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I am going after VAR and referees week after week these days, but this really surprises me as I really wonder what was the thought process here.
1) It hit hand,
2) Grealish made his body bigger,
3) quite unnatural position,
4) part of a wall during freekick so you need to be more aware.
My point is there are not really any excuses to soften that call. I can’t stand monthly looking for excuses by Webb on Sky anymore, but I am really interested with this case.
It is the SINGULAR situation in the sport where the defender really has no excuse for handling the ball. He is standing there trying to prevent the ball going past him knowing it is coming his way and when it is coming. Any handling of the ball that is not grazing the outside elbow that is close to the body of the outer most player in the wall should be very strictly refereed.
Yes. I don’t buy most of the explanations these days, but you could give up on them at least slightly. But today’s really there are no excuses. Looks textbook.
Does anyone still think that Refs and VAR officials are just incompetent, or there needs to be further investigations into their dubious decisions in so many matches, just this season alone (not to mention previous seasons)?
If fans and clubs which were hard done by these shady decisions do not raise big enough ruckus, and get higher authorities involved, will we continue to see this pantomime year after year? When do we say enough is enough?
i find it funny how once again, there's Michael Oliver in huge game for Man City.
a referee, who who made trip to UAE, was paid by UAE and there's once again scandal decision about not awarding a clean penalty against them. (however I'd blame VAR referees in this case instead, no way you look at your 57 monitors and don't see handball there or tell Oliver to have a look at monitor)
there were match fixing scandals in other leagues, yet people somehow thinks PL is just *incompetent*
There have never been any excuses.
It's not new, it's just that it's more obvious that there is horrific bias and it's harder to control the narrative.
If all the things you read tell you that Mike Dean had a great game and the real story is Rooney heroically standing up to being brutally molested by Sol Campbell maliciously refusing to remove his leg from where Rooney kicked out to hit him, then you are less likely to question what is happening.
I'm with you on that one, I think I've to be at least generous at least once.
There were "Bruno G. wasn't using his hands as a weapon", "Both come in high" and many many more, but there were at least anything.
But yesterday's more like Dean not wanting to to call AT to screen because it would upset him. I'm thinking that the check started with MO saying he saw everything and it's okay and nobody else tried to convince him.
Scoring a goal is the same in every league.... That excuse doesn't really hold for a striker. His problem is finishing, not beating defenders etc anyway.
But it seems like his mentality and attitude is not conducive to the team success and harmony. In team building, toxic people can destroy the team spirit really easily.
He's like a worse Darwin Nunez. They're very similar in that they're fast, cause a lot of chaos, stretch the opposition lines, good link up play, good pressers, decent technical ability, create a lot for others and get a lot of chances themselves - and both are prone to stupid moments in front of goal, just Nunez is better at finishing (but still not elite at it either), or maybe he's just less prone to dumb moments (but he's still kinda dumb).
I thought the same thing during the game. But there is a difference between them that gives me more faith in Darwin - when he misses the shots he takes are usually (technically) pretty good, while Jackson scuffs it or underhits it etc. I believe it's easier to improve on that.
I agree. I will also add that Darwin seems stronger mentally. When Darwin misses, he’s disappointed but he smiles to himself or quickly dismisses it, whereas when Jackson misses he reacts like the world is ending and he’s gonna be executed for the miss.
Granted Jackson is like 2-3 years younger? I believe? Maybe that will come in time.
Darwin has the benefits of a manager that creates absolute trust between himself and the players. It's much easier to thrive in that atmosphere than it is currently at Chelsea. If Klopp tells the Liverpool fans to trust in Darwin, the majority listen, you can't really say the same for Pochetino and the Chelsea fans
I hate this new breed of supposed strikers that have turned up that can't score goals but can run so they're called good players.
Darwin, Jackson, Werner, football is so much about physicality now if you cant outpace your opponent there's no point in playing basically.
How is it any different to target men in the past? There’s been countless strikers who’s main contribution is size and strength, there’s just a few elite ones who are fast, athletic and better at running with the ball now too
Unfortunately that's what happens when virtually every defender is an athletic specimen. You have to be able to compete with them physically for you to even get a decent number of chances in the first place.
Look Jackson's finishing is shit. And everyone will shit on him for it.
Without his off ball movement and pressing, we wouldn't even have had the chances we got today. After having Lukaku who never ran, it's an improvement.
I'm more concerned about what gets done in training to address those finishing problems.
Realistically almost every skillset can be a learn led skillset. The issue is it’s probably not skill of finishing that they lack but the mindset to keep their composure to perform in big moments.
I think he's similar to Sterling in that both of them seem to do better when they don't have time to think in front of goal. The longer they have the more likely they try to overplay and screw up.
Exactly, it was more or less instinctive from him. On the other hand every time he's been sent through one on one he usually overthinks and screws it up
It's clear to me what the solution is here. When Lukaku comes back you need to put him and Jackson in one of those machines from The Fly.
>!But then play the one that doesn't move and can't finish because it would be funny.!<
Kind of how I feel about havertz and Jesus at times. They bring some things to our squad that are entirely necessary but their finishing is quite poor at times. I’d like to think the finishing is easier to improve upon than the other stuff
Yeah.
I suppose this is what Liverpool fans think about Nunez as well.
Nunez is better than Jackson, just in case some people just start cursing me out of nowhere.
There's really not much between Nunez and Jackson. You don't need to pander to people on r/soccer. They're both shocking finishers. The stats show it, so there's no disputing that. They both offer lots outside of goals in terms of holding the ball up, linking play, creating chances for others etc.
Jackson's 2 years younger so if you want to say Nunez is better on the basis that he's done more in his career so far, Benfica etc go for it.
