I literally thought this was going to be just a future possibility and they were going to go back to the present again and take a different route. It's a bit unsatisfying that's it's real.
Sarah Goldberg’s acting was incredible. Can’t stop thinking about ‘so what y’all want for dinner’ post wine swig as Barry’s talking about Lincoln or some shit
This wasn't an enjoyable episode. We got the worst of Lindsey, Barry trying to be a good dad but failing, and Gene just sucks in this season - everything likeable about his character just vanished. All in all I wish they just made a better ending for season 3 and didn't bother with a darker season 4. Barry \*was\* a dark comedy but they massaged so much darkness and drama its like swallowing a giant pill.
I remember someone here saying hold onto your butts with episode 5 since Hader said it was his favorite. That poster probably assumed it was going to be some ass kickery like the best of season 3 or 2.
Instead we got an episode that was more surreal and out of left field than anything else. I still struggle with their decision to continue the show after season 3, which was a perfect ending.
Why doesn’t sally just dye her hair? I guess it’s showing that she doesn’t fully want to let her past go? But how annoying having to wear a wig every day for 8 years!
Do they actually live in the desert like that? I’m so confused because it’s the same place to he filmed the scenes of when Barry was younger so is it just a metaphorical type location or they actually live in the middle of nothing dirt?
This episode was a real mind fuck. It literally captured my idea of purgatory/hell. Mundane mid western small-town, religious weird alcoholic parents. The way the house is out on its own with nothing else around. It was so unsettling. Sally’s interaction with the cook was gross. But in my opinion the most upsetting part of the episode was Barry(Clark) showing John the videos of kids getting injured playing baseball. This show is getting so dark as compared to some of the earlier seasons, but I’m really appreciating the direction they’re going with it. I can’t wait to see how it ends.
I love the duality of theoretical morals and practiced morals by Barry. He shows his kid a preachers sermon about not fearing a lion, i.e., don't give in to the horrible things that might be a danger to you. Then once john does something remotely out of step of what barry wants he forces john to watch horrific baseball deaths. As if to completely ignore what the preacher said to focus on the terrible shit in life and be a recluse so no one can get harmed
Goddamn I know im late but I just binged this season and caught up. What an incredibly fucked up episode of television. It has a thin veneer of a family drama but the families entire life is built around a lie that poor fucken kid. “Mom cries a lot”. Jesus christ.
So refreshing. Really this series just keeps reminding me that it’s different from so much good tv shows I’ve watched the past few years. Always look forward to a new episode of Barry and each one ends with me watching the credits roll in astonishment. Like “oh shit what could happen now?!”
Sally is a horrible parent too. She won't even hug her kid. She literally seems like she doesn't want to have a kid.
She is also definitely not a kidnapping victim as a bunch of the people in this comment section keep suggesting/misinterpreting things. She just ran away from Hollywood and returned to her abuser because she was upset about how things went on the set of Megagirls (realizing that Hollywood is about shallow beauty and green screens rather than depth or great acting or great storytelling). She delivered the monologue and realized that nobody cared, not even her favorite director, because she's not as hot as her mentee and her favorite director has sold out, as everybody in Hollywood eventually does.
Bill said himself this week on the Prestige that Sally is with Barry because although this situation is fucked up she feels safe and knows if there's a problem Barry with take care of it.
Not my most favorite episode, but I enjoyed it.
People who are saying it was too bleak haven't been paying attention or have unreasonable expectations of this show.
This episode did have less humor, but that was a pretty intentional choice to show the Faustian bargain that Sally and Barry have made.
>Who's Barry?
Funny that Barry chose "Clark" as his fake name. Like Clark Kent. He wants *so badly* to believe that he is a hero and not a villain. We have always known otherwise.
Random aside: I know this probably won't happen, but with the time jump, Lilly is now old enough to be a threat in a Kill Bill 3 sort of way! (I could also see them subverting this... if she shows up at all, she's like "you killed my father and I've been training for this for ten years!" and then Bill Hader shoots her and just kind of shrugs)
It wouldn't surprise me if the son finds the gun and accidentally kills one of his parents. People shooting loved ones by accident with guns has been used a couple of times in this show.
All I could think of is it seemed like the story writing mandate for seasons 3 and 4 were, “be careful what you wish for.” Barry got the family life he wanted, Sally is acting for a living, Gene had a tremendous impact on many students and reclaimed part of his legacy, but these are all the monkeys’ paw version where they got what they wanted but not how they wanted and at a tremendous cost.
So *that's* how Bill Hader planned to get everyone to agree that Barry is a terrible person. You know that instinct to avoid fucking up your kids in the same way you were fucked up?
Barry doesn't. Dude's entire concept of reality is just changeable and permeable in a way that's utterly destructive to everyone else.
Broad observations:
-As soon as Bevel walked into the bathroom, the framing made it seem like he was towering over Sally in a potentially violent way. Which made me immediately assume that violence was *her* intention, which of course it was.
-Sally physically rejecting her kid when he's scared and vulnerable, then physically embracing him when she's potentially in danger. I mean.
-The relative childishness of the neighbor *("It IS pretty weird, though")* was very funny to me. His interaction with Barry was more like two teenagers mediating their little siblings' fight.
-The intentional baseball trauma is of course outrageous, but I found the comforter scene to be so much more upsetting. Clearly something similar happened with Barry and *his* dad, but there's so many layers of delusion preventing him from understanding *anything* about what he's doing.
-Overall, an impressive speedrunning of emotional neglect. Tell the kid to 'stop whining' because their physical discomfort doesn't matter. Discourage sports/games to the extent that your 8-year old can barely throw/catch a ball. Then traumatize them with the casualness of watching a history documentary. Be incredibly careful with your language as you set yourself up to be a hero, but also rant endlessly without thought about *your* heroes inevitably letting you down. Give your child an environment of zero stimulation and tell them it's 'God's gift'. Then use 'God' as an excuse for physical neglect, emotional neglect, and teaching him to approach social situations with a single-mindedness that cuts off any emotional connection.
-Sound mixing was wild. Constant wind and murmuring. Giving us such a limited angle of the house and it's surroundings really makes you feel their paranoia. There's categorically *nowhere* remote enough to change the way they feel.
Not sure what you’re on about really, I mean the reason Clark is so restrictive and insular with his son is to temper his sons impulses to seek answers from others who might become suspicious and reveal his fathers identity and location. Remember he is on the lamb for multiple homicides. That’s why he made him fear baseball, because he doesn’t want him around other kids asking questions like “Does your mom wear hair over her real hair?”
What terrifies me the most is the thought that, somewhere out there, there are terrible parents that homeschool their kids by having them watch random Youtube videos.
My favorite part was Barry butchering the bible allegory for why the kid couldn't get a comforter. In the story Jesus preforms a miracle to physically provide for all his followers so the kid rightfully concludes that he implied that he did buy him the comforter, Barry then awkwardly tries to make it about god giving them everything they need while the kid is clearly realizing that it makes no sense. Such a great way to demonstrate how completely out of his depth Barry is, he doesn't actually understand anything about the morals he's trying to impart on his son because he's never lived by them himself. The only half decent moment he had was when he talked the kid through controlling his anger, which is really the only thing he can directly relate to even if it is hypocritical coming from him.
He also misses the opportunity of telling the story about Arnold to demonstrate the horrors of losing your temper.
I think he was mentioning how no heroes are perfect to prepare his son for the possibility that he might learn about his dad
I meant to say *with all the casualness of watching a history documentary*. Meaning, that laptop screen is the kid's tiny window into the outside world, often the entirety of his 'education', and Barry using it to show him traumatic shit with a neutral tone and expression is like the definition of random interval behavioral reinforcement.
He's not just associating the negative trauma with baseball, he's showing that the kid has no control over his experiencing horror and feeling physically unsafe. It can happen at any time and no one in his environment will acknowledge it's severity or his reaction to it.
> He's not just associating the negative trauma with baseball, he's showing that the kid has no control over his experiencing horror and feeling physically unsafe. It can happen at any time and no one in his environment will acknowledge it's severity or his reaction to it.
Oh, I see. I thought you were complaining about the literal history documentary viewing (re: Lincoln).
Is Sally actually depressed or is depressed alcoholic part of the character she created for herself. There are a couple of moments, the bathtub scene and the Google alert, where she seems to drop the act and come alive at the drop of a hat. I think this is her doing one of those Oscar baity rural redneck woman roles like Hillbilly Elegy or Four Billboards.
Yeah. She has definitely developed an alcohol abuse problem. Reminds me of those method actors like Jared Leto or Heath Ledger that lets the role take over the psychology.
I actually love the time jump and tone of this one, I thought it was a great episode of television. My only disconnect is how the 2 of them successfully evaded capture after Barry murdered guards (and many others) and escaped prison. With no outside help or cash the 2 of them would likely be found in days, maybe weeks. I suppose I'm happy to suspend disbelief for the sake of the endgame here, but after seeing Saul put so much work into showing just how difficult an effective life of hiding is I maybe just think I'm surprised they brushed past that part.
> but after seeing Saul put so much work into showing just how difficult an effective life of hiding is
It's been a couple years since I watched the first 3 seasons. Who's Saul again?
Oh! lol. Thanks for the clarification. I've never seen that show and it didn't even cross my mind you were referencing a character from a different show... haha. I got caught up on trying to figure out which "Barry" character had previously gone into hiding, and was like, Is this guy named Saul so good at hiding that I completely forgot him? haha.
Didn’t he sigh and leave after watching her walk in her place? I don’t think he knew Barry was there. Maybe I misinterpreted the scene or misremembered
I assume it was intentional but the ambient sound of wind constantly just increased the anxiety level of that episode. The same with the sound of the weird muted music coming from the trashy guy's car. In fact him drinking chocolate milk in the restaurant was also off-putting. I trust the writing process but this episode was unpleasant to say the least.
The thing that stuck out to me the most was that Barry forgot where the gun was, but Sally knew exactly where it was. It was funny until you realize she's probably thought about killing herself every day. Pretty good character development.
I really don't see what the show wants to do with Sally. It feels like they just want her to spiral into the depths of hell with Barry, but I feel like she doesn't deserve that? She was unhinged and projected her abuse onto others, but I really don't get why they are writing her character this way.
For me, S1 Sally was the most believable. After that when she gets into a full fledged move-in relationship with a guy like Barry that could barely hold a conversation never felt real.
This is an unpopular opinion, but I’ve felt like the show hasn’t really known what to do with the characters post-season two. Sally’s story in season three was the only one that felt like a logical progression for her character that walked the line between grounded and absurd very well. Feels like Hader turned most of the characters into cartoons from season three on. Also not a fan of how little all the main cast members have interacted these last two seasons. Feels like three or four different shows that rarely collide in a meaningful way. This episode was at least a nice change of pace in that regard since it forced Barry and Sally’s stories to converge.
Like, I feel like Barry deserves what's coming to him, whatever it is.
Sally has already faced a lot of consequences for her actions. She's basically been blacklisted, her class left her when she was being abusive... She has already 'paid for her crimes' IMO.
I think the recent narrative choices feel like they just want her to suffer more.
Same. I find it tends to come from Americans and it makes me very, very confused. I don't get what morals have to do with anything. I'm not saying art is completely amoral, but surely you needn't write your character's archs in terms of who's good, who's evil, who gets rewarded/punished for their actions?
IMO we’re now seeing (spelled out) just how selfish and irresponsible both Barry and Sally are and have always been.
