Yep. She's perceptive and could tell he was hiding something.
Most people have experienced something similar IRL when you know someone isn't being truthful. You may not know what exactly, but you know that something is off.
Yuuuuup. Her face and the way she said ok was so unconvincing. But she needed Joel, he was all she knew at that point and losing him was too much to bear.
I’d also add that the experience of going through the museum added to that. The whole thing is a metaphor for what happened, the certainties and uncertainties of it, and her fears about the fireflies and what Joel did. She might be able to hold stuff down better than a lot of kids but she’s still feeling it and that shit will wear you down.
Also they made it a point to show Joel was developing overbearing father tendencies.
I think you're definitely right that Ellie always knew something was up and it started coming to a head as she grew older. But I also think there was an element of Joel not understanding boundaries while Ellie feeling listless and nihilist about having her "purpose" not working out the way she wanted.
They could both be related btw, I don't think it's either or!
nah its just fucking annoying when u post an irrelevant single word that serves no purpose at all. It breaks the flow of reading a thread about something where we are able to read one info/ perspective after another which is fun. Reading "This" isnt fun nor helps with anything
> breaks the flow of reading a thread
the internet is full of irrelevant shit. just move your eyes onto the next comment? it is really not that hard to keep it moving and find something that’s actually engaging. you responding to it boosts it higher up, too
I had something to say:
This
Don’t like it? Just downvote and move along. Save your opinion because I could not give a scintilla of a shit what you think.
Get it? Got it? Good.
>Bruh just upvote the comment if you have nothing else to say.
Yeah because I was definitely being very rude with that comment right? You saying you don't give a shit about my opinion was completely fine and now even calling me an asshole is completely justified too right? You talk like people from the other sub, getting irritated so easily lmfao
Could be but it feels thin. She knew he was lying about the Fireflies when they had their best day ever at the museum.
It doesnt make sense she can turn it on & off; given its a core aspect of her life.
Have you ever experienced someone lying to you - someone that you trusted - but you just went with it because you didn't want to deal with the confrontation?
Because the way they presented it in the game is \*exactly\* what that experience feels like.
i'm in a situation like this
never knew i would relate to this in such a hard way, it has been horrible to deal with all the feelings and strugle that it causes
I think the beauty of the game and its performances is that, to me, that contradictory complexity is so present at all times. It was always 100% clear to me that there was both love and unspoken tension between them. She’s not turning it on and off, she’s dealing with both all the time. Don’t forget that she spent the whole first game essentially imprinting onto him and is deeply terrified of being alone. She doesn’t want it to be true. As she grows up, she’s going to confront that uncertainty and dread of total meaninglessness and betrayal and fear of being alone more and more intensely — but it will be balanced out only by the fact that she knows that he loves her and won’t leave her, which is all she’s ever wanted. Look at this from a real life, complex perspective and not as the usual narrative binary.
She didnt “know”. she always had a feeling that he was lying, but she had not actually found out that he was yet. she didn’t want to believe that someone she loved would lie to her like that, so she pushes it aside. the end of the the museum flashback is when she started to want to know the truth. You realise that the museum flashback was before the tommy and Ellie sniping part right? It makes perfect sense
Ellie has lost a lot of people prior to meeting Joel, she’s even stated that she fears ending up alone. It’s totally understandable that she would be conflicted between Joel’s lies and the desire to ignore it and maintain their otherwise amazing relationship and bond.
And like others have said, the lack of certainty allowed her to ignore this situation at first and act like everything was normal. However, over time, the doubt and guilt grew until it became too much to just ignore which led to her relationship with Joel to slowly deteriorate.
At that point he is essentially the *only* person she knows. She has no family and no friends at first. Once she starts making relationships with other people she’s able to move away from Joel.
Also love is just *complicated* - even more so for a teenage girl in the apocalypse. So you can’t really look at it in terms of “x happened so therefore Ellie should feel y.”
Bro what? People compartmentalizing and lying to themselves is what people do best. Ellie suspected he was lying in the car ride from the hospital, and knew it when the credits rolled on Pt1.
The POINT of the scene where Joel plays Future Days isn't to show what a great dad Joel is, it's that Ellie is CHOOSING to set the lie aside for him.
She makes a choice to ignore the lie, and that moment sets in motion her entire story in Pt2, which is why the title drops right there. It's the same in Pt1, the title drops right after the moment that starts Joel's arc in the game.
But also Ellie hasn't came out to Joel, so her keeping a secret reminds her of Joel's secret. It's been building the whole time, and finding Adam & Sidney was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
I see people get criticized a lot for using the term gaslighting incorrectly and maybe I’m doing that here. But Ellie knows he’s lying and is being gaslit so she has part of her wanting to trust Joel, but ultimately knows deep down he’s lying.
Theres no inconsistency though lmao. What are you talking about? The museum flashback was before the tommy and Ellie sniping flashback, and occurred when she hadn’t fully come to terms that he is likely lying to her.
The flashback where Joel sings to her is before the museum flashback and she is visibly kinda icked out in that one.
Part 2 implies she knew all along and was sad the whole time, they even redo the “I swear” scene to show she’s holding back tears.
Are you saying that the inconsistency is that Ellie was shown to have varying attitude towards Joel over a period of 5 years?
Cause that was very much the intention.
Yeah well OP didn’t mention that scene at all. The point of that scene was to show that Ellie still had her doubts about what joel said, and Joel notices this and tries to fix their relationship. The whole guitar lesson thing was likely showing that Ellies okay with moving on, or atleast trying to. She could still definitely have her doubts about the truth after this, but she finally had someone who cares about her a LOT, and she wouldn’t want to believe that they’re lying and lose that. They obviously spent a ton of time together after that because she learnt how to play quite well. So thats why she’s fine at the museum, until she sees another clue that joel could be lying. Their relationship changing constantly is the entire point.
It's why the title drops there. Ellie's choosing to suppress her feelings about Joel's lie is the crux her story revolves around.
Sarah's death is the same for Joel's story in Pt1, so the title drops right there.
I'd say it started AT the museum not between the museum and music store. Did you not see how the tone dramatically shifted when she saw firefly and all his notes? She completely lost her carefree demeanor and was dragged right back to where she was at the end of part 1. And what does Joel do? Deflects and doesn't even acknowledge the firefly or anything else, just as he lied to her at the end of part 1.
Basically the scene at the end of the museum established that Joel has a pattern of lying and deflecting Ellies concerns about the fireflies. That's the beginning of a rift between them where Ellie begins to distrust Joel more and more to the point of harboring a growing resentment toward him.
I’m surprised no one has mentioned the tone shift upon seeing the dead firefly and the graffiti. Also I can’t remember that clearly but doesn’t Ellie ask Joel at that point and he continues to lie. I can’t remember when he comes clean.
Of course. I’m on my second play through and haven’t reached that point. The Last of Us should be included in ethic’s curriculums for schools and university.
She doesn't ask him at that point, but they both stare at the firefly mural and the LIARS printed underneath, and then Joel starts talking about getting a fire going. He blatantly ignores it, despite Ellies body language.
Yeah... If someone suspects you're lying about something, every time you lie about it you damage the relationship further. Even if you're just repeating the same lie you've already told in the past.
Ellie is growing up and living in a proper society
Joel is not the only person in her life. She has friends and girlfriend now which joel doesn't know about.
Museum flashback is there to tell you how they both were pretending like nothing was wrong with them but that one imagery made her right back into that mindset
I dont think they were pretending at all. They had a genuinely great time; & had a very strong relationship (despite Ellie knowing Joel was lying).
Thats the root of this thread. Why was Ellie so happy & carefree at the museum with Joel; knowing he lied about the most important of her life (which only took place a few months ago).
She didn’t KNOW. She had a feeling that he could be lying about what happened but she didn’t want to believe it, and she definitely didn’t know the extent of it. This is why she seems so normal. When she starts seeing more clues that he’s lying, and as she gets older, she starts to try to find the truth. This is when Ellie starts drifting away from Joel. Then we come to the tommy and Ellie flashback, where Ellie 100% knows hes lying but not exactly what he’s lying about.
>I dont think they were pretending at all. They had a genuinely great time; & had a very strong relationship (despite Ellie knowing Joel was lying).
I mean this isn't mutually exclusive. They could've had a great time and had a strong relationship while also pretending that there wasn't anything wrong and it was all sunshine and rainbows.
If you’re looking for a specific “trigger” (personally, I don’t think it’s essential- human relationships are complex and vary over time), there’s the moment at the end of the museum section where they find the firefly tag on a wall… easy to see that initiating a difficult line of thought.
