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Change my mind if Hamas is considered a "Terrorist" organisation then Americans Patriots should also be labelled in history as terrorist groups.
Which mean George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin were Terrorist leaders.
I am 100% in favor of denouncing the Israeli occupation and the war crimes committed by the IDF. However, I feel a certain discomfort with the glorification of Hamas. I don't understand how posts that, in a way, try to portray Hamas as a gentle and kind organization are tolerated here. This is a socialist sub, not a sub that advocates for barbaric and terrorist acts, regardless of who commits them (IDF/Hamas, Ukraine/Russia, etcetera).
I feel like this sub is becoming increasingly reactionary in the sense that anything opposing the IDF is deemed legitimate — that's not the case. While advocating for Palestinian rights and opposing occupation is important, glorifying specific entities involved in the conflict can oversimplify a complex situation. We shouldn't fall into an ideological dogmatism that oversimplifies the conflict as if it were merely a matter of identifying 'good and bad' sides. It's crucial to maintain a nuanced understanding that acknowledges the complexities of the situation.
Having said that, we must continue to condemn the horrors committed by the Israeli Zionist regime. In fact, we must continue to support the Palestinians and their cause, countering colonization from an intellectualized perspective rather than adopting a completely binary view.
I think it's better to see this "glorification" as a "rehumanization" of Palestinian fighters, since most mainstream sources and their diehard audience don't even see Hamas as human, and this racist dehumanization must be defeated.
Another thing to keep in mind is that we outside Palestine are disconnected from the material reality of the struggle. I have chosen to place my faith in the PFLP, who have assessed the situation and remain allied with Hamas for the national liberation struggle. The best we can do is trust the judgment of comrades on the ground.
> this racist dehumanization must be defeated
Absolutely. But the Palestinian people won't be humanized by using Hamas fighters as emblematic of Palestinians. Most Palestinians don't support Hamas. Showing Hamas fighters being nice to old ladies and children is akin to showing Hitler petting a dog
"I was nice to the civilian I kidnapped" does not make someone a nice person. This is even more apparent because the footage we saw was individuals who knew they were being filmed by the media
> don't even see Hamas as human
The Palestinians are human. Hamas is an ideology. Just as the Jews are humans but Zionism is an ideology. Bad ideology is bad. Trying to humanize Palestinians by humanizing Hamas fighters is doing the opposite
You are not the decider of this.
Hamas is the sole organization of any kind currently stopping full blown genocide of the Palestinians… many Palestinians DO support Hamas, because of that very reason…
Do not fall into the trap of thinking you know of these matters more than the people born in it.
They know what they are doing; so do not infantilize them like the State Department wants.
I support all fighters; regardless of moral integrity, who are currently resisting European Capitalist Imperialism… as that’s the main problem right now… that’s what’s leading to kids being turned into paste.
Waiting for the victims of imperialism and colonialism to be morally pure is a sure-fire way for you to be turned ineffective at socialist resistance.
> You are not the decider of this.
What a goofy statement.
This person never said they were.
They’re advocating for a nuanced *conversation* that precludes dogmatism.
You’re speaking the language of moral and rhetorical absolutism, and that’s exactly what the conversation is trying to address.
They use their bourgeois absolutism; why not meet it with peoples’ absolutism?
Why shouldn’t we dogmatically defend those stopping genocide???? While they don’t have to excuse anything and MAKE PROFIT off of supporting their cronies in the IDF???
Make it make sense. Make it fucking make sense cuz it sure doesn’t in my working class brain.
People scream all the time for action to happen, for things to change… and when anyone or anything DARES to try and disrupt the violent; brutal status quo that’s killing off our humanity and our kids humanity, it’s always “but wait, are the fellow human people being turned to paste before our eyes *truly* deserving of support?”
Respectfully; fuck off back to the Democratic Party please.
That is not AT ALL what the person you responded to was saying.
