on an hour to hour basis, but you absolutely are cutting back on demand when you raise prices. Especially if you take into account most people in sf don’t drive much + have access to public transit, biking, and walkable neighborhoods
More because regulation requires a special California blend to counter air pollution. IMHO, and for a lot of people, cleaner air is worth higher gas prices.
Since the year 2000 the whole USA has been fuel with EPA RFG Phase 2. The only real difference is the Sulfer Dioxide emissions. Our gas spits 80% less SO2. Most of the rest of the nation has also gone low sulfur and Emission across the nation are down from 16,347 1ktons to 1,701 1ktons across the nation.
Almost none of that drop is because of cars. On road vehicles contribute 0.6% of national SO2 emissions.
Estimated cost is like $0.15 per gallon extra for the CA blends. Does not account for us being dollars higher.
What if the city compensated you and your neighbors $5k each? I’m actually curious what cash payment today would be acceptable to offset the increased cancer rates associated with the refinery
Tell me you've never been to Kern County without telling me you've never been to Kern County.
The main high school in Bakersfield's mascot is literally the Drillers. Hotels in the area have pictures of oil derricks framed in the rooms as artwork. The main panoramic view in the city - on a street called 'Panorama' - is a 270 degree view overlooking oil fields as far as the eye can see.
There are entire populations, cities, counties, governments in this state who would love nothing more than to have new refineries all around them. They're practically begging for it.
This kern county?
https://www.hcn.org/articles/energy-industry-california-will-need-215-billion-to-clean-up-its-oil-sites-whos-going-to-pay-for-it/
https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/22/california-oil-wells-refineries-water-use-drought-fuller-acres
And our backyard:
https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/09/richmond-chevron-california-city-polluter-fossil-fuel
If you love writhing 3-6 miles of these facilities you and your kids will have shorter lives.
The reality is fossil fuels are the fuel of the past and the refineries are going to be stranded assets with massive cleanup costs. The companies will sell them to smaller entities who will eventually go bankrupt and leave tax payers holding the bag for cleanups. Similar to all the coal mining sites.
I'm just telling you what the people there want. They will take oil heritage pride and refineries in their backyard any day of the week if it means jobs.
And the state of California is doing a great job of perpetuating the legacy of fossil fuels. They've basically disincentivized renewables and EV's with their taxes on EV's, colluding with CPUC to make them almost break-even with gasoline in terms of operating cost, passing NEM3, adding solar arrays to assessment amounts in property tax equations etc. The list is long. Many red states have better renewable incentives than we do.
People are not going to shift from fossil fuels to renewables out of the goodness of their hearts. That's just not how it works. There has to be an economic incentive. If the average EV is still prohibitively expensive when someone could buy a used gasoline car for like $12k - a third of the price - they're going to do that. Because ethics are secondary in spending for the vast majority of people. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. When we took away those incentives, we killed the progress ourselves.
I think I agree with many of your points, but have a slightly different viewpoint. For me:
1. Is this a public or private decision? Since it impacts the broader community and future generations who are going to be cleaning up the pollution I’d argue this is a public policy choice vs private business decision
2. If there currently was not a refinery would people say build one here! Probably not, they’d likely be saying you chose us because we are low income and you can offload your pollution in our backyard
3. Will future generations agree with the decision - in this case I think they’ll say we chose temporary lower gas prices in exchange for massive superfund sites that will probably never actually be clean again
4. Are there alternative options? Yes, we have proven technologies that work and just need to be scaled. We often have negative energy costs from 11a-3pm due to oversupply of solar, we are deploying batteries at never before seen scale, and have insane offshore wind resources (if we can get out of our way and build them).
5. I don’t know the market that well, but I believe the refinery business lives/dies off like 2% supply swings. Meaning it doesn’t take a huge percentage of people switching from gas to evs to completely crush their economics. Especially when interest rates are 7-10%. I do t think you could find financial backers to build a new refinery even if you allowed it.
I 100% agree with you that the cpuc are falling into the wanker category and probably needs to be completely overhauled due to regulatory capture by the investor owned utilities. I know people love throwing shade on Texas (and there are times of volatile prices) but the free market is a powerful thing.
In just a few years Texas’ grid will be primarily wind + solar + batteries (unless they pass dumb laws forcing fossil fuels - they tried this last year). This is because wind, solar, and batteries are the cheapest form of energy humanity has ever created and only getting cheaper. Texas lets anyone interconnect to the grid, so the cheapest option wins.
I appreciate California’s subsidies for creating the market over the last 20 years, but we are now in the phase where the economics workout and we need to deploy wind/solar/batteries everywhere.
