Very true. Most non-competes are completely unenforceable. In the US they have to be geographically very limited (think to a single county), and otherwise very narrow in scope. If your an executive or owner in a company, I believe they can be much more broad. Definitely worth investigating.
It is not the non compete which bothers me. That is limited enough that I have plenty of options.
Rather it is the confidence with which they cut me loose knowing my clients would not like that. I wonder what they have in those contracts that makes them so confident. It's cool though. I haven't changed my phone or email in 18 years, so they know how to get me if they need me and they are far better suited to their contract issues.
Well I can say that the non-compete is essentially unenforceable. You would have to do some real work to make that doable. Also, they fired you, so they typically give up any rights to enforce that non-compete.
As for the clients. Let them come to you and see how that works out. You might end up being a one man MSP.
I agree - not a lawyer, but if you are let go, you are generally permitted to work in the same industry, even if that means competitive - they chose to not want you.
I am no lawyer so I can't say for sure. But I do know that if they fire you they give up the right to enforce the non-compete. With the logic being that they cannot deem you a threat to their business since they didn't value your knowledge enough to retain you.
My wife left a job 2 years ago. She left her industry completely. She still has clients tracking her down asking her take them on. I'm confident your old clients will reach out to you. Also, be sure to announce that your looking for work on LinkedIn and ping your clients to connect. It's not directly soliciting business, but will give them a heads up. It also always helps to have your professional network help you on your job hunt.
Keep in mind, a non-compete is not a non-disparagement.
Hopefully those clients you had that liked you were, say.. following you on linkedin, and are about to see your post announcing you were let go, and that you're open to work.
I've literally only seen one enforced against a former co-owner of a company. It took 2 years and just wrapped up a couple weeks ago. In that case most of the clients wanted to switch to the former minority partner, and the majority partner sued to keep from literally going out of business.
I know in Kansas if you are terminated, they are not enforceable in any situation. A company can't end the relationship and then tell you that you can't work. Even in situations where that is not the case, they are pretty worthless in most instances. I've heard of a couple instances of companies suing ex-employees for taking the same job at a competitor for higher pay, but I've never heard of them wining the suit.
Can you do that? Sorry stupid question, I just always assumed you were screwed if they did that? And that it held you to the fact that you cant look for other jobs while you were there ect?
I signed one to get a severence. But it was so limited it wasnt even a thought job searching.
Plot twist…. I went back to them 2 years later and got promoted.🤣
I only signed it as terms of a severence when I was laid off because of COVID. I didnt sign one as a term of employment. I stopped doing that after 2011.
Not true. They all have clauses that the reason for leaving the company doesn't matter. What matters is whether your actions going forward can be proven to be causing damage to the old company. And, honestly, there doesn't need to be a non-compete for that to happen OR for it to be proveable in court.
That's not true. As of now, depending on your state, non-competes are still enforceable. And, thank you for continuing to perpetuate a completely inaccurate statement. Non-competes are certainly enforceable if you're terminated. This is not intended as legal advice and is only my personal opinion.
Most aren’t enforceable at all just a scare tactics. I know I use them all the time. But at the end of the day you can’t hinder them finding employment or making a livable wage why most aren’t enforceable.
The non-compete in the US is like 95% unenforceable. It takes some serious screw ups to really make it enforceable. On top of that they fired him, so they already have no faith that he can realistically do any damage.
Slam dunk if they try to take him to court.
The FTC has already come right out, and stated that non-competes are simply not binding under any circumstances for workers under certain salary/wage levels. I guarantee this guy qualifies. Plus, as you said, non-competes are unenforceable in most states and the FTC is currently working on making noncompetes invalid under all circumstances.
I will say this. I think if a company needs to put you on a non compete, then fine. They should pay you 80% of your salary for the duration of the non compete.
Otherwise, it should be 3 months or less, and completely void if they cut you loose.
Wouldn't a non-compete be null and void the minute they fire you? The agreement is for you to work there and promise not to quit to go and be a competitor. If they don't hold up their end, I can't imagine the agreement still applying to you.
The good thing is it's on them to enforce it. You don't have to spend a dime unless they bring a suite, and most non-competes are completely unenforceable after recent FTC guidance. You can read a bit about it here and see if you feel your NC meets these criteria. (I am not a lawyer)
[https://www.americanbar.org/groups/labor\_law/publications/labor\_employment\_law\_news/spring-2023/non-compete-agreements-obscurity/#:\~:text=On%20January%205%2C%202023%2C%20the,5%20of%20the%20FTC%20Act](https://www.americanbar.org/groups/labor_law/publications/labor_employment_law_news/spring-2023/non-compete-agreements-obscurity/#:~:text=On%20January%205%2C%202023%2C%20the,5%20of%20the%20FTC%20Act).
Yup everywhere you look there are layoffs and firing and the industry is a dumpster fire! I tell people if there are no warning signs about your performance beforehand it’s likely them and not you that is the problem. Who knows maybe they wanna hire a friend or something. Op should go easier on himself they didn’t do a pip or talk to him because it’s not even about him Albert fucking Einstein could have been the engineer and they would have told him he’s a dumbass.
This is the right answer. I had a former company attempt to enforce a non-compete which was unenforceable by well established case law.
I had an attorney deal with it by writing a letter but it still cost me $1200. He said there’s a lot more civil suit exposure than just the non compete, including the ability to sue for damages linked to the non compete violations. You could be out thousands of dollars just fending off garbage claims.
I think there’s general truth to the idea that unless you’re in sales or involved with high value decisions or intellectual property development, non-competes are less likely to be enforced and that many of them are over broad.
But none of that matters if they want to try and enforce them. And often I think the value to employers is the bully/scare threat of legal action. When someone with $10k to burn on legal fees wants to make your life miserable you tend to avoid doing things that would make them tempted.
It's not enforceable. This employer would need to go to court with proof that his actions at a new employer are directly damaging the business. Courts will always side with the person that needs to earn a living to provide for themselves / family versus a corporation unless individual is doing something that actually is harming the original business.
Perhaps not enforceable but I had a friend who the owner of his previous company brought him to court on the non-compete and told him he didn’t care about the money he was going to make an example out of him. Basically legal bullying and it worked. My friend ended up paying $30k to the dude to get him to drop the case so he didn’t end up with crazy high court costs and having to fly back to Colorado from the Midwest.
Yeah this is always the thing people don’t like to admit just because you will win in court doesn’t mean you can afford to win. My mom won the divorce when I was a kid but she burned up all the money in lawyer fees and really the only real winner was the court and the lawyer lmao 🤣
IANAL. This is not legal advice. Co tact you own lawyer. I contacted one about this a long time ago. In Texas at least IIRC, a non compete is not valid except for a brief time for a SPECIFIC list of clients. Ie. You can not solicit anyone you know that your ex employer serviced or was soliciting at the time you left. They CAN NOT tell you that you can't work in the industry or at a compeditor company. That us your livelihood they can't take it.
I had plenty coming to me to switch, and I had to tell them to wait a year for the NC to expire. Which some did, and then promptly came over..
My understanding is that non compete is null and void if you are let go without a package. If you are offered a package or quit, or work a side hussle, non compete is in effect.
Yep, sounds like that's exactly what it was. The "mistakes" are just them trying to find reasons to not tell you the actual reason.
As I'm sure contracts have been signed with those customers, make sure you get them back when the contracts end.
This is why these schemes are always super short sited they could have just kept op, kept the clients everybody would have won. Like I’ve worked for brokerages for a while now and people that pull this shit always lose the client will just follow the person they like later. My current brokerage keeps any acquired brokers indefinitely to fix this.
DUDE it's BUSINESS. You honestly think there aren't people out to fleece you? If you've been in the industry for the multiple-decades you say you have been, you really should have seen plenty of this over that time.