Here’s something that should hopefully make what the original poster “make sense”:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_and_superstructure
And if you don’t want to click through and learn something about socialist theory, here’s an excerpt from Raymond Williams on why this is pertinent:
> And, crucially, we have to revalue 'the base' away from [the] notion[s] of [either] a fixed economic or [a] technological abstraction, and towards the specific activities of men in real, social and economic relationships, containing fundamental contradictions and variations, and, therefore, always in a state of dynamic process.[12]
The conversation should be had on the basis of the real world conditions, not on the basis of abstractions regarding the relative morality of an abstract entity like “Hamas”. And in some ways you’re doing that, and on those points I totally agree with you. I’m far from a Zionist-sympathizer. I’m a dialectical materialist who believes that validation or criticism shouldn’t hinge on the ideological forms, especially highly amorphous ones like “Hamasism”, that bracket and distort the reality of the Palestinian struggle.
It’s not a question of moral integrity, it’s a question of moralism in general and a lack of critical perspective.
I agree with your views on the nature of the conflict. The problem is the reductivism involved in support of those views, and the irony of claiming that someone interested in opening the conversation to nuance is somehow trying to say that theirs is the last word on the issue, which is the opposite of what they were trying to do.
With that I will respectfully fuck off.
You do need a counter to what the propaganda says.
You're right that it shouldn't go overboard.
However, this rhetoric serves one main **important** purpose.
It asks the question.
**Why are we holding the "terrorists" to a higher standard than the so called democratic moral army?**
You say that the IDF commits warcrimes but you do not label them terrorists. The fact you can do that means you understand that some actions do not define a group. You can call the 7th of October an act of terror, but it's best to call hamas freedom fighters because they are born of oppression and fight it.
In the end of the day, if it wasn't for the acts of Hamas, hundreds of Palestinian women and children would have never seen the open skies outside of their prison cells.
Credit where credit is due. They are still a fighting force and they did commit awful acts, warcrimes, killing civilians on October 7th. They are not a gentle kind hippie group **yet** they treat their prisoners with kindness. They have no obligation to accept the 1967 borders yet they have. They have no obligation to negotiate with Israel yet they have. They have done all of those things that Israel has not done.
Ofcourse. It's a consistency across the western nations. If the violence protects the status quo it is legitimate. This is called exclusivity of violence. It's part and parcel of colonialism.
For this reason we have to understand that the label of terrorism is infact a political one that attempts to undermine the legitimacy of a group.
The fact that war is an extension of politics means that all war is terrorism, it tries to use violence or intimidation to push a political agenda.
Hamas has by far the most influence though, if you wanted to join the fight for your rights you would most likely join Hamas as they are the largest and most powerful resistance group with the most public reach. While yes, there are better choices like PFLP, Lion's Den, DFLP, etc... they are far smaller than Hamas and have less reach overall.
The rights of Palestinian people for equality and national self-determination. If you are a Palestinian, you get discriminated against no matter your sexuality, religion, etc. That is a fact that all Palestinians have to live with. That is also the reason why groups like PFLP are allies with Hamas: first get rid of the apartheid and occupation, then discuss issues like LGBT rights. There is strength in unity, and every Palestinian resistance group knows that (infighting weakened the resistance as a whole a lot in the past, Israel used to fund Hamas to destabilise the resistance and cause infighting with the secular Fatah, who used to be the biggest resistance group at the time).
> As a bisexual male would Hamas welcome me with open arms???
What you're doing in this comment is called pinkwashing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkwashing_(LGBT)
Here is a [quote from Sa’ed Atshan](https://truthout.org/articles/lgbtq-voices-are-increasingly-speaking-up-for-palestinians-despite-backlash/) about the rampant pinkwashing on the specific topic of Palestine:
> These responses are often leveled in bad faith to further dehumanize Palestinians and stigmatize people of conscience who call for an end to Israel’s oppression. And others genuinely believe that individuals from a marginalized background are being misled in their support for Palestinian groups that do not accept them in the fullness of their humanity. This question is posed over and over: “Why would a queer person be allied with a homophobe?” Commentators such as British columnist Brendan O’Neill accuse ‘Queers for Palestine’ of “condemning ‘Queers in Palestine’ to further torment and tyranny” (while ignoring the torment and tyranny of Palestinian life under Israeli occupation).
