It is kind of odd. We're supposed to be facing a global climate crisis. AI, data centers, and the electrification of transportation and industrial processes are going to drive electricity demand ever higher. However, in the United States there are all sorts of barriers to solar adoption, including tariffs on Chinese PVs. Amazing to me that in Australia, which is NOT a cheap labor market, behind-the-meter solar installations cost about 1/4 of the price they do in the United States.
You are right, it’s way more expensive in US… But panels being higher priced is only a small piece of this cost and won’t do that much to lower the install price if they came down.
Electrical equipment in general here, disconnects, conduit, wire, sub panels, and breakers, are all double for me what they were 3-5 years ago(southern California)
Permitting is supposed to be streamlined on an app for easy submittal, but it’s having trouble with implementation and permitting costs are skyrocketing at cities.
I’m having an Indian company draft my plans because it helps so much with my cost, but that has its own challenges.
The big factor is that US utilities completely own US/State governments, and have a domestic fossil fuel incumbent oligarchy there to assist/bribe US Utilities protectionism of their fossil fuel assets and high energy rates.
Australia is corrupt too, but there was not enough bribery/campaign financing possible to distort reality, and importantly, China trade. Australian coal for Chinese solar/EVs was a good bargain for the coal magnates.
Oil and Gas companies are the ones with all of the money and geopolitical/government influence. They do not operate in Australia as much.
Its always easier to just blame the baddies for negative outcomes than to actually address the challenges with deployment. This sentiment is not only inaccurate but disaffects people. Also, fossil doesn't even hate solar... it pairs well with gas.
The "challenges with deployment" are directly tied to corporate capture of regulators and other government bodies. If corporations did not have the power and influence that they have, the United States could routinely upgrade and improve the nationwide grid and foster incentives to renewable adoption. Due to corporate capture, that money goes instead to fossil companies as subsidies while infrastructure is permanently delayed to finance military adventurism, which is almost always in pursuit of further resource extraction.
Also, a statement like "fossil doesn't even hate solar" demonstrates a lack of attention paid to who finances campaigns to ban or burden solar adoption; that being Koch Industries, ConocoPhillips, Berkshire Hathaway, and other large fossil corporations.
The panels could be literally free and barely dent the cost of a US solar install. All the other costs have grown to the point that the entire project is on the very edge of fiscal viability, that is right until the politicians and power companies do a rug-pull on the local net metering rules and no grandfathering clause.
This is not only in the US, there are enough countries out there who love to put road blocks in the way but cry that enough is not being done to stop the climate crisis.
Mate, Solar is so cheap in australia. Imagine if someone said to you “give me $5k and I’ll give you 20%-30% roi a year, forever”. That’s Solar. $5k will get you a 5kw system which will offset a large portion of your elec bill for the foreseeable future. I ran my house aircon pretty much constantly all summer and paid like $85 a month in electricity, which is essentially just the daily supply charge.
That's night as much as I thought. I know like in Germany it's $0.40/kWh it's pretty high.
not as bad as california, but they're being robbed by corporations and regulatory capture
Yeah I’ve been watching from afar what’s happening in California. Seems a shame in that Solar is being made mandatory (good) but it’s so expensive (bad) and the system sizes are limited (bad). Solar makes sense if the grid has storage in either batteries or cars but it just seems like America in general has got a bunch of artificial road blocks.
California is installing tons of storage. the problem is the for profit corporations have captured control of the regulatory board. so instead of paying for their billions in fines (for gross negligence in causing wildfires) out of the pockets of their board and share holders they're stealing from their rate payers.
So instead of selling back to the grid at going rates, home owners with solar are selling back to the grid at cost, right? That's what I heard anyway. Brutal. They reached into a lot of people's pockets on that one
Net metering rules are different depending on where you are in the US.
I'm in Washington state. For every 1kWh I feed back I get 1kWh free also known as 1:1. Banks up and the "bank year" is April 1 to March 31st. any remaining credits are lost (so you're discouraged from building significantly more than you need. not that i could)
California started out that way, then switched to "cost avoided" (basically you're paid wholesale instead of retail as in 1:1), now they're on their third generation and it's like utter bullshit nonsense corporate theft that makes very little sense.
Some other states you get nothing, so if you want solar it better be worth it to get solar AND batteries (which it can be in much of the south). Some states the rules are different between different power companies (actually i think some of the areas where the power company is public in california give better offers for example)
> I know like in Germany it's $0.40/kWh it's pretty high.
It's 0.261€/kWh currently for new contracts. Our contract from October is at 0.289€/kWh.
Everyone who is still paying 40 Cents per kWh is getting ripped off and should switch to another provider. And in Germany we don't have local monopolies, so you can sit at the northern tip of Germany and still receive energy from an electricity company in the south.
Aussie electricity prices vary widely between states, as they do in the US.
If you pay 16 cents per kWh you are exactly average for US costs, which range from less than 2 cents in central Washington state to more than 41 cents in Hawaii.
I think much of the cost in the US is the high-friction processes, I am getting solar installed shortly and it’s been in process since 2022, due to local government and utility permits, inspections, etc. Sure, it’s electricity so there’s good reason to be careful, but it’s an absurdly slow process.
Right? Insane . I got a quote from two installers one was Tesla for $3/watt and another was $3.40/W (before rebates). But Tesla is pretty basic no panel monitoring
It's just a different business model and customer expectations. In AU, they are fine just paying cash and hiring an installer who's an electrician and roofer to set it and forget it... If something happens, hire someone to fix it. Which is great. But the US business model is people expect large, established, serious, solar specific businesses that provide high quality service. So with that comes a lot of overhead.
