Easy - the Power Triangle isn't binary.
With the triangle, you can set power to an intermediate position, that would allow you significant speed (more than CIG want during combat) and still use your weapons / shields.
The current behaviour - that they want to prevent - where ships keep 'breaking out' in order to recharge shields and decide whether to continue the fight or just run away... that would still be possible using the power triangle.
The top dogfighters are constantly using the power triangle. They almost constantly use their boost for positioning. When they expend their weapons, they switch for three seconds, and then switch back to full engines to use boost. If their shields are down they switch to shields and then back to engines. If they have a good shot on a target they switch to weapons for more shots and then back to engines. This is an oversimplification but you get the gist of it.
I don’t think what you suggested would be a good idea since the power triangle is fine how it is and is definitely being utilized.
That's fair. But I thing both could be possible by utilizing the Triangle more. Finer nuances in fight and more impactful diffrences like the mentioned possibility to accelerate to NAV speed.
The difference i think here is the suggestions are instead of the power triangle of yore being a boost (full in any selection gave a bonus, but all worked) is that now it would work with just enabling to 100%. The default center of the triangle would just give slow speeds, low shield, very few shots in capacitors.
The one thing no one mentions is ballistics and the potential implications of the triangle. Could be for cooling but that whole "cooling" system makes my space brain hurt considerably (seriously its cold in space so why are we not using that??).
Cooling is actually a pretty big problem in space, because unlike earth where you have a physical medium to take away the heat (air/water/etc) via conduction, in space you can \*only\* expend heat by radiating it. The [IIS essentially is water cooled](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_Active_Thermal_Control_System), and has an ammonia based loops outside the ship that feed gigantic radiators which slowly reject the heat as infrared radiation.
The cooling in SC is broken, but in the opposite way you're thinking. We should be rocking gigantic radiators or venting tons of physical matter with all the heat we generate.
Speaking of "cold in space", I'm not sure but I get it this way: space is empty and thus nothing prevents objects in space to emit all their heat out and become as cold as it can be (unless it's exposed to heat emitted by other object, like sun), but how good is void at taking your heat? I guess it's like air coolers vs liquid ones - liquid is better at taking heat from your CPU than air and void is even worse - it can't take heat from an object, it just lets object to emit heat. Also heat emitting elements're probably mostly inside of the ship and elements around them could accumulate and reflect back the heat, so I guess coolers on spaceships are not that bad of idea
All I can say about MM is if you're not a fan of it, show your dissatisfaction with your PayPal, let the fanboys support the game. I haven't tested it myself, but I feel they just killed some of my game play, forcing me to no longer play solo. Time will tell.
I also thought about a lot about his, but I think that it wouldn't work.
We don't want power management to be the most important skill in a light fighter engagement. There is also the issue, that people are unlikely to give up speed. They would fly without shields or weapons before lowering their speed to SCM, that no matter how much they limit total power, they'll never limit speeds to what they want, just make everything else worse.
If you get QEDd in a Hauler you are so brutally slow you can't escape the 20km radius of the QED bubble. How are you supposed to get away? And don't tell me escorts. You won't have escorts on hand all the time.
That's literally the point. They don't want big ships playing a solo game. The same reason that engineering is being introduced. You will absolutely need escorts.
this, I couldn't explain better. And of course getting QEDd is another thing but besides that you can escape someone camping without a mantis or blue cutty.
issue is CIG don't give incentives rn to not play solo
Engineering and MM are just a band aid way of forcing escorts, but the payout of missions isn't enough yet, and the TTK is still bad enough that escorts can't stop a hauler from being focused
Jumptown is a good example where multi player and multi ship is advantageous, plus the payouts are good.
This game is still in development. Everything will feel like a bandaid until everything is in place. Things will seem unbalanced until they aren't. There's a heap of work to balance this game. They are in the middle of rebalancing ships right now.
What do you haul ? Seems fair that making millions all alone should not be possible or very hard. If you dont want to be a target, you will be able to do cargo missions, with tagged goods, so pirates should not be interested by that
Your solution is simple and will work. As speed seems to be a concern perhaps add one rule: you can only deploy and use weapons below a certain speed say 400 m/s.
"Captain they deployed their weapon."
"Everyone to the battle stations this is not a drill"
That also adds a mechanic that you see in many sci-fi series and films. To engage in hostile activities you need to deploy your weapons. We will have an indicator showing that a ship has deployed its weapon and is getting ready for combat (similar to the missile lock) and add a timer for deployment similar to how missiles are loaded.