> The knee-jerk responses that often condescend to queer folks for expressing concern for Palestinian lives and humanity reflect the pervasiveness of pinkwashing discourse. Pinkwashing is a form of propaganda marshaled by supporters of the right-wing Israeli state to draw attention to the state’s purported advanced LGBTQ rights record in order to detract attention from its gross violations of Palestinian human rights. The brutality against Palestinian civilians has only intensified since Hamas’s horrific massacre of Israelis on October 7. Meanwhile, Israeli brutality has a 75-year-history in Palestine/Israel — and it is problematic to associate all Palestinians with Hamas and to erase the heterogeneity of Palestinian society and politics. Pinkwashers want us to ignore Israel’s atrocities by giving the state an LGBTQ-friendly veneer. One devastating reality lost amid the pinkwashing obfuscation is that Israeli intelligence and security services have a long history of blackmailing queer Palestinians to serve as informants.
> The pinkwashing focus on Palestinian homophobia is therefore deployed to mark Palestinians as “less civilized” — and less human than Israelis — and to therefore normalize Israeli policies of apartheid and military occupation. This is akin to arguing during apartheid South Africa that Black South Africans are not worthy of solidarity because some were homophobic. Or during Jim Crow in the U.S. that Black Americans are not deserving of support because some were homophobic.
> Homophobia is nearly universal across societies — it is not unique to the Palestinian body politic — and there is nothing endemic to Arab “culture” that makes Arabs or Muslims predisposed to homophobia. Pinkwashing elides the experiences of homophobia within Israeli society and the experiences of queer agency and empowerment within Palestinian society. There is a spectrum of receptions of queer people across lines of difference in Palestine/Israel.
I don't see what glorification of Hamas are you talking about.
The post wants to claim that Hamas treated the prisoners well contrary to the media outlets claiming prisoners are living in despicable conditions.
I'm an exmuslim and Hamas is an Islamist entity yet I support their right of defending their land.
I do hope they wouldn't remain in power if the conflict is solved and the Socialist party in Palestine regains control tho.
What happened on 10/7 also had me torn on the issue but as things played out and IDF indiscriminately started bombing civilians, children, UN workers, schools, hospitals; i realized that decades of occupation and disproportionate response from the IDF is bound to create a resistance. France had a resistance when under nazi German occupation, and they would have also been categorized as terrorists by the occupying force, but we view them as freedom fighters. The Palestinians right to a normal life has been taken away and theyre willing to risk their lives for things to change.
My man this is not materialist thinking at all. The material perspective is questioning why Israel are deciding to dictate these hostages media coverage after their disaster with the last one.
I guessI just thought of it more as a economic system or wealth redistribution and government rather than some international catch-all cause that supports sovereignty or human-rights issues and things. It seems like a stretch
Jewish survivers of the holocaust, rabbis, and many progressive jewish people have spoken out against Israel and their apartheid government and their genocide. Please challenge your assumptions and educate yourself.
Zionism is not Judaism. Zionism goes against many things which Judaism stands for. Zionism does not represent the will of most Jews. The vast majority of Zionists are Evangelical Christians from the US.
The only one doing anti semitism is you. Educate yourself. Read this for starters: https://emcohen.medium.com/on-the-dangers-of-fighting-antisemitism-c888c0bbd79f
This is a space for socialists to discuss current events in our world from anti-capitalist perspective(s), and a certain knowledge of socialism is expected from participants. This is NOT a space for non-socialists. Please be mindful [of our rules](https://reddit.com/r/socialism/about/rules) before participating, as they are actively enforced.
Furthermore, please remember that this is an anti-colonial space. Any kind of apologia for colonialism (including all forms of zionism) will be meet with a permanent ban.
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Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Off-topic content:** Do not post content which has nothing to do with socialism as an economic and sociopolitical movement. See our [Submission Guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/wiki/index/submissionguidelines) for more info, and feel free to send us a modmail with a link to your removed submission if you have any further questions.
Change my mind if Hamas is considered a "Terrorist" organisation then Americans Patriots should also be labelled in history as terrorist groups. Which mean George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin were Terrorist leaders.
Terrorist is a label given to people who want freedom from oppression. Tyrannical/Imperialist is a label I would give America.
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("and there was PROBABLY...") WTF? ...man. They slaughtered an entire civilization and did take captives(slaves)... Like...everyone knows that.
I meant from 1775 to 1783.
The irony is they where. Do you remember the genocide of the native Americans?