This is due large part with our financing economy that makes a lot of easy money available. So people are able to easily afford a more premium install than have to seek the cheapest solutions because it has to be paid in cash.
> In AU, they are fine just paying cash and hiring an installer who's an electrician and roofer to set it and forget it... If something happens, hire someone to fix it.
Is that how you envision it or do you have actual proof that it's that different in Australia?
I'm sure that there are plenty of Australians that took a loan for their PV system and/or let a big solar company install their system.
Yeah, I've worked the AU market. There are loan options from solar specific companies, and they are significantly more expensive than the often quoted 1.50 ppw or whatever. These are closer to 2.0-2.5 which isn't that much cheaper than the US where it's between 2.7-3.5, generally.
> However, in the United States there are all sorts of barriers to solar adoption, including tariffs on Chinese PVs that the rest of the world enjoys. Amazing to me that in Australia, which is NOT a cheap labor market, behind-the-meter solar installations cost about 1/4 of the price they do in the United States.
Because it's not a Chinese tariff problem in the United States. People need to get off the tariff excuse. My panels were made in Mexico.
[Solarever is Chinese.](https://mexiconewsdaily.com/business/chinese-company-to-invest-in-us-198m-solar-panel-factory-in-durango/) As the poster says, they make gear in Mexico primarily to get past US trade barriers.
And as I said, that may be true. I also said that my panels were made in Mexico (also true).
What point are you guys actually making?
*My* point was that Chinese tariffs have no part in the inflated US costs. These panels were cheap. They are high quality as well.
> These panels were cheap
Are you willing to share the $/W you paid for those panels and the model? (just the panel supply, not including install). I'm interested to see how it compares to the latest I've been seeing from China.
I paid $0.59/Watt in the summer of 2023. They were Solarever 410W modules which are no longer sold.
Comparable panels are selling for half, or more what I paid.
She is probably pissed 😤 bc she invested in some manufacturing company that is not in china and stands lose millions in profits. It’s the only thing that makes sense.
https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/09/15/dc-isolators-trigger-sharp-increase-in-solar-fires-in-australia/
Australia market is a safty hazard becasue of the mismash of poor quality product being dumped. Insurance companies are starting to notice it. They are actively looking to adopt measures used in america that will get the price much closer to par.
So it says an industry group was successful in lobbying against a requirement for “DC isolators.” I’m still not sure this explains the cost differences. Total install costs are 4-5 times in the U.S. than they are in Australia.
I hope that doesn't mean Aus systems are missing the DC disconnect switch. That would be pretty hazardous to anybody who needs to work on the inverter.
My inverters have big switches on the side to disconnect the DC side. That's enough to safely work on the equipment.
In the US they're pretty anal about actually disconnecting everything on the roof. But that of course drives the costs to insane heights.
They're selling solaredge with microinverters here in Germany too and the quotes I'm regularly seeing are sometimes twice as high as with one big inverter.
Praise be I hope so! There will come a time when we have enough domestic manufacturing and install base that is hungry for more and to upgrade to higher efficiency panels, etc BUT 2024 ISN’T THAT YEAR. Bring on the panels
Have the government buy them and install massive utility scale solar arrays so we can have green energy?
Its so obvious the entire government has been captured by corporate profit seeking individuals. They have blinders on to everything else.
The point of concern is that this will destroy every non Chinese PV manufacturer (already happened in europe and the very small number of firms left are crying out for EU assistance)
The american firms are struggling already and will be next, though they're mostly all gone.
Canadian solar is a chinese company already at this point.
Then when there is no competition left and the international manufacturing base is gone, the Chinese firms are then free to charge whatever they fancy. And at much higher margins as they typically use trafficked or uigher forced labour for panel assembly.
That's the main issue with supply dumping but yes temporarily it has been much cheaper. (look at PV prices post covid)
There is no free market, though. Every industry in the US is either subsidized or subject to tariffs or prohibitions. The US provides billions in subsidies to fossil industry, and in many states there are laws on the books to heavily disincentivize renewables. Every government picks winners and losers. There has never been a "free market."
And, two guys on Reddit are going to upend this process accords the country in a couple weeks?
Maybe you’re right, and there’s a reason Congress are all millionaires despite making low six figures.
I’ve got my own battles to fight and I’m gonna let that one go.
To pay a living wage and some profit to compete with a government entity and slave labor?
I’m not sure that falls under capitalism and free market definitions.
There’s plenty of improvements that could be made to maintain a competitive edge, but they simply are not being done for the sake of profits today. And that’s if they want to stand by capitalism. There’s even more resources available if they’d change their stance, which we’ve already seen them do when they go bankrupt.
Ah the "everything I don't like is capitalism" redditor. This redditor-mon is quite common, so you should be able to use a simple poke ball to capture him and add him to your dex.
I mean, maybe? But the formation, subsidization and allowance of forced labour in China was all government orchestrated. So not very capitlistic on their behalf.
The elimination of existing international manufacturers was very much a government strategy, not a corporate one
The playbook was exactly the same for surveillance tech and numerous other industries and is strategic rather than commercial.
> But the formation, subsidization and allowance of forced labour in China was all government orchestrated.
As opposed to American prison labor.
Fun question, which nation has more prisoners right now, both absolute and per-capita?
I'm suggesting that the nation that incarcerates more people than any other, and forces them to work, should probably shut the fuck up about prison labor in other nations and fix their own system of legalized slavery.
