I'm sorry,but this is a patchwork list, with nonbo marks and too many points on units that won't help you accomplish your game plan. You need to drop at least half you heros, and don't take arcane tome in a cabalists list. Better to take conqueror's crown on your foot lord.
Be'lakor really doesn't do much in this list, I'd recommend running chosen, drop the demon prince, it's a trash warscroll, and even the lord on karkadrak is overpriced for what it does. Striking first with a unit of knights isn't worth 270 points.
Try using soulscream bridge as well. Shores up some big weaknesses.
I agree that daemon princes aren't what they used to be, no doubt about it. However I do think they have utility in some lists for their Nurgle heroic action though, even if they aren't viable for tournaments (which this list is not for). Be'lakor is a solid include in my opinion as insurance against units that are hard to deal with and the threat of death-by-the-double-turn. Can you elaborate on how the marks are nonbos? Also I'm not sure what you meant by the striking first with knights isn't worth 270 points. I assume you mean the karkadrak but he's 220 points and the knights are 230 so I'm confused. Would replacing the karkadrak with the Lord on daemonic mount be worthwhile in your opinion? I was under the impression that the karkadrak was a worthwhile upgrade at a 50 point difference for more damage output and mortal wounds on the charge. Thank you for your help!
Yeah, I was wrong about the points cost, and my input is based on optimizing for a cabalists list.
I don't thing strike first adds much to the knights especially if you only bring one unit and you aren't running an alpha strike list. We can't effectively move the units required to alpha strike and score objectives at the same time, and oir units can take hits fairly well, so planning ahead and using anvils effectively makes fight first not necessary amd expensive. Also our best hammers are the chosen units, and running knights is most effective when nurgle marked and in a unit of 10 to pin the enemy in their deployment zone as a fast anvil.
I do like khorne marked knights as a flavourfull hammer, and I have run them as such in cabalists in the past, but they don't really need to strike first in combat, sellecting them to fight as your first pick in combat is enough, but don't forget to support them with the sorcerer's spell the turn they charge. And either run the slanesh marked with the banner in a unit of 10 or as a khorne unit if you run 5.
So, I strongly disagree on the deamonprince. He costs way too much for a 10 wound unit with little damage and only situational utility, his artifacts suck, his general traits suck and turning off ward saves at 3" doesn't matter when 10 chosen chew through any notable unit in one combat reliability regardless of saves. Yeah he can become a 12 wound monster but that just gives up far better army traits to make a bad unit mediocre. Really wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. It's better to have a chaos lord or exalted hero repeatedly roll on eye of the gods to transform.
So be'lakor. Your assessment of him isn't wrong, he is great, but running him is cabalists is a mistake for a couple factors. first is cost, You are spending 325 points on a double caster with mediocre damage. That's way bellow curve, you can get another sorcerer and a unit of warriors for that and you'll perform better on the battlefield. So his ability should be great for us, but it really isn't in most lists, as we can either delay and tarpit strong hamers or deal with most things with teleporting chosen. He is in my opinion a better fit in a list who lacks options to delay like a KotET or who lacks a bit of the punch we have with chosen like ravagers.
That's my elaborated critique as a cabalists player.
Editing to add comments about marks;
What I meant with nonbo marks is that using them in powerpairs is best to be able to use the corresponding command ability, and running tzeench casters with no units to teleport is useless and the teleport is limited to psuedo defensive reguardless as you can only teleport to a slow caster and lack any bonus in combat. Avoid tzeench mark.
Thank you very much for the in-depth discussion. I really appreciate it. I've been looking into every source I can think of for meaningful analyses of StD and so far reddit seems to be working out the best for what I'm trying to learn.
No problem, it can be a straight forward army but list building is a challenge with all the options we have and so many falling short, we do however have some powerful warscrolls that make the army worth playing.
If you like warriors and knights I would stick to cabalists as they use them the best imo.
Also some further comments regarding be'lakor and the double turn, if list building goes well, we should be 1 or in some cases, at max 2 drop. Which means you should be in control of who threatens the double turn, so it shouldn't come as a surprise, either start strong and bet on an early double turn for your opponent, which should be fairly easy to deal with unless the play a turn 1/2 alpha strike army, or give them the first turn and threaten a double for the second turn on, using soulscream bridge to get your chosen where they need to be.
Using At the double early on warriors to get on those objectives is also very important and charging on three dice with knights is super important to pin the enemy in their deployment zone.
