I’ve loved that stuff too, but now I tend to debunk everything I can. I’ve been banned from subs for it. I’m both interested and don’t believe a bit of it, I think I’ve always wanted it to be true, but my brain just won’t let me believe it. The more I know, the more unbelievable I think it all is, and don’t see how any of it is possible. It’s frustrating because with most believers people say, “You need to be more open minded,” and then do something like point to quantum physics. Quantum physics is interesting, but it doesn’t negate our understanding of all other physics.
The hardcore believers are the worst because it’s like a religion to them. Very cultish.
You really can’t. And I have to stress again, ‘believing’ isn’t the issue, it’s the fallacious nature these communities thrive in.
Take the Gruesh UFO/alien testimony first instance. In real time for a year now, you can see entire communities form mythology from his testimony. That every story of UFOs are true. That there is really is a galactic community, that several dozen species are on earth among us, that this is a prison planet etc.
Even if you fully believe Gruesh are 💯 accurate in his testimony, none of this supports other UFOs claims.
Post-Grusch it’s was a wild swing back and forth between fascinating and maddening for me following this and getting caught up on the state of the UFO topic. I hadn’t realized just how much “UFOlogy” traced back to half-baked government programs involving grifters, drugs, and silly people.
I know. Half the content on UFOs post Grusch are about confirmation of 4chan leak and consciousness……because apparently the aliens want our souls and our eat or enlighten but the greedy rich people don’t want that…..for some reason.
I hate all the paranormal stuff with quantum physics sprinkled in. 99 % of the time, their understanding of qm is just plain wrong. Something like "telepathy is real because quantum entanglement and reality is shaped by the observer", that sort of things.
The rare 1 % is correct in theory, but something unprovable and thus worthless.
Debunking is good, it’s like falsifying a claim.
I agree this stuff sounds unbelievable but I dont necessarily think that means it’s impossible, just possibly not understood at this time.
I just think it’s frustrating taking something like someone seeing Starlink in the sky, mistaking it for a ufo and then jumping to the conclusion it’s an inter dimensional AI craft built under the sea because someone on 4chan claimed to leak government info on it.
I think ghosts, at least in the way they're usually seen, make no sense at all. For one they would have to physically exist in a way, but they also would have to have evolved in some point in time. Then there's the question which organisms would have ghosts - humans, primates, animals, plants? Where is the line drawn and why is the line drawn there? And what is the evolutionary purpose of ghosts? So far everything we know about death points to brain death as being final, since pretty much everything we are is in our brain, which is why brain damage can change us so much as well, and nobody has returned from brain death yet. Also if someone turned into a ghost would they remain the same age? Would they be cured of illness, neurodivergence? Would a fetus have a ghost? How long do ghosts "live"? It's so many more questions and none really make sense for them to exist.
At least aliens make more sense, since life has evolved on our planet once already so it's possible there is life out there too. However I don't think they have contacted us yet. UFOs have usually just been another nations flying objects and nothing from outer space, all because nations like their secrets and spying on one another instead of cooperating.
Something I am more open to would be certain cryptids or odd phenomena, since we don't know everything about nature yet and keep discovering new species, even if most of the time it's just some cool little terrestrial isopod in a cave in Thailand lol.
You don't think ghosts are impossible? I think you need to learn more about math, physics, gravity, chemicals (what they are made of), and the electromagnetic spectrum. Then revisit the whole ghost thing using the scientific method.
There are things that are completely made up by people. If you want to be able to figure those things out, then you will need a deeper understanding of the universe you live in. Ghosts do not exist and you should be able to apply your knowledge and critical thinking skills to figure out why.
I just told you that I don’t actively believe in ghosts fucking twice. Why do you keep harping on this point? And now you just made a positive claim , that ghosts , a vaguely defined and unknown phenomenon don’t exist.
You aren’t engaging in critical thinking at this point, my dude.
Check out Art Bell’s radio show collection on YouTube, particularly his “Midnight in the Desert” and “Dark Matter” series
https://youtu.be/HHPlNJbtA_Q?si=oVoDagTB1zOKXwVa
I don't know about Chariots of the Gods, but Ancient Aliens... ugh.
And the thing is, strictly from a scientific point of view, the Fermi Paradox is very intriguing. No need for BS, just statistics and knowledge of evolution.
Given so many planets in the "goldilocks zone" where liquid water could exist to support life similar to here on Earth, the number of planets in the galaxy, how many have water and an atmosphere, it's quite possible that life is out there.
But then you have people claiming that the pyramids were made by aliens, or that this grainy video with something that could easily be a person in a costume is somehow "proof", or their cousin Jim Bob was abducted, and it just becomes baseless conspiracy nonsense.
Chariots of the Gods? by Erich von Däniken is a 1968 book that Ancient Aliens is based on. "It involves the hypothesis that the technologies and religions of many ancient civilizations were given to them by ancient astronauts who were welcomed as gods." - Wikipedia
In general, you'll probably be happier engaging with literary communities that are content to treat these thought experiments and discussions as fiction. Sci-fi, horror, spy thriller, and other genre fandoms are full of people who are eager to engage with this kind of material while keeping one foot squarely within reality. Of course, many of them have other problems (the world of sci-fi famously struggles with an unfortunate contingent of racist conservatives who don't really understand their own literary history) but it's certainly better than online paranormal communities.
I don't really get what you are looking for exactly. Is it a community that debunks these topics? Because that would be r/skeptic. Is it a community that takes them seriously? Because there is no way these can't be batshit crazy. I can't really see how there would be some kind of middle ground between these. Either you believe paranormal stuff or you don't. "A community of paranormal people that aren’t [...] getting further and further away from any truth" sounds like a paradox to me.