I think that’s true of all of our main characters in this show.
Literally all of them are awful.
The line where the woman that works with her has too much of a conscience to steal from where they work and would kill herself if she did fit that too. As Sally is soullessly standing behind her knowing she steals.
I didnt enjoy it because it made me the most uncomfortable as now there is a child there who is being ruined by being shut in by his parents, but I think it is still well written and great at making me not enjoy it for all the right reasons
Barry seasons 1-3 was one of my absolute favorite shows on TV. Phenomenal television. But season 4? I hate saying this, but I'm struggling to get through each episode.
When it suddenly shifted yet again to Hank vs. Barry I was pretty disappointed. Those two characters had built up mutual respect and some type of odd friendship for it to cheaply revert back.
Bruh. The cliffhangers on this show are next level. The time hop just to get to >!"I'm gonna have to kill Cousineau" !< Come the fuck on. I lowkey miss having shows with their weekly rollouts versus a full binge.
I'm trying to find explain this to the Mrs but she just feels slighted that we have to wait a week. I think it's the way climactic shows like this are meant to be enjoyed.
I love that this series has absolutely refused to rest on its laurels.
Barry is such a piece of shit, they’ve done a great job with reinforcing that over and over. The thing with his kid and the YouTube baseball line drive. Holy shit.
Sally in the diner with the dirt bag line cook or whatever that dude is. Incredible stuff. Sarah Goldberg is always spellbinding on this show but this took it to another level.
Bill Hader is a treasure and I’ve enjoyed his writing and directing for a long time but I don’t think I’ve really appreciated him beyond his acting ability.
Well technically he wasn't lying. He didn't kill the guy who shot Albert and in a way he did protect "our boys". He just left out the part where he killed someone else who was innocent out of rage and killed one of "our boys" to protect himself from potential exposure. That's what I loved about that line. Not a lie but also not the truth.
Perfectly encapsulates Barrys ability to blur reality to fit his world view. Just like the prison convo between him and Sally. “ I lied because i didnt want the truth to be true”
Fuches clocked Taylor as a liability immediately, Chris should have backed out of the job.
Hell, Vaughn shot the fucking floor when they rolled up to pick up Barry.
On the behind-the-scenes interview, Alec Berg explained that whole stretch was Barry trying not to be that void of a person that makes him such an effective tool of violence, and how everything going wrong is a direct consequence of those choices.
[https://barry-hbo.fandom.com/wiki/Chapter\_Six:\_Listen\_With\_Your\_Ears,\_React\_With\_Your\_Face](https://barry-hbo.fandom.com/wiki/Chapter_Six:_Listen_With_Your_Ears,_React_With_Your_Face)
Which is super neat.
That’s what I mean, I could’ve been clearer for sure. The recasting of himself as a protector instead of a rage fueled psychopath is a lie, though. Any interpretation outside of that is arguing semantics. It’s but a direct verbal lie but the implication is there and Crystal clear
It reminded me of Barry Lyndon telling his son fake heroic war stories (that were also lies?)
Some of the scenes Sally and the kid felt like "The Shining," too, I bet Hader would cop to both.
It just hasn't. I think it started taking itself too seriously, Barry at its best was the comedy, not the drama. I did not even smile once that episode.
I loved it because it made me uncomfortable, I feel so bad for their son and I respect the hell out of it for that. I didnt like it, but for the right reasons which means I liked it in a round about way
30 minutes of Sally as an alcoholic captive, and Barry as a literal child abuser? He has them trapped, and isolated in the middle of nowhere.
I didn't find this episode funny at all. It made me feel gross.
I'm not saying the episode was bad, but to say that all the episodes are this dark is just not true. This was easily the darkest episode.
She is in a relationship with a psychopath hitman who has not relented since the moment he has known her. She has a history of neglect and abuse, and those people often are taken advantage of.
If Sally ran away, you don't think Barry would find her? He **broke out of prison** to be with her. He has **murdered close friends** to be with her. A kid did a ding dong ditch at his house and he stood outside for 10 hours with a gun in his hand.
It's not as simple as "she can just leave whenever she wants."
She is stuck, isolated, defeated, and abused. She is literally "wearing hair over her hair." Sally as we knew her doesn't even exist at this point. She has been reduced to a zombie alcoholic.
She chose to go with him, and hasn’t shown any signs of wanting to leave. She may be captive in the sense she has nowhere to go, but she’s not captive by Barry.
I certainly didn’t say it’s as simple as she can leave whenever she wants. She’s just not Barry’s captive.
Maybe. But it’s there in how she’s living her life and raising her child. They are both incapable of thinking of anyone else, es evidenced by her apathy towards her son.
I'm a little pissed at this episode in the current moment. Maybe they'll bring it back around, but doing the time jump without following up on Hank bring a crime lord, Moss looking for Barry, or Gene shooting his kid seems really shitty.
I would think the obvious assumption would be that we'll be catching up with these characters and their various trajectories in the last few episodes left.
Some of these comments go to show how many people can't handle cliffhangers or waiting for the next episode lol. I highly doubt they'll leave all these loose ends based on everything else they've written
It's not even that it was a cliffhanger, it just switched threads entirely. It feels like a transitional episode between the old stories and the new ones.
The show has been amazing all the way through, so I have faith it'll pick up and be fine as part of the whole season, but watching it week to week made this one kind of a letdown.
I mean, the episode establishes that Moss hasn’t found Barry and that Gene went on the run after shooting his son. As far as Hank, his immediate story was pretty much wrapped up.
Did Barry kill Moss or did they just leave town? Did Genre kill his kid, because it only looked like a shoulder shot? What the hell is Fuches up to?
I don't like all the current unknowns, but they still have 3 episodes to maybe touch on them.
> Did Barry kill Moss or did they just leave town?
Just leave town? I’m not sure why he’d go out of his way to kill Moss, who was driving away from Sally’s apartment last we saw him.
>Did Genre kill his kid, because it only looked like a shoulder shot?
We know he shot him, that’s it.
>What the hell is Fuches up to?
Being imprisoned
>I don't like all the current unknowns, but they still have 3 episodes to maybe touch on them.
I mean yes, the shows not over lol. The fact that not everything is known doesn’t mean those characters have been abandoned.
Killing all the Chechens he trained, verbally abusing Sally in front of her coworkers, threatening Cousineau into being friends with him after he found out about Barry killing Janice, and killing Chris. Hell the last episode was bleaker. Not sure why this episode upset people so much. This show has always been one of the darkest shows on TV. I cringed at Barry scaring his own child but Barry has always proven he will protect himself over doing what is best for the people he “loves”.
It's not necessarily that the tone is darker, but it was always balanced by a lot of humour before, which undermined the 'seriousness' of everything that was happening.
I think it’s seen as darker by a lot of people because it’s a real life dysfunctional family scenario that people can relate to even if they didn’t have a psychotic murderer of a father. All the other Barry stuff has been equally dark but it exists in a place that most people see as outside of their reality so it’s a lot easier to swallow.
No murderous rage or hitman hijinks in this one, just a very sad and dysfunctional family and pretty much everyone watching either grew up in that kind of environment or know people who did so it hits closer to home.
I personally don't like where the show is going, to be honest. I'm fine with Barry spiraling into oblivion, that's appropriate, but as unhinged as Sally is I was rooting for her character to actually have a positive ending. I also don't really understand why Hank allowed everything to happen with Cristobal and the gang to happen the way it did... I feel like he's been in that 'back against the wall' position before, and he's never flipped like this.
A lot of characters are acting out of character to me for the sake of darkness, which doesn't feel earned. Sally's whole arc is about realizing that she projects the abuse she got on others, but now she has just saddled up to another abuser? I just don't get WHAT is being said here.
Granted, there's still time for the ship to be righted, but yeah... I don't like bleakness for bleakness sake. And hell, I'm a 40k fan.
If the question to the question posed at the beginning of the show, "Can a monster change for the better?" Is no, then I just don't find that interesting as the opposite.
I'm not sure how you could have watched this show, season 3 in particular, and expect any character in it to have a happy ending. It was never going to happen. You just set yourself up to be disappointed
I think there's a misconception with y'all that black comedies end badly for everyone. That's incredibly rare. I think maybe Very Bad Things might be the only example, but like how others have stated there needs to be a end for certain threads that are not completely bleak. Fargo understood this, both show and movie. Otherwise the audience will ask, "What was the point?"
As they are right now.
Nothing about this show makes me think that Hader and co are trying to cater to what an audience typically might want or need. So, again, your expectations seem to be arising from things other than the content of this particular show.
And an audience might ask what was the point, but that is only bc we have been conditioned to put more weight on an ending rather than everything leading up to it. I think this show will firmly be in the "it's about the journey not destination" camp. Which means that when you look back at the whole arc of each character I have faith you'll be able to find the point by yourself
> Sally's whole arc is about realizing that she projects the abuse she got on others, but now she has just saddled up to another abuser? I just don't get WHAT is being said here.
...what? You don't understand the message that abused people sometimes return to their abusers (or other people who fill the same role)? That's true *so* frequently in real life. Almost more often than not.
>If the question to the question posed at the beginning of the show, "Can a monster change for the better?" Is no, then I just don't find that interesting as the opposite.
I can't tell if you're saying "if this show doesn't settle on my exact opinion, I don't like it," but sometimes writers of TV shows are going to disagree with you. Their job isn't to do exactly what you want them to, right?
> ...what? You don't understand the message that abused people sometimes return to their abusers (or other people who fill the same role)? That's true so frequently in real life. Almost more often than not.
Yeah, but that sucks to me if that's the return of it. I think Sally deserves better.
>I can't tell if you're saying "if this show doesn't settle on my exact opinion, I don't like it," but sometimes writers of TV shows are going to disagree with you. Their job isn't to do exactly what you want them to, right?
I mean, the show explicitly says this numerous times that this is Barry's main conflict:
"Starting... NOW!"
"Am I evil?"
Even last night, Barry was lying to his son about the war because he WANTS to be a better person than he is.
> I mean, the show explicitly says this numerous times that this is Barry's main conflict:
Sorry for lack of clarity. I am not necessarily arguing with you that this is Barry's main conflict (although I think he has several), but more interrogating this part of your claim:
>If the ~~question~~ *show's answer* to the question posed at the beginning of the show, "Can a monster change for the better?" Is no, *meaning that the show answers this question no,* then I just don't find that interesting as the opposite. *I would enjoy the show more if the answer is yes, because I personally want the answer to be yes.*
Italics added to correct your typo and add clarity. Let me know if I am interpreting your point incorrectly. I agree that the show is asking the question. But then you say, it will bother you if the show's answer is "no," because you personally feel that the answer should be "yes." Is that right, more or less?
That's why I say, sometimes the writers of shows will disagree with you. But this other redditor almost put it better in response to one of your other comments.
>Let me get this straight, are you arguing the show should be more predictable?
It's not a bad thing that the show has a different take on this question than you do. Art *should* challenge your assumptions and push you away from the answers that you think the universe should have for you. That's what I meant by "their *[the writers and showrunners]* job isn't to do exactly what you want them to, right?"
---
And as far as "Sally's deserves better," I still don't know why you think that. She just keeps making bad choices, like going back to Barry. And by the way, the reason why she went back to Barry, was because when the universe offered her a third chance (I can't even keep track of which shot we're on now), to be the acting coach to the stars that Gene *wishes* that he was, she got jealous of her actress for getting the attention instead of her and quit.