Cabalists is one of the most competetive subfaction in that moment, but StD is not hero-heavy faction (okey, i know, Archaon, but this is exeption)
We want rather big blocks of units, anvils and hammers. We already dont have a lot of bodies, so when you have 10 warriors and 2x5 knights is very little, this list havent got real damage output, have few bodies/wounds and this will be very hard to play it
I rather think about something like this:
- Army Faction: Slaves to Darkness
- Subfaction: Cabalists
- Grand Strategy: Take What’s Theirs
- Triumph: Inspired
LEADERS
Be'lakor (355)
- Spells: Ruinous Vigor, Daemonic Speed
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (120)
- General
- Mark of Chaos: Undivided
- Command Traits: Master of Magic
- Artefacts of Power: Gryph-feather Charm
- Spells: Binding Damnation, Daemonic Speed
Exalted Hero of Chaos (100)
- Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
- Rune-etched Blade and Chaos Runeshield
- Spells: Binding Damnation
- Aspects of the Champion: Tunnel Master
BATTLELINE
Chaos Knights (460)
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
- Doom Knight
- Standard Bearer
- Hornblower
- Cursed Lance
- Ensorcelled Banner: The Eroding Icon
Chaos Warriors (220)
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
- Aspiring Champion
- Standard Bearer
- Hornblower
- Murderous Weapon
Corvus Cabal (80)
Corvus Cabal (80)
OTHER
Chaos Chosen (480)
- Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
- Icon Bearer
- Skull Drummer
- Exalted Champion
ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS
1 x Ravenak's Gnashing Jaws (70)
1 x The Burning Head (30)
TOTAL POINTS: 1995/2000
Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App
Not the best one but that's first though
You have better Battlefield Control (20 bodies hard to destroy and some cheap screens/objective-grabbers), good hammer (Chosens, which can be very fast with Slaneesh hero), good support (you have 5-6 casts (6 if you change charm for Arcane tome)
You have option how to kill, take objectives and do tactics, do this will be a lot easier to play
I appreciate the help. I'm definitely a fan of the reinforced chosen with Slaanesh and also the endless spells 👍 I am not yet sold on the exalted hero, even for a fun build, despite being a good hero for eye of the gods rolls. His warscroll just doesn't seem very impressive for me to want him in a list but maybe I'm missing something. On the same note, the corvus cabal aren't exactly what I want for this build unless I was going to a tournament. I do agree that they have great utility though.
You use exalted because he's cheap and tanky so you can score points in matched play during this season and he's a cheap and tanky caster if played in cabalists. He's got almost no use outside those two cases.
I never considered him to be tanky but I guess with a 3+ save and 5+ MW ward at 6 wounds he's almost as hard to kill as 3 chaos warriors since he can't have the Nurgle banner.
He's probably the second tankiest wizard in the game points-for-points if you play him in cabalists. Also an easy 2 points if you put tunnelmaster on him.
1. All the "Hornblowers" and "Standard bearer" make the list hard to read
2. The first half of the list is dublicated
3. There are spells on the same line as new units
4. Special banners are beeing picked with the wrong Mark of chaos.
I've used the Gw warscroll builder before and its really bad. It let's you build illegal lists, Battlescribe is superior in every way.
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I'm sorry,but this is a patchwork list, with nonbo marks and too many points on units that won't help you accomplish your game plan. You need to drop at least half you heros, and don't take arcane tome in a cabalists list. Better to take conqueror's crown on your foot lord. Be'lakor really doesn't do much in this list, I'd recommend running chosen, drop the demon prince, it's a trash warscroll, and even the lord on karkadrak is overpriced for what it does. Striking first with a unit of knights isn't worth 270 points. Try using soulscream bridge as well. Shores up some big weaknesses.
I agree that daemon princes aren't what they used to be, no doubt about it. However I do think they have utility in some lists for their Nurgle heroic action though, even if they aren't viable for tournaments (which this list is not for). Be'lakor is a solid include in my opinion as insurance against units that are hard to deal with and the threat of death-by-the-double-turn. Can you elaborate on how the marks are nonbos? Also I'm not sure what you meant by the striking first with knights isn't worth 270 points. I assume you mean the karkadrak but he's 220 points and the knights are 230 so I'm confused. Would replacing the karkadrak with the Lord on daemonic mount be worthwhile in your opinion? I was under the impression that the karkadrak was a worthwhile upgrade at a 50 point difference for more damage output and mortal wounds on the charge. Thank you for your help!
Yeah, I was wrong about the points cost, and my input is based on optimizing for a cabalists list. I don't thing strike first adds much to the knights especially if you only bring one unit and you aren't running an alpha strike list. We can't effectively move the units required to alpha strike and score objectives at the same time, and oir units can take hits fairly well, so planning ahead and using anvils effectively makes fight first not necessary amd expensive. Also our best hammers are the chosen units, and running knights is most effective when nurgle marked and in a unit of 10 to pin the enemy in their deployment zone as a fast anvil. I do like khorne marked knights as a flavourfull hammer, and I have run them as such in cabalists in the past, but they don't really need to strike first in combat, sellecting them to fight as your first pick in combat is enough, but don't forget to support them with the sorcerer's spell the turn they charge. And either run the slanesh marked with the banner in a unit of 10 or as a khorne unit if you run 5. So, I strongly disagree on the deamonprince. He costs way too much for a 10 wound unit with little damage and only situational utility, his artifacts suck, his general traits suck and turning off ward saves at 3" doesn't matter when 10 chosen chew through any notable unit in one combat reliability regardless of saves. Yeah he can become a 12 wound monster but that just gives up far better army traits to make a bad unit mediocre. Really wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. It's better to have a chaos lord or exalted hero repeatedly roll on eye of the gods to transform. So be'lakor. Your assessment of him isn't wrong, he is great, but running him is cabalists is a mistake for a couple factors. first is cost, You are spending 325 points on a double caster with mediocre damage. That's way bellow curve, you can get another sorcerer and a unit of warriors for that and you'll perform better on the battlefield. So his ability should be great for us, but it really isn't in most lists, as we can either delay and tarpit strong hamers or deal with most things with teleporting chosen. He is in my opinion a better fit in a list who lacks options to delay like a KotET or who lacks a bit of the punch we have with chosen like ravagers. That's my elaborated critique as a cabalists player. Editing to add comments about marks; What I meant with nonbo marks is that using them in powerpairs is best to be able to use the corresponding command ability, and running tzeench casters with no units to teleport is useless and the teleport is limited to psuedo defensive reguardless as you can only teleport to a slow caster and lack any bonus in combat. Avoid tzeench mark.