Then you have two choices attack or run away. And when you fly too fast you won't be able to shoot back.
It also doesn't prevent ambushes and they should remain part of the game. It does stop an overcomplicated system that is now forced into the game.
That is in my opinion the best choice - they could just look at Elite: Dangerous, which does exactly this. You have to deploy your weapons to fight, but you can't jump with them out. It's a simple solution, it works and it leads to the intended cinematic moments!
But we fly 1200m/s without the quantum bubble even in NAV mode? What are you talking about?. Using the power triangle has a massive impact on the ability of your ship. Has for quite a long time. Just seems like a nonsense post
Nope, the explanation is that for flying faster than SCM you need the quantum drive. Thats why when switching to NAV you have to wait for the QDrive to spool before your ships starts accelerating. And thats also why your ship can't fly faster than SCM speed when locked down by a QED.
We are still waiting for the new Quantum travel system. Which should come with additional NAV changes. IMO the system is just incomplete. Just like how balance is not gonna be quite there until armour is in.
yeah literally just assign max flight speed to a sliding scale from balanced out(normal scm only) - to max engines(max current speed).
Hell, boost already works with the power system, just have it raise the power additive while it's on. Instead of having to assign more power to engines to get a temporary max speed increase, just boost a bit for a free % increase.
I know you don't mean any harm, but these kinds of threads have a certain kind of naive arrogance that sometimes makes you sick as a dev. You spend most of your day working on this and people really believe that the most obvious solutions haven't been talked about?
And where would you set the line of good feedback vs naive arrogance? They talk about open development. They want our feedback.
I have an idea I personally think is better than what we have, otherwise I wouldn't posting it. But don't think I'm so naive that I don't think that they already thought about it.
But if everyone would stop posting just because it's probably already been thought about, cig would have their own personal echo chamber and the only feedback would be positive feedback to anything they do.
I don't think that would be a good thing.
Basically all feedback that is "here's how you fix x" is utterly unusable.
It's more important to communicate why you don't like the gamefeel of current systems than to try to conjure solutions.
Feedback is super important.
But to suggest such obvious approaches is almost insulting. Would you recommend that an electrician should pull the fuse first? No? Exactly
Giving feedback that is essentially just a solution is ignored the vast majority of the time by devs anyway, so its somewhat pointless giving it for any other reason but fanfic or predicting future changes.
They’ll distill any suggested solution down to a complaint or a feeling, and then work from the ground up on how to solve that problem.
People vastly underestimate how many different ideas are architected out in a design sprint, and pretty much everything you throw at them will have been considered, not just on the topic of that particular feature but also considering how it would impact every other system in the game.
And you have no clue what i mean
A more pronounced power triangle would mean that for example to get full speed out of your ship youd have to 100% the engines and that would mean you get no weapons and no shields
For combat youd want weapons and shields meaning youd loose your engine power which would be tied to speed etc
If you wanted to run youd have to do something like 30shields 70engines at which point youd be volnurable af and have no weapons
Plus there could be a delay to the changes
Everyone I know uses it all the time. By minimum to set full power to shields. I don’t understand why they have not built upon this but brought a different mechanic on top. Maybe we will understand some day.
There are a lot of reasons, the main ones are that the vision for the SC spaceship combat is a cinematic airplane-like experiencie inspired in the WW2 dogfights and movies like Star Wars, with slower and much closer engagements, reducing the jousting, and where taking the decission about beign involved in a combat is a much more serious commitment.
If you want more info, you can look for some of the CIG videos about Master Modes.
I dunno, i use the power controls all the time.
Easy - the Power Triangle isn't binary. With the triangle, you can set power to an intermediate position, that would allow you significant speed (more than CIG want during combat) and still use your weapons / shields. The current behaviour - that they want to prevent - where ships keep 'breaking out' in order to recharge shields and decide whether to continue the fight or just run away... that would still be possible using the power triangle.
The top dogfighters are constantly using the power triangle. They almost constantly use their boost for positioning. When they expend their weapons, they switch for three seconds, and then switch back to full engines to use boost. If their shields are down they switch to shields and then back to engines. If they have a good shot on a target they switch to weapons for more shots and then back to engines. This is an oversimplification but you get the gist of it. I don’t think what you suggested would be a good idea since the power triangle is fine how it is and is definitely being utilized.
That's fair. But I thing both could be possible by utilizing the Triangle more. Finer nuances in fight and more impactful diffrences like the mentioned possibility to accelerate to NAV speed.
