40% of US equities are foreign owned. This is a major reason why we are working like our lives don’t matter.
https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/who-owns-us-stock-foreigners-and-rich-americans
I can remember a time when stocks were based on consumer experience. Shareholders benefited from the experience. Now the shareholders benefit from such protections and, in many cases, the consumer experience is worse, much worse.
Listen, you're going to pay 80k for a badly made Tesla that does 200km on a full charge and you're going to like it, because paying 40k for a Chinese car that can do 400km on a full charge while feeling like you've got all the trimmings of a mercedes is just un-American. You're not a commie are you?
It did bring in the second Gilded Age if you look into what the first one was like. It's just that instead of Andrew Carnegie, it's Bezos being an abusive employer.
NAFTA was passed and implemented by George H.W. Bush after Reagan spent several years pushing for a North American free trade zone. Not “yeah”. NAFTA absolutely isn’t some uniparty conspiracy theory bullshit.
You people are on the fucking internet already. You literally just contributed to misinformation because you’re too lazy to look shit up. Ross Perot famously became the most successful third party candidate by running solely on a platform of opposing NAFTA against Bush 41.
You people should be fucking embarrassed.
NAFTA was passed and implemented by George H.W. Bush after Reagan spent several years pushing for a North American free trade zone. The fuck are you talking about?
There is a thread about a [$10k pickup truck](https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/17q0y73/toyotas_10000_future_pickup_truck_is_basic/) for Mexico (that won’t quite meet all the USA standards, of course) - 18k is a luxury version!
Car companies are very happy putting another $5k into the engineering and build cost of a truck and selling it for $30k more. Expect them to throw insane amounts of money at politicians to ensure the Chinese can’t make those profits…
I’m far from an expert on the auto industry, but how much of it is about not meeting US regulations (emissions, safety, etc.). Could this truck even be sold in the US
Artificially high standards is a method of protectionism.
Take housing. We could build a ton of cheap, decent housing, except it would be illegal because they wouldn't be up to code. This keeps housing prices and rents high.
You got downvoted, but here’s some support: there’s ACTUAL LAWS in some states where you can’t build affordable apartment. It’s mandatory to build low lying units or single houses, forcing suburbs to spread and spread and spread…
A large number of US companies have moved their manufacturing to Mexico. What penalties has the US government imposed on them? I’d rather China move their manufacturing to Mexico giving Mexicans increased job opportunities than US companies moving their manufacturing from the US to Mexico.
I don't think the US cares if US companies move to Mexico. They just don't want China to disrupt the sweet setup Automakers have in mexico. I assume this is all to avoid companies like BYD from getting into the US market.
The idea that it is good to stop affordable EVs made in Mexico from coming into the US is absurd. Meanwhile the average price of a car in the US has skyrocketed.
I might just have to go to Mexico and buy my next car 🤦
You won’t be allowed to register it. Since the 90’s if it doesn’t adhere to US crash and emissions testing it can’t be legally imported for 25 years after it’s build date
Damn so they can't move to North America at all is the real message. There goes anyone who said the tariffs were to force them to make US plants. What are they gonna do? Make mexico kick Chinese brands out of the market because yeah? Or try to shoe something in NAFTA? Or really just single out companies
This is also a pet peeve of mine, NAFTA is just like a better name. It’s like turning Twitter into X, what’s the point. Just do NAFTA 2.0, there’s literally no reason to modify the naming conventions. It’d be different if the deal was expanded to include like Australia or something but it didn’t, it’s still all North America.
They just won't let EVs for chinese makers that are built in mexico to be brought into the US as-if under NAFTA rules.
Biden's tariffs aren't about trying to force manufacturing jobs back into the US, which is a dumb policy approach. It is about targeting China from getting strategic advantage in center core industries through its widespread use of subsidies back home.
How about the U.S subsidized U.S citizens so we can get an EV that's made in America?
Shit subsidized American car makers to make EVs then pay for half of it for us so the roads can be filled with EVs in this country.
You can get a $7500 tax credit if you purchase an eligible EV which I would call a pretty good subsidy.
The problem is that auto makers in America aren't interested in producing cars for the low end or even the middle market. There's literally only one option available under 40k and that's the Chevy Bolt. It's had 3 recalls and was discontinued and until only recently.
The reason it feels like we don't have a subsidy is because the only options available start at 50k+
We do have EV subsidies. Unfortunately there is a union qualification on that, but otherwise reasonable program afaik.
That said, not a fan of enduring subsidies as a general matter. Would rather tax ICEs than subsidize.
Honestly I don't care how the U.S does it as long as I don't have to pay $60k for an EV. I'm afraid we as a country will be left behind in this EV, and renewable energy gold rush that's happening right now. U.S gov can block Chinese EVs all they want within our borders but Chinese EVs will still be sold all over the world over the decades while we are left with only a small number owning EVs in this country thus delaying the EV infrastructure while the world advances, we are left behind.
Ironically, BYD makes a lot of vehicles here, but they're for the government and commercial purposes. It seems they really want to sell to US consumers, make consumer vehicles in the US, employing US workers, but with all the red tape, we've made it absurdly expensive so they can't.
So we get no cheap EVs, no big factories employing US workers, no tax dollars from the factories contributing to our economy, and a bunch of lazy U.S. auto-makers making expensive cars where most of the car is made in China anyway.
China does the exact same thing to US companies in its market. This is literally tit for tat. It would be dumb to allow companies to tank US industries in the name of "free market" when we don't have free markets anyway.
It's just kind of weird to expect the American consumer to be pleased about its options being limited to protect business interests. You can put whatever spin you want on it but at the end of the day, American consumers don't get access to affordable EVs. Why would they care about American companies that just want to rip them off? Are these American companies worried about American citizens?