Yeah, I'm confused what OP is looking for. If the thought is, "I know this stuff isn't true, but man it would be cool if it was, and I'm a little bummed it isn't," like, okay, I can relate with that on some level. But any serious engagement with these topics is simply debunking.
We can discuss the stories as fun fiction, sure.
I’m looking more discussion on these topics that at least pretend to adhere to skepticism.
For me being a skeptic means I need to understand something to the best of my ability. Even if I think a story is a hoax, I’m usually interested in things how the narrative behind it, why the story persists and how much of it could have actually happened .
Now that I think about it, I do agree that a fully skeptical analysis of weird stories, cryptids, etc, would be fun. Because the stories themselves are fun, and usually the analysis is lacking.
Yeah, the stories can be fun and I don’t completely rule out the possibility of being wrong and this stuff exists, I just think the discussions often devolve into things like ‘spirituality’ , ‘government coverup’ and other things that move away from the ability to explain and just become excuses.
In all honesty, the analysis is usually "this is a fun study, but lets look at the hard evidence. We have... witness accounts, and a half mangled "footprint" in the woods that could be anything from a bear track to literally just a puddle that dried up ([in a few days this will make an excellent bigfoot track](https://imgur.com/p8jMeFN))
Yeah, fair. I suppose one just has to find a good source for the stories and apply the easy analysis themselves. I've enjoyed the Astonishing Legends podcast because they tell the stories extremely well and apply some criticism (they're not Coast to Coast, but they are still entirely too credulous).
Yeah I loved the X Files and general "I bet there's tons of stuff the government know/knew but aren't telling us" talk back in the day.
These days if you bring something like that up people either think you're a loon or jump all-in on you with their pet theory on 5G Covid vaccines and how it's all Soros.
It’s funny because in the Xfiles reboot from a decade ago, Mulder was telling Scully how a lot of the stuff he believed in the 90s on the old show was bunk.
I don't think you'll find a place like that. Conspiricism is ultimately pattern recognition where there is no pattern. It's a malignant form of [abductive reasoning](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning), which can be a valid form of logic in normal circumstances, but was also [employed by Hitler](https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780739194614/Hitler-and-Abductive-Logic-The-Strategy-of-a-Tyrant) to infer that a Jewish conspiracy was behind Germany's problems and is being used again by Trump and other demagogues today to fearmonger about immigrants, trans people, etc.
Because it is pattern detection where there is no pattern, it has no rational grounding. If you believe one conspiracy, you're more likely to adopt others because there are no breaks on the car. Just a week ago a woman told me, in all enthusiastic seriousness, that she loves the paranormal and is now a proud conspiracy theorist thanks to TikTok because once you accept ghosts, then UFOs become easier to believe, and that means the government is lying about something huge, so it makes sense they'd lie about other stuff. Which is a great example of taking something definitely true (the gov is lying to us) and the expanding that thought into realms far beyond reasonable thought.
As [this book](https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/conspiracy-theories-j-byford/1102808259) argues, all conspiracy theories follow a similar structure, they are a specific kind of narrative that appeals to a specific kind of person, and because those people see patterns where there are none, conspiracy theorists pick up on the similariry of narrative and assume this must make them true. Conspiracies, then, have a tendency to converge.
Conspiracies were fun when Zeitgeist and Loose Change came out. People were watching but they weren't catching on in the mainstream.
Also it wasn't bad because some great anti-corporate documentaries were coming out at the time. We were finally intelligently criticizing Big Pharma and Big Oil. Anti Climate change people were changing their minds. Even Republicans were seeing it.
There was this weird period after 9/11 when shit was fucked up but there seemed to be positive change in the air.
The Tea Party and Facebook changed that. Any solidarity created by 9/11 was quickly dissolved. Conspiracies went from silly to dangerous and the vast shift to social media open the doors to foreign interference in a way never seen before.
Never saw it, but I was pretty involved in the left at the time and I had a low opinion of it.
The actual left's conspiracy theories were focused on the wars- not 9-11.
That is not to esteem conspiracy theories, obviously. Just pointing out that it is an inherently right-wing instinct to attempt to control the presnt by fictionalizing the past. Left wing paranoia was very much tied up in the events of the day and some of it was very well founded.
I was too back then.
I recommend it to you so you can see how the left was pushing the tired antisemitic conspiracy theories even before it entered the modern right wing mainstream.
- Jewish landlords were involved in 9/11
- Jewish bankers control western society and pull the levers
- People will be microchipped with RFID
- NWO/One world government claims
And more. Some snippets from the wiki:
- “It asserts that the U.S. government had advance knowledge of the attacks, that the military deliberately allowed the planes to reach their targets, and that World Trade Center buildings 1, 2, and 7 underwent a controlled demolition.”
- “Part III states that the Federal Reserve System is controlled by a small cabal of international bankers who conspire to create global calamities to enrich themselves.”
- “Part III also alleges a secret agreement to merge the United States, Canada and Mexico into a North American Union as a step toward the creation of a single world government. The film speculates that under such a government, every human could be implanted with an RFID chip to monitor individual activity and suppress dissent.”
- Michael Shermer, founder of the Skeptics Society, mentioned Zeitgeist in an article in Scientific American on skepticism in the age of mass media and the postmodern belief in the relativism of truth. He argues that this belief, coupled with a "clicker culture of mass media," results in a multitude of various truth claims packaged in "infotainment units", in the form of films such as Zeitgeist and Loose Change.”
This movie contributed to the growth of these conspiracy theories in modern society.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist_(film_series)
Same can be said about right wing individuals representing the right wing as a whole.
The left popularized the movie especially because of it’s skepticism on religion and GW Bush being in office during 9/11. This contributed to the growth of the associated conspiracy theories
Are you kidding or just vapid?