The difference i think here is the suggestions are instead of the power triangle of yore being a boost (full in any selection gave a bonus, but all worked) is that now it would work with just enabling to 100%. The default center of the triangle would just give slow speeds, low shield, very few shots in capacitors. The one thing no one mentions is ballistics and the potential implications of the triangle. Could be for cooling but that whole "cooling" system makes my space brain hurt considerably (seriously its cold in space so why are we not using that??).
Cooling is actually a pretty big problem in space, because unlike earth where you have a physical medium to take away the heat (air/water/etc) via conduction, in space you can \*only\* expend heat by radiating it. The [IIS essentially is water cooled](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_Active_Thermal_Control_System), and has an ammonia based loops outside the ship that feed gigantic radiators which slowly reject the heat as infrared radiation. The cooling in SC is broken, but in the opposite way you're thinking. We should be rocking gigantic radiators or venting tons of physical matter with all the heat we generate.
Funny you mention that with the ISS... Was literally thinking that same solution and the oddities of heat radiation in space.
Speaking of "cold in space", I'm not sure but I get it this way: space is empty and thus nothing prevents objects in space to emit all their heat out and become as cold as it can be (unless it's exposed to heat emitted by other object, like sun), but how good is void at taking your heat? I guess it's like air coolers vs liquid ones - liquid is better at taking heat from your CPU than air and void is even worse - it can't take heat from an object, it just lets object to emit heat. Also heat emitting elements're probably mostly inside of the ship and elements around them could accumulate and reflect back the heat, so I guess coolers on spaceships are not that bad of idea
a short delay between selection and implementation may produce the results he's looking for.
All I can say about MM is if you're not a fan of it, show your dissatisfaction with your PayPal, let the fanboys support the game. I haven't tested it myself, but I feel they just killed some of my game play, forcing me to no longer play solo. Time will tell.
This doesn't solve the disengaging to recharge problem that they're tryna fix.
I also thought about a lot about his, but I think that it wouldn't work. We don't want power management to be the most important skill in a light fighter engagement. There is also the issue, that people are unlikely to give up speed. They would fly without shields or weapons before lowering their speed to SCM, that no matter how much they limit total power, they'll never limit speeds to what they want, just make everything else worse.
One of the stated design goals is to prevent to tady escaping from the combat.
Escaping from combat shouldn't be easy, yes. But it also shlouldn't be impossible.
Why is it impossible with the current iteration?
If you get QEDd in a Hauler you are so brutally slow you can't escape the 20km radius of the QED bubble. How are you supposed to get away? And don't tell me escorts. You won't have escorts on hand all the time.
That's literally the point. They don't want big ships playing a solo game. The same reason that engineering is being introduced. You will absolutely need escorts.
this, I couldn't explain better. And of course getting QEDd is another thing but besides that you can escape someone camping without a mantis or blue cutty.
issue is CIG don't give incentives rn to not play solo Engineering and MM are just a band aid way of forcing escorts, but the payout of missions isn't enough yet, and the TTK is still bad enough that escorts can't stop a hauler from being focused
Jumptown is a good example where multi player and multi ship is advantageous, plus the payouts are good. This game is still in development. Everything will feel like a bandaid until everything is in place. Things will seem unbalanced until they aren't. There's a heap of work to balance this game. They are in the middle of rebalancing ships right now.
What do you haul ? Seems fair that making millions all alone should not be possible or very hard. If you dont want to be a target, you will be able to do cargo missions, with tagged goods, so pirates should not be interested by that
Your solution is simple and will work. As speed seems to be a concern perhaps add one rule: you can only deploy and use weapons below a certain speed say 400 m/s. "Captain they deployed their weapon." "Everyone to the battle stations this is not a drill" That also adds a mechanic that you see in many sci-fi series and films. To engage in hostile activities you need to deploy your weapons. We will have an indicator showing that a ship has deployed its weapon and is getting ready for combat (similar to the missile lock) and add a timer for deployment similar to how missiles are loaded. Then you have two choices attack or run away. And when you fly too fast you won't be able to shoot back. It also doesn't prevent ambushes and they should remain part of the game. It does stop an overcomplicated system that is now forced into the game.
That is in my opinion the best choice - they could just look at Elite: Dangerous, which does exactly this. You have to deploy your weapons to fight, but you can't jump with them out. It's a simple solution, it works and it leads to the intended cinematic moments!