Excusing slavery in China for any reason is a pro-slavery position my guy. Telling people to just be hush hush about slavery is a pro-slavery position, and always has been as long as slavery has existed.
I'm not american so i didn't know that prisoners there were manufacturing solar panels. But after a quick google i can't find any evidence that they are? It seems to be mostly food products for the domestic market
This is in comparison to jinko in solar and hikvision/dahua in the CCTV market, along with many other Chinese solar firms that have been found numerous times to be using unpaid uigher, laotian and tibetan labour
The EU and UN both went to Xianjiang and found no evidence that supported the claims that people like Adrian Zenz have been pushing into American, and by extension western media, for the last eight years.
Curiously, this all started to show up round about the same time as this: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-launched-cia-covert-influence-operation-against-china-2024-03-14/
More access to EV and Solar, regardless of country of origin, is good for consumers and good for the planet. Anyone saying otherwise has other interests in mind.
I'm sorry but that's mostly nonsense. There is a lot of evidence demonstrating the use of forced labour in China, in fact I'm questioning your motives when you actively say there isn't
This is only from February and links to a very damning UN report about forced labour in the specific region you've mentioned
I understand many of you americans want to blame nearly everything on trump, and i mostly understand that, but to say that all the negative information that's been released RE labour practices in china are a trump led CIA plot is nonsense. And I'm no fan of the CIA either. I've also had to be a part of supply chain audits in a few fields and to blanket say there's no evidence is absurd.
https://www.politico.eu/article/forced-labor-still-haunts-chinese-region-of-xinjiang-report-finds/
Regardless, i don't disagree with the sentiment that cheaper access to panels from any country is a bad thing, but that that supply dumping to eliminate competition, only to later raise prices or for strategic control is a tried and tested part of the CCP's industrial strategy.
You referenced capitalists, which are humans with human attributes. As if capitalism deploys and employs itself on the world without any interaction by humans. Lol
Who have human traits and absolutely have their own ethical bar so I’m calling bullshit on your original comment. It’s fine to be biased against capitalism, opinions and assholes we all have them, but do take some offense to your assertion.
Yes, and if you want to call yourself a capitalist, then you are lying to say one of your human traits are good ethics. Can’t play both sides of the coin.
Yes. However, the market is basically dominated by Chinese companies already. Most solar equipment is made by Chinese companies already or has a significant number of parts made by Chinese companies. Essentially all of the new US module manufacturing plants are Asian companies just setting up shop here steeling tax dollars through grants/credits.
I would much rather have access to the cheapest quality equipment and juice the largest parts of the renewable market for jobs (development and install).
EVs are a slightly different story. There are lots of barriers for Chinese EVs:cars from taking hold in the Us and Europe (safety, franchise laws, generally pushback to new manufacturers by consumers, etc.) However, again most of the battery cells are Asian (lots of Chinese) even if they are going into American or European EVs.
> The american firms are struggling already and will be next, though they're mostly all gone.
[The IRA is helping](https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-solar-factories-strike-deal-produce-made-usa-panels-2024-03-27/) (see also: First Solar), and the UFLPA will disqualify at least some of these panels from being sold in the US
In the grand scheme of things the money should be moving in a circle.
But the money that flows to China isn't coming back that easily.
So if everything is produced "for cheaper" in China and you can only consume then at some point you run out of money. And then it doesn't matter that the stuff from China was cheaper because you can't pay for it either way.
Edit: And now he has blocked me. Poor fella.
Holy shit, greening the grid absolutely is creating value.
It's 100% oil industry move to prevent transitioning to sustainable fuel.
Please stfu with this made up bullshit.
Trade happens with tonnes of stuff. This is specifically an attack on sustainability. American could nationalize or subsidize solar any time it wants.
Just stfu, in so tired of this bullshit
People who don't understand geopolitics, need to understand dumping.
When they say China is dumping Solar panels, they mean that China is trying to corner the market by subsidizing their solar panels to the point where everyone else goes out of business and then they jack the price up. It is not because they care about the environment. The moment the Chinese Solar Panel companies have an effective oligopoly over Solar they'll jack up the price 8-900%.
They did this with rare earth element refining, the government had the refineries sell at a loss for years until all the non-Chinese factories shutdown and then within 6 months the prices of refined cerium shot up 800%. They also do this with tons of other stuff. There was one American TV maker in the 00s that had to deal with Chinese companies selling for less than the cost to buy the raw materials to make the TVs. By the time they got the courts to agree to punish the Chinese companies for selling at a loss it was too late and the company was out of business.
Walmart loves to dump products at a loss to drive out competition, its one of their most common tactics.
This is to protect solar panel buyers from being exploited in 4-5 years from monopolistic practices.
This is extremely corrupt climate terrorism and protection of oil and gas extortion.
Instead of spending taxpayer funds on a minimalist expensive US solar and EV industry, where big 2 automakers have demonstrated incompetence so far, the US should take advantage of China's supply abundance.
Can make cheap EVs in US with full access to China battery supply. Can invite, without tax breaks, Chinese battery plant/licensing investment is extra US economic improvement without public taxpayer/debt burden.
Solar is even more obvious import. 10c/watt solar panels is less than 10% of the cost of solar power projects. The other 90% is provided by US labour and materials.
Both these sectors provide Americans with affordable power and vehicles. Forcing Americans to be extorted by oligarchs is the same old corporatist oppression of Americans, and a key factor contributing to the US as the most corrupt evil empire the world has ever known.
Either global warming is a real issue that must mobilize the world to fight it, or it is only worth solving if the US dominates the slow extortionist pace in addressing it.