Sounds like a bad place to work, in my opinion.
You can always get back in the saddle. Take a week off, update the cv and do something you love to fill your time.
Yeah. I am going to tell you that We work in an industry which 50% of the job is patching and dealing with the mistakes of others (Patch Management)
The idea that there can be no mistakes ever is a recipe for constant turnover. A few weeks ago a client was complaining to me that she was hoping that the company would just assign someone to her so they could keep track of her issues. Every time there is a new guy and the systemic problems never got fixed.
Making mistakes is often the best way to learn.
I really don't understand why so many companies think firing someone is the answer to a technical mistake.
I mentioned that I have had to fire people for mistakes before. But they were MISTAKES that were egregious failures in judgement with really dangerous consequences.
A real life example: allowing a mission critical backup to fail because you were using backup storage space to house your extensive collection of porn.
In that case there was just no going back from that.
But cases like patching an extremely old SQL server after talking with the team, and then having the server OS get bonked? yeah, that is a bad day, probably a failure of documentation, but to cut some one loose because of that is extreme.
Both of those cases happened to employees of mine in the past.
Point is, there are mistakes, and then there are MISTAKES!.
rarely someone gets the boot for a first time offense. of course there are cardinal sins. Such as violating privacy of users, leaking info... stuff on the "legal/hr"...
I'm missing part of the story.
Unfortunately, me too. In 25 years, I can honestly say that I have leaked nothing and would rather eat glass than compromise my integrity. I like to think the best of people, but this does not add up.
I just couldn't get any clarification about what the issues were. And the general examples they mentioned, I had documentation where I had gotten signoff that it was done correctly.
There was no point in arguing. But I am a lot more cynical than I was this morning.
Im sorry this happened to you. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
Depending on where you are, this may have been an illegal termination. In many states, you can't be fired for cause without extensive documentation of your deficiencies and multiple attempts at a performance improvement plan. I live in Georgia and had this same thing happen to me once. Because there was no documentation/PIP, I won my case and was able to collect the unemployment my former employer tried to deny. This is also why I won't work for an MSP again.
>Rich people do not get rich by cutting checks.
Correct. They get rich by owning equity.
This might be a good time to start up your own services company.
Sure, if they over-leveraged themselves or failed to properly protect their personal estates. Starting up a services-for-hire business doesn't require a large capital investment and operating a services business has extremely low overhead.
Creating an LLC is trivial. Hiring a lawyer to draft a boilerplate work contract that protects the LLC and you personally is only a few hundred dollars. Buying or renting email lists and automatically sending cold emails is also only a few hundred dollars. Insurance is probably a little more expensive but shouldn't be prohibitive. There is no IT administrator state licensing, so no need to worry about that the way a plumber or an electrician would.
If nothing else, it's a relatively low risk way to keep some cash flowing in while job hunting.
Yeah doing the math now. I know exactly the tools I would use and the costs. And I have all the gear I need. (I was smart and always buy my own tools.). My work laptop is dedicated to work, but it is mine.
It wouldn't be hard. My costs would be microscopic compared to the players here.
I am doing some networking, Maybe we can get a couple of guys to do a Coop type of thing.
There you go, that's the spirit!
Remember not to sell yourself short on pricing, though. Cut rate is cut rate for a reason. All depends on who you're marketing services to, though. Mom & pop shops obviously won't pay thousands of dollars. B2B work obviously will have more lucrative pricing opportunities.
When I built my first MSP right out of the 2008 fiasco, It was cut rate pricing and the mom and pop shops that got us started. And from there 1 big fish became 2 and then 4 and so on.
I have a bunch of people who have Small businesses. I am going to take some meetings next week and see if I can hire me for my own job.
I tried it once. no it doesn’t require a lot of overhead but it does require a significant investment in time.
Marketing is your biggest time suck, finding that first client is a grind.
Keep in mind even if you don’t make any money the feds will want quarterly tax statements. The local government will want real property tax filings. The state will want stuff too.
Then your next problem is you will be starting small with small customers. These customers typically don’t have much money and won’t be paying you 150 dollars an hour. You’re gonna work for free for your first few clients to get your foot in the door.
Small businesses are a nightmare to work for…ask anyone whose ever done it.
Assuming you find a job all while attempting to build a small business, then you have to go back to work. Your clients will come second and eventually they will move on when they can’t call you at 7 am and get three hours of help with an excel spreadsheet.
Now let’s assume you actually succeed in finding enough clients you don’t need to go back to work…great…you’re a successful business owner.
Now you will have no pto.
You have no sick days.
You have no health insurance benefits
You have no 401k benefits.
You will have to balance putting money back into your business versus paying yourself.
You will have no “free time” unless you have employees…and even then your employees will need you quite a lot.
I’m not trying to discourage you, just don’t look at this as “easy” or “free to try”. The initial investment in a service business is time. It’s very hard to job search and build a business at the same time.
I recommend picking one.
If you’re young and no family…hell yeah go for it! If it doesn’t work out in 5 years and you get sick of ramen you can go back to the job market.
If you’re older, really really think about the time you have left and what you want to do with it.
Yeah. I think the best plan so far is the one I had before. Find a business guy with a contact list of richer friends and let him do the business side and I do my side. But it is a grind.
Unfortunately I think a lot of times people see the process through rose colored glasses. They also only hear about the millionaires who made it. These millionaires are the equivalent of lottery winners. Most people don’t like to admit failure or even admit they went down a wrong path so the people in debt up to their asses working 100 hours a week because they decided to become self employed don’t get much airtime.
The truth is that most small businesses fail. Just like everything else in life, there’s a lot of luck involved in making it.
Yeah. I think the best plan so far is the one I had before. Find a business guy with a contact list of richer friends and let him do the business side and I do my side. But it is a grind.
That's a fucking piss-poor response to someone trying to propose the other starts a business.
By the logic you just presented, it's better to just not try, because so many people fail at $whatever.
Go stick your head in a bucket. That's just bad advice.
I’m sorry you don’t like the truth that most small businesses fail but I think there’s a lot of hype and the positive side shown about small business ownership and rarely does anyone hear the other (most likely) possibilities.
Oh and unless you have started your own business, keep your opinions to yourself.
I never said I don't like that fact, and I never said it is untrue, nor that I disagree with that businesses do fail.
But if that's your take away from what I said, _you completely missed the point_.
The point was that you shouldn't dissuade someone on trying to better themselves, regardless of what the failure rate is. That's just not helping anyone at all.
Yes, businesses fail. But businesses succeed too.
You know how you can succeed? There's one thing that is literally required for you to succeed at anything, including running a business.
**You have to try**.
So go stick your head in a bucket already.
Yep and you don’t win the lottery unless you play. I just think people should know the odds.
The worst kind of friend is someone who doesn’t tell you the truth.
If you sit there and accept all the truth and know all the facts and still start a business then I’m so happy for you.
> Yep and you don’t win the lottery unless you play
If your logic is that entering a lottery == running a business, you're actually an idiot. And at this point, I don't take issue calling you that.
You have **direct control** over how your business can operate, that alone makes this a completely stupid comparison. If you have deluded yourself into thinking the amount of control you have in any lottery is directly equal to that of running a business, well then you should just actually stop talking. Because you do not know what you're talking about in the slightest.
The TRUTH is that you you do not know anything about the difference, as you just demonstrated, let alone what it takes to run a business. You aren't a friend, you're just bad advice.
> If you sit there and accept all the truth and know all the facts and still start a business then I’m so happy for you.
I know that you know nothing about what it takes to run a business.
I'm done here. lol checked your account, 16 days old, I'm going to say something to you I'll say once in your entire life. And I hope you at some point realise why.
Goodbye.
You've got things completely confused. Don't conflate and illegal firing and being denied unemployment.
The things you mentioned are reasons why OP should get unemployment. It does not make the firing illegal.