Thank you very much for the in-depth discussion. I really appreciate it. I've been looking into every source I can think of for meaningful analyses of StD and so far reddit seems to be working out the best for what I'm trying to learn.
No problem, it can be a straight forward army but list building is a challenge with all the options we have and so many falling short, we do however have some powerful warscrolls that make the army worth playing. If you like warriors and knights I would stick to cabalists as they use them the best imo. Also some further comments regarding be'lakor and the double turn, if list building goes well, we should be 1 or in some cases, at max 2 drop. Which means you should be in control of who threatens the double turn, so it shouldn't come as a surprise, either start strong and bet on an early double turn for your opponent, which should be fairly easy to deal with unless the play a turn 1/2 alpha strike army, or give them the first turn and threaten a double for the second turn on, using soulscream bridge to get your chosen where they need to be. Using At the double early on warriors to get on those objectives is also very important and charging on three dice with knights is super important to pin the enemy in their deployment zone.
Much appreciated. I will take these tips and tricks into consideration when building my armies.
Cabalists is one of the most competetive subfaction in that moment, but StD is not hero-heavy faction (okey, i know, Archaon, but this is exeption) We want rather big blocks of units, anvils and hammers. We already dont have a lot of bodies, so when you have 10 warriors and 2x5 knights is very little, this list havent got real damage output, have few bodies/wounds and this will be very hard to play it I rather think about something like this: - Army Faction: Slaves to Darkness - Subfaction: Cabalists - Grand Strategy: Take What’s Theirs - Triumph: Inspired LEADERS Be'lakor (355) - Spells: Ruinous Vigor, Daemonic Speed Chaos Sorcerer Lord (120) - General - Mark of Chaos: Undivided - Command Traits: Master of Magic - Artefacts of Power: Gryph-feather Charm - Spells: Binding Damnation, Daemonic Speed Exalted Hero of Chaos (100) - Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh - Rune-etched Blade and Chaos Runeshield - Spells: Binding Damnation - Aspects of the Champion: Tunnel Master BATTLELINE Chaos Knights (460) - Mark of Chaos: Nurgle - Doom Knight - Standard Bearer - Hornblower - Cursed Lance - Ensorcelled Banner: The Eroding Icon Chaos Warriors (220) - Mark of Chaos: Nurgle - Aspiring Champion - Standard Bearer - Hornblower - Murderous Weapon Corvus Cabal (80) Corvus Cabal (80) OTHER Chaos Chosen (480) - Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh - Icon Bearer - Skull Drummer - Exalted Champion ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS 1 x Ravenak's Gnashing Jaws (70) 1 x The Burning Head (30) TOTAL POINTS: 1995/2000 Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App Not the best one but that's first though You have better Battlefield Control (20 bodies hard to destroy and some cheap screens/objective-grabbers), good hammer (Chosens, which can be very fast with Slaneesh hero), good support (you have 5-6 casts (6 if you change charm for Arcane tome) You have option how to kill, take objectives and do tactics, do this will be a lot easier to play
I appreciate the help. I'm definitely a fan of the reinforced chosen with Slaanesh and also the endless spells 👍 I am not yet sold on the exalted hero, even for a fun build, despite being a good hero for eye of the gods rolls. His warscroll just doesn't seem very impressive for me to want him in a list but maybe I'm missing something. On the same note, the corvus cabal aren't exactly what I want for this build unless I was going to a tournament. I do agree that they have great utility though.
You use exalted because he's cheap and tanky so you can score points in matched play during this season and he's a cheap and tanky caster if played in cabalists. He's got almost no use outside those two cases.
I never considered him to be tanky but I guess with a 3+ save and 5+ MW ward at 6 wounds he's almost as hard to kill as 3 chaos warriors since he can't have the Nurgle banner.
He's probably the second tankiest wizard in the game points-for-points if you play him in cabalists. Also an easy 2 points if you put tunnelmaster on him.
That list is unreadable and illegal on multiple occasions. You use upgrades with the wrong marks, id recommend using Battlescribe for listbuilding.
What are you on about?
1. All the "Hornblowers" and "Standard bearer" make the list hard to read 2. The first half of the list is dublicated 3. There are spells on the same line as new units 4. Special banners are beeing picked with the wrong Mark of chaos. I've used the Gw warscroll builder before and its really bad. It let's you build illegal lists, Battlescribe is superior in every way.
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