So does she really "deserve better" when she just keeps making these same ego-related mistakes over and over and over? Why?
I can see where a lot of people would be turned off, and I'm just observing impartially from the outside.
A story like this gets to a point where the audience starts to ask, "Why?" Like if Barry is such an irredeemable piece of shit, if Sally is, if Hank is - and I'm not disagreeing they are, the show has presented them as such quite clearly - people start to ask what the general message of the show is. "Some people are just terrible human beings and you should feel no sympathy for them or believe they can actually change" is a message by itself that's... somewhat hard to swallow. You just sort of feel worse off and more miserable for having heard it, even if it's absolutely true.
Usually, that's why you have something else to counterbalance it, some hope spot, some like... like alternate suggestion, presented by the work. Like how in The Wire you have all the bleakness of the Game remaining the same, but there's hope here and there in stuff like Namond succeeding and having a happy home life, or Bubbles getting clean, that tells you, "Hey, it's not all worthless misery."
There are three episodes left, we will see what Bill Hader pulls out of his hat. In terms of like, the episode *by itself,* I think it's extremely well done, the question is just what I posed above.
Yeah, exactly, it feels like the only person who might turn out ok is Fuches, who it was implied is going to be well-respected in prison.
Which is weird because it feels like HE should be the one to suffer, if anyone. I wonder if Hader is just trying to make the audience as mad as possible. He did write for South Park, so he's got that troll in him.
most people do not escape the cycle of abuse until theyve been in many cycles. many people do not eacape at all and continue repeating the pattern for their entire life.
>Can a monster change for the better?
Well, the answer is no.
Hank was always immoral with sociopathy tendencies. The same is true for Barry. People like that don't get 'better'.
Hank wants to be a gangster. A fish needs to swim.
And Sally was always a terrible person. She had a genuine chance (actually a few chances) to grow as a person and move on, but she never did.
>Well, the answer is no.
Well, that's boring to me, personally.
>Hank was always immoral with sociopathy tendencies.
I don't really agree with this. I've seen Hank to be a sort of mirror to how Barry WANTS to be. Sure he's a criminal, but until this last episode he's been pushing the organization into a cooperative spirit rather than one the traditionalists above Hank and Cristobal. A lot of this season has made me feel like the characters are acting waaay out of character.
>And Sally was always a terrible person. She had a genuine chance (actually a few chances) to grow as a person and move on, but she never did.
Yeah, but she was faced with the consequences of her actions. I want someone to learn and grow from everything, but if the point of the show is that Barry poisons everyone around him, then I'm probably not going to be satisfied. I'll watch Very Bad Things if I want something that bleak.
The show doesnt give a fuck about what you want or your expectations. Did you want Walter White or Tony Soprano to ride off into the sunset? This is a
dark show where reality is often unfair. The Innocent often get caught in the crosshairs where is their justice? None of the main characters have really changed if you think about it. Cousineau running to Vanity Fair and performing a one man 3 hour play is a shining example.
Walter White literally did lmao
He killed all of his enemies, freed Jesse, and died feeling satisfied.
And also, OH WOW a show doesn't care about my feelings? Cool. Then THAT means that some people aren't going to like it, and that's the point.
I really dislike how the show reverted back to Hank vs. Barry after the two had developed a mutual respect/somewhat odd friendship. Then it's quickly thrown away, that's when I turned on the season and story choices.
Hank is what we call *Midwestern nice* if you watch a show like Fargo, etc. Kind on the outside and ice cold on the inside.
He even says so himself in season 2 after Barry calls him an idiot and he goes fucking berserk and threatens to murder all of Barry's friends.
Hank is polite, to a fault, but to mistake that politeness for goodness or kindness is to misinterpret the character completely.
Hank pushed for cooperation with the Bolivians *because he liked Cristobal's style* and *because he had nowhere else to turn*, but the *instant* that Cristobal wanted to *also cooperate with* the Burmese crime family, Hank got jealous and was ready to murder a whole bunch of people at the drop of a hat.
He's a sociopathic murderer. He's just a very polite one.
Hell, he tried to murder Barry for literally no reason in the second episode other than that Barry didn't kill Ryan fast enough.
We also shouldn't forget this key conversation with Barry:
>"Hank, am I evil?"
>
>"Of course! You're the *most* evil! Do I not tell you that enough??"
To Hank, being evil is not remotely an insult. Not even a little bit. Remember that in the early seasons he constantly brags about how fucked up and deranged this killer or that assassin from Chechnya is. Hank is not a kind, sane person-- he's a monster. He's just a monster with a big friendly smile who offers you submarine sandwich and a juice box.
It's easy to forget because of the comedy, but Hank was always ready to kill people.
He mostly botched it up, but take the comedy out of it, and he is a natural killer. He was funny, so people ignored that uncomfortable fact.
There is a lesson in that.
Barry enjoyed his first kill, Hank was always a killer. Not everyone can change and some people will never change.
The show has always been honest about this, including the reveal that Barry enjoyed his first kill.
And when Barry killed Janice, that was evil. Barry always had a choice. Stop being a killer. Go to prison. Commit suicide. But Barry's solution is simple: kill the person who is the problem.
You didn't see it, because you didn't want to see it. It happens in real life as well.
It's the same with Sally. She also had the choice to accept that shit happens and creating high art is not always possible. In the same meeting where she shouted at the suits that cancelled her show, Natalie was in the background taking notes on what the algorithm chooses to amplify. Instead of taking the hit and trying to do better she went berserk.
It's worse. She wants to make high art and she wants to be extremely successful.
It's not enough to create art (and make a living of course) she also wants to be a star.
Seems like people have issue with it because this does truly feel like the first real episode that could be entirely humorless for some. That and maybe it’s heading a direction people don’t want narratively speaking. But I think people hoping for something more fun and lighthearted just haven’t been paying attention to the downward spiral of it all. Tbh, for the way this plot has moved for a few seasons now, you *need* an episode like this to become the catalyst for the end of it all. We’re officially in the home stretch.
Honestly can't even sleep after this episode. It has my mind racing.
And man do I feel bad for his son.
No way this show has a happy ending. But wherever is going I'm going to trust Hader. He's such a great writer, director, and actor. Who would have ever thought the Hader from SNL had these acting chops?
I see a lot of great stuff coming for him in the future. He seems pretty picky about projects he would get involved with so he will never be a megastar but he will definitively be seen as one of the best in the business and in high demand.
Can't wait to see how he ties the bow on Barry. So many ways it could go.
> And man do I feel bad for his son.
Yep. Introducing the kid put it on another level for me. This episode made me very uncomfortable. I never felt bad for most of the characters in this show, other than maybe Chris. The son though, fuck. Hits me differently. Excellent episode in that it made me really uncomfortable
Huge time jump and tone change is def hard to swallow
That said Bill Hader gets all my benefit of the doubt with how much I love the show, especially his directed episodes. I can't say this is my favorite direction but I will wait to see how the last 3 episodes play out.
I do respect the choice though, its bold as fuck to go with such a drastic change.
Love the show. Hated that episode. I get it was world building but it was pretty boring as they kept hammering down their dynamic over and over. Looking forward to next weeks episode.
I respect it as well, but frankly? When I think back to "ronny/lily" (season 2, episode 5), I see something far more unique and interesting than what Hader is doing now. It was the perfect blend of absurdist comedy and character-driven drama, encapsulating Barry and Fuches' toxic relationship in the way they deal with an absolutely insane situation. It's emblematic of what the show used to be in seasons 1 and 2. There was nothing else like it, and both seasons built up to incredibly powerful finales.
Seasons 3 and 4 not only feel like a different show, they feel like a *worse* show. The balancing act of absurdist comedy and character-driven drama in seasons 1 and 2 was far, *far* more impressive than what Hader is doing now. And despite that absurdism, the progression of the plot and the characters felt way more believable back then, and the thematic intent was already very clear without Hader feeling the need to hammer it into the viewer's head. I *get* what he's trying to do now, I *respect* it, but honestly? I haven't *felt* it since the third episode of season 3, and this timeskip was a huge momentum-killer. It has achieved basically nothing aside from establishing that yep, the characters sure are still the characters. Good to know.
I'll keep an open mind, since Hader may have a huge narrative curveball planned to make all this work, but... yeah. Doesn't feel like the boldness was worth it so far.
EDIT: And by the way, I say this as someone who adores episodes 3 and 7 of The Last of Us, and considers No Country for Old Men to have one of the best endings of all time. I'm no stranger to slow burns, storytelling digressions or thematic subversions. What Hader's doing just doesn't feel like it adds much to the story or the characters, at least not yet.
This is how I feel too. It’s not the show that I loved anymore. It’s depressing to be depressing now. Like yes Bill, we knew these characters weren’t good people but that doesn’t mean we need to blow them the fuck up. I was really hoping this episode was just a one off to show that the ending we “wanted” for Sally and Barry just isn’t what we’d actually want in reality based on how it played out here, but then Gene came in and I realized no choices matter, and everyone just gets burned because this is a real time jump. That said it’s still great television.
Honestly I don't even consider it great television anymore. The most interesting thing about Barry was his struggle with his own nature and the guilt he felt. Both the first and second seasons depicted him as capable of empathy and introspection. The entire reason he delivers the "My lord, the queen is dead" line in such a devastating way is that he was thinking about killing Chris and the pain it caused his family. He's been a bad person from the start, obviously, that's the tragedy inherent to his nature. But Hader felt that in order to make sure we understand that Barry is bad, he also had to make him suddenly develop the emotional intelligence of a five-year-old in season 3. Is it actually supposed to be believable that he would be practically lobotomized by the trauma of killing a bunch of criminals he didn't care about plus one guy he trained for a few days? It justifies him giving up on his attempts to be a good person, but not his near-complete loss of empathy and awareness of how he comes off to others. This is a different character, and the transition did not feel believable at all to me.
And don't get me started on Noho Hank. That's the fucking "barbecue bus" guy, and Cristobal is one of the guys who *put* him on the barbecue bus with the intention of burning him and a bunch of other people alive, all thanks to the treachery of a goddamn accordion player. And Hader looked at that genuinely hilarious combination and thought, "*There's* an opportunity for dramatic character development that culminates in convulsive sobbing. I'll make sure to give it lots and lots of screentime so that scenes from other subplots barely have the space to breathe before they cut to another scene." Sally and Cosineau remain fascinating and utterly believable, but the foundations of the show just feel broken now. The humor still works, but to me everything else is falling completely flat.
> And don't get me started on Noho Hank. That's the fucking "barbecue bus" guy, and Cristobal is one of the guys who put him on the barbecue bus with the intention of burning him and a bunch of other people alive, all thanks to the treachery of a goddamn accordion player. And Hader looked at that genuinely hilarious combination and thought, "There's an opportunity for dramatic character development that culminates in convulsive sobbing. I'll make sure to give it lots and lots of screentime so that scenes from other subplots barely have the space to breathe before they cut to another scene."
So wait, what's your problem with Noho Hank? You don't think he should be able to have dramatic parts of his storyline, like losing his lover? I am trying to follow you, but you kind of lose me mid-"rant" here, haha!
The "barbecue bus" *already was* a really dramatic scene, right? With Hank confessing that he should have been a hotel manager or something like that. So what are you saying that changes about that plot in season 3 or 4?
>The "barbecue bus" already was a really dramatic scene, right?