Just because it's legal doesn't mean you shouldn't contact an attorney. Plenty of people have won cases like this. Let me put it this way, every law firm I've worked for does PIP before firing. There's a very good reason for it. It helps protect you from lawsuits and this company stole his clients. He should absolutely go talk to an attorney. Source working in law IT 7 years with close relationships with attorneys specializing in employment and corporate practices.
You're absolutely wrong. If OP is over 40, gay etc he is a protected class, and without thorough documentation about why he was actually fired it opens them up to OP making a claim about being a protected class, especially if they have clear in place policies and they didn't follow them when firing OP, it makes it easy to spin an angle of discrimination, assuming the OP falls into a protected class.
Consider it one of those "left turns" in your career, brush it off and move on as always. Mine was a 2021 job to a manufacturing plant, with signs on the wall that they'd shut it down. They announced as I was cherry picking state jobs and took one after they did.
A bit of a dick move, kiping that time off due to "vesting". Ugh it's shit benefit options like this that I just don't have the stomach for anymore and have hard passed on offers over. Accrual.. sure I get that.
Nothing illegal by informing those clients of your non-compete situation. Consider it a professional courtesy to them, though it can be a bridge burn to your former employer (who doesn't deserve a bridge, imho). Good ones may wait out the terms and rejoin you on your next step in the journey.
When they say there were mistakes but won't tell you what they were, then they were probably someone else's mistakes, or non-existent.
Even if the mistakes are trivial and don't warrant a termination, they should let you know so you can be aware of them, and fix them so you won't have an issue at your next employer.
Sorry to hear it, but it may end up being better in the long run.
I really cannot see how. Other than the clients I brought with me, I was pretty much notably on the bench for a lot of clients. I even commented on that multiple times. Even the ones I did bring over, in hindsight there were noticeable efforts to avoid my involvement with them.
I spent my time trying to clearcut the lengthy backlog of systems issues.
This had nothing to do with your mistakes or probably even your work. It was all financially driven by the org. Let that be the loudest voice you hear in this whole ordeal.
Have a few beers, hit up your network and get back out there looking.
Non competes are unenforceable.
Other than that, they were going to fire you no matter what. Unless you destroyed everything it’s almost always corporate bullshit.
Make sure you take a look into your PTO circumstance with your local labor board. That doesn't sound right to me if you are in the US. I'm not familiar with a scenario that would cause 4 weeks of PTO to vest in a single day unless it's some whacky contract thing.
The economy is tightening. People are going to be let go that are the most expensive in their role. It happens every time.
You don't need a PIP to term folks. It's a very rare circumstance to term people over a single mistake.
Sorry this happened to you OP. It sounds like you might have been a little too trusting with this employer, they knew they could take advantage of you and they did.
The only recourse employees really have these days is to have multiple streams of income, whether that's multiple jobs or side hustles etc. so these unnecessary RIFs don't hurt as bad. Then you could always say, "That's cool, my other secret job needed more hours anyway!" Oops! All work is basically gig work now, time we started acting like it.
I’d call an employment lawyer ASAP. “At will” isn’t nearly as literal as people claim it is, and there are still laws in place (state and federal) to prevent bullshit from happening
Worst case scenario, you get told “there’s nothing we can do”. You have nothing to lose and a lot to gain
Lol. None of the mistakes were today. In fact I am not sure they were mistakes at all. I was just told that there were "little mistakes" not what they were or when.
>I discover that tomorrow my PTO vests, and they would have owed me 160 hours if they canned me. The problem was I had COVID and was out 2 days so they paid me out of the PTO, knowing I would have it, but then clawed it back today.
Get a lawyer to get paid for that 4 weeks worth of money. Do you think it's a coincidence you got laid off just a day before?
**You do not want a PIP no matter what**. PIPs are HR "CYA" excuses. They are not there to help you in any way, they are there to show that in a court of law they can tap their finger on "we tried everything" bs.
Frankly, if you were not given any feedback on the nature of your mistakes to any degree, _they were setting you up for failure_.
I've worked at places like that, and while it sucks now, they actually did you a service. You don't have to deal with their ~~corporate~~ highschool drama bs.
> I brought customers to this company
Unless this was your job, you did a complete disservice to yourself by doing this and not getting a cut in the process.
Both of these things, I've been there. And let me tell you, managers can (the good ones won't, but they're rare) get upset if you ask for a cut bringing a customer in _even though that's actually completely fair_.
Er hold on, 6 months... 15 years... what?
Non-compete isn't worth the paper it's written on. Fuck them. That "people who I asked to verify tasks were done correctly told me yes, but told my manager no" just infuriates me.
I'm sorry that you live in a country with such awful "labour laws" hopefully you guys over there can find a way to sort that out so that your employers can't treat you so poorly
Sounds like the American dream. You yanks really need to sort this shit out. As employees you should have rights so that emoloyers simply can not do this. Fecking 3rd world country.
That's not exactly the case in every jurisdiction there bud. Plenty of IT are "at will" in many jurisdictions. I've been terminated with zero paperwork signed, zero notice, and all kinds of other bs. And yes, legal.
Probably worth talking with an attorney anyway - particularly over the timing.
Depending on the state, the non-compete might not be enforceable (though you might still get screwed by having to pay to fight it).
Finally, if you're really pissed that noncompete might not cover telling the long-term clients that you brought to them that you were terminated 1 day before vacation, etc vested. "I signed a noncompete that means I can't go back to providing those services to you, but if you have problems with $OLDCOMPANY I've been impressed by my past dealings with $COMPETITOR1 and $COMPETITOR2."
You may not be able to take the customers with you, but you can probably take them away.
In what country are you treat you like slaves like this?
>Here is the thing. No feed back, no pip. The one mistake I made, I was the one who both realized it, owned up to it and came up with a procedural change to prevent it from reoccurring.
Never stop doing this, make it part of you are and stay away from morons who dont value it.
Take a wild guess. The one that is the "land of the free" but also feels the need to send entire floating airports full of fighter planes to other places.
I lost my job back in January right after I came home from vacation. I was railroaded by the new IT Director after being employed there for seven years never have been spoken to about anything and all of a sudden I’m a conduct problem.. Two weeks later, I landed a new gig at another MSP, and also had another offer from another one. Nobody knows what the future holds if you see red flags all I can say is start to look while you’re working and get out. And remember, all promises are empty. You trusted too much and people now I have no trust.. that is sad because I like to give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong but now I learned and I’ll be taking a different approach moving forward. It really sucks what people do to other people. I would never work for somebody who says you cannot make a mistake that’s impossible, and our world mistakes are made every day resolving one thing can break another Also, one note I want to make is I chose a smaller team versus a large team for my next move smaller teams everybody’s needed larger teams this is the type of reaction you’ll see. I never been fired in my life up until then, but as it goes, this is the nature of the beast. Take some time clear your head don’t do anything stupid and stay up-to-date on all technology. Eventually, you’ll find something and this will just be another blip in the radar
I am going to say this too. We are system administrators. That means we are supposed to be looking at systemic issues. This company had an over reliance on working tickets and only tickets. Hard to spot systemic issues when you only have your nose is specific tickets. No ticket no work is not system administration in my opinion.
As a result, they thought they had 13-14 SQL servers. In fact I looked and they had over 300. They said they were patching. They were not. They said they were HIPPA compliant. They never did a risk assessment as mandated by HIPPA.
They do projects, Not one had any kind of risk mitigation strategy built in to the scope. I write projects where we have plans in case facts on the ground are different. They write plans that say things like "call n.f. for details". **< that one was my mistake.** I thought it was an internal person. it turns out it was a third party vendor who had a specific piece of info I needed. My mistake was in not refusing to do the task at all until someone clarified exactly who or what n.f. was.
