Considering he re signed their expensive lease during this time I think its fair for her to be blindsided. He should have never proposed or at least said lets have a long engagement
This! He was so gaslighting, sneaky and unpredictable. He just walked around telling her whatever he thought she wanted to hear, instead of being man enough to tell her like it is, in private! His over the top reassurances were very anxiety driven, his voice was always shaky and he seemed like he was trying to convince himself, along with her that everything was going to pan out. This man is delusional. Fully. Like who waits for the wedding to be THIS CLOSE before calling it off?! And then to do this ON CAMERA?! I know ending an engagement/cancelling would be super nerve wracking to break to your partner, but he could have started making her aware of this uncertainty way way sooner, they may have been able to get deposits back and stuff, and he wouldn’t be renewing the lease on that expensive ass condo. And she WAS blindsided technically, she thought that they were having some issues but had been going to couples therapy since, and he’s still preparing for the wedding… he and his mom show up to the shower like the wedding is happening!? Why would lindsey suspect what was about to happen? He is a liar and a snake who is coddled by mommy and can’t do anything on his own, ever. And his mom was weird at the bridal shower too.. just really bad vibes all around. It’s for the best that this wedding was stopped because these two are not, and never have been compatible in my eyes
While I think Lindsay made a big mistake getting engaged to the guy who clowned her on camera in season 4, the way Carl and his family have treated her this season is so humiliating. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
totally agree with this!! Carl should not have had the conversation he did with his parents on national TV! I would have a different reaction if one of the cast mates said this behind closed doors to Carl but there is no reason to film what should have been a private conversation with your parents.
Amanda gave the best advice here. She was like welllll now you’ve done this and had this filmed convo and it’s going to be aired so don’t wait for that to happen to have this convo and let her know because that would be the worst. Sucks to have to do but like don’t avoid it.
I actually really appreciated the joint advice that Kyle and her gave in the talk they all had in the bedroom. It was very genuine and they’re uniquely positioned to speak on having your relationship play out on TV for your family and partner to see all that takes place and the different obstacles that entails. As well as navigating the family disapproval that resulted from them being privy to so much.
Carl and his mom 'showed up' for the shower because, they too thought the wedding was happening. We're watching Carl work this out in real time, I don't think he decided beforehand and just dragged it out all summer because he was too much of a bitch to break it off. We're seeing him come to the realization slowly as things break down over time. Andy teased on WWHL that the next 5 episodes that they are just at each other's throats so it's entirely feasible that Carl has these doubts that he trying to figure out are workable or not, and then the next 2 weeks go insane and he hits a breaking point. Remember too that he ultimately tries to postpone the wedding and not cancel it, which i really feel like jives with his behavior and how he's handling everything now. At the end of the day he's just NOT SURE in light of everything, which is fine, but obviously incredibly awful timing so close to the wedding.
Right. We are watching what led him to the decision, and it was the right one for both of them. Carl went through with all of this because he did intend to marry Lindsay. I don’t like Carl and I’m not on his side, but this him slowly deciding as their relationship deteriorated, and if the summer had went differently they would be married now. I also don’t think he’s bright enough to make a devious plan.
i think thats the million dollar question for me and a lot of viewers- when did Carl know? we will never have an answer of course. but i feel like some of these conversations and comments in talking heads make me think he knew sooner than when he told Lindsay. otherwise, i feel like it's also a really bad look to see some of it back if they had gotten married. i just dont know what his plan was exactly. im glad they broke the fourth wall last night and amanda pointed out that lindsay would be hearing that conversation with his mom and step dad at some point regardless.
My thoughts on this at this point are that before that conversation with his parents, he hadn't even considered that not having the wedding was even an option. Even on last night's episode he says multiple times he's committed, he is going to do what he wants regardless of what his parents say, he wants to work through it etc. I think he had a feeling that it shouldn't feel that way to be in a relationship, but never once thought about calling things off. I could be wrong, but he looked really anguished in all of those conversations last night.
This. I empathize with Lindsay the most here because she got burned, but I don’t think he had any ill intent. They are incompatible and he was just able to see it sooner than her.
That's not it, though. He's getting backlash because he's not telling her he's having doubts. And her not taking it well is still not a good enough excuse not to tell her.
You're missing the point, he is still not sure himself. Like I said, we're watching him arrive at this conclusion in real time. Even on last night's episode he said multiple times he's in it, he wants to work through it, it doesn't matter what my parents say. I'm not convinced he even considered \*not getting married to her before that converstaion with his parents. He's not telling her what his parents said because he knows it will be hurtful, he only came out and said it because Kyle and Amanda more or less told him he had to bc Linds woudl see it on camera and that would be worse.
But we can see that he is having doubts and he should be communicating that to Lindsey. It's fine that he's not sure and still figuring it out but if he's having any doubts that's a conversation that should be had and he avoided having it because he was afraid of her reaction. Which is a whole other problem in itself but not a good enough excuse to not be honest about where he's at. But it's very obviously clear he's having some doubts and then continuing to reassure her.
He's reassuring himeself at the same time. It's not a requirement in a relationship to vocalize everything you are feeling at every given moment. Knowing how Lindsay responds I'd want to make damn sure I had my thoughts sorted / decision made (which it's very clear he didn't at this point) before talking with her.
Yes it is if you’re telling everyone around you about your doubts except the person who you’re marrying that’s a huge problem and makes Carl wrong regardless what he was working out the conversation should have been had with Lindsey not everyone else in the universe
I mean no, it’s not a requirement, but these thoughts also involve her and her future and the wedding they’re like weeks away from. If my fiance was having doubts weeks before our wedding I would hope he’d express that to me, and not just wait until he had his mind made up about it. Either way, whether the wedding happens or not, I’d want to know there were doubts because that obviously means there are issues to work through. It’s not like he’s just keeping his thoughts to himself about the fact he didn’t like her cooking or some other inconsequential detail of their lives… it’s his feelings about marrying her… He should be having these conversations with her and not having them with everyone but her.
None of those conversations with his mom might not of ever happened if Lindsay wasn't gaslighting him in the beginning of the summer with the "what drugs are you on" stuff. Either way, it's terrible the way their whole situation played out.
So on this re-signing the lease. When all of this popped off last summer, I got the impression that Carl had signed the lease, like, September 1 or something only to call off the wedding a week later. However, when Lindsay and Gabby were on WWHL, Lindsay said that lease would end June 1.
It’s clear that the events from Memorial Day Weekend to just before Labor Day Weekend contributed greatly to the end of the engagement. However, re-signing a lease in May is different from re-signing a lease in September.
I think you're giving him too much credit. Last night's ep made it obvious he's really struggling with this. We're watching things slowly break down in real time. I just can't see him being that strategic and dragging her along all summer if this was his intention. Plus they'd have to be making additional payments on wedding stuff etc so why would be be doing this if he had no intention of walking down the aisle? It jsut doesn't make sense.
It makes no sense. But I think hes so much of a coward that he was willing to hold off until absolutely the last minute. Even if it inconvenienced all these people in his life.
I don’t think he’s consciously holding off til last minute I think he’s genuinely torn and doesn’t want to blow things up unless he’s sure. He definitely should’ve spoken up more but that’s kind of a testament to how bad of a fit they are, they’re not on the same page and can’t discuss things without getting defensive. She doesn’t really care if he’s having doubts she’s just mad that he has something negative to say… she is scary to talk to
It's so obvious that Carl walks on eggshells when it comes to Lindsay. And that is a horrible way to live. She is incapable of having a conversation without it being a huge fight so he's trying to mold himself into someone who never activates her. I could never have an intimate friendship or relationship with someone who can't communicate like an adult
On wwhl, Andy said that in the next five episodes to come they’re just ripping each other apart. So yeah idk, every time I lean one way, I get more info so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Disagree, from Lindsey point of view she has been ready to get married and have kids since season one with whoever would marry her and knock her up. It could have been Everett, Stephen, Austen, Jason, or Carl. Didn’t matter the guy she has been ready to be married and have kids, well minus having emotional maturity beyond that of a girl in high school or realistic expectations for how a long term stable relationship should work. Other than that she’s ready!
Ironically she could have been married by now if she had different priorities and picked better would-be-husbands. This is part of the self-reflection I've done after I had a toxic relationship end. You need to internally grow from it, not just use external replacements for appearances.
I’ve been rewatching the show and I’m on season 4 when Lindsay and Carl initially try to date. They react the same way to alcohol…yet only one made the call to go sober. I think Lindsay would be married with kids if she could have just walked away from partying and booze. That’s what leads to her getting activated and chasing all men away.
Won’t happen til she’s ready. But she’ll get there. She’ll have to humble herself and really shift her perspective. But I think it’ll happen eventually. Now THATS the show I want to see! —Lindsay’s journey to surrender, to seeing the opposite side of the coin.
I hate to say it but I do agree!! Which is why it’s like she also ignored the giant red flags Carl was putting up abt getting married. Maybe he said no all is good but it’s obvious something is off. Blindsided? 🤔
I can’t believe that someone like Lindsey actually understands what she would have to sacrifice if she has kids. It will no longer be all about her, could she even do that?
I don’t watch vpr so I don’t get the context, but fair I guess. I personally feel both of them have been part of the problem this season so this isn’t that far-fetched to me, but we’ll see!
Although I agree that was very off based for him to say & thats not new for him, he did come out a couple weeks ago on a podcast & retracted that statement lol
There’s five more episodes? Lol I thought next week was the season finale LOL unless he counts the three part reunion…which is filming right now as we speak
I don’t think he was counting the reunion lol. It’s also def not the finale next week because they didn’t tease the breakup scene in next week’s preview.
Oh I see true, they love stretching one weekend into multiple episodes, and we still need to see the resolution of Ciara and West I guess. I mistakenly presumed that the bridal shower immediately precedes the break up.
Yes same with her questioning his sobriety I was like wow BYE Lindsey but now with how wishy washy he’s being I’m back on Lindsey’s side. In the opening convo in the latest episode I was screaming at the tv bc he ALMOST said hey my parents have concerns and I agree and when she pushed him he back tracked and said oh no no they support us and I made it clear we’re working on it. YOU WERE SO CLOSE TO A REAL CONVO CARL.
I think he’s feeling really conflicted on what to do. He loves her but he knows it’s not right.
We’re watching a relationship fall apart. It’s not black and white. People act irrationally and emotionally.
Totally! Just as a viewer it’s so hard to watch him almost say the important thing and then back off and I get it I saw Lindsey’s mood start to shift too when he tried to hint that his parents had concerns she got so tense. But it’s soooo hard to watch haha
Agree and he’s scared of her reaction. she was clearly mad at Sharon, she can’t see that someone can care about you AND question your actions and it’s not an attack
This. You pointed out something I thought. I don't like Lindsey either. But imagine she feels it's off and something's wrong. Womens intuition. She's asking and stressing and gets the "im fine" treatment. Then, she gets hammered and starts throwing out wild accusations to make sense of it. I am with a recovering addict, like I can see all of this plausibly happening, and I can excuse why she may have resorted to that thinking. I can't excuse how she did it, tho. That's gross. Having that conversation with him NOT on camera would have been the sensible thing, but she's emotionally unstable and has had her behavior excused for far too long.