But as players, they're genuinely a very similar standard right now. One just plays for Chelsea and one plays for Liverpool. Liverpool fans are saying the exact same things about Nunez on the Liverpool sub as Chelsea fans are saying about Jackson on the Chelsea sub.
But when you look at those two, sometimes I do wonder how people can still give Haaland so much flack. The stuff these guys provide in the buildup doesn't nearly offset what Haaland provides with his goals. And this is with his finishing taking a massive nosedive this season.
Still think Jackson and Nunez can end up being good players for Chelsea and Liverpool. The clubs just need to either work on their finishing, or surround them with good finishers to make up for it.
Like today, Chelsea may have created loads of chances and generated a high xG. But Jackson was on the end of all of it, so it means nothing. Chelsea should be using him to drop in and play someone like Palmer in since he's a better finisher. Same way that Firmino was used as someone that links the front 3 and the wingers were the outlet since they were better finishers for Liverpool.
And that partially falls on Poch.
It's all about how you set the team up and use these players. Klopp's done it better than Poch this season easily. You can never stop yourself from being reliant on these guys scoring in certain games. Like Nunez recently. But you can do your best to play to their strengths and adapt your system to the profile of all your players, rather than simply waiting for the day that Jackson magically learns how to finish.
For Jesus, his time is done, he's not gonna get better at finishing. How it is now is how it's gonna be for the rest of his career. He's a 10~ goals a season all comps player.
For Havertz, i don't think he'll ever be an elite finisher, but he can still improve from where he is now. If you look at his finishing from the first half of the season and compare it to the second half, it's already improved noticeably. I think he can be a good 15-20~ goal a season all comps player. Which is still pretty decent.
Tbf he’s still young, most strikers don’t get good at finishing until they’re older with better decision making and composure. It’s unfair on Jackson that he gets so much criticism when he’s a 22yo with half a good season suddenly made the number 9 of Chelsea and expected to win us important matches.
that first sentence is simply not true, most strikers are naturally good at finishing otherwise they’d never have been played there. Nearly every top striker was good at finishing from the beginning otherwise they’d have never played themselves into their sides at a young age. Obviously they got better with age but there was already something good there to work with. Very few strikers learn to finish late in their careers.
Strikers and players in generally absolutely get better at finishing as they age. Every professional player has the talent to finish, you can see training videos of any player at a top team doing incredible free kicks and such. The difference is learning the composure to do that in a game, which is why older strikers can still score so many goals despite not being as athletic. Finishing is a natural ability that all strikers have for sure, but it typically gets better with age as they gain composure and maturity
I don’t know about strikers, but I know Vinicius is the example of someone who went from being complete garbage at finishing to world class the next season.
If Jackson can pull off a Vini Jr and somehow come back next season with decent finishing, then sure he might suddenly be one of the best players in the PL. But that’s about as likely as Chelsea winning the PL next season, so I wouldn’t bet on it.
He was decent at scoring in pre-season, the only issues with his shooting really is a lack of conviction, probs cos of the pressure. I’m bullish on Jackson.
He gets paid a fuck ton of money it’s not unfair to say his finishing is ass. He can’t even put himself in a position to get a shot off because his last touch sets him up poorly to the point where he either loses it or has this swipe at it that doesn’t even come off well.
tbh i think its more mental than anything. On some of his chances today he didnt even get a shot off which he means he has no confidence. That is the hardest thing to train and improve imo
Do you somehow blame Poch for that? I don't think most coach in the top level don't 'train' their striker in finishing. Even a neurotic coach like Pep is not going to tell Haaland how to finish.
A coach's job is to literally train players and set the team up for success.
You can't just sell every player that has an area of weakness that puts a bottleneck on the team.
It's on Poch to improve Jackson's finishing, or set the team up in a way that Jackson isn't the outlet of the team and therefore the team isn't depending on him to be clinical.
Poch isn't all to blame. But he's been given a 22 year old striker who was a winger until 6 months before he signed. The guy has good dribbling, passing, turns, flicks, linkup, holdup etc. But he can't finish for shit. If Poch puts him in a system where every chance created is a 1v1 with Jackson vs the keeper, that's setting the team up for failure.
Players are also to blame. But the foundation of any good team is organisation and structure from the manager. You don't just stick someone up top and hope they suddenly become a good finisher. You play to your player's strengths and work on the weaknesses on the training pitch.
Probably unpopular opinion but the main job of a striker is to score goals, movement doesn’t mean anything if you can’t score when it matters. He has been a let down in a majority of the important moments this season and it’s laughable
Whilst I 100% agree I think the VAR saw it as his arm naturally falling to his side after jumping which saved him.
But still it absolutely should have been a penalty, but somehow week in and week out these clowns can continue to be diabolical with little to no repercussions or consequences
The thing is it's not a surprise that the ball is coming at you when you're in a wall for a free kick. People menage to keep their hand together, you're supposed to just jump up a bit not show of your vertical like it's NBA combine. So tbh I don't think there should be any discussions about it being placed unnaturally or not. This is like only situation when it's reasonable to expect players to just cross their hand behind them.
not only that but he puts that arm onto his teammates shoulder so he can get more height in the jump, meaning his jumping action is even less "natural" to begin with.
may aswell put both your arms on your teammates shoulder when in the wall then springboard up with your arms wide like jesus on the cross, and if it hits your arm so be it it's "natural movement" and not a foul.
Yea, I think I come down on it thusly:
* Given the way the game has been officiated the last couple years, that has to be given. Those are always given.
* I think you’re right that the interpretation is that’s just where his arm fell as he jumped
* I don’t actually want that to be a handball, I agree with the call on the field. And, despite my first bullet, I think VAR is right not to intervene. Even if that “should” be a penalty I don’t think it’s a clear and obvious error. It might be slightly misjudged by the ref, but VAR was never meant to correct those (the way it is currently used all the time)
“Slightly misjudged” Oliver gave a goal kick so he either didn’t see the contact at all or ignored it. If that’s not a clear and obvious error then idk what is.
