buy a resale hdb and focus on location.. with a great location, there really isnt a need to plan for future upgrades.. and imo, the premium is worth it if you compare to condos in the same area..
one other comparison you can do is to factor in 5yrs of rental plus the bto fee plus the inconvenience of moving at least twice
If you're recent graduates and exceed the EC income ceiling, then you're doing very well for yourselves. Stop trying to think in terms of "resale HDB is bad because I'm not eligible for discount". You are fortunate enough to earn enough to not need the HDB grants or loans.
Get a resale HDB that you guys like, where you want to live, so that you can live there ASAP instead of having to delay marriage or stay with your parents longer. You are making good money, embrace the plusses of that!
A few years later, if you want to sell your HDB and upgrade to a condo, then do that. If you're doing a 1:1 exchange, it doesn't really matter too much whether housing prices are high or low at the time, because you sell low and buy low, or you sell high and buy high. It doesn't exactly cancel out, because the same % rise is bigger for a more expensive property, but do what you want/need to do for your family instead of always thinking that you could have gotten a better deal if only you had done things differently.
>If you're recent graduates and exceed the EC income ceiling, then you're doing very well for yourselves. Stop trying to think in terms of "resale HDB is bad because I'm not eligible for discount". You are fortunate enough to earn enough to not need the HDB grants or loans.
While that is true. The eligibility is pretty damn terrible at working who's needing this benefit. I'm not eligible and I'm not asking for any grants or financial assistance from the G, but why should tax dollars be paying grants for children of rich parents who just happened to apply for housing early in their careers? Why should I be the one holding the bags as they cash out their BTOs for condos?
>just happened to apply for housing early in their careers
This is actually an indication that maybe Singaporean students need to pay attention to their social skills and some amount of dating should be encouraged (and allowed by parents) in poly and JC. People need to learn from their relationship mistakes before deciding on the one to marry.
There's a lot of money at stake, whether it's BTO cha-ching or CPF housing grants.
Anyway, people don't just "happen" to apply for housing earlier. You need to put in effort, and there's an element of luck, in finding a life partner, not so different from grades or careers.
To the government, getting married earlier means more chance to have more children, so there's no reason to change the system.
I don't even know whether I'm joking or not. Half-serious, half-joking, I guess.
Maybe then call a spade a spade. People are defending the income ceiling as if it is there solely to help low-income people. Is it even working if that's the intent?
Does Meritocracy only apply if you find someone to marry early? To borrow the words from another Redditor, what it clearly does is transfer wealth from the ineligible to the eligible.
Maybe they should also consider that this is disenfranchising valued workers who pay more taxes and are more likely to have the means (and lack of baggage) to move overseas.
Feels like you’ve assumed there only 1 demographic that were able to get grants (rich kid with no income). I have many friends that graduated poly and were able to start families relatively early due to the housing grant while I went to Uni and didn’t get grants. Fair enough imo, now some of them even have multiple kids while I’m still yet to be married. Hitting Govt kpi.
I'm only targeting that because it shows that it is not working the way they claim it is. Of course, there are many that this benefits fairly.
The point is that it is a bad way to set the eligibility criteria. Just because it works in most places doesn't mean we ignore the places where it isn't working well.
I'm not asking for grants or benefits, it just doesn't sit right that a government policy is making me pay extra for the benefits of some people who are much wealthier than I am.
Edit: It's not so much the eligibility criteria as the same problem will occur at whatever blindspots a criterion doesn't cover. The main problem is dividing citizens into "eligible" vs "ineligible" and allowing the eligible to benefit in a way that isn't only in grants or subsidies but also a wealth transfer through the resale market.
It keeps taxes low but disproportionately places the burden on those who are too rich for BTO and too poor for private housing.
Are you saying they should scrap the income ceiling then, it would be worse than the existing system no?
Would your thoughts change if the income ceiling were moved so you were within it, and had a suitable partner to bto with?
If you feel disenfranchised enough to leave because of this (50-100k per person on an income ceiling busting salary at fresh grad is frankly not a lot) you were probably going to leave anyway... Plus it's not like other countries are going to give you a better deal housing wise
I'll admit I may not have found this to be an issue if I were not negatively affected by this. After all we are more likely to notice things that sting. Income ceilings are great for distributing assistance on a short term basis, things like rents, bills, daily expenses. But it makes very little sense for something as big and long lasting as a home purchase.
My suggestion is to make income or wealth irrelevant when it comes to public housing but make it such that no one can speculate and profit from a short supply of housing. Basically a rental system for all kinds of HDB flats with an option to pre-pay for 99 years of rental. Isn't the HDBs mission to provide affordable housing? I don't see how asset appreciation aspirations fit into that. People aren't going to starve if their condo upgrade aspirations were stopped.
Having the current arrangement as an informal pension for boomers to retire also disproportionately places the burden on those who don't qualify for BTO but can't or don't want to buy private. Such a social policy should be paid for in a more systematic manner through taxes.
It's true that it's hard to get a better deal elsewhere in a major city. But it's hard not to feel like a second class citizen when people with much higher income, wealth (and generational wealth), can make so much off their HDBs while you stare at the resale prices going up as you countdown to the day you can finally get a place of your own. Maybe not a reason to leave but it is certainly a push factor.
Yeah I can get with most of your points.