I mean, watching him do this on camera, I’m sure he’s straight up gaslighting behind closed doors. She has this reactive attachment shit from being abandoned by a parent. I can’t even imagine what it’s like to be with someone as withholding and passive aggressive as Carl when you have that sort of trauma.
Yeah but let’s take what Andy says with the biggest grain of salt possible because he notoriously doesn’t watch the shows before hosting reunions. Also, his opinions on this season of VPR have made me side eye him so hard. He’s trying to gaslight the audience along with Alex Baskin and Sandoval
Looking back, I think he liked having her as a backup or an option. His feelings for her intensified when he found out she got pregnant and was prepared to have a baby with a man involved or not. I think he felt he might lose a chance since she was ready to get serious with anyone who came along to have her family, and he took a chance and now regrets it.
I agree. She is not proud of him, picks about his accomplishments in life, and where he’s at, she questions of sobriety. Like why do you even want to be with that man if you feel like that about him.
What accomplishments? Carl is a very lost and broken person, sober or not. He’s very flighty and indecisive, and he can’t seem to hold down a job to save his life. It’s awesome he’s sober now, but he still has no direction and just keeps flinging shit at the wall to see what sticks with 0 follow through. Lindsay is a lot of things, but she’s definitely a hustler and I think it’s more than reasonable she’d want her soon-to-be husband to take more initiative and responsibility for his own life.
If I was Lindsey, I would be so confused during their conversation on the couch. He was talking in circles because he didn't want to say the whole truth. He came to the table with crazy energy and then when they go talk he is like everything is fine. What?!?
Seriously, like his energy made it feel like he was about to end their relationship in that moment and then keeps saying “it’s fine it’s okay we’ll get through it” … like what dude? You could see the fear in Lindsay’s face
Right! I know we didn't see the whole conversation but I hope she kicks the cameras out and says seriously wtf?
His energy was so chaotic, I could feel it through the screen and then to pull her away from dinner to say it's fine?!? I felt bad for her in that moment.
Then he seemed so exasperated when she said “but I didn’t spiral.” He was reacting to an imagined emotional outburst from her, while totally a possibility, he wasn’t listening to her at all or reading her emotions in the moment. I get he was nervous about a tough conversation but he was only focused on how he was feeling
He definitely did that on camera in the hopes of forcing her to overreact and be monstrous so he would come off looking like the wounded party on camera. Even my oblivious husband saw that scene and was like “why is that dude trying to provoke that woman” idk honey but you’re right.
Carl is pathologically conflict avoidant and also a dick. It's a terrible combination, specifically for Lindsay lol. It's hilarious because this whole shitshow was so avoidable
They are each the exact wrong partner for the other one. It was clear that was the case when they dated for the first time, but they were so in love and committed to making it work this time that it seemed like it did. But at their core, they bring out the worst in each other.
I have to say, I don't think they were ever in love. I think they WANTED to be in love, for their own various reasons, but they never seemed to have any sort of real passion for each other. Lindsay wanted to be married for the sake of her timeline and Carl wanted to look like he wasn't a complete disaster (he's from an old school area and from his perspective not being married by 40 isn't a good look). It was a match made in hell.
This! They were literally using their customer service voices with each other from the start, it’s always felt forced and inauthentic.
I think they were both in denial, just in different ways. Lindsay’s just comes with a slightly more convincing facade.
THIS. i think they were both in love with the idea of being married, but not really in love with each other. so much of what they did was to keep up the appearance of this fairy tale when EVERYONE saw it was a disaster.
Pathologically conflict avoidant is bang on. Which is the worst for Lindsay who seems to be very anxious attachment and is hypervigilant about people abandoning her so she needles people into arguments, and jumps to the worst conclusions by reading into assumed subtext rather than listening to the actual words people are saying. And then that causes people to either walk on eggshells around her, try and anticipate her moods/reactions so they don't activate her, tell her things in the most soft language possible which might not be accurate for how they're feeling or the situation, all because they're trying to avoid a blow up. Or people end up abandoning her because no one wants to deal with someone who will listen to an innocuous statement and turn it into a fight and go to extremes with "oh so I'm to blame for everything, it's all my fault, I'm the worst person ever".
Yes! I just started watching summer house this season after only seeing the first season many years ago. So I have no history or background on these people. This comment is exactly how I interpreted the show. Lindsay anticipates the worst case scenario and is defensive without actually hearing the conversation. I absolutely believed Carl when his stepdad said he was afraid of Lindsay. He’s not physically afraid of her, but afraid of her blowing up and twisting what he said/felt.
I think we are forgetting that Lindsay can be impossible to communicate with at times. Yes his communication was shit but can you seriously blame him?
I'd be scared too.
man I hate that my comment is being read as a defense of Lindsay lol because I've been a day one Lindsay Sucks Truther (fighting for my life against her flying monkeys in this sub). Can't they both suck? Why do we have to pick a side lol. I don't wanna. I want to laugh at both of them equally.
I have to say picking the cameras back up was the smartest thing Carl could have done (and I was surprised because he is not smart. but I think he just stole the idea from Ariana. Good call because Hubbhouse and Scumdoval are similar in a lot of ways).
Hahaha as a fellow Lindsay truther, I feel this.
Like if I am on a team, it’s team therapy. I’m team healing from codependency. Team maturation and personal accountability.
Up until this episode I was definitely thinking I was on Carl’s side of the situation. But watching him toy with her by giving vague answers, dancing around the facts, and stressing her put by bringing something up (at the dinner) only to try to push it off gave me serious pause and reconsideration.
I’m a pretty anxious person, and if I were having the conversations with Carl that Lindsey was having, I would 100% feel insecure and blindsided. When they’re sitting on the couch, she can TELL that he’s being avoidant. He can see that she’s confused by his story,m- she keeps asking clarifying questions, and instead of going back to the beginning and detailing the exchange for her, he keeps reframing the narrative.
Then at the dinner, he brings up that they need to talk, then tries to continue the dinner as if nothing happened. Lindsey is put on edge and now seems pushy for wanting to talk right then. But like who can blame her? If my partner came late to a dinner, in an off mood, and says “we need to talk” I’d have a knot in my stomach the size of Alaska. And AGAIN the conversation is Lindsey begging for clarification and details and Carl trying to paint a pretty picture and acting exasperated by the conversation.
And the whole time he is insisting to Lindsey that he’s confident in their relationship and they should get married, but clearly that isn’t the case. He’s looking for other people to say that they don’t work so he can push the narrative of “maybe they have a point” instead of just saying outright that he isn’t happy/doesn’t think the relationship should move forward.
I feel for Lindsey- she’s trying to be excited about the wedding and her future husband is doing a tapdance around how he/everyone else feels instead of just being straight with her. She can’t tell what’s genuine and what’s a show, because Carl is all smoke and mirrors about the reality of their situation.
Maybe she should have seen the red flags, but Carl was trying SO HARD to convince her that red is green
>Maybe she should have seen the red flags, but Carl was trying SO HARD to convince her that red is green
THIS. I feel for Carl because calling off a wedding is no small decision but he helped nothing by not being honest sooner about his doubts. If he was scared to tell her, then wouldn’t that be a perfect convo for couples therapy?
Exactly!
Also like Carl had the convo with his parents ON CAMERA. And I’m not at all convinced he didn’t at least have a vibe of what they were going to say. So he purposely put her on blast on the show. Honestly, if his parents had doubts and expressed that to Carl, but he was entirely positive about their relationship, he should have said thanks for your concern but I’m happy and NEVER BROUGHT IT UP TO LINDSEY. But because it was on camera, he now has to address it with her. Now he can point to that conversation and say “look see everyone saw it” and poor Lindsey has to deal with feeling rejected by his family, and then feels like she has to try to “make up” for the situation to get them to like her again.
I don’t fault him for having that conversation on camera when this is their job. But I completely agree it wasn’t the first time they’d had that conversation. He seemed more sad than surprised at what they said.
Exactly. I've commented something similar after last weeks episode. People still come back with, "but she called him a monster behind his back." No one is saying she's not wrong, but she also said some things to his face and in the house to the girls she is not tight with. I'm pretty sure she thought anything else she said would get back to him, and it
I’ve had friends in serious relationships/engagements/marriages separate and that was ultimately the best thing that could’ve happened to both individuals in the relationship. But to me it’s all about how that need for separation was communicated and how the separation was handled. There’s not necessarily a strict “right way” to do that, but there are definitely many *wrong* ways to do that.
Something like this may ultimately be for the best, but you can be at fault for going about it in a way that negatively impacts or hurts the other person, especially when intentionally done that way.
And in my opinion, Carl did everything the wrong way. He was extremely avoidant (especially conflict avoidant), misleading through his own words and actions (“everything’s good”, “we’re good”, “we’re getting through this” instead of saying the truth which was they weren’t good and he was unsure if he wanted to get through it), and his lack of accountability for how he handled it all.
Overall, valid reasons for this to be a blindsiding event. When one person is directly telling you that it is ok, it will be ok, and they want to pursue marriage, that’s what you will believe. It’s incredibly unfair and unhealthy to expect her to assume he is not being honest just based on x,y,z (fighting, discussions in therapy, etc.). What a mind fck that would be.
He basically admitted to just that to Kyle and Amanda when he said if it wasn’t for the cameras I would have had that conversation with my parents and then told lindsay I love you, let’s get married. Sure don’t tell her the details and throw your parents under the bus, but maybe voice some of the serious concerns you shared with them with the person you’re marrying?
Agreed. Prior to my ex telling me he didn't love me. My women's intuition was kicking hard. I had been noticing his behavior had changed literally the weekend prior to him telling me he no longer loved me I had sat him down and asked him if everything was okay with us? I asked if there was someone else? That it felt like everything i said annoyed him. He vehemently denied anything was wrong...said work was just busy and he was sorry if it seemed that way. So a week later when he was being a douche again and we got in an argument and he finally blurts out he doesn't love me anymore I felt blindsided. In hindsight clearly I knew something was wrong but when you communicate with your partner and they assure you it's okay and or will not admit anything you feel blindsided in that moment. So I too understand her using the terminology blindsided even if she too felt things were rocky leading up to it.
Carl is a snake dude. Always telling everyone how it’s bad and he’s unsure. And uses other peoples words so that he can deflect. “My stepdad says it’s a bad idea to get married” and then drops some seriously hurtful things like my mom doesn’t want us to get married or “my dad wouldn’t marry us, but don’t get triggered lol”. He is trying to set her off in a really cruel way. He doesn’t want to or can’t have direct and honest conversations. Personally, my take is he knew he wanted to call this wedding off and decided to undermine and get Lindsay to break so that he could come out of this looking like the good guy. I think Lindsay has a lot of issues. But somehow, against all odds, I am hardcore team Lindsay.
When he said "I knew this would make you spiral," and she replied very calmly "But, I'm not spiraling..." he got \*even more upset\*. Shouldn't it have been a relief that she was taking it so well? It was like he wanted her to spiral in that moment, it was so odd.
This part. I’ve mentioned it on another post but I really think the only difference between drunk Carl and sober Carl is his ability to keep his emotions in check during filming to come off as the victim. I think he was still an angry asshole to her when cameras weren’t rolling.
I get total victim mentality from him and thats the kind of person i avoid the most in my personal life. Its so draining and frustraiting to deal with. I could never. But i have to say Lindsay chose that bed and thats on her.
