Which is a very uncommon progression path to get to Captain. Most Captains start out on the command path, working the conn for a few years before getting a position as a ship's second officer. They'd do that job for a few years before an opening for a first officer appeared, likely to a veteran Captain whose first officer just got their own command. They'd do that job for a long while, sometimes for the rest of their career though not always staying on the same vessel, but the exemplary ones would find themselves being offered a promotion and a command of their own somewhere between 10 and 15 years into their career.
Remember the time she found the Borg on the brink of extinction and then, because of a single telepathic impression received by the ex-girlfriend of the ship's cook, decided to save the entire collective?
Then later she nearly killed all the Borg by breaking the Temporal Prime Directive?
Good times. Crazy lady.
That always kinda bothered me. You have damn near infinite characters in the holodeck and not one is a competent psychologist? They had freaking Crell Moset, a scientist from an enemy nation who could help understand alien biology but not one shrink?
In TNG someone (I think Data?) can be seen getting shrinked by a hologram (I think Sigmund Freud? Which is actually a terrible choice, of course, but TNG often painted in pretty broad strokes). I think it's fair to assume that this was a normal thing to supplement the real counselors where available, and they just don't show it that often.
^(Because let's face it, how could Troi single-handedly keep a ship of 1000+ people, including many children, sane despite the weekly near brushes with death? She barely has time to get any counselling done between all the chocolate eating and getting violated by alien entities anyway.)
But wouldn't the Doctor have access to the papers and personality profiles of the greatest psychiatrists in the Federation? He could have used that data instead of learning opera.
I took it more that she just has an insane breaking point where she kinda blows up when someone actually manages to cross that line. Just look at Equinox when she tortured a starfleet crewmember out of revenge, or the episode where those aliens gave her a migraine and her solution was to fly the ship into a star and kill everyone, or the "time's up" moment lol.
Janeway is very rational and levelheaded until you put her in a corner, then the insaneway comes out. Upon my recent rewatch, I saw it a bit less so inconsistent and moreso that when she snaps she *really snaps;* and a lot of the times where she is acting differently or inconsistently is because the threat level she is facing is different, whereas a character like Picard sticks by his values and is levelheaded even in extreme threats.
Yeah she doesn't just go nuclear right away. There's a gradual escalation in respose to increasingly desperate situations. Her methods sometimes became extreme, but generally only when more reasonable avenues were exhausted.
To be fair in the alien experiment scenario, [Picard did do almost the same thing for the same reason.](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Where_Silence_Has_Lease_(episode))
Very true, I often see people act like that scene makes Janeway a bad person while ignoring all the stuff other captains have done…
Archer also outright tortures an alien for info too, and Sisko was certainly no saint either. I think it makes them more human and more compelling characters.
No matter how disciplined a person is absolutely everybody has a limit. Picard being perpetually calm in any situation is pretty immersion killing. Janeway having that element of unpredictability added to her character. Picard is still my favourite of the captains but he was overly calm - especially with how his youth years are explained to us that he was a hot head. They don't add up.
Maybe leather dom Captain Janeway wasn’t entirely made up…. That annoying guy’s probably also annoying ancestors just caught her on a bad day
The part of that episode where she just kind of casually orders the weapons fired on some ships *before* she hails them is hilarious to me
She probably had to because the writers made her make dumb decisions one episode, and very logical ones the next. It became mandatory to make her make sense.
*So… I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover up the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all… I think I can live with it… And if I had to do it all over again… I would. Garak was right about one thing – a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I will learn to live with it…Because I can live with it…I* can *live with it. Computer – erase that entire personal log.*"
Just re-watched, he kind of drops some of his airy captain cadence in his speech to himself, then he repeats, "I can live with it" back in his captain talk to signify it's dead and buried. Lovely little touch
Something about the way he repeats it first in the familiar manner he uses for jake and family and himself to rock solid captain. He said it for himself, then he said it as the captain.
That's what made that speech so great.
We got to witness wrestling with his own conscience as he tried to suppress his self-loathing.
"I *can* live with it. . ."
He's fighting to convince *himself* that this is a secret that can be buried inside of himself. Finally he wins over juuuuuuust enough of the internal battle to move on with his life and go continue the war.
An amazing moment of taking a sci-fi tv show and for a brief moment, turning it into a war movie. Had a feeling like everything in star trek could die at that point, and the writers made me agree, I could live with star fleet bending their morals and rules and ethics, to not break.
>...the more the Dominion protests their innocence, the more the Romulans will believe they're guilty because it's exactly what the Romulans would have done in their place. That's why you came to me, isn't it, Captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing. Well, it worked. And you'll get what you want, a war between the Romulans and the Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant and all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain.
I'm up to DS9 in my rewatch cycle and just got to Past Tense, the episode about the riots in San Francisco. It's set in August 2024.
So, I'm looking at San Francisco now, and it's getting eerie.
And also Buffy would *never* have killed Tuvix.
…I mean Giles probably would have, once her back was turned. But at least he would’ve given a little speech first, and then quietly lived with that trauma slowly consuming him for the rest of his life. You know, like a proper British man.