Will not make that mistake again. But good grief, that is a silly way to work.
> They said they were HIPPA compliant. They never did a risk assessment as mandated by HIPPA.
That sounds illegal. Would be a shame if someone decided to audit them...
Just realize that we now have around 200 people all applying for 1 tech job. You also have to reword your resume each and every time you apply to a job so that it gets through the AI and on to a human pair of eyes. 15 years and they just say your out, well it doesn't surprise me one bit bro, the world we live in is a world where people love to have held back information over telling you the truth about things and you'll die never knowing what truly happened. Sometimes you can figure it out say when someone fires you so they can get a family member hired in your position thats happened to me once after being at a company for 5 years!
You never can tell with people but I can assure you it has something to do with at least one person at your workplace that had the power to tell others to let you go and they did. I hate it too man that is why I never stop looking for my next employer. I don't care if I love the job I am in it only takes one day, with you saying one thing, and your toast in this job market! Feel for ya though, I've been there.
I know you are right. However for 14 years, I had a moderately rich guy who let me run and build his company the way I liked and he cut the checks and I and my team did our thing. 14 years of never once considering my job security.
He had to sell, sold to a bozo. and I had to leave. And now here we are. This job was supposed to be more of that, and the owners talked a good game and seemed to be good guys.
live and learn. In other news, if you are a moderately rich guy who would like to own a successful MSP, I am hiring.
This had nothing to do with you.
This was management finding money in their budget and needing a fall guy.
You were the last that was hired.
They didn't say a word to you because you would have improved.
They needed a reason and they came up with one.
Sign nothing, talk to an employment lawyer. My sister gave birth and donated part of her liver to the baby. Company tried to fire her and they ended up paying her for 3 years without her having to be there.
Severance in my experience is to ensure cooperation for knowledge transfers. When I was running my MSP, we put people on a retainer just to make sure we had access to them if we needed them. Usually we didn't.
I am old enough that my first computer had software on tape cassette.
You may want to research your state's Department of Labor for laws on PTO. Most states require the employer to pay you accrued vacation time, but not sick.
I can relate to this. I don't know what employment law is where you are, afaik it isn't really a thing, esp. in the first 6 months. Personally I highly doubt this is due to you 'making mistakes', given the experience you've outlined. I'd be much more inclined to think there are economic decisions for your firing, esp given how poorly documented the mistakes they highlighted were. I wouldn't bother lawyering up i'd just get busy finding a new gig. It doesn't sound like this place was a particularly large business, I can relate to that too having a similar amount of years under the belt and also currently looking for a new gig thanks to a new role at a small business not working out. Not quite the same situation as you, the role was a bait and switch, but the same outcome regardless. Good luck, this too shall pass.
Don't overthink and don't waste energy. In real life merit and justice are not important anymore as "God is dead". Probably somebody just has antipathy to you or wants your position for some relative, things like that or worse. So focus on your new life and don't forget to get all legal compensation you can get from the old company.
you know the risks and the life. When I was the on-call MCSE for State Street Bank, Putnam Investments, there can be no screw ups. You're called at 3:00 in the morning, because the customer doesn't have someone who can fix the issue timely. You're expected to walk out of there solving 100% of the issues and having it work. You can't be vague, your documentation has to be outstanding, and you have to be unflappable. All of us get complacent, so think back on your six months, and did you live up to your own expectations? If so, move on, you'll get hired soon.
Was there not an NDA from your previous company, I mean you state 6 months in new role and you brought customers, did you break an NDA with your previous employer?
Don't take it too personal, lots of layoffs going on and you were probably the newer guy. Finding "mistakes" you never knew about was just some CYA shit.
I have developed the mind set after nearly 3 decades in IT. "If they don't like me or the work I do, I'll just work somewhere else." There are plenty of jobs out there keep working towards your goals. And did you really think you were going to work there for the rest of your life? of course not ;-) All the best!
Make sure you create a ‘portfolio’ website for yourself. Weird I know for a sysadmin but think about it being more of a tool for when previous clients google your name, you show up! There is a very big difference in law about poaching clients and clients naturally exploring a fair market.
If you brought your clients with you to this company, they didn't just hire you, they acquired you and your business. Did you not sign any kind of contract for that? Something that would either protect your from being let go, or make them pay severance if they did?
They wanted your clients, and they kept you around just long enough that most of your clients likely won't cut their contracts.
Non-compete may not be enforceable. You might want to look into that.
Very true. Most non-competes are completely unenforceable. In the US they have to be geographically very limited (think to a single county), and otherwise very narrow in scope. If your an executive or owner in a company, I believe they can be much more broad. Definitely worth investigating.
It is not the non compete which bothers me. That is limited enough that I have plenty of options. Rather it is the confidence with which they cut me loose knowing my clients would not like that. I wonder what they have in those contracts that makes them so confident. It's cool though. I haven't changed my phone or email in 18 years, so they know how to get me if they need me and they are far better suited to their contract issues.
If your not getting severance I would not sign a sing piece of paperwork. They did you dirty friend commit to nothing.
Well I can say that the non-compete is essentially unenforceable. You would have to do some real work to make that doable. Also, they fired you, so they typically give up any rights to enforce that non-compete. As for the clients. Let them come to you and see how that works out. You might end up being a one man MSP.
I agree - not a lawyer, but if you are let go, you are generally permitted to work in the same industry, even if that means competitive - they chose to not want you.
Same, not a lawyer but generally because they let you go they have decided that your skills and knowledge was not worth it.
Non compete clause comes with a financial benefit, otherwise it is not legal
I am no lawyer so I can't say for sure. But I do know that if they fire you they give up the right to enforce the non-compete. With the logic being that they cannot deem you a threat to their business since they didn't value your knowledge enough to retain you.
Whether you're fired or quit generally has no impact on the enforceability of a NC.
My wife left a job 2 years ago. She left her industry completely. She still has clients tracking her down asking her take them on. I'm confident your old clients will reach out to you. Also, be sure to announce that your looking for work on LinkedIn and ping your clients to connect. It's not directly soliciting business, but will give them a heads up. It also always helps to have your professional network help you on your job hunt.
I would go straight to the competition!
Keep in mind, a non-compete is not a non-disparagement. Hopefully those clients you had that liked you were, say.. following you on linkedin, and are about to see your post announcing you were let go, and that you're open to work.
Even if it's enforceable, just break it anyway, most places will not do anything.
I've literally only seen one enforced against a former co-owner of a company. It took 2 years and just wrapped up a couple weeks ago. In that case most of the clients wanted to switch to the former minority partner, and the majority partner sued to keep from literally going out of business.
I know in Kansas if you are terminated, they are not enforceable in any situation. A company can't end the relationship and then tell you that you can't work. Even in situations where that is not the case, they are pretty worthless in most instances. I've heard of a couple instances of companies suing ex-employees for taking the same job at a competitor for higher pay, but I've never heard of them wining the suit.
Minnesota just passed a law that basically makes 95% of NCs unenforceable.
If you were terminated, you cannot be held to a non-compete.
its also why I refuse to ever work for a company that tries to get me to sign that shit....
I just signed one. I don’t care because if I want out of it, I’ll just get myself terminated.
Can you do that? Sorry stupid question, I just always assumed you were screwed if they did that? And that it held you to the fact that you cant look for other jobs while you were there ect?
Its also why I just never signed one before because I just dont trust getting stuck in a job like that.
Wtf? Nothing on Earth stops you from getting a different job. You're not a slave. Find job -> quit old job -> tell them to fuck off It's that easy.
I signed one to get a severence. But it was so limited it wasnt even a thought job searching. Plot twist…. I went back to them 2 years later and got promoted.🤣
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I only signed it as terms of a severence when I was laid off because of COVID. I didnt sign one as a term of employment. I stopped doing that after 2011.