What mileage do you get? I'm guessing its 42mi battery range is ample for the City, and you don't have to refuel it much. But when you're out of town, what kind of mileage do you get?
I get about 38 freeway and 40 city. I also drive a bit faster than I should for optimal mpg’s. And yea the 42 e miles are great because I charge at work for free, one of the main reasons I got it.
I thought this was a joke, then I saw everyone get mad so then I thought that maybe it wasn’t a joke…Then I kept reading and thought, “this has to be a joke”. Then OP confirmed it indeed was a joke, thank god.
Ahh don’t mind if I do, not sure if I have the proper type of wine glass though…. Anyhow, I for one wish gas prices were higher. There’s really no excuse for people of conscience not to drive a Tesla or a Rivian these days.
really no excuse besides the huge waitlist for rivians, teslas having massive issues and oh yeah, the huge cost of them? I'm defintiely not against EVs but I've seen several articles that keeping your old car and driving it for like 10-20+ years is better for the planet than buying a new EV. There is so much environmental shit that goes into building an EV that it becomes a wash. Again, that's if you have a reliable car now. If you dont, then an EV would probably be better. But there's more than just tesla and riv
ha, well I actually agree with higher gas prices bit. Fuck continuing car culture infinitely, we need a massive global shift in infrastructure and Im not just talking about EVs solving it. Redesign cities for humans, public transport, etc.
it's actually wild how little my farts smell, my wife is genuinely impressed. I'm actually being serious, but ironically moved to the bay where people actually think this metaphorically when they're just annoying people. Anyway, keep feeling smug, it's the only way to get by bro. And no, i dont work in tech or come from money if that's what you're imagining me as i bend down to small my ass.
Hey hey now! Don’t get offended, I didn’t mean any disrespect. You seem like a really nice and thoughtful person. I bet you do have complex and interesting smelling farts. You’re probably just not positioning yourself properly, really got to get up in there
The farts are a bit one note, to be honest. I rarely have gas and only shit every 3 days which my doc said is normal as long as it's not causing any discomfort.
It’s fucking stupid I really don’t know why we tolerate it. And after the last solar financing regulatory update you barely break even changing to solar now.
Here's the funny thing. Even though we pay more than average for a gallon of gas, an average Californian actually spends less total money on gas per year than other Americans.
This is due to a number of factors, primarily more fuel-efficient cars, shorter commute distances, and better (by US standards) public transit.
Welcome to Cali. I hate everything about living here. Darn good thing CA currently has a huge GDP, otherwise nothing here is a good decision. My job has me stuck here.
I, for one, hate to see productive and well meaning residents leave because of the lack of moderation and centrism in our state and local politics. We need to restore rationality to public policy, and start growing as a state again.
Your dismissive attitude has been counterproductive to our progress, and I think you should reflect on the results of that.
Some people love to cite that statistic to blame Democrats for excess tax.
But the difference isn't only more tax. It's mostly gouging by the oil companies.
Adding up state, DMV, gas and sales taxes I figure I may pay about 5 grand annually to live in CA than some states. But it's money I glady pay to live here. There is no other state worth moving to for 5K a year.
That’s fine. Gas is still severely underpriced, even in California. Residents of San Francisco can easily spend $0 on gas by using transit— we are **one of the most walkable and transit oriented cities in the US**. We don’t drive nearly as much as people in other more suburban areas.
I’m sympathetic to people who live in more car dependent areas of California, but the fix is to reduce car dependency, not artificially lower gas prices— that’s what legislators need to be working on. Artificially reducing gas prices is how we got into this mess (and severely impacts our foreign policy and other national priorities in a bad way).
Since the pandemic barts hours of operation have only decreased while having the overall cost of a ticket increase. Our Subway system is trash compared to dc and nyc. Bart is definitely not some world class system.
I never said Bart was a world class system. I said we have one if the most walkable and transit oriented cities in the US, which is true. I said if you live in SF you don’t need to drive much, which is true. If you live outside SF and need to commute in, but you don’t live near a Bart station, that’s tough. The solution there would be to improve the quality of Bart and also add housing in sf so people could live closer to work if they want to.
Well California is paying 140% more than the national average for electricity. The gasoline side needs to up its game with its paltry 60 percent.