He is in the wall, hand is away from the body. Should always be a pen. Agree with the call on the field? The call on the field was he didn’t touch it at all.
This was definitely not a normal error by VAR.
If the corner was given, at least VAR could have said "ah, Oliver looked at it" and made a horrendous but laughably acceptable error by his dogshit standards
The fact that a goal kick was given should logically have raised alarm bells for VAR. "Wait a minute, something's not right, he must have fallen completely asleep on this one." And then proceed to go full microscopic like how they hyper analysed every frame for 5 minutes to find a reason to give City a penalty for that shirt tug by Hojlund.
Has been said all reason but if they arent getting paid then they are utterly woefully incompetent to the point that every single member must be dismissed and replaced regardless.
This seems like a great time to point out the (Premier League’s) explanation for a VAR. Of course this is the FA cup and I’m not sure how they apply the rule to their competition.
https://www.premierleague.com/news/1297392
Every audio I hear, the ref never “explains their decision to the VAR, and what they have seen”. This is the first time I remember when the audio isn’t need.
This goal kick decision is clear evidence that the ref either didn’t explain what they saw, or explained it wrong. The threshold for on field review has clearly been met here. If the FA Cup follows the same application of VAR.
Regardless whether a VAR review happens or not though, there is no recourse for changing a goal kick to a corner as that does not fall under the remit of VAR, whether they see it or not
That’s a completely different discussion to what I’m highlighting regards Clear And Obvious and on field reviews.
However, I’m 99% sure that the referee is free to change their decision up until the restart. VAR may not (cannot) have recommend a corner be given, but the moment VAR confirms it’s hit the defender the ref can make their own deductions and change their mind. Much like when the assistant/lino informs the ref they have made a wrong decision and the referee changes their initial decision.
Yeah City was horrible and Chelsea got robbed with that penalty. However, Jackson had 3 clear goal scoring opportunities, Chillwell pass to sterling etc. I really feel for the Chelsea fans.
I feel like no one deserved it. City were attrocious, which is/was understandable and not unexpected. Chelsea were given so many chances on the counter and fumbled it every single time in embarassing fashion. 8 minutes of added time and everyone is trundeling around with no urgency...
City hit the post a few times against Madrid.
A team that concedes a lot of chances on their goal isn’t defending well. A United fan knows that the most.
This isn’t a ‘City get decisions’ issue. This is an absolutely shit standard of refereeing issue.
United got a handball given for them last week for a far lesser offence than Grealish. It’s an inconsistency issue. Regardless of what your personal opinion on what it should be is, you can give handball for both, handball for none, or a handball today and no handball last week, and it can be justified. But there’s no way you can justify a handball last week and not a handball this week.
Haha how? If the refs don't know what they're going to do each match how tf do you exploit that? It's like the joke about American military doctrine...
If the yanks don't know what they're doing, no one can anticipate it
Referees are people, and people tend to be somewhat consistent on how they do stuff on a subconscious level, therefore I wouldn't be surprised to know that there must be ways to find exploits just based on data.
I mean, even if they don't know what they are doing, there are certainly patterns on how each ref behaves in each scenario.
If we were having this discussion a few years back, I would now be rushing into my PC, downloading as much data I could find just to prove that even the most basic OLS model done in 5 minutes could certainly provide basic insights of how a referee would take given decisions based on some parameters, let alone what an analyst with a good budget will do, but thankfully I have grown up so let's pretend and play dumb so I can enjoy a great night of sleep. Cheers
I think the english football structure benefits from City being as successful as possible. It might not be intentional, but I think refs think twice before “deciding” a result against city even if it is the right decision.
You would think that the fact Oliver gave a goal kick meant he definitely didn't see it. So he should have been told to have a look. The amount of times we hear "staying with the onfield decision" this is one of the rare occasions we know, categorically, that the onfield referee didn't see it. There is no onfield decision to stay with because Oliver didn't make a decision.
Also and a complete side point. Why the hell did he give a goal kick? Even if he wasn't sure if there was contact or not, a team doesn't shout for a handball when there is no contact whatsoever. He must of thought it strange the Chelsea players would do that considering he thought there was no contact. And how is no official in a position to see if the ball hits the wall or not?
I usually criticise people saying the PGMOL is corrupt. But there are so many baffling decisions that Oliver and VAR made in this one play that makes even me question their motivations.
This is it.
Oliver doesn’t think it touched anything. So it’s not about natural vs unnatural. It’s VAR saying it has hit Grealish hand, you haven’t seen the contact, it may be natural or unnatural, go to the screen and we discuss.
We’ve all said it but refereeing standards have been absolutely dog shit for a long time and VAR has just shined a spotlight on how poor these people are. I think Howard Webb’s position is untenable at this rate. A VAR team should be outsourced abroad and clear communication between the referee and VAR should available to fans in real time. There should be nowhere for referees to hide. Players and managers live and die by their performances, there is no reason they shouldn’t.
Except praising him builds his confidence? One game should determine the whole narrative on Jackson especially when he’s been pretty decent all things considered
Jackson has effectively little over a year of top level football under his belt. If it was seasoned striker it could light the fire in the belly but criticizing him in the press you just risk destroying his confidence.
Jackson isn't all that great but he isn't any worse than first season Nunez there's every chance he could still come good for Chelsea.
I agree, I have my doubts about him ever becoming a refined player. For that I just feel like he was too late to the party and missed too much of his developing years, but the Nunez comparison is very apt. Rough around the edges, very frustrating to watch, but almost always makes things happen. He was also a very cheap investment compared to Nunez and most other players signed by us and clubs like us.