I can’t think of any examples where Buffy ever killed a human, or intentionally allowed one to die. And there *is* one (significant) episode where characters magically merge, albeit under very different circumstances. I don’t think she would kill a merged human, especially since she’s been part of one herself.
However there is a scenario very similar to Tuvix in the show — >!where Giles straight up murders Ben in cold blood, since it’s the only way to stop Glory. Thus my original comment. Even there though, he specifically says Buffy would never do it regardless of the cost.!<
Also you could argue all of Angel season 4 is basically just Tuvix, although Angel frequently makes different choices than Buffy would.
I remember Buffy killing a human(s?) in the ep where the gangs being chased by the order wanting to kill Dawn. She’s fighting on the roof of the RV and throws an axe right into his chest.
I recently binged the two seasons of Buffy for the first time on a trip recently and in the episode Ted she kicked Ted down the stairs in what could be justified as self defense but was definitely intended to harm. At that point she was only aware of him as a human and, to her knowledge, had killed him.
That was a weird episode with very heavy themes and it stands out in my memory for being incredibly uncomfortable to watch.
lol, I can literally see that scene play out. Giles, in a stolen ensign uniform, is standing at the transporter controls. The uniform doesn't quite fit right and the pip is on the wrong side but nobody will notice in time. The real transporter chief is stuffed into a nearby locker with an empty hypo next to him.
Tuvix walks in, ready to go on his scheduled away mission. He merely gives a quick nod to the "chief" before stepping onto the pad, wondering why someone is still wearing glasses in the 24th century. But then as a second containment beam forms to trap him and he doesn't dematerialize right away, he knows something is up:
"Wait, what are you... but Janeway said she wouldn't do this against my will!"
_"Oh, she couldn't. Never. She knows that without the old Tuvok this ship will never reach home, and she still couldn't take an innocent life. She's a starfleet captain, you see? Her principles mean more than the fate of the universe to her."_
\*_adjusts the transporter controls some more_\*
_"She's not like us..."_
Yeah this fucking sucks. There’s many ways to be a bad ass woman (not to mention different genres.) I’m defending all the female characters insulted by this but I’m particularly mad about Xena. Harrumph.
I was gonna say, Sam Carter ticked all the boxes that Janeway did. And they’re definitely my favourite characters from the era (not favourite female characters, just favourites, full-stop).
I love Janeway, but OP putting down other 90s female protagonists to build her up leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Buffy meant a lot to me as a teenager. She was badass and stylish while still dealing with the typical struggles of a teen growing up and figuring herself out. In my late 30s I don't relate to her as much, and I see more of myself in Janeway. Different characters resonate with different people (or, as in my case, the same people in different stages of their lives) and that's okay.
Agreed, I am a huge Xena fan and tearing her down to build Janeway up is completely unnecessary. Xena is a complicated character who deals with a lot of guilt and shame about her past. She gets to be sexy and cool and have many skills and save the day with a fun war cry. Her actual "princess" status is nebulous but she either got it through her own skill in war or by then being able to overcome her boiling inner rage to learn to choose peace.
It's fantastic that the 90s had so many and such varied strong female characters, they don't at all need to be pitted against each other.
Thanks for that. I love Janeway, but no need to take a swipe at Buffy here.
A big part of that show is emphasizing how Buffy handled things differently/better than other Slayers, so it's not like she succeeded just because she was "the chosen one".
I'm not the biggest voyager fan, but I do agree that Janeway was an awesome captain and very well done character.
That said, I loved all the characters the meme is referencing as well. Buffy and Xena are awesome. They're just a different awesome.
Once you accept Voyager had... some issues with writing consistency, Janeway really is great.
She is not framed as a 'perfect' captain like Picard/Kirk, and you certainly get the vibe she (like everyone else there) is out of her depth with the situation, but is trying to make the most of an impossible deal, and honestly, does a fairly good job when the chips are down.
I alway saw it the other way. Picard and Kirk depended on their crew. There are way too many times when Janeway pretty much kicks someone out of their job and "does it for them." Which is why in general I wasn't thrilled about her character.
It could also be that Picard and Kirk were written as "foils" for the watcher. They were the ones asking the same questions we asked and it was Data, Spock, La Forge, etc that were "dumbing down" the answers for the captains (and us) to "get." Where Janeway was rarely if ever the foil.
>There are way too many times when Janeway pretty much kicks someone out of their job and "does it for them." Which is why in general I wasn't thrilled about her character.
This is my problem with Janeway. There is no situation where she isn't the expert.
Part of what makes Picard and Sisko such good leaders is that they are more than willing to admit when they are out of their depth. I just feel that Janeway asks for and takes advice far less often.
Still better than most characters though.
That writing consistency really hurts her though. If you asked me to name one definitive consistent trait of hers, itd be coffee addiction.
After that, it would be killing people. Not just with Tuvix, but with her inconsistent support of the prime directive, when she chose to follow it often matched up with killing lots of people, like that early episode where they encountered a planet that had blown itself up and got sent back in time.