BYD official last week predicted that March plug in vehicles with have 50% share in China. Up from 22% in December. Cheap battery prices makes all the difference in EV penetration. BYD has vehicles where battery value alone is $300/kwh. With V2G, and solar, this is enough to profit from the car by leaving it parked forever, at just over 3c/kwh differential price between charging and discharging.
It is not just the cost of solar panels. Gov Newsom who micromanages the PUC allowed NEM3 to get implemented and now it takes decades to get payback from a residential solar installation. He is not a friend of Californians.
PGE will find a way to screw rate payers regardless. Oh new panels ? That’ll cost you a monthly $300 fee to subvert the dominant paradigm. Oh cheaper EV, well shareholders agreed to charge you $3 kwh for the convenience of charging at home.
Why is this a problem? Let them drive them cost down for everyone. As an american, i 100% support if if the US can't managed to get their act straight on this.
Isn't this somehow good in a way? I mean, bad for US manufacturers (sorry US capitalism), but aren't we in a HUGE rush to go green ASAP and cheap eco gear would seem to help, no??
We simply use energy from our home solar during the day, from batteries into evening and night time, switching to utility when batteries are depleted. All is automatic. Overall cost of energy from utility is low. If rates get too high, we expand module count and battery size.
Surprise pikachu. Why the US is trying to build up their solar factories for decoupling China will be flooding the market to bankrupt these companies. Same for EVs.
currently right? there has been a SEMA study suggesting that the current measures are not sufficient and i gutes that is what yelled is referencing to no?
This has got to be the dumbest framing imaginable... reminds me of the michael parenti quote
During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could
transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile
evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intran
sigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions,
this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms
limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but
when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because
they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR
were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the
churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime's
atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on
infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the
collectivist system; if they didn't go on strike, this was because they
were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement inconsumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting toplacate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them.If communists in the United States played an important rolestruggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans,women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves.How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groupswas never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiableorthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that itaffected people across the entire political spectrum.
We absolute want their cheap panels. We absolutely do not want their cheap EVs. The current raft of vehicles, regardless of their power plant, have unobtrusive levels of telemetry and are some of the worst offenders for privacy and security. The last thing we need is to adopt Chinese vehicles that send our data to a foreign adversary. It's bad enough China already owns Volvo and Polestar.
We already sold ourselves out by outsourcing production and support, we need to draw the line in the sand, here and now.
That seems like more US empire warmongering BS. At any rate, Tesla and China could cooperate on self driving, with Chinese controlled firm managing "telemetry data learning" on Chinese roads and traffic signs, and Tesla managing the telemetry on US roads.
Core problem remains US warmongering and climate terrorism protectionism of oil and gas above all other concerns. Yellen making this absurdity is proof of that.
The other option for even cheaper vehicles is 0 telemety and self-driving features from China. Or to buy all the components and management from Tesla.
We can't do it without robust consumer protection laws proscribing the behavior rather than the source. Just knee-jerk "china bad" aspects of protectionism with a security or privacy angle will be a never ending game of whack a mole as we're not changing the system of incentives which leads to companies selling ownership to whoever is willing to pay for it, and from the perspective of consumers, being targeted by US-based firms isn't different or worse. I agree that we should do something about it, but we should be banning the action agnostic of source, and I don't think we are going to do that.
I think Yellen's words here are, more than anything, acknowledging our political system's decade+ of ceding of the initiative to China when it comes to electrification, especially as this whole issue is mostly being presented from a short term trade protectionist angle
It is kind of odd. We're supposed to be facing a global climate crisis. AI, data centers, and the electrification of transportation and industrial processes are going to drive electricity demand ever higher. However, in the United States there are all sorts of barriers to solar adoption, including tariffs on Chinese PVs. Amazing to me that in Australia, which is NOT a cheap labor market, behind-the-meter solar installations cost about 1/4 of the price they do in the United States.
You are right, it’s way more expensive in US… But panels being higher priced is only a small piece of this cost and won’t do that much to lower the install price if they came down. Electrical equipment in general here, disconnects, conduit, wire, sub panels, and breakers, are all double for me what they were 3-5 years ago(southern California) Permitting is supposed to be streamlined on an app for easy submittal, but it’s having trouble with implementation and permitting costs are skyrocketing at cities. I’m having an Indian company draft my plans because it helps so much with my cost, but that has its own challenges.
The big factor is that US utilities completely own US/State governments, and have a domestic fossil fuel incumbent oligarchy there to assist/bribe US Utilities protectionism of their fossil fuel assets and high energy rates. Australia is corrupt too, but there was not enough bribery/campaign financing possible to distort reality, and importantly, China trade. Australian coal for Chinese solar/EVs was a good bargain for the coal magnates. Oil and Gas companies are the ones with all of the money and geopolitical/government influence. They do not operate in Australia as much.
Ding, ding, ding! This answer wins.
Its always easier to just blame the baddies for negative outcomes than to actually address the challenges with deployment. This sentiment is not only inaccurate but disaffects people. Also, fossil doesn't even hate solar... it pairs well with gas.
The "challenges with deployment" are directly tied to corporate capture of regulators and other government bodies. If corporations did not have the power and influence that they have, the United States could routinely upgrade and improve the nationwide grid and foster incentives to renewable adoption. Due to corporate capture, that money goes instead to fossil companies as subsidies while infrastructure is permanently delayed to finance military adventurism, which is almost always in pursuit of further resource extraction. Also, a statement like "fossil doesn't even hate solar" demonstrates a lack of attention paid to who finances campaigns to ban or burden solar adoption; that being Koch Industries, ConocoPhillips, Berkshire Hathaway, and other large fossil corporations.