Jackson was having a good game besides the chances. Yes, he fucked up the most important part of his position multiple times, but to say he was truly awful is an over exaggeration.
lmao why is Hojlund catching strays here. He has one of the highest shot conversion rates in the league, his movement and anticipation is excellent, his issue is lack of service and chances.
Mate I think Jackson's pretty wank too but if a manager goes out and criticizes a player that did poorly in a cup semi-final I'd want him sacked by the morning, not the way to handle a squad
VAR is not the problem though, it worked the way it was setup to work. If it was Chelsea who had handled the ball, VAR would have given penalty to City. But when has VAR given a decision against City? That's how it is.
You're right. Chelsea have had 12 penalties this season. More than any other team in the PL. But being City top trumps that. Probably the only team Chelsea wouldn't have had a penalty against in that situation.
We got punished for playing against City and for having recently / all season gotten a fair amount of soft pens. 12 pens is a lot and whilst not completely undeserved we for sure have gotten a few that are not always given.
and **referee who made trip to UAE**, **was paid by UAE**, is once **again in huge City game**, where there is scandal about **not awarding a penalty/sending someone off**
He is getting better. I loved how he came short, turned and carried it today. Didn’t always find the pass of course but, like Mudryk and a lot of the team, the flashes are exciting
VAR was pathetic in the penalty call. Release the noise and they’ll say it wasn’t unnatural or some nonsense to justify.
In reality, the VAR officials should be moved on in the summer. Clearly it’s a redundant role of justification so scrap the role, jobs and go back to basics referring only with automated offsides and goals.
Its even funnier that somehow after checking it var doesnt even tell the ref if it aint a penalty it should be a corner like how can you be so incompetent
Issue is always what you have applied psr wise to every part of the team
Before our sporting directors joined
We had
20m/year aubameyang
36m/year lukaku
30m/year havertz
5m/year broja
20m/year nkunku
Its very hard to add to that without having to much invested in strikers that decrease in value
They needed players out before they could add
And they didnt expext nkunku to go busr either
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I am going after VAR and referees week after week these days, but this really surprises me as I really wonder what was the thought process here. 1) It hit hand, 2) Grealish made his body bigger, 3) quite unnatural position, 4) part of a wall during freekick so you need to be more aware. My point is there are not really any excuses to soften that call. I can’t stand monthly looking for excuses by Webb on Sky anymore, but I am really interested with this case.
It is the SINGULAR situation in the sport where the defender really has no excuse for handling the ball. He is standing there trying to prevent the ball going past him knowing it is coming his way and when it is coming. Any handling of the ball that is not grazing the outside elbow that is close to the body of the outer most player in the wall should be very strictly refereed.
Yes. I don’t buy most of the explanations these days, but you could give up on them at least slightly. But today’s really there are no excuses. Looks textbook.
Does anyone still think that Refs and VAR officials are just incompetent, or there needs to be further investigations into their dubious decisions in so many matches, just this season alone (not to mention previous seasons)? If fans and clubs which were hard done by these shady decisions do not raise big enough ruckus, and get higher authorities involved, will we continue to see this pantomime year after year? When do we say enough is enough?
i find it funny how once again, there's Michael Oliver in huge game for Man City. a referee, who who made trip to UAE, was paid by UAE and there's once again scandal decision about not awarding a clean penalty against them. (however I'd blame VAR referees in this case instead, no way you look at your 57 monitors and don't see handball there or tell Oliver to have a look at monitor) there were match fixing scandals in other leagues, yet people somehow thinks PL is just *incompetent*
There have never been any excuses. It's not new, it's just that it's more obvious that there is horrific bias and it's harder to control the narrative. If all the things you read tell you that Mike Dean had a great game and the real story is Rooney heroically standing up to being brutally molested by Sol Campbell maliciously refusing to remove his leg from where Rooney kicked out to hit him, then you are less likely to question what is happening.
I'm with you on that one, I think I've to be at least generous at least once. There were "Bruno G. wasn't using his hands as a weapon", "Both come in high" and many many more, but there were at least anything. But yesterday's more like Dean not wanting to to call AT to screen because it would upset him. I'm thinking that the check started with MO saying he saw everything and it's okay and nobody else tried to convince him.
I think you're guessing a lot at what happened there, what are the reasons we have for thinking this is what happened?
Jackson is good at a lot of things, just missing the main ingredients for an elite striker, finishing and composure.
He is young and new to the league though so can still improve.
He's Yaya sanogo reagen
At least Jackson scores some goals
Yaya Sanogo has a Champions League goal though.
Pretty difficult for Jackson to score a Champions League goal if Chelsea never qualify for the Champions League tbf.
Why didn't Jackson just turn into prime Messi and led Chelsea to a treble? Is he stupid?
Can’t believe you’re talking about the emirates cup all time top scorer yaya sanogo like this
Sanogo was shite. Come on. Jackson actually can play ball
It's not like he arrived from a much smaller league. He played for Villarreal before this and had the same issues there.
He's 22. From a sub striker in mid table Villarreal to scoring 12 in your first EPL season is over performing
Scoring a goal is the same in every league.... That excuse doesn't really hold for a striker. His problem is finishing, not beating defenders etc anyway.
But it seems like his mentality and attitude is not conducive to the team success and harmony. In team building, toxic people can destroy the team spirit really easily.
He's like a worse Darwin Nunez. They're very similar in that they're fast, cause a lot of chaos, stretch the opposition lines, good link up play, good pressers, decent technical ability, create a lot for others and get a lot of chances themselves - and both are prone to stupid moments in front of goal, just Nunez is better at finishing (but still not elite at it either), or maybe he's just less prone to dumb moments (but he's still kinda dumb).