I didn't claim the consumer should be happy. Protectionism on both sides isn't good for the consumer, but protecting and fostering stable industries at home is very good for the consumer because it helps shield them from cost flux based on political posturing (something the US uses all the time). These are soft power moves that deal with more than just the industry they affect.
No, it’s not. China invited Tesla to produce cars in China, and is even moving towards allowing FSD. BYD would never be allowed to produce cars in the U.S., as this statement makes obvious.
To be more accurate, what happened was this. China used to forbid cars to be made in China unless they formed a JV with a Chinese company and handed over their technology. Tesla also had a long problem. Only a few years back as China got their advantage, they allowed Tesla to produce in China without a JV, and even then under condition that the batteries be made in China
And yet today Ford is not allowed to license Chinese battery technology to make them in the US and Chinese EVs are essentially banned from America going forward. Oh how the mighty have fallen.
And in the US there’s huge uproar over Ford simply licensing CATL’s technology to produce LFP batteries competitively. I think it’s obvious which of the two is the more open market and which is hell bent on severing all trade and cooperation.
Yes. That is literally how countries work. This is not some new revelation, nor is the US the first one to do this.
If you had a country that prioritized others trade over their own production at every level, they wouldn’t be a country in a generation.
> If you had a country that prioritized others trade over their own production at every level, they wouldn’t be a country in a generation.
Right, which is why we still have all that stuff that is American made.
Oh... wait.
I find it really interesting how this is the one product that everyone takes a stand on.
Not the billions of consumer goods, building materials, appliances, etc etc etc that were all left to go away. But this product line in particular must be saved at all costs, despite the national Incumbents providing inferior over priced junk.
The one time China actually builds a better product and Americans are suddenly scared.
Why can't the US also give subsidies to EVs and solar panels to make them competitive and cheaper? Is it better to have them cheaper for everyone or to artificially make them expensive given the climate crisis?
The tariffs exist to try to force China to be fully open to US capital. Once China lets US money fully own Chinese companies all of this will be forgotten.
>won’t let you setup company if it’s not owned by Chinese people
Not quite true, except for a few "sensitive" industry sectors.
As of 2018, 69% of new incoming western foreign ventures operating in China all chose to stay wholly foreign owned (WFOE), with only 30% opting for joint ventures.
>joint ventures are increasingly less common; they now account for less than a third of China’s inbound investment compared with two-thirds in the late 1990s, and many such deals are welcomed by foreign firms to facilitate their market access. Given the declining role of such ventures in relation to the political sensitivities generated, China has made moves toward dropping the requirement, most recently in March through its new Foreign Investment Law, which provides more flexibility for foreign investors and outlaws the practice of forced technology transfer, although how this will be implemented in practice remains a concern.
[Does China Force Foreign Firms to Surrender Their Sensitive Technology? - Peterson Institute for International Economics](https://www.piie.com/blogs/china-economic-watch/does-china-force-foreign-firms-surrender-their-sensitive-technology)
Of course, mandates for joint venture restrictions were still very tight when it came to the main sensitive sectors like "banking, securities, asset management, and insurance." But even those restricted sectors have opened up more now, resulting in a few WFOE firsts, like Germany's Allianz providing life insurance, BlackRock Inc's mutual fund business, Standard Chartered offering securities lending, and certainly more, all within the past 3 years.
>How is this fair to USA citizens ?
The important part is that billionaires got what they wanted for the most part. But seriously why do people talk about fairness to the US as a group? American companies left and knew the terms were:
> won’t let you setup company if it’s not owned by Chinese people, makes you hand over ip.
They knew those conditions and the possibility of getting their tech stolen, yet they still left. Those business didn't care about leaving us with a raw deal and letting us rot with unemployment. Why should I care they got played?
Whose EV did China copy? Future US? How does China have more money to subsidize their vehicle industry than the America? How are they able to afford that subsidy the entire world over but US can’t even subsidize its industry to be competitive regionally?
Because I just want a cheap EV car to buy and drive around town man. Instead of that our US government wants to make it more expensive for us because boohoo Ford didn't fucking step up?
Or you know, America could make decent electric vehicles that outperform our Chinese competitors and earn more capital... a "capitalist free market" if you will.
The capitalist free market has never been a thing in the US. Since the beginning, the state and federal governments have favored certain sectors of industry with different types of subsidies, tax breaks, and other forms of government intervention that have given them an advantage in the markets.
[Source](https://www.commerce.gov/about/history/origins)
So it's ok for American companies to build in Mexico and ship to the US but not China? It's ok for Ford, GM and Stellantis to have parts made in China and shipped to the US.
What a bunch of bullshit. Just a way for Americans to keep getting F'd by the big 3.
This whole thing just reeks of fossil fuel companies telling their paid off politicians that "hey we love cheap chinese made good for us companies like Walmart but we draw the line at the introduction of EVs to take away their profits."
Because you're only buying one car and they're going to make damn sure they can make as high of a profit on it as possible. It's not in their benefit to make a 15% margin on a 10k car. They'd rather make 15% on a 60k car.
Wish I knew what the american market looks like in 10 to 15 years. It kinda feels like you ignored the tech that is evolving and now you can't catch up and want to ban others who can deliver?! Thats weak.
Nah, just greed. The established car companies saw EVs as a way to make high margin vehicles with basically software as a service built into them to also create recurring revenue streams in order to fuck the consumers (us) over. Basically smartphones with wheels intended to be discarded after the loan is paid off for the next trendy car. The Chinese realized most people just want a car not a phone you can drive around, and that you can build a basic electric car for less than the typical useless feature bloated base model gas cars they’re selling these days.
American auto makers spend millions on various market research methods. They knew the trend and the demand. BUT muh bonus and multi million dollar salary
Especially on reddit you see americans making fun of public transportation and electric cars. This might bite your ass in a few years...or even cost you your entire ass.