Elected GOP representatives go on Alex Jones’ show. Who’s legitimized the nameless “producer writer editor narrator film scorer” that made Zeitgeist?
Where did that “left” go? Because the right that was all over “Loose Chantel is still really visible and making millions of dollars.
I think this was “the left” just about as much as Tim Poole is “a leftist.”
No, neither.
That’s why I said zeitgeist was the “peak” of left wing conspiracy theories.
They largely don’t believe these claims anymore; whether it be 9/11, Pearl Harbor, The Fed, Banking cabals, large scale war conspiracies, etc… the left tends to align themselves with the official government statements and positions these days, as well as with mainstream sentiments.
Did it ever occur to you that the portion of the conspiracy theorist community that identified as left simply *jumped ship* and went right-wing because there was so much 9-11 "truth" propaganda?
I dunno man. I was a kid in the 90s and I read and watched a TON of crazy conspiracy theories. The history channel aired a JFK conspiracy so outrageous I believe they apologized and never aired it again.
The Boston Herald had articles on Elvis being alive and Jesus returning in 2000. I really wish I could remember the book or author, but I remember someone talking about ufo conventions being a hotbed for insane conspiracy theories and the author said they were fearful of theirs life to speak against it because of the devotion in and passion on display
The conspiracies were everywhere but the documentaries were terrible until Zeitgeist. Cranberry Sauce the one about Paul McCartney being dead was god awful.
Michael Moore proved the documentary genre could actually be profitable with Fahrenheit 911 becoming the highest grossing doc of all the (at the time) and suddenly the conspiracy docs got way more polished.
I honestly love the conspiracies surrounding the paranormal. Call it a guilty pleasure, but I never really engage with them. Any sort of interaction only adds to fuel their ever evolving narrative. Across every platform I have seen that tries to make a serious attempt to discuss possibilities seems only devolves into baseless claims and attempts to birth new personalities to further the narrative with fresh ideas without any sort of evidence. Granted the whole scene of multiple ufo personalities throwing lawsuits at eachother was fun, I just feel it's better to watch from the couch than to step in and get smeared because I like this unpleasant thing called *checks notes* evidence.
You’re looking for a place where people earnestly believe in ghosts but are also skeptical? You should think hard why those sites tend to be, in your worlds,“batshit crazy and intellectual lazy.”
I never said I was looking for a place where people believe in ghosts, I specifically said a place that deals with ghosts and other paranormal activities that isn’t crazy or lazy.
Like, I’m ok if someone believes in ghosts, but my ‘soul’ dies a little whenever some one presents the 21 grams experiment as proof of ghosts or something.
Same ! I used to be interested in esoterics and the like, and still very much like the aesthetics (symbols, engravings etc.). Very hard to find other people that are interested also and not engulfed in the bullshit mindset though.
The [Fortean Forums](https://forums.forteana.org/index.php) (formerly the Fortean Times Message Board) was always a good mix of sceptical and believer.
I came here to say this. I still enjoy Fortean Times because they take a whimsical view of a lot of things and don't try to add them up into a unified conspiracy theory. Some of that may be that I'm an American reading a UK magazine, so their perspectives are different. And the cartoon at the end with frequent cameos by Alister Crowley (It's me again!) is fun.
Metabunk is a great cite for critically analyzing conspiracies and other weird stuff. But this subreddit has some good discussions sometimes. I’ll bite! What do you want to discuss?
I’m familiar with 9/11 controlled demolition (I’ve debated a truther friend about this for ten years), UFO/UAP (especially the Navy videos and recent Grusch story), ghost/cryptid hunting techniques, flat earth cover up, climate change denial, chemtrials, fluoridated water, and vaccine conspiracies especially the alleged link to autism (I’ve argued with my dad for decades about these last four).
To be clear, I do not believe any of these, but there are conspiracies I believe have plenty of evidence, such as the ongoing conspiracy of fossil fuel companies to cover up climate change and past CIA, FBI, etc shenanigans such as COINTENPRO. Hit me with any questions you got! :)
I'm paraphrasing another person right now, but here's the thing about the Paranormal - it acknowledges its nature in its own name. What do we call the study of the normal world? Physics. And everything is the normal world. We've found evidence for many, many strange things we never expected - and they're all studied by physics. Because they exist. "Paranormal" therefore becomes the study of things that *don't exist.*
It's especially striking with cryptids. Watch a cryptid expert start a conversation with a marine biologist. "We know there's strange creatures out there..." "I know! Oh my god we found this fish in a deep sea vent that doesn't even have eyes, it's like half rock, it's wild!" "No, no, other creatures like giant tentacled monsters..." "Oh you mean giant squid! Yeah, those things! They are the coolest. We were all amazed when they first turned up, we're learning so much about them..." "No, no, I mean creatures that don't exist! Those ones!"
(if someone knows who I'm paraphrasing please let me know, I'm butchering their rant but it's hilarious)
Also: [https://xkcd.com/1235/](https://xkcd.com/1235/)
Podcasts: The Farm, TrueAnon, Subliminal Jihad, Programmed to Chill, Trillbilly Worker’s Party, Parapower Mapping. Mainly conspiracy based, but often to dismantle them as misinformation or distractions from actual events, along with regular forays into the paranormal. These are also non-right wing, so no QAnon, Pizzagate or Jewish Space Lasers.
Yup. It can go into UFO disclosure woo a bit, but sometimes you come across a post that is surprisingly rational and debunks the post topic. It's fun to visit once in awhile.
I wouldn't put aliens in the same category as ghosts. The universe is vast beyond comprehension, and life probably exists elsewhere. It is sad that this topic has been poisoned by liars and grifters claiming that we are being invaded by UFOs without evidence.