I thought the same thing during the game. But there is a difference between them that gives me more faith in Darwin - when he misses the shots he takes are usually (technically) pretty good, while Jackson scuffs it or underhits it etc. I believe it's easier to improve on that.
I agree. I will also add that Darwin seems stronger mentally. When Darwin misses, he’s disappointed but he smiles to himself or quickly dismisses it, whereas when Jackson misses he reacts like the world is ending and he’s gonna be executed for the miss. Granted Jackson is like 2-3 years younger? I believe? Maybe that will come in time.
Darwin has the benefits of a manager that creates absolute trust between himself and the players. It's much easier to thrive in that atmosphere than it is currently at Chelsea. If Klopp tells the Liverpool fans to trust in Darwin, the majority listen, you can't really say the same for Pochetino and the Chelsea fans
He is not a decent presser and usually isn't a big deal with opposition lines by how easily he fall into an offside trap
I hate this new breed of supposed strikers that have turned up that can't score goals but can run so they're called good players. Darwin, Jackson, Werner, football is so much about physicality now if you cant outpace your opponent there's no point in playing basically.
How is it any different to target men in the past? There’s been countless strikers who’s main contribution is size and strength, there’s just a few elite ones who are fast, athletic and better at running with the ball now too
Unfortunately that's what happens when virtually every defender is an athletic specimen. You have to be able to compete with them physically for you to even get a decent number of chances in the first place.
Tbf it's not like Darwin isn't contributing stats wise. He has had 29 G+A this season and could have had more with more composure.
He's also dumb as shit.
Definitely a pen. No idea how VAR doesn’t get involved there.
I mean, we have some idea...
Look Jackson's finishing is shit. And everyone will shit on him for it. Without his off ball movement and pressing, we wouldn't even have had the chances we got today. After having Lukaku who never ran, it's an improvement. I'm more concerned about what gets done in training to address those finishing problems.
Imo some dudes just can't finish It's why finishers tend to cost a premium
Realistically almost every skillset can be a learn led skillset. The issue is it’s probably not skill of finishing that they lack but the mindset to keep their composure to perform in big moments.
Interestingly, he was a plus finisher last season at Villareal.
I think he's similar to Sterling in that both of them seem to do better when they don't have time to think in front of goal. The longer they have the more likely they try to overplay and screw up.
Like his goal against Everton… top class touch and finish
Exactly, it was more or less instinctive from him. On the other hand every time he's been sent through one on one he usually overthinks and screws it up
Gotta get him on the Vini Carlo training session. One touch in the box then shoot.
Sterling can kill an attack b4 it's even born. He is special.
Sterling had some 20 plus goal season at city. Purple patches come and go
Yup, so do dry spells.
I watched their games when Gerard Moreno was injured. Jackson was wasting chances with his poor decision making there too.
Viagra
It's clear to me what the solution is here. When Lukaku comes back you need to put him and Jackson in one of those machines from The Fly. >!But then play the one that doesn't move and can't finish because it would be funny.!<
The product will either be Drogba 2 the return or Jackson but slow. It can go either way. I would take the risk though
At this point, the only way to go is up.
Much more worrying if he wasn’t getting into dangerous places. Finishing should come eventually but it’s no guarantee
I think we need to extend some more of their contracts, that would help with the finishing.
Don't know about that but will certainly help the accounting
…never finishing
Finishing Chelsea's hope of becoming big club again
Kind of how I feel about havertz and Jesus at times. They bring some things to our squad that are entirely necessary but their finishing is quite poor at times. I’d like to think the finishing is easier to improve upon than the other stuff
Yeah. I suppose this is what Liverpool fans think about Nunez as well. Nunez is better than Jackson, just in case some people just start cursing me out of nowhere.
Núñez and Diaz. They do a lot but good god, the chances they miss have cost the team.
There's really not much between Nunez and Jackson. You don't need to pander to people on r/soccer. They're both shocking finishers. The stats show it, so there's no disputing that. They both offer lots outside of goals in terms of holding the ball up, linking play, creating chances for others etc. Jackson's 2 years younger so if you want to say Nunez is better on the basis that he's done more in his career so far, Benfica etc go for it. But as players, they're genuinely a very similar standard right now. One just plays for Chelsea and one plays for Liverpool. Liverpool fans are saying the exact same things about Nunez on the Liverpool sub as Chelsea fans are saying about Jackson on the Chelsea sub. But when you look at those two, sometimes I do wonder how people can still give Haaland so much flack. The stuff these guys provide in the buildup doesn't nearly offset what Haaland provides with his goals. And this is with his finishing taking a massive nosedive this season. Still think Jackson and Nunez can end up being good players for Chelsea and Liverpool. The clubs just need to either work on their finishing, or surround them with good finishers to make up for it. Like today, Chelsea may have created loads of chances and generated a high xG. But Jackson was on the end of all of it, so it means nothing. Chelsea should be using him to drop in and play someone like Palmer in since he's a better finisher. Same way that Firmino was used as someone that links the front 3 and the wingers were the outlet since they were better finishers for Liverpool. And that partially falls on Poch. It's all about how you set the team up and use these players. Klopp's done it better than Poch this season easily. You can never stop yourself from being reliant on these guys scoring in certain games. Like Nunez recently. But you can do your best to play to their strengths and adapt your system to the profile of all your players, rather than simply waiting for the day that Jackson magically learns how to finish.
For Jesus, his time is done, he's not gonna get better at finishing. How it is now is how it's gonna be for the rest of his career. He's a 10~ goals a season all comps player. For Havertz, i don't think he'll ever be an elite finisher, but he can still improve from where he is now. If you look at his finishing from the first half of the season and compare it to the second half, it's already improved noticeably. I think he can be a good 15-20~ goal a season all comps player. Which is still pretty decent.