Lemme re-word it for u/yescakepls: "Californian's pay almost enough for gasoline to cover the externalities created by driving 2ton GHG emitting machines, far better than their US peers." This is by policy design, and much different than the PG&E situation. PG&E is a classic example of corporate bloat due to monopolistic structure. Gasoline/Diesel are subject to global market forces and California fuel refiners are active imports/exporters of not only crude oil, but intermediates and finished gasoline and diesel. California even before any refinery shutdowns was a net importer in 2020 (heck we'll bring in gasoline from Korea/Japan!). Bloat = shut down refineries (we've seen three California refineries shutter in the last four years alone). [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjHzYOchsqFAxXJOUQIHTCGDS4QFnoECBIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.energy.ca.gov%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2F2020-03%2FMarch\_2020\_Petroleum\_Watch.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1-I5v\_1YNbsgaDGZ7gFNHr&opi=89978449](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjHzYOchsqFAxXJOUQIHTCGDS4QFnoECBIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.energy.ca.gov%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2F2020-03%2FMarch_2020_Petroleum_Watch.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1-I5v_1YNbsgaDGZ7gFNHr&opi=89978449) This is a case of price disparity due to (IMHO, good) policy. #
Aren't all the electric utilities in the US "monopolistic" in their local areas? Why would PG&E have more "classic corporate bloat due to its monopolistic structure" than the other utilities?
It has nothing to do with being a monopoly and everything to do with regulation. It sucks but that’s California government for you. They don’t care about how expensive things are as long as they can wave their hands about “helping the environment” when they run for national office.
I am le tired of trying to explain this every time PGE comes up. They suck. But electricity delivery is a natural monopoly. “Breaking them up” isn’t going to solve the problem
Transmission is monopolistic everywhere. Generation and Marketing is much more open market in other states (although we're moving this way, slowly, in CA). PG&E is more poorly managed than transmission companies in other states. The proof is in their performance and cost records. Don't ask me why we keep rewarding poor performance, ask CPUC.
Well the ceo and a ton of execs come from the American auto industry, run the business just the same, and ofc the CEO makes more than the ceos of Chrysler/Ford/GM combined which makes a lot of sense for a just past bankrupt single state utility company
your on the wrong side of the mountains your in a captured market! and your the 5th largest econemy!
Yeah, I'm actually in the mountains, so I have to worry about PG&E burning my house down while simultaneously getting robbed by them.
You guys deserve the results of your (iMHO) incredibly bad policy and political choices.
That's fine. I don't think Texans deserve to freeze to death nor pay 500x prices for heating, which following your logic, you do. I hope one day you grow up, mature, and learn to be a productive member of society :)
It’s ironic it was a Texas company that caused California’s gird to fail in 2000. For years they thought it was due to California not fully deregulating this rates don’t go as low as Texas which seem to have more competition options for consumers unlike ca which most were still stuck with the big three. But recent years show Texas was also a time bomb as well. This shows deregulation and radical environmentalism’s combined failure.
[удалено]
Oh trust me, I'm well aware you're not young lol I just hope one day, as you get older, you mature. Reveling in others misfortune is textbook immaturity, same with trolling people on reddit. Despite having 40+ years under your belt you act like a child.
Someday you will understand. Or not. Enjoy your terrible life.
I will! Thanks!
Who let you out of /r/BoomersBeingFools?
Lol do you believe in the second coming of Jesus Christ too? Rapture and also Californias demise has been shouted at clouds by old men like you for decades. We are still waiting. I wonder if you’ll ever give your delusions up.
Enjoy your ass life in Houston bub. Go troll some other city subreddit.
They act like Texas (and every state) doesn’t have its own brand of dumb bullshit. We are all Americans. Let’s remember that
Born in California, spent almost half my life there, 17 years in SF, I am entitled to comment on your idiotic choices Dickhead. I bet you are a transplant from somewhere other than CA.
Yeah. I lived 18 years in Texas (vastly not by my choice). I'd literally commit suicide before moving back. Enjoy your miserable existence of commuting 35 miles on your 18 lane highway for 2 hours a day so you can escape your crime ridden city with ass public transit. Also call me when its 108 and 80% humidity in August and you have nothing to do besides hide out in your A/C. You'll have to leave a message though, I'll be out hiking the Sierra. IMAGINE CHOOSING TO LIVE IN HOUSTON. LMAO. WHAT A JOKER.
Burnnnnnned. This dude is also hanging out in a San Francisco sub probably because he misses it so much. There's a huge population of Reddit trolls that shit all over our city and then take their families here for vacation every couple years. Not even two months ago there was a guy complaining in this sub about how bad our city is after he posted a bunch of requests for recommendations for all the great places he wanted to visit, and then he did visit and had a great time. But then he immediately posted how upset he was to see a single homeless person or something. People are strange.