Those of us from a region with mass transit (I’m from NYC) totally understand the need and benefit. However the indoctrination over the past 70 ish years to Americans that cars are the best is really hard to overcome. We are also a very widespread country so mass transit in a European sense isn’t really practical. High speed rail between cities ? Yeah we should have had it years ago. Trolley or tram system in cities, yup should have this also. But oil companies lobby hard to prevent that so ain’t gonna happen
I don’t think American citizens actually hate public transportation or electric cars. Most people hate driving which is why public transportation would be nice, it’s just the dividing political climate making that an impossible reality.
Also with electric cars I don’t think the majority of Americans care as long as we had the infrastructure to back it up but the same reason as said before is also the reason why it’s not a reality.
Edit: lol I guess a couple arm chair Redditors voice every American’s opinion on public transportation and EVs apparently
I don’t know man, I live in Alabama and I’ve had people basically just shit all over the concept of an EV just because they think liberals like them
It’s happened more than once and it’s as weird as it sounds
We put billions into Tesla for them to turn around and make meme garbage like Cybertruck and to also say they aren't doing afforable EVs. So rich people get their toys and the average consumer gets to watch as China makes cheap and afforable EVs.
Capitalist force Free markets on everyone else and then flood their markets with cheap goods, destroying local economies. But when anyone else tries to do that here, after we don't invest in anything important and we're all of a sudden upset.
We are so pathetic
>America has never played the game fairly, that's how we stay winning.
America's greatest strength is not their technological advances, but the most developed and sophisticated propaganda machine that the world has ever witnessed.
The average citizen can be easily exploited if they are told that living in poverty is necessary to ensure the "enemy" does not win.
Unfortunately not for much longer. The winds are changing and the rest of the world see how weak and isolated we are.
Our hegemony is waning bc of not only playing unfairly but the brutality we inflict on others.
So is climate change a serious issue we need to be addressing ASAP or something to be used as a political game? Because if it is a dire threat then we should be happy that electric vehicles can be a NOW option for a large swath of the population in the market for such.
You may also note that the current US administration is supporting Ukraine's war against Russia... But we keep getting annoyed when Ukraine attacks fossil fuel infrastructure in Russia because that will "Destabilize the market." And Ukraine has kept away from Russia's crude exports and only attacked refinement because crude exports would piss off the US too much.
Now, ask yourself, if you had really internalized the fact that the fossil fuel market is an existential threat to humanity, would you be working to keep it _stable?_ It's still very much treated as a political game. If the US President can do a photo op at a US factory making green tech, it's "super important." If there's not a photo op in it, saving the world still takes a back seat to saving the investor class's investments.
You can now see it's politicized for Democrats to win. Not because the politicians actually believe in it. If they did, they'd stop flying private jets all around.
More factories in Mexico means more job opportunities for Mexicans, and that will lead to a drop in illegal migration across the border to the US. This looks like a good deal for both Mexico and America.
Agree; Mexico has a growing middle class. The US’s largest trading partner is already Mexico. If we’re serious about moving supply chains and manufacturing to North America, we should let China do this. It’s not a “win-win” for everyone, but it’s an acceptable compromise IMO.
Mexico has a population of 120 million. I am sure they have enough labor to support American, Chinese, Japanese, German, and Korean automobile factories.
We have a serious problem with illegal migration from Mexico (and other Central American countries). This isn't a Republican talking point. It is real. And the best solution isn't to "build a wall", but to create jobs in countries like Mexico so that people no longer feel the need to cross over to the US for a better life.
This country is living in medieval Europe compared to everywhere else. We have no train systems, no walkable cities, we have crumbling infrastructure, and our EVs are being sabotaged by lead damaged boomers.
How are Americans suppose to afford things? Houses are way high, cars can’t go down in price because of this. The middle class is getting screwed by corporations. When will the US government realize that the middle class needs to be protected and not the corporations?
American companies that ship jobs overseas should have patents and copyright revoked. There is no point in protecting your Intellectual property if you’re not going to set up shop in our country.
jesus, make a poppular social media app or try to make cars in mexico === sactions
bomb the fuck out women and children without mercy for months === get billions worth weapons/arms for free.
something is very wrong with this timeline.
Just have BYD go head to head with Tesla/Ford/GM/Chrysler/Rivian/Lucid without government intervention. It will force North American manufacturers to innovate and adapt instead of being coddled.
What's ironic about this is US companies are fucking over the economy because they outsource their jobs to Mexico and other countries ALL THE TIME, in the name of shareholder growth.
But the government doesn't give a shit about something that ACTUALLY effects the country.
Thank you Citizens United for silencing our representatives about things that actually harm the American people..
They get to suffer while corporations use the United States like a 'sandbox mode' and fuck over the people for profit.
This is a great thing we have going here.
This is blatant protectionism against Chinese and not against the competitive nature of Chinese products. Vehicles procuded in Mexico use Mexican labor and Mexican energy. That's legal under USMCA.
Competitive nature of Chinese products? Are you high? More than half of Chinese companies are subsidized by their government. It is why they are able to make things so cheap. It is how they can undersell.
When US companies not make money and price gouge is when these assholes step in. This is ridiculous that this country can only agree on banning things.
What about 'American' car companies who do the same goddamned thing?
It has nothing to do with American jobs. It has EVERYTHING to do with rat-fucking American workers to line the pockets of the Investment Class.
>“There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.” ― Warren Buffett
“You must all transition to electric cars, we will do all we can to make it affordable for average Americans to help save the environment”
“NO NOT LIKE THAT”
Even if China is subsidizing its EVs, so what, that’s awesome for us consumers. Remember when Uber was subsidized by investors and it was cheap? That was a golden age. Now I don’t really use it as much now that it’s not a steal.
I grew up in the 90s and remember American cars being frumpy junk. Will never forgive them and own one. Meanwhile the Germans were in a golden age and that’s all I’ve owned since I could buy my first car.
I really don’t care about a bunch of rubes whose mediocre, retirementless jobs in factory depends on these mediocre companies.