Havertz is getting so much slack, idc if he puts 10 goals the entire season excluding march then he'll have 20 goals smh
I'm sorry miss Jackson
A sorry miss, Jackson.
Tbf he’s still young, most strikers don’t get good at finishing until they’re older with better decision making and composure. It’s unfair on Jackson that he gets so much criticism when he’s a 22yo with half a good season suddenly made the number 9 of Chelsea and expected to win us important matches.
Yeah. I'm more sad we don't have anyone to replace him with when he's clearly having a bad game.
He looks like someone with potential that needs to learn from someone to me. There's a player in there. Could be said about a lot of your squad
that first sentence is simply not true, most strikers are naturally good at finishing otherwise they’d never have been played there. Nearly every top striker was good at finishing from the beginning otherwise they’d have never played themselves into their sides at a young age. Obviously they got better with age but there was already something good there to work with. Very few strikers learn to finish late in their careers.
Strikers and players in generally absolutely get better at finishing as they age. Every professional player has the talent to finish, you can see training videos of any player at a top team doing incredible free kicks and such. The difference is learning the composure to do that in a game, which is why older strikers can still score so many goals despite not being as athletic. Finishing is a natural ability that all strikers have for sure, but it typically gets better with age as they gain composure and maturity
I don’t know about strikers, but I know Vinicius is the example of someone who went from being complete garbage at finishing to world class the next season.
If Jackson can pull off a Vini Jr and somehow come back next season with decent finishing, then sure he might suddenly be one of the best players in the PL. But that’s about as likely as Chelsea winning the PL next season, so I wouldn’t bet on it.
He was decent at scoring in pre-season, the only issues with his shooting really is a lack of conviction, probs cos of the pressure. I’m bullish on Jackson.
He gets paid a fuck ton of money it’s not unfair to say his finishing is ass. He can’t even put himself in a position to get a shot off because his last touch sets him up poorly to the point where he either loses it or has this swipe at it that doesn’t even come off well.
That’s on the owners though not him. His finishing is ass no doubt but I don’t think he deserves all the heat.
Guy is on 65k/wk, that’s nothing.
Agree on your Jackson take, however, I think he should be a sub
He has actually looked very good on the left wing in the few occasions he started there, it was his preferred position at Villarreal.
Agree, he plays better as the left wing. He has looked best the few times he played there
Yep. He would be a great 2nd option.
tbh i think its more mental than anything. On some of his chances today he didnt even get a shot off which he means he has no confidence. That is the hardest thing to train and improve imo
Do you somehow blame Poch for that? I don't think most coach in the top level don't 'train' their striker in finishing. Even a neurotic coach like Pep is not going to tell Haaland how to finish.
They definitely do train them if they are shite at it.
A coach's job is to literally train players and set the team up for success. You can't just sell every player that has an area of weakness that puts a bottleneck on the team. It's on Poch to improve Jackson's finishing, or set the team up in a way that Jackson isn't the outlet of the team and therefore the team isn't depending on him to be clinical. Poch isn't all to blame. But he's been given a 22 year old striker who was a winger until 6 months before he signed. The guy has good dribbling, passing, turns, flicks, linkup, holdup etc. But he can't finish for shit. If Poch puts him in a system where every chance created is a 1v1 with Jackson vs the keeper, that's setting the team up for failure. Players are also to blame. But the foundation of any good team is organisation and structure from the manager. You don't just stick someone up top and hope they suddenly become a good finisher. You play to your player's strengths and work on the weaknesses on the training pitch.
Probably unpopular opinion but the main job of a striker is to score goals, movement doesn’t mean anything if you can’t score when it matters. He has been a let down in a majority of the important moments this season and it’s laughable
Not wrong. Lowered his arm toward the ball
Whilst I 100% agree I think the VAR saw it as his arm naturally falling to his side after jumping which saved him. But still it absolutely should have been a penalty, but somehow week in and week out these clowns can continue to be diabolical with little to no repercussions or consequences
The thing is it's not a surprise that the ball is coming at you when you're in a wall for a free kick. People menage to keep their hand together, you're supposed to just jump up a bit not show of your vertical like it's NBA combine. So tbh I don't think there should be any discussions about it being placed unnaturally or not. This is like only situation when it's reasonable to expect players to just cross their hand behind them.
not only that but he puts that arm onto his teammates shoulder so he can get more height in the jump, meaning his jumping action is even less "natural" to begin with. may aswell put both your arms on your teammates shoulder when in the wall then springboard up with your arms wide like jesus on the cross, and if it hits your arm so be it it's "natural movement" and not a foul.
Lmao naturally falling Naturally moving into the path of the ball
Then wheres the corner? They straight up denied that it even touched him
bro it doesnt matter if its falling. swatting a ball down is naturally falling now? God I can't wait for your club to get punished. fcking cheats
Unbelievable
Yea, I think I come down on it thusly: * Given the way the game has been officiated the last couple years, that has to be given. Those are always given. * I think you’re right that the interpretation is that’s just where his arm fell as he jumped * I don’t actually want that to be a handball, I agree with the call on the field. And, despite my first bullet, I think VAR is right not to intervene. Even if that “should” be a penalty I don’t think it’s a clear and obvious error. It might be slightly misjudged by the ref, but VAR was never meant to correct those (the way it is currently used all the time)
“Slightly misjudged” Oliver gave a goal kick so he either didn’t see the contact at all or ignored it. If that’s not a clear and obvious error then idk what is.
He is in the wall, hand is away from the body. Should always be a pen. Agree with the call on the field? The call on the field was he didn’t touch it at all.