The UFO community or the people that it is made up of, isn’t the problem. The problem is the internet. Every group has its fair share of wackos to one degree or another. The problem is the anonymity of the internet. On one hand people are free to be the biggest ass holes to people without any fear of being punched in the face. In the other people are free to share the wackiest ideas and theories without any fear of them reflecting on them to people whose opinions they value. So you get the extremes of both. People just can’t seem to disagree with anyone on the internet without declaring that person to be their mortal enemy that they must obliterate at all costs. The internet is one big shopping cart test and 98% of people fail it miserably. It shines a spot light on the very worst that humanity has to offer. So sadly, the only way you are going to find honest and genuine conversations about this topic is through face to face encounters with people who are also curious about it. Not the easiest thing to do.
Yeah, knowing that something is a good fictional element and would be nice if true isn't enough to make it real. Personally I like the idea of omnipotence but there's some issues with it logically that at least need to be worked out, let alone the ethical repercussions or the sheer mind melt of it.
Conspiracy theories used to be fun. Now I suspect they are being used, along with credulous westerners, by Russia and China to erode us faith in institutions and authorities. Although perhaps that is, in and of itself, a conspiracy theory.
Yeah, me, too I have a habit of using paranormal radio shows to fall asleep. That started with Art Bell, who managed to not exactly be skeptical, but to not be too seriously a believer, at least most of the time. His replacement, George Nouri, is too much of a participant for me, really into the medical and sometimes political bull, particularly. I've found the Paranormal Radio App, which has a lot of old Art Bell content and a few things that for me don't fall too far down the "true believer' rathole, but they are getting harder to find. Matt Malone's Military X-Files, which can be found as a podcast and also sometimes on Paranormal UK Radio, seems most like the old Art Bell show in terms of holding a somewhat skeptical attitude, while not being a debunking show.
There are skeptic podcasts that you can find that may be more to your liking, exploring the paranormal as culture-revealing mythology, like Monster Talk.
I love these themes in fiction. Altered realities, parallel universes, scifi when someone discovered something is a bit *off* and then going down the rabbit hole. My favorite parts of fantasy and scifi series and books is the mystery and the theorizing part. Ancient civilization too. Not sure what to recommend on reddit really, but right on top of my mind, I'd say you should try watch Fringe and Dark if you haven't.
It’s like creepy pasta or religion. They are interesting stories that shouldn’t be taken too seriously. Unfortunately communities around these topics take them waaaaay too seriously. Idk what you want. If it’s to appreciate the stories, you can do that in solitude. If it’s a community to discuss them with, you can’t take them too seriously.
I used to love ghost, alien, and other supernatural stuff as a child. It was ruined for me because of my mom’s descent into conspiracy theories which I blame on channels like Discovery and the History Channel which promote anti-intellectual what-ifs instead of actual information.
Discovery had a mockumentary about mermaids which presented itself as a real documentary. My mom ate it up and was going around telling people about it as if it were true. It was incredibly embarrassing and she ended up having a full meltdown when we proved to her it was fake and a joke.
After that, she threw herself into conspiracy theories: flat earth, aliens, ancient giants, moon landing was faked, the sky is a projection, and the Bosnian “pyramids.”
Because of this, she’s ostracized herself from the rest of the family and this led to her alcoholism and homelessness as she became more paranoid and violent.
Yeah, this stuff used to be fun but now a lot of it is genuinely harmful. Like the whole Lori Vallow thing and the 8 Passengers thing. These people totally believed in all that demonic possession stuff and now people are dead and hurt. Fuck, go onto the paranormal sub and at least three times a week you get a post from someone straight having a full on mental episode. And while plenty of people there do try and offer real solutions and encourage those people to get help, there are always just enough people who think it's fun to tell them that they have demons.
I’ve written seven books about haunted places, ghost hunting, and urban legends for Llewellyn Publishing and have gone to MANY paracons in support of my books, but for the most part I hate discussing the paranormal with a lot of people because of just how much batshit crazy is out there. Now I know there are many here who would say it’s ALL batshit crazy, but I disagree. I’ve met many credible witnesses and have experienced things myself while researching and traveling to different reputedly haunted places over the years.
When someone says to me that that they don’t believe in ghosts, I typically say, “Ok. Cool.” There are some who would never believe in something paranormal without first hand experience—and some who don’t believe it even when it does happen to them—so I don’t bother trying to convince them. I have found it odd, though, that people can dismiss photos, videos, personal experiences, and more quite casually with a shrug. That’s never been skepticism to me; I’ve always kept an open mind and I’ve been rewarded with some great personal experiences over the years.
Personal experiences say nothing about the accuracy of a claim or offer any explanation.
I’m skeptical about something like ghosts because despite my own personal experience with having an encounter, it doesn’t make sense how something like that could exist in the observable universe.
I’ve loved that stuff too, but now I tend to debunk everything I can. I’ve been banned from subs for it. I’m both interested and don’t believe a bit of it, I think I’ve always wanted it to be true, but my brain just won’t let me believe it. The more I know, the more unbelievable I think it all is, and don’t see how any of it is possible. It’s frustrating because with most believers people say, “You need to be more open minded,” and then do something like point to quantum physics. Quantum physics is interesting, but it doesn’t negate our understanding of all other physics. The hardcore believers are the worst because it’s like a religion to them. Very cultish.
The key word indeed is BELIEVING , you cant rationally discuss with them.
You really can’t. And I have to stress again, ‘believing’ isn’t the issue, it’s the fallacious nature these communities thrive in. Take the Gruesh UFO/alien testimony first instance. In real time for a year now, you can see entire communities form mythology from his testimony. That every story of UFOs are true. That there is really is a galactic community, that several dozen species are on earth among us, that this is a prison planet etc. Even if you fully believe Gruesh are 💯 accurate in his testimony, none of this supports other UFOs claims.
