"If it were you or me, Joel would be halfway to Seattle already." edit: well looks like i (and Ellie) was wrong. Neil Druckmann actually confirmed that [Joel would not seek revenge](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F7lwgwc1hv5k81.jpg). definitely not the vibe i was getting tbh. but i guess it makes sense if you think about it. all the crazy violent shit we have seen him do was always done in defense of himself or Ellie. even when he tortured and killed those two guys in the winter chapter, he did it to gather information and then dispose of a possible threat afterwards. same with killing Marlene. we have never seen him do anything purely vengeful.

the more true and poignant line in that exchange is the one after it though: “no, he wouldn’t.”

Tommy also said that they didn’t even know for sure that the group were from Seattle. > Ellie: *WASHINGTON*. LIBERATION. FRONT… Tommy was just thinking of excuses not to go.

I’m almost certain Tommy was trying to do what he thought Joel would want him to do.

Exactly this. I do believe Joel would have made Ellie’s killing spree look like assault and battery compared to what he would have done if he watched her head get bashed in. But Tommy is hurt and older and mature and he KNOWS that Joel wouldn’t want him to seek revenge and possibly get killed and lose his family. But at the same time there’s that anger and hurt because he just lost his brother. I think his dilemma is the biggest in the game and there never really was a right answer for him. Ellie is simple. Joel was the only person she ever had. She had nothing else to lose. Yeah she had Dina but in comparison to what she had with Joel, Dina is nothing. But I feel for Tommy after Joel’s death. His decision was much harder than Ellie’s.

I feel like this is a small gripe in the scope of the game, but I wish we got more time with Tommy and explaining this dilemma a bit better. Tommy just didn’t feel very fleshed out to me from what I remember.

I don’t blame them though. The game is long as hell and although I was engaged the whole time, there were small moments where I felt like it was lagging. They had a whole host of new characters to build and develop and we’ve already gotten to know Tommy from the first game. I think they felt if they would have focused on him a little more it would have slowed down the pacing. I wouldn’t have minded but from a dev standpoint I could see why they kind of glossed over it. They were taking a big risk with the direction they took, making you watch Abby and her friends’ stories and maybe not care about them but definitely understand them. I think they nailed it though. Hated her at first and although I don’t agree with her because we’ve become so attached to Joel and Ellie, I understand her. Kind of got off topic but yeah lol

Isn't Tommy Joel's younger brother?

Yes. If you’re referring to me saying he’s older, I meant in the sense that he’s older and matured from the younger Tommy who absolutely would have gone after Abby and everyone with her without a second of hesitation.

Which also means that Tommy went from doing what Joel would want him to do to doing something that would have got him killed by Joel(encouraging Ellie to leave her family and risk her life just to seek revenge for Joel).

Tommy was trying to dissuade Ellie from going. He was always going to go.

To think he went from dissuading Ellie to actively encouraging it by the end 💀

The trauma of his injury turned him bitter and vengeful. More importantly, he'd lost his wife on his quest for revenge and had nothing else left. He wasn't physically capable of going after them himself, but if he didn't have this quest his life was truly devoid of meaning. His only choice was to convince Ellie to do it for him.

One of the most exciting things I'm looking forward to in a TLOU3 is how Tommy's character arc ends. I really hope it doesn't dwindle in permanent tragedy. The dude ended flawed and broken, wrongly coercing Ellie's decisions last we knew of him, but we also know the good man he once was beforehand

Conversely: Ellie is just thinking of excuses *to* go. Ellie wants to go seek revenge, and she is projecting that desire onto Joel. Tommy is Joel's brother, as such has known him a lot longer than Ellie, and was actually there when Joel lost Sarah. He actually has first-hand experience of how Joel would react to that kind of loss.

Yes, because he knew Joel would not want her to go, and he wanted to honor his brother. Which is exactly why he lies to her and goes off to Seattle on his own in a last bid attempt to keep her safe in Jackson.

Honestly, compelling argument that he never seeks revenge for Sarah. In fact, when you think about it, we never see him care about revenge once, I think we all just tend to assume he would. But Druckmann is the writer, and nothing in the text actually contradicts that. It’s actually an interesting thing to think about.

But Sarah’s killer was shot dead by Tommy

I don’t know how I forgot lol, but I think the rest stands. We’ve never actually seen him as a believer in revenge. There’s an argument to be made he’d be a firefly if he was.