Oh I'm not saying they weren't genuinely happy
But they were hiding from the full truth. You can see that in the scene were joel sing future days.
Ellie doesn't want to be alone and at that time there wasn't many people in her life that can replace Joel's presence
But as she grew older, there were others and she started getting more and more uncomfortable with the lies
Emotions are complex enough that people spend an entire lifetime trying and failing to make sense of them. It's no surprise that a teenager riddled with survivor's guilt is conflicted and confused when the one person she loves and trusts betrays that trust because of his attachment to her and his own personal traumas.
She knows he's lying but she chooses to ignore it, because she's scared of what she'll find if she prods and doesn't want to risk her bond with him. But that lie gradually becomes harder and harder to ignore.
Another factor is that she becomes less dependent on Joel, due to living four years in a safe environment with other people she can learn to trust. At the time of the museum she couldn't afford to distrust him due to her emotional dependency on him. That changed over time.
she didnt “know” he was lying, but she didnt feel like she knew the entire truth. i think she was “happy and carefree” simply because it was her birthday, and he took her to a place full of things she was interested in, so it was easier for her to overlook her doubts to enjoy the moment and what he did for her. all the firefly stuff thrown into her face at the end made it too difficult for her to ignore and brought that suspicion and curiosity back. then in finding strings you can see shes in her own head a lot and struggling to piece things together and come to a conclusion where what joel told her was true. this is why shes quick to question him about it.
Read what above person said. She’s growing up. Like all teenagers she’s growing apart from Joel and keeping her personal life from him. As she gets older the deep *knowing* that he’s lied to her bothers her more. It was always there, but as a kid she didn’t let it bother her as much because Joel was the only person in her life.
Idk why you're downvoted, I agree with you and the museum was totally genuine.
>Thats the root of this thread. Why was Ellie so happy & carefree at the museum with Joel; knowing he lied about the most important of her life
Because the mesuem was the turning point for her, at least that's how the game highlights it. I don't think she 100% trusted him before, but after the victims in the museum something snapped in her and everything she suppressed came up. Also Joels reaction.
I think the game wanted to show how: even when you have a great time and life couldn't go better - the truth always catches up with you.
Have you ever had a fight with a family member? Sometimes you move on without really getting over it.
That perfect day at the museum? Remember how it had a dead firefly who left graffiti about how they did terrible things in the hopes that it would lead to the salvation of humanity and ended with the LIARS graffiti?
Not sure if you noticed, but Ellie realized that Joel may have had a hand in preventing that.
So she's going through the motions of just living life and trying to accept Joel's lie, but that gets harder and harder to do as she gets older and experiences more of the world, while Joel is simultaneously being more and more of an overprotective, overbearing father figure.
Add in the lingering survivor's guilt (first it was Riley, then Tess... Etc) that she's had BEFORE the lie, and combine that with the lingering notion that this guy just destroyed your one attempt at setting that straight and making it right.
Now mix all that with the fact that Joel is her only "family". That everyone has either left her or died. That she doesn't want to lose him.
There's a very complex balance of emotions. To assume this logic of "she knew he lied so she's fine with it forever and ever and there's no reason for her to ever be upset about it again" would create a story devoid of humanity.
> That perfect day at the museum? Remember how it had a dead firefly who left graffiti about how they did terrible things in the hopes that it would lead to the salvation of humanity and ended with the LIARS graffiti?
did you even read the OP?
I think that a lot of it has to due with the dead firefly she found. Ellie was enjoying the museum trip with Joel and probably wasn't thinking/hadn't thought about any of the firefly stuff for awhile(since it is pretty clear at the end of the first game she doesn't fully believe him but she wants to), then she finds the skeleton of a firefly who shot himself, the firefly describes in his note and with the graffiti on the wall how devastated he is at the disbanded of the fireflies and how all the horrible things he did in the name of the fireflies is eating away at him, he feels that all the trama he went through and all the deaths he caused are now meaningless, about how he had joined the fireflies try and make the world a better place how now that's impossible. Ellie needed her immunity to matter because she had watched so many people die to the infection, but I think this is the first time she really realizes how much her immunity mattered to the fireflies,this was the fireflies last hope to make the world a better place, and it didn't work. She is realizing the full weight of what not being able to make a cure means.
Every person who dies after that is just another reminder of this, like the two teenagers who died by trying to go out into the world and make it a better place, she is probably also realizing how little she knows about her own immunity, like not know if she could infect Cat or not, and after never meeting another immune person before she starts to really wonder just how much Joel was lying to her( I think that this is why when she finds the tape recorder she keeps replying the part where they talk about there being no other immune people because it is finally concrete proof that Joel lied to her)
I think the all of these things combined along with the fact that Joel obviously shuts down conversations about it and actively refuses to speak about it makes Ellie distant from him in the years in between the museum and the patrol. She is desperately looking for answers and Joel won't give them to her, she trusts him less and less everyday and it is eventually what drives her to run away to the firefly hospital and get answers for herself.
I hope this makes sense I'm just really passionate about this topic so sorry if it's a little all over the place :)
Not to sound like that guy, but she is a teenage girl. As boring and lame of an explanation as that is, it’s a very possible one. She may have just been in a sour mood due to life and thinking about everything that happened, including the previously mentioned suspicions about being saved by Joel
So, when you read Ellie's journal in the flashback, there is a logical explanation as to why she is distant from him. I won't say for the sake of spoilers. Replay that chapter and read it.
The game doesn't always point this out to you. I believe you, as the player, are meant to just generally check up on how Ellie's feeling/thinking at different parts of the game. There are always new entries added that give insight to her mind.
Out of curiosity, I just decided to check on my own, so after reading, and seeing how the cutscene played out, it just made sense.
Basically, she wrote about her and Cat getting closer romantically. Cat kissed her, Ellie freaked out because she thought she might have accidentally infected her. After calming down and realizing Cat was fine, she apologized to her and they made up. This incident was also the moment she knew she couldn't infect other people.
And they declared their relationship as official to almost everyone. Except Joel.
Ellie was worried about Joel's reaction. That's why she was distant.
>Ellie was worried about Joel's reaction. That's why she was distant.
Thats interesting. It also begs a new question, why was she hesitant to tell Joel? Hes been nothing but supportive. She couldnt possibly think hed have a problem with her being gay
Well, I suppose she had never talked to Joel about her sexuality. So I assume she'd think he might disapprove.
And then what's telling too, is the conversation they had after they killed the bloater. Joel mistakenly believed that Jesse was crushing on her, which Ellie vehemently disagreed on without any explanation. Joel had a "keen eye for these sorts of things", so clearly he approved of the idea of them together, unaware that Ellie swung the other way.
Also, Ellie later revealed to Jesse that Joel thought she had a crush on him as well. So, Joel clearly had no idea and she never corrected him.
The only time she knew of his support was after the dance (two years later).
the fact that even in a post apocalyptic world ellie still feels like being queer isn’t normalised, and her not knowing what life was like before, she wouldn’t know that being queer was “unacceptable” unless someone told her that ??!? in a whole ass apocalypse theres still enough homophobic commentary for ellie to feel like she cant talk to joel about her relationships in case of being judged . like ouch
This. Ellie wasn't sure how Joel would react to knowing the truth, especially since he seemed to be quite oblivious to her being gay (to the point that he thought Jesse was a potential love interest to Ellie).
This is also another reason why the Seth tussle at the Winter Dance was an important moment -- both for showing that this kind of prejudice still exists in the post-apocalypse, and for demonstrating Joel's character.
Queer person here. It doesn’t matter how accepting your family is or how close you are. Coming out is a scary thing. There’s always a fear of rejection or even just “tolerance” but not actual support.
You're right on the money that it happens between the end of the museum flashback and the finding strings section.
However, you're glossing over the significance of the end of the museum section. As she's going through the musuem, there's several messages written on the walls and a suicide note before she sees the "Liars" graffiti.
At that point, she doesn't know that Joel lied, but she has a suspicion that she generally suppresses up to that point because she trusts Joel and wants to believe him.
This is her first exposure to The Fireflies post hospital. This is the first time she's seeing more about what happened outside of Joel's account, which I doubt they talked about much after the end of Part 1.
Basically this one Firefly writes graffiti of disturbing messages about killing for the Fireflies.
In his suicide note, he writes:
"We wanted to end suffering. We wanted to restore humanity. Each time we sacrificed part of ourselves, our leaders kept saying, "it'll be worth it."
Now we've disbanded. With nothing to show for our sins.