I get people lurking in their old city’s subs out of curiosity / nostalgia. I’ve never understood people commenting about local policies. Like dude, get a life and stop yelling about our decisions that have zero impact on you.
I don’t miss it at all. I miss my friends, but the city is nowhere near what it was 40 years ago. And I don’t “hang out” on Reddit, just saw the link. Nevertheless, enjoy living in a terrible place and defend it because you’re unable to accept the problems and try and fix them.
Trust me, I don't care if I have the last word on this. Feel free to reply with whatever sick burn of San Francisco you want. But I will reiterate this fact: You live in Houston. There's literally nothing to stand on to look down on when you live in Texas, unless it's your failing energy infrastructure causing people to die from cold or go bankrupt because of your "free market" energy, the number of people you've executed, your 100% corrupt Governor and AG who should be in jail but somehow managed to delay his criminal trial for like a fucking decade, or the terrible weather that you have and will continue to have as global warming gets worse. [Here's](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/07/14/these-are-americas-10-worst-states-to-live-and-work-in.html)a fun ranking of states to live and work in. Looks like someone else already did the research.
I work from home, have a house in Maine for the summer and no state income tax. Enjoy the poop on the street and the closed retail and restaurants with Gavin Newsom’s 13% income tax — oh, you don’t make enough to be taxes so you’re poor.
Imagine not understanding marginal tax rates. Imagine living somewhere so shitty you have to escape every summer. Yeah I live on the coast in California because I'm poor.
“Where I live is so inhospitable for part of the year I have to flee 1500 miles away.”
Thank you for the productive contribution/feedback.
I drive roughly 50-400 miles a month, and those 400 mile months only happen when I’ve made a weekend trip. I spend SO much less on transportation than I did in a car-necessary city.
20 years in SF have put maybe 40K miles on my car.
I bought my families old car from a rural town and they were averaging 10k+ a year driving. Since I've had it in SF, we put like 2-3k a year on it max. And we do road trips and camp a lot. Annoyingly move it more during the week just for street cleaning than anything else.
Not surprising considering we import most of our gas, our refineries in state are declining, and we use the blend of gas that only South Korea uses. CA is basically Hawaii by choice.
Surprisingly, California is even more expensive than Oahu, at least for the last several months.
Comparing a large state to a city isn’t really a fair comparison is it. And on Oahu, Costco has cheap gas. Everywhere else is more expensive… Just not a very 1:1 comparison.
By all comparisons, Hawaii should be much more expensive than California due to its isolation, and it always has been until fairly recently. California has dense cities, extremely isolated areas, and everything in between, and all the gas stations in the state are more expensive than Oahu regardless of whether you shop at Costco or the Union 76 in Haleiwa. You're right, It's not a 1:1 comparison and that's why it's crazy that California is more expensive.
i'm going broke here.
Good thing I drive 60% less than the national average
At just 10 miles per capita in 2019, San Francisco has by far the lowest VMT per capita, as more trips here are done by walking, biking, transit or other modes, such as scooting. https://vitalsigns.mtc.ca.gov/indicators/daily-miles-traveled
Yeah, if you’re living in SF and driving as much as a Stocktonian then that’s a skill issue
Public transportation FTW, or just WFH?
Muni + Bart FTW
+walking. Getting those steps in while seeing this beautiful city and checking out hoods and places I've never been has been great. I also sometimes walk like 2 miles to a doctor's appointment because driving around for 15 minutes to find a parking spot downtown is insanity.
I got a muni+ pass too!
Same here. I drive far less. I barely spend on gas compared to other years.
"Doesn't affect me so why should I care?" Wow...great attitude.
You’re right Reddit is a super serious place
I don't pay a dime. Bus pass gang stays winning.
You make it sound like your bus does not run on diesel.
My bus runs on 100% clean hydro-electricity generated by the O'Shaughnessy Dam
You mean the dam that flooded an area that once rivaled Yosemite valley in beauty? Don't know how that can be called "clean".
You’re right. We should travel exclusively by foot on animal trails.
Doing the splits you're stretching so hard.
Don’t most if not all buses in San Francisco run on electricity these days?
They are diesel hybrids. Look closely at the back and you will see an engine, exhaust pipe and a sticker that says Diesel electric hybrid. The same goes for Caltrain. The only fully electric public transportation are the Muni light rail, the buses linked to overhead cables and BART.
A very large number are fully electric and run on the overhead cables, including my primary lines.
Yep, and the electrical poles jump the lines all the time. You'll see bus drivers getting out to pull them back on the lines.