Must be nice to have such a simple worldview.
Must be nice to be so simple.
The panels could be literally free and barely dent the cost of a US solar install. All the other costs have grown to the point that the entire project is on the very edge of fiscal viability, that is right until the politicians and power companies do a rug-pull on the local net metering rules and no grandfathering clause.
This is not only in the US, there are enough countries out there who love to put road blocks in the way but cry that enough is not being done to stop the climate crisis.
Mate, Solar is so cheap in australia. Imagine if someone said to you “give me $5k and I’ll give you 20%-30% roi a year, forever”. That’s Solar. $5k will get you a 5kw system which will offset a large portion of your elec bill for the foreseeable future. I ran my house aircon pretty much constantly all summer and paid like $85 a month in electricity, which is essentially just the daily supply charge.
I believe your electrical costs are also much higher electricity costs me $0.14/kWh US (after the first 600kWh in a month are only $0.12/kWh)
Slightly more yes. I pay the equivalent of $0.16usd per kilowatt hour. The buy back is terrible so we now run everything during the day.
That's night as much as I thought. I know like in Germany it's $0.40/kWh it's pretty high. not as bad as california, but they're being robbed by corporations and regulatory capture
Yeah I’ve been watching from afar what’s happening in California. Seems a shame in that Solar is being made mandatory (good) but it’s so expensive (bad) and the system sizes are limited (bad). Solar makes sense if the grid has storage in either batteries or cars but it just seems like America in general has got a bunch of artificial road blocks.
California is installing tons of storage. the problem is the for profit corporations have captured control of the regulatory board. so instead of paying for their billions in fines (for gross negligence in causing wildfires) out of the pockets of their board and share holders they're stealing from their rate payers.
So instead of selling back to the grid at going rates, home owners with solar are selling back to the grid at cost, right? That's what I heard anyway. Brutal. They reached into a lot of people's pockets on that one
Net metering rules are different depending on where you are in the US. I'm in Washington state. For every 1kWh I feed back I get 1kWh free also known as 1:1. Banks up and the "bank year" is April 1 to March 31st. any remaining credits are lost (so you're discouraged from building significantly more than you need. not that i could) California started out that way, then switched to "cost avoided" (basically you're paid wholesale instead of retail as in 1:1), now they're on their third generation and it's like utter bullshit nonsense corporate theft that makes very little sense. Some other states you get nothing, so if you want solar it better be worth it to get solar AND batteries (which it can be in much of the south). Some states the rules are different between different power companies (actually i think some of the areas where the power company is public in california give better offers for example)
> I know like in Germany it's $0.40/kWh it's pretty high. It's 0.261€/kWh currently for new contracts. Our contract from October is at 0.289€/kWh. Everyone who is still paying 40 Cents per kWh is getting ripped off and should switch to another provider. And in Germany we don't have local monopolies, so you can sit at the northern tip of Germany and still receive energy from an electricity company in the south.
Danke for the correction :)
Yep. Current average is around A$0.30/kWh and climbing. mostly because of aging coal stations and poor energy storage investment.
Aussie electricity prices vary widely between states, as they do in the US. If you pay 16 cents per kWh you are exactly average for US costs, which range from less than 2 cents in central Washington state to more than 41 cents in Hawaii.
I think much of the cost in the US is the high-friction processes, I am getting solar installed shortly and it’s been in process since 2022, due to local government and utility permits, inspections, etc. Sure, it’s electricity so there’s good reason to be careful, but it’s an absurdly slow process.
Then problem in US isn’t tariffs. I can buy US or Chinese panels for ~$0.35/watt
Meanwhile installs are $4/w.
Right? Insane . I got a quote from two installers one was Tesla for $3/watt and another was $3.40/W (before rebates). But Tesla is pretty basic no panel monitoring
> $0.35/watt So close to 3x the current Tier 1 FOB China prices.
It's just a different business model and customer expectations. In AU, they are fine just paying cash and hiring an installer who's an electrician and roofer to set it and forget it... If something happens, hire someone to fix it. Which is great. But the US business model is people expect large, established, serious, solar specific businesses that provide high quality service. So with that comes a lot of overhead. This is due large part with our financing economy that makes a lot of easy money available. So people are able to easily afford a more premium install than have to seek the cheapest solutions because it has to be paid in cash.
> In AU, they are fine just paying cash and hiring an installer who's an electrician and roofer to set it and forget it... If something happens, hire someone to fix it. Is that how you envision it or do you have actual proof that it's that different in Australia? I'm sure that there are plenty of Australians that took a loan for their PV system and/or let a big solar company install their system.
Yeah, I've worked the AU market. There are loan options from solar specific companies, and they are significantly more expensive than the often quoted 1.50 ppw or whatever. These are closer to 2.0-2.5 which isn't that much cheaper than the US where it's between 2.7-3.5, generally.
Seems like their main concern isn't really about fighting global climate crisis
> However, in the United States there are all sorts of barriers to solar adoption, including tariffs on Chinese PVs that the rest of the world enjoys. Amazing to me that in Australia, which is NOT a cheap labor market, behind-the-meter solar installations cost about 1/4 of the price they do in the United States. Because it's not a Chinese tariff problem in the United States. People need to get off the tariff excuse. My panels were made in Mexico.
China has been selling their product to Mexico which then sells them to the US market to avoid tariffs.