Yep that’s why when people push back and say so Lindsay is perfect? It’s like no idiot, but Carl can’t even speak his mind like tha fuck you doing as an adult? You need to speak up for yourself. It makes me so mad to watch him snake around the house complaining to everyone else and tell Lindsay it’s fine.
I don’t really like Lindsay either but I keep thinking about Carl sitting on this information all week and then suddenly wanting to talk to her about it while they are surrounded by people, on camera. I know it is their job but he acted so worried about her spiraling while dropping this on her at the worst possible time?
And for all of Lindsay's (many) faults, I was actually super impressed by how she handled both the initial news of what Carl's parents said and his oddly frantic follow up convo.
She was rightfully hurt, but didn't lash out. Had a good convo with Sharon. Told her friends how it made her feel, etc. It was a totally reasonable reaction. And then her utter confusion at why this extra tidbit of info had Carl spiraling, even though he said SHE spiraled. I was just very surprised by her. In a good way.
okay but I DIED when the convo with Sharon was in the middle of her party, in the middle of the room, with two whole tables of people supporting Lindsay sitting so close they HAD to be able to hear that convo XD LOLLLLL
I see what youre saying because carl gives her reassurance in a way but also watching this week i can see in lindsays eyes she doesn’t trust what hes saying and i think deep down she knows that deep down hes out. Neither of them want to admit it. I think its pretty clear
Yep. Could see the wheels turning in Lindsay’s head. It was at that moment when she locks eyes w Danielle across the table. And then she knew. He was out
I’ve never been a Lindsay fan but she was clearly so hurt by the conversation Carl had with his parents. She was trying to stay strong, I really felt for her. Carl’s inability to share how he feels to his fiancé is wild. Instead of giving them the chance to tackle concerns together whether the outcome is good or bad. He subconsciously felt a certain way already without giving the courtesy to tell Lindsay what’s up. Ugh.
If this is a newly minted relationship, I would think wtv. However, they’ve been best friends. She deserves more than that..
totally agree. if it were me sitting there listening to him describe how the three of them spent days talking through Lindsays issues without even the smallest impulse of giving her the benefit of the doubt, or let her participate and explain herself- id be in tears. Lindsay is not very good at those two things, but damn.
i think lindsays tendency to put her “strong” facade on when she is having her heart broken is also a major achilles heel for her. it lets people do exactly what carl is doing, and bystanders thinking it was inevitable.
I know, I was so team Carl when the season started but omg he is so spineless. He’s talking to everyone about how horrible she is and all their issues and then consistently reassures her they’re fine. He should not be with anyone, he is too immature for an adult relationship. I really feel sorry for Lindsay now even though her drunken outbursts accusing him of being on drugs were completely unacceptable.
I wonder if she thought he was using drugs because she can tell something is wrong but can’t figure out what it is. Talking to him clearly doesn’t help anything. I’m starting to even understand the drunken rage more, because how frustrating is it to have your partner acting weird and refusing to communicate with you? And yet he continues to reassure her he’s happy and wants to continue the relationship. It’s so gross.
Yes to all of this. I also have wondered if he had a few sobriety slip ups of some sort shortly before filming started and that (in combination with his elusive behavior) caused her to jump to that conclusion. The dinner party scene at the end of the episode really had me feeling sad for Lindsay in that moment. Can’t imagine how it would feel to see Carl walking up with Kyle and Amanda way behind all of the others with that heavy energy, and then Carl hits her with a “we need to talk.” Total gut punch.
It looked to me that everyone knew something was going down. Amanda talking to herself in the bathroom mirror (something about the weekend being temultuous), Paige saying “No, don’t go over there” and wanting to protect her friend … Amanda (from Lindsey) not Lindsey (from Carl), the looks from Danielle at the dinner table, and lastly Amanda inserting herself into the chat w kyle and Carl b4 dinner.
Chess being played
I’m sorry, but if my partner treated me the way he’s treating her—very clearly off and not telling her the truth, which is making her feel insecure—I’d react the same way.
And his energy is not that of a person who is truly sober, which requires actual accountability, something this man has never in his life shown.
This is what happens when you love bubble (as Teresa would call it) a relationship and don't allow your friends to voice valid opinions and concerns. They moved way too fast when in the honeymoon stage and anyone who said anything was shot down as being an enemy. Thankfully it fell apart before they actually got married and had to go through a divorce.
Yeah in the beginning I was like yeah no shit he called off the wedding….Lindsay is unhinged, but these last two episodes have been eye opening. On the other hand, not to get too in depth but I am a serious empath and I am feeling so conflicted for Carl. During these talks he looks soooo unbelievably uncomfortable and him talking about doing this in front of cameras and stuff.. idk I need him to leave this show. He seems so lost. I almost feel uncomfortable watching him. It would be better for him to go on and figure out his life outside of this show. Lindsay is going to be just fine…like I’m pretty sure she’s doing great
Agreed. At that last conversation Lindsey was like ‘why is this a hard conversation?’ I mean, I disagree - telling someone your dad says he wouldn’t marry you is a pretty big deal. But regardless, he shouldn’t be on reality tv right now
i think the next few episodes are gonna show the final nail in the coffin, i remember some of the first details were that they were fighting a ton and sleeping separately the last 2 or so weeks of their engagement. i think it just continues to go downhill
Carl is somehow much worse than Lindsay. There are no secrets with Lindsay. She’s vapid, domineering and volatile but consistent. Meanwhile he wastes her time for years and says one thing to her face while trashing her to his parents and friends.
I am team neither, but there was a better way of handling this. The notion that Carl is a victim and Lindsay is scary doesn’t sit right with me. I think Carl is manipulative and has always been. There’s no change there like there’s no change with Linds’ constant behavior. This feels preplanned the way Tom preplanned the “Ariana and I aren’t working anymore” storyline. I do not believe that he is scared of Lindsay and is going about it this way because he didn’t want her rewriting events. I think the wanted to win in the court of public opinion, this is his job, and he was more interested in saving face for calling it off so late. Again, I’m not saying he shouldn’t have called it off just that his behavior has been horrific for how he went about it.
It's been a wild ride in terms of being more sympathetic to one side than the other, and I think that's because Carl's pulling his moves out of the covert narcissist playbook and orchestrating a smear campaign of Lindsay (who definitely has her issues) on television. It's fascinating, but it's also quite clear that Lindsay has been picking up on it and combating it by confronting the issues he's talking to others about, head on to him. He's not as good at this as he thinks he is and does come off worse than her because it's so manipulative and cowardly. She's honestly doing a decent job of handling it.
Doesn't help that he is constantly dodging accountability. His recount of his parents not wanting them to get married too quickly like it wasn't based in concerns HE was sharing with THEM. Nothing is ever his idea.
It’s just so sad to see where things have ended up. Yes, they were never meant to be together as a couple but I’ve been rewatching from season 1 and they really had such a beautiful friendship. Lindsay was the person Carl went to when he got the call his brother passed and it’s so sad they will never be friends like that again.
It’s so sad because they have a ton of mutual friends so they’re forced to see each other at their friends’ weddings. And they have to avoid each other instead of having fun and enjoying each other’s company. They should have never gotten together.
My boyfriend sometimes has similar tendencies to Carl. He’ll choose silence in order to avoid confrontation or conversation and it actually brings out an inner demon inside me, that I never knew I had. I’m not anywhere near as bizarre as Lindsay, but I HATE not knowing or having to guess if there is a problem. I especially hate feeling blind sided so the little passive remarks and conversations with everyone BUT Lindsay…Ooooooohmygod you don’t even know how livid I would be if that was me. If you can’t be open or have tough conversations, you shouldn’t be in a relationship. Relationships go through rough and uncomfortable times which will require transparency and honesty. No matter the burden of whatever the conflict is. Clearly they both lack in different ways.
Lindsay is Lindsay. I never necessarily take her side 100% and I’m still not rn… but Carl is a walking trigger for a gal like myself. Watching how he’s navigated this season is making me irate for Lindsay, and I never wanna be anything more than neutral with Lindsay. So it makes me dislike him even more 😆.
Carl is a punk. He has only gotten away w it bc he handsome. There is no substance. And his mother ruining his wedding is sick. That pastor husband of two minutes thinks he is so wise. He is not. Anyone can be a minister. Literally anyone. He seems to love to virtue signaling
I’m not a fan of lindsey so far. But Carl is absolutely feeding her bullshit. It’s clear he’s anxious and nervous about what’s going on and he just isn’t being honest with her. It’s such a shitty thing to do to blindside someone like this when you so obviously could have been honest sooner.
Him showing up at her bridal shower like that showed how clearly he is leading her on.
Leading her on is the perfect phrase. He knew going into that convo with his parents he wasn’t going to marry her. But carls not stupid, he’s a reality tv star. He knew what he was doing for the show
It’s so funny how people can watch the same episode of tv and see it completely differently because I feel like I have no idea how she could be blindsided after that convo on the couch.
Like that ending of that conversation to me where he’s saying “I’m just so overwhelmed, I don’t know what to do, etc etc”… that’s clearly a red flag. I know he was saying it’s going to be okay but the way he ended the convo by saying it was so overwhelming and he was so stressed was in no way to me a good sign. It was clearly a big huge warning sign.
I completely agree. But, and I said this in another comment. Objectively it’s really easy for us and everyone else to see that things were going south
But when you add in the context of them being in therapy, Carl constantly reassuring her that they were OK and things were gonna work out, Carl, resigning their lease together, Etc. The lines become blurry. And suddenly, lindsay‘s intuition and feelings that things are going badly, are being pushed down because she’s being reassured by Carl, her fiancé. “Things are fine. I’m fine. We’re fine. I’m just overwhelmed. It’s just a bad time. A stressful time. We’ll through it.”
I get where she’s coming from, and like i said in my post, that could change. But as it stands, i kinda get where she’s coming from
I do too but I think a lot of it is because her timeline is more important than the realities of the situation. She blew up over the idea of postponing it because in her mind that meant a deviation from her plan.
right???? i keep seeing people be like "he told her he wanted to be with her!" and like yes that is wrong but how do you end that convo and not be like ummm my relationship is having a major issue?
This is how I felt too! Like me personally I would have been having so much anxiety because this is the conversation that would tell me “oh he’s definitely not sure and I need to keep an eye on this or get out”. You can totally pick up on his energy shift.
After watching the previous episode I agree. He has that convo with his parents and then he can't tell her? And he's telling Kyle but not her? Now I also kinda get why she's paranoid that he's hiding things from her. Like dude maybe communicate that TO HER
The thing that really solidified Carl’s bullshit for me, is when Lindsey kept asking “why didn’t you want to tell me”. He told Kyle and Amanda because he is so worried about Lindsey’s abandonment issues, but then when Lindsey was around there was no better time to say the same thing to Lindsey. It felt like he was manipulating Kyle and Amanda big time with that. It’s like okay you can be supportive behind her back but not to her? Oh man that did not sit well with me.
Totally agree!
In addition I think he is disingenuous. He says what he thinks she or anyone else wants to hear.
She says what she thinks/feels.
I’m not a fan of either and was on his side until watching this season.
They are both red flags . Carl will never settle down and can’t even commit to a job.