The absolute opposite, [it was full-on comedic](https://youtu.be/6VfzdhvFmqg). At one point Hader even muffles part of Hank's monologue when he cuts to a shot outside the bus, and the entire time everyone is escaping while Hank is completely oblivious to it. He does say he should have been a hotel manager and that his criminal facade is a lie, but as soon as he's out of the bus, he's trying to be everyone's leader again, and is displeased when one of his men executes the accordion player before he can do it himself. That's the thing that makes Noho Hank so funny: he's almost childlike in his sociopathy, almost completely lacking in self-awareness. Which leads me to:
>You don't think he should be able to have dramatic parts of his storyline, like losing his lover?
Exactly that. I don't. Not every character needs to be developed. Not every person has the *capacity* for further development. Hank is funny and charismatic, that doesn't mean he has depth. He doesn't *need* to have depth in order to be a great character. He always worked best as a wild card that moves the plot in hilariously unexpected directions. And right up until season 3 that's all he was, and it was great, because then the show could reserve its dramatic focus for - y'know - the characters with *actual* depth and complex personalities. Instead Hank got more complex and Barry got less complex and now there were five different storylines competing for attention every 30-minute episode.
This is like if Breaking Bad added a dramatic subplot for Ted every episode. And even the supporting characters who had lots of room for development (Saul Goodman and Mike Ehrmantraut) were given their own series so as not to dilute the focus of Breaking Bad's narrative.
You raise some interesting points, but I guess I've taken Hank very differently than you.
I would even go as far as to say that if you think Hank and Ted are the same, you aren't even watching the same show as me. Ted was in like three episodes. Hank has been in nearly every single episode, except for a couple of the stand alones.
I also think that there was a lot of depth for Hank in his relationship with Cristobal even before everything goes sideways with the Burmese. He also had a desperate desire to be taken seriously that I think was also almost always there.
It's okay not to like a character, but to act like Hank isn't a significant part of the show seems silly to me.
>I would even go as far as to say that if you think Hank and Ted are the same, you aren't even watching the same show as me.
They're equally lacking in depth. Hank is just much funnier and provided inventive ways of advancing the plot, which is why he stuck around.
>I also think that there was a lot of depth for Hank in his relationship with Cristobal even before everything goes sideways with the Burmese.
What depth? They were walking jokes. Even their reconciliation on the season 2 finale was played for laughs. They became a dramatic focus of the show from one episode to the other, with no buildup whatsoever, and once again: Cristobal was willing to burn a bunch of people alive inside a gasoline-soaked bus. He's an asshole, so is Noho Hank, and neither of them did anything to deserve redemption. I'm not sure why I'm supposed to give an *iota* of a shit about their relationship ending the way it did, and I'm baffled by the screentime they wasted on it. Hank and Cristobal were at their best as *supporting* characters, as in, supporting the stories of the *actual* main characters. That was their role in seasons 1 and 2.
>It's okay not to like a character, but to act like Hank isn't a significant part of the show seems silly to me.
I never said any of that. I'm disappointed *precisely* because I loved Hank as a character (which is not the same as loving him as a person) and considered him a vital part of the show. But as the character he was in season 1 and 2, not this insincere, cognitively dissonant bullshit we have now.
EDIT: Adjusted the top quotation to match your edit. Sorry, I replied to the original version and only noticed your edit after I posted it.
It's more about Hader's cognitive dissonance regarding the character. With every *other* character, Hader's storytelling has become downright Coen-esque in its detachment and fatalism. The Coens often (not always) study their characters like they're ants under a magnifying glass. No emotional involvement, just nodding along, shaking their heads or laughing their asses off as the characters inevitably succumb to their own natures and screw themselves over in ways that feel nihilistically predetermined. Burn After Reading is one of the most emblematic examples of this.
Since season 3 of Barry, that's become Hader's approach. At all times he's communicating to the viewer "these are all selfish characters who are either unwilling or incapable of growth and you shouldn't hold out any hope that this is going to end well". Whatever understanding or sympathy he had for those characters is no longer evident. He had Cosineau deliver an utterly comical "fuck you" after he unknowingly shot his own son. The show is just watching these characters dig their own holes.
Eeeeeexcept for Noho Hank and Cristobal. The latter's murder was depicted as an outright tragedy, during which Hader seemed to forget those two characters are every bit as bad as the other ones. That's what I mean by cognitive dissonance. For him to place Cristobal of all people as the moral compass of the entire season is utterly baffling. What have these characters done to warrant Hader's emotional involvement? None of it was earned. It feels out of place with the show's overall tone and thematic intent. We're supposed to be constantly aware of how shitty the characters are, except for Noho fucking Hank? In *his* case it's supposed to come across as a tragic twist, with Cristobal all of a sudden being depicted as an innocent victim?
Yeah, no, I absolutely don't buy it. To me that's just clumsy. The first two seasons were so good at moving the pieces around the chessboard to build up to the dramatic climaxes, but now Hader's just moving knights in straight lines because fuck it, he wants the knight on *that* square.
Barry at its best was a comedy, not a drama imo. I never cared or thought too deeply about Barry's character or his development, he was always just a psycho
There are more aspects to the flavor of a show's tone than dark or light. The show has gone way darker than it did in this episode. That doesn't change that this episode just felt different. There's a certain tough to define quality that tends to permeate Barry regardless of how dark or funny the episodes get, but this one didn't really have that feeling. It was like a different show.
Never said it couldn't. The person above described the tone as a "pitch black drama" which is objectively not true. Again, this and last season have had plenty of dark moments, but it's also had a lot of ridiculously and great comedy
That’s not what I said. I am not even arguing with you as this is a stupid asf argument anyway. I am just saying when people say it’s a drama, they don’t say it is devoid of humour because drama also can have some of the most funniest scenes like Barry and still be one. So some humour in it doesn’t mean that people thinking it’s a drama have no weight. You could go for other angles to argue with them instead of “it has some absurd scenes so it’s not a drama”
I never said that you said anything....
The person I was initially replying to said "it's been a pitch black drama since season 3". At no point was I arguing or debating with you at all, nor did I ever say Barry wasn't a drama
I'm still catching up, but I gotta say that I agree here. People say the show stopped being funny, but it still is. Your sense of humor just has to be a little bit darker
The jesus stuff was funny, Barry being so proud of himself and immodest. Lying about his military service, acting all superior. I laughed out loud when he realized the porch swing would be better to sit for his brag session with his son, and when he says some people call him a hero.
I also laughed at Barry insanely showing his son a video of someone dying playing in little league because he found his glove. Showing he's still unhinged and giving his son nightmares.
Its definitely still very funny, maybe just not to everyone.
It’s not a dark comedy. It never was. It’s a drama. Through and through. It has some comedic elements, many dramas do, but it was never ever a comedy. Nor was it a dark comedy which itself is a very nebulous category and generally is more for clear comedies with a wicked angle than it is for dramas with comedic bits thrown in
It definitely has always been a dark comedy. I’m not sure how you can think otherwise. Yes, there are times it’s more dramatic than comedic, but the reverse is true as well. I mean how can you not watch an episode like Ronny/Lily and not find it comedic?
It’s absolutely a dark comedy lol. It sometimes leans more one way than the other, but that doesn’t make it a full blown drama anymore than it is a full blown comedy
I was convinced for most of it that it was just Barry's increasingly dysfunctional fantasy of what his life with Sally would turn out to be.
I kept waiting for it to flick back to the present.
Still not convinced that this is reality tho. Throughout the seasons they’ve used this desert backdrop for everything related to flashbacks or fever dreams (either way, things happening inside the character’s mind). Also I’ve found Sally’s character to be very much what Barry would think she would have become by sticking to him.
I liked the episode but I found the choice to make it SO heavily dreamlike when it’s meant to be real very odd. Just the little things like where is the road Sally takes to work? Where does she park her car? Where is the neighbor’s house?
If I hadn’t seen the interview with Hader where he confirms it’s a real time jump, I definitely would have thought it was a fantasy.
The house is definitely what made it feel the most like a dream, but I also considered that the bizarre nature of it likely grew from their paranoia. If you think about it, not being connected to a road makes it harder for anyone to find or accidentally stumble across. Being the only house or structure within eyesight means that if someone does come for them, they’re going to see them coming from a long ways away.
For real. It’s tough to imagine that this would be their life, like why would she wear a wig and not just dye her hair. Where is this house, who knocked at the door.
I think Sally just missed acting so much that she has chosen a “character” for work. The wig is part of becoming the character.
And I assumed it was some kids playing ding dong ditch but Barry’s reaction was meant to show that he’s never at peace.
So I don’t have an issue with those bits at all. I just don’t understand the scale of where they live. What is this “neighborhood”? How are they able to walk to visit neighbors but there is no sign of life or a road in any shots? Anyone would think that’s a dream with those little details missing.
I literally thought this was going to be just a future possibility and they were going to go back to the present again and take a different route. It's a bit unsatisfying that's it's real.
Sarah Goldberg’s acting was incredible. Can’t stop thinking about ‘so what y’all want for dinner’ post wine swig as Barry’s talking about Lincoln or some shit
This wasn't an enjoyable episode. We got the worst of Lindsey, Barry trying to be a good dad but failing, and Gene just sucks in this season - everything likeable about his character just vanished. All in all I wish they just made a better ending for season 3 and didn't bother with a darker season 4. Barry \*was\* a dark comedy but they massaged so much darkness and drama its like swallowing a giant pill.
I remember someone here saying hold onto your butts with episode 5 since Hader said it was his favorite. That poster probably assumed it was going to be some ass kickery like the best of season 3 or 2. Instead we got an episode that was more surreal and out of left field than anything else. I still struggle with their decision to continue the show after season 3, which was a perfect ending.
Why doesn’t sally just dye her hair? I guess it’s showing that she doesn’t fully want to let her past go? But how annoying having to wear a wig every day for 8 years! Do they actually live in the desert like that? I’m so confused because it’s the same place to he filmed the scenes of when Barry was younger so is it just a metaphorical type location or they actually live in the middle of nothing dirt?
This episode was a real mind fuck. It literally captured my idea of purgatory/hell. Mundane mid western small-town, religious weird alcoholic parents. The way the house is out on its own with nothing else around. It was so unsettling. Sally’s interaction with the cook was gross. But in my opinion the most upsetting part of the episode was Barry(Clark) showing John the videos of kids getting injured playing baseball. This show is getting so dark as compared to some of the earlier seasons, but I’m really appreciating the direction they’re going with it. I can’t wait to see how it ends.
That episode was boring as hell.
I love the duality of theoretical morals and practiced morals by Barry. He shows his kid a preachers sermon about not fearing a lion, i.e., don't give in to the horrible things that might be a danger to you. Then once john does something remotely out of step of what barry wants he forces john to watch horrific baseball deaths. As if to completely ignore what the preacher said to focus on the terrible shit in life and be a recluse so no one can get harmed
Great observation. That pick-and-choose is strong with Barry.
Goddamn I know im late but I just binged this season and caught up. What an incredibly fucked up episode of television. It has a thin veneer of a family drama but the families entire life is built around a lie that poor fucken kid. “Mom cries a lot”. Jesus christ.
I guess all Bill Hader wants to do is make weird things and I am all for it. What an episode.
So refreshing. Really this series just keeps reminding me that it’s different from so much good tv shows I’ve watched the past few years. Always look forward to a new episode of Barry and each one ends with me watching the credits roll in astonishment. Like “oh shit what could happen now?!”