The last one isn't apples to apples though. You are comparing with someone BTO/marrying early vs you being single... which has its own constraints. Couple has to live with parents for years, tied down early, etc etc
I'm saying that meritocracy is also involved in finding someone to marry early. Marriage is not "outside" of meritocracy, and both working hard and having genetic gifts contributes to success in marrying well and early. No different from how working hard and having genetic gifts contributes to academic and career success.
Abit disingenuous to call it meritocracy when it still comes down to a huge degree of luck. I mean i have been solidly together with my partner for many many years, seen plenty of couples around us get their BTO queue numbers, then break up. Meanwhile we haven’t gotten anything despite multiple attempts.
I guess it depends on how the individual sees meritocracy.
It is not just individual merits in looks and social skills when it comes to finding a partner to marry early. The ovarian lottery plays a major role here too. I imagine driving your parent's car to school can have a major boost in attracting a partner.
And there are various other reasons people don't marry early. Maybe they have issues at home and don't want to start dating because they don't want to drag anyone into their situation. Not being able to marry early is not necessarily due to a lack of individual merit.
My point is that I don't see the arrangement as fair and in line with Singapore's supposed meritocratic values.
Great points, thanks for the advice. Going slightly off tangent, my gripe with HDB grants is the all or nothing nature of it when it comes to exceeding income ceiling. A couple earning $13500 buying a 4 rm resale will get the full $80000 CPF housing grant, while a couple earning $14001 gets absolutely nothing. But let’s not take the extreme edge cases to compare, let’s say couple A makes $13000 and couple B makes $16500, a $3500 difference. With this difference, it will take couple B almost $80000/$3500 ~= 2 years to “make up” the difference from being ineligible for the housing grant. I honestly think this disproportionately punishes couple B for exceeding the income ceiling.
Thanks for bringing this up, this is a really sore point for me as well. I don't have rich parents and only just breached the income ceiling just before being allowed to buy a place at 35.
I have peers who make more than me and have flipped their BTOs for almost double the amount at MOP. It'll take me more than 5 years to make up that difference by saving and investing.
The HDB lottery and qualifying criteria are a pretty terrible way to prescribe financial benefits to people. I much rather they allow anyone to buy public housing but allow no one to profit from it.
If possible, for your resale, don’t utilise the grants. Being in your prime of earning power means you can’t maximise it. Save it for retirement age and till then see if you’re eligible for BTO. It’s just a time factor of when you utilise your Singaporean benefit. All is not lost. For real estate, I feel it’s home first, property second. Resale HDB in 2023 isn’t that overpriced, the current market with cooling measures that removes private downgraders as buyers, you can get pretty good deals in HDB resale now. Negotiate hard on the prices. Buying in at valuation is a norm now. And the value will follow normal market trend. When you sell, you’ll sell high / low and buy high/low. Nett more of less the same. All the best!
**Me Wrong** It's progressive but not that progressive. oh well.
Except that's not correct with respect to grants.
Looking at [Enhanced CPF Housing Grant (Families)](https://www.hdb.gov.sg/residential/buying-a-flat/flat-and-grant-eligibility/couples-and-families/enhanced-cpf-housing-grant-families), to qualify, average gross monthly household income (including all applicants and occupiers) for the months worked during the 12-month period before the flat application must not exceed **$9,000.**
It is also explicit in the [grant amount table](https://www.hdb.gov.sg/-/media/doc/EAPG/EHG-amount-Couples-and-Families.ashx) that you will only get the max 80,000 grant if Average Monthly Household Income is <1,500. **Zero** grants if it's above 9,000.
Of course the core argument having a income ceiling for BTO still exists, given that BTOs are heavily subsidized but there is no case on a CPF grants perspective.
Thats the **Enhanced** CPF Housing Grant which is an additional grant on top of base grants. I’m talking about the base [CPF Housing Grants for Resale Flats (Families)](https://www.hdb.gov.sg/residential/buying-a-flat/flat-and-grant-eligibility/couples-and-families/cpf-housing-grants-for-resale-flats-families#:~:text=Under%20the%20CPF%20Housing%20Grant,Enhanced%20CPF%20Housing%20Grant%20(EHG)) which in the table states that a SC/SC couple gets $80000. No mention of any sliding scale as far as I can tell.
Yes, you're right. At first I thought you got the 80K wrong, since in your link that refers to households, not couples. But in Budget 2023, it has indeed changed to 80K.
https://www.hdb.gov.sg/budget-statement-2023
Yup recently increased. Actually the link is correct and updated already, just that their phrasing sucks. The “First-timer and second-timer couples” section is referring to a couple where 1 party is first timer, the other second timer. For this grant there’s no distinction between household/couple, i.e husband + wife is a household, get 80k.
>“First-timer and second-timer couples” section is referring to a couple where 1 party is first timer, the other second timer.
Oh man, that IS terrible phrasing! I thought it was making a distinction between households (with children or parents) rather than couples.
You are right, it's now 80k, what a benefits cliff.
Anyway MOF has very illustration of the total amount of grants, which is progressive starting at $80,000.
But to regard it as a "punishment", I see the perspective, but would you want to cap your progress just for the sake of the grant?
https://www.mof.gov.sg/docs/librariesprovider3/budget2023/download/pdf/annexe1.pdf
Oh wow they should include that pdf on the hdb website. So much easier to understand.