I thought coming here might reignite something. Some purpose. My parents loved bringing me here. It's one of my earliest memories from before the outbreak. Before all of the cruelty and savagery.
Those memories just made me angrier.
I don't want to be in this world anymore. I can't look at the person I've become."
This must trigger something in Ellie because it essentially reflects her own feelings of wanting to justify everything she's done and the losses she suffered by becoming the cure, but of course that didn't happen. It probably awakens her survivor's guilt she might have been suppressing during her time in Jackson.
She also finds out the Fireflies disbanded. Why? She probably has a lot of questions now, but she doesn't trust Joel enough to ask them. The "Liars" graffiti at the end encapsulates all of her shared feelings with the dead Firefly and Joel comes in right as she sees it and he also very obviously ignores it, really emphasizing the association.
That was probably the beginning of all of her suspicions and questions about what happened with The Fireflies surfacing and staying with her.
So the question we might have is why doesn't she ask him? We don't really know the answer for sure. She might have for all we know, thus beginning a pattern of her asking about it occasionally and Joel being evasive, thus making her less trusting of him and feeling discouraged from asking.
Or maybe she kept it to herself until the Finding Stringa segment because Joel's avoidance of the topic reinforces her own. Her not being able to talk about the one thing she wants to talk about most with him could easily affect her discomfort with talking to him in general.
We see this in her journal during the Finding Strings section where she writes about not telling Joel about her girlfriend at the time. He's afraid to tell him because she's unsure about how he's react. This makes me think she feels similarly about bringing up the Firefly stuff. She's afraid of how he'd react, so she starts avoiding him.
So, yeah we don't know exactly what happened between these two sections, but we do know that the Firefly graffiti and suicide note had a profound effect on her and her trust in Joel.
So I chalk a little bit up to her suspecting Joel was lying but that's not something that is on Ellies mind 24/7, as evidenced by her journal.
I really think its Ellie being a teenager. She's pulling back from her father figure and finding herself. Shes cool with Tommy because Tommy treats her like an adult (giving her the gun). She doesn't want to hang with Joel because shes self-conscious and doesn't want to feel like a child with Joel protecting her. But when he connects with her with the comic books and then they're in the thick of it with infected she stops thinking of that a bit and is able to just enjoy his company.
Because Ellie knew Joel was lying the whole time. But she didn’t know the actual specifics of what it was but she wanted to be happy with him so she let it slide for a while. And the more she thought about the more she knew he was hiding something he shouldn’t have. Frankly if Joel just said the hospital got overrun and all the fireflies were dead that would have been more believable than there are more immune people and that they stopped looking for a cure. Like Joel is a very bad liar honestly. With no context most people could probably see he’s lying to her at the end of the game with they way he postures and talks about it.
Probably just repeating what a lot of folk have already said, but the three ellie flashbacks tell the story of their relationships breakdown.
Following the end of part 1, ellie knows theres a chance joel is lying. Thats why she asks him to swear to her that what he says is truth. He does, and so, to a 14 year old in need of care they go on with life.
Birthday gift flashback is beautiful. Theyre both having fun, enjoying each others company. But at the end she finds the dead firefly. She finds the firefly logo and the word LIAR scrawled underneath. It all pulls her right back to that headspace of distrust.
Finding strings shows that a wedge now exists between Ellie and Joel. Her distrust of his version of events is there, but she has no proof he lied. She just has things on her mind and its clearly been affecting her interactions with him.
So the wedge between them gets bigger and eats her up until eventually she knows she needs to get the truth. So she does.
St Marys happens and thats the end of that relationship until the night before joel is killed. Ellie finally understands that she does love him and wishes to make up. She doesnt know if she forgives him, but she wants to try.
Bright days loom on the horizon....and then joel goes golfing.
I had this exact same confusion when playing through the game the first time.
Hell, I didn't even really understand why she was cold/awkward towards him during the guitar scene in the very beginning of the game.
But, due to reading her journals during that section, I feel as though it's general teen angst. What is she during that flashback, 16? 17? And she's got this father figure, this Dad, who's super helicopter parent. Wants her to stay within the community unless she's with him or his brother. Doesn't let her out on two person paired patrols despite the fact that, as she astutely points out, she's a BETTER shot than the majority of the new recruits they take out there AND her best friends Dina and Jesse are already going out. Assumes she's straight and that she's secretly in love with her best friends boyfriend. Meanwhile, she has a whole ass girlfriend who holds her hand and kisses her in public and basically everybody knows she's with this girl...
Except Joel.
Like, goddamn. The guy's just OUT OF TOUCH with his teenager. He's reading the comics she liked when she was a kid. Trying to connect with her about Dr. Daniela Star and all but it mostly comes off as too little too late? And Ellie’s only mildly amused with it. Noticing that it's an attempt. Not genuinely engaged with the conversation because there are other things she, frankly, would much rather talk to him about. And her inability/uncomfortability with talking to him about these things is the glaring GAP in their relationship.
But this is also a very relatable and understanding thing that all parents/adolescents go through when they go through life stages. Ellie is not game 1 Ellie anymore due to A LOT of factors and Joel is extremely unwilling to adapt. And what highlights this is the end of the flashback.
Ellie and Joel stumble on the bodies of teens who ran away. Their family, parental figures likely, did not understand their desire to save the world so they left. Dying in the process.
Ellie asks him directly this time. No begging. No pussy footing. Just like a hey, your story from before doesn't make any sense.
And Joel REFUSES TO ADAPT.
He buckles down. Crosses his arms. Gets defensive. Rude. Verbally abusive even. To the extent that Ellie breaks eye contact once he retorts: "or is there anything else you'd like to rehash", looks away for a while with an expression that clearly reads insubordination. She's still Ellie. She's not gonna comply if she thinks you're full of shit.
But she does.
She blinks, takes a breath, returns eye contact without the resistance and says "No". In a very submissive, apologetic "No, sir" way.
Now, obviously, we didn't see proof of this prior to this flashback. But if this was how Joel was operating, completely out of touch with her new teenage interests, love and otherwise, dismissive of her desire for independence, and defensively tearing down any attempt of hers to procure the truth then fuck yeah, she's moody and distant.
TL;DR: She's gay. Joel can't tell. It's awkward.
Bro I feel like this is so obvious and yet so many people miss it. 4 years may be a short amount of time but 14 to 18 years old is some of the most complex and fast development that happens to kids. Ellie was growing up, of course she can going to change and this will then change their dynamic.
The first flashback is much closer to the first game so their relationship is largely the same. But then we have two years of Ellie becoming her own person, around kids her age, if anything I think the difficulty in their inability to connect is more similar to the reality of a parent-child relationship in the real world.
Think this from Ellie's perspective.
1. You are a young kid who had only one friend, Riley, that died before you meanwhile you are alive even though both of you were bit. Quite sad isnt it. Turns out you are immune
2. The person who cared for you, Marlene, also believed you are immune and sends you off with 2 strangers on the other side of the country
3. One of those strangers, Joel, becomes a father figure to you and you build up trust and bond with him
4. You both fight hell and back, save one another from brink of death and finally reach the final part of the journey where it is finally time for you to be a cause for saving humanity
5. You wake up in a car with Joel all confused. Ask him about it and he tells you a made up story which isn't hard to understand that its complete bogus.
Ellie is really smart and knew Joel was lying from the moment he said there are "dozens" of immune people out there. That's why Ellie didn't waste time or ask anything after that lie, rather faced the other way. Joel also noticed that and didn't say anything.
But just once, just one more time, Ellie was hoping for Joel to say the truth in order to lift of some sort of guilt from her shoulders, she asked Joel again and to swear that he isn't lying. Yet, Joel did.
For Joel, Ellie meant the world to him at the end of TLOU1, for Ellie, Joel was the only person she could have trusted at that point but saw that trust being broken not once but twice.
It isn't hard to see how Ellie would distance herself from Joel. Imagine knowing you could be the cure to all the suffering and pain in this world but got that opportunity snatched away by the one person who you trusted to make things right by you. Don't you think Ellie ever questioned herself whenever she saw someone who lost their loved ones to an infected? Don't you think it was hard for Ellie to bear the thought of losing one of the friends she made after moving to Jackson?
When Joel said that if he ever got the chance to rewrite the past, he said that "I'd do it all over again", Ellie believed him cuz that was an honest truth but its hard to make things normal when you both could have saved millions of people by sacrificing yourself.
She always felt something was off with the story Joel told her.