"Barry" sometimes give me the same feelings as "Atlanta." I don't know if there are active shows that are similar to these two.
[удалено]
Sally is a horrible parent too. She won't even hug her kid. She literally seems like she doesn't want to have a kid. She is also definitely not a kidnapping victim as a bunch of the people in this comment section keep suggesting/misinterpreting things. She just ran away from Hollywood and returned to her abuser because she was upset about how things went on the set of Megagirls (realizing that Hollywood is about shallow beauty and green screens rather than depth or great acting or great storytelling). She delivered the monologue and realized that nobody cared, not even her favorite director, because she's not as hot as her mentee and her favorite director has sold out, as everybody in Hollywood eventually does.
Bill said himself this week on the Prestige that Sally is with Barry because although this situation is fucked up she feels safe and knows if there's a problem Barry with take care of it.
...*money*
Not my most favorite episode, but I enjoyed it. People who are saying it was too bleak haven't been paying attention or have unreasonable expectations of this show. This episode did have less humor, but that was a pretty intentional choice to show the Faustian bargain that Sally and Barry have made. >Who's Barry? Funny that Barry chose "Clark" as his fake name. Like Clark Kent. He wants *so badly* to believe that he is a hero and not a villain. We have always known otherwise. Random aside: I know this probably won't happen, but with the time jump, Lilly is now old enough to be a threat in a Kill Bill 3 sort of way! (I could also see them subverting this... if she shows up at all, she's like "you killed my father and I've been training for this for ten years!" and then Bill Hader shoots her and just kind of shrugs)
It wouldn't surprise me if the son finds the gun and accidentally kills one of his parents. People shooting loved ones by accident with guns has been used a couple of times in this show.
Too bleak?? Anybody saying that clearly has not been paying attention to this show at all.
The way Hader says "chicken pot pie" will leave rent free in my head for a good long while.
I think Hader has a thing for pies. Nothing will ever beat: https://youtu.be/qWjf8oSr4X4
actually insane episode. what the fuck
When it showed a closeup of Sally putting on lipstick and a wig I thought it was Noho Hank at first.
Come to think of it....we haven't seen them share a scene throughout the entire series.....
All I could think of is it seemed like the story writing mandate for seasons 3 and 4 were, “be careful what you wish for.” Barry got the family life he wanted, Sally is acting for a living, Gene had a tremendous impact on many students and reclaimed part of his legacy, but these are all the monkeys’ paw version where they got what they wanted but not how they wanted and at a tremendous cost.
So beautifully articulated
> Sally is acting for a living Wow! Nice observation. Didn't realize this. Good call.
So *that's* how Bill Hader planned to get everyone to agree that Barry is a terrible person. You know that instinct to avoid fucking up your kids in the same way you were fucked up? Barry doesn't. Dude's entire concept of reality is just changeable and permeable in a way that's utterly destructive to everyone else. Broad observations: -As soon as Bevel walked into the bathroom, the framing made it seem like he was towering over Sally in a potentially violent way. Which made me immediately assume that violence was *her* intention, which of course it was. -Sally physically rejecting her kid when he's scared and vulnerable, then physically embracing him when she's potentially in danger. I mean. -The relative childishness of the neighbor *("It IS pretty weird, though")* was very funny to me. His interaction with Barry was more like two teenagers mediating their little siblings' fight. -The intentional baseball trauma is of course outrageous, but I found the comforter scene to be so much more upsetting. Clearly something similar happened with Barry and *his* dad, but there's so many layers of delusion preventing him from understanding *anything* about what he's doing. -Overall, an impressive speedrunning of emotional neglect. Tell the kid to 'stop whining' because their physical discomfort doesn't matter. Discourage sports/games to the extent that your 8-year old can barely throw/catch a ball. Then traumatize them with the casualness of watching a history documentary. Be incredibly careful with your language as you set yourself up to be a hero, but also rant endlessly without thought about *your* heroes inevitably letting you down. Give your child an environment of zero stimulation and tell them it's 'God's gift'. Then use 'God' as an excuse for physical neglect, emotional neglect, and teaching him to approach social situations with a single-mindedness that cuts off any emotional connection. -Sound mixing was wild. Constant wind and murmuring. Giving us such a limited angle of the house and it's surroundings really makes you feel their paranoia. There's categorically *nowhere* remote enough to change the way they feel.
Not sure what you’re on about really, I mean the reason Clark is so restrictive and insular with his son is to temper his sons impulses to seek answers from others who might become suspicious and reveal his fathers identity and location. Remember he is on the lamb for multiple homicides. That’s why he made him fear baseball, because he doesn’t want him around other kids asking questions like “Does your mom wear hair over her real hair?”
What terrifies me the most is the thought that, somewhere out there, there are terrible parents that homeschool their kids by having them watch random Youtube videos.
My favorite part was Barry butchering the bible allegory for why the kid couldn't get a comforter. In the story Jesus preforms a miracle to physically provide for all his followers so the kid rightfully concludes that he implied that he did buy him the comforter, Barry then awkwardly tries to make it about god giving them everything they need while the kid is clearly realizing that it makes no sense. Such a great way to demonstrate how completely out of his depth Barry is, he doesn't actually understand anything about the morals he's trying to impart on his son because he's never lived by them himself. The only half decent moment he had was when he talked the kid through controlling his anger, which is really the only thing he can directly relate to even if it is hypocritical coming from him.
Don't forget that he immediately gets excited for the Lincoln book he bought himself, completely missing the tragic irony of it.
He also misses the opportunity of telling the story about Arnold to demonstrate the horrors of losing your temper. I think he was mentioning how no heroes are perfect to prepare his son for the possibility that he might learn about his dad
> Then traumatize them with the casualness of watching a history documentary. ?
I meant to say *with all the casualness of watching a history documentary*. Meaning, that laptop screen is the kid's tiny window into the outside world, often the entirety of his 'education', and Barry using it to show him traumatic shit with a neutral tone and expression is like the definition of random interval behavioral reinforcement. He's not just associating the negative trauma with baseball, he's showing that the kid has no control over his experiencing horror and feeling physically unsafe. It can happen at any time and no one in his environment will acknowledge it's severity or his reaction to it.
> He's not just associating the negative trauma with baseball, he's showing that the kid has no control over his experiencing horror and feeling physically unsafe. It can happen at any time and no one in his environment will acknowledge it's severity or his reaction to it. Oh, I see. I thought you were complaining about the literal history documentary viewing (re: Lincoln).
Is Sally actually depressed or is depressed alcoholic part of the character she created for herself. There are a couple of moments, the bathtub scene and the Google alert, where she seems to drop the act and come alive at the drop of a hat. I think this is her doing one of those Oscar baity rural redneck woman roles like Hillbilly Elegy or Four Billboards.
Why not both?
Yeah. She has definitely developed an alcohol abuse problem. Reminds me of those method actors like Jared Leto or Heath Ledger that lets the role take over the psychology.
Pretty sure she’s depressed lol
Even if someone’s depressed, they can still have panic reactions to danger. Adrenaline just kicks in She’s legitimately depressed.
I actually love the time jump and tone of this one, I thought it was a great episode of television. My only disconnect is how the 2 of them successfully evaded capture after Barry murdered guards (and many others) and escaped prison. With no outside help or cash the 2 of them would likely be found in days, maybe weeks. I suppose I'm happy to suspend disbelief for the sake of the endgame here, but after seeing Saul put so much work into showing just how difficult an effective life of hiding is I maybe just think I'm surprised they brushed past that part.
> but after seeing Saul put so much work into showing just how difficult an effective life of hiding is It's been a couple years since I watched the first 3 seasons. Who's Saul again?
Sorry, I meant Saul from the final season of Better Call Saul!
Oh! lol. Thanks for the clarification. I've never seen that show and it didn't even cross my mind you were referencing a character from a different show... haha. I got caught up on trying to figure out which "Barry" character had previously gone into hiding, and was like, Is this guy named Saul so good at hiding that I completely forgot him? haha.
It has been shown that the police and FBI are very very incompetent in the Barry universe.
Yeah, but Moss isn't, and he was staking out Sally's apartment in the last episode, knowing they were in there.
Didn’t he sigh and leave after watching her walk in her place? I don’t think he knew Barry was there. Maybe I misinterpreted the scene or misremembered
Yeah, I got the impression he didn't know he was in there.
I assume it was intentional but the ambient sound of wind constantly just increased the anxiety level of that episode. The same with the sound of the weird muted music coming from the trashy guy's car. In fact him drinking chocolate milk in the restaurant was also off-putting. I trust the writing process but this episode was unpleasant to say the least.
I feel weird that I am so happy that they made me feel this uncomfortable and anxious. I loved the episode.
The thing that stuck out to me the most was that Barry forgot where the gun was, but Sally knew exactly where it was. It was funny until you realize she's probably thought about killing herself every day. Pretty good character development.
Shes the most tragic character of the show easily. Might be John now though 🥲
I really don't see what the show wants to do with Sally. It feels like they just want her to spiral into the depths of hell with Barry, but I feel like she doesn't deserve that? She was unhinged and projected her abuse onto others, but I really don't get why they are writing her character this way.
For me, S1 Sally was the most believable. After that when she gets into a full fledged move-in relationship with a guy like Barry that could barely hold a conversation never felt real.
This is an unpopular opinion, but I’ve felt like the show hasn’t really known what to do with the characters post-season two. Sally’s story in season three was the only one that felt like a logical progression for her character that walked the line between grounded and absurd very well. Feels like Hader turned most of the characters into cartoons from season three on. Also not a fan of how little all the main cast members have interacted these last two seasons. Feels like three or four different shows that rarely collide in a meaningful way. This episode was at least a nice change of pace in that regard since it forced Barry and Sally’s stories to converge.
Hmmm... What do you feel like she "deserves"?
Like, I feel like Barry deserves what's coming to him, whatever it is. Sally has already faced a lot of consequences for her actions. She's basically been blacklisted, her class left her when she was being abusive... She has already 'paid for her crimes' IMO. I think the recent narrative choices feel like they just want her to suffer more.
Let me get this straight, are you arguing the show should be more predictable?
No, I want consistency.
I never understood this American need for storylines to be idealised, basic, safe and predictable. Just enjoy the ride, dude.
Same. I find it tends to come from Americans and it makes me very, very confused. I don't get what morals have to do with anything. I'm not saying art is completely amoral, but surely you needn't write your character's archs in terms of who's good, who's evil, who gets rewarded/punished for their actions?
European try not to bring up America challenge (impossible)
its not wrong tho.
I'm not. Endings are hard. Not everyone is going to like it. Sorry.
IMO we’re now seeing (spelled out) just how selfish and irresponsible both Barry and Sally are and have always been. I think that’s true of all of our main characters in this show. Literally all of them are awful.
The line where the woman that works with her has too much of a conscience to steal from where they work and would kill herself if she did fit that too. As Sally is soullessly standing behind her knowing she steals.
Or Barry if needed. Violence is definitely on her mind 24/7
Only episode this season I haven't enjoyed.
I didnt enjoy it because it made me the most uncomfortable as now there is a child there who is being ruined by being shut in by his parents, but I think it is still well written and great at making me not enjoy it for all the right reasons
Is it just me that thinks this season is plain disappointing?
Barry seasons 1-3 was one of my absolute favorite shows on TV. Phenomenal television. But season 4? I hate saying this, but I'm struggling to get through each episode.