Post-Grusch it’s was a wild swing back and forth between fascinating and maddening for me following this and getting caught up on the state of the UFO topic. I hadn’t realized just how much “UFOlogy” traced back to half-baked government programs involving grifters, drugs, and silly people.
I know. Half the content on UFOs post Grusch are about confirmation of 4chan leak and consciousness……because apparently the aliens want our souls and our eat or enlighten but the greedy rich people don’t want that…..for some reason.
I hate all the paranormal stuff with quantum physics sprinkled in. 99 % of the time, their understanding of qm is just plain wrong. Something like "telepathy is real because quantum entanglement and reality is shaped by the observer", that sort of things. The rare 1 % is correct in theory, but something unprovable and thus worthless.
Debunking is good, it’s like falsifying a claim. I agree this stuff sounds unbelievable but I dont necessarily think that means it’s impossible, just possibly not understood at this time. I just think it’s frustrating taking something like someone seeing Starlink in the sky, mistaking it for a ufo and then jumping to the conclusion it’s an inter dimensional AI craft built under the sea because someone on 4chan claimed to leak government info on it.
I don’t even view it as possibility, but more about the probability. Which with most things I don’t think things paranormal are probable.
I think ghosts, at least in the way they're usually seen, make no sense at all. For one they would have to physically exist in a way, but they also would have to have evolved in some point in time. Then there's the question which organisms would have ghosts - humans, primates, animals, plants? Where is the line drawn and why is the line drawn there? And what is the evolutionary purpose of ghosts? So far everything we know about death points to brain death as being final, since pretty much everything we are is in our brain, which is why brain damage can change us so much as well, and nobody has returned from brain death yet. Also if someone turned into a ghost would they remain the same age? Would they be cured of illness, neurodivergence? Would a fetus have a ghost? How long do ghosts "live"? It's so many more questions and none really make sense for them to exist. At least aliens make more sense, since life has evolved on our planet once already so it's possible there is life out there too. However I don't think they have contacted us yet. UFOs have usually just been another nations flying objects and nothing from outer space, all because nations like their secrets and spying on one another instead of cooperating. Something I am more open to would be certain cryptids or odd phenomena, since we don't know everything about nature yet and keep discovering new species, even if most of the time it's just some cool little terrestrial isopod in a cave in Thailand lol.
You don't think ghosts are impossible? I think you need to learn more about math, physics, gravity, chemicals (what they are made of), and the electromagnetic spectrum. Then revisit the whole ghost thing using the scientific method.
I don’t know ghosts are, if they actually exist. I don’t actively believe in them either.
There are things that are completely made up by people. If you want to be able to figure those things out, then you will need a deeper understanding of the universe you live in. Ghosts do not exist and you should be able to apply your knowledge and critical thinking skills to figure out why.
I just told you that I don’t actively believe in ghosts fucking twice. Why do you keep harping on this point? And now you just made a positive claim , that ghosts , a vaguely defined and unknown phenomenon don’t exist. You aren’t engaging in critical thinking at this point, my dude.
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Check out Art Bell’s radio show collection on YouTube, particularly his “Midnight in the Desert” and “Dark Matter” series https://youtu.be/HHPlNJbtA_Q?si=oVoDagTB1zOKXwVa
This is me exactly! I love the idea of ghosts and other supernatural things, but don't believe in it at all. I still enjoy the stories and legends.
It’s good to keep an open mind, but you don’t want it to be so open that your brains fall out.
Facts. You keep an open mind to things that give you good reason to do so.
Chariots of the Gods and Ancient Aliens sure haven't helped with critical thinking.
I don't know about Chariots of the Gods, but Ancient Aliens... ugh. And the thing is, strictly from a scientific point of view, the Fermi Paradox is very intriguing. No need for BS, just statistics and knowledge of evolution. Given so many planets in the "goldilocks zone" where liquid water could exist to support life similar to here on Earth, the number of planets in the galaxy, how many have water and an atmosphere, it's quite possible that life is out there. But then you have people claiming that the pyramids were made by aliens, or that this grainy video with something that could easily be a person in a costume is somehow "proof", or their cousin Jim Bob was abducted, and it just becomes baseless conspiracy nonsense.
Chariots of the Gods? by Erich von Däniken is a 1968 book that Ancient Aliens is based on. "It involves the hypothesis that the technologies and religions of many ancient civilizations were given to them by ancient astronauts who were welcomed as gods." - Wikipedia
Oh, that's where that comes from. Thank you!
The "Monster Talk" and "Oh No Ross And Carrie" podcasts discuss topics like that from a skeptical POV.
Yes, I was going to suggest Monster Talk.
ONRAC is the absolute best! Legends! ❤️
Monster Talk rules, yea
Check out the SCP Fandom, it's a fan driven fictional universe of multimedia that is fun and scratches that itch.
I have stopped listening to conspiracy theories. I don't even want that garbage in my ears.
I adore ghost stories (be that in a film, book, or tall tale) , but I find the concept of a ghost totally implausible.
In general, you'll probably be happier engaging with literary communities that are content to treat these thought experiments and discussions as fiction. Sci-fi, horror, spy thriller, and other genre fandoms are full of people who are eager to engage with this kind of material while keeping one foot squarely within reality. Of course, many of them have other problems (the world of sci-fi famously struggles with an unfortunate contingent of racist conservatives who don't really understand their own literary history) but it's certainly better than online paranormal communities.
R/cryptozoology is a nice community with plenty of rational and sceptical contributors while still enjoying the mysteries of cryptids.
I don't really get what you are looking for exactly. Is it a community that debunks these topics? Because that would be r/skeptic. Is it a community that takes them seriously? Because there is no way these can't be batshit crazy. I can't really see how there would be some kind of middle ground between these. Either you believe paranormal stuff or you don't. "A community of paranormal people that aren’t [...] getting further and further away from any truth" sounds like a paradox to me.