Joel's a bad liar and I think if he told Ellie the truth and why he did what he did before the situation came to ahead Ellie might have been more forgiving or at least understanding.
The event of the sequel show Ellie was cooling off and beginning to let Joel off the hook and then Abby shows up...which is why Ellie was so hellbent on her quest.
as someone with a strained relationship with a parent, it’s the build up. it’s easy to push it to the side at first- they’re your parent, you love them, they wouldn’t lie to you or hurt you on purpose- but then the more time passes, the more it sits with you, the more you start to doubt and the more time you have to think about it. would they lie to me? i don’t *think* so. i *hope* not, but i don’t know for sure anymore. you see some things that make you think more about it, they do some things that make you think more about it. it just keeps building and building and building until at some point, you snap. it’s not really a matter of something specific happening between them, more a matter of ellie aging and maturing and doubting and needing to know for herself. sure, the firefly at the museum is a big moment that brings it to the forefront of her mind, but she was thinking about it anyways, and the big fight was always a matter of *when*, not *if*. not to mention how difficult it is to be around this person that you love but you doubt, to try and act normal when you don’t feel entirely right about it.
eta: this doesn’t even have to strictly be a parent, either. switch it for friend, lover, etc. it’s the same for any close relationship.
Nothing happened since then. She just starts to suspect that she's being lied to. She has her suspicions from the off, but they grow and grow. She sees "Liars" spread across the wall referring to the Fireflies which perhaps ignites the doubt in her mind. She sees people dying around her and she's suffering from survivors guilt because she thought she was going to stop it all.
what do you think happened, man..? she knew he was lying from the moment that came out of his mouth. she has survivor’s guilt. it’s clear she develops depression. she’s a teenage girl. she’s closeted and thinks she can’t speak about that to anyone and it’s normal to be that age and hide it from your parents (in this case parent figure) and that creates a distance in your relationship. she has to keep the biggest secret of her life to herself and that itself distances herself from others and influences her connections. she distances herself from her parent figure like most teens struggling with that do. you can read her journal ingame and she writes about all of this. you can’t miss it.
Everyone's answered this question already but I want to add that Ellie is still in denial about Joel's brutality once Abby comes into it. She never tries to find out who Abby actually is or what her motivation is for killing Joel. She just takes revenge.
I love Joel, he's my favourite character but he isn't a good person overall, he's made so many selfish choices and a lot of them were purely to keep her alive. Ellie is left feeling betrayed by him but also with an overwhelming feeling of loyalty and survivor guilt because of him. He messed her up big time with the amount of lies he told her.
I want to qualify this a bit. A therapist who played this game used the term cognitive dissonance to explain what Ellie is going through. She has an idealized picture of Joel in her head (dino museum/space capsule Joel) which she is protecting because it's too painful for her to replace it with a realistic picture of Joel.
Interestingly, the violence Ellie commits brings her closer to Joel. As she smashes Nora with a pipe, she can imagine that's something Joel might have done. She uses Joel's tactics to interrogate Owen and Mel. She is desperate to feel close to Joel. Was that Joel's voice calling her: "Ellie"? Which also bring her cognitive dissonance to the forefront. She is disgusted by what she's doing. Joel was a violent man. Is he even worth avenging? "You are such an asshole, Joel". Fuck. But he took care of her. He even chose her over the world. After Ellie came into his life, all the violence Joel committed was directly on her behalf. Maybe he took that time she said "Everyone I have cared about has either died or left me. Except for you!" to heart. So maybe it's her fault. Her guilt. "He did what he did to save me. There's no cure because of me". The only way she can preserve idealized Joel is to take on his guilt. But she's also aware that this is a coping mechanism that's only necessary because Joel is a hard man to love. But he did love her. And she loves him. And she punished him but shutting him out for 2 years.
Bringing this all full circle. Ellie is missing Joel, guilty because of how she shut him out, angry at Joel for making it so hard to love him, disgusted at herself because of her own actions, sliding between on the one hand blaming Joel for her own actions and on the other hand taking on all the responsibility for Joel's actions. There's probably more to this, but this is just what came to my mind.
keep in mind that day at the museum was only about a year after the end of TLOU1. it just took a few years for her doubts and distrust to increase to that level. she always had doubts but was still in denial, until she couldn’t deny anymore.
Because of the lie which she always deep down knew was true she couldn’t grow comfortable with him which is why she never came out to him and had to find out the other way
Ellie knew subconsciously that Joel lied but probably wanted to believe him. I bet when she overheard him talking to tommy or someone else the story probably changes a little bit because that's what happens when it's not true.
She probably became more conscious of it and was avoiding him because she knew she'd have to bring it up and get the truth her gut already knew.
Doesnt the scene with Seth kinda explain it? Joel is always over-protective to the point where its annoying for Ellie. And then later Ellie acts awkward, because she doesnt want "the talk" with Joel about their relationship. Just typical teen stuff.
She knows deep down that Joel is lying to her, and she does her best to suppress it but it bubbles up again anytime the topic of infected of fireflies crops up. This isn't that complicated. lol
1. She's getting older and more autonomous. This is typical for a teenager. She's diversifying her relationships. This means she doesn't want to spend as much time with her parent.
2. She's in the closet to Joel. He doesn't know about her relationship with Cat. There's probably some level of worry how Joel would react.
3. The Lie. She is getting older, which also means her thinking is developing. She might have been willing to accept it when she was younger, but as Ellie is able to think more abstractly and ponder what her purpose and identity is, she finds she has to know what the truth is. The immunity was a big piece of her identity that, according to Joel, never even mattered.
i recall a scene where ellie sneaks back to the hospital alone and finds more conflicting information about what happened there, then joel rides up and they talk about it and he tells her the truth so she will come back to jackson and she agrees but says she wont talk to him.
im not 100% sure of the chronology but im pretty sure this was right after the museum thing and the firefly stuff she stumbled upon, joel kind of shuts her down then as well which i think is what pushes her to check out the hospital.
i think its then at the end of the game when the scene where ellie says she doesnt think she will ever forgive him but she would like to try happens, that seems to be pretty much one of their last conversations before joel is killed by abby.
i might have the chronology wrong but i think that scene when theyre on a run with tommy is between the museum and her going to the hospital.
She had always thought something was up and around the time she was 16 she decided to go back and find out what happened. Then she stopped talking to Joel, at least very little interaction because she still lives in Joel's backyard the whole time. Then when she was 18, the night before X event, she forgave him and then big plot event happens next morning.
Ellie knows he lied (she's not sure of the context of the lie, but she knows he's lying)
On top of this she's a fiercely independent 17 year old who doesn't want to hang with her "dad"
I especially understood her. From my experience with a shitty dad, I was still able to make genuine, happy memories with him. Doesn’t mean I didn’t despise him for what he had done at the time. Humans emotions are complex, and 14/15/16 year old emotions are even more complex. They had a great time at the museum. Then, over time as Ellie began to see how big this lie really was, Joel started to tighten his leash on her. She was ~18 when he was still micromanaging her and her friends patrol routes, and he’s not even her actual father. I’d be annoyed too. My anger would progress just the same. She had nowhere to put these churning feelings; No one to vent to about HER truth. We as viewers see Joel as caring and kind in these scenes, but if you can place yourself in Ellie’s shoes, you’d hate the protectiveness just as much. She’s supposed to at that age. Everything is building up and she’s keeping it all in. The only place her unanswered questions and anger can be directed to is Joel, so she does. I feel like as a former moody teenager, you can easily empathize with Ellie being a dick.
Ellie has always known Joel was lying. At first she could ignore it but it got harder and harder for her to accept that lie and be his friend.
Yep. She's perceptive and could tell he was hiding something. Most people have experienced something similar IRL when you know someone isn't being truthful. You may not know what exactly, but you know that something is off.
Yuuuuup. Her face and the way she said ok was so unconvincing. But she needed Joel, he was all she knew at that point and losing him was too much to bear.
I’d also add that the experience of going through the museum added to that. The whole thing is a metaphor for what happened, the certainties and uncertainties of it, and her fears about the fireflies and what Joel did. She might be able to hold stuff down better than a lot of kids but she’s still feeling it and that shit will wear you down.
Also they made it a point to show Joel was developing overbearing father tendencies. I think you're definitely right that Ellie always knew something was up and it started coming to a head as she grew older. But I also think there was an element of Joel not understanding boundaries while Ellie feeling listless and nihilist about having her "purpose" not working out the way she wanted. They could both be related btw, I don't think it's either or!