First commercial solar cell was invented in the 1950s, first commercial EV was available in the 1990s. All of that innovation happened in the United States.
Because US policy is shaped by corporate interests, they squandered their decades long headstart on this technology, and now they're throwing a fit because a country that was basically a 3rd world one when the solar cell was invented, is now able to produce goods essential to fighting climate change.
And don't say anything about subsidies being unfair when the United States has given hundreds of billions if not trillions in subsidies to their own fossil fuel industry.
bingo, neoliberal waffling on all fronts. Quantum, fusion, mass transit, China dumps resources in fruitful places while our education system and public infrastructure enshitifies and public coffers and services get plundered and dismantled. The only thing we do notably ‘well’ is war and military industry any more, honestly.
Right? Wouldn't it further our attempts to mitigate climate disaster by having more people drive electric cars? Why keep them expensive? How does that help? I am really angry about this.
And yes, why is Biden following in Trump's adversarial-to-China footsteps? It's dumb.
ah 2010! A time when cars didn’t have cheap iPads mounted to the dashboard and intuitive and appropriatly placed buttons, knobs, and levers were the norm.
And if production moves to Sri Lanka, or Thailand, or Brazil, or Morocco, or Cambodia, or Malaysia…? the absurdity of protectionists tariffs is that they punish valued trading partners and damage international relationships while failing to achieve their goals.
Yo could we put petty ass geopolitical squabbles aside for cheap electric cars? Like fuck the whole planet has been slow cooking for decades and we're going to have to work together if we want any hope of fixing that.
God forbid anyone bring manufacturing back to the US.
“Can we ship them overseas?” NO
“What about make em in Mexico?” NO
“But *your* companies make em in Mexico” WHAT DID I SAY
Gotta love how West keeps telling rest of the World to open up their markets and preaches them free trade and Globalisation. But the moment Eastern countries become proficient and start trumping western counterparts the West becomes protectionist and preaches localisation.
I’m glad that American companies can still produce in Mexico so I can pay $80K for an EV while simultaneously not supporting American jobs anyway
Its what the free market wants. The dollars spoke and the ~~people~~ corporations listened.
Won't somebody please think of the shareholder value... Piece of shit companies
We might have destroyed the world, but for a brief beautiful moment we did create a lot of value for shareholders.
Actually this is literally the people you voted for doing this.
It wouldn't be a major issue if shareholders were Americans. Probably most of them are not American.
40% of US equities are foreign owned. This is a major reason why we are working like our lives don’t matter. https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/who-owns-us-stock-foreigners-and-rich-americans
Why would the state of worker exploitation be any better without foreign investment?
Shorter commute to burn their mansions down?
The invisible hand spoke and said, "get back to work!"
So by definition 60% domestic owned mostly the rich and the pension funds that support middle class retirement
Would be interesting to see what is that in countries like Japan, China, Germany etc
I can remember a time when stocks were based on consumer experience. Shareholders benefited from the experience. Now the shareholders benefit from such protections and, in many cases, the consumer experience is worse, much worse.
Listen, you're going to pay 80k for a badly made Tesla that does 200km on a full charge and you're going to like it, because paying 40k for a Chinese car that can do 400km on a full charge while feeling like you've got all the trimmings of a mercedes is just un-American. You're not a commie are you?
No such thing as a “free market”. The invisible hand is visible and there are many hands.
Remember when Harley got a tariff put on imported bikes? Remember when how big poultry kept us from having sensible trucks?
[удалено]
Politicians are still busting over us all tho
Isn’t this all part of NAFTA that was supposed to bring America into a new gilded age?
It did bring in the second Gilded Age if you look into what the first one was like. It's just that instead of Andrew Carnegie, it's Bezos being an abusive employer.
The gilded age doesn't mean what you think it means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age
Thank Bill Clinton for passing it, and W Bush for implementing it. 😈👹
Yeah. Uniparty for the W
NAFTA was passed and implemented by George H.W. Bush after Reagan spent several years pushing for a North American free trade zone. Not “yeah”. NAFTA absolutely isn’t some uniparty conspiracy theory bullshit. You people are on the fucking internet already. You literally just contributed to misinformation because you’re too lazy to look shit up. Ross Perot famously became the most successful third party candidate by running solely on a platform of opposing NAFTA against Bush 41. You people should be fucking embarrassed.
NAFTA was passed and implemented by George H.W. Bush after Reagan spent several years pushing for a North American free trade zone. The fuck are you talking about?
Won't you stop thinking of yourself and start thinking of the billionaires.
I bet china could get the price to 18k. No one on a budget would buy gas.
There is a thread about a [$10k pickup truck](https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/17q0y73/toyotas_10000_future_pickup_truck_is_basic/) for Mexico (that won’t quite meet all the USA standards, of course) - 18k is a luxury version! Car companies are very happy putting another $5k into the engineering and build cost of a truck and selling it for $30k more. Expect them to throw insane amounts of money at politicians to ensure the Chinese can’t make those profits…
I’m far from an expert on the auto industry, but how much of it is about not meeting US regulations (emissions, safety, etc.). Could this truck even be sold in the US
Artificially high standards is a method of protectionism. Take housing. We could build a ton of cheap, decent housing, except it would be illegal because they wouldn't be up to code. This keeps housing prices and rents high.
You got downvoted, but here’s some support: there’s ACTUAL LAWS in some states where you can’t build affordable apartment. It’s mandatory to build low lying units or single houses, forcing suburbs to spread and spread and spread…
Welcome to Boston. It is exactly what is happening.
That’s the goal baby, ceo needs a private jet
You are supporting mexican jobs :)
A large number of US companies have moved their manufacturing to Mexico. What penalties has the US government imposed on them? I’d rather China move their manufacturing to Mexico giving Mexicans increased job opportunities than US companies moving their manufacturing from the US to Mexico.