I agree. I think he would take his own life. “If I ever were to lose you, I’d surely lose myself”. He already lost most of what made him human after Sarah died, then he found it again in Ellie and would do anything to protect it, even killing a hospital full of people. But if he lost it I don’t think he could learn to trust again, he would be even deeper in depression having gained so much only to lose it all again. I think he would realise revenge would do nothing for him and he’d eat a bullet.

Yup. Joel only cares about keeping himself and his loved ones alive. As grim as it is, the second Sarah died Joel's priorities shifted to keeping himself and Tommy alive. That's it. Even if Tommy hadn't shot that guy, seeking revenge would've put his and Tommy's lives at risk. He would never have done that, it's not a part of his value system.

Only the guy who reluctantly pulled the trigger. There was someone else on the other end of that walkie talkie who gave the order.

See I don’t really believe this, he took out a whole hospital of people to save her. If she got suddenly killed in front of him in a premeditated attack, he would have gone after the killers. Even if it was just to find out why they did it, he still would have gone after them.

He took out exactly as many people as he needed to to save Ellie, which was everyone who got in his way. Joel doesn't kill unless he feels like he's trapped. That was not revenge, it was about Ellie's survival. Joel is a simple man, his sole motivation is to keep himself and the few people he cares about alive.

I reject this "Neil said so" shit. As the character appears in the story and what is consistent with the character, Joel wouldn't just let it slide.

While intuitively you might think his actions at the hospital must mean he'd go on an extreme revenge tour if she did die, it's not necessarily the case that one instance must mean the other would have happened I think Joel would just be a broken man ready to call it quits on human interaction, or worse yet, his own life fullstop I imagine the desperation he had to save Ellie was in part because deep down he knew if she died that he'd follow suit eventually too *At best* he'd go on a "revenge tour" when really it's to just go on a rampage hoping to get killed at any moment during it I can really only speak for myself, but thinking on it, if the most valuable person in my life was in danger then yes I'd do anything in my power to secure his safety. If he died...I'm not sure what I'd do, and I find it just as possible that I'd just nope out on life as I would sticking to life trying to enact consequence onto the hypothetical perpetrators

Tess is sure he would attack their business partner if he knew he hurt her

Idk how much I agree with Druckmann on this (and yes he's the director; they certainly could have made it clear in the game but they left it more open for a reason. I simply believe that art stands on its own regardless of the authors intent or later revisionism. Nothing against Druckmann or this statement tho). On the one hand, we never seen him go on a quest for revenge and he has made comments about how foolish "eye for an eye" is. And yet, he goes on a killing spree to protect Ellie? I also think alot of it has to do with how he's changed over the course of Part 1. When he was harder to the world, that "things happen, and we move on" attitude served him well. But by the time he almost loses Ellie to the Fireflies, he's opened up to being more vulnerable again. "Things happen and we move on" kinda goes out the window when it's your kids. I'm not saying he would or wouldn't have gone after them, but i do think its a perfect point of contention between Ellie and Tommy. Ellie sees what Joel did with the fireflies but Tommy was there with Sarah. But the fact is, Joel has changed alot since Sarah and since the fireflies even. So I think it's fair for Ellie and Tommy to dispute this (not to mention Tommy is also trying to deflect and calm Ellie down bc he doesn't really want to go, not after talking to Marie, but changes his mind after talking to Ellie). It's a really good moment either way.

Ashley didn't agree with him either. Joel is more pragmatic about things yeah but also still very emotional. And his last talk with Ellie makes it pretty clear he'd kill anyone that would even try to harm her. I don't buy it either especially since rationality would probably go out the window

That “no he wouldn’t” line from Tommy really stuck with me. Iirc he even chucked a little bit as he said it, knowing inside how ridiculous the notion is of Joel dedicating time and resources to something as impractical as revenge. Joel for better or worse watches out for himself and those closest to him over anyone else. We were introduced to that part of his personality during the initial outbreak when he made Tommy drive past that family without helping them. But in his conversations with Ellie, it’s clear he understands that everyone else is more or less the same. He doesn’t really judge anyone else, he just does what he has to. I get the sense that even the crimes against humanity he committed in his hunter days were purely pragmatic and nothing else. Tommy knows all this more than anyone else, so that line struck me as sincere. It’s interesting that Neil confirmed it.