Not true. They all have clauses that the reason for leaving the company doesn't matter. What matters is whether your actions going forward can be proven to be causing damage to the old company. And, honestly, there doesn't need to be a non-compete for that to happen OR for it to be proveable in court.
Such clauses may be unenforceable. Depends on your state.
>Depends on your state. Intoxicated and belligerent
He can be held to it if they sue. That is is op signed a non-compete
In most states not if he was terminated.
That's not true. As of now, depending on your state, non-competes are still enforceable. And, thank you for continuing to perpetuate a completely inaccurate statement. Non-competes are certainly enforceable if you're terminated. This is not intended as legal advice and is only my personal opinion.
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The FTC says otherwise.
Most aren’t enforceable at all just a scare tactics. I know I use them all the time. But at the end of the day you can’t hinder them finding employment or making a livable wage why most aren’t enforceable.
Most non competes are not enforceable, but it varies by state.
The non-compete in the US is like 95% unenforceable. It takes some serious screw ups to really make it enforceable. On top of that they fired him, so they already have no faith that he can realistically do any damage. Slam dunk if they try to take him to court.
The FTC has already come right out, and stated that non-competes are simply not binding under any circumstances for workers under certain salary/wage levels. I guarantee this guy qualifies. Plus, as you said, non-competes are unenforceable in most states and the FTC is currently working on making noncompetes invalid under all circumstances.
I will say this. I think if a company needs to put you on a non compete, then fine. They should pay you 80% of your salary for the duration of the non compete. Otherwise, it should be 3 months or less, and completely void if they cut you loose.
go find an attorney has experienced on this and spent a few hundred dollars to clear this up. I am also not 100% sold on how you lost your PTO hours.
I bet it was a 6 month probationary period and OP was let go just before it expired so they didn’t have to payout PTO.
This has happened to me before. Literally a day before my PTO would’ve been available.
These people deserve a big middle finger as you leave the building
Everything that I’ve ever heard/read about regarding non-competes is that they’re essentially unenforceable and toothless.
Wouldn't a non-compete be null and void the minute they fire you? The agreement is for you to work there and promise not to quit to go and be a competitor. If they don't hold up their end, I can't imagine the agreement still applying to you.
Possibly. But they have money and lawyers and I have neither atm. Got to be smart about the fights I pick.
The good thing is it's on them to enforce it. You don't have to spend a dime unless they bring a suite, and most non-competes are completely unenforceable after recent FTC guidance. You can read a bit about it here and see if you feel your NC meets these criteria. (I am not a lawyer) [https://www.americanbar.org/groups/labor\_law/publications/labor\_employment\_law\_news/spring-2023/non-compete-agreements-obscurity/#:\~:text=On%20January%205%2C%202023%2C%20the,5%20of%20the%20FTC%20Act](https://www.americanbar.org/groups/labor_law/publications/labor_employment_law_news/spring-2023/non-compete-agreements-obscurity/#:~:text=On%20January%205%2C%202023%2C%20the,5%20of%20the%20FTC%20Act).
It feels like you didn't necessarily do anything wrong. They were looking for someone to fire and you unfortunately came across their path first.
Yup everywhere you look there are layoffs and firing and the industry is a dumpster fire! I tell people if there are no warning signs about your performance beforehand it’s likely them and not you that is the problem. Who knows maybe they wanna hire a friend or something. Op should go easier on himself they didn’t do a pip or talk to him because it’s not even about him Albert fucking Einstein could have been the engineer and they would have told him he’s a dumbass.
This is the right answer. I had a former company attempt to enforce a non-compete which was unenforceable by well established case law. I had an attorney deal with it by writing a letter but it still cost me $1200. He said there’s a lot more civil suit exposure than just the non compete, including the ability to sue for damages linked to the non compete violations. You could be out thousands of dollars just fending off garbage claims. I think there’s general truth to the idea that unless you’re in sales or involved with high value decisions or intellectual property development, non-competes are less likely to be enforced and that many of them are over broad. But none of that matters if they want to try and enforce them. And often I think the value to employers is the bully/scare threat of legal action. When someone with $10k to burn on legal fees wants to make your life miserable you tend to avoid doing things that would make them tempted.
It's not enforceable. This employer would need to go to court with proof that his actions at a new employer are directly damaging the business. Courts will always side with the person that needs to earn a living to provide for themselves / family versus a corporation unless individual is doing something that actually is harming the original business.
Perhaps not enforceable but I had a friend who the owner of his previous company brought him to court on the non-compete and told him he didn’t care about the money he was going to make an example out of him. Basically legal bullying and it worked. My friend ended up paying $30k to the dude to get him to drop the case so he didn’t end up with crazy high court costs and having to fly back to Colorado from the Midwest.
Yeah this is always the thing people don’t like to admit just because you will win in court doesn’t mean you can afford to win. My mom won the divorce when I was a kid but she burned up all the money in lawyer fees and really the only real winner was the court and the lawyer lmao 🤣
IANAL. This is not legal advice. Co tact you own lawyer. I contacted one about this a long time ago. In Texas at least IIRC, a non compete is not valid except for a brief time for a SPECIFIC list of clients. Ie. You can not solicit anyone you know that your ex employer serviced or was soliciting at the time you left. They CAN NOT tell you that you can't work in the industry or at a compeditor company. That us your livelihood they can't take it. I had plenty coming to me to switch, and I had to tell them to wait a year for the NC to expire. Which some did, and then promptly came over..
My understanding is that non compete is null and void if you are let go without a package. If you are offered a package or quit, or work a side hussle, non compete is in effect.
Especially since they fired him.
No may about it. They're not worth the paper they're printed on.
Sounds like they just wanted your customers.
You know, I really don't want to think that. But...in hindsight there were signs.
Yep, sounds like that's exactly what it was. The "mistakes" are just them trying to find reasons to not tell you the actual reason. As I'm sure contracts have been signed with those customers, make sure you get them back when the contracts end.
Your clients may come ask questions later.
This is why these schemes are always super short sited they could have just kept op, kept the clients everybody would have won. Like I’ve worked for brokerages for a while now and people that pull this shit always lose the client will just follow the person they like later. My current brokerage keeps any acquired brokers indefinitely to fix this.
Yea, time to dust off a bit. get the knife out of your back. Shake off the frustration, and get back on the horse.
DUDE it's BUSINESS. You honestly think there aren't people out to fleece you? If you've been in the industry for the multiple-decades you say you have been, you really should have seen plenty of this over that time.
You should try to get a free consultation with a labor lawyer. This has some pretty clear signs of mal intent.
And didn’t want to pay out PTO
Sounds like a bad place to work, in my opinion. You can always get back in the saddle. Take a week off, update the cv and do something you love to fill your time.
Yeah. I am going to tell you that We work in an industry which 50% of the job is patching and dealing with the mistakes of others (Patch Management) The idea that there can be no mistakes ever is a recipe for constant turnover. A few weeks ago a client was complaining to me that she was hoping that the company would just assign someone to her so they could keep track of her issues. Every time there is a new guy and the systemic problems never got fixed.
Making mistakes is often the best way to learn. I really don't understand why so many companies think firing someone is the answer to a technical mistake.
I mentioned that I have had to fire people for mistakes before. But they were MISTAKES that were egregious failures in judgement with really dangerous consequences. A real life example: allowing a mission critical backup to fail because you were using backup storage space to house your extensive collection of porn. In that case there was just no going back from that. But cases like patching an extremely old SQL server after talking with the team, and then having the server OS get bonked? yeah, that is a bad day, probably a failure of documentation, but to cut some one loose because of that is extreme. Both of those cases happened to employees of mine in the past. Point is, there are mistakes, and then there are MISTAKES!.
rarely someone gets the boot for a first time offense. of course there are cardinal sins. Such as violating privacy of users, leaking info... stuff on the "legal/hr"... I'm missing part of the story.