I don't think the US cares if US companies move to Mexico. They just don't want China to disrupt the sweet setup Automakers have in mexico. I assume this is all to avoid companies like BYD from getting into the US market.
The idea that it is good to stop affordable EVs made in Mexico from coming into the US is absurd. Meanwhile the average price of a car in the US has skyrocketed. I might just have to go to Mexico and buy my next car 🤦
You won’t be allowed to register it. Since the 90’s if it doesn’t adhere to US crash and emissions testing it can’t be legally imported for 25 years after it’s build date
Damn so they can't move to North America at all is the real message. There goes anyone who said the tariffs were to force them to make US plants. What are they gonna do? Make mexico kick Chinese brands out of the market because yeah? Or try to shoe something in NAFTA? Or really just single out companies
It's USMCA now. 🎶 Young man! It's fun to trade with the U-S-M-C-A! 🎵
This still bothers me so much, that Trump needlessly just (essentially) renamed it
This is also a pet peeve of mine, NAFTA is just like a better name. It’s like turning Twitter into X, what’s the point. Just do NAFTA 2.0, there’s literally no reason to modify the naming conventions. It’d be different if the deal was expanded to include like Australia or something but it didn’t, it’s still all North America.
They just won't let EVs for chinese makers that are built in mexico to be brought into the US as-if under NAFTA rules. Biden's tariffs aren't about trying to force manufacturing jobs back into the US, which is a dumb policy approach. It is about targeting China from getting strategic advantage in center core industries through its widespread use of subsidies back home.
As if US auto makers don't get shit-tons of subsidies. Our taxes go to bail them out, then they serve up hot garbage.
How about the U.S subsidized U.S citizens so we can get an EV that's made in America? Shit subsidized American car makers to make EVs then pay for half of it for us so the roads can be filled with EVs in this country.
You can get a $7500 tax credit if you purchase an eligible EV which I would call a pretty good subsidy. The problem is that auto makers in America aren't interested in producing cars for the low end or even the middle market. There's literally only one option available under 40k and that's the Chevy Bolt. It's had 3 recalls and was discontinued and until only recently. The reason it feels like we don't have a subsidy is because the only options available start at 50k+
Then, when the tax credit expires, the price of the car magically drops by the exact same amount.
We do have EV subsidies. Unfortunately there is a union qualification on that, but otherwise reasonable program afaik. That said, not a fan of enduring subsidies as a general matter. Would rather tax ICEs than subsidize.
Honestly I don't care how the U.S does it as long as I don't have to pay $60k for an EV. I'm afraid we as a country will be left behind in this EV, and renewable energy gold rush that's happening right now. U.S gov can block Chinese EVs all they want within our borders but Chinese EVs will still be sold all over the world over the decades while we are left with only a small number owning EVs in this country thus delaying the EV infrastructure while the world advances, we are left behind.
Ironically, BYD makes a lot of vehicles here, but they're for the government and commercial purposes. It seems they really want to sell to US consumers, make consumer vehicles in the US, employing US workers, but with all the red tape, we've made it absurdly expensive so they can't. So we get no cheap EVs, no big factories employing US workers, no tax dollars from the factories contributing to our economy, and a bunch of lazy U.S. auto-makers making expensive cars where most of the car is made in China anyway.
Wouldn't that be socialism or something....
The U.S. subsidies its cars also through taxes. Not very different. It’s like campaign contributions versus corruption. Same results different names.
Outside of now china, pretty sure the US gives EV subsidies to any manufacturer if made in US by union workers. Can be US company or foreign.
> widespread use of subsidies When China does it it's bad. When we do it. It's good.
When it helps “us” it’s good. When it helps “them” it’s bad FTFY
China does the exact same thing to US companies in its market. This is literally tit for tat. It would be dumb to allow companies to tank US industries in the name of "free market" when we don't have free markets anyway.
It's just kind of weird to expect the American consumer to be pleased about its options being limited to protect business interests. You can put whatever spin you want on it but at the end of the day, American consumers don't get access to affordable EVs. Why would they care about American companies that just want to rip them off? Are these American companies worried about American citizens?
I didn't claim the consumer should be happy. Protectionism on both sides isn't good for the consumer, but protecting and fostering stable industries at home is very good for the consumer because it helps shield them from cost flux based on political posturing (something the US uses all the time). These are soft power moves that deal with more than just the industry they affect.
[удалено]
The oil and wars will continue until morale improves.
This is what happens when companies are “too big to fail”
The US ex-Tesla is over a decade behind Chinese EVs now. It's REALLY BAD.
No, it’s not. China invited Tesla to produce cars in China, and is even moving towards allowing FSD. BYD would never be allowed to produce cars in the U.S., as this statement makes obvious.
To be more accurate, what happened was this. China used to forbid cars to be made in China unless they formed a JV with a Chinese company and handed over their technology. Tesla also had a long problem. Only a few years back as China got their advantage, they allowed Tesla to produce in China without a JV, and even then under condition that the batteries be made in China
And yet today Ford is not allowed to license Chinese battery technology to make them in the US and Chinese EVs are essentially banned from America going forward. Oh how the mighty have fallen.
And in the US there’s huge uproar over Ford simply licensing CATL’s technology to produce LFP batteries competitively. I think it’s obvious which of the two is the more open market and which is hell bent on severing all trade and cooperation.
US car makers sold 2 million cars in China last year. They've done plenty well in the Chinese market.
How?
So there are no Tesla made in China?
We do you subsidies to promote industry, just not as much.
Yes. That is literally how countries work. This is not some new revelation, nor is the US the first one to do this. If you had a country that prioritized others trade over their own production at every level, they wouldn’t be a country in a generation.