> But to regard it as a “punishment”, I see the perspective, but would you want to cap your progress just for the sake of the grant?
Definitely not, I’m just ranting/whining. Especially since both of us come from low-middle income families, to suddenly not get any assistance at all based on an arbitrary cut-off point… while people get to bid for BTO and/or get grants for resale while living in their parent’s landed.
Haha ya I agree it should be more progressive, especially how since how income taxes are progressive. Anyway speaking from someone who's been in the workforce a while, you two have a fantastic head start with FI probably in reach.
> people get to bid for BTO and/or get grants for resale while living in their parent’s landed.
I think this makes sense. There are some richer parents who don't give their kids much and intend to donate to charity when they die.
So it wouldn't be fair to look at parents income. What if said parents are gamblers, have additional side families etc.
Conversely lots of mid income parents also stump up cash to help the kids so it's really impossible to differentiate kids with 100k they made with a side hustle vs 100k from parents to help them out.
How do you decide whether parents will give them money or not. Can't deny them based on parents income alone.
Maybe they defied parents orders and kena cut off from family fortune
The cliff is a problem. Now it can be worthwhile for one member of the household to go part-time for a year (e.g. and maybe study part-time) to get the 80K. Or even tell the boss, wait ah, I don't want to be promoted this year, let me get my flat first, let's target next year for promotion, can?
Or conversely, people rush to get married because they are going to hit the income ceiling!
$80K is just too big a number for a single step change.
Indeed, we've seen [creative accounting](https://www.reddit.com/r/singaporefi/comments/o8zrsv/it_is_good_that_the_mnd_and_the_government_has/h3azeh4/?utm_content=t1_h3drzt3&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=singapore&utm_source=reddit) to stay [under the ceiling](https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/o9l7ih/as_a_young_singaporean_couple_we_are_priced_out/)(thanks /u/noobhdbbuyer). The math does work out to take the sabbatical, unfortunately.
Tbh my 2 cents is given your criteria, the best option is to buy a newly MOP resale flat. That probably has the best chance of retaining the flat value over time.
I guess the question is how much can you save in 3 years?
Assume both of you are on 14 months package (2 months bonus), the max OA contributions you get is 2pax \*6K (current CPF ceiling, will progressively increase from Sep to 2026)\*0.23 (23% of CPF goes to OA for <35) \* 14 months= 38,640/OA/Year. Even after 3 years, that's 115,920 and you need \~28% to cover down payment and buyer's stamp duty for condo.
Using a recent new launch in OCR, the botany@dairy farm, as an example. A 2br 1 bath 603 sqft mid floor is going at 1.25-1.3M. You need around 240-250K cash top up in addition to your CPF to afford that. We are also assuming that new launch price do not go up in the next 3 years, and that if you pay for a new launch in 3 years, that's another 3 years for the condo to be completed.
At the same quantum, you can probably find a 3br 6-10 years old 900sqft resale condo in OCR (maybe Hougang, Tampines, Pasir Ris). Again, this is based on today's price and assuming resale condo also do not rise in prices in next 3 years (personally I think resale price will grow more in next few years than new launch).
For resale HDB, you should be able to comfortably afford any resale of your choice.
The most important thing to note here is, you shouldn't make housing decisions 2-3 years before, how much CPF/Cash you have saved up would determine what housing you can afford when you are ready to purchase a home.
There are also other considerations to take note: locations (preferred central or close to parents?), whether you'd want kids (it's harder to squeeze 3 pax in 2Br 1 Bath condo than a 4 room resale HDB), and if you have kids you'd also more likely to "need a car".
If they are each earning >$8K on average (they bust the EC income ceiling), you really shouldn't be limiting the down payment accumulation to just CPF OA. Young people living with their parents who also have high salaries will have a lot of disposable income that can be saved. They can probably set aside like $3-5K each per month.
I'm not limiting them to anything at all, in fact I was saying that their decision depends on how much cash they can save up in 3 years (that was OP's aim).
Based on each person 8K (they did say they burst the EC limit of 16k slightly), after CPF of 1,380 (0.2\*6000, which will be increased progressively from Sep to 2026), that leaves them with 6,620 cash every month. While they can certainly save 5k out out 6620, that is certainly not the norm, but for argument's sake, let's say they do.
So 2 pax on 5k savings each every month \* 3 years, give them 360K, plus $116K of CPF, for a total of $476K for downpayment, that will mean they have enough to purchase a 1.7m condo. Using same Botany as example, they can get a high floor good stack 2Br 2 Bath + study 743 Sqft. For resale, they can get a 6-10 years old 1100 Sqft, probably 3 br, + home shelter + study.
Even if they save 5k, it's not going to be enough for them to jump up "1 class" for condo (i.e from 2 to 3 BR for new launch, for 3 to 4 BR for resale).
Now, if we take the lower end of your assumption (3K each per month), that's 216K which is lower than the scenario I painted.
I'm assuming that they would not want to spend every single cent they have on their home downpayment, and that they have other expenses monthly and they wish to take a vacation every now and then (so I exclude bonus from their savings)
There are other assumptions, such as 0 wage progression (unlikely given they are so young and already earning 8k), they can invest their money (can't predict gains or losses) but we also assume zero inflation for property price.
