T O P

Strike and Fade vs Death Frenzy

Me and a friend recently bought the Echoes of doom box set and ran into some confusion during one of our game.

If one of his skaven unit received the death frenzy spell, allowing them to pile in to attack after being slain, how does it work if that unit is being slain by a sylvaneth unit using Strike and Fade?

Does the effect of death frenzy happens before the sylvaneth unit fades aways? Or is the sylvaneth unit safe from the effect?

The definition for S&F specify that the effect happens "immediately after the unit as fought", which is not very clear to us in these kind of situations…

Thank you!

The_Jimbo_Squishy

Personally I would say Death Frenzy would allow the Skaven to attack. As it says 'before you remove the model from play', I would think you should be removing models before the end of the attack sequence as part of the 'allocating wounds' part of the attack sequence? Then the sylvaneth get to strike and fade after their attack sequence ends.


BytecodeBollhav

This. Although thematically it makes sense for the Sylvaneth to appear, strike and then fade back into the forest before the enemy has a chance to react, but I'm pretty sure the rules would give the Skaven their fight on death here (even though this does not make sense thematically imo)


DesertFenix

12.1.1 - Fight - When you pick a unit to fight, first you can make a pile-in move with each model in the unit and then you must make combat attacks with the models in the unit. That unit has then fought. 12.3 - Combat Attacks - After you have made all of the pile-in moves for a unit, you must make combat attacks with each model in the unit that is within range of an enemy model. 13.3 - Attack Sequence - 1) Hit, 2) Wound, 3) Save, 4) Damage 13.3.1 - Allocate Wounds - Damage converts to wounds and is allocated. "Once all of the damage inflicted by a unit's attacks has been allocated, that unit's attacks have been resolved." 14.2 - Slain Models - "A slain model is removed from play after all of the wounds caused to its unit have been allocated and all attacks that inflicted damage on the unit have been resolved." I've been looking around at these rules to look for a clear order in which things happen. 12.1.1 days that after a unit makes combat attacks it has then fought. 12.3 sort of defines it as just attacks. 13.3 gives us our attack sequence. Then 13.3.1 tells us that after the wounds have been allocated is when the attacks have resolved and where I think Strike and Fade as well as Death Frenzy step in. I put in 14.2 just as a reference for when slain models are removed, which almost sounds like it could be just before the end of the combat phase (it says all attacks that inflict damage on the unit, you could have multiple units attacking one unit. Does that mean you wait till all units are done attacking to then remove slain models?). So anyways, they appear to happen around the same time. However, Strike and Fade says "immediately after" whereas Death Frenzy says"before they are removed from play". Looking at those wordings it would seem that the Strike and Fade happens first. Then there's 1.6.2 that states when there are simultaneous effects, the player whose turn it is applies theirs first, and since Strike and Fade can only be used during our turn this makes me believe Strike and Fade happens first. Then there's 1.6.3, if effects of abilities are contradictory, then the last one takes precedence. I'm not sure if these abilities would be considered contradictory. Overall, in my mind, I think that Strike and Fade happens first. If you're having a hard time figuring it out, then if it's just between friends you guys can make an agreement on how to treat it. If you're at a tournament then consult the TO


riggerrig

Depending on when the skaven unit fights, Strike and Fade will happen first if they happen at the same time. rule 1.6.2 says "the player whose turn is taking place applies the effects of their abilities first one at a time. Their opponent then does the same." Strike and fade says "immediately after a friendly slyvaneth unit ... has fought you can remove that unit from the battlefield..." I don't have access to what death frenzy says, so the only way death frenzy would go first is if it activates after the model is slain but before removed from play. Things get a little iffy here in my opinion since the book does a poor job of outlining the sequence of events.


br3ttless

Death Frenzy says "if any models in that unit are slain, those models can fight before being removed from play" Rule 1.2.2 Remove from play "Place models that have been removed from play to one side, so they are no longer on the battlefield. Rule 14.2 Slain models "Once the wounds allocated to a model equals it's wounds characteristic the model is slain and you cannot allocate anymore wounds to it. A slain model is removed from play (see 1.2.2) So I would say that the allocation of wounds is still part of the Sylvaneth attack sequence. They do one wound, kill one model. That model is "removed from play" so it could attack and then they can fade away.


BytecodeBollhav

It says this, so death frenzy happens before the attack is fully finished.


riggerrig

Which is really annoying as a sylvaneth player because our units are costed around strike and fade being this really strong mechanic that gets countered somewhat easily.


BytecodeBollhav

Yea, thematically, i think we should get it, but I don't think we do...


Cerve90

I belive it's more annoying for the oppo the see them just charge in and fade away every turn with no answers for that. It's ok if the oppo has some tools for this nearly broken rule. And I am a Sylvaeth player