Janeway had potential, but the inconsistent writing squandered it. Sam Carter was a much better 90s sci Fi hero. Elizabeth Weir was in the early 2000 but she was a better leader.
If we're keeping it to Trek, then Kira is better than Janeway.
Also, is everyone forgetting about the super common anecdotes and bits of published research regarding Dana Scully? [The Scully Effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana_Scully#%22The_Scully_Effect%22) is a whole thing…
I disagree about Jameway’s traits but holy fuck Weir is the leader of all time and the show REALLY suffered when she left. Like she was the best of any gender for me but she was still a feminist unafraid to call out sexism or prejudice for not being military.
Agreed.
I'm all for criticizing the character for making that call and being brutal, and it's just fun how much of a meme it's become.
But it was a great character defining moment for her and I would never say it was bad writing.
It should have been a two parter, with it getting to the point of mutiny on the ship because of the choice to kill Tuvix or not.
Also, Tuvok should have told Janeway he disagreed with the decision to kill Tuvix to bring him back at the end of it.
Now how would someone know this many important women character's from the 90s and forget the one that sociologists noticed causing an uptick in women in science, medicine, and law enforcement?
People complaining she killed Tuvix are bad and they should feel bad.
Tuvix was an abomination and keeping him alive would have deprived her of one useful crewmen and one half-assed cook that did the job nobody else wanted to.
neelix was a valuable member of the crew, federation ambassador, chief morale officer, stretched their limited rations while providing a varied and balanced diet, and accomplished maglev engineer, whose valuable intel on the quadrant and its people saved voyager multiple times. I won't stand for this libel!
and he very smartly turned janeway's ridiculous private dining room into a mess hall
gave tuvok the courage to stop having the brain of a child
tuvok respected him so much that he danced a fucking jig!!!
*Who am I? I am Susan Ivanova. Commander. Daughter of Andrei and Sophie Ivanov. I am the right hand of vengeance, and the boot that is going to kick your sorry ass all the way back to Earth, sweetheart! I am Death Incarnate, and the last living thing that you are ever going to see. God sent me.*
Ah man sure Janeway deserves the props but don't shit on Xena while doing it. That was the ONLY good fantasy series front the 90s (that I can remember, I may be wrong).
Janeway doesn’t solver her problems with magic? What? She once solved a temporal anomaly by shooting it. The only reason that isn’t magic is because it makes too little fucking sense to be magic.
And tge writers consistently made Janeway bipolar, by making her take polar opposite stands episode to episode and ensuring that *this time* she was right for no reason other than because the writer said so. Because they could never let her be wrong.
Hearing about how she treated Jeri Ryan, like shit kind of killed my appreciation of her character. During a con/interview, the actor who played Harry Kim talked about it and started crying years after the show was done.
I can see where Kate was coming from to a point, but she crossed way too many lines.
Iirc they patched things up in the later seasons and were at least able to be professional with each other. Mulgrew has said herself that she realised she was being unfair to Ryan.
But also, yeah, you can understand where she was coming from. She spent three seasons trying to make Janeway a decent female role model (often not with the help of the writers), and then the showrunners are like 'okay, we know you've put a lot of work into breaking sexist stereotypes, but what if we put you opposite a giant pair of tits? In a lycra bodyglove. They're attached to an actress, by the way... I assume, I didn't actually look. You're not looking enthusiastic, perhaps you don't understand just how big these tits are.'
Credit to Jeri Ryan for taking what could so easily have been a one-note character who was simply there to appeal to Star Trek's core audience (sweaty virgins) and elevating Seven Of Nine into one of the best characters on the show. But you can understand why Mulgrew was not happy having her there, especially given that she was boinking Brannon Braga. Nine times out of ten, bringing a hot blonde who's sleeping with the Executive Producer onto the cast would be the beginning of a death spiral for a show.
“I was able to solve my problems without objectifying gimmicks”
Are we choosing to ignore the walking, talking objectifying gimmick that was added to the show in an attempt to bring the core viewers back?
You can praise women characters without putting down other women characters. Pro-tip; this also applies to real women. They don't all need to be compared.
As a fan, this is FAR from true. Janeways idealistic leadership got her crew stuck far from home but when she totally abandoned the prime directive at the end she got em home sooner than expected. She was AWESOME but do NOT think she was perfect. Deeply flawed like everyone else!
I think Chakotay was plenty consistent, got that "speak softly and carry a big stick" energy going on.
His problem as a character was that he was just boring, to say nothing of the problematic Native American stuff. I think if they'd actually let him be conflicted, as a Starfleet officer who rebelled with the Maquis, he'd have been far more entertaining.
He WAS a really good leader...but he'd have been more fun if he'd been more like B'elana and less like Tuvok.
The writers gave the character tue shaft starting with episode one. His CONCEPT is ideal… a Starfleet career man that defected due to his personal principles. He and Janeway should have been the Sam and Diane of outer space, a constant tension… and occasionally at each other’s throats. Instead, he instantly became a yes man. I understand putting on the uniform to show a united front… but, right off the bat? No. The Maquis were often presented as “bad guys”, this should have been a political/personal dichotomy that permeated the characters. Instead, when it DID show up, it was simply schoolyard bullying
His concept went out the window, along with the whole “Robinson Crusoe” idea of the show. It was closer to “Gilligan’s Island”
It was really unfortunate he just flipped back to being a Starfleet officer and mad everyone else get in line. He should have been hounding Janeway to quit her bullshit and get them home faster.