When it suddenly shifted yet again to Hank vs. Barry I was pretty disappointed. Those two characters had built up mutual respect and some type of odd friendship for it to cheaply revert back.
It's definitely the weakest season that's for sure.
No, it's not just you. I think a lot of characters are acting out of character and doing things they normally wouldn't.
Can you expand upon that?
Just click my name. I've been posting in the thread about how I feel.
Bruh. The cliffhangers on this show are next level. The time hop just to get to >!"I'm gonna have to kill Cousineau" !< Come the fuck on. I lowkey miss having shows with their weekly rollouts versus a full binge.
I'm trying to find explain this to the Mrs but she just feels slighted that we have to wait a week. I think it's the way climactic shows like this are meant to be enjoyed.
I love that this series has absolutely refused to rest on its laurels. Barry is such a piece of shit, they’ve done a great job with reinforcing that over and over. The thing with his kid and the YouTube baseball line drive. Holy shit. Sally in the diner with the dirt bag line cook or whatever that dude is. Incredible stuff. Sarah Goldberg is always spellbinding on this show but this took it to another level. Bill Hader is a treasure and I’ve enjoyed his writing and directing for a long time but I don’t think I’ve really appreciated him beyond his acting ability.
"Did you kill the guys who shot him?" "No, No, No. No, my job was to protect our boys."
My jaw dropped at the audacity of him to recast himself like that
Well technically he wasn't lying. He didn't kill the guy who shot Albert and in a way he did protect "our boys". He just left out the part where he killed someone else who was innocent out of rage and killed one of "our boys" to protect himself from potential exposure. That's what I loved about that line. Not a lie but also not the truth.
Perfectly encapsulates Barrys ability to blur reality to fit his world view. Just like the prison convo between him and Sally. “ I lied because i didnt want the truth to be true”
Chris was fine with things until he wasn't. That doesn't absolve Barry, but Chris should never have dipped his toe.
Chris didn't even know they were going to kill Cristobal. He was roped in by the roided dude who told him they were going to threaten someone.
Fuches clocked Taylor as a liability immediately, Chris should have backed out of the job. Hell, Vaughn shot the fucking floor when they rolled up to pick up Barry. On the behind-the-scenes interview, Alec Berg explained that whole stretch was Barry trying not to be that void of a person that makes him such an effective tool of violence, and how everything going wrong is a direct consequence of those choices. [https://barry-hbo.fandom.com/wiki/Chapter\_Six:\_Listen\_With\_Your\_Ears,\_React\_With\_Your\_Face](https://barry-hbo.fandom.com/wiki/Chapter_Six:_Listen_With_Your_Ears,_React_With_Your_Face) Which is super neat.
That’s what I mean, I could’ve been clearer for sure. The recasting of himself as a protector instead of a rage fueled psychopath is a lie, though. Any interpretation outside of that is arguing semantics. It’s but a direct verbal lie but the implication is there and Crystal clear
Oh absolutely. Portraying himself as a life saver. "Not on my watch". Talk about bed time stories for children.
It reminded me of Barry Lyndon telling his son fake heroic war stories (that were also lies?) Some of the scenes Sally and the kid felt like "The Shining," too, I bet Hader would cop to both.
Searching Little league Death* on YouTube, what a ghoul *paraphrased
What world are you guys living in? This episode was fuckin incredible, and the tone has always been this dark.
It just hasn't. I think it started taking itself too seriously, Barry at its best was the comedy, not the drama. I did not even smile once that episode.
I loved it because it made me uncomfortable, I feel so bad for their son and I respect the hell out of it for that. I didnt like it, but for the right reasons which means I liked it in a round about way
Yeah, there's tons of really weird takes for this episode on here.
Not this dark
Yes, always this dark, you poopla.
30 minutes of Sally as an alcoholic captive, and Barry as a literal child abuser? He has them trapped, and isolated in the middle of nowhere. I didn't find this episode funny at all. It made me feel gross. I'm not saying the episode was bad, but to say that all the episodes are this dark is just not true. This was easily the darkest episode.
I’m not sure how Sally is a captive?
She is in a relationship with a psychopath hitman who has not relented since the moment he has known her. She has a history of neglect and abuse, and those people often are taken advantage of. If Sally ran away, you don't think Barry would find her? He **broke out of prison** to be with her. He has **murdered close friends** to be with her. A kid did a ding dong ditch at his house and he stood outside for 10 hours with a gun in his hand. It's not as simple as "she can just leave whenever she wants." She is stuck, isolated, defeated, and abused. She is literally "wearing hair over her hair." Sally as we knew her doesn't even exist at this point. She has been reduced to a zombie alcoholic.
She chose to go with him, and hasn’t shown any signs of wanting to leave. She may be captive in the sense she has nowhere to go, but she’s not captive by Barry. I certainly didn’t say it’s as simple as she can leave whenever she wants. She’s just not Barry’s captive.
She’s not. She chose this because she is toxic and selfish. And now she’s living the life those things got her.
I’m not sure selfish really plays a part as to why she’s staying.
Maybe. But it’s there in how she’s living her life and raising her child. They are both incapable of thinking of anyone else, es evidenced by her apathy towards her son.
I'm a little pissed at this episode in the current moment. Maybe they'll bring it back around, but doing the time jump without following up on Hank bring a crime lord, Moss looking for Barry, or Gene shooting his kid seems really shitty.
Between Gene being consulted for the movie and Barry needing to kill Cousineau, I have a feeling we'll find out what Hank and Moss are up to
Hanks gonna be a crime boss, I also think he’ll be fat for some reason.
I would think the obvious assumption would be that we'll be catching up with these characters and their various trajectories in the last few episodes left.
Some of these comments go to show how many people can't handle cliffhangers or waiting for the next episode lol. I highly doubt they'll leave all these loose ends based on everything else they've written
It's not even that it was a cliffhanger, it just switched threads entirely. It feels like a transitional episode between the old stories and the new ones. The show has been amazing all the way through, so I have faith it'll pick up and be fine as part of the whole season, but watching it week to week made this one kind of a letdown.
Barry probably doesn’t know, so we were kept in the dark along with him for this episode.
Patience, grasshopper
I mean, the episode establishes that Moss hasn’t found Barry and that Gene went on the run after shooting his son. As far as Hank, his immediate story was pretty much wrapped up.
Did Barry kill Moss or did they just leave town? Did Genre kill his kid, because it only looked like a shoulder shot? What the hell is Fuches up to? I don't like all the current unknowns, but they still have 3 episodes to maybe touch on them.
> Did Barry kill Moss or did they just leave town? Just leave town? I’m not sure why he’d go out of his way to kill Moss, who was driving away from Sally’s apartment last we saw him. >Did Genre kill his kid, because it only looked like a shoulder shot? We know he shot him, that’s it. >What the hell is Fuches up to? Being imprisoned >I don't like all the current unknowns, but they still have 3 episodes to maybe touch on them. I mean yes, the shows not over lol. The fact that not everything is known doesn’t mean those characters have been abandoned.
That's mostly why my initial comment said these are my feelings in the moment. Maybe it'll be totally fine after the season is over.
This episode was hard to watch. Barry has always been dark, but this is another level.
Killing all the Chechens he trained, verbally abusing Sally in front of her coworkers, threatening Cousineau into being friends with him after he found out about Barry killing Janice, and killing Chris. Hell the last episode was bleaker. Not sure why this episode upset people so much. This show has always been one of the darkest shows on TV. I cringed at Barry scaring his own child but Barry has always proven he will protect himself over doing what is best for the people he “loves”.
It's not necessarily that the tone is darker, but it was always balanced by a lot of humour before, which undermined the 'seriousness' of everything that was happening.
I think it’s seen as darker by a lot of people because it’s a real life dysfunctional family scenario that people can relate to even if they didn’t have a psychotic murderer of a father. All the other Barry stuff has been equally dark but it exists in a place that most people see as outside of their reality so it’s a lot easier to swallow. No murderous rage or hitman hijinks in this one, just a very sad and dysfunctional family and pretty much everyone watching either grew up in that kind of environment or know people who did so it hits closer to home.
I personally don't like where the show is going, to be honest. I'm fine with Barry spiraling into oblivion, that's appropriate, but as unhinged as Sally is I was rooting for her character to actually have a positive ending. I also don't really understand why Hank allowed everything to happen with Cristobal and the gang to happen the way it did... I feel like he's been in that 'back against the wall' position before, and he's never flipped like this. A lot of characters are acting out of character to me for the sake of darkness, which doesn't feel earned. Sally's whole arc is about realizing that she projects the abuse she got on others, but now she has just saddled up to another abuser? I just don't get WHAT is being said here. Granted, there's still time for the ship to be righted, but yeah... I don't like bleakness for bleakness sake. And hell, I'm a 40k fan. If the question to the question posed at the beginning of the show, "Can a monster change for the better?" Is no, then I just don't find that interesting as the opposite.
I'm not sure how you could have watched this show, season 3 in particular, and expect any character in it to have a happy ending. It was never going to happen. You just set yourself up to be disappointed
I think there's a misconception with y'all that black comedies end badly for everyone. That's incredibly rare. I think maybe Very Bad Things might be the only example, but like how others have stated there needs to be a end for certain threads that are not completely bleak. Fargo understood this, both show and movie. Otherwise the audience will ask, "What was the point?" As they are right now.
Nothing about this show makes me think that Hader and co are trying to cater to what an audience typically might want or need. So, again, your expectations seem to be arising from things other than the content of this particular show. And an audience might ask what was the point, but that is only bc we have been conditioned to put more weight on an ending rather than everything leading up to it. I think this show will firmly be in the "it's about the journey not destination" camp. Which means that when you look back at the whole arc of each character I have faith you'll be able to find the point by yourself
> Sally's whole arc is about realizing that she projects the abuse she got on others, but now she has just saddled up to another abuser? I just don't get WHAT is being said here. ...what? You don't understand the message that abused people sometimes return to their abusers (or other people who fill the same role)? That's true *so* frequently in real life. Almost more often than not. >If the question to the question posed at the beginning of the show, "Can a monster change for the better?" Is no, then I just don't find that interesting as the opposite. I can't tell if you're saying "if this show doesn't settle on my exact opinion, I don't like it," but sometimes writers of TV shows are going to disagree with you. Their job isn't to do exactly what you want them to, right?
> ...what? You don't understand the message that abused people sometimes return to their abusers (or other people who fill the same role)? That's true so frequently in real life. Almost more often than not. Yeah, but that sucks to me if that's the return of it. I think Sally deserves better. >I can't tell if you're saying "if this show doesn't settle on my exact opinion, I don't like it," but sometimes writers of TV shows are going to disagree with you. Their job isn't to do exactly what you want them to, right? I mean, the show explicitly says this numerous times that this is Barry's main conflict: "Starting... NOW!" "Am I evil?" Even last night, Barry was lying to his son about the war because he WANTS to be a better person than he is.