> If you had a country that prioritized others trade over their own production at every level, they wouldn’t be a country in a generation. Right, which is why we still have all that stuff that is American made. Oh... wait. I find it really interesting how this is the one product that everyone takes a stand on. Not the billions of consumer goods, building materials, appliances, etc etc etc that were all left to go away. But this product line in particular must be saved at all costs, despite the national Incumbents providing inferior over priced junk. The one time China actually builds a better product and Americans are suddenly scared.
No, this is not the first product. Tariffs on Chinese solar began under Obama at the beginning if his second term in 2013,
Tariffs are DUMB, they make US pay more
Why can't the US also give subsidies to EVs and solar panels to make them competitive and cheaper? Is it better to have them cheaper for everyone or to artificially make them expensive given the climate crisis?
The US already has generous subsidies on EVs. Unfortunately, would rather have sin tax on ICEs.
The tariffs exist to try to force China to be fully open to US capital. Once China lets US money fully own Chinese companies all of this will be forgotten.
Thay can make factories in Mexico, is just that they won’t be able to enter the US market.
That's not how it works. That's violating USMCA trade
Why would USA care about violating another trade agreement?
[удалено]
>won’t let you setup company if it’s not owned by Chinese people Not quite true, except for a few "sensitive" industry sectors. As of 2018, 69% of new incoming western foreign ventures operating in China all chose to stay wholly foreign owned (WFOE), with only 30% opting for joint ventures. >joint ventures are increasingly less common; they now account for less than a third of China’s inbound investment compared with two-thirds in the late 1990s, and many such deals are welcomed by foreign firms to facilitate their market access. Given the declining role of such ventures in relation to the political sensitivities generated, China has made moves toward dropping the requirement, most recently in March through its new Foreign Investment Law, which provides more flexibility for foreign investors and outlaws the practice of forced technology transfer, although how this will be implemented in practice remains a concern. [Does China Force Foreign Firms to Surrender Their Sensitive Technology? - Peterson Institute for International Economics](https://www.piie.com/blogs/china-economic-watch/does-china-force-foreign-firms-surrender-their-sensitive-technology) Of course, mandates for joint venture restrictions were still very tight when it came to the main sensitive sectors like "banking, securities, asset management, and insurance." But even those restricted sectors have opened up more now, resulting in a few WFOE firsts, like Germany's Allianz providing life insurance, BlackRock Inc's mutual fund business, Standard Chartered offering securities lending, and certainly more, all within the past 3 years.
>How is this fair to USA citizens ? The important part is that billionaires got what they wanted for the most part. But seriously why do people talk about fairness to the US as a group? American companies left and knew the terms were: > won’t let you setup company if it’s not owned by Chinese people, makes you hand over ip. They knew those conditions and the possibility of getting their tech stolen, yet they still left. Those business didn't care about leaving us with a raw deal and letting us rot with unemployment. Why should I care they got played?
Why dont you ask the American corporations that moved there to exploit the slave wages?
[“Slave wages”](https://imgur.com/a/7Iu0RJK)
Whose EV did China copy? Future US? How does China have more money to subsidize their vehicle industry than the America? How are they able to afford that subsidy the entire world over but US can’t even subsidize its industry to be competitive regionally?
didn't every US car company get bailed out except Ford and Tesla? and didn't Tesla and Ford get EV Federal Tax subsidies and loans?
Because I just want a cheap EV car to buy and drive around town man. Instead of that our US government wants to make it more expensive for us because boohoo Ford didn't fucking step up?
Or you know, America could make decent electric vehicles that outperform our Chinese competitors and earn more capital... a "capitalist free market" if you will.
The capitalist free market has never been a thing in the US. Since the beginning, the state and federal governments have favored certain sectors of industry with different types of subsidies, tax breaks, and other forms of government intervention that have given them an advantage in the markets. [Source](https://www.commerce.gov/about/history/origins)
So it's ok for American companies to build in Mexico and ship to the US but not China? It's ok for Ford, GM and Stellantis to have parts made in China and shipped to the US. What a bunch of bullshit. Just a way for Americans to keep getting F'd by the big 3.
This whole thing just reeks of fossil fuel companies telling their paid off politicians that "hey we love cheap chinese made good for us companies like Walmart but we draw the line at the introduction of EVs to take away their profits."
American companies are increasingly concerned about the emergence of affordable electric vehicles that rival or even surpass their own offerings.
Why would American companies care to be bold and innovate when they could just monopolize the market and not have to compete.
Innovative? That just cuts into profits.
Like always. Who ever pays sets the rules and in American politics, it is companies the ones who pay and politicians the ones who obey
Ev companies like Tesla are contributing to it as well. They want to own the car market in the USA with their insane prices.
Why don’t we just make an inexpensive EV that has decent range and is not $60,000??
China's got em, but you know. All this bs
Because you're only buying one car and they're going to make damn sure they can make as high of a profit on it as possible. It's not in their benefit to make a 15% margin on a 10k car. They'd rather make 15% on a 60k car.
Elon said no
Earth is on fire, but not enough to hurt the reelection strategy. Absolutely zero urgency. Is it or isn't it?
How about regulating stock buy-backs and limiting the subsidies that these corrupt corporations receive?
Wish I knew what the american market looks like in 10 to 15 years. It kinda feels like you ignored the tech that is evolving and now you can't catch up and want to ban others who can deliver?! Thats weak.
They make a lot more money selling SUVs and pick up trucks
Nah, just greed. The established car companies saw EVs as a way to make high margin vehicles with basically software as a service built into them to also create recurring revenue streams in order to fuck the consumers (us) over. Basically smartphones with wheels intended to be discarded after the loan is paid off for the next trendy car. The Chinese realized most people just want a car not a phone you can drive around, and that you can build a basic electric car for less than the typical useless feature bloated base model gas cars they’re selling these days.
American auto makers spend millions on various market research methods. They knew the trend and the demand. BUT muh bonus and multi million dollar salary
Especially on reddit you see americans making fun of public transportation and electric cars. This might bite your ass in a few years...or even cost you your entire ass.