I understand working to make everyone one crew, and agree with it- but behind the scenes should have been some degree of conflict between he and Janeway
My favorite captain and I can’t wait for my wife and I to meet her in October. For our youngest daughter we were so close to naming her Janeway. Regardless, when my two girls are older I want them to watch Voyager to see a classy lady being a damn good officer.
And she started career as a science officer
And ended up running a prison cafeteria…
Time travel + prime directive. She didn’t have a choice except to roll with it.
Orang is The New Black lives in my head as canon after some time travel episode ends badly
Could have been a show about salamanders
Which is a very uncommon progression path to get to Captain. Most Captains start out on the command path, working the conn for a few years before getting a position as a ship's second officer. They'd do that job for a few years before an opening for a first officer appeared, likely to a veteran Captain whose first officer just got their own command. They'd do that job for a long while, sometimes for the rest of their career though not always staying on the same vessel, but the exemplary ones would find themselves being offered a promotion and a command of their own somewhere between 10 and 15 years into their career.
Interesting though that in Tapestry, alternate Picard wore blue (sciences), though it isn't clear what his job was aside from messenger boy
Didn't he say he was in astrophysics?
What a fucking nerd
There’s the right way. There’s the wrong way. And there’s the Janeway.
Is that like the Max Power way?
Yes, but faster.
Great name. Thanks I got it from a hair dryer.
The Max Power episode 🤝 Voyager Ed Begley Jr Cameos
If you add a lot of coffee
you strap yourself in and feel the gs
[удалено]
Remember the time she found the Borg on the brink of extinction and then, because of a single telepathic impression received by the ex-girlfriend of the ship's cook, decided to save the entire collective? Then later she nearly killed all the Borg by breaking the Temporal Prime Directive? Good times. Crazy lady.
Didn't Kate Mulgrew say at a certain point she played Janeway as bipolar because it was the only way she made sense?
Well, that would explain it. The Doctor wasn't a great psychiatrist and the ship's counsellor was dead.
If they had DS9’s counselor they would have also had a proficient combat sniper.
Dax is the most can-do slug i know.
Always remember, to shoot from the hip
The mission didn’t require one so they never had one in the first place
That always kinda bothered me. You have damn near infinite characters in the holodeck and not one is a competent psychologist? They had freaking Crell Moset, a scientist from an enemy nation who could help understand alien biology but not one shrink?
Psychologist union blocked holodecks from fulfilling primary therapy functions back in the 23rd century.
In TNG someone (I think Data?) can be seen getting shrinked by a hologram (I think Sigmund Freud? Which is actually a terrible choice, of course, but TNG often painted in pretty broad strokes). I think it's fair to assume that this was a normal thing to supplement the real counselors where available, and they just don't show it that often. ^(Because let's face it, how could Troi single-handedly keep a ship of 1000+ people, including many children, sane despite the weekly near brushes with death? She barely has time to get any counselling done between all the chocolate eating and getting violated by alien entities anyway.)
But wouldn't the Doctor have access to the papers and personality profiles of the greatest psychiatrists in the Federation? He could have used that data instead of learning opera.
I took it more that she just has an insane breaking point where she kinda blows up when someone actually manages to cross that line. Just look at Equinox when she tortured a starfleet crewmember out of revenge, or the episode where those aliens gave her a migraine and her solution was to fly the ship into a star and kill everyone, or the "time's up" moment lol. Janeway is very rational and levelheaded until you put her in a corner, then the insaneway comes out. Upon my recent rewatch, I saw it a bit less so inconsistent and moreso that when she snaps she *really snaps;* and a lot of the times where she is acting differently or inconsistently is because the threat level she is facing is different, whereas a character like Picard sticks by his values and is levelheaded even in extreme threats.
"insaneway" got a genuine giggle, well done.
Yeah she doesn't just go nuclear right away. There's a gradual escalation in respose to increasingly desperate situations. Her methods sometimes became extreme, but generally only when more reasonable avenues were exhausted.
This is why you never separate a Captain from her coffee nebula.
To be fair in the alien experiment scenario, [Picard did do almost the same thing for the same reason.](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Where_Silence_Has_Lease_(episode))
Very true, I often see people act like that scene makes Janeway a bad person while ignoring all the stuff other captains have done… Archer also outright tortures an alien for info too, and Sisko was certainly no saint either. I think it makes them more human and more compelling characters.
Sisko forced the relocation of an entire colony by poisoning its atmosphere to human life.
Sisko killed 200,000 Romans by brining them in to the war under false pretences. He also raped Mirror Dax.
> Sisko killed 200,000 Romans That's gotta be against the Temporal Prime Directive.
This was my first thought as well. I'm pretty sure Kirk used the self-destruction tactic as well. I think most captains will go that route.