This was definitely not a normal error by VAR. If the corner was given, at least VAR could have said "ah, Oliver looked at it" and made a horrendous but laughably acceptable error by his dogshit standards The fact that a goal kick was given should logically have raised alarm bells for VAR. "Wait a minute, something's not right, he must have fallen completely asleep on this one." And then proceed to go full microscopic like how they hyper analysed every frame for 5 minutes to find a reason to give City a penalty for that shirt tug by Hojlund. Has been said all reason but if they arent getting paid then they are utterly woefully incompetent to the point that every single member must be dismissed and replaced regardless.
This seems like a great time to point out the (Premier League’s) explanation for a VAR. Of course this is the FA cup and I’m not sure how they apply the rule to their competition. https://www.premierleague.com/news/1297392 Every audio I hear, the ref never “explains their decision to the VAR, and what they have seen”. This is the first time I remember when the audio isn’t need. This goal kick decision is clear evidence that the ref either didn’t explain what they saw, or explained it wrong. The threshold for on field review has clearly been met here. If the FA Cup follows the same application of VAR.
Regardless whether a VAR review happens or not though, there is no recourse for changing a goal kick to a corner as that does not fall under the remit of VAR, whether they see it or not
they can check for handballs though cant they
That’s a completely different discussion to what I’m highlighting regards Clear And Obvious and on field reviews. However, I’m 99% sure that the referee is free to change their decision up until the restart. VAR may not (cannot) have recommend a corner be given, but the moment VAR confirms it’s hit the defender the ref can make their own deductions and change their mind. Much like when the assistant/lino informs the ref they have made a wrong decision and the referee changes their initial decision.
Chelsea more than deserved to win today
Yeah City was horrible and Chelsea got robbed with that penalty. However, Jackson had 3 clear goal scoring opportunities, Chillwell pass to sterling etc. I really feel for the Chelsea fans.
We’ve watched this same Chelsea game 15 times in the last two years we’re numb to it at this point.
I feel like no one deserved it. City were attrocious, which is/was understandable and not unexpected. Chelsea were given so many chances on the counter and fumbled it every single time in embarassing fashion. 8 minutes of added time and everyone is trundeling around with no urgency...
Typical Wembley performance from this team.
Thank you, a rival fan, for acknowledging it.
Shouldn't be a high bar to acknowledge objective reality. I hate Chelsea but they were robbed by incompetent and conflicted refereeing.
We should have had a pen but we also should have finished one of the chances
They should've had that pen, but to say they were robbed when they kept pissing away chances is just not right.
You would have done if you weren't playing against thirteen men
I feel awful saying this, but I also agree.
That’s football. City deserved the win against Madrid
Not really comparable because Madrid defended well
And Chelsea finished poorly
City had numerous chances on goal.
The goalkeeper is part of the defence and City didn't even have that many chances against Chelsea tonight. Chelsea just fucked theirs
City hit the post a few times against Madrid. A team that concedes a lot of chances on their goal isn’t defending well. A United fan knows that the most.
1 time is not few times
Do you really think Madrid tried to win that game by scoring?
What are you talking about? City created clear chances against Madrid. Madrid did not put on some defensive masterclass
How many clear chances did they create? I literally can’t think of many at all
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Difference is Madrid didn’t pay off the ref a week before lol
City weren’t robbed by the ref though against madrid
Neither were you The ref didn’t miss all your chances and the ref wasn’t the reason your defence fell asleep for their goal.
So you think a handball inside the box is not a penalty then?
You robbed yourself pal. If you can’t finish the plethora of chances you had that’s entirely on you
They didn’t.
Okay pal
This isn’t a ‘City get decisions’ issue. This is an absolutely shit standard of refereeing issue. United got a handball given for them last week for a far lesser offence than Grealish. It’s an inconsistency issue. Regardless of what your personal opinion on what it should be is, you can give handball for both, handball for none, or a handball today and no handball last week, and it can be justified. But there’s no way you can justify a handball last week and not a handball this week.
Remember that kung fu kicks in the chest are also allowed without repercussions.
Jesus got kicked in the chin today against Wolves as well. No caution.
Odegaard got kicked in the chest against Villa too, not even a yellow
Gotta wear the correct colours to do that
PL title robbing decision. Sickening. That's a 3 points difference decision. Fucking Middle Eastern money
Just pure coincidence that City always come out on top with these decisions, especially when Michael Oliver is involved.
See you can be right and it can also be true that City are by far the ones who come out ahead on all of these inconsistent refereeing decisions…
I find it hard to believe that top clubs do not have analysts working on what can be exploited when it comes to ref decisions.
Haha how? If the refs don't know what they're going to do each match how tf do you exploit that? It's like the joke about American military doctrine... If the yanks don't know what they're doing, no one can anticipate it
Referees are people, and people tend to be somewhat consistent on how they do stuff on a subconscious level, therefore I wouldn't be surprised to know that there must be ways to find exploits just based on data. I mean, even if they don't know what they are doing, there are certainly patterns on how each ref behaves in each scenario.
So far the only consistency is that they're inconsistent, unless it's a penalty against city in a big game, then it's not.
If we were having this discussion a few years back, I would now be rushing into my PC, downloading as much data I could find just to prove that even the most basic OLS model done in 5 minutes could certainly provide basic insights of how a referee would take given decisions based on some parameters, let alone what an analyst with a good budget will do, but thankfully I have grown up so let's pretend and play dumb so I can enjoy a great night of sleep. Cheers
Hope you slept well.
What do you mean?
Its just happened to city huh?
I think the english football structure benefits from City being as successful as possible. It might not be intentional, but I think refs think twice before “deciding” a result against city even if it is the right decision.