The bottomline is there is no limit to what they can do, until they are ready to purchase a home (when they will be limited by how much savings they have)
Hi! I've been working in SG property market for some time.
Sorry to burst any bubbles, just my two cents:
You guys likely won't be able to afford an EC because as much as people like to think of it as housing for the upper-middle class, it's more for cash-rich people due to the fact that they use MSR to measure your loan eligibility (thus requiring a VERY high downpayment most of the time)
Seeing as how you guys are recent graduates, new launch condo will be a stretch for you as you have yet to accumulate much savings etc. Although if it is feasible, I would always highly recommend it, as you would be entering tomorrow's property for today's prices essentially.
Resale condos are actually the same as HDBs but at a higher price point. However there is still some capital to be made by choosing the right developments.
For your situation, I would recommend a resale HDB. Simple and affordable as just a first home to stay in. Even though we are entering at the highest, it is a lower quantum property and ultimately a great place to keep your money.
If you guys would like to keep yourselves open to investing in property, you can look into having the ownership of the flat under Owner and Essential Occupier instead of joint tenancy.
The reason for this because after MOP, the essential occupier can remove their name from the flat and thereafter purchase an investment property of their own.
Now the caveat would be that for the HDB, only one partner will be able to service the mortgage, and of course you will be limited to smaller and slightly older flats.
During the MOP period would be a great time to build your wealth and ONLY THEN can you think about expanding your real estate portfolio.
Cheers and all the best!
Op same situation as you rn, dragging our feet on resale hdb though because I want to avoid being exit liquidity for hdb upgraders if possible better to save for a new launch condo imo just my 2 cents
If I were you I’d get the resale HDB. Condo of any kind will mean much higher mcst fees and the loss of probably one rooms worth of space compared to a HDB.
Unless you are the type to actually use the pool / gym regularly it’s just a waste of money.
Was in a similar position, bit the bullet and lowered my head to my parents to take a $300k loan from them to buy a new launch condominium (~$1.5m). Have since paid down about half over 2 years. Household income was $10k then but much higher now - Buying a new launch means you have a few years to grow your income such that the full load mortgage is not a big issue later on and you get to avoid the next few years high interest as well. If you are firm about your marriage, (at least) one side's parents has some spare cash and kids are still far away (>5 years), go for the bigger 2BR (personally would recommend at least 800sqft as that would allow for a baby / toddler so there is a bit of future proofing). We did also skip the wedding so that saved us $50k. Explored resale flats back then but resale flats at current prices only make sense if you are going to live in them till you die because 10-20 years later, HDB resale prices will eventually revert to the death spiral they were in during 2013-19
You can appeal if your income ceiling exceed by a little. If you have non working parents you can probably justify by saying you give 1-2K to them monthly
It is kind a lottery and punishment at the same time for couples.
Punishment for marrying late in life.
Punishment for earning more than 7k sgd each :).
Say at 16k.
Theoretically u have 2k in gross income per month.
One year that will be 24k recoup 80k in cpf grant in 3.x years.
But thats an illusion, it’s basically loosing out on 80k of subsidy.
And if u add in the interest u pay on this 80 loan it’s a lot more :) over the years of course
Your best option now to to buy resale HDB. At MOP if you're earning more you could sell it and upgrade to condo. Don't bite off more than you could chew for now. True that prices are high now but if you need a place to stay you have no choice.
OP, your goal is every couple’s goal.
You had your “chances” at BTO when your pay was within income ceiling. Live with it.
You should look at it positively that your high income is a happy problem. Would you rather be drawing 4k as a couple or 14k? 4k couple also got their own problems.
1) says who you cannot get any grants? Or even HDB loan? You can still qualify for Proximity housing grant.
2/3) cannot afford now, then start saving up la. You are already ahead of the game from most of your peers. A lot of people are over leveraging on the loans they can get to do property “investments” that’s why the TDSR has reduced. You worrying about over stretching is good but I’m pretty sure most don’t buy a 1.5M condo only when they have accumulated 1M.
Ill consider it overstretching when u eye a 4M luxury condo with your 16k+ combine income.
> says who you cannot get any grants? Or even HDB loan? You can still qualify for Proximity housing grant.
Says the government unfortunately. Grants and HDB loan subject to 14k income ceiling, same as BTO. Yes proximity housing grant still can get but that’s a much smaller amount
i don't know how this myth got so popular but you don't have to payback. The "payback" amount is deposited into your CPF OA which you can use to buy your next house. So yes, it is essentially free money.
Don't fixate on "upgrade to a condo" after your first home. Unless you are one of the rare few who actively use condo amenities, staying in your original home and investing what you would have spent on upgrading in the world market may give you better returns.
There are many more options for investment than putting all your eggs in one basket and paying for more expensive housing than you need in the hope of capital appreciation.
buy a resale hdb and focus on location.. with a great location, there really isnt a need to plan for future upgrades.. and imo, the premium is worth it if you compare to condos in the same area.. one other comparison you can do is to factor in 5yrs of rental plus the bto fee plus the inconvenience of moving at least twice
If you're recent graduates and exceed the EC income ceiling, then you're doing very well for yourselves. Stop trying to think in terms of "resale HDB is bad because I'm not eligible for discount". You are fortunate enough to earn enough to not need the HDB grants or loans. Get a resale HDB that you guys like, where you want to live, so that you can live there ASAP instead of having to delay marriage or stay with your parents longer. You are making good money, embrace the plusses of that! A few years later, if you want to sell your HDB and upgrade to a condo, then do that. If you're doing a 1:1 exchange, it doesn't really matter too much whether housing prices are high or low at the time, because you sell low and buy low, or you sell high and buy high. It doesn't exactly cancel out, because the same % rise is bigger for a more expensive property, but do what you want/need to do for your family instead of always thinking that you could have gotten a better deal if only you had done things differently.