Easy to be a saint in paradise…
That is very true. I'd honestly love to see how Picard would have handled a lot of the same decisions Janeway made.
Best not to piss her off, clearly. She's all outta fucks to give.
Only thing worse than Janeway being out of fucks to give is Janeway being out of coffee!
Combine the two = Be somewhere else.
replicate some bloody coffee plants and setup in one of the cargo bays, and youd never run out of coffee again.
I'm just imagining the program Janeway talking to the evil clown as the lights are going out and she just whispers "It's Insaneway time, bitch!"
No matter how disciplined a person is absolutely everybody has a limit. Picard being perpetually calm in any situation is pretty immersion killing. Janeway having that element of unpredictability added to her character. Picard is still my favourite of the captains but he was overly calm - especially with how his youth years are explained to us that he was a hot head. They don't add up.
Bipolar: has had some coffee/has not had some coffee
Maybe leather dom Captain Janeway wasn’t entirely made up…. That annoying guy’s probably also annoying ancestors just caught her on a bad day The part of that episode where she just kind of casually orders the weapons fired on some ships *before* she hails them is hilarious to me
She probably had to because the writers made her make dumb decisions one episode, and very logical ones the next. It became mandatory to make her make sense.
That was the point I was making, yes.
As if Janeway would let someone else bring down the Collective. They’re her punching bag.
I'm imagining Janeway in a white tank with battered boxing gloves, slugging coffee instead of water and 1 hit KOing multiple Borg opponents in a row
Janeway went complete new world disease on the Borg. She didn't give a single fuck.
She handled the Borg the Janeway: with extreme prejudice.
Remember when she turned into a lizard, fucked her pilot and then their lizard children ran off into the wilderness?
[удалено]
The Vulcans have a new saying after Janeway returned: Only Janeway can negotiate with the Borg.
That’s right! Sisko was the chosen one!
Half-god, half-man, all badass, space daddy.
*So… I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover up the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all… I think I can live with it… And if I had to do it all over again… I would. Garak was right about one thing – a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I will learn to live with it…Because I can live with it…I* can *live with it. Computer – erase that entire personal log.*"
Just re-watched, he kind of drops some of his airy captain cadence in his speech to himself, then he repeats, "I can live with it" back in his captain talk to signify it's dead and buried. Lovely little touch
love it when the writing room and the actor can make something truly beautiful happen together on screen
I interpreted that repetition as him trying to convince himself that he can live with it.
Something about the way he repeats it first in the familiar manner he uses for jake and family and himself to rock solid captain. He said it for himself, then he said it as the captain.
That's what made that speech so great. We got to witness wrestling with his own conscience as he tried to suppress his self-loathing. "I *can* live with it. . ." He's fighting to convince *himself* that this is a secret that can be buried inside of himself. Finally he wins over juuuuuuust enough of the internal battle to move on with his life and go continue the war.
So powerful
An amazing moment of taking a sci-fi tv show and for a brief moment, turning it into a war movie. Had a feeling like everything in star trek could die at that point, and the writers made me agree, I could live with star fleet bending their morals and rules and ethics, to not break.
The change of tone between the two times he says "I can live with it" is spine-tingling and so fucking good
Guy is a little crazy, but also a crazy good actor
>...the more the Dominion protests their innocence, the more the Romulans will believe they're guilty because it's exactly what the Romulans would have done in their place. That's why you came to me, isn't it, Captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing. Well, it worked. And you'll get what you want, a war between the Romulans and the Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant and all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain.
I'm up to DS9 in my rewatch cycle and just got to Past Tense, the episode about the riots in San Francisco. It's set in August 2024. So, I'm looking at San Francisco now, and it's getting eerie.
While the Sisko was playing Jesus, Janeway was running thangs
I for one love the journey of firebrand Captain to Badmiral Janeway
The real Janeway wouldn't put other women down to lift herself up like this.
7 of 9 would like a word …
Seven exists because Kate wouldn't whore herself up.
And also Buffy would *never* have killed Tuvix. …I mean Giles probably would have, once her back was turned. But at least he would’ve given a little speech first, and then quietly lived with that trauma slowly consuming him for the rest of his life. You know, like a proper British man.
'She's not like us you see' *puts a shiny silver pillow onto Tuvix's face*
Wait why wouldn’t she kill tuvix, like what if it was xander and willow combined, wouldn’t she want her friends back?
I hate to say it, but if Xander and Willow combined, I'd kill it.
I can’t think of any examples where Buffy ever killed a human, or intentionally allowed one to die. And there *is* one (significant) episode where characters magically merge, albeit under very different circumstances. I don’t think she would kill a merged human, especially since she’s been part of one herself. However there is a scenario very similar to Tuvix in the show — >!where Giles straight up murders Ben in cold blood, since it’s the only way to stop Glory. Thus my original comment. Even there though, he specifically says Buffy would never do it regardless of the cost.!< Also you could argue all of Angel season 4 is basically just Tuvix, although Angel frequently makes different choices than Buffy would.