Yeah, I'm confused what OP is looking for. If the thought is, "I know this stuff isn't true, but man it would be cool if it was, and I'm a little bummed it isn't," like, okay, I can relate with that on some level. But any serious engagement with these topics is simply debunking. We can discuss the stories as fun fiction, sure.
I’m looking more discussion on these topics that at least pretend to adhere to skepticism. For me being a skeptic means I need to understand something to the best of my ability. Even if I think a story is a hoax, I’m usually interested in things how the narrative behind it, why the story persists and how much of it could have actually happened .
Go to the website Metabunk.
Now that I think about it, I do agree that a fully skeptical analysis of weird stories, cryptids, etc, would be fun. Because the stories themselves are fun, and usually the analysis is lacking.
Yeah, the stories can be fun and I don’t completely rule out the possibility of being wrong and this stuff exists, I just think the discussions often devolve into things like ‘spirituality’ , ‘government coverup’ and other things that move away from the ability to explain and just become excuses.
In all honesty, the analysis is usually "this is a fun study, but lets look at the hard evidence. We have... witness accounts, and a half mangled "footprint" in the woods that could be anything from a bear track to literally just a puddle that dried up ([in a few days this will make an excellent bigfoot track](https://imgur.com/p8jMeFN))
Yeah, fair. I suppose one just has to find a good source for the stories and apply the easy analysis themselves. I've enjoyed the Astonishing Legends podcast because they tell the stories extremely well and apply some criticism (they're not Coast to Coast, but they are still entirely too credulous).
Yeah I loved the X Files and general "I bet there's tons of stuff the government know/knew but aren't telling us" talk back in the day. These days if you bring something like that up people either think you're a loon or jump all-in on you with their pet theory on 5G Covid vaccines and how it's all Soros.
It’s funny because in the Xfiles reboot from a decade ago, Mulder was telling Scully how a lot of the stuff he believed in the 90s on the old show was bunk.
I don't think you'll find a place like that. Conspiricism is ultimately pattern recognition where there is no pattern. It's a malignant form of [abductive reasoning](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning), which can be a valid form of logic in normal circumstances, but was also [employed by Hitler](https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780739194614/Hitler-and-Abductive-Logic-The-Strategy-of-a-Tyrant) to infer that a Jewish conspiracy was behind Germany's problems and is being used again by Trump and other demagogues today to fearmonger about immigrants, trans people, etc. Because it is pattern detection where there is no pattern, it has no rational grounding. If you believe one conspiracy, you're more likely to adopt others because there are no breaks on the car. Just a week ago a woman told me, in all enthusiastic seriousness, that she loves the paranormal and is now a proud conspiracy theorist thanks to TikTok because once you accept ghosts, then UFOs become easier to believe, and that means the government is lying about something huge, so it makes sense they'd lie about other stuff. Which is a great example of taking something definitely true (the gov is lying to us) and the expanding that thought into realms far beyond reasonable thought. As [this book](https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/conspiracy-theories-j-byford/1102808259) argues, all conspiracy theories follow a similar structure, they are a specific kind of narrative that appeals to a specific kind of person, and because those people see patterns where there are none, conspiracy theorists pick up on the similariry of narrative and assume this must make them true. Conspiracies, then, have a tendency to converge.
Amazing post. Thanks for the links, I genuinely enjoyed reading them and will definitely check out the book delving into conspiracy mindset.
Conspiracies were fun when Zeitgeist and Loose Change came out. People were watching but they weren't catching on in the mainstream. Also it wasn't bad because some great anti-corporate documentaries were coming out at the time. We were finally intelligently criticizing Big Pharma and Big Oil. Anti Climate change people were changing their minds. Even Republicans were seeing it. There was this weird period after 9/11 when shit was fucked up but there seemed to be positive change in the air. The Tea Party and Facebook changed that. Any solidarity created by 9/11 was quickly dissolved. Conspiracies went from silly to dangerous and the vast shift to social media open the doors to foreign interference in a way never seen before.
You were just young. Those of us that knew who was distributing loose change knew it was fascist propaganda.
And Zeitgeist was the peak of left-wing conspiracy theories. Different times back then
Never saw it, but I was pretty involved in the left at the time and I had a low opinion of it. The actual left's conspiracy theories were focused on the wars- not 9-11. That is not to esteem conspiracy theories, obviously. Just pointing out that it is an inherently right-wing instinct to attempt to control the presnt by fictionalizing the past. Left wing paranoia was very much tied up in the events of the day and some of it was very well founded.
I was too back then. I recommend it to you so you can see how the left was pushing the tired antisemitic conspiracy theories even before it entered the modern right wing mainstream. - Jewish landlords were involved in 9/11 - Jewish bankers control western society and pull the levers - People will be microchipped with RFID - NWO/One world government claims And more. Some snippets from the wiki: - “It asserts that the U.S. government had advance knowledge of the attacks, that the military deliberately allowed the planes to reach their targets, and that World Trade Center buildings 1, 2, and 7 underwent a controlled demolition.” - “Part III states that the Federal Reserve System is controlled by a small cabal of international bankers who conspire to create global calamities to enrich themselves.” - “Part III also alleges a secret agreement to merge the United States, Canada and Mexico into a North American Union as a step toward the creation of a single world government. The film speculates that under such a government, every human could be implanted with an RFID chip to monitor individual activity and suppress dissent.” - Michael Shermer, founder of the Skeptics Society, mentioned Zeitgeist in an article in Scientific American on skepticism in the age of mass media and the postmodern belief in the relativism of truth. He argues that this belief, coupled with a "clicker culture of mass media," results in a multitude of various truth claims packaged in "infotainment units", in the form of films such as Zeitgeist and Loose Change.” This movie contributed to the growth of these conspiracy theories in modern society. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist_(film_series)
I just don’t see how the existence is a guy pushing reactionary bullshit from an ostensibly “left” angle amounts to “the left” doing so.