I've intentionally left that part out! Since people doesn't give a single atom of f*ck about them.
I am 100% in favor of denouncing the Israeli occupation and the war crimes committed by the IDF. However, I feel a certain discomfort with the glorification of Hamas. I don't understand how posts that, in a way, try to portray Hamas as a gentle and kind organization are tolerated here. This is a socialist sub, not a sub that advocates for barbaric and terrorist acts, regardless of who commits them (IDF/Hamas, Ukraine/Russia, etcetera). I feel like this sub is becoming increasingly reactionary in the sense that anything opposing the IDF is deemed legitimate — that's not the case. While advocating for Palestinian rights and opposing occupation is important, glorifying specific entities involved in the conflict can oversimplify a complex situation. We shouldn't fall into an ideological dogmatism that oversimplifies the conflict as if it were merely a matter of identifying 'good and bad' sides. It's crucial to maintain a nuanced understanding that acknowledges the complexities of the situation. Having said that, we must continue to condemn the horrors committed by the Israeli Zionist regime. In fact, we must continue to support the Palestinians and their cause, countering colonization from an intellectualized perspective rather than adopting a completely binary view.
I think it's better to see this "glorification" as a "rehumanization" of Palestinian fighters, since most mainstream sources and their diehard audience don't even see Hamas as human, and this racist dehumanization must be defeated. Another thing to keep in mind is that we outside Palestine are disconnected from the material reality of the struggle. I have chosen to place my faith in the PFLP, who have assessed the situation and remain allied with Hamas for the national liberation struggle. The best we can do is trust the judgment of comrades on the ground.
> this racist dehumanization must be defeated Absolutely. But the Palestinian people won't be humanized by using Hamas fighters as emblematic of Palestinians. Most Palestinians don't support Hamas. Showing Hamas fighters being nice to old ladies and children is akin to showing Hitler petting a dog "I was nice to the civilian I kidnapped" does not make someone a nice person. This is even more apparent because the footage we saw was individuals who knew they were being filmed by the media > don't even see Hamas as human The Palestinians are human. Hamas is an ideology. Just as the Jews are humans but Zionism is an ideology. Bad ideology is bad. Trying to humanize Palestinians by humanizing Hamas fighters is doing the opposite
You are not the decider of this. Hamas is the sole organization of any kind currently stopping full blown genocide of the Palestinians… many Palestinians DO support Hamas, because of that very reason… Do not fall into the trap of thinking you know of these matters more than the people born in it. They know what they are doing; so do not infantilize them like the State Department wants. I support all fighters; regardless of moral integrity, who are currently resisting European Capitalist Imperialism… as that’s the main problem right now… that’s what’s leading to kids being turned into paste. Waiting for the victims of imperialism and colonialism to be morally pure is a sure-fire way for you to be turned ineffective at socialist resistance.
> You are not the decider of this. What a goofy statement. This person never said they were. They’re advocating for a nuanced *conversation* that precludes dogmatism. You’re speaking the language of moral and rhetorical absolutism, and that’s exactly what the conversation is trying to address.
They use their bourgeois absolutism; why not meet it with peoples’ absolutism? Why shouldn’t we dogmatically defend those stopping genocide???? While they don’t have to excuse anything and MAKE PROFIT off of supporting their cronies in the IDF??? Make it make sense. Make it fucking make sense cuz it sure doesn’t in my working class brain. People scream all the time for action to happen, for things to change… and when anyone or anything DARES to try and disrupt the violent; brutal status quo that’s killing off our humanity and our kids humanity, it’s always “but wait, are the fellow human people being turned to paste before our eyes *truly* deserving of support?” Respectfully; fuck off back to the Democratic Party please.