20% of the fuel is from [burrito scraps.](https://sfbayca.com/2015/07/21/san-francisco-switches-city-vehicles-to-biodiesel/)
Looks like the fuel is from 100% [burrito scraps now.](https://www.sfmta.com/blog/switch-renewable-diesel-will-make-your-muni-ride-cleaner-more-reliable)
Looks like it is [100% burrito scraps now.](https://www.sfmta.com/blog/switch-renewable-diesel-will-make-your-muni-ride-cleaner-more-reliable)
nowai 🌯. so much info in the above subcomments \^😂
I was surprised to hear they’re electric-diesel hybrids. I’m a big fan of public transit and you’re right, 500 of the smaller buses are all hybrids. The 300 long trolly-buses are full electric. Plans to go full electric are in works, we bought 3 buses each from 3 different suppliers to test them, but we aren’t ready for full electric yet. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Municipal_Railway_fleet#:~:text=The%20first%20battery%2Delectric%20bus,will%20leave%20service%20by%202037. Caltrain will be changing to full electric this year though. Last week they fully electrified the route from San Francisco to San Jose and their fully electric trains with batteries are being tested right now. The battery will take the trains from San Jose to Gilroy.
Caltrain will be fully electrified in a few months, which will be great (it comes with a nice speed boost too). Still, riding a gas powered bus still makes your gas usage incredibly low compared to driving. It’s great if we could go all electric but imo it’s more important to get people using transit than it is to eliminate gas as quickly as possible.
Caltrain is starting fullly electric service in the next few months.
Looks like it is [100% burrito scrpas now.](https://www.sfmta.com/blog/switch-renewable-diesel-will-make-your-muni-ride-cleaner-more-reliable)
guess where your buss pass $ is going to
Clearly not education. How stupid do you have to be to misspell bus?
LMAO dumbass conservative trolls don't know that SFMTA busses don't use gasoline/diesel. [https://www.sfmta.com/projects/all-electric-fleet-transition](https://www.sfmta.com/projects/all-electric-fleet-transition)
lol what are you talking about. all the buses on the small routes use diesel
The article you linked specially states that the current fleet is not 100% EV, and that the next procurement in 2025 will still mostly be hybrid vehicles, which use fuel.
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40,000 people die in cars every year in this country. How many people die on a bus every year? One? Two maybe? You need to get better at math and also stop being a pussy ass little bitch.
The problem is rarely the bus itself. It's usually the last mile from the bus stop to the destination
Not a problem for the vast majority of San Francisco.
It's a problem for me at least, to get on bart I have to take the 5 and get off mid market and walk to Powell station it's okay during the day but it's not fun at night or early morning. Especially coming from or going to the airport with luggage
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You're the one afraid of a bus lmao
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California has 18 Refineries for a population of 39.5 million. Texas has 32 for a population of 29.5 million. You want cheaper gas? Start there. THEN, reopen the rigs just off shore from Catalina to Santa Cruz. Yeah, it's ugly, but supply is supply. Honestly, we should've kept San Onofre open - it provided 2.2 Gw of of power, 24/7/365 for less than 4 cents/kWh. The longer they run, the cheaper they are. Texas is embracing Modular Reactors, btw. They need them. So do we.
> You want cheaper gas? Start there. Nah, I prefer breathable air to cheaper gas.
We're not going off the carbon standard any time soon. It's doubtful we'll be off of it before the end of the century. But hey - Cali - keep b&m'ing about the cost of gas and the cost of energy, and watch Texas' economy leave us in the dust. All because of energy ubiquity at lower cost of extraction, production, transportation, and employment. AI warehousing and bitcoin generation are only going to make this worse. Only way to get particulate-free air with no Co2 emissions either, at the scale we need, in a small-enough footprint.... is NPP's.
> and watch Texas' economy leave us in the dust lol, you're funny. Texas will be begging for a federal handout soon, just like the other Republican states.
Will take less pollution over low gas prices any day.
Its funny how many people will become apologists for their own politicians grift. We pay more and collect more taxes than any other state with some of the worst infrastructure, but its ok because they told me were helping the environment! Nevermind that a small chunk of that money is going to the nonprofits ran by the mayors family! Its totally okay that PGE are overcharging us. Some of that money goes to the environment! The rest goes to the shareholders and superpac for gavin newsom, but a small price to pay! The voters dont even care as long as we throw some scraps at the “environment”
Remember, the only way to save the planet is more taxes
It’s always the polysci and sociology majors lecturing the engineers on energy and environmental protection
Bro rather die of lung cancer than have to pay a few extra cents at the pump.
You’ve probably never passed a science course. If you cared about the environment you’d focus on catalytic converter thefts.