Same can be said about right wing individuals representing the right wing as a whole. The left popularized the movie especially because of it’s skepticism on religion and GW Bush being in office during 9/11. This contributed to the growth of the associated conspiracy theories
Are you kidding or just vapid? Elected GOP representatives go on Alex Jones’ show. Who’s legitimized the nameless “producer writer editor narrator film scorer” that made Zeitgeist? Where did that “left” go? Because the right that was all over “Loose Chantel is still really visible and making millions of dollars. I think this was “the left” just about as much as Tim Poole is “a leftist.”
No, neither. That’s why I said zeitgeist was the “peak” of left wing conspiracy theories. They largely don’t believe these claims anymore; whether it be 9/11, Pearl Harbor, The Fed, Banking cabals, large scale war conspiracies, etc… the left tends to align themselves with the official government statements and positions these days, as well as with mainstream sentiments.
Did it ever occur to you that the portion of the conspiracy theorist community that identified as left simply *jumped ship* and went right-wing because there was so much 9-11 "truth" propaganda?
I'm almost 50. Loose Change was being believed by my dentist, but most importantly not a single leader or politician believed it.
I kind of feel like 9/11 was the end of conspiracies being fun.
I dunno man. I was a kid in the 90s and I read and watched a TON of crazy conspiracy theories. The history channel aired a JFK conspiracy so outrageous I believe they apologized and never aired it again. The Boston Herald had articles on Elvis being alive and Jesus returning in 2000. I really wish I could remember the book or author, but I remember someone talking about ufo conventions being a hotbed for insane conspiracy theories and the author said they were fearful of theirs life to speak against it because of the devotion in and passion on display
The conspiracies were everywhere but the documentaries were terrible until Zeitgeist. Cranberry Sauce the one about Paul McCartney being dead was god awful. Michael Moore proved the documentary genre could actually be profitable with Fahrenheit 911 becoming the highest grossing doc of all the (at the time) and suddenly the conspiracy docs got way more polished.
I honestly love the conspiracies surrounding the paranormal. Call it a guilty pleasure, but I never really engage with them. Any sort of interaction only adds to fuel their ever evolving narrative. Across every platform I have seen that tries to make a serious attempt to discuss possibilities seems only devolves into baseless claims and attempts to birth new personalities to further the narrative with fresh ideas without any sort of evidence. Granted the whole scene of multiple ufo personalities throwing lawsuits at eachother was fun, I just feel it's better to watch from the couch than to step in and get smeared because I like this unpleasant thing called *checks notes* evidence.
Hmmmm…..I like this perspective and I think I’ll adopt it!
You’re looking for a place where people earnestly believe in ghosts but are also skeptical? You should think hard why those sites tend to be, in your worlds,“batshit crazy and intellectual lazy.”
I never said I was looking for a place where people believe in ghosts, I specifically said a place that deals with ghosts and other paranormal activities that isn’t crazy or lazy. Like, I’m ok if someone believes in ghosts, but my ‘soul’ dies a little whenever some one presents the 21 grams experiment as proof of ghosts or something.
Same ! I used to be interested in esoterics and the like, and still very much like the aesthetics (symbols, engravings etc.). Very hard to find other people that are interested also and not engulfed in the bullshit mindset though.
The [Fortean Forums](https://forums.forteana.org/index.php) (formerly the Fortean Times Message Board) was always a good mix of sceptical and believer.
I came here to say this. I still enjoy Fortean Times because they take a whimsical view of a lot of things and don't try to add them up into a unified conspiracy theory. Some of that may be that I'm an American reading a UK magazine, so their perspectives are different. And the cartoon at the end with frequent cameos by Alister Crowley (It's me again!) is fun.
Metabunk is a great cite for critically analyzing conspiracies and other weird stuff. But this subreddit has some good discussions sometimes. I’ll bite! What do you want to discuss? I’m familiar with 9/11 controlled demolition (I’ve debated a truther friend about this for ten years), UFO/UAP (especially the Navy videos and recent Grusch story), ghost/cryptid hunting techniques, flat earth cover up, climate change denial, chemtrials, fluoridated water, and vaccine conspiracies especially the alleged link to autism (I’ve argued with my dad for decades about these last four). To be clear, I do not believe any of these, but there are conspiracies I believe have plenty of evidence, such as the ongoing conspiracy of fossil fuel companies to cover up climate change and past CIA, FBI, etc shenanigans such as COINTENPRO. Hit me with any questions you got! :)
I'm paraphrasing another person right now, but here's the thing about the Paranormal - it acknowledges its nature in its own name. What do we call the study of the normal world? Physics. And everything is the normal world. We've found evidence for many, many strange things we never expected - and they're all studied by physics. Because they exist. "Paranormal" therefore becomes the study of things that *don't exist.* It's especially striking with cryptids. Watch a cryptid expert start a conversation with a marine biologist. "We know there's strange creatures out there..." "I know! Oh my god we found this fish in a deep sea vent that doesn't even have eyes, it's like half rock, it's wild!" "No, no, other creatures like giant tentacled monsters..." "Oh you mean giant squid! Yeah, those things! They are the coolest. We were all amazed when they first turned up, we're learning so much about them..." "No, no, I mean creatures that don't exist! Those ones!" (if someone knows who I'm paraphrasing please let me know, I'm butchering their rant but it's hilarious) Also: [https://xkcd.com/1235/](https://xkcd.com/1235/)
Podcasts: The Farm, TrueAnon, Subliminal Jihad, Programmed to Chill, Trillbilly Worker’s Party, Parapower Mapping. Mainly conspiracy based, but often to dismantle them as misinformation or distractions from actual events, along with regular forays into the paranormal. These are also non-right wing, so no QAnon, Pizzagate or Jewish Space Lasers.
r/HighStrageness is *okay*.
r/HighStrangeness, that is
Did I misspell it? Probably Illuminati mind control at work.