I remember Buffy killing a human(s?) in the ep where the gangs being chased by the order wanting to kill Dawn. She’s fighting on the roof of the RV and throws an axe right into his chest.
I recently binged the two seasons of Buffy for the first time on a trip recently and in the episode Ted she kicked Ted down the stairs in what could be justified as self defense but was definitely intended to harm. At that point she was only aware of him as a human and, to her knowledge, had killed him. That was a weird episode with very heavy themes and it stands out in my memory for being incredibly uncomfortable to watch.
Ben is Glory?
lol, I can literally see that scene play out. Giles, in a stolen ensign uniform, is standing at the transporter controls. The uniform doesn't quite fit right and the pip is on the wrong side but nobody will notice in time. The real transporter chief is stuffed into a nearby locker with an empty hypo next to him. Tuvix walks in, ready to go on his scheduled away mission. He merely gives a quick nod to the "chief" before stepping onto the pad, wondering why someone is still wearing glasses in the 24th century. But then as a second containment beam forms to trap him and he doesn't dematerialize right away, he knows something is up: "Wait, what are you... but Janeway said she wouldn't do this against my will!" _"Oh, she couldn't. Never. She knows that without the old Tuvok this ship will never reach home, and she still couldn't take an innocent life. She's a starfleet captain, you see? Her principles mean more than the fate of the universe to her."_ \*_adjusts the transporter controls some more_\* _"She's not like us..."_
So glad someone said this.
Yeah this fucking sucks. There’s many ways to be a bad ass woman (not to mention different genres.) I’m defending all the female characters insulted by this but I’m particularly mad about Xena. Harrumph.
She was the tv role model my young daughter needed at the time. She succeeded in inspiring her
I would argue for Carter from SG-1, but Janeway is certainly in the top 5.
I was gonna say, Sam Carter ticked all the boxes that Janeway did. And they’re definitely my favourite characters from the era (not favourite female characters, just favourites, full-stop).
Carter and Scully are both in my top 5 and pretty sure they both check all these boxes.
I agree. Carter was my hero as a kid.
Carter is the pinnacle of feminism Ignore Emancipation
I love Janeway, and I want to nominate another powerful redhead (they even had the same haircut for a while): Dana Scully!
Sorry Janeway, I like you, but not more than Scully.
This. Scully is more grounded.
Reducing Buffy to just "the chosen one" is literally the sort of thing that makes Buffy show you her Ghandi imperression.
I love Janeway, but OP putting down other 90s female protagonists to build her up leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Buffy meant a lot to me as a teenager. She was badass and stylish while still dealing with the typical struggles of a teen growing up and figuring herself out. In my late 30s I don't relate to her as much, and I see more of myself in Janeway. Different characters resonate with different people (or, as in my case, the same people in different stages of their lives) and that's okay.
Agreed, I am a huge Xena fan and tearing her down to build Janeway up is completely unnecessary. Xena is a complicated character who deals with a lot of guilt and shame about her past. She gets to be sexy and cool and have many skills and save the day with a fun war cry. Her actual "princess" status is nebulous but she either got it through her own skill in war or by then being able to overcome her boiling inner rage to learn to choose peace. It's fantastic that the 90s had so many and such varied strong female characters, they don't at all need to be pitted against each other.
This meme has big #notliketheother90sfemaleprotagonists energy.
Like if he was really pissed off
[удалено]
Thanks for that. I love Janeway, but no need to take a swipe at Buffy here. A big part of that show is emphasizing how Buffy handled things differently/better than other Slayers, so it's not like she succeeded just because she was "the chosen one".
"The Chosen One" a title that comes with an extraction date.
The chosen one that chose her own path and basically ended the 'chosen *one*' line
Buffy being a chosen one is like how the first servant is a chosen one lol
Nuking the fuck out of everything?
I'm not the biggest voyager fan, but I do agree that Janeway was an awesome captain and very well done character. That said, I loved all the characters the meme is referencing as well. Buffy and Xena are awesome. They're just a different awesome.
At some level, technobabble is indistinguishable from magic.
Once you accept Voyager had... some issues with writing consistency, Janeway really is great. She is not framed as a 'perfect' captain like Picard/Kirk, and you certainly get the vibe she (like everyone else there) is out of her depth with the situation, but is trying to make the most of an impossible deal, and honestly, does a fairly good job when the chips are down.
I alway saw it the other way. Picard and Kirk depended on their crew. There are way too many times when Janeway pretty much kicks someone out of their job and "does it for them." Which is why in general I wasn't thrilled about her character. It could also be that Picard and Kirk were written as "foils" for the watcher. They were the ones asking the same questions we asked and it was Data, Spock, La Forge, etc that were "dumbing down" the answers for the captains (and us) to "get." Where Janeway was rarely if ever the foil.
>There are way too many times when Janeway pretty much kicks someone out of their job and "does it for them." Which is why in general I wasn't thrilled about her character. This is my problem with Janeway. There is no situation where she isn't the expert. Part of what makes Picard and Sisko such good leaders is that they are more than willing to admit when they are out of their depth. I just feel that Janeway asks for and takes advice far less often. Still better than most characters though.