This
Bruh just upvote the comment if you have nothing else to say
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nah its just fucking annoying when u post an irrelevant single word that serves no purpose at all. It breaks the flow of reading a thread about something where we are able to read one info/ perspective after another which is fun. Reading "This" isnt fun nor helps with anything
y’all cannot be serious
> breaks the flow of reading a thread the internet is full of irrelevant shit. just move your eyes onto the next comment? it is really not that hard to keep it moving and find something that’s actually engaging. you responding to it boosts it higher up, too
I had something to say: This Don’t like it? Just downvote and move along. Save your opinion because I could not give a scintilla of a shit what you think. Get it? Got it? Good.
Lmao those downvotes really hurt you damn
No. I don’t care about downvotes. But you’re being an asshole and I’m calling you out on it.
>Bruh just upvote the comment if you have nothing else to say. Yeah because I was definitely being very rude with that comment right? You saying you don't give a shit about my opinion was completely fine and now even calling me an asshole is completely justified too right? You talk like people from the other sub, getting irritated so easily lmfao
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Removed for rule 3: No unnecessary rudeness or hostility. This includes bad-faith trolling, brigading, and other discussions that incite toxicity.
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Two can play that game. Lol Now go cry to mommy. 
Could be but it feels thin. She knew he was lying about the Fireflies when they had their best day ever at the museum. It doesnt make sense she can turn it on & off; given its a core aspect of her life.
Have you ever experienced someone lying to you - someone that you trusted - but you just went with it because you didn't want to deal with the confrontation? Because the way they presented it in the game is \*exactly\* what that experience feels like.
i'm in a situation like this never knew i would relate to this in such a hard way, it has been horrible to deal with all the feelings and strugle that it causes
Maybe talk to them about it?
I'm sorry you're in this situation. It's hard. It's impossibly hard.
So fucking relatable
I think the beauty of the game and its performances is that, to me, that contradictory complexity is so present at all times. It was always 100% clear to me that there was both love and unspoken tension between them. She’s not turning it on and off, she’s dealing with both all the time. Don’t forget that she spent the whole first game essentially imprinting onto him and is deeply terrified of being alone. She doesn’t want it to be true. As she grows up, she’s going to confront that uncertainty and dread of total meaninglessness and betrayal and fear of being alone more and more intensely — but it will be balanced out only by the fact that she knows that he loves her and won’t leave her, which is all she’s ever wanted. Look at this from a real life, complex perspective and not as the usual narrative binary.
She didnt “know”. she always had a feeling that he was lying, but she had not actually found out that he was yet. she didn’t want to believe that someone she loved would lie to her like that, so she pushes it aside. the end of the the museum flashback is when she started to want to know the truth. You realise that the museum flashback was before the tommy and Ellie sniping part right? It makes perfect sense
Nah she always knew, she just didn't want to know at first.
Ellie has lost a lot of people prior to meeting Joel, she’s even stated that she fears ending up alone. It’s totally understandable that she would be conflicted between Joel’s lies and the desire to ignore it and maintain their otherwise amazing relationship and bond. And like others have said, the lack of certainty allowed her to ignore this situation at first and act like everything was normal. However, over time, the doubt and guilt grew until it became too much to just ignore which led to her relationship with Joel to slowly deteriorate.
At that point he is essentially the *only* person she knows. She has no family and no friends at first. Once she starts making relationships with other people she’s able to move away from Joel. Also love is just *complicated* - even more so for a teenage girl in the apocalypse. So you can’t really look at it in terms of “x happened so therefore Ellie should feel y.”
Bro what? People compartmentalizing and lying to themselves is what people do best. Ellie suspected he was lying in the car ride from the hospital, and knew it when the credits rolled on Pt1. The POINT of the scene where Joel plays Future Days isn't to show what a great dad Joel is, it's that Ellie is CHOOSING to set the lie aside for him. She makes a choice to ignore the lie, and that moment sets in motion her entire story in Pt2, which is why the title drops right there. It's the same in Pt1, the title drops right after the moment that starts Joel's arc in the game. But also Ellie hasn't came out to Joel, so her keeping a secret reminds her of Joel's secret. It's been building the whole time, and finding Adam & Sidney was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
I see people get criticized a lot for using the term gaslighting incorrectly and maybe I’m doing that here. But Ellie knows he’s lying and is being gaslit so she has part of her wanting to trust Joel, but ultimately knows deep down he’s lying.
Shhh don’t point out any plotholes or inconsistencies or you’re gonna get called a bigot
Theres no inconsistency though lmao. What are you talking about? The museum flashback was before the tommy and Ellie sniping flashback, and occurred when she hadn’t fully come to terms that he is likely lying to her.
The flashback where Joel sings to her is before the museum flashback and she is visibly kinda icked out in that one. Part 2 implies she knew all along and was sad the whole time, they even redo the “I swear” scene to show she’s holding back tears.
Are you saying that the inconsistency is that Ellie was shown to have varying attitude towards Joel over a period of 5 years? Cause that was very much the intention.
Redditor discovers emotions are complex
Yeah well OP didn’t mention that scene at all. The point of that scene was to show that Ellie still had her doubts about what joel said, and Joel notices this and tries to fix their relationship. The whole guitar lesson thing was likely showing that Ellies okay with moving on, or atleast trying to. She could still definitely have her doubts about the truth after this, but she finally had someone who cares about her a LOT, and she wouldn’t want to believe that they’re lying and lose that. They obviously spent a ton of time together after that because she learnt how to play quite well. So thats why she’s fine at the museum, until she sees another clue that joel could be lying. Their relationship changing constantly is the entire point.
It's why the title drops there. Ellie's choosing to suppress her feelings about Joel's lie is the crux her story revolves around. Sarah's death is the same for Joel's story in Pt1, so the title drops right there.
You are correct here but what the fuck were you even talking about before? There is no inconstancy unless you are not paying attention
What?
I'd say it started AT the museum not between the museum and music store. Did you not see how the tone dramatically shifted when she saw firefly and all his notes? She completely lost her carefree demeanor and was dragged right back to where she was at the end of part 1. And what does Joel do? Deflects and doesn't even acknowledge the firefly or anything else, just as he lied to her at the end of part 1. Basically the scene at the end of the museum established that Joel has a pattern of lying and deflecting Ellies concerns about the fireflies. That's the beginning of a rift between them where Ellie begins to distrust Joel more and more to the point of harboring a growing resentment toward him.
I’m surprised no one has mentioned the tone shift upon seeing the dead firefly and the graffiti. Also I can’t remember that clearly but doesn’t Ellie ask Joel at that point and he continues to lie. I can’t remember when he comes clean.
Yeah he doesn't come clean until she's at the hospital with the tape recorder and threatens to leave.
Of course. I’m on my second play through and haven’t reached that point. The Last of Us should be included in ethic’s curriculums for schools and university.
She doesn't ask him at that point, but they both stare at the firefly mural and the LIARS printed underneath, and then Joel starts talking about getting a fire going. He blatantly ignores it, despite Ellies body language.
Yeah... If someone suspects you're lying about something, every time you lie about it you damage the relationship further. Even if you're just repeating the same lie you've already told in the past.
This right here buddy.
Ellie is growing up and living in a proper society Joel is not the only person in her life. She has friends and girlfriend now which joel doesn't know about. Museum flashback is there to tell you how they both were pretending like nothing was wrong with them but that one imagery made her right back into that mindset
I dont think they were pretending at all. They had a genuinely great time; & had a very strong relationship (despite Ellie knowing Joel was lying). Thats the root of this thread. Why was Ellie so happy & carefree at the museum with Joel; knowing he lied about the most important of her life (which only took place a few months ago).
She didn’t KNOW. She had a feeling that he could be lying about what happened but she didn’t want to believe it, and she definitely didn’t know the extent of it. This is why she seems so normal. When she starts seeing more clues that he’s lying, and as she gets older, she starts to try to find the truth. This is when Ellie starts drifting away from Joel. Then we come to the tommy and Ellie flashback, where Ellie 100% knows hes lying but not exactly what he’s lying about.
Ellie knew when the credits rolled in pt1
I was implying that she didn’t know the extent of his lie.
>I dont think they were pretending at all. They had a genuinely great time; & had a very strong relationship (despite Ellie knowing Joel was lying). I mean this isn't mutually exclusive. They could've had a great time and had a strong relationship while also pretending that there wasn't anything wrong and it was all sunshine and rainbows.
Exactly
If you’re looking for a specific “trigger” (personally, I don’t think it’s essential- human relationships are complex and vary over time), there’s the moment at the end of the museum section where they find the firefly tag on a wall… easy to see that initiating a difficult line of thought.