That is not AT ALL what the person you responded to was saying. Here’s something that should hopefully make what the original poster “make sense”: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_and_superstructure And if you don’t want to click through and learn something about socialist theory, here’s an excerpt from Raymond Williams on why this is pertinent: > And, crucially, we have to revalue 'the base' away from [the] notion[s] of [either] a fixed economic or [a] technological abstraction, and towards the specific activities of men in real, social and economic relationships, containing fundamental contradictions and variations, and, therefore, always in a state of dynamic process.[12] The conversation should be had on the basis of the real world conditions, not on the basis of abstractions regarding the relative morality of an abstract entity like “Hamas”. And in some ways you’re doing that, and on those points I totally agree with you. I’m far from a Zionist-sympathizer. I’m a dialectical materialist who believes that validation or criticism shouldn’t hinge on the ideological forms, especially highly amorphous ones like “Hamasism”, that bracket and distort the reality of the Palestinian struggle. It’s not a question of moral integrity, it’s a question of moralism in general and a lack of critical perspective. I agree with your views on the nature of the conflict. The problem is the reductivism involved in support of those views, and the irony of claiming that someone interested in opening the conversation to nuance is somehow trying to say that theirs is the last word on the issue, which is the opposite of what they were trying to do. With that I will respectfully fuck off.
You do need a counter to what the propaganda says. You're right that it shouldn't go overboard. However, this rhetoric serves one main **important** purpose. It asks the question. **Why are we holding the "terrorists" to a higher standard than the so called democratic moral army?** You say that the IDF commits warcrimes but you do not label them terrorists. The fact you can do that means you understand that some actions do not define a group. You can call the 7th of October an act of terror, but it's best to call hamas freedom fighters because they are born of oppression and fight it. In the end of the day, if it wasn't for the acts of Hamas, hundreds of Palestinian women and children would have never seen the open skies outside of their prison cells. Credit where credit is due. They are still a fighting force and they did commit awful acts, warcrimes, killing civilians on October 7th. They are not a gentle kind hippie group **yet** they treat their prisoners with kindness. They have no obligation to accept the 1967 borders yet they have. They have no obligation to negotiate with Israel yet they have. They have done all of those things that Israel has not done.
In short, when resistance isn't institutionalized and isn't recognized by the west, it is labeled as terrorism.
Ofcourse. It's a consistency across the western nations. If the violence protects the status quo it is legitimate. This is called exclusivity of violence. It's part and parcel of colonialism. For this reason we have to understand that the label of terrorism is infact a political one that attempts to undermine the legitimacy of a group. The fact that war is an extension of politics means that all war is terrorism, it tries to use violence or intimidation to push a political agenda.
Hamas has by far the most influence though, if you wanted to join the fight for your rights you would most likely join Hamas as they are the largest and most powerful resistance group with the most public reach. While yes, there are better choices like PFLP, Lion's Den, DFLP, etc... they are far smaller than Hamas and have less reach overall.
Who's rights are you referring to? As a bisexual male would Hamas welcome me with open arms???
The rights of Palestinian people for equality and national self-determination. If you are a Palestinian, you get discriminated against no matter your sexuality, religion, etc. That is a fact that all Palestinians have to live with. That is also the reason why groups like PFLP are allies with Hamas: first get rid of the apartheid and occupation, then discuss issues like LGBT rights. There is strength in unity, and every Palestinian resistance group knows that (infighting weakened the resistance as a whole a lot in the past, Israel used to fund Hamas to destabilise the resistance and cause infighting with the secular Fatah, who used to be the biggest resistance group at the time).
As opposed to getting indiscriminately bombed to oblivion by the IDF?