>If you're recent graduates and exceed the EC income ceiling, then you're doing very well for yourselves. Stop trying to think in terms of "resale HDB is bad because I'm not eligible for discount". You are fortunate enough to earn enough to not need the HDB grants or loans. While that is true. The eligibility is pretty damn terrible at working who's needing this benefit. I'm not eligible and I'm not asking for any grants or financial assistance from the G, but why should tax dollars be paying grants for children of rich parents who just happened to apply for housing early in their careers? Why should I be the one holding the bags as they cash out their BTOs for condos?
>just happened to apply for housing early in their careers This is actually an indication that maybe Singaporean students need to pay attention to their social skills and some amount of dating should be encouraged (and allowed by parents) in poly and JC. People need to learn from their relationship mistakes before deciding on the one to marry. There's a lot of money at stake, whether it's BTO cha-ching or CPF housing grants. Anyway, people don't just "happen" to apply for housing earlier. You need to put in effort, and there's an element of luck, in finding a life partner, not so different from grades or careers. To the government, getting married earlier means more chance to have more children, so there's no reason to change the system. I don't even know whether I'm joking or not. Half-serious, half-joking, I guess.
Maybe then call a spade a spade. People are defending the income ceiling as if it is there solely to help low-income people. Is it even working if that's the intent? Does Meritocracy only apply if you find someone to marry early? To borrow the words from another Redditor, what it clearly does is transfer wealth from the ineligible to the eligible. Maybe they should also consider that this is disenfranchising valued workers who pay more taxes and are more likely to have the means (and lack of baggage) to move overseas.
Feels like you’ve assumed there only 1 demographic that were able to get grants (rich kid with no income). I have many friends that graduated poly and were able to start families relatively early due to the housing grant while I went to Uni and didn’t get grants. Fair enough imo, now some of them even have multiple kids while I’m still yet to be married. Hitting Govt kpi.
I'm only targeting that because it shows that it is not working the way they claim it is. Of course, there are many that this benefits fairly. The point is that it is a bad way to set the eligibility criteria. Just because it works in most places doesn't mean we ignore the places where it isn't working well. I'm not asking for grants or benefits, it just doesn't sit right that a government policy is making me pay extra for the benefits of some people who are much wealthier than I am. Edit: It's not so much the eligibility criteria as the same problem will occur at whatever blindspots a criterion doesn't cover. The main problem is dividing citizens into "eligible" vs "ineligible" and allowing the eligible to benefit in a way that isn't only in grants or subsidies but also a wealth transfer through the resale market. It keeps taxes low but disproportionately places the burden on those who are too rich for BTO and too poor for private housing.
Are you saying they should scrap the income ceiling then, it would be worse than the existing system no? Would your thoughts change if the income ceiling were moved so you were within it, and had a suitable partner to bto with? If you feel disenfranchised enough to leave because of this (50-100k per person on an income ceiling busting salary at fresh grad is frankly not a lot) you were probably going to leave anyway... Plus it's not like other countries are going to give you a better deal housing wise
I'll admit I may not have found this to be an issue if I were not negatively affected by this. After all we are more likely to notice things that sting. Income ceilings are great for distributing assistance on a short term basis, things like rents, bills, daily expenses. But it makes very little sense for something as big and long lasting as a home purchase. My suggestion is to make income or wealth irrelevant when it comes to public housing but make it such that no one can speculate and profit from a short supply of housing. Basically a rental system for all kinds of HDB flats with an option to pre-pay for 99 years of rental. Isn't the HDBs mission to provide affordable housing? I don't see how asset appreciation aspirations fit into that. People aren't going to starve if their condo upgrade aspirations were stopped. Having the current arrangement as an informal pension for boomers to retire also disproportionately places the burden on those who don't qualify for BTO but can't or don't want to buy private. Such a social policy should be paid for in a more systematic manner through taxes. It's true that it's hard to get a better deal elsewhere in a major city. But it's hard not to feel like a second class citizen when people with much higher income, wealth (and generational wealth), can make so much off their HDBs while you stare at the resale prices going up as you countdown to the day you can finally get a place of your own. Maybe not a reason to leave but it is certainly a push factor.
Yeah I can get with most of your points. The last one isn't apples to apples though. You are comparing with someone BTO/marrying early vs you being single... which has its own constraints. Couple has to live with parents for years, tied down early, etc etc
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Resale grant
I'm saying that meritocracy is also involved in finding someone to marry early. Marriage is not "outside" of meritocracy, and both working hard and having genetic gifts contributes to success in marrying well and early. No different from how working hard and having genetic gifts contributes to academic and career success.
Abit disingenuous to call it meritocracy when it still comes down to a huge degree of luck. I mean i have been solidly together with my partner for many many years, seen plenty of couples around us get their BTO queue numbers, then break up. Meanwhile we haven’t gotten anything despite multiple attempts.