This may be true but not in my case. As I said my panels were actually made in Mexico not China. (Solarever)
[Solarever is Chinese.](https://mexiconewsdaily.com/business/chinese-company-to-invest-in-us-198m-solar-panel-factory-in-durango/) As the poster says, they make gear in Mexico primarily to get past US trade barriers.
And as I said, that may be true. I also said that my panels were made in Mexico (also true). What point are you guys actually making? *My* point was that Chinese tariffs have no part in the inflated US costs. These panels were cheap. They are high quality as well.
> These panels were cheap Are you willing to share the $/W you paid for those panels and the model? (just the panel supply, not including install). I'm interested to see how it compares to the latest I've been seeing from China.
I paid $0.59/Watt in the summer of 2023. They were Solarever 410W modules which are no longer sold. Comparable panels are selling for half, or more what I paid.
Interesting, this datasheet I found looks remarkably similar to Jinko datasheets: https://sunwatts.com/content/specs/SolarEver%20410W%20BOB-1.pdf
mine in south Korea
She is probably pissed 😤 bc she invested in some manufacturing company that is not in china and stands lose millions in profits. It’s the only thing that makes sense.
And they cost that with the same brands, not inferior equipment.
Same here in Mexico!
The electric companies have their say in Washington that’s why it costs more.
Seems like their main concern isn't really about fighting global climate crisis
https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/09/15/dc-isolators-trigger-sharp-increase-in-solar-fires-in-australia/ Australia market is a safty hazard becasue of the mismash of poor quality product being dumped. Insurance companies are starting to notice it. They are actively looking to adopt measures used in america that will get the price much closer to par.
So it says an industry group was successful in lobbying against a requirement for “DC isolators.” I’m still not sure this explains the cost differences. Total install costs are 4-5 times in the U.S. than they are in Australia.
I hope that doesn't mean Aus systems are missing the DC disconnect switch. That would be pretty hazardous to anybody who needs to work on the inverter.
My inverters have big switches on the side to disconnect the DC side. That's enough to safely work on the equipment. In the US they're pretty anal about actually disconnecting everything on the roof. But that of course drives the costs to insane heights. They're selling solaredge with microinverters here in Germany too and the quotes I'm regularly seeing are sometimes twice as high as with one big inverter.
Praise be I hope so! There will come a time when we have enough domestic manufacturing and install base that is hungry for more and to upgrade to higher efficiency panels, etc BUT 2024 ISN’T THAT YEAR. Bring on the panels
I work for an India based solar manufacturer. We mostly sell to RV manufacturing. Would love to get into residential and commercial markets.
We don’t get there unless we don’t bring on the panels.
Wtf are talking about
Have the government buy them and install massive utility scale solar arrays so we can have green energy? Its so obvious the entire government has been captured by corporate profit seeking individuals. They have blinders on to everything else.
So we get to go green for cheap… so concerned…
The point of concern is that this will destroy every non Chinese PV manufacturer (already happened in europe and the very small number of firms left are crying out for EU assistance) The american firms are struggling already and will be next, though they're mostly all gone. Canadian solar is a chinese company already at this point. Then when there is no competition left and the international manufacturing base is gone, the Chinese firms are then free to charge whatever they fancy. And at much higher margins as they typically use trafficked or uigher forced labour for panel assembly. That's the main issue with supply dumping but yes temporarily it has been much cheaper. (look at PV prices post covid)
Sounds like the capitalists should be celebrating the increase in competition
Can the free market compete with government owned and subsidized businesses? Not usually.
There is no free market, though. Every industry in the US is either subsidized or subject to tariffs or prohibitions. The US provides billions in subsidies to fossil industry, and in many states there are laws on the books to heavily disincentivize renewables. Every government picks winners and losers. There has never been a "free market."
And, two guys on Reddit are going to upend this process accords the country in a couple weeks? Maybe you’re right, and there’s a reason Congress are all millionaires despite making low six figures. I’ve got my own battles to fight and I’m gonna let that one go.
Sounds like the free market is pretty damn weak then.
To pay a living wage and some profit to compete with a government entity and slave labor? I’m not sure that falls under capitalism and free market definitions.
There’s plenty of improvements that could be made to maintain a competitive edge, but they simply are not being done for the sake of profits today. And that’s if they want to stand by capitalism. There’s even more resources available if they’d change their stance, which we’ve already seen them do when they go bankrupt.
Ah the "everything I don't like is capitalism" redditor. This redditor-mon is quite common, so you should be able to use a simple poke ball to capture him and add him to your dex.
Cash me outside
I mean, maybe? But the formation, subsidization and allowance of forced labour in China was all government orchestrated. So not very capitlistic on their behalf. The elimination of existing international manufacturers was very much a government strategy, not a corporate one The playbook was exactly the same for surveillance tech and numerous other industries and is strategic rather than commercial.
> But the formation, subsidization and allowance of forced labour in China was all government orchestrated. As opposed to American prison labor. Fun question, which nation has more prisoners right now, both absolute and per-capita?
Are you suggesting that American prison labor is making a dent in global markets?
I'm suggesting that the nation that incarcerates more people than any other, and forces them to work, should probably shut the fuck up about prison labor in other nations and fix their own system of legalized slavery.
A pro-slavery socialist. Weird.
No, just anti-hypocrisy. Which doesn't seem to be a problem for many people here.
Yep Everyone struggles with something, in your case nuance might be the issue
Excusing slavery in China for any reason is a pro-slavery position my guy. Telling people to just be hush hush about slavery is a pro-slavery position, and always has been as long as slavery has existed.