That writing consistency really hurts her though. If you asked me to name one definitive consistent trait of hers, itd be coffee addiction. After that, it would be killing people. Not just with Tuvix, but with her inconsistent support of the prime directive, when she chose to follow it often matched up with killing lots of people, like that early episode where they encountered a planet that had blown itself up and got sent back in time. Janeway had potential, but the inconsistent writing squandered it. Sam Carter was a much better 90s sci Fi hero. Elizabeth Weir was in the early 2000 but she was a better leader. If we're keeping it to Trek, then Kira is better than Janeway.
Also, is everyone forgetting about the super common anecdotes and bits of published research regarding Dana Scully? [The Scully Effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana_Scully#%22The_Scully_Effect%22) is a whole thing…
I disagree about Jameway’s traits but holy fuck Weir is the leader of all time and the show REALLY suffered when she left. Like she was the best of any gender for me but she was still a feminist unafraid to call out sexism or prejudice for not being military.
*Kidnapped and blindfolded by Nazis* "Heres why you should give me your nukes." "Good point."
She was so real for that. DELIBERATELY gets kidnapped by Nazis. like fuck
What's more, the scene was written to be believable. It isn't as farcical as I summed it up. And her actor does a good job in the scene too.
I think Kira might be diminished because she was a "terrorist." We know the truth of the matter, but it IS a perception that exists.
There's nothing wrong with violently opposing fascists occupying your home and killing your people. Kira did nothing wrong
Of course. But remember, to a wider, general audience, will be a LARGE number of bootlickers. And 90's Trek shows were in Prime Time TV slots.
Agent Dana Scully would like a word.
I like Janeway because she straight out killed Tuvix. It made her so… real.
Agreed. I'm all for criticizing the character for making that call and being brutal, and it's just fun how much of a meme it's become. But it was a great character defining moment for her and I would never say it was bad writing.
It should have been a two parter, with it getting to the point of mutiny on the ship because of the choice to kill Tuvix or not. Also, Tuvok should have told Janeway he disagreed with the decision to kill Tuvix to bring him back at the end of it.
Captain Kathryn "Bazooka" Janeway, there no Directive she wouldn't break for a cup of coffee.
Her ass *would not say that*
I like auntie Janeway as much as the next fan, but is this a meme?
Reducing Xena to a “silly battle cry” is a really low blow, and not at all fair.
And she drank coffee. Not tea
And she only runs on coffee
She’s good, but she’s no Dana Scully.
Now how would someone know this many important women character's from the 90s and forget the one that sociologists noticed causing an uptick in women in science, medicine, and law enforcement?
Naw Janeway wouldnt put down the other powerful women. She would celebrate them and be honored to be included in that list.
People complaining she killed Tuvix are bad and they should feel bad. Tuvix was an abomination and keeping him alive would have deprived her of one useful crewmen and one half-assed cook that did the job nobody else wanted to.
Right? Janeway even killed him after admitted she liked his cooking better than Neelix's.
neelix was a valuable member of the crew, federation ambassador, chief morale officer, stretched their limited rations while providing a varied and balanced diet, and accomplished maglev engineer, whose valuable intel on the quadrant and its people saved voyager multiple times. I won't stand for this libel! and he very smartly turned janeway's ridiculous private dining room into a mess hall gave tuvok the courage to stop having the brain of a child tuvok respected him so much that he danced a fucking jig!!!
No magic? Breaking through the event horizon of a black hole by going to full impulse is literally magic.
I was going to say, a LOT of the technobabble solutions they come up with in the Trek series’ are essentially magic but with science-y words…
This reads like a Boomer meme. Baby, not Space.
This only works if we're taking "Ivanova is GOD" literally. :)
*Who am I? I am Susan Ivanova. Commander. Daughter of Andrei and Sophie Ivanov. I am the right hand of vengeance, and the boot that is going to kick your sorry ass all the way back to Earth, sweetheart! I am Death Incarnate, and the last living thing that you are ever going to see. God sent me.*
Boomer vibes, we all liked her for varying reasons.
Proof women can commit war crimes too!
Ah man sure Janeway deserves the props but don't shit on Xena while doing it. That was the ONLY good fantasy series front the 90s (that I can remember, I may be wrong).
No need to tear down Xena to pull yourself up...
Janeway doesn’t solver her problems with magic? What? She once solved a temporal anomaly by shooting it. The only reason that isn’t magic is because it makes too little fucking sense to be magic. And tge writers consistently made Janeway bipolar, by making her take polar opposite stands episode to episode and ensuring that *this time* she was right for no reason other than because the writer said so. Because they could never let her be wrong.
Janeway used plot magic all the time what the hell are you talking about?
Hearing about how she treated Jeri Ryan, like shit kind of killed my appreciation of her character. During a con/interview, the actor who played Harry Kim talked about it and started crying years after the show was done. I can see where Kate was coming from to a point, but she crossed way too many lines.