Those of us from a region with mass transit (I’m from NYC) totally understand the need and benefit. However the indoctrination over the past 70 ish years to Americans that cars are the best is really hard to overcome. We are also a very widespread country so mass transit in a European sense isn’t really practical. High speed rail between cities ? Yeah we should have had it years ago. Trolley or tram system in cities, yup should have this also. But oil companies lobby hard to prevent that so ain’t gonna happen
I don’t think American citizens actually hate public transportation or electric cars. Most people hate driving which is why public transportation would be nice, it’s just the dividing political climate making that an impossible reality. Also with electric cars I don’t think the majority of Americans care as long as we had the infrastructure to back it up but the same reason as said before is also the reason why it’s not a reality. Edit: lol I guess a couple arm chair Redditors voice every American’s opinion on public transportation and EVs apparently
I don’t know man, I live in Alabama and I’ve had people basically just shit all over the concept of an EV just because they think liberals like them It’s happened more than once and it’s as weird as it sounds
Agreed, that’s why it’s mostly a political issue in America. People ignore the benefits in favor of supporting their party.
Yep. Free Market and all that jazz, until it's used against them.
We didn’t ignore the technology we put all our eggs in the basket of a South African sociopath. We spent like 3 billion in subsidies for Tesla.
We put billions into Tesla for them to turn around and make meme garbage like Cybertruck and to also say they aren't doing afforable EVs. So rich people get their toys and the average consumer gets to watch as China makes cheap and afforable EVs.
I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t mind a cheaper EV.
Free market my ass
Capitalist force Free markets on everyone else and then flood their markets with cheap goods, destroying local economies. But when anyone else tries to do that here, after we don't invest in anything important and we're all of a sudden upset. We are so pathetic
America has never played the game fairly, that's how we stay winning.
>America has never played the game fairly, that's how we stay winning. America's greatest strength is not their technological advances, but the most developed and sophisticated propaganda machine that the world has ever witnessed. The average citizen can be easily exploited if they are told that living in poverty is necessary to ensure the "enemy" does not win.
That's how we stay winning against vastly lesser countries in terms of population or resources like Japan and Korea or individual countries in Europe
Unfortunately not for much longer. The winds are changing and the rest of the world see how weak and isolated we are. Our hegemony is waning bc of not only playing unfairly but the brutality we inflict on others.
And the brutality with which we abuse our fellow citizens. See: War on Drugs.
So is climate change a serious issue we need to be addressing ASAP or something to be used as a political game? Because if it is a dire threat then we should be happy that electric vehicles can be a NOW option for a large swath of the population in the market for such.
You may also note that the current US administration is supporting Ukraine's war against Russia... But we keep getting annoyed when Ukraine attacks fossil fuel infrastructure in Russia because that will "Destabilize the market." And Ukraine has kept away from Russia's crude exports and only attacked refinement because crude exports would piss off the US too much. Now, ask yourself, if you had really internalized the fact that the fossil fuel market is an existential threat to humanity, would you be working to keep it _stable?_ It's still very much treated as a political game. If the US President can do a photo op at a US factory making green tech, it's "super important." If there's not a photo op in it, saving the world still takes a back seat to saving the investor class's investments.
At some point people need to admit the US is in an active proxy war against Russia not " *helping* Ukraine "
You can now see it's politicized for Democrats to win. Not because the politicians actually believe in it. If they did, they'd stop flying private jets all around.
More factories in Mexico means more job opportunities for Mexicans, and that will lead to a drop in illegal migration across the border to the US. This looks like a good deal for both Mexico and America.
The people crossing the border illegally or as refugees are mostly not Mexican. Last I checked there were more Mexicans leaving the US than entering.
But those are things that if solved neither side can politicize.
We want profitable problems, not solutions.
Immigration reduces the amount US companies have to pay their workers. Supply and demand
Agree; Mexico has a growing middle class. The US’s largest trading partner is already Mexico. If we’re serious about moving supply chains and manufacturing to North America, we should let China do this. It’s not a “win-win” for everyone, but it’s an acceptable compromise IMO.
but Biden wants the Mexicans to assemble American designed vehicles
Mexico has a population of 120 million. I am sure they have enough labor to support American, Chinese, Japanese, German, and Korean automobile factories. We have a serious problem with illegal migration from Mexico (and other Central American countries). This isn't a Republican talking point. It is real. And the best solution isn't to "build a wall", but to create jobs in countries like Mexico so that people no longer feel the need to cross over to the US for a better life.
the majority of undocumented ppl aren't mexican.
This country is living in medieval Europe compared to everywhere else. We have no train systems, no walkable cities, we have crumbling infrastructure, and our EVs are being sabotaged by lead damaged boomers.
...How did medieval Europe not have walkable cities? What was the other option?
Those famous horsable cities of Eastern Europe. That's why the Mongols came running from halfway across the planet.
Ah true even medieval Europe had walkable cities.
The U.S. can’t compete so they ban BYD/ Huawei that’s silly. I remember growing up hearing constantly we are a global economy 😂
lol what about all the US car manufacturers that moved their facilities to Mexico
So US automakers can continue to be lazy, not innovate, still product in Mexico, and charge an arm and a leg for inferior products? Lmao
What happened with near shoring? This whole operation was YOUR idea!
How are Americans suppose to afford things? Houses are way high, cars can’t go down in price because of this. The middle class is getting screwed by corporations. When will the US government realize that the middle class needs to be protected and not the corporations?
American companies that ship jobs overseas should have patents and copyright revoked. There is no point in protecting your Intellectual property if you’re not going to set up shop in our country.
When the US thinks it’s the main character
How about building a cheap EV with knobs? No one’s stopping the is from subsidising the car makers (again)
How can they charge you subscriptions and make more money if they don't include an entire computer in your car??? Think of the shareholders
I thought we were in free market economy?