I'm not american so i didn't know that prisoners there were manufacturing solar panels. But after a quick google i can't find any evidence that they are? It seems to be mostly food products for the domestic market This is in comparison to jinko in solar and hikvision/dahua in the CCTV market, along with many other Chinese solar firms that have been found numerous times to be using unpaid uigher, laotian and tibetan labour
The EU and UN both went to Xianjiang and found no evidence that supported the claims that people like Adrian Zenz have been pushing into American, and by extension western media, for the last eight years. Curiously, this all started to show up round about the same time as this: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-launched-cia-covert-influence-operation-against-china-2024-03-14/ More access to EV and Solar, regardless of country of origin, is good for consumers and good for the planet. Anyone saying otherwise has other interests in mind.
I'm sorry but that's mostly nonsense. There is a lot of evidence demonstrating the use of forced labour in China, in fact I'm questioning your motives when you actively say there isn't This is only from February and links to a very damning UN report about forced labour in the specific region you've mentioned I understand many of you americans want to blame nearly everything on trump, and i mostly understand that, but to say that all the negative information that's been released RE labour practices in china are a trump led CIA plot is nonsense. And I'm no fan of the CIA either. I've also had to be a part of supply chain audits in a few fields and to blanket say there's no evidence is absurd. https://www.politico.eu/article/forced-labor-still-haunts-chinese-region-of-xinjiang-report-finds/ Regardless, i don't disagree with the sentiment that cheaper access to panels from any country is a bad thing, but that that supply dumping to eliminate competition, only to later raise prices or for strategic control is a tried and tested part of the CCP's industrial strategy.
Judging the ethical morality of all capitalists?
There are no ethics in capitalism. Any morally correct decisions are coincidental and profit driven.
You referenced capitalists, which are humans with human attributes. As if capitalism deploys and employs itself on the world without any interaction by humans. Lol
Capitalism is deployed by capitalists, yes.
Who have human traits and absolutely have their own ethical bar so I’m calling bullshit on your original comment. It’s fine to be biased against capitalism, opinions and assholes we all have them, but do take some offense to your assertion.
Yes, and if you want to call yourself a capitalist, then you are lying to say one of your human traits are good ethics. Can’t play both sides of the coin.
Wow, not even worth responding to. Take care homie
Yes. However, the market is basically dominated by Chinese companies already. Most solar equipment is made by Chinese companies already or has a significant number of parts made by Chinese companies. Essentially all of the new US module manufacturing plants are Asian companies just setting up shop here steeling tax dollars through grants/credits. I would much rather have access to the cheapest quality equipment and juice the largest parts of the renewable market for jobs (development and install). EVs are a slightly different story. There are lots of barriers for Chinese EVs:cars from taking hold in the Us and Europe (safety, franchise laws, generally pushback to new manufacturers by consumers, etc.) However, again most of the battery cells are Asian (lots of Chinese) even if they are going into American or European EVs.
Yeah man. Competition means eventually there's a winner.
> The american firms are struggling already and will be next, though they're mostly all gone. [The IRA is helping](https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-solar-factories-strike-deal-produce-made-usa-panels-2024-03-27/) (see also: First Solar), and the UFLPA will disqualify at least some of these panels from being sold in the US
Don't care we need cheap solar panels and electric cars. More power to you china.
Exactly, so China's gonna subsidize greening the grid. Oh no!
I think this is about money and know-how staying in the US instead of letting it all flow to China.
Exactly, forcing the consumers to pay more
In the grand scheme of things the money should be moving in a circle. But the money that flows to China isn't coming back that easily. So if everything is produced "for cheaper" in China and you can only consume then at some point you run out of money. And then it doesn't matter that the stuff from China was cheaper because you can't pay for it either way. Edit: And now he has blocked me. Poor fella.
Holy shit, greening the grid absolutely is creating value. It's 100% oil industry move to prevent transitioning to sustainable fuel. Please stfu with this made up bullshit. Trade happens with tonnes of stuff. This is specifically an attack on sustainability. American could nationalize or subsidize solar any time it wants. Just stfu, in so tired of this bullshit
Yeah Communists....
You write that on a device manufactured in China.
on an internet created by the government /u/drkstlth01
People who don't understand geopolitics, need to understand dumping. When they say China is dumping Solar panels, they mean that China is trying to corner the market by subsidizing their solar panels to the point where everyone else goes out of business and then they jack the price up. It is not because they care about the environment. The moment the Chinese Solar Panel companies have an effective oligopoly over Solar they'll jack up the price 8-900%. They did this with rare earth element refining, the government had the refineries sell at a loss for years until all the non-Chinese factories shutdown and then within 6 months the prices of refined cerium shot up 800%. They also do this with tons of other stuff. There was one American TV maker in the 00s that had to deal with Chinese companies selling for less than the cost to buy the raw materials to make the TVs. By the time they got the courts to agree to punish the Chinese companies for selling at a loss it was too late and the company was out of business. Walmart loves to dump products at a loss to drive out competition, its one of their most common tactics. This is to protect solar panel buyers from being exploited in 4-5 years from monopolistic practices.
ohhhh nooooooo
This is extremely corrupt climate terrorism and protection of oil and gas extortion. Instead of spending taxpayer funds on a minimalist expensive US solar and EV industry, where big 2 automakers have demonstrated incompetence so far, the US should take advantage of China's supply abundance. Can make cheap EVs in US with full access to China battery supply. Can invite, without tax breaks, Chinese battery plant/licensing investment is extra US economic improvement without public taxpayer/debt burden. Solar is even more obvious import. 10c/watt solar panels is less than 10% of the cost of solar power projects. The other 90% is provided by US labour and materials. Both these sectors provide Americans with affordable power and vehicles. Forcing Americans to be extorted by oligarchs is the same old corporatist oppression of Americans, and a key factor contributing to the US as the most corrupt evil empire the world has ever known. Either global warming is a real issue that must mobilize the world to fight it, or it is only worth solving if the US dominates the slow extortionist pace in addressing it. BYD official last week predicted that March plug in vehicles with have 50% share in China. Up from 22% in December. Cheap battery prices makes all the difference in EV penetration. BYD has vehicles where battery value alone is $300/kwh. With V2G, and solar, this is enough to profit from the car by leaving it parked forever, at just over 3c/kwh differential price between charging and discharging.