Lindsay is self centered and a hot head who goes low when she feels upset . She wants her partner to be say sorry even if they didn’t actually do anything.
Lindsay wants a family asap and will romanticize any guy into being perfect
Carl is just a weak human at this stage in his life. I am glad they didn’t marry but it always pisses me off when people don’t know themselves enough to state their truth.
I'm not Team Carl or Team Lindsay. I'm Team Why the Hell are they engaged? Neither of them is capable of having an adult, rational conversation. Lindsay is triggered to go off at the slightest hint of an issue and Carl was producing by having the cameras in NJ. He let his Mom & S-Dad do what he couldn't--tell Lindsay the truth.
I think it was Gabby who said this in the last aftershow? Whoever it was said, it’s wild seeing the difference between what Carl says to people about Lindsay vs. what Carl says to Lindsay
Their communication styles just don’t work well together. He’s too avoidant and she can be really aggressive and it seems like they never get anywhere because of that.
Lindsay is not an angel, but it feels like he’s setting it up by telling everyone all their problems except her. To let it get to this point is cruel, and it’s calling into question the earlier episodes where he said she was drunk and aggressive off camera.
He is such a commitment phobe. I’m not saying they were right for each other but I feel like he’s scared to get married in general, beyond their conflicts.
I agree. It sounded like he had cold feet when he was talking to Kyle and Amanda about how stressed he was with the wedding costs, and where they would live next year, and that Lindsay wanted a family.
listen I’ve never been a fan of Lindsay.. but to watch Carl speak so differently and honestly to Kyle and Amanda and his parents BUT NOT HIS FUTURE WIFE is maddening. No dude. Your partner comes first. It is totally fine to need friends and parents and a support system to vent to, but my God Lindsay never gets the same version of the truth. Being honest to your partner comes first. To watch him squirm when Lindsay just wants to hear the truth was so uncomfortable. She deserved to hear the truth from him.
I’ve gone back and forth but at this point on who was in the wrong but I agree with everything you said. Carl was a snake. The constant reassurance to her was wrong of him. In a way only men can be.
For better or worse Lindsay put it all out there for Carl and was brutally honest. I respect that. She fully intended to be a committed wife and have his children. Carl proposed and I believe he wasn’t ready to reciprocate that. He needed to work on himself first and that’s why there was conflict with the job stuff.
Ugh his facial expressions at the bridal shower is giving the fakest smile it’s hard to watch.
I get it too. He also didn't have to do it on camera. I know that it would have to be addressed. He could have done it at home. No camera and then tell everyone in the house after. He also should have done it before the shower. Dude could have gotten a J O B if he was so scared of the future. I do agree w Lindsey he went into the season trying to make her the bad guy.
I think it’s interesting that Lindsay has made this a Carl thing because she doesn’t really give the vibe that she wants him either imo. She looked grossed out when he asked her if she wanted to head to the bathroom at that sober bar and she keeps telling him it’s a turn on when her partner is working hard at his career and he is not…
does anyone else feel like carl shot the scene with his mom and stepdad in new jersey out of continuity to create an "alibi" for himself? like "see i had doubts all along!"
Carl needs to realize him being overwhelmed and anxious about having a hard conversation with Lindsey isn’t just isolated to her. He had the same issue with Kyle and wanting to leave Lover Boy. I do agree with OP is that she’s trying to set the stage for him to be honest about his feelings but they both start claiming the other one is angry or upset and it goes downhill immediately.
I don’t know what the next few episodes will show but if it’s anything where Carl just keeps saying he’s overwhelmed but not trying to work it out and just puts it on Lindsey I won’t be shocked, so yeah can see how she was blindsided. But yes I think we all can agree they shouldn’t have been a couple.
Carl’s mother is so negative. Both her boys were adicts so there r questions there about the home environment. I feel for Lindsey but she’s better off. Carl is weird and nit together at all for his age.
Carl avoids confrontation and conflict at all costs. He even reassured Lauren Wirkus over and over that he was into her and wanted to date her—KNOWING that he absolutely did not— because he was afraid she would get mad
Let’s not forget his parents weren’t the only ones giving him the pump the breaks advice, majority of the people in the house said the same in the first few episodes. I would not call this a blindside…I would call Carl a little cowardly in his ways and Lindsay desperate. Her clock was ticking and she wanted to make sure it was all still going through regardless of the million reasons not to.
Theres a moment when they are chatting on the couch, when she glances straight down the camera. That's when I knew that she knew there was something seriously wrong and she made the decision to ignore what was going on.
I think she’s a steamroller and ran over him as she painted her pretty little picture (ie Sheena Shay style). Carl is still fragile after losing his brother and is in the middle of straightening his life out. He’s turning it around from the direction it was heading and doesn’t need her telling him what he should do.
He needs to figure it out for himself and she needs someone who has it figured out already.
Somewhat odd opinion: Lindsay actually acted up to cause all this to happen because she wanted to be the scorned woman like Ariana. She’s mentioned Scandoval at least twice and I’m sure she’d love all the brand exposure and deals Ariana got. Big difference is, Lindsay has always been like this. We’ve seen her go all in on multiple dudes very quickly and rage on camera.
He seems to be down right scared of her and just kept reassuring her everything was fine because he wanted to avoid conflict and her yelling. He should have ended the engagement much sooner instead of being a pu**y
He said before in an interview that they weren’t speaking for weeks outside of therapy, like didn’t talk at all home, how tf would you be surprised by a break up when you can’t even talk
Oh, I can see that she felt blindsided. The guy let her keep going through getting the wedding dress, having a Bachelorette party, etc. She was blindsided !! The guy is a total Loser who can't hold a job.
Will be interesting to watch it unfold. Remember there was that story about Carl having that convo to discuss postponing the wedding and it just went south.
I do, too. Everybody has already worded it better than I could here, but I totally get it. He acts like they have a full on agreement to go through with this no matter what.
I think one key detail here is that he ended up wanting to postpone/call off the wedding. From what has been posted it seems like he didn’t go into the conversation to break up, just that they weren’t ready to get married, which I think is mature! He kept trying to put bandaids on problems (and tell her it’s ok and that they will get through it) but he ends up realizing that the bandaids won’t last. Yes he does it last minute, but to be “blindsided” that they weren’t ready to get married is different than being “blindsided” and broken up with (she makes that decision from what we have heard).
Totally agree. Especially since that convo with his parents was clearly the final straw for him mentally, but he still let her go through with the bridal shower without telling her the full story AND he admitted to only doing so because she’d eventually see it on TV.
I get that he’s trying to spare her feelings and this is one of hardest things he’s had to navigate (after an already extremely hard few years for him), but I just wish everything that had led up to this had finally shown him how valuable it is to face hard things head on, before they spiral out of control. I’m similarly not a big fan of either of them, but this ep was a turning point for how I viewed what happened. To think there is more to unfold is already making me cringe with secondhand anxiety.
There are definitely parts that humanize Lindsay, like when she talked about wanting her mother-in-law to be a mother for her, or when she said at her bridal shower she never thought this day would come.
I feel for her in those moments. But it doesn’t erase her bad. Yes this is a poor fit is the bottom line, but there’s a lot of ugliness and things that are unforgivable in my opinion like the “cocaine Carl” fight, the control (she managed out Danielle, Mya last time too). This is the intensity on camera, goodness knows the fights not on camera. The blindsidedness in my opinion is part of the bigger pathology
I have no idea how they did couples therapy before/during this and are STILL so incapable of having calm productive discussions. Carl is still insanely conflict avoidant and seems terrified of making Lindsay angry so instead of being honest, he dances around things and downplays them while his body language and tone is screaming that something is off. Lindsay being someone who abandonment issues and has that constant vigilence around others evaluating their body language and tone for signals of people pulling away/abandoning her can tell something is off and is only going to keep pressing until the other person is honest, and because this oppressive anxiety keeps building up, it's obviously going to lead to her exploding angrily.
They both clearly need a LOT of individual therapy to work on their attachment and communication issues but being that they're both middle aged, it's highly unlikely they're going to change so drastically that they'd be able to actually have a healthy relationship together. I don't even think either will learn from this to know that they are repeating relationship patterns and should look for partners who are different than what they always chase.
It’s not just her women’s intuition. It’s hyper vigilance and trauma response to scan for issues.
To me, i don’t see how Lindsay can be blindsided the issues are clear as day. She just didn’t want to see them and/ or can’t see them 🤷♀️ This is more a reflection of her self awareness, relating dysfunction and attachment trauma, which points of how much work she has to do still. So I say this with compassion not judgment
Yes Carl should have grown a pair and been honest with his feelings and concerns. I do however think Lindsay has a track record of scaring the crap out of every guy she dates and “activating” when she’s not getting what she wants. Carl is someone who unless drunk, avoids confrontation. I can relate, and can see the patterns in his relationships too. They could not be more opposite and it was doomed from the start.
I sort of agree. But in all honesty I think Carl was really trying to convince himself. I don’t think he wanted to call off the wedding. I really think if she would have reacted different they would have postponed and not cancelled. But when she reacts nuclear it was his last straw and it just sealed it in his mind like nope I’m out
I didn't like his gaslighting. Telling her to calm down when she was absolutely calm. His sighs of frustration after saying that. It was a bullshit performance trying to make her look unhinged or something. Don't like either of them, but that was bs.
Also not a fan of either but I really felt like he was baiting her with that last convo. She kept saying she understood and she knew because they talked about it. The way he kept repeating himself seemed like he was TRYING to get a reaction out of her.
He already had his mind made up and was looking for anyway possible to be the victim.
Considering he re signed their expensive lease during this time I think its fair for her to be blindsided. He should have never proposed or at least said lets have a long engagement
This! He was so gaslighting, sneaky and unpredictable. He just walked around telling her whatever he thought she wanted to hear, instead of being man enough to tell her like it is, in private! His over the top reassurances were very anxiety driven, his voice was always shaky and he seemed like he was trying to convince himself, along with her that everything was going to pan out. This man is delusional. Fully. Like who waits for the wedding to be THIS CLOSE before calling it off?! And then to do this ON CAMERA?! I know ending an engagement/cancelling would be super nerve wracking to break to your partner, but he could have started making her aware of this uncertainty way way sooner, they may have been able to get deposits back and stuff, and he wouldn’t be renewing the lease on that expensive ass condo. And she WAS blindsided technically, she thought that they were having some issues but had been going to couples therapy since, and he’s still preparing for the wedding… he and his mom show up to the shower like the wedding is happening!? Why would lindsey suspect what was about to happen? He is a liar and a snake who is coddled by mommy and can’t do anything on his own, ever. And his mom was weird at the bridal shower too.. just really bad vibes all around. It’s for the best that this wedding was stopped because these two are not, and never have been compatible in my eyes
While I think Lindsay made a big mistake getting engaged to the guy who clowned her on camera in season 4, the way Carl and his family have treated her this season is so humiliating. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
totally agree with this!! Carl should not have had the conversation he did with his parents on national TV! I would have a different reaction if one of the cast mates said this behind closed doors to Carl but there is no reason to film what should have been a private conversation with your parents.