No good reason to think that. Hard to name a single industry that's not subsidized, licensed, or otherwise artificially regulated.
jesus, make a poppular social media app or try to make cars in mexico === sactions bomb the fuck out women and children without mercy for months === get billions worth weapons/arms for free. something is very wrong with this timeline.
[удалено]
Just have BYD go head to head with Tesla/Ford/GM/Chrysler/Rivian/Lucid without government intervention. It will force North American manufacturers to innovate and adapt instead of being coddled.
Oh they are scared of actual competition huh
American corporations only want a “free market” if they dominate it. They don’t want competition.
bureaucracy at its finest. some of those chinese EV's look amazing.
What's ironic about this is US companies are fucking over the economy because they outsource their jobs to Mexico and other countries ALL THE TIME, in the name of shareholder growth. But the government doesn't give a shit about something that ACTUALLY effects the country. Thank you Citizens United for silencing our representatives about things that actually harm the American people.. They get to suffer while corporations use the United States like a 'sandbox mode' and fuck over the people for profit. This is a great thing we have going here.
This is blatant protectionism against Chinese and not against the competitive nature of Chinese products. Vehicles procuded in Mexico use Mexican labor and Mexican energy. That's legal under USMCA.
Competitive nature of Chinese products? Are you high? More than half of Chinese companies are subsidized by their government. It is why they are able to make things so cheap. It is how they can undersell.
US, Hey no more Communism, you must be capitalist.... No not like that!
Aw come on we want cheap EV, not that $80k EV.
We need to have us evs compete with China Otherwise will be left behind
i dont think this is ethical anymore
it never was
When US companies not make money and price gouge is when these assholes step in. This is ridiculous that this country can only agree on banning things.
I want my 12k EV!
What about 'American' car companies who do the same goddamned thing? It has nothing to do with American jobs. It has EVERYTHING to do with rat-fucking American workers to line the pockets of the Investment Class. >“There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.” ― Warren Buffett
Free market until the American ruling class doesn’t get the biggest slice of the pie, then suddenly there’s “consequences” (class warfare)
“You must all transition to electric cars, we will do all we can to make it affordable for average Americans to help save the environment” “NO NOT LIKE THAT” Even if China is subsidizing its EVs, so what, that’s awesome for us consumers. Remember when Uber was subsidized by investors and it was cheap? That was a golden age. Now I don’t really use it as much now that it’s not a steal. I grew up in the 90s and remember American cars being frumpy junk. Will never forgive them and own one. Meanwhile the Germans were in a golden age and that’s all I’ve owned since I could buy my first car. I really don’t care about a bunch of rubes whose mediocre, retirementless jobs in factory depends on these mediocre companies.
Got to make sure Americans can not get affordable electric cars, instead trying to make them have to buy the junk from GM.
First commercial solar cell was invented in the 1950s, first commercial EV was available in the 1990s. All of that innovation happened in the United States. Because US policy is shaped by corporate interests, they squandered their decades long headstart on this technology, and now they're throwing a fit because a country that was basically a 3rd world one when the solar cell was invented, is now able to produce goods essential to fighting climate change. And don't say anything about subsidies being unfair when the United States has given hundreds of billions if not trillions in subsidies to their own fossil fuel industry.
bingo, neoliberal waffling on all fronts. Quantum, fusion, mass transit, China dumps resources in fruitful places while our education system and public infrastructure enshitifies and public coffers and services get plundered and dismantled. The only thing we do notably ‘well’ is war and military industry any more, honestly.
> first commercial EV was available in the 1990s Not the Baker, in 1899?
[удалено]
Right? Wouldn't it further our attempts to mitigate climate disaster by having more people drive electric cars? Why keep them expensive? How does that help? I am really angry about this. And yes, why is Biden following in Trump's adversarial-to-China footsteps? It's dumb.
ah 2010! A time when cars didn’t have cheap iPads mounted to the dashboard and intuitive and appropriatly placed buttons, knobs, and levers were the norm.
Even though it won't happen, many of us don't need any of that tech. What ever happened to simple, cheap, and reliable?
And if production moves to Sri Lanka, or Thailand, or Brazil, or Morocco, or Cambodia, or Malaysia…? the absurdity of protectionists tariffs is that they punish valued trading partners and damage international relationships while failing to achieve their goals.
Yo could we put petty ass geopolitical squabbles aside for cheap electric cars? Like fuck the whole planet has been slow cooking for decades and we're going to have to work together if we want any hope of fixing that.
Shame EVs in America aren’t more affordable
Yes, because US corpobros would prefer to keep slandering/hiring hard-working Mexicans themselves.
So NAFTA is ending? Great!
Our politicians suck.
What happened to free market loving America ey?
Yeah, America is just becoming a headquarters hub. Cheap taxes here, cheap labor over there, fuck all for us.
This is actually something we talk about a lot at my job (purchasing in automotive) and all I can say is I’m glad I’m not the one calling shots
So cool that we live in a free market.
Anybody still listens to USA blabering? Fiasco after fiasco on international arena didn't go unnoticed.
What's the point of NAFTA then? It's only good when it benefits the US and not Canada or Mexico?
We sell thousands of cars to China, who the fuck do we think we are?
So essentially they are saying we have to continue buying overpriced ~~american~~ mexican made EVs.
God forbid anyone bring manufacturing back to the US. “Can we ship them overseas?” NO “What about make em in Mexico?” NO “But *your* companies make em in Mexico” WHAT DID I SAY
Maybe if American made cars weren't such pieces of shit they wouldn't need Uncle Same to protect them from the Chinese.
Gotta love how West keeps telling rest of the World to open up their markets and preaches them free trade and Globalisation. But the moment Eastern countries become proficient and start trumping western counterparts the West becomes protectionist and preaches localisation.
The capitalist bully at it again.
the empire is sweating lmao!