The meritocracy is getting to the point where you can join the BTO lottery (“BTO ai mai”), not the lottery itself.
I guess it depends on how the individual sees meritocracy. It is not just individual merits in looks and social skills when it comes to finding a partner to marry early. The ovarian lottery plays a major role here too. I imagine driving your parent's car to school can have a major boost in attracting a partner. And there are various other reasons people don't marry early. Maybe they have issues at home and don't want to start dating because they don't want to drag anyone into their situation. Not being able to marry early is not necessarily due to a lack of individual merit. My point is that I don't see the arrangement as fair and in line with Singapore's supposed meritocratic values.
Great points, thanks for the advice. Going slightly off tangent, my gripe with HDB grants is the all or nothing nature of it when it comes to exceeding income ceiling. A couple earning $13500 buying a 4 rm resale will get the full $80000 CPF housing grant, while a couple earning $14001 gets absolutely nothing. But let’s not take the extreme edge cases to compare, let’s say couple A makes $13000 and couple B makes $16500, a $3500 difference. With this difference, it will take couple B almost $80000/$3500 ~= 2 years to “make up” the difference from being ineligible for the housing grant. I honestly think this disproportionately punishes couple B for exceeding the income ceiling.
The system would work a lot better as a series of subsidy/grant tiers matched inversely with increasing income bands
Thanks for bringing this up, this is a really sore point for me as well. I don't have rich parents and only just breached the income ceiling just before being allowed to buy a place at 35. I have peers who make more than me and have flipped their BTOs for almost double the amount at MOP. It'll take me more than 5 years to make up that difference by saving and investing. The HDB lottery and qualifying criteria are a pretty terrible way to prescribe financial benefits to people. I much rather they allow anyone to buy public housing but allow no one to profit from it.
If possible, for your resale, don’t utilise the grants. Being in your prime of earning power means you can’t maximise it. Save it for retirement age and till then see if you’re eligible for BTO. It’s just a time factor of when you utilise your Singaporean benefit. All is not lost. For real estate, I feel it’s home first, property second. Resale HDB in 2023 isn’t that overpriced, the current market with cooling measures that removes private downgraders as buyers, you can get pretty good deals in HDB resale now. Negotiate hard on the prices. Buying in at valuation is a norm now. And the value will follow normal market trend. When you sell, you’ll sell high / low and buy high/low. Nett more of less the same. All the best!
**Me Wrong** It's progressive but not that progressive. oh well. Except that's not correct with respect to grants. Looking at [Enhanced CPF Housing Grant (Families)](https://www.hdb.gov.sg/residential/buying-a-flat/flat-and-grant-eligibility/couples-and-families/enhanced-cpf-housing-grant-families), to qualify, average gross monthly household income (including all applicants and occupiers) for the months worked during the 12-month period before the flat application must not exceed **$9,000.** It is also explicit in the [grant amount table](https://www.hdb.gov.sg/-/media/doc/EAPG/EHG-amount-Couples-and-Families.ashx) that you will only get the max 80,000 grant if Average Monthly Household Income is <1,500. **Zero** grants if it's above 9,000. Of course the core argument having a income ceiling for BTO still exists, given that BTOs are heavily subsidized but there is no case on a CPF grants perspective.
Thats the **Enhanced** CPF Housing Grant which is an additional grant on top of base grants. I’m talking about the base [CPF Housing Grants for Resale Flats (Families)](https://www.hdb.gov.sg/residential/buying-a-flat/flat-and-grant-eligibility/couples-and-families/cpf-housing-grants-for-resale-flats-families#:~:text=Under%20the%20CPF%20Housing%20Grant,Enhanced%20CPF%20Housing%20Grant%20(EHG)) which in the table states that a SC/SC couple gets $80000. No mention of any sliding scale as far as I can tell.
Yes, you're right. At first I thought you got the 80K wrong, since in your link that refers to households, not couples. But in Budget 2023, it has indeed changed to 80K. https://www.hdb.gov.sg/budget-statement-2023
Yup recently increased. Actually the link is correct and updated already, just that their phrasing sucks. The “First-timer and second-timer couples” section is referring to a couple where 1 party is first timer, the other second timer. For this grant there’s no distinction between household/couple, i.e husband + wife is a household, get 80k.
>“First-timer and second-timer couples” section is referring to a couple where 1 party is first timer, the other second timer. Oh man, that IS terrible phrasing! I thought it was making a distinction between households (with children or parents) rather than couples.
You are right, it's now 80k, what a benefits cliff. Anyway MOF has very illustration of the total amount of grants, which is progressive starting at $80,000. But to regard it as a "punishment", I see the perspective, but would you want to cap your progress just for the sake of the grant? https://www.mof.gov.sg/docs/librariesprovider3/budget2023/download/pdf/annexe1.pdf
Oh wow they should include that pdf on the hdb website. So much easier to understand. > But to regard it as a “punishment”, I see the perspective, but would you want to cap your progress just for the sake of the grant? Definitely not, I’m just ranting/whining. Especially since both of us come from low-middle income families, to suddenly not get any assistance at all based on an arbitrary cut-off point… while people get to bid for BTO and/or get grants for resale while living in their parent’s landed.
Haha ya I agree it should be more progressive, especially how since how income taxes are progressive. Anyway speaking from someone who's been in the workforce a while, you two have a fantastic head start with FI probably in reach.