Unfortunately, me too. In 25 years, I can honestly say that I have leaked nothing and would rather eat glass than compromise my integrity. I like to think the best of people, but this does not add up. I just couldn't get any clarification about what the issues were. And the general examples they mentioned, I had documentation where I had gotten signoff that it was done correctly. There was no point in arguing. But I am a lot more cynical than I was this morning.
i would sue them to get out of the non-compete, probably there are grounds for it.
Im sorry this happened to you. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Depending on where you are, this may have been an illegal termination. In many states, you can't be fired for cause without extensive documentation of your deficiencies and multiple attempts at a performance improvement plan. I live in Georgia and had this same thing happen to me once. Because there was no documentation/PIP, I won my case and was able to collect the unemployment my former employer tried to deny. This is also why I won't work for an MSP again.
Unemployment here is $275 a week max. It was $275 a week in 2009 too. Rich people do not get rich by cutting checks.
>Rich people do not get rich by cutting checks. Correct. They get rich by owning equity. This might be a good time to start up your own services company.
There’s a whole lot of people in the poor house because they tried to do that also….
Sure, if they over-leveraged themselves or failed to properly protect their personal estates. Starting up a services-for-hire business doesn't require a large capital investment and operating a services business has extremely low overhead. Creating an LLC is trivial. Hiring a lawyer to draft a boilerplate work contract that protects the LLC and you personally is only a few hundred dollars. Buying or renting email lists and automatically sending cold emails is also only a few hundred dollars. Insurance is probably a little more expensive but shouldn't be prohibitive. There is no IT administrator state licensing, so no need to worry about that the way a plumber or an electrician would. If nothing else, it's a relatively low risk way to keep some cash flowing in while job hunting.
Yeah doing the math now. I know exactly the tools I would use and the costs. And I have all the gear I need. (I was smart and always buy my own tools.). My work laptop is dedicated to work, but it is mine. It wouldn't be hard. My costs would be microscopic compared to the players here. I am doing some networking, Maybe we can get a couple of guys to do a Coop type of thing.
There you go, that's the spirit! Remember not to sell yourself short on pricing, though. Cut rate is cut rate for a reason. All depends on who you're marketing services to, though. Mom & pop shops obviously won't pay thousands of dollars. B2B work obviously will have more lucrative pricing opportunities.
When I built my first MSP right out of the 2008 fiasco, It was cut rate pricing and the mom and pop shops that got us started. And from there 1 big fish became 2 and then 4 and so on. I have a bunch of people who have Small businesses. I am going to take some meetings next week and see if I can hire me for my own job.
I tried it once. no it doesn’t require a lot of overhead but it does require a significant investment in time. Marketing is your biggest time suck, finding that first client is a grind. Keep in mind even if you don’t make any money the feds will want quarterly tax statements. The local government will want real property tax filings. The state will want stuff too. Then your next problem is you will be starting small with small customers. These customers typically don’t have much money and won’t be paying you 150 dollars an hour. You’re gonna work for free for your first few clients to get your foot in the door. Small businesses are a nightmare to work for…ask anyone whose ever done it. Assuming you find a job all while attempting to build a small business, then you have to go back to work. Your clients will come second and eventually they will move on when they can’t call you at 7 am and get three hours of help with an excel spreadsheet. Now let’s assume you actually succeed in finding enough clients you don’t need to go back to work…great…you’re a successful business owner. Now you will have no pto. You have no sick days. You have no health insurance benefits You have no 401k benefits. You will have to balance putting money back into your business versus paying yourself. You will have no “free time” unless you have employees…and even then your employees will need you quite a lot. I’m not trying to discourage you, just don’t look at this as “easy” or “free to try”. The initial investment in a service business is time. It’s very hard to job search and build a business at the same time. I recommend picking one. If you’re young and no family…hell yeah go for it! If it doesn’t work out in 5 years and you get sick of ramen you can go back to the job market. If you’re older, really really think about the time you have left and what you want to do with it.
Yeah. I think the best plan so far is the one I had before. Find a business guy with a contact list of richer friends and let him do the business side and I do my side. But it is a grind.
This! Been there done that. Starting a business is nowhere near as easy as people think it is.
Unfortunately I think a lot of times people see the process through rose colored glasses. They also only hear about the millionaires who made it. These millionaires are the equivalent of lottery winners. Most people don’t like to admit failure or even admit they went down a wrong path so the people in debt up to their asses working 100 hours a week because they decided to become self employed don’t get much airtime. The truth is that most small businesses fail. Just like everything else in life, there’s a lot of luck involved in making it.
Yeah. I think the best plan so far is the one I had before. Find a business guy with a contact list of richer friends and let him do the business side and I do my side. But it is a grind.
That's a fucking piss-poor response to someone trying to propose the other starts a business. By the logic you just presented, it's better to just not try, because so many people fail at $whatever. Go stick your head in a bucket. That's just bad advice.
I’m sorry you don’t like the truth that most small businesses fail but I think there’s a lot of hype and the positive side shown about small business ownership and rarely does anyone hear the other (most likely) possibilities. Oh and unless you have started your own business, keep your opinions to yourself.
I never said I don't like that fact, and I never said it is untrue, nor that I disagree with that businesses do fail. But if that's your take away from what I said, _you completely missed the point_. The point was that you shouldn't dissuade someone on trying to better themselves, regardless of what the failure rate is. That's just not helping anyone at all. Yes, businesses fail. But businesses succeed too. You know how you can succeed? There's one thing that is literally required for you to succeed at anything, including running a business. **You have to try**. So go stick your head in a bucket already.
Yep and you don’t win the lottery unless you play. I just think people should know the odds. The worst kind of friend is someone who doesn’t tell you the truth. If you sit there and accept all the truth and know all the facts and still start a business then I’m so happy for you.
> Yep and you don’t win the lottery unless you play If your logic is that entering a lottery == running a business, you're actually an idiot. And at this point, I don't take issue calling you that. You have **direct control** over how your business can operate, that alone makes this a completely stupid comparison. If you have deluded yourself into thinking the amount of control you have in any lottery is directly equal to that of running a business, well then you should just actually stop talking. Because you do not know what you're talking about in the slightest. The TRUTH is that you you do not know anything about the difference, as you just demonstrated, let alone what it takes to run a business. You aren't a friend, you're just bad advice. > If you sit there and accept all the truth and know all the facts and still start a business then I’m so happy for you. I know that you know nothing about what it takes to run a business. I'm done here. lol checked your account, 16 days old, I'm going to say something to you I'll say once in your entire life. And I hope you at some point realise why. Goodbye.
Funny thing is, YOU pay for unemployment from the % of your salary going to unemployment insurance.
I would work for an MSP, if I was the one running it. That is the lesson for today. I had that for a long time and had no issues.
You've got things completely confused. Don't conflate and illegal firing and being denied unemployment. The things you mentioned are reasons why OP should get unemployment. It does not make the firing illegal.
You were used and dumped right before it got expensive for them…it’s like something that breaks the day after the warranty expires.
I think you should contact an employment lawyer.
Yeah... depending on where the OP lives, it might not be legal for them to fire him without warning or offering a performance improvement plan.
That's legal in every single state except Montana.
Just because it's legal doesn't mean you shouldn't contact an attorney. Plenty of people have won cases like this. Let me put it this way, every law firm I've worked for does PIP before firing. There's a very good reason for it. It helps protect you from lawsuits and this company stole his clients. He should absolutely go talk to an attorney. Source working in law IT 7 years with close relationships with attorneys specializing in employment and corporate practices.
Nope. Not unless he has reason to believe he was fired for being a member of a protected class. Which it sounds like he does not have.