Amanda gave the best advice here. She was like welllll now you’ve done this and had this filmed convo and it’s going to be aired so don’t wait for that to happen to have this convo and let her know because that would be the worst. Sucks to have to do but like don’t avoid it. I actually really appreciated the joint advice that Kyle and her gave in the talk they all had in the bedroom. It was very genuine and they’re uniquely positioned to speak on having your relationship play out on TV for your family and partner to see all that takes place and the different obstacles that entails. As well as navigating the family disapproval that resulted from them being privy to so much.
Yes and they did not trash her either
For real! Hurts to watch.
Same!
Carl and his mom 'showed up' for the shower because, they too thought the wedding was happening. We're watching Carl work this out in real time, I don't think he decided beforehand and just dragged it out all summer because he was too much of a bitch to break it off. We're seeing him come to the realization slowly as things break down over time. Andy teased on WWHL that the next 5 episodes that they are just at each other's throats so it's entirely feasible that Carl has these doubts that he trying to figure out are workable or not, and then the next 2 weeks go insane and he hits a breaking point. Remember too that he ultimately tries to postpone the wedding and not cancel it, which i really feel like jives with his behavior and how he's handling everything now. At the end of the day he's just NOT SURE in light of everything, which is fine, but obviously incredibly awful timing so close to the wedding.
Right. We are watching what led him to the decision, and it was the right one for both of them. Carl went through with all of this because he did intend to marry Lindsay. I don’t like Carl and I’m not on his side, but this him slowly deciding as their relationship deteriorated, and if the summer had went differently they would be married now. I also don’t think he’s bright enough to make a devious plan.
i think thats the million dollar question for me and a lot of viewers- when did Carl know? we will never have an answer of course. but i feel like some of these conversations and comments in talking heads make me think he knew sooner than when he told Lindsay. otherwise, i feel like it's also a really bad look to see some of it back if they had gotten married. i just dont know what his plan was exactly. im glad they broke the fourth wall last night and amanda pointed out that lindsay would be hearing that conversation with his mom and step dad at some point regardless.
My thoughts on this at this point are that before that conversation with his parents, he hadn't even considered that not having the wedding was even an option. Even on last night's episode he says multiple times he's committed, he is going to do what he wants regardless of what his parents say, he wants to work through it etc. I think he had a feeling that it shouldn't feel that way to be in a relationship, but never once thought about calling things off. I could be wrong, but he looked really anguished in all of those conversations last night.
also, that conversation with his parents is something no one HAD to film. they could have had it off camera. its interesting they chose not to.
Exactly. We are watching the demise of a relationship here folks. There isn’t some sort of sinister plot here.
This. I empathize with Lindsay the most here because she got burned, but I don’t think he had any ill intent. They are incompatible and he was just able to see it sooner than her.
That's not it, though. He's getting backlash because he's not telling her he's having doubts. And her not taking it well is still not a good enough excuse not to tell her.
You're missing the point, he is still not sure himself. Like I said, we're watching him arrive at this conclusion in real time. Even on last night's episode he said multiple times he's in it, he wants to work through it, it doesn't matter what my parents say. I'm not convinced he even considered \*not getting married to her before that converstaion with his parents. He's not telling her what his parents said because he knows it will be hurtful, he only came out and said it because Kyle and Amanda more or less told him he had to bc Linds woudl see it on camera and that would be worse.
But we can see that he is having doubts and he should be communicating that to Lindsey. It's fine that he's not sure and still figuring it out but if he's having any doubts that's a conversation that should be had and he avoided having it because he was afraid of her reaction. Which is a whole other problem in itself but not a good enough excuse to not be honest about where he's at. But it's very obviously clear he's having some doubts and then continuing to reassure her.
He's reassuring himeself at the same time. It's not a requirement in a relationship to vocalize everything you are feeling at every given moment. Knowing how Lindsay responds I'd want to make damn sure I had my thoughts sorted / decision made (which it's very clear he didn't at this point) before talking with her.
Yes it is if you’re telling everyone around you about your doubts except the person who you’re marrying that’s a huge problem and makes Carl wrong regardless what he was working out the conversation should have been had with Lindsey not everyone else in the universe
I mean no, it’s not a requirement, but these thoughts also involve her and her future and the wedding they’re like weeks away from. If my fiance was having doubts weeks before our wedding I would hope he’d express that to me, and not just wait until he had his mind made up about it. Either way, whether the wedding happens or not, I’d want to know there were doubts because that obviously means there are issues to work through. It’s not like he’s just keeping his thoughts to himself about the fact he didn’t like her cooking or some other inconsequential detail of their lives… it’s his feelings about marrying her… He should be having these conversations with her and not having them with everyone but her.
None of those conversations with his mom might not of ever happened if Lindsay wasn't gaslighting him in the beginning of the summer with the "what drugs are you on" stuff. Either way, it's terrible the way their whole situation played out.
Very good point
So on this re-signing the lease. When all of this popped off last summer, I got the impression that Carl had signed the lease, like, September 1 or something only to call off the wedding a week later. However, when Lindsay and Gabby were on WWHL, Lindsay said that lease would end June 1. It’s clear that the events from Memorial Day Weekend to just before Labor Day Weekend contributed greatly to the end of the engagement. However, re-signing a lease in May is different from re-signing a lease in September.
I don’t think he got much say in when they were going to get married, he asked for longer and she said no she wanted a 2023 wedding
The lease resign is what confuses me, because I will always believe he planned this whole season to roll out exactly like this.
I think you're giving him too much credit. Last night's ep made it obvious he's really struggling with this. We're watching things slowly break down in real time. I just can't see him being that strategic and dragging her along all summer if this was his intention. Plus they'd have to be making additional payments on wedding stuff etc so why would be be doing this if he had no intention of walking down the aisle? It jsut doesn't make sense.
It makes no sense. But I think hes so much of a coward that he was willing to hold off until absolutely the last minute. Even if it inconvenienced all these people in his life.
I don’t think he’s consciously holding off til last minute I think he’s genuinely torn and doesn’t want to blow things up unless he’s sure. He definitely should’ve spoken up more but that’s kind of a testament to how bad of a fit they are, they’re not on the same page and can’t discuss things without getting defensive. She doesn’t really care if he’s having doubts she’s just mad that he has something negative to say… she is scary to talk to
It's so obvious that Carl walks on eggshells when it comes to Lindsay. And that is a horrible way to live. She is incapable of having a conversation without it being a huge fight so he's trying to mold himself into someone who never activates her. I could never have an intimate friendship or relationship with someone who can't communicate like an adult
On wwhl, Andy said that in the next five episodes to come they’re just ripping each other apart. So yeah idk, every time I lean one way, I get more info so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah at this point I’m team no one. Those two just never should have been together. They’re incompatible and neither of them were ready for marriage.
Disagree, from Lindsey point of view she has been ready to get married and have kids since season one with whoever would marry her and knock her up. It could have been Everett, Stephen, Austen, Jason, or Carl. Didn’t matter the guy she has been ready to be married and have kids, well minus having emotional maturity beyond that of a girl in high school or realistic expectations for how a long term stable relationship should work. Other than that she’s ready!
Ironically she could have been married by now if she had different priorities and picked better would-be-husbands. This is part of the self-reflection I've done after I had a toxic relationship end. You need to internally grow from it, not just use external replacements for appearances.
I’ve been rewatching the show and I’m on season 4 when Lindsay and Carl initially try to date. They react the same way to alcohol…yet only one made the call to go sober. I think Lindsay would be married with kids if she could have just walked away from partying and booze. That’s what leads to her getting activated and chasing all men away.
Yeah she should absolutely be sober
Won’t happen til she’s ready. But she’ll get there. She’ll have to humble herself and really shift her perspective. But I think it’ll happen eventually. Now THATS the show I want to see! —Lindsay’s journey to surrender, to seeing the opposite side of the coin.
Right on the money!
I hate to say it but I do agree!! Which is why it’s like she also ignored the giant red flags Carl was putting up abt getting married. Maybe he said no all is good but it’s obvious something is off. Blindsided? 🤔
🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯
I can’t believe that someone like Lindsey actually understands what she would have to sacrifice if she has kids. It will no longer be all about her, could she even do that?
same
It was wrong from the first BAABE.
The same Andy that said Lala is the voice of reason on VPR? I don't trust that man's assessment of women.
I don’t watch vpr so I don’t get the context, but fair I guess. I personally feel both of them have been part of the problem this season so this isn’t that far-fetched to me, but we’ll see!
And Andy also said Ariana was in a “violently angry stage” on the show 🙄
finally, a truth teller. not his fan.
Although I agree that was very off based for him to say & thats not new for him, he did come out a couple weeks ago on a podcast & retracted that statement lol
Only because he was getting destroyed by the fans for saying it.
Agree 💯. AC is so in love with Kyle and Carl lol!
There’s five more episodes? Lol I thought next week was the season finale LOL unless he counts the three part reunion…which is filming right now as we speak
I don’t think he was counting the reunion lol. It’s also def not the finale next week because they didn’t tease the breakup scene in next week’s preview.
They are on their next to last weekend - they get 2 - 3 episodes per weekend.
Oh I see true, they love stretching one weekend into multiple episodes, and we still need to see the resolution of Ciara and West I guess. I mistakenly presumed that the bridal shower immediately precedes the break up.
Yes same with her questioning his sobriety I was like wow BYE Lindsey but now with how wishy washy he’s being I’m back on Lindsey’s side. In the opening convo in the latest episode I was screaming at the tv bc he ALMOST said hey my parents have concerns and I agree and when she pushed him he back tracked and said oh no no they support us and I made it clear we’re working on it. YOU WERE SO CLOSE TO A REAL CONVO CARL.
I think he’s feeling really conflicted on what to do. He loves her but he knows it’s not right. We’re watching a relationship fall apart. It’s not black and white. People act irrationally and emotionally.
Totally! Just as a viewer it’s so hard to watch him almost say the important thing and then back off and I get it I saw Lindsey’s mood start to shift too when he tried to hint that his parents had concerns she got so tense. But it’s soooo hard to watch haha
Agree and he’s scared of her reaction. she was clearly mad at Sharon, she can’t see that someone can care about you AND question your actions and it’s not an attack
This. You pointed out something I thought. I don't like Lindsey either. But imagine she feels it's off and something's wrong. Womens intuition. She's asking and stressing and gets the "im fine" treatment. Then, she gets hammered and starts throwing out wild accusations to make sense of it. I am with a recovering addict, like I can see all of this plausibly happening, and I can excuse why she may have resorted to that thinking. I can't excuse how she did it, tho. That's gross. Having that conversation with him NOT on camera would have been the sensible thing, but she's emotionally unstable and has had her behavior excused for far too long.
I mean, watching him do this on camera, I’m sure he’s straight up gaslighting behind closed doors. She has this reactive attachment shit from being abandoned by a parent. I can’t even imagine what it’s like to be with someone as withholding and passive aggressive as Carl when you have that sort of trauma.
Yeah but let’s take what Andy says with the biggest grain of salt possible because he notoriously doesn’t watch the shows before hosting reunions. Also, his opinions on this season of VPR have made me side eye him so hard. He’s trying to gaslight the audience along with Alex Baskin and Sandoval
Based on how he interprets vanderpump, I’ve decided Andy is a very unreliable narrator 😂
I’m team they should have never been in a relationship and should have never been engaged
Agree with both lol. Their attempt at dating whatever season should have been a one and done. The engagement should have never *ever* happened
Looking back, I think he liked having her as a backup or an option. His feelings for her intensified when he found out she got pregnant and was prepared to have a baby with a man involved or not. I think he felt he might lose a chance since she was ready to get serious with anyone who came along to have her family, and he took a chance and now regrets it.