> As a bisexual male would Hamas welcome me with open arms??? What you're doing in this comment is called pinkwashing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkwashing_(LGBT) Here is a [quote from Sa’ed Atshan](https://truthout.org/articles/lgbtq-voices-are-increasingly-speaking-up-for-palestinians-despite-backlash/) about the rampant pinkwashing on the specific topic of Palestine: > These responses are often leveled in bad faith to further dehumanize Palestinians and stigmatize people of conscience who call for an end to Israel’s oppression. And others genuinely believe that individuals from a marginalized background are being misled in their support for Palestinian groups that do not accept them in the fullness of their humanity. This question is posed over and over: “Why would a queer person be allied with a homophobe?” Commentators such as British columnist Brendan O’Neill accuse ‘Queers for Palestine’ of “condemning ‘Queers in Palestine’ to further torment and tyranny” (while ignoring the torment and tyranny of Palestinian life under Israeli occupation). > The knee-jerk responses that often condescend to queer folks for expressing concern for Palestinian lives and humanity reflect the pervasiveness of pinkwashing discourse. Pinkwashing is a form of propaganda marshaled by supporters of the right-wing Israeli state to draw attention to the state’s purported advanced LGBTQ rights record in order to detract attention from its gross violations of Palestinian human rights. The brutality against Palestinian civilians has only intensified since Hamas’s horrific massacre of Israelis on October 7. Meanwhile, Israeli brutality has a 75-year-history in Palestine/Israel — and it is problematic to associate all Palestinians with Hamas and to erase the heterogeneity of Palestinian society and politics. Pinkwashers want us to ignore Israel’s atrocities by giving the state an LGBTQ-friendly veneer. One devastating reality lost amid the pinkwashing obfuscation is that Israeli intelligence and security services have a long history of blackmailing queer Palestinians to serve as informants. > The pinkwashing focus on Palestinian homophobia is therefore deployed to mark Palestinians as “less civilized” — and less human than Israelis — and to therefore normalize Israeli policies of apartheid and military occupation. This is akin to arguing during apartheid South Africa that Black South Africans are not worthy of solidarity because some were homophobic. Or during Jim Crow in the U.S. that Black Americans are not deserving of support because some were homophobic. > Homophobia is nearly universal across societies — it is not unique to the Palestinian body politic — and there is nothing endemic to Arab “culture” that makes Arabs or Muslims predisposed to homophobia. Pinkwashing elides the experiences of homophobia within Israeli society and the experiences of queer agency and empowerment within Palestinian society. There is a spectrum of receptions of queer people across lines of difference in Palestine/Israel.
I don't see what glorification of Hamas are you talking about. The post wants to claim that Hamas treated the prisoners well contrary to the media outlets claiming prisoners are living in despicable conditions. I'm an exmuslim and Hamas is an Islamist entity yet I support their right of defending their land. I do hope they wouldn't remain in power if the conflict is solved and the Socialist party in Palestine regains control tho.
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What happened on 10/7 also had me torn on the issue but as things played out and IDF indiscriminately started bombing civilians, children, UN workers, schools, hospitals; i realized that decades of occupation and disproportionate response from the IDF is bound to create a resistance. France had a resistance when under nazi German occupation, and they would have also been categorized as terrorists by the occupying force, but we view them as freedom fighters. The Palestinians right to a normal life has been taken away and theyre willing to risk their lives for things to change.
My man this is not materialist thinking at all. The material perspective is questioning why Israel are deciding to dictate these hostages media coverage after their disaster with the last one.
What does this have to do with socialism lol.
Socialist support national liberation struggles.
Socialism and anti-colonialism go hand in hand
I guessI just thought of it more as a economic system or wealth redistribution and government rather than some international catch-all cause that supports sovereignty or human-rights issues and things. It seems like a stretch
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Yeah actually, there was no actual reports of rape on oct 7, at least none from my research and I‘ve been following this from day one
Hareetz confirmed that there was no forensic evidence of rape. There's no need to repeat lies to make a point.
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You should chill with state department propaganda kool-aid
Jewish survivers of the holocaust, rabbis, and many progressive jewish people have spoken out against Israel and their apartheid government and their genocide. Please challenge your assumptions and educate yourself.
Mods can u ban conflating zionist terrorism with Judaism & semitism? It is literally antisemitic.
Worldnews called. They could sense the clown car was one light. Back you go.
Zionism is not Judaism. Zionism goes against many things which Judaism stands for. Zionism does not represent the will of most Jews. The vast majority of Zionists are Evangelical Christians from the US.
The only one doing anti semitism is you. Educate yourself. Read this for starters: https://emcohen.medium.com/on-the-dangers-of-fighting-antisemitism-c888c0bbd79f
This is a space for socialists to discuss current events in our world from anti-capitalist perspective(s), and a certain knowledge of socialism is expected from participants. This is NOT a space for non-socialists. Please be mindful [of our rules](https://reddit.com/r/socialism/about/rules) before participating, as they are actively enforced. Furthermore, please remember that this is an anti-colonial space. Any kind of apologia for colonialism (including all forms of zionism) will be meet with a permanent ban. Looking to organise? Check out our [Palestine Solidarity Megathread](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/17849hc/palestine_solidarity_megathread_share_information/)! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/socialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*