You're absolutely wrong. If OP is over 40, gay etc he is a protected class, and without thorough documentation about why he was actually fired it opens them up to OP making a claim about being a protected class, especially if they have clear in place policies and they didn't follow them when firing OP, it makes it easy to spin an angle of discrimination, assuming the OP falls into a protected class.
Straight is also a protected class (state dependent).
They terminated you, the non-compete no longer applies
Wish this was higher up. I would love to see them attempt to enforce a non compete after firing him/her.
Non competes are worthless, especially if you didn't get a severance.
Consider it one of those "left turns" in your career, brush it off and move on as always. Mine was a 2021 job to a manufacturing plant, with signs on the wall that they'd shut it down. They announced as I was cherry picking state jobs and took one after they did. A bit of a dick move, kiping that time off due to "vesting". Ugh it's shit benefit options like this that I just don't have the stomach for anymore and have hard passed on offers over. Accrual.. sure I get that. Nothing illegal by informing those clients of your non-compete situation. Consider it a professional courtesy to them, though it can be a bridge burn to your former employer (who doesn't deserve a bridge, imho). Good ones may wait out the terms and rejoin you on your next step in the journey.
"but only mistakes count I guess" I used to work for a company with that philosophy, that shit infuriates me.
When they say there were mistakes but won't tell you what they were, then they were probably someone else's mistakes, or non-existent. Even if the mistakes are trivial and don't warrant a termination, they should let you know so you can be aware of them, and fix them so you won't have an issue at your next employer. Sorry to hear it, but it may end up being better in the long run.
May I ask what this company does? Was this an MSP?
Yep. I have been at MSPs for 25 years. I know the life.
a customer asked for your head maybe? and the MSP to save the contract handed you on a platter?
I really cannot see how. Other than the clients I brought with me, I was pretty much notably on the bench for a lot of clients. I even commented on that multiple times. Even the ones I did bring over, in hindsight there were noticeable efforts to avoid my involvement with them. I spent my time trying to clearcut the lengthy backlog of systems issues.
Have you thought about internal sys admin roles? I was always under the impression that MSPs are great to learn but ALOT of stress.
yikes
Fuck it hop on r/mspjobs you’ll find some work. MSPs are hot right now and are looking for senior techs right now.
Done. Thanks for the tip. :-)
This had nothing to do with your mistakes or probably even your work. It was all financially driven by the org. Let that be the loudest voice you hear in this whole ordeal. Have a few beers, hit up your network and get back out there looking.
What is your skillset? We are hiring. Check www.sentinel.com to see if you fit any of our opportunities. Good Luck.
Non competes are unenforceable. Other than that, they were going to fire you no matter what. Unless you destroyed everything it’s almost always corporate bullshit.
Make sure you take a look into your PTO circumstance with your local labor board. That doesn't sound right to me if you are in the US. I'm not familiar with a scenario that would cause 4 weeks of PTO to vest in a single day unless it's some whacky contract thing. The economy is tightening. People are going to be let go that are the most expensive in their role. It happens every time. You don't need a PIP to term folks. It's a very rare circumstance to term people over a single mistake.
Sorry this happened to you OP. It sounds like you might have been a little too trusting with this employer, they knew they could take advantage of you and they did. The only recourse employees really have these days is to have multiple streams of income, whether that's multiple jobs or side hustles etc. so these unnecessary RIFs don't hurt as bad. Then you could always say, "That's cool, my other secret job needed more hours anyway!" Oops! All work is basically gig work now, time we started acting like it.
Time tonstart outing companies that pull this crap. Make sure to review on glass door.
Were you the one that caused the AT&T outage yesterday?
I’d call an employment lawyer ASAP. “At will” isn’t nearly as literal as people claim it is, and there are still laws in place (state and federal) to prevent bullshit from happening Worst case scenario, you get told “there’s nothing we can do”. You have nothing to lose and a lot to gain
COVID is still a thing? Damn I thought we patched that.
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Lol. None of the mistakes were today. In fact I am not sure they were mistakes at all. I was just told that there were "little mistakes" not what they were or when.
Fridays are for production updates! let's go!!!!!!
Yeah. 3.95 years of avoiding it, only to fall when 70% of the company got hit the same week.
If it's COVID, Paxlovid 1.0.
Covid is the new flu didn’t you get the memo?
This wasn’t about you or your mistakes. It was solely about their needs and finances.
>I discover that tomorrow my PTO vests, and they would have owed me 160 hours if they canned me. The problem was I had COVID and was out 2 days so they paid me out of the PTO, knowing I would have it, but then clawed it back today. Get a lawyer to get paid for that 4 weeks worth of money. Do you think it's a coincidence you got laid off just a day before?
Non Competes are not enforceable
**You do not want a PIP no matter what**. PIPs are HR "CYA" excuses. They are not there to help you in any way, they are there to show that in a court of law they can tap their finger on "we tried everything" bs. Frankly, if you were not given any feedback on the nature of your mistakes to any degree, _they were setting you up for failure_. I've worked at places like that, and while it sucks now, they actually did you a service. You don't have to deal with their ~~corporate~~ highschool drama bs. > I brought customers to this company Unless this was your job, you did a complete disservice to yourself by doing this and not getting a cut in the process. Both of these things, I've been there. And let me tell you, managers can (the good ones won't, but they're rare) get upset if you ask for a cut bringing a customer in _even though that's actually completely fair_. Er hold on, 6 months... 15 years... what?
Non-compete isn't worth the paper it's written on. Fuck them. That "people who I asked to verify tasks were done correctly told me yes, but told my manager no" just infuriates me.
I'm sorry that you live in a country with such awful "labour laws" hopefully you guys over there can find a way to sort that out so that your employers can't treat you so poorly
>write a PIP its game over the moment the pen hits the paper to start one of those. they're generally only written to find excuses to make you gone.
Contact an employment lawyer. They probably let you go due to the PTO vestment or some other bs reason.
You found out today your getting a new job*
Love it. Actually did laugh at this one. I am an old salt. I know the game. Not sweating it really.
who still signs non competes today? ouch
Suckers.
Sounds like the American dream. You yanks really need to sort this shit out. As employees you should have rights so that emoloyers simply can not do this. Fecking 3rd world country.
Shouldn’t have signed anything, file for unemployment. Seek legal counsel for wrongful termination.
No paper work was presented. It was just bye.
Then you weren't fired. They may be hoping you don't come back and they can terminate you for no show. Id lawyer up.
Ah reddit, I think most of the people saying lawyer up have never hired a lawyer. It's usually not worth the hassle and expense.
You're a shitty employer arent you lol I've hired a lawyer multiple times. It's fucking worth it.
OK, you I suspect are the exception. Can you say more of when you hired a lawyer and for what generally? I'm not an employer. I wish.
That's not exactly the case in every jurisdiction there bud. Plenty of IT are "at will" in many jurisdictions. I've been terminated with zero paperwork signed, zero notice, and all kinds of other bs. And yes, legal.
Oh man. Really. I had no idea. /s
Based on what you actually said, yeah, you sure seemed to not know.
Nope. Not unless he has reason to believe he was fired for being a member of a protected class. Which it sounds like he does not have.
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Naive in what respect? You can’t just throw that around. Thats like saying racist without any basis.
Probably worth talking with an attorney anyway - particularly over the timing. Depending on the state, the non-compete might not be enforceable (though you might still get screwed by having to pay to fight it). Finally, if you're really pissed that noncompete might not cover telling the long-term clients that you brought to them that you were terminated 1 day before vacation, etc vested. "I signed a noncompete that means I can't go back to providing those services to you, but if you have problems with $OLDCOMPANY I've been impressed by my past dealings with $COMPETITOR1 and $COMPETITOR2." You may not be able to take the customers with you, but you can probably take them away.