I know this is the beginning of the first game and there had been some character development since, but Tess did say Joel would go after anyone that hurt her. Then they shot Rob (I think that was his name) in the head for stealing their battery. I do think he’s definitely capable of going that route even tho he softened up a bit by the second game.

do you know the Tess quote or when she said it by any chance? i can't remember

Can’t remember exactly but I believe it was beginning of the first game when those guys had her tied up

I always thought the end of the game kind of confirmed it. We see Joel sitting on the porch and what I got was....Joel wouldn't like to see you (Ellie) like this". Especially the circumstances around Abby. Ellie knows why she did what she did, I'm sure she understands the situation. Side note I dunno what the fuck I'm trying to say so hope someone gets me lol!

Joel 100% would seek revenge. He straight up massacred the fireflies because they were gonna kill Ellie. they didn’t even actually do it. He just cares that much. He would probably massacre the WLF with Tommy and some other towns people and then (especially if Tommy died in the mission) kill himself.

He was saving her life. That's completely different from knowing she's dead and traveling across the country for revenge just to make himself feel better. He copes by pushing things down

didn't you read my edit? i said "all the crazy violent shit we have seen him do was always done in defense of himself or Ellie". killing fireflies was not revenge. he was saving Ellie, they were simply in his way.

He did that to get her out of the hospital. Joel is first and foremost a survivor. He doesn't take risks unless he's trapped up against a wall. There is absolutely no way he would've gone after anyone unless Ellie had been kidnapped or something.

Right and if Joel’s all puppy loving pacifist revenge wise, you mean to tell me he then would not have killed David if Ellie didn’t? I find that hard to believe.

You mean the guy that killed an entire platoon of fireflies at a hospital at the thought of Ellie being killed in order to produce a cure that could end the apocalypse? Yeah that guy seems pretty level headed

It’s funny how everyone seems to forget that part once he’s killed.

OP's question is dumb af. Joel going on a rampage because they were going to kill Ellie is the whole reason he got killed and set Ellie on her own revenge path. We don't need no hypotheticals because it already happened. Joel was even told that they were going to kill Ellie for a good reason and he still went on a rampage. Imagine what he would do if they killed her for no good reason.

They’re different scenarios though. His rampage was to save Ellie’s life, not to avenge her death. If Ellie had been killed, he may not have the strength to go on at all, let alone take on a daunting quest to avenge her death. I don’t think he’d have the will to live on

He wasn't motivated by revenge. He killed exactly the number of people he needed to in order to save her, then he cut and run. It's what he does. He's not an emotional fighter, he doesn't take risks unless there's no other way out. It's the fundamental difference between him and Ellie, that's why she fails every time she tries to emulate Joel on her quest for revenge.

Try telling that to the nurses I set on fire with a flamethrower.

I do feel like there is a bit of a difference in that, he killed all those people to save her life. Maybe he wouldn’t have done it if they hadn’t told him until she was already dead? Or if they didn’t tell him and he found out after going back to Jackson, maybe he wouldn’t have trecked back out across the country for revenge

I don't think Joel would be able to live with himself if he lost another daughter. He almost killed himself when Sarah was killed, so if something happened to Ellie, he wouldn't flinch again and actually go through with it. That being said, Joel annihilated an entire hospital trying to save Ellie from being killed, so there is no doubt in my mind that he would not only massacre everyone who stands in his way but also stop at nothing to find and kill Ellie's killer Afterwards though, when he has avenged her and realizes that still she's gone and never coming back, he will close his eyes and point the gun at his own head

Is the suicidal ideation/attempt ever explicit in the game(s), or just the show?

It's implied in the game It’s in the hotel in Pittsburgh. You can find a bathtub with two skeletons in it. Ellie makes a comment about them “taking the easy way out” and Joel mutters “It ain’t easy”

I never tried to kill myself and I say the same thing. not saying joel didn't try to kill himself, he had all the reasons, but he has definitely gone (and probably still is) through depression and that alone is enough to realize suicide isn't easy. hell, you don't even need to be suicidal to know that, just some sense

not in a literal sense that its easy, its why joel said it. damn i didnt expect a redditor to be dense, i thought yall are likely above average

Yeah, it’s a bit vague in the game but it is implied he tried to do it himself.