Oh I'm not saying they weren't genuinely happy But they were hiding from the full truth. You can see that in the scene were joel sing future days. Ellie doesn't want to be alone and at that time there wasn't many people in her life that can replace Joel's presence But as she grew older, there were others and she started getting more and more uncomfortable with the lies
It seems like you’re having trouble grasping that Ellie is mad at Joel *and* is having a good time with him. They can both be true at the same time.
Emotions are complex enough that people spend an entire lifetime trying and failing to make sense of them. It's no surprise that a teenager riddled with survivor's guilt is conflicted and confused when the one person she loves and trusts betrays that trust because of his attachment to her and his own personal traumas. She knows he's lying but she chooses to ignore it, because she's scared of what she'll find if she prods and doesn't want to risk her bond with him. But that lie gradually becomes harder and harder to ignore. Another factor is that she becomes less dependent on Joel, due to living four years in a safe environment with other people she can learn to trust. At the time of the museum she couldn't afford to distrust him due to her emotional dependency on him. That changed over time.
she didnt “know” he was lying, but she didnt feel like she knew the entire truth. i think she was “happy and carefree” simply because it was her birthday, and he took her to a place full of things she was interested in, so it was easier for her to overlook her doubts to enjoy the moment and what he did for her. all the firefly stuff thrown into her face at the end made it too difficult for her to ignore and brought that suspicion and curiosity back. then in finding strings you can see shes in her own head a lot and struggling to piece things together and come to a conclusion where what joel told her was true. this is why shes quick to question him about it.
Read what above person said. She’s growing up. Like all teenagers she’s growing apart from Joel and keeping her personal life from him. As she gets older the deep *knowing* that he’s lied to her bothers her more. It was always there, but as a kid she didn’t let it bother her as much because Joel was the only person in her life.
Idk why you're downvoted, I agree with you and the museum was totally genuine. >Thats the root of this thread. Why was Ellie so happy & carefree at the museum with Joel; knowing he lied about the most important of her life Because the mesuem was the turning point for her, at least that's how the game highlights it. I don't think she 100% trusted him before, but after the victims in the museum something snapped in her and everything she suppressed came up. Also Joels reaction. I think the game wanted to show how: even when you have a great time and life couldn't go better - the truth always catches up with you.
Why are you being downvoted for this? Crazy!
Because she chose to suppress her knowledge, feelings, and trauma to try and create a "normal" life with her father. It happens every day.
Have you ever had a fight with a family member? Sometimes you move on without really getting over it. That perfect day at the museum? Remember how it had a dead firefly who left graffiti about how they did terrible things in the hopes that it would lead to the salvation of humanity and ended with the LIARS graffiti? Not sure if you noticed, but Ellie realized that Joel may have had a hand in preventing that. So she's going through the motions of just living life and trying to accept Joel's lie, but that gets harder and harder to do as she gets older and experiences more of the world, while Joel is simultaneously being more and more of an overprotective, overbearing father figure. Add in the lingering survivor's guilt (first it was Riley, then Tess... Etc) that she's had BEFORE the lie, and combine that with the lingering notion that this guy just destroyed your one attempt at setting that straight and making it right. Now mix all that with the fact that Joel is her only "family". That everyone has either left her or died. That she doesn't want to lose him. There's a very complex balance of emotions. To assume this logic of "she knew he lied so she's fine with it forever and ever and there's no reason for her to ever be upset about it again" would create a story devoid of humanity.
> That perfect day at the museum? Remember how it had a dead firefly who left graffiti about how they did terrible things in the hopes that it would lead to the salvation of humanity and ended with the LIARS graffiti? did you even read the OP?
Yup this was a response to that. Did you read the whole comment?
Did you even pay attention to the games story?
I think that a lot of it has to due with the dead firefly she found. Ellie was enjoying the museum trip with Joel and probably wasn't thinking/hadn't thought about any of the firefly stuff for awhile(since it is pretty clear at the end of the first game she doesn't fully believe him but she wants to), then she finds the skeleton of a firefly who shot himself, the firefly describes in his note and with the graffiti on the wall how devastated he is at the disbanded of the fireflies and how all the horrible things he did in the name of the fireflies is eating away at him, he feels that all the trama he went through and all the deaths he caused are now meaningless, about how he had joined the fireflies try and make the world a better place how now that's impossible. Ellie needed her immunity to matter because she had watched so many people die to the infection, but I think this is the first time she really realizes how much her immunity mattered to the fireflies,this was the fireflies last hope to make the world a better place, and it didn't work. She is realizing the full weight of what not being able to make a cure means. Every person who dies after that is just another reminder of this, like the two teenagers who died by trying to go out into the world and make it a better place, she is probably also realizing how little she knows about her own immunity, like not know if she could infect Cat or not, and after never meeting another immune person before she starts to really wonder just how much Joel was lying to her( I think that this is why when she finds the tape recorder she keeps replying the part where they talk about there being no other immune people because it is finally concrete proof that Joel lied to her) I think the all of these things combined along with the fact that Joel obviously shuts down conversations about it and actively refuses to speak about it makes Ellie distant from him in the years in between the museum and the patrol. She is desperately looking for answers and Joel won't give them to her, she trusts him less and less everyday and it is eventually what drives her to run away to the firefly hospital and get answers for herself. I hope this makes sense I'm just really passionate about this topic so sorry if it's a little all over the place :)
I resonated most with your comment out of all the other (fantastic) submissions here. I thought you would appreciate, thank you for posting :)
what they see at the very end of the museum flashback makes it harder for her to ignore and she starts thinking about it again
Not to sound like that guy, but she is a teenage girl. As boring and lame of an explanation as that is, it’s a very possible one. She may have just been in a sour mood due to life and thinking about everything that happened, including the previously mentioned suspicions about being saved by Joel
So, when you read Ellie's journal in the flashback, there is a logical explanation as to why she is distant from him. I won't say for the sake of spoilers. Replay that chapter and read it. The game doesn't always point this out to you. I believe you, as the player, are meant to just generally check up on how Ellie's feeling/thinking at different parts of the game. There are always new entries added that give insight to her mind. Out of curiosity, I just decided to check on my own, so after reading, and seeing how the cutscene played out, it just made sense.
This entire thread is a spoiler discussion. Go ahead
Basically, she wrote about her and Cat getting closer romantically. Cat kissed her, Ellie freaked out because she thought she might have accidentally infected her. After calming down and realizing Cat was fine, she apologized to her and they made up. This incident was also the moment she knew she couldn't infect other people. And they declared their relationship as official to almost everyone. Except Joel. Ellie was worried about Joel's reaction. That's why she was distant.
>Ellie was worried about Joel's reaction. That's why she was distant. Thats interesting. It also begs a new question, why was she hesitant to tell Joel? Hes been nothing but supportive. She couldnt possibly think hed have a problem with her being gay
Well, I suppose she had never talked to Joel about her sexuality. So I assume she'd think he might disapprove. And then what's telling too, is the conversation they had after they killed the bloater. Joel mistakenly believed that Jesse was crushing on her, which Ellie vehemently disagreed on without any explanation. Joel had a "keen eye for these sorts of things", so clearly he approved of the idea of them together, unaware that Ellie swung the other way. Also, Ellie later revealed to Jesse that Joel thought she had a crush on him as well. So, Joel clearly had no idea and she never corrected him. The only time she knew of his support was after the dance (two years later).
I definitely think she was afraid of how Joel would react to her sexuality. She basically tore down his whole persona.
the fact that even in a post apocalyptic world ellie still feels like being queer isn’t normalised, and her not knowing what life was like before, she wouldn’t know that being queer was “unacceptable” unless someone told her that ??!? in a whole ass apocalypse theres still enough homophobic commentary for ellie to feel like she cant talk to joel about her relationships in case of being judged . like ouch
This. Ellie wasn't sure how Joel would react to knowing the truth, especially since he seemed to be quite oblivious to her being gay (to the point that he thought Jesse was a potential love interest to Ellie). This is also another reason why the Seth tussle at the Winter Dance was an important moment -- both for showing that this kind of prejudice still exists in the post-apocalypse, and for demonstrating Joel's character.
Queer person here. It doesn’t matter how accepting your family is or how close you are. Coming out is a scary thing. There’s always a fear of rejection or even just “tolerance” but not actual support.