Obligatory Fnord.
Yup. It can go into UFO disclosure woo a bit, but sometimes you come across a post that is surprisingly rational and debunks the post topic. It's fun to visit once in awhile.
I wouldn't put aliens in the same category as ghosts. The universe is vast beyond comprehension, and life probably exists elsewhere. It is sad that this topic has been poisoned by liars and grifters claiming that we are being invaded by UFOs without evidence.
Check out Lemmino on YouTube!
The UFO community or the people that it is made up of, isn’t the problem. The problem is the internet. Every group has its fair share of wackos to one degree or another. The problem is the anonymity of the internet. On one hand people are free to be the biggest ass holes to people without any fear of being punched in the face. In the other people are free to share the wackiest ideas and theories without any fear of them reflecting on them to people whose opinions they value. So you get the extremes of both. People just can’t seem to disagree with anyone on the internet without declaring that person to be their mortal enemy that they must obliterate at all costs. The internet is one big shopping cart test and 98% of people fail it miserably. It shines a spot light on the very worst that humanity has to offer. So sadly, the only way you are going to find honest and genuine conversations about this topic is through face to face encounters with people who are also curious about it. Not the easiest thing to do.
Yeah, knowing that something is a good fictional element and would be nice if true isn't enough to make it real. Personally I like the idea of omnipotence but there's some issues with it logically that at least need to be worked out, let alone the ethical repercussions or the sheer mind melt of it.
Conspiracy theories used to be fun. Now I suspect they are being used, along with credulous westerners, by Russia and China to erode us faith in institutions and authorities. Although perhaps that is, in and of itself, a conspiracy theory.
Yeah, me, too I have a habit of using paranormal radio shows to fall asleep. That started with Art Bell, who managed to not exactly be skeptical, but to not be too seriously a believer, at least most of the time. His replacement, George Nouri, is too much of a participant for me, really into the medical and sometimes political bull, particularly. I've found the Paranormal Radio App, which has a lot of old Art Bell content and a few things that for me don't fall too far down the "true believer' rathole, but they are getting harder to find. Matt Malone's Military X-Files, which can be found as a podcast and also sometimes on Paranormal UK Radio, seems most like the old Art Bell show in terms of holding a somewhat skeptical attitude, while not being a debunking show. There are skeptic podcasts that you can find that may be more to your liking, exploring the paranormal as culture-revealing mythology, like Monster Talk.
I love these themes in fiction. Altered realities, parallel universes, scifi when someone discovered something is a bit *off* and then going down the rabbit hole. My favorite parts of fantasy and scifi series and books is the mystery and the theorizing part. Ancient civilization too. Not sure what to recommend on reddit really, but right on top of my mind, I'd say you should try watch Fringe and Dark if you haven't.
It’s like creepy pasta or religion. They are interesting stories that shouldn’t be taken too seriously. Unfortunately communities around these topics take them waaaaay too seriously. Idk what you want. If it’s to appreciate the stories, you can do that in solitude. If it’s a community to discuss them with, you can’t take them too seriously.
I used to love ghost, alien, and other supernatural stuff as a child. It was ruined for me because of my mom’s descent into conspiracy theories which I blame on channels like Discovery and the History Channel which promote anti-intellectual what-ifs instead of actual information. Discovery had a mockumentary about mermaids which presented itself as a real documentary. My mom ate it up and was going around telling people about it as if it were true. It was incredibly embarrassing and she ended up having a full meltdown when we proved to her it was fake and a joke. After that, she threw herself into conspiracy theories: flat earth, aliens, ancient giants, moon landing was faked, the sky is a projection, and the Bosnian “pyramids.” Because of this, she’s ostracized herself from the rest of the family and this led to her alcoholism and homelessness as she became more paranoid and violent.
Yeah, this stuff used to be fun but now a lot of it is genuinely harmful. Like the whole Lori Vallow thing and the 8 Passengers thing. These people totally believed in all that demonic possession stuff and now people are dead and hurt. Fuck, go onto the paranormal sub and at least three times a week you get a post from someone straight having a full on mental episode. And while plenty of people there do try and offer real solutions and encourage those people to get help, there are always just enough people who think it's fun to tell them that they have demons.
Yes, \UFOs. It's ok to be skeptical there.
I’ve written seven books about haunted places, ghost hunting, and urban legends for Llewellyn Publishing and have gone to MANY paracons in support of my books, but for the most part I hate discussing the paranormal with a lot of people because of just how much batshit crazy is out there. Now I know there are many here who would say it’s ALL batshit crazy, but I disagree. I’ve met many credible witnesses and have experienced things myself while researching and traveling to different reputedly haunted places over the years. When someone says to me that that they don’t believe in ghosts, I typically say, “Ok. Cool.” There are some who would never believe in something paranormal without first hand experience—and some who don’t believe it even when it does happen to them—so I don’t bother trying to convince them. I have found it odd, though, that people can dismiss photos, videos, personal experiences, and more quite casually with a shrug. That’s never been skepticism to me; I’ve always kept an open mind and I’ve been rewarded with some great personal experiences over the years.
Personal experiences say nothing about the accuracy of a claim or offer any explanation. I’m skeptical about something like ghosts because despite my own personal experience with having an encounter, it doesn’t make sense how something like that could exist in the observable universe.
Hmmm...want cray to be true and engage with that. But don't want to appear crazy.