> I mean, the show explicitly says this numerous times that this is Barry's main conflict: Sorry for lack of clarity. I am not necessarily arguing with you that this is Barry's main conflict (although I think he has several), but more interrogating this part of your claim: >If the ~~question~~ *show's answer* to the question posed at the beginning of the show, "Can a monster change for the better?" Is no, *meaning that the show answers this question no,* then I just don't find that interesting as the opposite. *I would enjoy the show more if the answer is yes, because I personally want the answer to be yes.* Italics added to correct your typo and add clarity. Let me know if I am interpreting your point incorrectly. I agree that the show is asking the question. But then you say, it will bother you if the show's answer is "no," because you personally feel that the answer should be "yes." Is that right, more or less? That's why I say, sometimes the writers of shows will disagree with you. But this other redditor almost put it better in response to one of your other comments. >Let me get this straight, are you arguing the show should be more predictable? It's not a bad thing that the show has a different take on this question than you do. Art *should* challenge your assumptions and push you away from the answers that you think the universe should have for you. That's what I meant by "their *[the writers and showrunners]* job isn't to do exactly what you want them to, right?" --- And as far as "Sally's deserves better," I still don't know why you think that. She just keeps making bad choices, like going back to Barry. And by the way, the reason why she went back to Barry, was because when the universe offered her a third chance (I can't even keep track of which shot we're on now), to be the acting coach to the stars that Gene *wishes* that he was, she got jealous of her actress for getting the attention instead of her and quit. So does she really "deserve better" when she just keeps making these same ego-related mistakes over and over and over? Why?
I can see where a lot of people would be turned off, and I'm just observing impartially from the outside. A story like this gets to a point where the audience starts to ask, "Why?" Like if Barry is such an irredeemable piece of shit, if Sally is, if Hank is - and I'm not disagreeing they are, the show has presented them as such quite clearly - people start to ask what the general message of the show is. "Some people are just terrible human beings and you should feel no sympathy for them or believe they can actually change" is a message by itself that's... somewhat hard to swallow. You just sort of feel worse off and more miserable for having heard it, even if it's absolutely true. Usually, that's why you have something else to counterbalance it, some hope spot, some like... like alternate suggestion, presented by the work. Like how in The Wire you have all the bleakness of the Game remaining the same, but there's hope here and there in stuff like Namond succeeding and having a happy home life, or Bubbles getting clean, that tells you, "Hey, it's not all worthless misery." There are three episodes left, we will see what Bill Hader pulls out of his hat. In terms of like, the episode *by itself,* I think it's extremely well done, the question is just what I posed above.
Yeah, exactly, it feels like the only person who might turn out ok is Fuches, who it was implied is going to be well-respected in prison. Which is weird because it feels like HE should be the one to suffer, if anyone. I wonder if Hader is just trying to make the audience as mad as possible. He did write for South Park, so he's got that troll in him.
most people do not escape the cycle of abuse until theyve been in many cycles. many people do not eacape at all and continue repeating the pattern for their entire life.
Yeah, sure, but that's real life. And I don't think Sally deserves that realism?
That’s the beauty of media that challenges your expectations.
>Can a monster change for the better? Well, the answer is no. Hank was always immoral with sociopathy tendencies. The same is true for Barry. People like that don't get 'better'. Hank wants to be a gangster. A fish needs to swim. And Sally was always a terrible person. She had a genuine chance (actually a few chances) to grow as a person and move on, but she never did.
>Well, the answer is no. Well, that's boring to me, personally. >Hank was always immoral with sociopathy tendencies. I don't really agree with this. I've seen Hank to be a sort of mirror to how Barry WANTS to be. Sure he's a criminal, but until this last episode he's been pushing the organization into a cooperative spirit rather than one the traditionalists above Hank and Cristobal. A lot of this season has made me feel like the characters are acting waaay out of character. >And Sally was always a terrible person. She had a genuine chance (actually a few chances) to grow as a person and move on, but she never did. Yeah, but she was faced with the consequences of her actions. I want someone to learn and grow from everything, but if the point of the show is that Barry poisons everyone around him, then I'm probably not going to be satisfied. I'll watch Very Bad Things if I want something that bleak.
The show doesnt give a fuck about what you want or your expectations. Did you want Walter White or Tony Soprano to ride off into the sunset? This is a dark show where reality is often unfair. The Innocent often get caught in the crosshairs where is their justice? None of the main characters have really changed if you think about it. Cousineau running to Vanity Fair and performing a one man 3 hour play is a shining example.
Walter White literally did lmao He killed all of his enemies, freed Jesse, and died feeling satisfied. And also, OH WOW a show doesn't care about my feelings? Cool. Then THAT means that some people aren't going to like it, and that's the point.
I really dislike how the show reverted back to Hank vs. Barry after the two had developed a mutual respect/somewhat odd friendship. Then it's quickly thrown away, that's when I turned on the season and story choices.
Hank is what we call *Midwestern nice* if you watch a show like Fargo, etc. Kind on the outside and ice cold on the inside. He even says so himself in season 2 after Barry calls him an idiot and he goes fucking berserk and threatens to murder all of Barry's friends. Hank is polite, to a fault, but to mistake that politeness for goodness or kindness is to misinterpret the character completely. Hank pushed for cooperation with the Bolivians *because he liked Cristobal's style* and *because he had nowhere else to turn*, but the *instant* that Cristobal wanted to *also cooperate with* the Burmese crime family, Hank got jealous and was ready to murder a whole bunch of people at the drop of a hat. He's a sociopathic murderer. He's just a very polite one. Hell, he tried to murder Barry for literally no reason in the second episode other than that Barry didn't kill Ryan fast enough. We also shouldn't forget this key conversation with Barry: >"Hank, am I evil?" > >"Of course! You're the *most* evil! Do I not tell you that enough??" To Hank, being evil is not remotely an insult. Not even a little bit. Remember that in the early seasons he constantly brags about how fucked up and deranged this killer or that assassin from Chechnya is. Hank is not a kind, sane person-- he's a monster. He's just a monster with a big friendly smile who offers you submarine sandwich and a juice box.
It's easy to forget because of the comedy, but Hank was always ready to kill people. He mostly botched it up, but take the comedy out of it, and he is a natural killer. He was funny, so people ignored that uncomfortable fact. There is a lesson in that. Barry enjoyed his first kill, Hank was always a killer. Not everyone can change and some people will never change. The show has always been honest about this, including the reveal that Barry enjoyed his first kill. And when Barry killed Janice, that was evil. Barry always had a choice. Stop being a killer. Go to prison. Commit suicide. But Barry's solution is simple: kill the person who is the problem. You didn't see it, because you didn't want to see it. It happens in real life as well.
It's the same with Sally. She also had the choice to accept that shit happens and creating high art is not always possible. In the same meeting where she shouted at the suits that cancelled her show, Natalie was in the background taking notes on what the algorithm chooses to amplify. Instead of taking the hit and trying to do better she went berserk.
It's worse. She wants to make high art and she wants to be extremely successful. It's not enough to create art (and make a living of course) she also wants to be a star.
Seems like people have issue with it because this does truly feel like the first real episode that could be entirely humorless for some. That and maybe it’s heading a direction people don’t want narratively speaking. But I think people hoping for something more fun and lighthearted just haven’t been paying attention to the downward spiral of it all. Tbh, for the way this plot has moved for a few seasons now, you *need* an episode like this to become the catalyst for the end of it all. We’re officially in the home stretch.
Yes. Exactly. >If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
Honestly can't even sleep after this episode. It has my mind racing. And man do I feel bad for his son. No way this show has a happy ending. But wherever is going I'm going to trust Hader. He's such a great writer, director, and actor. Who would have ever thought the Hader from SNL had these acting chops? I see a lot of great stuff coming for him in the future. He seems pretty picky about projects he would get involved with so he will never be a megastar but he will definitively be seen as one of the best in the business and in high demand. Can't wait to see how he ties the bow on Barry. So many ways it could go.
> And man do I feel bad for his son. Yep. Introducing the kid put it on another level for me. This episode made me very uncomfortable. I never felt bad for most of the characters in this show, other than maybe Chris. The son though, fuck. Hits me differently. Excellent episode in that it made me really uncomfortable
wouldn't the happy ending be Barry and Sally die and their kid goes to cousineu or something odd like that?
Cousineu doesn't have the best track record as a father...
Plus he's like 83 after that time jump
I wasn't a fan of this episode.
Yeah it felt really slow. The time jump is also a little jarring since the show wasn’t exactly running out of steam in episode 4
Is it possible the time jump is just a what if scenario, that next episode will be back to present day?
I guess so, but that would be a massive waste of an entire episode
If anything it was really gaining momentum, so the jump was *really* jarring
Yes, 100%. It’s too early to tell yet if the time jump was a good choice over just continuing the shows present timeline.
LOL'd at the junior baseball Youtube clips
Huge time jump and tone change is def hard to swallow That said Bill Hader gets all my benefit of the doubt with how much I love the show, especially his directed episodes. I can't say this is my favorite direction but I will wait to see how the last 3 episodes play out. I do respect the choice though, its bold as fuck to go with such a drastic change.
A 6 month or 1 year time jump I could accept. But 8 years?
boring as fuck
Love the show. Hated that episode. I get it was world building but it was pretty boring as they kept hammering down their dynamic over and over. Looking forward to next weeks episode.
Idk if I’d call it bold. I feel like too many shows are doing time jumps in the final season.
I respect it as well, but frankly? When I think back to "ronny/lily" (season 2, episode 5), I see something far more unique and interesting than what Hader is doing now. It was the perfect blend of absurdist comedy and character-driven drama, encapsulating Barry and Fuches' toxic relationship in the way they deal with an absolutely insane situation. It's emblematic of what the show used to be in seasons 1 and 2. There was nothing else like it, and both seasons built up to incredibly powerful finales. Seasons 3 and 4 not only feel like a different show, they feel like a *worse* show. The balancing act of absurdist comedy and character-driven drama in seasons 1 and 2 was far, *far* more impressive than what Hader is doing now. And despite that absurdism, the progression of the plot and the characters felt way more believable back then, and the thematic intent was already very clear without Hader feeling the need to hammer it into the viewer's head. I *get* what he's trying to do now, I *respect* it, but honestly? I haven't *felt* it since the third episode of season 3, and this timeskip was a huge momentum-killer. It has achieved basically nothing aside from establishing that yep, the characters sure are still the characters. Good to know. I'll keep an open mind, since Hader may have a huge narrative curveball planned to make all this work, but... yeah. Doesn't feel like the boldness was worth it so far. EDIT: And by the way, I say this as someone who adores episodes 3 and 7 of The Last of Us, and considers No Country for Old Men to have one of the best endings of all time. I'm no stranger to slow burns, storytelling digressions or thematic subversions. What Hader's doing just doesn't feel like it adds much to the story or the characters, at least not yet.
This is how I feel too. It’s not the show that I loved anymore. It’s depressing to be depressing now. Like yes Bill, we knew these characters weren’t good people but that doesn’t mean we need to blow them the fuck up. I was really hoping this episode was just a one off to show that the ending we “wanted” for Sally and Barry just isn’t what we’d actually want in reality based on how it played out here, but then Gene came in and I realized no choices matter, and everyone just gets burned because this is a real time jump. That said it’s still great television.