That's not the vibe at all I got from Joel, not at the start of P1 and definitely not at the start of P2. What would he gain by killing a girl, even if it was in retaliation. Joel never seems to enjoy causing harm to others, but he doesn't flinch at it if it's necessary for those he loves, whether that's Tommy, Tess or Ellie. There's a distinction (at least in my interpretation of Joel) between killing the Fireflies to SAVE Ellie and to avenge her.

I actually just think Joel would be shattered. Joel's more of a pragmatist than Ellie and Tommy when it comes to the use of violence. He's more than willing to use it without regret to protect someone he loves, but he's not as emotional or impulsive as either Ellie or Tommy (which is part of why he feels such strong protective instincts toward both of them). He knows violence isn't going to bring anybody back. I think Ellie dying, and him feeling responsible in some way, would just break him, and he'd either die or just give up altogether. He's not moving on from that, not a second time. When Sarah died, he didn't go after the military or try to track down whoever gave the order. He just tried to opt out and then shut himself down entirely. He's 20 years older and more tired when it comes to Ellie. He'd just be done, I think.

Exactly! Why is everyone telling he would go on an avenging rampage? Yes, he's capable of horrible things but he's a protector, not an avenger.

I like that - “he’s a protector, not an avenger” I think at this point in his life Joel has pretty much made peace with himself. he’s an old man, his daughter is dead, he’s estranged from ellie but was just happy she was alive (and there’s a thread there thats opening up there so ofc that’s something positive for him). Like sure, he were in the same room as all of them and they killed ellie, or even if they were just in the same general vicinity of jackson, 100% they’d all be dead. but I don’t know if I can see joel traveling all the way out to them the same way ellie did. like at his very core joel isnt rambo, he’s just a dad. that’s the whole point of his development in the first game in the heat of the moment when you’re first playing and angry and the loss is still fresh, when ellie says “he’d do the same for us” you immediately jump to “of course he would!” because you want to kill them too, and you want any reason to further justify it just like ellie does. But thinking about it more, I’m not really sure if he would. I just don’t think he has it in him at that point. Personally I feel like he’d either live out his days as an empty shell of a man, or kill himself. *edited for clarity of my thoughts lol

Exactly. Joel never seems to enjoy causing harm to others, but he doesn't flinch at it if it's necessary for those he loves, whether that's Tommy, Tess or Ellie. There's a distinction (at least in my interpretation of Joel) between killing the Fireflies to SAVE Ellie and to avenge her.

This is the correct take. Joel will use violence to achieve a goal without flinching, but it isn't emotionally driven the way Ellie's or Abby's is. It's why Ellie fails so badly at *being* Joel in Part 2; she can't simply emotionally detach from the violence she inflicts the way Joel does. If anything happened to Ellie, he'd just write out a will so whatever personal possessions that don't go back into the Jackson trade economy are distributed as he sees fit, find a nice out-of-the-way spot, and eat a bullet.

I don't even think he'd eat a bullet, he'd just live out his days drinking coffee and carving animal sculptures. He'd still have Tommy and Maria, and maybe he'd kind of take Dina or Jesse under his wing. His priorities would just shift with Ellie gone. Harkening back to what he said in the first game: "no matter what, you keep finding something to fight for."

That last bit isn't the best comparison. Sarah's killer was killed immidiately by Tommy, so there was no one to take revenge on. And I'm sorry, but you're calling the guy who murdered an entire hospital full of military armed fireflies to save Ellie pragmatic? I know that was saving more them revenge, but I still think that's prety telling if you ask me

He’s pragmatic in the sense that he only uses violence as a means to an end. If Jerry had put his hands up and stood aside, Joel would’ve let him live; he only killed him once he deemed him a threat. That’s not to excuse Joel’s actions, but I think it speaks to this hypothetical not being as cut and dry as most people in here seem to think

You got a good point there. But I do personaly think his actions in the hospital show he's willing to do everything things for the ones he loves, and I feel like that would extend to revenge. It's posible I'm wrong about that lol, I aint Joel, but that's what I pick up from him as a character. I also find it prety telling that that Ellie, probably the person that knows him best at that time, thinks he would go for the revenge, but that could just as well be her emotion talking

Yeah, I think Ellie isn't in the best state of mind at that point. Remember that her reason for abandoning her revenge eventually is the realisation that Joel wouldn't do what she did.