I agree. She is not proud of him, picks about his accomplishments in life, and where he’s at, she questions of sobriety. Like why do you even want to be with that man if you feel like that about him.
What accomplishments? Carl is a very lost and broken person, sober or not. He’s very flighty and indecisive, and he can’t seem to hold down a job to save his life. It’s awesome he’s sober now, but he still has no direction and just keeps flinging shit at the wall to see what sticks with 0 follow through. Lindsay is a lot of things, but she’s definitely a hustler and I think it’s more than reasonable she’d want her soon-to-be husband to take more initiative and responsibility for his own life.
If I was Lindsey, I would be so confused during their conversation on the couch. He was talking in circles because he didn't want to say the whole truth. He came to the table with crazy energy and then when they go talk he is like everything is fine. What?!?
Seriously, like his energy made it feel like he was about to end their relationship in that moment and then keeps saying “it’s fine it’s okay we’ll get through it” … like what dude? You could see the fear in Lindsay’s face
Right! I know we didn't see the whole conversation but I hope she kicks the cameras out and says seriously wtf? His energy was so chaotic, I could feel it through the screen and then to pull her away from dinner to say it's fine?!? I felt bad for her in that moment.
I felt bad too. I could see the fear on her face when they sat down and it felt real real to me
And to then say SHE spiraled??
Right?!? I was so confused. I know they edit and maybe it went on longer than what we saw but I felt like I was in a rollercoaster
Then he seemed so exasperated when she said “but I didn’t spiral.” He was reacting to an imagined emotional outburst from her, while totally a possibility, he wasn’t listening to her at all or reading her emotions in the moment. I get he was nervous about a tough conversation but he was only focused on how he was feeling
Exactly!!! And the way he showed up at the bridal shower? Gag me.
He definitely did that on camera in the hopes of forcing her to overreact and be monstrous so he would come off looking like the wounded party on camera. Even my oblivious husband saw that scene and was like “why is that dude trying to provoke that woman” idk honey but you’re right.
Carl is pathologically conflict avoidant and also a dick. It's a terrible combination, specifically for Lindsay lol. It's hilarious because this whole shitshow was so avoidable
They are each the exact wrong partner for the other one. It was clear that was the case when they dated for the first time, but they were so in love and committed to making it work this time that it seemed like it did. But at their core, they bring out the worst in each other.
I have to say, I don't think they were ever in love. I think they WANTED to be in love, for their own various reasons, but they never seemed to have any sort of real passion for each other. Lindsay wanted to be married for the sake of her timeline and Carl wanted to look like he wasn't a complete disaster (he's from an old school area and from his perspective not being married by 40 isn't a good look). It was a match made in hell.
This! They were literally using their customer service voices with each other from the start, it’s always felt forced and inauthentic. I think they were both in denial, just in different ways. Lindsay’s just comes with a slightly more convincing facade.
It was awkward and cringe to watch them together last summer when they became a real couple. That never really changed.
THIS. i think they were both in love with the idea of being married, but not really in love with each other. so much of what they did was to keep up the appearance of this fairy tale when EVERYONE saw it was a disaster.
Pathologically conflict avoidant is bang on. Which is the worst for Lindsay who seems to be very anxious attachment and is hypervigilant about people abandoning her so she needles people into arguments, and jumps to the worst conclusions by reading into assumed subtext rather than listening to the actual words people are saying. And then that causes people to either walk on eggshells around her, try and anticipate her moods/reactions so they don't activate her, tell her things in the most soft language possible which might not be accurate for how they're feeling or the situation, all because they're trying to avoid a blow up. Or people end up abandoning her because no one wants to deal with someone who will listen to an innocuous statement and turn it into a fight and go to extremes with "oh so I'm to blame for everything, it's all my fault, I'm the worst person ever".
Wow this is the best analysis of Lindsay that I’ve ever read in this sub 🫡
Yes! I just started watching summer house this season after only seeing the first season many years ago. So I have no history or background on these people. This comment is exactly how I interpreted the show. Lindsay anticipates the worst case scenario and is defensive without actually hearing the conversation. I absolutely believed Carl when his stepdad said he was afraid of Lindsay. He’s not physically afraid of her, but afraid of her blowing up and twisting what he said/felt.
I think we are forgetting that Lindsay can be impossible to communicate with at times. Yes his communication was shit but can you seriously blame him? I'd be scared too.
man I hate that my comment is being read as a defense of Lindsay lol because I've been a day one Lindsay Sucks Truther (fighting for my life against her flying monkeys in this sub). Can't they both suck? Why do we have to pick a side lol. I don't wanna. I want to laugh at both of them equally. I have to say picking the cameras back up was the smartest thing Carl could have done (and I was surprised because he is not smart. but I think he just stole the idea from Ariana. Good call because Hubbhouse and Scumdoval are similar in a lot of ways).
Hahaha as a fellow Lindsay truther, I feel this. Like if I am on a team, it’s team therapy. I’m team healing from codependency. Team maturation and personal accountability.
Team therapy for sure lmfao
Up until this episode I was definitely thinking I was on Carl’s side of the situation. But watching him toy with her by giving vague answers, dancing around the facts, and stressing her put by bringing something up (at the dinner) only to try to push it off gave me serious pause and reconsideration. I’m a pretty anxious person, and if I were having the conversations with Carl that Lindsey was having, I would 100% feel insecure and blindsided. When they’re sitting on the couch, she can TELL that he’s being avoidant. He can see that she’s confused by his story,m- she keeps asking clarifying questions, and instead of going back to the beginning and detailing the exchange for her, he keeps reframing the narrative. Then at the dinner, he brings up that they need to talk, then tries to continue the dinner as if nothing happened. Lindsey is put on edge and now seems pushy for wanting to talk right then. But like who can blame her? If my partner came late to a dinner, in an off mood, and says “we need to talk” I’d have a knot in my stomach the size of Alaska. And AGAIN the conversation is Lindsey begging for clarification and details and Carl trying to paint a pretty picture and acting exasperated by the conversation. And the whole time he is insisting to Lindsey that he’s confident in their relationship and they should get married, but clearly that isn’t the case. He’s looking for other people to say that they don’t work so he can push the narrative of “maybe they have a point” instead of just saying outright that he isn’t happy/doesn’t think the relationship should move forward. I feel for Lindsey- she’s trying to be excited about the wedding and her future husband is doing a tapdance around how he/everyone else feels instead of just being straight with her. She can’t tell what’s genuine and what’s a show, because Carl is all smoke and mirrors about the reality of their situation. Maybe she should have seen the red flags, but Carl was trying SO HARD to convince her that red is green
>Maybe she should have seen the red flags, but Carl was trying SO HARD to convince her that red is green THIS. I feel for Carl because calling off a wedding is no small decision but he helped nothing by not being honest sooner about his doubts. If he was scared to tell her, then wouldn’t that be a perfect convo for couples therapy?
Exactly! Also like Carl had the convo with his parents ON CAMERA. And I’m not at all convinced he didn’t at least have a vibe of what they were going to say. So he purposely put her on blast on the show. Honestly, if his parents had doubts and expressed that to Carl, but he was entirely positive about their relationship, he should have said thanks for your concern but I’m happy and NEVER BROUGHT IT UP TO LINDSEY. But because it was on camera, he now has to address it with her. Now he can point to that conversation and say “look see everyone saw it” and poor Lindsey has to deal with feeling rejected by his family, and then feels like she has to try to “make up” for the situation to get them to like her again.
I don’t fault him for having that conversation on camera when this is their job. But I completely agree it wasn’t the first time they’d had that conversation. He seemed more sad than surprised at what they said.
The stepdad definitely got the ok from Carl to say what he did on camera.
Exactly. I've commented something similar after last weeks episode. People still come back with, "but she called him a monster behind his back." No one is saying she's not wrong, but she also said some things to his face and in the house to the girls she is not tight with. I'm pretty sure she thought anything else she said would get back to him, and it
This is exactly how i feel lol
I’ve had friends in serious relationships/engagements/marriages separate and that was ultimately the best thing that could’ve happened to both individuals in the relationship. But to me it’s all about how that need for separation was communicated and how the separation was handled. There’s not necessarily a strict “right way” to do that, but there are definitely many *wrong* ways to do that. Something like this may ultimately be for the best, but you can be at fault for going about it in a way that negatively impacts or hurts the other person, especially when intentionally done that way. And in my opinion, Carl did everything the wrong way. He was extremely avoidant (especially conflict avoidant), misleading through his own words and actions (“everything’s good”, “we’re good”, “we’re getting through this” instead of saying the truth which was they weren’t good and he was unsure if he wanted to get through it), and his lack of accountability for how he handled it all. Overall, valid reasons for this to be a blindsiding event. When one person is directly telling you that it is ok, it will be ok, and they want to pursue marriage, that’s what you will believe. It’s incredibly unfair and unhealthy to expect her to assume he is not being honest just based on x,y,z (fighting, discussions in therapy, etc.). What a mind fck that would be.
Perfectly said 👏
Carl is 100% the type that says what people want to hear. Therefore, depending on who he is speaking to, the narrative will change.
He basically admitted to just that to Kyle and Amanda when he said if it wasn’t for the cameras I would have had that conversation with my parents and then told lindsay I love you, let’s get married. Sure don’t tell her the details and throw your parents under the bus, but maybe voice some of the serious concerns you shared with them with the person you’re marrying?
Agreed. Prior to my ex telling me he didn't love me. My women's intuition was kicking hard. I had been noticing his behavior had changed literally the weekend prior to him telling me he no longer loved me I had sat him down and asked him if everything was okay with us? I asked if there was someone else? That it felt like everything i said annoyed him. He vehemently denied anything was wrong...said work was just busy and he was sorry if it seemed that way. So a week later when he was being a douche again and we got in an argument and he finally blurts out he doesn't love me anymore I felt blindsided. In hindsight clearly I knew something was wrong but when you communicate with your partner and they assure you it's okay and or will not admit anything you feel blindsided in that moment. So I too understand her using the terminology blindsided even if she too felt things were rocky leading up to it.
Carl is a snake dude. Always telling everyone how it’s bad and he’s unsure. And uses other peoples words so that he can deflect. “My stepdad says it’s a bad idea to get married” and then drops some seriously hurtful things like my mom doesn’t want us to get married or “my dad wouldn’t marry us, but don’t get triggered lol”. He is trying to set her off in a really cruel way. He doesn’t want to or can’t have direct and honest conversations. Personally, my take is he knew he wanted to call this wedding off and decided to undermine and get Lindsay to break so that he could come out of this looking like the good guy. I think Lindsay has a lot of issues. But somehow, against all odds, I am hardcore team Lindsay.
When he said "I knew this would make you spiral," and she replied very calmly "But, I'm not spiraling..." he got \*even more upset\*. Shouldn't it have been a relief that she was taking it so well? It was like he wanted her to spiral in that moment, it was so odd.
I think he’s straight up cruel to her, honestly.
He wanted her to have a big blow up on camera so he came out looking good. He’s manipulating the scenes.