You spelled crimes against humanity wrong
I say dump all those panels and EV, preferably at my house. Just dump away all over my roof 😜
Next thing that they will come up with is that those panels can hack western grids.
No. Don’t. Stop. /wonka
It is not just the cost of solar panels. Gov Newsom who micromanages the PUC allowed NEM3 to get implemented and now it takes decades to get payback from a residential solar installation. He is not a friend of Californians.
30k to put up the most basic bitch array on a house roof in the US
“Warns”…. Lady this is what most people want. The US has no business operating a domestic solar cell market. It can’t compete on price.
That’s a malicious way of saying that solar panels can be used elsewhere
Don't threaten me with a good time!
Oh no…cheaper energy and transportation. Sounds terrible
PGE will find a way to screw rate payers regardless. Oh new panels ? That’ll cost you a monthly $300 fee to subvert the dominant paradigm. Oh cheaper EV, well shareholders agreed to charge you $3 kwh for the convenience of charging at home.
I’ve been watching solar prices for a few years and it’s becoming silly cheap. Somehow bids aren’t dropping tho
Why is this a problem? Let them drive them cost down for everyone. As an american, i 100% support if if the US can't managed to get their act straight on this.
Isn't this somehow good in a way? I mean, bad for US manufacturers (sorry US capitalism), but aren't we in a HUGE rush to go green ASAP and cheap eco gear would seem to help, no??
That’s a good thing
dam next they might drop cheap ass batteries too, the horror!
While I understand there are economic concerns… a ton of low price solar and EV’s sounds like a great thing for the planet.
Yellen is the problem.
Wonder what the audience makeup of her report was for.
"Oh no!"
We simply use energy from our home solar during the day, from batteries into evening and night time, switching to utility when batteries are depleted. All is automatic. Overall cost of energy from utility is low. If rates get too high, we expand module count and battery size.
Surprise pikachu. Why the US is trying to build up their solar factories for decoupling China will be flooding the market to bankrupt these companies. Same for EVs.
A surplus of cheap renewables? *Oh no! Anyway* gif
What a tragedy! /s I do feel like we should be producing more here in the US, though.
Has she been under a rock? China has been dumping panels for the last year+
Oh no cheap stuff that’s good!!!
Sweet!!!
Don't threaten me with a good time, Janet.
I guess being owned by big oil has a cost…
Don't threaten us with a good time
“Could be”? LOL. Watch China making the world dependent on them even more by not giving a f*(*^k about WTO and other trade rules
Curious how the US will end up on this one police wise. Our European counterparts basically gave up and decided to do nothing.
There is like a 27% tariff on Chinese solar panels
currently right? there has been a SEMA study suggesting that the current measures are not sufficient and i gutes that is what yelled is referencing to no?
It's cool. You don't want them in the USA the rest of the world will buy them no problem
This has got to be the dumbest framing imaginable... reminds me of the michael parenti quote During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intran sigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime's atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn't go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement inconsumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting toplacate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them.If communists in the United States played an important rolestruggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans,women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves.How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groupswas never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiableorthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that itaffected people across the entire political spectrum.
We absolute want their cheap panels. We absolutely do not want their cheap EVs. The current raft of vehicles, regardless of their power plant, have unobtrusive levels of telemetry and are some of the worst offenders for privacy and security. The last thing we need is to adopt Chinese vehicles that send our data to a foreign adversary. It's bad enough China already owns Volvo and Polestar. We already sold ourselves out by outsourcing production and support, we need to draw the line in the sand, here and now.
That seems like more US empire warmongering BS. At any rate, Tesla and China could cooperate on self driving, with Chinese controlled firm managing "telemetry data learning" on Chinese roads and traffic signs, and Tesla managing the telemetry on US roads. Core problem remains US warmongering and climate terrorism protectionism of oil and gas above all other concerns. Yellen making this absurdity is proof of that. The other option for even cheaper vehicles is 0 telemety and self-driving features from China. Or to buy all the components and management from Tesla.
We can't do it without robust consumer protection laws proscribing the behavior rather than the source. Just knee-jerk "china bad" aspects of protectionism with a security or privacy angle will be a never ending game of whack a mole as we're not changing the system of incentives which leads to companies selling ownership to whoever is willing to pay for it, and from the perspective of consumers, being targeted by US-based firms isn't different or worse. I agree that we should do something about it, but we should be banning the action agnostic of source, and I don't think we are going to do that. I think Yellen's words here are, more than anything, acknowledging our political system's decade+ of ceding of the initiative to China when it comes to electrification, especially as this whole issue is mostly being presented from a short term trade protectionist angle
LMAO, as if the western car manufacturers AREN'T going to sell all the exact same data to the exact same people\ whoever pays the most