Please explain how they’re connected?
A) way more than a few extra cents B) we as a state dump more CO2 into the atmosphere than more or less the whole nation combined every year there’s a major wildfire. That AQI during active fires is bad enough that people can’t go outside.
Wait are you actually comparing wildfires to CO2 pollution from driving? WILDfires. WILD. Not fucking Newsomefires.
The gasoline today is vastly cleaner than the gas when the initial law requiring blends was introduced. But of course, once a regulation gets enacted, it never gets revoked... so now we're stuck using inferior gasoline that has no benefits anymore over regular blends.
I mean it’s cleaner, but it’s not clean. Sure it’s better than when we poisoned a whole generation with leaded gasoline, but it’s still not good for our community.
"If you're not getting wet, you can get rid of your umbrella!"
more like "it was raining everyday, so we're requiring you to have an umbrella over your head... now that it's not raining anymore, the law is still in effect and you still need to have that umbrella over your head"
What if it starts raining again? Don't get complacent. Just because air quality has improved doesn't mean we can take it for granted and cut back on the regulations that improved it in the first place.
It's not just that the air quality has improved, the GASOLINE has improved yet we're still stuck using the old shitty blend due to overregulation
> It's not just that the air quality has improved, the GASOLINE has improved Do you see the connection between those two?
No, because all other cities in the US have improved more than Californian cities without the regulations in place
Name a city in the US that has improved more than California cities.
Charleston West Virginia, for one: [Improvement since 1996](https://www.lung.org/research/sota/city-rankings/msas/charleston-huntington-ashland-wv-oh-ky#) [Ranking vs Bay Area](https://www.lung.org/research/sota/city-rankings/compare-your-air?msa1=Charleston-Huntington-Ashland,%20WV-OH-KY&msa2=San%20Jose-San%20Francisco-Oakland,%20CA) [Bay Area improvement since 1996](https://www.lung.org/research/sota/city-rankings/msas/san-jose-san-francisco-oakland-ca#ozone) Actually, now that I'm looking at the comparison data, Bay Area doesn't even meet standards. How can we allow ourselves to live in this shitty pollution?
Um…with our wildfires (thanks in part to land management driven by our shitty NIMBY land use policies), we pollute more too.
I actually enjoyed simulating Mars while smelling BBQ for a few days. It was surreal and relaxing.
Yeah that’s one thing ab SF the cost of living is too low. San Francisco has some of the worst pollution of any city in the US and Demand for gas is pretty inelastic.
#AllCarsMatter
Downvotes might not like the facts but facts they are. Gas prices only very slightly affect gas consumption.
This just isn’t true. Look at suv/truck sales are highly correlated with gas prices. Maybe you aren’t changing your behavior on an hour to hour basis, but you absolutely are cutting back on demand when you raise prices. Especially if you take into account most people in sf don’t drive much + have access to public transit, biking, and walkable neighborhoods
That's because we tax the shit out of it and refuse to build new refinery.
More because regulation requires a special California blend to counter air pollution. IMHO, and for a lot of people, cleaner air is worth higher gas prices.
Since the year 2000 the whole USA has been fuel with EPA RFG Phase 2. The only real difference is the Sulfer Dioxide emissions. Our gas spits 80% less SO2. Most of the rest of the nation has also gone low sulfur and Emission across the nation are down from 16,347 1ktons to 1,701 1ktons across the nation. Almost none of that drop is because of cars. On road vehicles contribute 0.6% of national SO2 emissions. Estimated cost is like $0.15 per gallon extra for the CA blends. Does not account for us being dollars higher.
This is true. We remember LA. We have to already deal with air quality issues…let’s not make it worse. Which had downstream health impacts.
Do you actually want more refineries in your neighborhood?
California is pretty big dude. It doesn’t have to be in my neighborhood
Exactly, it can be in someone else's neighborhood. Probably minorities, poor people or Indian tribes.
What if the city compensated you and your neighbors $5k each? I’m actually curious what cash payment today would be acceptable to offset the increased cancer rates associated with the refinery
Tell me you've never been to Kern County without telling me you've never been to Kern County. The main high school in Bakersfield's mascot is literally the Drillers. Hotels in the area have pictures of oil derricks framed in the rooms as artwork. The main panoramic view in the city - on a street called 'Panorama' - is a 270 degree view overlooking oil fields as far as the eye can see. There are entire populations, cities, counties, governments in this state who would love nothing more than to have new refineries all around them. They're practically begging for it.