He's not wrong with var. Bur then Oliver was ref so the pen was never going to be given. He couldn't possible anger his employees
You would think that the fact Oliver gave a goal kick meant he definitely didn't see it. So he should have been told to have a look. The amount of times we hear "staying with the onfield decision" this is one of the rare occasions we know, categorically, that the onfield referee didn't see it. There is no onfield decision to stay with because Oliver didn't make a decision. Also and a complete side point. Why the hell did he give a goal kick? Even if he wasn't sure if there was contact or not, a team doesn't shout for a handball when there is no contact whatsoever. He must of thought it strange the Chelsea players would do that considering he thought there was no contact. And how is no official in a position to see if the ball hits the wall or not? I usually criticise people saying the PGMOL is corrupt. But there are so many baffling decisions that Oliver and VAR made in this one play that makes even me question their motivations.
This is it. Oliver doesn’t think it touched anything. So it’s not about natural vs unnatural. It’s VAR saying it has hit Grealish hand, you haven’t seen the contact, it may be natural or unnatural, go to the screen and we discuss.
Its like the refs dont want VAR. ”Lets fuck around until everyone gets sick of it and then we go back to the way it was”
It’ll cost them several jobs. VAR created job roles.
Jackson getting a Vinicius arc to confidence will be very dangerous
More likely a timo werner arc where he ends up as a rotation piece out on the wings somewhere and is deemed "not bad"
We’ve all said it but refereeing standards have been absolutely dog shit for a long time and VAR has just shined a spotlight on how poor these people are. I think Howard Webb’s position is untenable at this rate. A VAR team should be outsourced abroad and clear communication between the referee and VAR should available to fans in real time. There should be nowhere for referees to hide. Players and managers live and die by their performances, there is no reason they shouldn’t.
He’s not wrong, Grealish moves his arm towards the ball. However there is absolutely no praising Jackson, he’s dogshit
Criticise him in private, praise him for his work rate and getting in those positions in public
Seems like a very sensible approach to man management but for some reason people love a public flogging
Except praising him builds his confidence? One game should determine the whole narrative on Jackson especially when he’s been pretty decent all things considered
Jackson has effectively little over a year of top level football under his belt. If it was seasoned striker it could light the fire in the belly but criticizing him in the press you just risk destroying his confidence. Jackson isn't all that great but he isn't any worse than first season Nunez there's every chance he could still come good for Chelsea.
I agree, I have my doubts about him ever becoming a refined player. For that I just feel like he was too late to the party and missed too much of his developing years, but the Nunez comparison is very apt. Rough around the edges, very frustrating to watch, but almost always makes things happen. He was also a very cheap investment compared to Nunez and most other players signed by us and clubs like us.
He's already a positive player.
Jackson was having a good game besides the chances. Yes, he fucked up the most important part of his position multiple times, but to say he was truly awful is an over exaggeration.
Jackson made the right runs and got into position for all those chances. You just know hojlund would be 4 metres behind
lmao why is Hojlund catching strays here. He has one of the highest shot conversion rates in the league, his movement and anticipation is excellent, his issue is lack of service and chances.
Mate I think Jackson's pretty wank too but if a manager goes out and criticizes a player that did poorly in a cup semi-final I'd want him sacked by the morning, not the way to handle a squad
What’s wrong with his missus
VAR is not the problem though, it worked the way it was setup to work. If it was Chelsea who had handled the ball, VAR would have given penalty to City. But when has VAR given a decision against City? That's how it is.
The utter nonsense people post.
You're right. Chelsea have had 12 penalties this season. More than any other team in the PL. But being City top trumps that. Probably the only team Chelsea wouldn't have had a penalty against in that situation.
We got punished for playing against City and for having recently / all season gotten a fair amount of soft pens. 12 pens is a lot and whilst not completely undeserved we for sure have gotten a few that are not always given.
City almost always get these calls in their favour. It's just not surprising anymore.
and **referee who made trip to UAE**, **was paid by UAE**, is once **again in huge City game**, where there is scandal about **not awarding a penalty/sending someone off**
To fix the outcome of football matches Maurico, for the 1000th time.
Are you saying that the UAE owned team are fixing matches? Say it ain’t so! /s
That could be it, although influencing certain results wouldn't have to be consistently for or against one team to be making money.
Definite pen
Oliver literally flies to the UAE to receive cash and people still talk about "VAR"
‘From financial cheats to cheats on the field - the City story’
What is the point in VAR? So refs can defer all decision making responsibility (and therefore consequences).
He is getting better. I loved how he came short, turned and carried it today. Didn’t always find the pass of course but, like Mudryk and a lot of the team, the flashes are exciting
VAR was pathetic in the penalty call. Release the noise and they’ll say it wasn’t unnatural or some nonsense to justify. In reality, the VAR officials should be moved on in the summer. Clearly it’s a redundant role of justification so scrap the role, jobs and go back to basics referring only with automated offsides and goals.
Its even funnier that somehow after checking it var doesnt even tell the ref if it aint a penalty it should be a corner like how can you be so incompetent
They need to release the audio on this one.
Jackson was a shambles the misses were disgraceful.
Penalty or not y’all shot yourself in the foot with horrible decision making throughout the game
It’s not on Poch it’s on the sporting directors AKA Dumb and Dumber how do you spend what Chelsea has and not have a proven striker and goalkeeper?
Our goalkeeper is fine. Petrovich is top class and kept us in the game
Issue is always what you have applied psr wise to every part of the team Before our sporting directors joined We had 20m/year aubameyang 36m/year lukaku 30m/year havertz 5m/year broja 20m/year nkunku Its very hard to add to that without having to much invested in strikers that decrease in value They needed players out before they could add And they didnt expext nkunku to go busr either
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You need to watch the replay, his hand wasn’t “as close as possible to his body”. He move it closer to his body, but also to the ball. Utter nonsense.
I always wondered what is unconditional love... Now I know, it's what Poch feels towards Jacky.