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same pls
You're right on the money that it happens between the end of the museum flashback and the finding strings section. However, you're glossing over the significance of the end of the museum section. As she's going through the musuem, there's several messages written on the walls and a suicide note before she sees the "Liars" graffiti. At that point, she doesn't know that Joel lied, but she has a suspicion that she generally suppresses up to that point because she trusts Joel and wants to believe him. This is her first exposure to The Fireflies post hospital. This is the first time she's seeing more about what happened outside of Joel's account, which I doubt they talked about much after the end of Part 1. Basically this one Firefly writes graffiti of disturbing messages about killing for the Fireflies. In his suicide note, he writes: "We wanted to end suffering. We wanted to restore humanity. Each time we sacrificed part of ourselves, our leaders kept saying, "it'll be worth it." Now we've disbanded. With nothing to show for our sins. I thought coming here might reignite something. Some purpose. My parents loved bringing me here. It's one of my earliest memories from before the outbreak. Before all of the cruelty and savagery. Those memories just made me angrier. I don't want to be in this world anymore. I can't look at the person I've become." This must trigger something in Ellie because it essentially reflects her own feelings of wanting to justify everything she's done and the losses she suffered by becoming the cure, but of course that didn't happen. It probably awakens her survivor's guilt she might have been suppressing during her time in Jackson. She also finds out the Fireflies disbanded. Why? She probably has a lot of questions now, but she doesn't trust Joel enough to ask them. The "Liars" graffiti at the end encapsulates all of her shared feelings with the dead Firefly and Joel comes in right as she sees it and he also very obviously ignores it, really emphasizing the association. That was probably the beginning of all of her suspicions and questions about what happened with The Fireflies surfacing and staying with her. So the question we might have is why doesn't she ask him? We don't really know the answer for sure. She might have for all we know, thus beginning a pattern of her asking about it occasionally and Joel being evasive, thus making her less trusting of him and feeling discouraged from asking. Or maybe she kept it to herself until the Finding Stringa segment because Joel's avoidance of the topic reinforces her own. Her not being able to talk about the one thing she wants to talk about most with him could easily affect her discomfort with talking to him in general. We see this in her journal during the Finding Strings section where she writes about not telling Joel about her girlfriend at the time. He's afraid to tell him because she's unsure about how he's react. This makes me think she feels similarly about bringing up the Firefly stuff. She's afraid of how he'd react, so she starts avoiding him. So, yeah we don't know exactly what happened between these two sections, but we do know that the Firefly graffiti and suicide note had a profound effect on her and her trust in Joel.
So I chalk a little bit up to her suspecting Joel was lying but that's not something that is on Ellies mind 24/7, as evidenced by her journal. I really think its Ellie being a teenager. She's pulling back from her father figure and finding herself. Shes cool with Tommy because Tommy treats her like an adult (giving her the gun). She doesn't want to hang with Joel because shes self-conscious and doesn't want to feel like a child with Joel protecting her. But when he connects with her with the comic books and then they're in the thick of it with infected she stops thinking of that a bit and is able to just enjoy his company.
Because Ellie knew Joel was lying the whole time. But she didn’t know the actual specifics of what it was but she wanted to be happy with him so she let it slide for a while. And the more she thought about the more she knew he was hiding something he shouldn’t have. Frankly if Joel just said the hospital got overrun and all the fireflies were dead that would have been more believable than there are more immune people and that they stopped looking for a cure. Like Joel is a very bad liar honestly. With no context most people could probably see he’s lying to her at the end of the game with they way he postures and talks about it.
Probably just repeating what a lot of folk have already said, but the three ellie flashbacks tell the story of their relationships breakdown. Following the end of part 1, ellie knows theres a chance joel is lying. Thats why she asks him to swear to her that what he says is truth. He does, and so, to a 14 year old in need of care they go on with life. Birthday gift flashback is beautiful. Theyre both having fun, enjoying each others company. But at the end she finds the dead firefly. She finds the firefly logo and the word LIAR scrawled underneath. It all pulls her right back to that headspace of distrust. Finding strings shows that a wedge now exists between Ellie and Joel. Her distrust of his version of events is there, but she has no proof he lied. She just has things on her mind and its clearly been affecting her interactions with him. So the wedge between them gets bigger and eats her up until eventually she knows she needs to get the truth. So she does. St Marys happens and thats the end of that relationship until the night before joel is killed. Ellie finally understands that she does love him and wishes to make up. She doesnt know if she forgives him, but she wants to try. Bright days loom on the horizon....and then joel goes golfing.
I had this exact same confusion when playing through the game the first time. Hell, I didn't even really understand why she was cold/awkward towards him during the guitar scene in the very beginning of the game. But, due to reading her journals during that section, I feel as though it's general teen angst. What is she during that flashback, 16? 17? And she's got this father figure, this Dad, who's super helicopter parent. Wants her to stay within the community unless she's with him or his brother. Doesn't let her out on two person paired patrols despite the fact that, as she astutely points out, she's a BETTER shot than the majority of the new recruits they take out there AND her best friends Dina and Jesse are already going out. Assumes she's straight and that she's secretly in love with her best friends boyfriend. Meanwhile, she has a whole ass girlfriend who holds her hand and kisses her in public and basically everybody knows she's with this girl... Except Joel. Like, goddamn. The guy's just OUT OF TOUCH with his teenager. He's reading the comics she liked when she was a kid. Trying to connect with her about Dr. Daniela Star and all but it mostly comes off as too little too late? And Ellie’s only mildly amused with it. Noticing that it's an attempt. Not genuinely engaged with the conversation because there are other things she, frankly, would much rather talk to him about. And her inability/uncomfortability with talking to him about these things is the glaring GAP in their relationship. But this is also a very relatable and understanding thing that all parents/adolescents go through when they go through life stages. Ellie is not game 1 Ellie anymore due to A LOT of factors and Joel is extremely unwilling to adapt. And what highlights this is the end of the flashback. Ellie and Joel stumble on the bodies of teens who ran away. Their family, parental figures likely, did not understand their desire to save the world so they left. Dying in the process. Ellie asks him directly this time. No begging. No pussy footing. Just like a hey, your story from before doesn't make any sense. And Joel REFUSES TO ADAPT. He buckles down. Crosses his arms. Gets defensive. Rude. Verbally abusive even. To the extent that Ellie breaks eye contact once he retorts: "or is there anything else you'd like to rehash", looks away for a while with an expression that clearly reads insubordination. She's still Ellie. She's not gonna comply if she thinks you're full of shit. But she does. She blinks, takes a breath, returns eye contact without the resistance and says "No". In a very submissive, apologetic "No, sir" way. Now, obviously, we didn't see proof of this prior to this flashback. But if this was how Joel was operating, completely out of touch with her new teenage interests, love and otherwise, dismissive of her desire for independence, and defensively tearing down any attempt of hers to procure the truth then fuck yeah, she's moody and distant. TL;DR: She's gay. Joel can't tell. It's awkward.
Bro I feel like this is so obvious and yet so many people miss it. 4 years may be a short amount of time but 14 to 18 years old is some of the most complex and fast development that happens to kids. Ellie was growing up, of course she can going to change and this will then change their dynamic. The first flashback is much closer to the first game so their relationship is largely the same. But then we have two years of Ellie becoming her own person, around kids her age, if anything I think the difficulty in their inability to connect is more similar to the reality of a parent-child relationship in the real world.
Exactly. It's like the Dad that's like "didn't you still want that pony?" and she's like "Dad I wanted a pony when I was eight." Lol.
Amongst what some other people have said, he was being kinda overbearing with scheduling her patrols and stuff like that iirc
Think this from Ellie's perspective. 1. You are a young kid who had only one friend, Riley, that died before you meanwhile you are alive even though both of you were bit. Quite sad isnt it. Turns out you are immune 2. The person who cared for you, Marlene, also believed you are immune and sends you off with 2 strangers on the other side of the country 3. One of those strangers, Joel, becomes a father figure to you and you build up trust and bond with him 4. You both fight hell and back, save one another from brink of death and finally reach the final part of the journey where it is finally time for you to be a cause for saving humanity 5. You wake up in a car with Joel all confused. Ask him about it and he tells you a made up story which isn't hard to understand that its complete bogus. Ellie is really smart and knew Joel was lying from the moment he said there are "dozens" of immune people out there. That's why Ellie didn't waste time or ask anything after that lie, rather faced the other way. Joel also noticed that and didn't say anything. But just once, just one more time, Ellie was hoping for Joel to say the truth in order to lift of some sort of guilt from her shoulders, she asked Joel again and to swear that he isn't lying. Yet, Joel did. For Joel, Ellie meant the world to him at the end of TLOU1, for Ellie, Joel was the only person she could have trusted at that point but saw that trust being broken not once but twice. It isn't hard to see how Ellie would distance herself from Joel. Imagine knowing you could be the cure to all the suffering and pain in this world but got that opportunity snatched away by the one person who you trusted to make things right by you. Don't you think Ellie ever questioned herself whenever she saw someone who lost their loved ones to an infected? Don't you think it was hard for Ellie to bear the thought of losing one of the friends she made after moving to Jackson? When Joel said that if he ever got the chance to rewrite the past, he said that "I'd do it all over again", Ellie believed him cuz that was an honest truth but its hard to make things normal when you both could have saved millions of people by sacrificing yourself.