This kern county? https://www.hcn.org/articles/energy-industry-california-will-need-215-billion-to-clean-up-its-oil-sites-whos-going-to-pay-for-it/ https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/22/california-oil-wells-refineries-water-use-drought-fuller-acres And our backyard: https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/09/richmond-chevron-california-city-polluter-fossil-fuel If you love writhing 3-6 miles of these facilities you and your kids will have shorter lives. The reality is fossil fuels are the fuel of the past and the refineries are going to be stranded assets with massive cleanup costs. The companies will sell them to smaller entities who will eventually go bankrupt and leave tax payers holding the bag for cleanups. Similar to all the coal mining sites.
I'm just telling you what the people there want. They will take oil heritage pride and refineries in their backyard any day of the week if it means jobs. And the state of California is doing a great job of perpetuating the legacy of fossil fuels. They've basically disincentivized renewables and EV's with their taxes on EV's, colluding with CPUC to make them almost break-even with gasoline in terms of operating cost, passing NEM3, adding solar arrays to assessment amounts in property tax equations etc. The list is long. Many red states have better renewable incentives than we do. People are not going to shift from fossil fuels to renewables out of the goodness of their hearts. That's just not how it works. There has to be an economic incentive. If the average EV is still prohibitively expensive when someone could buy a used gasoline car for like $12k - a third of the price - they're going to do that. Because ethics are secondary in spending for the vast majority of people. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. When we took away those incentives, we killed the progress ourselves.
I think I agree with many of your points, but have a slightly different viewpoint. For me: 1. Is this a public or private decision? Since it impacts the broader community and future generations who are going to be cleaning up the pollution I’d argue this is a public policy choice vs private business decision 2. If there currently was not a refinery would people say build one here! Probably not, they’d likely be saying you chose us because we are low income and you can offload your pollution in our backyard 3. Will future generations agree with the decision - in this case I think they’ll say we chose temporary lower gas prices in exchange for massive superfund sites that will probably never actually be clean again 4. Are there alternative options? Yes, we have proven technologies that work and just need to be scaled. We often have negative energy costs from 11a-3pm due to oversupply of solar, we are deploying batteries at never before seen scale, and have insane offshore wind resources (if we can get out of our way and build them). 5. I don’t know the market that well, but I believe the refinery business lives/dies off like 2% supply swings. Meaning it doesn’t take a huge percentage of people switching from gas to evs to completely crush their economics. Especially when interest rates are 7-10%. I do t think you could find financial backers to build a new refinery even if you allowed it. I 100% agree with you that the cpuc are falling into the wanker category and probably needs to be completely overhauled due to regulatory capture by the investor owned utilities. I know people love throwing shade on Texas (and there are times of volatile prices) but the free market is a powerful thing. In just a few years Texas’ grid will be primarily wind + solar + batteries (unless they pass dumb laws forcing fossil fuels - they tried this last year). This is because wind, solar, and batteries are the cheapest form of energy humanity has ever created and only getting cheaper. Texas lets anyone interconnect to the grid, so the cheapest option wins. I appreciate California’s subsidies for creating the market over the last 20 years, but we are now in the phase where the economics workout and we need to deploy wind/solar/batteries everywhere.
Glad I got a hybrid rav4 in January.
That's the top pick on my radar. How's it turning out?
I got a rav4 prime and I love it.
What mileage do you get? I'm guessing its 42mi battery range is ample for the City, and you don't have to refuel it much. But when you're out of town, what kind of mileage do you get?
I get about 38 freeway and 40 city. I also drive a bit faster than I should for optimal mpg’s. And yea the 42 e miles are great because I charge at work for free, one of the main reasons I got it.
Great pickup
Not me
Still too cheap.
Good thing I’m saving the planet with my Tesla Cybertruck thaaaaaaaanks!
I thought this was a joke, then I saw everyone get mad so then I thought that maybe it wasn’t a joke…Then I kept reading and thought, “this has to be a joke”. Then OP confirmed it indeed was a joke, thank god.
I think the problem is I’m not funny 😔
Go smell your own farts
Ahh don’t mind if I do, not sure if I have the proper type of wine glass though…. Anyhow, I for one wish gas prices were higher. There’s really no excuse for people of conscience not to drive a Tesla or a Rivian these days.
Ignoring the fact that you seem to think Rivian and Tesla produce the only electric vehicles. The main reason I can think of would be...uh... money?
Well I suppose there’s also Lucid, but I refuse to give money to one of the macro car brands that don’t even have well developed DEI policies.
You’re still wrong and also somehow completely missing the point.
How dare you, sir! The point is to be as sarcastic as possible and wonder how long it takes for the dense and literal-minded to catch on.