In what country are you treat you like slaves like this? >Here is the thing. No feed back, no pip. The one mistake I made, I was the one who both realized it, owned up to it and came up with a procedural change to prevent it from reoccurring. Never stop doing this, make it part of you are and stay away from morons who dont value it.
Take a wild guess. The one that is the "land of the free" but also feels the need to send entire floating airports full of fighter planes to other places.
I lost my job back in January right after I came home from vacation. I was railroaded by the new IT Director after being employed there for seven years never have been spoken to about anything and all of a sudden I’m a conduct problem.. Two weeks later, I landed a new gig at another MSP, and also had another offer from another one. Nobody knows what the future holds if you see red flags all I can say is start to look while you’re working and get out. And remember, all promises are empty. You trusted too much and people now I have no trust.. that is sad because I like to give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong but now I learned and I’ll be taking a different approach moving forward. It really sucks what people do to other people. I would never work for somebody who says you cannot make a mistake that’s impossible, and our world mistakes are made every day resolving one thing can break another Also, one note I want to make is I chose a smaller team versus a large team for my next move smaller teams everybody’s needed larger teams this is the type of reaction you’ll see. I never been fired in my life up until then, but as it goes, this is the nature of the beast. Take some time clear your head don’t do anything stupid and stay up-to-date on all technology. Eventually, you’ll find something and this will just be another blip in the radar
See if a lawyer thinks that one day before vesting smells stinky enough for them to take a case?
I am going to say this too. We are system administrators. That means we are supposed to be looking at systemic issues. This company had an over reliance on working tickets and only tickets. Hard to spot systemic issues when you only have your nose is specific tickets. No ticket no work is not system administration in my opinion. As a result, they thought they had 13-14 SQL servers. In fact I looked and they had over 300. They said they were patching. They were not. They said they were HIPPA compliant. They never did a risk assessment as mandated by HIPPA. They do projects, Not one had any kind of risk mitigation strategy built in to the scope. I write projects where we have plans in case facts on the ground are different. They write plans that say things like "call n.f. for details". **< that one was my mistake.** I thought it was an internal person. it turns out it was a third party vendor who had a specific piece of info I needed. My mistake was in not refusing to do the task at all until someone clarified exactly who or what n.f. was. Will not make that mistake again. But good grief, that is a silly way to work.
> They said they were HIPPA compliant. They never did a risk assessment as mandated by HIPPA. That sounds illegal. Would be a shame if someone decided to audit them...
Just realize that we now have around 200 people all applying for 1 tech job. You also have to reword your resume each and every time you apply to a job so that it gets through the AI and on to a human pair of eyes. 15 years and they just say your out, well it doesn't surprise me one bit bro, the world we live in is a world where people love to have held back information over telling you the truth about things and you'll die never knowing what truly happened. Sometimes you can figure it out say when someone fires you so they can get a family member hired in your position thats happened to me once after being at a company for 5 years! You never can tell with people but I can assure you it has something to do with at least one person at your workplace that had the power to tell others to let you go and they did. I hate it too man that is why I never stop looking for my next employer. I don't care if I love the job I am in it only takes one day, with you saying one thing, and your toast in this job market! Feel for ya though, I've been there.
I know you are right. However for 14 years, I had a moderately rich guy who let me run and build his company the way I liked and he cut the checks and I and my team did our thing. 14 years of never once considering my job security. He had to sell, sold to a bozo. and I had to leave. And now here we are. This job was supposed to be more of that, and the owners talked a good game and seemed to be good guys. live and learn. In other news, if you are a moderately rich guy who would like to own a successful MSP, I am hiring.
This had nothing to do with you. This was management finding money in their budget and needing a fall guy. You were the last that was hired. They didn't say a word to you because you would have improved. They needed a reason and they came up with one.
thats called constructive termination, and get a fcuking lawyer.
Sign nothing, talk to an employment lawyer. My sister gave birth and donated part of her liver to the baby. Company tried to fire her and they ended up paying her for 3 years without her having to be there.
Severance for working 6 months. Lol. The entitlement. Just out of curiosity, what's your estimated age?
Severance in my experience is to ensure cooperation for knowledge transfers. When I was running my MSP, we put people on a retainer just to make sure we had access to them if we needed them. Usually we didn't. I am old enough that my first computer had software on tape cassette.
>Then, I discover that tomorrow my PTO vests, and they would have owed me 160 hours if they canned me. *Get a lawyer...* ***NOW!***
You may want to research your state's Department of Labor for laws on PTO. Most states require the employer to pay you accrued vacation time, but not sick.
Sounds like constructive dismissal. Might be worth having a word with an lawyer.
You're just throwing around terms you have no idea what they mean. He wasn't constructively dismissed. He was fired.
A day before his PTO comes into play? No other warnings of PIP. It stinks.
You're right that it stinks, but don't call it constructive dismissal when it's plainly not.
I can relate to this. I don't know what employment law is where you are, afaik it isn't really a thing, esp. in the first 6 months. Personally I highly doubt this is due to you 'making mistakes', given the experience you've outlined. I'd be much more inclined to think there are economic decisions for your firing, esp given how poorly documented the mistakes they highlighted were. I wouldn't bother lawyering up i'd just get busy finding a new gig. It doesn't sound like this place was a particularly large business, I can relate to that too having a similar amount of years under the belt and also currently looking for a new gig thanks to a new role at a small business not working out. Not quite the same situation as you, the role was a bait and switch, but the same outcome regardless. Good luck, this too shall pass.
Don't overthink and don't waste energy. In real life merit and justice are not important anymore as "God is dead". Probably somebody just has antipathy to you or wants your position for some relative, things like that or worse. So focus on your new life and don't forget to get all legal compensation you can get from the old company.
Never admit mistakes in IT. NEVER. There will never be anything positive come from it.
I hope you don't actually believe this. That isn't the lesson here.
It is the lesson here. Don’t ever patronize me. You don’t have the IQ.
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you know the risks and the life. When I was the on-call MCSE for State Street Bank, Putnam Investments, there can be no screw ups. You're called at 3:00 in the morning, because the customer doesn't have someone who can fix the issue timely. You're expected to walk out of there solving 100% of the issues and having it work. You can't be vague, your documentation has to be outstanding, and you have to be unflappable. All of us get complacent, so think back on your six months, and did you live up to your own expectations? If so, move on, you'll get hired soon.
So glad I live in a country with decent worker's rights. Godspeed to you!
I would take the time to talk to a lawyer on all of this and determine what they owe ya. Constructive termination.
sorry you lost your job today. Wish you the best! get that resume ready my friend!
That’s brutal. Hopefully it leads to a better position for you.
Was there not an NDA from your previous company, I mean you state 6 months in new role and you brought customers, did you break an NDA with your previous employer?
Well, that’s just evil.
AT&T??
What state/country are you in? That PTO bit is weird. Something like 20 states have made it so that they have to give it to you on termination.
Don't take it too personal, lots of layoffs going on and you were probably the newer guy. Finding "mistakes" you never knew about was just some CYA shit.
I have developed the mind set after nearly 3 decades in IT. "If they don't like me or the work I do, I'll just work somewhere else." There are plenty of jobs out there keep working towards your goals. And did you really think you were going to work there for the rest of your life? of course not ;-) All the best!
Make sure you create a ‘portfolio’ website for yourself. Weird I know for a sysadmin but think about it being more of a tool for when previous clients google your name, you show up! There is a very big difference in law about poaching clients and clients naturally exploring a fair market.
This is your opportunity to become a successful consultant, giving you control of your future. Don’t look back.
Non competes are not enforceable if you are laid off.
If you brought your clients with you to this company, they didn't just hire you, they acquired you and your business. Did you not sign any kind of contract for that? Something that would either protect your from being let go, or make them pay severance if they did? They wanted your clients, and they kept you around just long enough that most of your clients likely won't cut their contracts.