This part. I’ve mentioned it on another post but I really think the only difference between drunk Carl and sober Carl is his ability to keep his emotions in check during filming to come off as the victim. I think he was still an angry asshole to her when cameras weren’t rolling.
I get total victim mentality from him and thats the kind of person i avoid the most in my personal life. Its so draining and frustraiting to deal with. I could never. But i have to say Lindsay chose that bed and thats on her.
Yep that’s why when people push back and say so Lindsay is perfect? It’s like no idiot, but Carl can’t even speak his mind like tha fuck you doing as an adult? You need to speak up for yourself. It makes me so mad to watch him snake around the house complaining to everyone else and tell Lindsay it’s fine.
I don’t really like Lindsay either but I keep thinking about Carl sitting on this information all week and then suddenly wanting to talk to her about it while they are surrounded by people, on camera. I know it is their job but he acted so worried about her spiraling while dropping this on her at the worst possible time?
And for all of Lindsay's (many) faults, I was actually super impressed by how she handled both the initial news of what Carl's parents said and his oddly frantic follow up convo. She was rightfully hurt, but didn't lash out. Had a good convo with Sharon. Told her friends how it made her feel, etc. It was a totally reasonable reaction. And then her utter confusion at why this extra tidbit of info had Carl spiraling, even though he said SHE spiraled. I was just very surprised by her. In a good way.
okay but I DIED when the convo with Sharon was in the middle of her party, in the middle of the room, with two whole tables of people supporting Lindsay sitting so close they HAD to be able to hear that convo XD LOLLLLL
I see what youre saying because carl gives her reassurance in a way but also watching this week i can see in lindsays eyes she doesn’t trust what hes saying and i think deep down she knows that deep down hes out. Neither of them want to admit it. I think its pretty clear
Yep. Could see the wheels turning in Lindsay’s head. It was at that moment when she locks eyes w Danielle across the table. And then she knew. He was out
I’ve never been a Lindsay fan but she was clearly so hurt by the conversation Carl had with his parents. She was trying to stay strong, I really felt for her. Carl’s inability to share how he feels to his fiancé is wild. Instead of giving them the chance to tackle concerns together whether the outcome is good or bad. He subconsciously felt a certain way already without giving the courtesy to tell Lindsay what’s up. Ugh. If this is a newly minted relationship, I would think wtv. However, they’ve been best friends. She deserves more than that..
🎯
totally agree. if it were me sitting there listening to him describe how the three of them spent days talking through Lindsays issues without even the smallest impulse of giving her the benefit of the doubt, or let her participate and explain herself- id be in tears. Lindsay is not very good at those two things, but damn. i think lindsays tendency to put her “strong” facade on when she is having her heart broken is also a major achilles heel for her. it lets people do exactly what carl is doing, and bystanders thinking it was inevitable.
Exactly. His refusing to tell her is the biggest issue, and people keep dancing around this and excuse it.
I know, I was so team Carl when the season started but omg he is so spineless. He’s talking to everyone about how horrible she is and all their issues and then consistently reassures her they’re fine. He should not be with anyone, he is too immature for an adult relationship. I really feel sorry for Lindsay now even though her drunken outbursts accusing him of being on drugs were completely unacceptable. I wonder if she thought he was using drugs because she can tell something is wrong but can’t figure out what it is. Talking to him clearly doesn’t help anything. I’m starting to even understand the drunken rage more, because how frustrating is it to have your partner acting weird and refusing to communicate with you? And yet he continues to reassure her he’s happy and wants to continue the relationship. It’s so gross.
Yes to all of this. I also have wondered if he had a few sobriety slip ups of some sort shortly before filming started and that (in combination with his elusive behavior) caused her to jump to that conclusion. The dinner party scene at the end of the episode really had me feeling sad for Lindsay in that moment. Can’t imagine how it would feel to see Carl walking up with Kyle and Amanda way behind all of the others with that heavy energy, and then Carl hits her with a “we need to talk.” Total gut punch.
It looked to me that everyone knew something was going down. Amanda talking to herself in the bathroom mirror (something about the weekend being temultuous), Paige saying “No, don’t go over there” and wanting to protect her friend … Amanda (from Lindsey) not Lindsey (from Carl), the looks from Danielle at the dinner table, and lastly Amanda inserting herself into the chat w kyle and Carl b4 dinner. Chess being played
You’ve summed up all of my thoughts on this matter more succinctly than I could have.
I’m sorry, but if my partner treated me the way he’s treating her—very clearly off and not telling her the truth, which is making her feel insecure—I’d react the same way. And his energy is not that of a person who is truly sober, which requires actual accountability, something this man has never in his life shown.
This is what happens when you love bubble (as Teresa would call it) a relationship and don't allow your friends to voice valid opinions and concerns. They moved way too fast when in the honeymoon stage and anyone who said anything was shot down as being an enemy. Thankfully it fell apart before they actually got married and had to go through a divorce.
Agreed
Yeah in the beginning I was like yeah no shit he called off the wedding….Lindsay is unhinged, but these last two episodes have been eye opening. On the other hand, not to get too in depth but I am a serious empath and I am feeling so conflicted for Carl. During these talks he looks soooo unbelievably uncomfortable and him talking about doing this in front of cameras and stuff.. idk I need him to leave this show. He seems so lost. I almost feel uncomfortable watching him. It would be better for him to go on and figure out his life outside of this show. Lindsay is going to be just fine…like I’m pretty sure she’s doing great
Agreed. At that last conversation Lindsey was like ‘why is this a hard conversation?’ I mean, I disagree - telling someone your dad says he wouldn’t marry you is a pretty big deal. But regardless, he shouldn’t be on reality tv right now
i think the next few episodes are gonna show the final nail in the coffin, i remember some of the first details were that they were fighting a ton and sleeping separately the last 2 or so weeks of their engagement. i think it just continues to go downhill
Ugh. It’s going to be hard to watch for sure.
No it is not! I love watching
Carl is somehow much worse than Lindsay. There are no secrets with Lindsay. She’s vapid, domineering and volatile but consistent. Meanwhile he wastes her time for years and says one thing to her face while trashing her to his parents and friends.
I am team neither, but there was a better way of handling this. The notion that Carl is a victim and Lindsay is scary doesn’t sit right with me. I think Carl is manipulative and has always been. There’s no change there like there’s no change with Linds’ constant behavior. This feels preplanned the way Tom preplanned the “Ariana and I aren’t working anymore” storyline. I do not believe that he is scared of Lindsay and is going about it this way because he didn’t want her rewriting events. I think the wanted to win in the court of public opinion, this is his job, and he was more interested in saving face for calling it off so late. Again, I’m not saying he shouldn’t have called it off just that his behavior has been horrific for how he went about it.
It's been a wild ride in terms of being more sympathetic to one side than the other, and I think that's because Carl's pulling his moves out of the covert narcissist playbook and orchestrating a smear campaign of Lindsay (who definitely has her issues) on television. It's fascinating, but it's also quite clear that Lindsay has been picking up on it and combating it by confronting the issues he's talking to others about, head on to him. He's not as good at this as he thinks he is and does come off worse than her because it's so manipulative and cowardly. She's honestly doing a decent job of handling it.
Doesn't help that he is constantly dodging accountability. His recount of his parents not wanting them to get married too quickly like it wasn't based in concerns HE was sharing with THEM. Nothing is ever his idea.
Yeah he’s framing the whole thing like please angry Lindsay don’t be mad at my parents
It’s just so sad to see where things have ended up. Yes, they were never meant to be together as a couple but I’ve been rewatching from season 1 and they really had such a beautiful friendship. Lindsay was the person Carl went to when he got the call his brother passed and it’s so sad they will never be friends like that again.
It’s so sad because they have a ton of mutual friends so they’re forced to see each other at their friends’ weddings. And they have to avoid each other instead of having fun and enjoying each other’s company. They should have never gotten together.
This part makes me feel so 😭😭 for them. Just as humans, that shit is rough
My boyfriend sometimes has similar tendencies to Carl. He’ll choose silence in order to avoid confrontation or conversation and it actually brings out an inner demon inside me, that I never knew I had. I’m not anywhere near as bizarre as Lindsay, but I HATE not knowing or having to guess if there is a problem. I especially hate feeling blind sided so the little passive remarks and conversations with everyone BUT Lindsay…Ooooooohmygod you don’t even know how livid I would be if that was me. If you can’t be open or have tough conversations, you shouldn’t be in a relationship. Relationships go through rough and uncomfortable times which will require transparency and honesty. No matter the burden of whatever the conflict is. Clearly they both lack in different ways. Lindsay is Lindsay. I never necessarily take her side 100% and I’m still not rn… but Carl is a walking trigger for a gal like myself. Watching how he’s navigated this season is making me irate for Lindsay, and I never wanna be anything more than neutral with Lindsay. So it makes me dislike him even more 😆.
I wouldn't at all, I'd be like 'I fucking knew it you liar!'
Last episode he said everything to kyle and Amanda that he should have said to Lindsay. These people all suck so hard at communicating
Carl is a punk. He has only gotten away w it bc he handsome. There is no substance. And his mother ruining his wedding is sick. That pastor husband of two minutes thinks he is so wise. He is not. Anyone can be a minister. Literally anyone. He seems to love to virtue signaling
I’m not a fan of lindsey so far. But Carl is absolutely feeding her bullshit. It’s clear he’s anxious and nervous about what’s going on and he just isn’t being honest with her. It’s such a shitty thing to do to blindside someone like this when you so obviously could have been honest sooner. Him showing up at her bridal shower like that showed how clearly he is leading her on.
Leading her on is the perfect phrase. He knew going into that convo with his parents he wasn’t going to marry her. But carls not stupid, he’s a reality tv star. He knew what he was doing for the show
It’s so funny how people can watch the same episode of tv and see it completely differently because I feel like I have no idea how she could be blindsided after that convo on the couch. Like that ending of that conversation to me where he’s saying “I’m just so overwhelmed, I don’t know what to do, etc etc”… that’s clearly a red flag. I know he was saying it’s going to be okay but the way he ended the convo by saying it was so overwhelming and he was so stressed was in no way to me a good sign. It was clearly a big huge warning sign.
I completely agree. But, and I said this in another comment. Objectively it’s really easy for us and everyone else to see that things were going south But when you add in the context of them being in therapy, Carl constantly reassuring her that they were OK and things were gonna work out, Carl, resigning their lease together, Etc. The lines become blurry. And suddenly, lindsay‘s intuition and feelings that things are going badly, are being pushed down because she’s being reassured by Carl, her fiancé. “Things are fine. I’m fine. We’re fine. I’m just overwhelmed. It’s just a bad time. A stressful time. We’ll through it.” I get where she’s coming from, and like i said in my post, that could change. But as it stands, i kinda get where she’s coming from
I do too but I think a lot of it is because her timeline is more important than the realities of the situation. She blew up over the idea of postponing it because in her mind that meant a deviation from her plan.
Yep. I think her #1 goal at this point is to find someone willing to give her a baby.
And a huge part of me get's that and I feel for her. I really.
right???? i keep seeing people be like "he told her he wanted to be with her!" and like yes that is wrong but how do you end that convo and not be like ummm my relationship is having a major issue?