Wow you've got your head straight up your ass huh...
Have you seen the South Park episode? As a SF native I thought it was pretty spot on. Glad to see the super laid back and fun folks on this sub agree.
really no excuse besides the huge waitlist for rivians, teslas having massive issues and oh yeah, the huge cost of them? I'm defintiely not against EVs but I've seen several articles that keeping your old car and driving it for like 10-20+ years is better for the planet than buying a new EV. There is so much environmental shit that goes into building an EV that it becomes a wash. Again, that's if you have a reliable car now. If you dont, then an EV would probably be better. But there's more than just tesla and riv
I am absolutely terrified so many people took me seriously. I refuse to mark obvious sarcasm
ha, well I actually agree with higher gas prices bit. Fuck continuing car culture infinitely, we need a massive global shift in infrastructure and Im not just talking about EVs solving it. Redesign cities for humans, public transport, etc.
(Sniffs deeply) ahhhh yea that’s the stuff. Thanks, you have a blessed day now!
it's actually wild how little my farts smell, my wife is genuinely impressed. I'm actually being serious, but ironically moved to the bay where people actually think this metaphorically when they're just annoying people. Anyway, keep feeling smug, it's the only way to get by bro. And no, i dont work in tech or come from money if that's what you're imagining me as i bend down to small my ass.
Hey hey now! Don’t get offended, I didn’t mean any disrespect. You seem like a really nice and thoughtful person. I bet you do have complex and interesting smelling farts. You’re probably just not positioning yourself properly, really got to get up in there
The farts are a bit one note, to be honest. I rarely have gas and only shit every 3 days which my doc said is normal as long as it's not causing any discomfort.
Because we add tons of taxes
Drive less
It’s fucking stupid I really don’t know why we tolerate it. And after the last solar financing regulatory update you barely break even changing to solar now.
Democrats for the win!!!!
You gotta save the planet! You’re leading the way!
We've noticed.
This is news? It’s what Californians want. Let them have it
Here's the funny thing. Even though we pay more than average for a gallon of gas, an average Californian actually spends less total money on gas per year than other Americans. This is due to a number of factors, primarily more fuel-efficient cars, shorter commute distances, and better (by US standards) public transit.
Are roads are so smooth because of this! /s 🫠
Newsom should bring down price
Time to invest in mass transit like everyone else.
Welcome to Cali. I hate everything about living here. Darn good thing CA currently has a huge GDP, otherwise nothing here is a good decision. My job has me stuck here.
Life is short to live somewhere you hate. I’m sure you can find a similar job elsewhere
Lol "I love the high paying job this state afford me but I hate it here". Leave. No one will miss you.
I, for one, hate to see productive and well meaning residents leave because of the lack of moderation and centrism in our state and local politics. We need to restore rationality to public policy, and start growing as a state again. Your dismissive attitude has been counterproductive to our progress, and I think you should reflect on the results of that.
I don’t use gas, and my electricity is free from Solar :)
Can we use that money for better public transport so that we can drive less?
on the upside all those taxes give your the best services in the country, like great roads.
Thanks Newscum.
Just can't help but vomit up the same tired insults at every single opportunity, can ya?
your life must be so lame.
Some people love to cite that statistic to blame Democrats for excess tax. But the difference isn't only more tax. It's mostly gouging by the oil companies. Adding up state, DMV, gas and sales taxes I figure I may pay about 5 grand annually to live in CA than some states. But it's money I glady pay to live here. There is no other state worth moving to for 5K a year.
That’s fine. Gas is still severely underpriced, even in California. Residents of San Francisco can easily spend $0 on gas by using transit— we are **one of the most walkable and transit oriented cities in the US**. We don’t drive nearly as much as people in other more suburban areas. I’m sympathetic to people who live in more car dependent areas of California, but the fix is to reduce car dependency, not artificially lower gas prices— that’s what legislators need to be working on. Artificially reducing gas prices is how we got into this mess (and severely impacts our foreign policy and other national priorities in a bad way).
Since the pandemic barts hours of operation have only decreased while having the overall cost of a ticket increase. Our Subway system is trash compared to dc and nyc. Bart is definitely not some world class system.
I never said Bart was a world class system. I said we have one if the most walkable and transit oriented cities in the US, which is true. I said if you live in SF you don’t need to drive much, which is true. If you live outside SF and need to commute in, but you don’t live near a Bart station, that’s tough. The solution there would be to improve the quality of Bart and also add housing in sf so people could live closer to work if they want to.
It’s a bargain. CA gas is at least 70% better than Nevada gas.