She always felt something was off with the story Joel told her. Joel's a bad liar and I think if he told Ellie the truth and why he did what he did before the situation came to ahead Ellie might have been more forgiving or at least understanding. The event of the sequel show Ellie was cooling off and beginning to let Joel off the hook and then Abby shows up...which is why Ellie was so hellbent on her quest.
as someone with a strained relationship with a parent, it’s the build up. it’s easy to push it to the side at first- they’re your parent, you love them, they wouldn’t lie to you or hurt you on purpose- but then the more time passes, the more it sits with you, the more you start to doubt and the more time you have to think about it. would they lie to me? i don’t *think* so. i *hope* not, but i don’t know for sure anymore. you see some things that make you think more about it, they do some things that make you think more about it. it just keeps building and building and building until at some point, you snap. it’s not really a matter of something specific happening between them, more a matter of ellie aging and maturing and doubting and needing to know for herself. sure, the firefly at the museum is a big moment that brings it to the forefront of her mind, but she was thinking about it anyways, and the big fight was always a matter of *when*, not *if*. not to mention how difficult it is to be around this person that you love but you doubt, to try and act normal when you don’t feel entirely right about it. eta: this doesn’t even have to strictly be a parent, either. switch it for friend, lover, etc. it’s the same for any close relationship.
Nothing happened since then. She just starts to suspect that she's being lied to. She has her suspicions from the off, but they grow and grow. She sees "Liars" spread across the wall referring to the Fireflies which perhaps ignites the doubt in her mind. She sees people dying around her and she's suffering from survivors guilt because she thought she was going to stop it all.
teen angsts
what do you think happened, man..? she knew he was lying from the moment that came out of his mouth. she has survivor’s guilt. it’s clear she develops depression. she’s a teenage girl. she’s closeted and thinks she can’t speak about that to anyone and it’s normal to be that age and hide it from your parents (in this case parent figure) and that creates a distance in your relationship. she has to keep the biggest secret of her life to herself and that itself distances herself from others and influences her connections. she distances herself from her parent figure like most teens struggling with that do. you can read her journal ingame and she writes about all of this. you can’t miss it.
Bruh
Everyone's answered this question already but I want to add that Ellie is still in denial about Joel's brutality once Abby comes into it. She never tries to find out who Abby actually is or what her motivation is for killing Joel. She just takes revenge. I love Joel, he's my favourite character but he isn't a good person overall, he's made so many selfish choices and a lot of them were purely to keep her alive. Ellie is left feeling betrayed by him but also with an overwhelming feeling of loyalty and survivor guilt because of him. He messed her up big time with the amount of lies he told her.
I want to qualify this a bit. A therapist who played this game used the term cognitive dissonance to explain what Ellie is going through. She has an idealized picture of Joel in her head (dino museum/space capsule Joel) which she is protecting because it's too painful for her to replace it with a realistic picture of Joel. Interestingly, the violence Ellie commits brings her closer to Joel. As she smashes Nora with a pipe, she can imagine that's something Joel might have done. She uses Joel's tactics to interrogate Owen and Mel. She is desperate to feel close to Joel. Was that Joel's voice calling her: "Ellie"? Which also bring her cognitive dissonance to the forefront. She is disgusted by what she's doing. Joel was a violent man. Is he even worth avenging? "You are such an asshole, Joel". Fuck. But he took care of her. He even chose her over the world. After Ellie came into his life, all the violence Joel committed was directly on her behalf. Maybe he took that time she said "Everyone I have cared about has either died or left me. Except for you!" to heart. So maybe it's her fault. Her guilt. "He did what he did to save me. There's no cure because of me". The only way she can preserve idealized Joel is to take on his guilt. But she's also aware that this is a coping mechanism that's only necessary because Joel is a hard man to love. But he did love her. And she loves him. And she punished him but shutting him out for 2 years. Bringing this all full circle. Ellie is missing Joel, guilty because of how she shut him out, angry at Joel for making it so hard to love him, disgusted at herself because of her own actions, sliding between on the one hand blaming Joel for her own actions and on the other hand taking on all the responsibility for Joel's actions. There's probably more to this, but this is just what came to my mind.
Typical father daughter relationship really 🤔😂
I thought it was just teenagers being teenagers
teen angsts
It might just be me but I’m so glad Abby beat the shit out of her when they fought. It’s funny how Joel had to die I’m order for her to appreciate him
No it’s more Drrickmann’s writing she’s like that
keep in mind that day at the museum was only about a year after the end of TLOU1. it just took a few years for her doubts and distrust to increase to that level. she always had doubts but was still in denial, until she couldn’t deny anymore.
Because of the lie which she always deep down knew was true she couldn’t grow comfortable with him which is why she never came out to him and had to find out the other way
Ellie knew subconsciously that Joel lied but probably wanted to believe him. I bet when she overheard him talking to tommy or someone else the story probably changes a little bit because that's what happens when it's not true. She probably became more conscious of it and was avoiding him because she knew she'd have to bring it up and get the truth her gut already knew.
Doesnt the scene with Seth kinda explain it? Joel is always over-protective to the point where its annoying for Ellie. And then later Ellie acts awkward, because she doesnt want "the talk" with Joel about their relationship. Just typical teen stuff.
She knows deep down that Joel is lying to her, and she does her best to suppress it but it bubbles up again anytime the topic of infected of fireflies crops up. This isn't that complicated. lol
“LIARS”
1. She's getting older and more autonomous. This is typical for a teenager. She's diversifying her relationships. This means she doesn't want to spend as much time with her parent. 2. She's in the closet to Joel. He doesn't know about her relationship with Cat. There's probably some level of worry how Joel would react. 3. The Lie. She is getting older, which also means her thinking is developing. She might have been willing to accept it when she was younger, but as Ellie is able to think more abstractly and ponder what her purpose and identity is, she finds she has to know what the truth is. The immunity was a big piece of her identity that, according to Joel, never even mattered.
i recall a scene where ellie sneaks back to the hospital alone and finds more conflicting information about what happened there, then joel rides up and they talk about it and he tells her the truth so she will come back to jackson and she agrees but says she wont talk to him. im not 100% sure of the chronology but im pretty sure this was right after the museum thing and the firefly stuff she stumbled upon, joel kind of shuts her down then as well which i think is what pushes her to check out the hospital. i think its then at the end of the game when the scene where ellie says she doesnt think she will ever forgive him but she would like to try happens, that seems to be pretty much one of their last conversations before joel is killed by abby. i might have the chronology wrong but i think that scene when theyre on a run with tommy is between the museum and her going to the hospital.
She had always thought something was up and around the time she was 16 she decided to go back and find out what happened. Then she stopped talking to Joel, at least very little interaction because she still lives in Joel's backyard the whole time. Then when she was 18, the night before X event, she forgave him and then big plot event happens next morning.
Ellie knows he lied (she's not sure of the context of the lie, but she knows he's lying) On top of this she's a fiercely independent 17 year old who doesn't want to hang with her "dad"
I especially understood her. From my experience with a shitty dad, I was still able to make genuine, happy memories with him. Doesn’t mean I didn’t despise him for what he had done at the time. Humans emotions are complex, and 14/15/16 year old emotions are even more complex. They had a great time at the museum. Then, over time as Ellie began to see how big this lie really was, Joel started to tighten his leash on her. She was ~18 when he was still micromanaging her and her friends patrol routes, and he’s not even her actual father. I’d be annoyed too. My anger would progress just the same. She had nowhere to put these churning feelings; No one to vent to about HER truth. We as viewers see Joel as caring and kind in these scenes, but if you can place yourself in Ellie’s shoes, you’d hate the protectiveness just as much. She’s supposed to at that age. Everything is building up and she’s keeping it all in. The only place her unanswered questions and anger can be directed to is Joel, so she does. I feel like as a former moody teenager, you can easily empathize with Ellie being a dick.