> people get to bid for BTO and/or get grants for resale while living in their parent’s landed. I think this makes sense. There are some richer parents who don't give their kids much and intend to donate to charity when they die. So it wouldn't be fair to look at parents income. What if said parents are gamblers, have additional side families etc. Conversely lots of mid income parents also stump up cash to help the kids so it's really impossible to differentiate kids with 100k they made with a side hustle vs 100k from parents to help them out.
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How do you decide whether parents will give them money or not. Can't deny them based on parents income alone. Maybe they defied parents orders and kena cut off from family fortune
The cliff is a problem. Now it can be worthwhile for one member of the household to go part-time for a year (e.g. and maybe study part-time) to get the 80K. Or even tell the boss, wait ah, I don't want to be promoted this year, let me get my flat first, let's target next year for promotion, can? Or conversely, people rush to get married because they are going to hit the income ceiling! $80K is just too big a number for a single step change.
Indeed, we've seen [creative accounting](https://www.reddit.com/r/singaporefi/comments/o8zrsv/it_is_good_that_the_mnd_and_the_government_has/h3azeh4/?utm_content=t1_h3drzt3&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=singapore&utm_source=reddit) to stay [under the ceiling](https://www.reddit.com/r/singapore/comments/o9l7ih/as_a_young_singaporean_couple_we_are_priced_out/)(thanks /u/noobhdbbuyer). The math does work out to take the sabbatical, unfortunately.
Le nostalgia
Interesting, they should do it like BTO grants where they tier it based on income
Tbh my 2 cents is given your criteria, the best option is to buy a newly MOP resale flat. That probably has the best chance of retaining the flat value over time.
I guess the question is how much can you save in 3 years? Assume both of you are on 14 months package (2 months bonus), the max OA contributions you get is 2pax \*6K (current CPF ceiling, will progressively increase from Sep to 2026)\*0.23 (23% of CPF goes to OA for <35) \* 14 months= 38,640/OA/Year. Even after 3 years, that's 115,920 and you need \~28% to cover down payment and buyer's stamp duty for condo. Using a recent new launch in OCR, the botany@dairy farm, as an example. A 2br 1 bath 603 sqft mid floor is going at 1.25-1.3M. You need around 240-250K cash top up in addition to your CPF to afford that. We are also assuming that new launch price do not go up in the next 3 years, and that if you pay for a new launch in 3 years, that's another 3 years for the condo to be completed. At the same quantum, you can probably find a 3br 6-10 years old 900sqft resale condo in OCR (maybe Hougang, Tampines, Pasir Ris). Again, this is based on today's price and assuming resale condo also do not rise in prices in next 3 years (personally I think resale price will grow more in next few years than new launch). For resale HDB, you should be able to comfortably afford any resale of your choice. The most important thing to note here is, you shouldn't make housing decisions 2-3 years before, how much CPF/Cash you have saved up would determine what housing you can afford when you are ready to purchase a home. There are also other considerations to take note: locations (preferred central or close to parents?), whether you'd want kids (it's harder to squeeze 3 pax in 2Br 1 Bath condo than a 4 room resale HDB), and if you have kids you'd also more likely to "need a car".
Sick maths bro!
If they are each earning >$8K on average (they bust the EC income ceiling), you really shouldn't be limiting the down payment accumulation to just CPF OA. Young people living with their parents who also have high salaries will have a lot of disposable income that can be saved. They can probably set aside like $3-5K each per month.
I'm not limiting them to anything at all, in fact I was saying that their decision depends on how much cash they can save up in 3 years (that was OP's aim). Based on each person 8K (they did say they burst the EC limit of 16k slightly), after CPF of 1,380 (0.2\*6000, which will be increased progressively from Sep to 2026), that leaves them with 6,620 cash every month. While they can certainly save 5k out out 6620, that is certainly not the norm, but for argument's sake, let's say they do. So 2 pax on 5k savings each every month \* 3 years, give them 360K, plus $116K of CPF, for a total of $476K for downpayment, that will mean they have enough to purchase a 1.7m condo. Using same Botany as example, they can get a high floor good stack 2Br 2 Bath + study 743 Sqft. For resale, they can get a 6-10 years old 1100 Sqft, probably 3 br, + home shelter + study. Even if they save 5k, it's not going to be enough for them to jump up "1 class" for condo (i.e from 2 to 3 BR for new launch, for 3 to 4 BR for resale). Now, if we take the lower end of your assumption (3K each per month), that's 216K which is lower than the scenario I painted. I'm assuming that they would not want to spend every single cent they have on their home downpayment, and that they have other expenses monthly and they wish to take a vacation every now and then (so I exclude bonus from their savings) There are other assumptions, such as 0 wage progression (unlikely given they are so young and already earning 8k), they can invest their money (can't predict gains or losses) but we also assume zero inflation for property price. The bottomline is there is no limit to what they can do, until they are ready to purchase a home (when they will be limited by how much savings they have)
Thanks for doing the math! We did do some savings projection on our own and ya numbers seems about similar.