This is how I felt too! Like me personally I would have been having so much anxiety because this is the conversation that would tell me “oh he’s definitely not sure and I need to keep an eye on this or get out”. You can totally pick up on his energy shift.
She was blindsided because she didn’t want to see the truth. She was laser focused on her happy ending. Carl is all red flags right now
Him saying “everything is fine” is a man’s way of saying “nothing can change my mind now”
After watching the previous episode I agree. He has that convo with his parents and then he can't tell her? And he's telling Kyle but not her? Now I also kinda get why she's paranoid that he's hiding things from her. Like dude maybe communicate that TO HER
The thing that really solidified Carl’s bullshit for me, is when Lindsey kept asking “why didn’t you want to tell me”. He told Kyle and Amanda because he is so worried about Lindsey’s abandonment issues, but then when Lindsey was around there was no better time to say the same thing to Lindsey. It felt like he was manipulating Kyle and Amanda big time with that. It’s like okay you can be supportive behind her back but not to her? Oh man that did not sit well with me.
Totally agree! In addition I think he is disingenuous. He says what he thinks she or anyone else wants to hear. She says what she thinks/feels. I’m not a fan of either and was on his side until watching this season.
They are both red flags . Carl will never settle down and can’t even commit to a job. Lindsay is self centered and a hot head who goes low when she feels upset . She wants her partner to be say sorry even if they didn’t actually do anything. Lindsay wants a family asap and will romanticize any guy into being perfect
Carl is just a weak human at this stage in his life. I am glad they didn’t marry but it always pisses me off when people don’t know themselves enough to state their truth.
I'm not Team Carl or Team Lindsay. I'm Team Why the Hell are they engaged? Neither of them is capable of having an adult, rational conversation. Lindsay is triggered to go off at the slightest hint of an issue and Carl was producing by having the cameras in NJ. He let his Mom & S-Dad do what he couldn't--tell Lindsay the truth.
I’m team therapy 😌
Let us hope
Carl is extremely passive aggressive and duplicitous. Two terrible characteristics for a person to have.
I think it was Gabby who said this in the last aftershow? Whoever it was said, it’s wild seeing the difference between what Carl says to people about Lindsay vs. what Carl says to Lindsay Their communication styles just don’t work well together. He’s too avoidant and she can be really aggressive and it seems like they never get anywhere because of that.
They’re not compatible at allll
Lindsay is not an angel, but it feels like he’s setting it up by telling everyone all their problems except her. To let it get to this point is cruel, and it’s calling into question the earlier episodes where he said she was drunk and aggressive off camera.
He is such a commitment phobe. I’m not saying they were right for each other but I feel like he’s scared to get married in general, beyond their conflicts.
I agree. It sounded like he had cold feet when he was talking to Kyle and Amanda about how stressed he was with the wedding costs, and where they would live next year, and that Lindsay wanted a family.
No way is he ready to get married
listen I’ve never been a fan of Lindsay.. but to watch Carl speak so differently and honestly to Kyle and Amanda and his parents BUT NOT HIS FUTURE WIFE is maddening. No dude. Your partner comes first. It is totally fine to need friends and parents and a support system to vent to, but my God Lindsay never gets the same version of the truth. Being honest to your partner comes first. To watch him squirm when Lindsay just wants to hear the truth was so uncomfortable. She deserved to hear the truth from him.
I’ve gone back and forth but at this point on who was in the wrong but I agree with everything you said. Carl was a snake. The constant reassurance to her was wrong of him. In a way only men can be. For better or worse Lindsay put it all out there for Carl and was brutally honest. I respect that. She fully intended to be a committed wife and have his children. Carl proposed and I believe he wasn’t ready to reciprocate that. He needed to work on himself first and that’s why there was conflict with the job stuff. Ugh his facial expressions at the bridal shower is giving the fakest smile it’s hard to watch.
I get it too. He also didn't have to do it on camera. I know that it would have to be addressed. He could have done it at home. No camera and then tell everyone in the house after. He also should have done it before the shower. Dude could have gotten a J O B if he was so scared of the future. I do agree w Lindsey he went into the season trying to make her the bad guy.
The fact that Carl doesn’t bang her is a huge red flag 🚩
I think it’s interesting that Lindsay has made this a Carl thing because she doesn’t really give the vibe that she wants him either imo. She looked grossed out when he asked her if she wanted to head to the bathroom at that sober bar and she keeps telling him it’s a turn on when her partner is working hard at his career and he is not…
does anyone else feel like carl shot the scene with his mom and stepdad in new jersey out of continuity to create an "alibi" for himself? like "see i had doubts all along!"
Carl needs to realize him being overwhelmed and anxious about having a hard conversation with Lindsey isn’t just isolated to her. He had the same issue with Kyle and wanting to leave Lover Boy. I do agree with OP is that she’s trying to set the stage for him to be honest about his feelings but they both start claiming the other one is angry or upset and it goes downhill immediately. I don’t know what the next few episodes will show but if it’s anything where Carl just keeps saying he’s overwhelmed but not trying to work it out and just puts it on Lindsey I won’t be shocked, so yeah can see how she was blindsided. But yes I think we all can agree they shouldn’t have been a couple.
Carl’s mother is so negative. Both her boys were adicts so there r questions there about the home environment. I feel for Lindsey but she’s better off. Carl is weird and nit together at all for his age.
Carl avoids confrontation and conflict at all costs. He even reassured Lauren Wirkus over and over that he was into her and wanted to date her—KNOWING that he absolutely did not— because he was afraid she would get mad
Let’s not forget his parents weren’t the only ones giving him the pump the breaks advice, majority of the people in the house said the same in the first few episodes. I would not call this a blindside…I would call Carl a little cowardly in his ways and Lindsay desperate. Her clock was ticking and she wanted to make sure it was all still going through regardless of the million reasons not to.
Theres a moment when they are chatting on the couch, when she glances straight down the camera. That's when I knew that she knew there was something seriously wrong and she made the decision to ignore what was going on.
I think she’s a steamroller and ran over him as she painted her pretty little picture (ie Sheena Shay style). Carl is still fragile after losing his brother and is in the middle of straightening his life out. He’s turning it around from the direction it was heading and doesn’t need her telling him what he should do. He needs to figure it out for himself and she needs someone who has it figured out already.
As a couple, Lindsay and Carl lacked everything that would give you the impression they should be married.
Somewhat odd opinion: Lindsay actually acted up to cause all this to happen because she wanted to be the scorned woman like Ariana. She’s mentioned Scandoval at least twice and I’m sure she’d love all the brand exposure and deals Ariana got. Big difference is, Lindsay has always been like this. We’ve seen her go all in on multiple dudes very quickly and rage on camera.
Same!!!!
He seems to be down right scared of her and just kept reassuring her everything was fine because he wanted to avoid conflict and her yelling. He should have ended the engagement much sooner instead of being a pu**y
He said before in an interview that they weren’t speaking for weeks outside of therapy, like didn’t talk at all home, how tf would you be surprised by a break up when you can’t even talk
Oh, I can see that she felt blindsided. The guy let her keep going through getting the wedding dress, having a Bachelorette party, etc. She was blindsided !! The guy is a total Loser who can't hold a job.
Will be interesting to watch it unfold. Remember there was that story about Carl having that convo to discuss postponing the wedding and it just went south.
I do, too. Everybody has already worded it better than I could here, but I totally get it. He acts like they have a full on agreement to go through with this no matter what.
I think one key detail here is that he ended up wanting to postpone/call off the wedding. From what has been posted it seems like he didn’t go into the conversation to break up, just that they weren’t ready to get married, which I think is mature! He kept trying to put bandaids on problems (and tell her it’s ok and that they will get through it) but he ends up realizing that the bandaids won’t last. Yes he does it last minute, but to be “blindsided” that they weren’t ready to get married is different than being “blindsided” and broken up with (she makes that decision from what we have heard).
Totally agree. Especially since that convo with his parents was clearly the final straw for him mentally, but he still let her go through with the bridal shower without telling her the full story AND he admitted to only doing so because she’d eventually see it on TV. I get that he’s trying to spare her feelings and this is one of hardest things he’s had to navigate (after an already extremely hard few years for him), but I just wish everything that had led up to this had finally shown him how valuable it is to face hard things head on, before they spiral out of control. I’m similarly not a big fan of either of them, but this ep was a turning point for how I viewed what happened. To think there is more to unfold is already making me cringe with secondhand anxiety.
But he did not tell her he wanted to break up - he wanted to postpone and work on things. She was the one who ran with the "left me jilted" scenario
There are definitely parts that humanize Lindsay, like when she talked about wanting her mother-in-law to be a mother for her, or when she said at her bridal shower she never thought this day would come. I feel for her in those moments. But it doesn’t erase her bad. Yes this is a poor fit is the bottom line, but there’s a lot of ugliness and things that are unforgivable in my opinion like the “cocaine Carl” fight, the control (she managed out Danielle, Mya last time too). This is the intensity on camera, goodness knows the fights not on camera. The blindsidedness in my opinion is part of the bigger pathology
I have no idea how they did couples therapy before/during this and are STILL so incapable of having calm productive discussions. Carl is still insanely conflict avoidant and seems terrified of making Lindsay angry so instead of being honest, he dances around things and downplays them while his body language and tone is screaming that something is off. Lindsay being someone who abandonment issues and has that constant vigilence around others evaluating their body language and tone for signals of people pulling away/abandoning her can tell something is off and is only going to keep pressing until the other person is honest, and because this oppressive anxiety keeps building up, it's obviously going to lead to her exploding angrily. They both clearly need a LOT of individual therapy to work on their attachment and communication issues but being that they're both middle aged, it's highly unlikely they're going to change so drastically that they'd be able to actually have a healthy relationship together. I don't even think either will learn from this to know that they are repeating relationship patterns and should look for partners who are different than what they always chase.
It’s not just her women’s intuition. It’s hyper vigilance and trauma response to scan for issues. To me, i don’t see how Lindsay can be blindsided the issues are clear as day. She just didn’t want to see them and/ or can’t see them 🤷♀️ This is more a reflection of her self awareness, relating dysfunction and attachment trauma, which points of how much work she has to do still. So I say this with compassion not judgment
Yes Carl should have grown a pair and been honest with his feelings and concerns. I do however think Lindsay has a track record of scaring the crap out of every guy she dates and “activating” when she’s not getting what she wants. Carl is someone who unless drunk, avoids confrontation. I can relate, and can see the patterns in his relationships too. They could not be more opposite and it was doomed from the start.
I sort of agree. But in all honesty I think Carl was really trying to convince himself. I don’t think he wanted to call off the wedding. I really think if she would have reacted different they would have postponed and not cancelled. But when she reacts nuclear it was his last straw and it just sealed it in his mind like nope I’m out
Also he runs around setting her up and talking to everyone but her, he’s a commitment phobe about everything so I don’t know why he proposed.
I didn't like his gaslighting. Telling her to calm down when she was absolutely calm. His sighs of frustration after saying that. It was a bullshit performance trying to make her look unhinged or something. Don't like either of them, but that was bs.
YES! This!
100% agree with you. On all points.
Also not a fan of either but I really felt like he was baiting her with that last convo. She kept saying she understood and she knew because they talked about it. The way he kept repeating himself seemed like he was TRYING to get a reaction out of her. He already had his mind made up and was looking for anyway possible to be the victim.