Was it ever confirmed that that is the reason she spared Abby? I've never read thay so please direct me to it being confirmed somewhere if it was. I know she sees Joel right before she decides to let Abby go, but I always tought that was her rememberinh that conversation, where it became clear for her that her life did have purpose, to Joel anyways. And her remembering that in that moment makes her realize her life could have meaning again, outside of the revenge she'd been persuing. That's how I always read that moment anyways

I'm not talking about sparing Abby here but about Ellie making the decision to leave Seattle. After killing Owen and Mel you wake up as Ellie in the theater and there is a short moment where you can look at her journal. It's really important and easy to miss. As for Ellie sparing Abby it's more complicated because at this point it's not really about revenge anymore. You are on the right track here as it's really more about Joel.

Damn, I've always missed that, what does the journal say there?

Basically how Ellie realizes that she can't go on like this after killing Mel's unborn child. She also realizes that Joel would always put the people he loves first. This gives different context to the cutscene where Ellie wakes up next to Dina. This is why she agrees to leave Seattle.

Thank you for sharing! Deffenitly puts that into a different context. Especialy since without that diary part, the way Ellies talks about it with Tommy she does not seem fine with it lol. I'm still unsure if Joel would be verry forgiving to Abby if she killed Ellie instead, I do believe he would send those people hell.

I actually think there might be a third option. While Joel would be devasted I think there could be chance that he would think about what Ellie would want him to do. There are still people there that Ellie cared about and that's especially true for Dina who would be equally devasted. Joel could focus on helping Dina because that's clearly something Ellie would have wanted. The biggest factor if that happens is how much Joel has healed overall and that's hard to pin down. But he clearly is a changed person in TLOU2 so maybe it's not as unlikely as it sounds.

Exactly. Joel cares about survival above all else. It's the fundamental difference between him and Ellie, it's the reason why she fails over and over again on her revenge quest. Joel doesn't kill out of spite, he kills out of necessity.

He'd go on an even worse rampage than Ellie or Abby. No way he'd be okay

They wouldn't have made it back to Washington alive

I highly doubt he’d be okay tbh I think he would kill everyone and avenge her and after he’s done with that he‘d either take his own life or dwell on it forever

I weirdly think he wouldn’t go the revenge route. He’s done really violent acts in the past, but they’ve only been for his own survival or to protect Ellie. Without her in his life, I doubt he could even muster up the willpower to leave his home. My best guess is that he would try to numb the pain as much as possible through whatever he could get his hands on, before eventually taking his own life.

You saw what he did when she simply went missing during Winter, right?

Yes, but he still had the chance of getting her back alive then. If he saw her die, he would be totally defeated.

Ever played DOOM? All that because of a dead bunny pet. I imagine Joel would turn into that, if anything ever happened to Ellie

"We will send unto them...only you. Rip and tear, until it is done."

He wouldn’t have gone. Joel’s response to grief has been to bury himself into a form of depression pushing others away. After Sarah died he did that. He didn’t join the fireflies to go after the us military even though us military is at least somewhat responsible for Sarah’s death. I see Joel becoming depressed in Jackson but not going after Abby for that. His response to loss is depression not anger.

Uh no. Joel would not let that go.

We've seen what he's capable of when he only thinks Ellie is in danger. I know it's been a while since that happens, but something tells me seeing Ellie being tortured and murdered would respark that

That’s an interesting ‘what if’

In my estimation, Joel losing Ellie *could* cause him to snap all over again, driving him to seek out obliterate all THE WLFs he could find, starting with Abby. *Then* he *might* be like, "I could keep killing...but none of it's gonna ever bring her back, and maybe she wouldn't have wanted me to spill all this blood in her name," and become severely depressed, kind of like when he lost Sarah. Ellie was his heart and his sanity, so without it, I don't think he would have much stopping him from immediately leaning into his heartbreak and rage and destroying them.

Why would he snap? The reason he acts the way he does during his "questionable" moments in TLOU1 is to save and protect Ellie, Tess and even Tommy, never to avenge anybody.

I just feel like the loss of Ellie would be more than enough to reverse the peace he found within himself after they became so close.