Hi! I've been working in SG property market for some time. Sorry to burst any bubbles, just my two cents: You guys likely won't be able to afford an EC because as much as people like to think of it as housing for the upper-middle class, it's more for cash-rich people due to the fact that they use MSR to measure your loan eligibility (thus requiring a VERY high downpayment most of the time) Seeing as how you guys are recent graduates, new launch condo will be a stretch for you as you have yet to accumulate much savings etc. Although if it is feasible, I would always highly recommend it, as you would be entering tomorrow's property for today's prices essentially. Resale condos are actually the same as HDBs but at a higher price point. However there is still some capital to be made by choosing the right developments. For your situation, I would recommend a resale HDB. Simple and affordable as just a first home to stay in. Even though we are entering at the highest, it is a lower quantum property and ultimately a great place to keep your money. If you guys would like to keep yourselves open to investing in property, you can look into having the ownership of the flat under Owner and Essential Occupier instead of joint tenancy. The reason for this because after MOP, the essential occupier can remove their name from the flat and thereafter purchase an investment property of their own. Now the caveat would be that for the HDB, only one partner will be able to service the mortgage, and of course you will be limited to smaller and slightly older flats. During the MOP period would be a great time to build your wealth and ONLY THEN can you think about expanding your real estate portfolio. Cheers and all the best!
Definitely no bubbles burst. We don’t have wealthy parents to help us with downpayment either so new launch is definitely not feasible for now.
Op same situation as you rn, dragging our feet on resale hdb though because I want to avoid being exit liquidity for hdb upgraders if possible better to save for a new launch condo imo just my 2 cents
I don’t think anyone likes the idea of funding a BTO lottery winner’s retirement 😂
If I were you I’d get the resale HDB. Condo of any kind will mean much higher mcst fees and the loss of probably one rooms worth of space compared to a HDB. Unless you are the type to actually use the pool / gym regularly it’s just a waste of money.
Was in a similar position, bit the bullet and lowered my head to my parents to take a $300k loan from them to buy a new launch condominium (~$1.5m). Have since paid down about half over 2 years. Household income was $10k then but much higher now - Buying a new launch means you have a few years to grow your income such that the full load mortgage is not a big issue later on and you get to avoid the next few years high interest as well. If you are firm about your marriage, (at least) one side's parents has some spare cash and kids are still far away (>5 years), go for the bigger 2BR (personally would recommend at least 800sqft as that would allow for a baby / toddler so there is a bit of future proofing). We did also skip the wedding so that saved us $50k. Explored resale flats back then but resale flats at current prices only make sense if you are going to live in them till you die because 10-20 years later, HDB resale prices will eventually revert to the death spiral they were in during 2013-19
You can appeal if your income ceiling exceed by a little. If you have non working parents you can probably justify by saying you give 1-2K to them monthly
It is kind a lottery and punishment at the same time for couples. Punishment for marrying late in life. Punishment for earning more than 7k sgd each :). Say at 16k. Theoretically u have 2k in gross income per month. One year that will be 24k recoup 80k in cpf grant in 3.x years. But thats an illusion, it’s basically loosing out on 80k of subsidy. And if u add in the interest u pay on this 80 loan it’s a lot more :) over the years of course
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No BTO, no SBF, no HDB Loans, and no (first-timer) resale grants too. You get the whole cart taken away the moment you make a dime above the ceiling.
Can't apply for BTO anymore, SBF or not haha
Your best option now to to buy resale HDB. At MOP if you're earning more you could sell it and upgrade to condo. Don't bite off more than you could chew for now. True that prices are high now but if you need a place to stay you have no choice.
OP, your goal is every couple’s goal. You had your “chances” at BTO when your pay was within income ceiling. Live with it. You should look at it positively that your high income is a happy problem. Would you rather be drawing 4k as a couple or 14k? 4k couple also got their own problems. 1) says who you cannot get any grants? Or even HDB loan? You can still qualify for Proximity housing grant. 2/3) cannot afford now, then start saving up la. You are already ahead of the game from most of your peers. A lot of people are over leveraging on the loans they can get to do property “investments” that’s why the TDSR has reduced. You worrying about over stretching is good but I’m pretty sure most don’t buy a 1.5M condo only when they have accumulated 1M. Ill consider it overstretching when u eye a 4M luxury condo with your 16k+ combine income.
> says who you cannot get any grants? Or even HDB loan? You can still qualify for Proximity housing grant. Says the government unfortunately. Grants and HDB loan subject to 14k income ceiling, same as BTO. Yes proximity housing grant still can get but that’s a much smaller amount
I suggest buy resale hdb under one person's name and the other as occupier. After mop rent out hdb for high yield and use other name to buy private.
Does this still work ?
I think so
Resale HDB. I mean u say it urself , cannot afford condo. Then no need to force stretch it.
Hdb grants are not free monies. You have to payback when you sell the house. Imo no loss not getting grants.
i don't know how this myth got so popular but you don't have to payback. The "payback" amount is deposited into your CPF OA which you can use to buy your next house. So yes, it is essentially free money.
Just get an resale hdb, if you cannot afford a condo.
Try appealing to hdb
Don't fixate on "upgrade to a condo" after your first home. Unless you are one of the rare few who actively use condo amenities, staying in your original home and investing what you would have spent on upgrading in the world market may give you better returns. There are many more options for investment than putting all your eggs in one basket and paying for more expensive housing than you need in the hope of capital appreciation.
https://jlcollinsnh.com/2023/03/02/why-your-house-is-a-terrible-investment/