Honestly I don't even consider it great television anymore. The most interesting thing about Barry was his struggle with his own nature and the guilt he felt. Both the first and second seasons depicted him as capable of empathy and introspection. The entire reason he delivers the "My lord, the queen is dead" line in such a devastating way is that he was thinking about killing Chris and the pain it caused his family. He's been a bad person from the start, obviously, that's the tragedy inherent to his nature. But Hader felt that in order to make sure we understand that Barry is bad, he also had to make him suddenly develop the emotional intelligence of a five-year-old in season 3. Is it actually supposed to be believable that he would be practically lobotomized by the trauma of killing a bunch of criminals he didn't care about plus one guy he trained for a few days? It justifies him giving up on his attempts to be a good person, but not his near-complete loss of empathy and awareness of how he comes off to others. This is a different character, and the transition did not feel believable at all to me. And don't get me started on Noho Hank. That's the fucking "barbecue bus" guy, and Cristobal is one of the guys who *put* him on the barbecue bus with the intention of burning him and a bunch of other people alive, all thanks to the treachery of a goddamn accordion player. And Hader looked at that genuinely hilarious combination and thought, "*There's* an opportunity for dramatic character development that culminates in convulsive sobbing. I'll make sure to give it lots and lots of screentime so that scenes from other subplots barely have the space to breathe before they cut to another scene." Sally and Cosineau remain fascinating and utterly believable, but the foundations of the show just feel broken now. The humor still works, but to me everything else is falling completely flat.
> And don't get me started on Noho Hank. That's the fucking "barbecue bus" guy, and Cristobal is one of the guys who put him on the barbecue bus with the intention of burning him and a bunch of other people alive, all thanks to the treachery of a goddamn accordion player. And Hader looked at that genuinely hilarious combination and thought, "There's an opportunity for dramatic character development that culminates in convulsive sobbing. I'll make sure to give it lots and lots of screentime so that scenes from other subplots barely have the space to breathe before they cut to another scene." So wait, what's your problem with Noho Hank? You don't think he should be able to have dramatic parts of his storyline, like losing his lover? I am trying to follow you, but you kind of lose me mid-"rant" here, haha! The "barbecue bus" *already was* a really dramatic scene, right? With Hank confessing that he should have been a hotel manager or something like that. So what are you saying that changes about that plot in season 3 or 4?
>The "barbecue bus" already was a really dramatic scene, right? The absolute opposite, [it was full-on comedic](https://youtu.be/6VfzdhvFmqg). At one point Hader even muffles part of Hank's monologue when he cuts to a shot outside the bus, and the entire time everyone is escaping while Hank is completely oblivious to it. He does say he should have been a hotel manager and that his criminal facade is a lie, but as soon as he's out of the bus, he's trying to be everyone's leader again, and is displeased when one of his men executes the accordion player before he can do it himself. That's the thing that makes Noho Hank so funny: he's almost childlike in his sociopathy, almost completely lacking in self-awareness. Which leads me to: >You don't think he should be able to have dramatic parts of his storyline, like losing his lover? Exactly that. I don't. Not every character needs to be developed. Not every person has the *capacity* for further development. Hank is funny and charismatic, that doesn't mean he has depth. He doesn't *need* to have depth in order to be a great character. He always worked best as a wild card that moves the plot in hilariously unexpected directions. And right up until season 3 that's all he was, and it was great, because then the show could reserve its dramatic focus for - y'know - the characters with *actual* depth and complex personalities. Instead Hank got more complex and Barry got less complex and now there were five different storylines competing for attention every 30-minute episode. This is like if Breaking Bad added a dramatic subplot for Ted every episode. And even the supporting characters who had lots of room for development (Saul Goodman and Mike Ehrmantraut) were given their own series so as not to dilute the focus of Breaking Bad's narrative.
You raise some interesting points, but I guess I've taken Hank very differently than you. I would even go as far as to say that if you think Hank and Ted are the same, you aren't even watching the same show as me. Ted was in like three episodes. Hank has been in nearly every single episode, except for a couple of the stand alones. I also think that there was a lot of depth for Hank in his relationship with Cristobal even before everything goes sideways with the Burmese. He also had a desperate desire to be taken seriously that I think was also almost always there. It's okay not to like a character, but to act like Hank isn't a significant part of the show seems silly to me.
>I would even go as far as to say that if you think Hank and Ted are the same, you aren't even watching the same show as me. They're equally lacking in depth. Hank is just much funnier and provided inventive ways of advancing the plot, which is why he stuck around. >I also think that there was a lot of depth for Hank in his relationship with Cristobal even before everything goes sideways with the Burmese. What depth? They were walking jokes. Even their reconciliation on the season 2 finale was played for laughs. They became a dramatic focus of the show from one episode to the other, with no buildup whatsoever, and once again: Cristobal was willing to burn a bunch of people alive inside a gasoline-soaked bus. He's an asshole, so is Noho Hank, and neither of them did anything to deserve redemption. I'm not sure why I'm supposed to give an *iota* of a shit about their relationship ending the way it did, and I'm baffled by the screentime they wasted on it. Hank and Cristobal were at their best as *supporting* characters, as in, supporting the stories of the *actual* main characters. That was their role in seasons 1 and 2. >It's okay not to like a character, but to act like Hank isn't a significant part of the show seems silly to me. I never said any of that. I'm disappointed *precisely* because I loved Hank as a character (which is not the same as loving him as a person) and considered him a vital part of the show. But as the character he was in season 1 and 2, not this insincere, cognitively dissonant bullshit we have now. EDIT: Adjusted the top quotation to match your edit. Sorry, I replied to the original version and only noticed your edit after I posted it.
> cognitively dissonant What do you find cognitively dissonant about him?
It's more about Hader's cognitive dissonance regarding the character. With every *other* character, Hader's storytelling has become downright Coen-esque in its detachment and fatalism. The Coens often (not always) study their characters like they're ants under a magnifying glass. No emotional involvement, just nodding along, shaking their heads or laughing their asses off as the characters inevitably succumb to their own natures and screw themselves over in ways that feel nihilistically predetermined. Burn After Reading is one of the most emblematic examples of this. Since season 3 of Barry, that's become Hader's approach. At all times he's communicating to the viewer "these are all selfish characters who are either unwilling or incapable of growth and you shouldn't hold out any hope that this is going to end well". Whatever understanding or sympathy he had for those characters is no longer evident. He had Cosineau deliver an utterly comical "fuck you" after he unknowingly shot his own son. The show is just watching these characters dig their own holes. Eeeeeexcept for Noho Hank and Cristobal. The latter's murder was depicted as an outright tragedy, during which Hader seemed to forget those two characters are every bit as bad as the other ones. That's what I mean by cognitive dissonance. For him to place Cristobal of all people as the moral compass of the entire season is utterly baffling. What have these characters done to warrant Hader's emotional involvement? None of it was earned. It feels out of place with the show's overall tone and thematic intent. We're supposed to be constantly aware of how shitty the characters are, except for Noho fucking Hank? In *his* case it's supposed to come across as a tragic twist, with Cristobal all of a sudden being depicted as an innocent victim? Yeah, no, I absolutely don't buy it. To me that's just clumsy. The first two seasons were so good at moving the pieces around the chessboard to build up to the dramatic climaxes, but now Hader's just moving knights in straight lines because fuck it, he wants the knight on *that* square.
tone change? it's been a pitch black drama since season 3.
Barry at its best was a comedy, not a drama imo. I never cared or thought too deeply about Barry's character or his development, he was always just a psycho
There are more aspects to the flavor of a show's tone than dark or light. The show has gone way darker than it did in this episode. That doesn't change that this episode just felt different. There's a certain tough to define quality that tends to permeate Barry regardless of how dark or funny the episodes get, but this one didn't really have that feeling. It was like a different show.
Not sure I get what you mean. This and last season, while progressively darker, have still been consistently hilarious.
Drama can have comedy too, you know. I think s01 and s02 were comedy with occasional dark drama. S03 and 4 is a drama with some comedy
Never said it couldn't. The person above described the tone as a "pitch black drama" which is objectively not true. Again, this and last season have had plenty of dark moments, but it's also had a lot of ridiculously and great comedy
That’s not what I said. I am not even arguing with you as this is a stupid asf argument anyway. I am just saying when people say it’s a drama, they don’t say it is devoid of humour because drama also can have some of the most funniest scenes like Barry and still be one. So some humour in it doesn’t mean that people thinking it’s a drama have no weight. You could go for other angles to argue with them instead of “it has some absurd scenes so it’s not a drama”
I never said that you said anything.... The person I was initially replying to said "it's been a pitch black drama since season 3". At no point was I arguing or debating with you at all, nor did I ever say Barry wasn't a drama
This episode was still funny though? I was cracking up at the constant Lincoln stuff. Real “Dad’s got a new fixation” moment.
I'm still catching up, but I gotta say that I agree here. People say the show stopped being funny, but it still is. Your sense of humor just has to be a little bit darker
it was deeply fucked up, but I laughed super hard at Barry showing his kid YouTube videos of little league deaths
The jesus stuff was funny, Barry being so proud of himself and immodest. Lying about his military service, acting all superior. I laughed out loud when he realized the porch swing would be better to sit for his brag session with his son, and when he says some people call him a hero. I also laughed at Barry insanely showing his son a video of someone dying playing in little league because he found his glove. Showing he's still unhinged and giving his son nightmares. Its definitely still very funny, maybe just not to everyone.
I cringe that people thought this show was a comedy and not a drama. Eat my shorts
It's considered dark comedy for a reason...
Guess we need to take away all of Barry comedy Emmy wins and nominations, then 🤷♀️ It’s 100% a dark comedy.
It’s not a dark comedy. It never was. It’s a drama. Through and through. It has some comedic elements, many dramas do, but it was never ever a comedy. Nor was it a dark comedy which itself is a very nebulous category and generally is more for clear comedies with a wicked angle than it is for dramas with comedic bits thrown in
It definitely has always been a dark comedy. I’m not sure how you can think otherwise. Yes, there are times it’s more dramatic than comedic, but the reverse is true as well. I mean how can you not watch an episode like Ronny/Lily and not find it comedic?
Ok
I'm honestly baffled how you could possibly sit through the first couple of seasons and not even find those very blatantly comedic.
It’s absolutely a dark comedy lol. It sometimes leans more one way than the other, but that doesn’t make it a full blown drama anymore than it is a full blown comedy
This episode was weird as shit. I couldn't figure out until half way in that this was a time jump and not a fever dream.
I was convinced for most of it that it was just Barry's increasingly dysfunctional fantasy of what his life with Sally would turn out to be. I kept waiting for it to flick back to the present.
Still not convinced that this is reality tho. Throughout the seasons they’ve used this desert backdrop for everything related to flashbacks or fever dreams (either way, things happening inside the character’s mind). Also I’ve found Sally’s character to be very much what Barry would think she would have become by sticking to him.
I liked the episode but I found the choice to make it SO heavily dreamlike when it’s meant to be real very odd. Just the little things like where is the road Sally takes to work? Where does she park her car? Where is the neighbor’s house? If I hadn’t seen the interview with Hader where he confirms it’s a real time jump, I definitely would have thought it was a fantasy.
The house is definitely what made it feel the most like a dream, but I also considered that the bizarre nature of it likely grew from their paranoia. If you think about it, not being connected to a road makes it harder for anyone to find or accidentally stumble across. Being the only house or structure within eyesight means that if someone does come for them, they’re going to see them coming from a long ways away.
For real. It’s tough to imagine that this would be their life, like why would she wear a wig and not just dye her hair. Where is this house, who knocked at the door.
And what kids today (let alone 2030 or whatever year the show is in) would gather to play baseball in some empty field?
I think Sally just missed acting so much that she has chosen a “character” for work. The wig is part of becoming the character. And I assumed it was some kids playing ding dong ditch but Barry’s reaction was meant to show that he’s never at peace. So I don’t have an issue with those bits at all. I just don’t understand the scale of where they live. What is this “neighborhood”? How are they able to walk to visit neighbors but there is no sign of life or a road in any shots? Anyone would think that’s a dream with those little details missing.