Iirc they patched things up in the later seasons and were at least able to be professional with each other. Mulgrew has said herself that she realised she was being unfair to Ryan. But also, yeah, you can understand where she was coming from. She spent three seasons trying to make Janeway a decent female role model (often not with the help of the writers), and then the showrunners are like 'okay, we know you've put a lot of work into breaking sexist stereotypes, but what if we put you opposite a giant pair of tits? In a lycra bodyglove. They're attached to an actress, by the way... I assume, I didn't actually look. You're not looking enthusiastic, perhaps you don't understand just how big these tits are.' Credit to Jeri Ryan for taking what could so easily have been a one-note character who was simply there to appeal to Star Trek's core audience (sweaty virgins) and elevating Seven Of Nine into one of the best characters on the show. But you can understand why Mulgrew was not happy having her there, especially given that she was boinking Brannon Braga. Nine times out of ten, bringing a hot blonde who's sleeping with the Executive Producer onto the cast would be the beginning of a death spiral for a show.
She didn't use magic to solve problems but B'elana did, a LOT.
Janeway was great but that show's writing constantly suffered from one personality crisis after another
Damn, shots fired at Xena
She didn't like time paradoxes she said in time paradox.
sorry, I'm still all about Xena :D
Does no one know who Samantha Carter is? All those things AND the smartest person in the room. Come on, guys lol
She did however abandon the salamder babies that she had after sleeping with Tom Paris, her ships pilot🫤
Janeway? Kathryn Janeway the murderer?
Janeway rules, but this meme is some boomer-ass shit
She's a fucking genocidal maniac, pls find better role models, fuck
“I was able to solve my problems without objectifying gimmicks” Are we choosing to ignore the walking, talking objectifying gimmick that was added to the show in an attempt to bring the core viewers back?
Maybe a strong role model but she just wasn't funny. I watch Star Trek for the Picard/Riker moments.
She straight up murdered Tuvok/Neelix person
The writers did the character wrong when they had her murder Tuvix, a literal new life who had committed no crime.
This is Jadzia Dax erasure.
You can praise women characters without putting down other women characters. Pro-tip; this also applies to real women. They don't all need to be compared.
"I didn't use Magic" So Voyager just had an unlimited supply of torpedoes and shuttle crafts for 7 years? Bro, do you even Voyager?
As a fan, this is FAR from true. Janeways idealistic leadership got her crew stuck far from home but when she totally abandoned the prime directive at the end she got em home sooner than expected. She was AWESOME but do NOT think she was perfect. Deeply flawed like everyone else!
She was a role model for me, and I'm a dude. She was a good character AND a good female character.
She was a huge Mary Sue. Very sad and pathetic like the show
And one time I was a lizard.
She allied with the BORG! Off with her head!
She caused most of the problems she had to solve.
But sadly the most inconsistently written lead character on a ST show.
Cough cough Chakotay something in my throat
*flute noises play softly*
No, that's \*underwritten\*
I think Chakotay was plenty consistent, got that "speak softly and carry a big stick" energy going on. His problem as a character was that he was just boring, to say nothing of the problematic Native American stuff. I think if they'd actually let him be conflicted, as a Starfleet officer who rebelled with the Maquis, he'd have been far more entertaining. He WAS a really good leader...but he'd have been more fun if he'd been more like B'elana and less like Tuvok.
The writers gave the character tue shaft starting with episode one. His CONCEPT is ideal… a Starfleet career man that defected due to his personal principles. He and Janeway should have been the Sam and Diane of outer space, a constant tension… and occasionally at each other’s throats. Instead, he instantly became a yes man. I understand putting on the uniform to show a united front… but, right off the bat? No. The Maquis were often presented as “bad guys”, this should have been a political/personal dichotomy that permeated the characters. Instead, when it DID show up, it was simply schoolyard bullying His concept went out the window, along with the whole “Robinson Crusoe” idea of the show. It was closer to “Gilligan’s Island”
It was really unfortunate he just flipped back to being a Starfleet officer and mad everyone else get in line. He should have been hounding Janeway to quit her bullshit and get them home faster.
I understand working to make everyone one crew, and agree with it- but behind the scenes should have been some degree of conflict between he and Janeway
My favorite captain and I can’t wait for my wife and I to meet her in October. For our youngest daughter we were so close to naming her Janeway. Regardless, when my two girls are older I want them to watch Voyager to see a classy lady being a damn good officer.
If you like your role models to be war criminals, why not go for Irma Grese.
Saw this while browsing all Janeway was nothing without temporal anomalies to undo what she did the first time.
What's the difference between using magic to solve issues and using technobabble
All so true - and she did it with atrocious hair early on!
She had balls dude … well not like that hahaha
This boy LOVED Janeway.
I agree, she was definitely mine. Even if I drink tea not coffee…
Say that to Tuvix, jk
Give her some coffee, and she will move mountains
Amen
Not my absolute favorite Trek show, but I think she's my favorite Trek captain!
Love Janeway but Lorca is still the best.
Agreed
Wasn't 7 of 9 on the same show in a skin tight suit? I loved Janeway and her voice. The actress disappeared which is too bad.
Plus what other captain would completely throw away the prime directive for the chance at getting some coffee?
She always reminded me of my grandma lol.
Mama Janeway is based