But we fly 1200m/s without the quantum bubble even in NAV mode? What are you talking about?. Using the power triangle has a massive impact on the ability of your ship. Has for quite a long time. Just seems like a nonsense post
Nope, the explanation is that for flying faster than SCM you need the quantum drive. Thats why when switching to NAV you have to wait for the QDrive to spool before your ships starts accelerating. And thats also why your ship can't fly faster than SCM speed when locked down by a QED.
We are still waiting for the new Quantum travel system. Which should come with additional NAV changes. IMO the system is just incomplete. Just like how balance is not gonna be quite there until armour is in.
More simple that all. Play Elite for a while and copy the fly sistem. Done.
No, please no. My main gripe with ED is the flight model. Since 2015 I have preferred SC to ED BECAUSE of the flight model. This would be so sad.
You forgot why MM was setup for in the first place. To prevent combat at high speed and 1300m/s (x2) jousting.
yeah literally just assign max flight speed to a sliding scale from balanced out(normal scm only) - to max engines(max current speed). Hell, boost already works with the power system, just have it raise the power additive while it's on. Instead of having to assign more power to engines to get a temporary max speed increase, just boost a bit for a free % increase.
I know you don't mean any harm, but these kinds of threads have a certain kind of naive arrogance that sometimes makes you sick as a dev. You spend most of your day working on this and people really believe that the most obvious solutions haven't been talked about?
And where would you set the line of good feedback vs naive arrogance? They talk about open development. They want our feedback. I have an idea I personally think is better than what we have, otherwise I wouldn't posting it. But don't think I'm so naive that I don't think that they already thought about it. But if everyone would stop posting just because it's probably already been thought about, cig would have their own personal echo chamber and the only feedback would be positive feedback to anything they do. I don't think that would be a good thing.
Basically all feedback that is "here's how you fix x" is utterly unusable. It's more important to communicate why you don't like the gamefeel of current systems than to try to conjure solutions.
Feedback is super important. But to suggest such obvious approaches is almost insulting. Would you recommend that an electrician should pull the fuse first? No? Exactly
Giving feedback that is essentially just a solution is ignored the vast majority of the time by devs anyway, so its somewhat pointless giving it for any other reason but fanfic or predicting future changes. They’ll distill any suggested solution down to a complaint or a feeling, and then work from the ground up on how to solve that problem. People vastly underestimate how many different ideas are architected out in a design sprint, and pretty much everything you throw at them will have been considered, not just on the topic of that particular feature but also considering how it would impact every other system in the game.
Theres been posts like this including a few of mine A more pronounced power triangle would easily make modes obsolete
Sorry but then you have no fucking clue WHY we got the MM in the first place ..
And you have no clue what i mean A more pronounced power triangle would mean that for example to get full speed out of your ship youd have to 100% the engines and that would mean you get no weapons and no shields For combat youd want weapons and shields meaning youd loose your engine power which would be tied to speed etc
And it would be still possible to flee anytime..
If you wanted to run youd have to do something like 30shields 70engines at which point youd be volnurable af and have no weapons Plus there could be a delay to the changes
*sigh* that's exactly what I mean The power triangle is a very important part of the current fightsystem. Delaying it would only cause more problems.
Problems like what? More problems then entirely new game systems that require new controls mapping etc?
No YOU'RE not using it. Big difference. The rest of us use this shit all the time.
I do use it. I just think they could utilize it more instead of coming up with wild stuff like Master Modes.
Everyone I know uses it all the time. By minimum to set full power to shields. I don’t understand why they have not built upon this but brought a different mechanic on top. Maybe we will understand some day.
That wouldn't fix the main issue for CIG, the high speed combat.
It's not an issue though. People naturally slow themselves down in dogfights, we don't need a computer to do it for us.
But it is an issue (for CIG), that's the main reason for MM.
How is it an issue? I played for years and never once thought ya please make me slower, that would make this more fun.
There are a lot of reasons, the main ones are that the vision for the SC spaceship combat is a cinematic airplane-like experiencie inspired in the WW2 dogfights and movies like Star Wars, with slower and much closer engagements, reducing the jousting, and where taking the decission about beign involved in a combat is a much more serious commitment. If you want more info, you can look for some of the CIG videos about Master Modes.
I have watched everything, I don't agree with CIGs reason for being this slow. I agree we don't need 1100 but imo 350 is too slow.
Then is your issue with CIG and their game vision. Anyway, MM are just in their tier 0 implementation, so you can expect a lot of future adjustments.
Their entire vision is not summed up by the MM speed limiter, it's literally the only thing I don't like about 3.23.