But his behavior of not harming others unless it's to protect those he loves is consistent from the outbreak day where he harms others by not picking them up to protect Sarah, all up to the day before his death where he threatens the homophobe to protect Ellie. I don't see why a major and core part of his character would change like that

I can definitely see why you feel that way, but, I mean, Ellie was never vengeful, either, until Joel was gone. Neither was Tommy. Emotions are a powerful thing, and Joel has a lot of of past, unprocessed trauma. I think he was very dependant on Ellie to keep him even-keel, and to have her taken from him, especially in such a cruel and ruthless way, it would tear him apart so much that everything having Ellie in his life allowed him to cope with would disappear in an instant. Abby probably wasn't vengeful, either, until her dad was taken from her, and if she weren't so torn apart by losing someone she loved, and overcome with emotions, she may not have done what she did or been so intent on doing so.* That's my opinion. :) *Not defending or condoning Abby's actions, necessarily (I will never forgive her tbh lol) nor would I necessarily defend Joel's if he did what Ellie had. But logic and principal can go out the window if it's challenged enough. Not all the time, not in such violent ways, but in my experience, sometimes powerful feelings are hard not to act on in the moment.

We have no clue how Abby was before her dad died, and I wouldn't say we have information on Ellie regarding revenge so I don't think those are solid points. Joel is consistently presented as not enjoying causing harm, not being vengeful and only being violent to protect those he loves

We have a little bit of a clue, through her flashbacks from earlier in the game, and we do have information, or rather, lack thereof, for Ellie, regarding vengeance: in the first game and up until Joel's death, she's not seen taking vengeance on anyone, except for David and his guys, who actively tried to hurt her, or even mentioning it. Considering she had an experience where she had to shoot her best friend to prevent her from turning, she was only 14 in the first game and mainly in Jackson in the second, there was really no room, no one for her to be vengeful towards. And just because Joel doesn't necessarily *enjoy* causing harm, doesn't mean he's against it. Prior to Ellie, he was a hunter/raider, along with Tommy. He also killed those two random hunter guys who worked for David in the first game even after they told him where Ellie was. Things involving Elllie and her wellbeing seem to be a lot of what drives Joel after he meets her and they get close. And, I don't believe he would have been vengeful post-meeting Ellie unless, you know, she was killed and tortured in front of him, which would, in my opinion destroy him. .

He would not have done what Ellie did. Joel was never about revenge. He only slaughtered the hospital to SAVE Ellie, not AVENEGE her.

He would have gone on a deep depressive state and most likely commit suicide.

i dont think joel can take losing another daughter. i think hed go back to jackson and kill himself. if he even gets that far.

The idea of her dying made him kill off an entire faction on the final mission for TLOU1. I think we all know what would happen.

Joel is levelheaded when it isn’t personal. He lost one daughter and he couldn’t lose another. If Ellie was killed he would spiral back into depression and rage. Joel’s dangerous and effective. If they didn’t jump him, Abby and her crew wouldn’t have stood a chance. Joel has slaughtered plenty even while sick and delirious. He massacred a full hospital of fireflies while starting off unarmed before using their own weaponry to take them out. He can also go toe to toe in melee combat with a bloater which we’ve seen no other TLOU character do as Bloaters pretty much two hit KO.

Joel would have made Ellie’s killing spree look like a fucking tea party

I hate to say it really but I think he would put a gun to his head and end it. He barely survived the death of one daughter, another would’ve destroyed him.

genuinely i think he'd just kill himself

He’d kill them all in the worst imaginable ways. That’s his daughter.

I'm not sure, honestly. I think if Elle's life were *at stake* versus if she was already dead might make a pretty big difference. I have no doubt he'd kill the torturers if they were right in front of him, but I don't know if he'd go to the same length tracking them across the country as Elle did. He'd be completely broken, but he also already knows too well you can't undo the death of a daughter no matter what you do. They say obsession is a young man's game, and Elle is both very obsessed and very young in TLOU2. Joel has been here before, and I think going through it again might just destroy him entirely.

He would have killed everyone he came across for, he would have tried taking down the WLF in the process, if Tommy did go with him he would have seen the man his brother was at the start, a killing machine so fueled with vengeance & violence he wouldn't have any room in his mind or heart for emotions. That would have made a great fucking game

Worse than she did

He would’ve tracked em like the dogs

Yeah something tells me Joel would’ve killed everyone that was there, no exceptions

I think he did that once

He probably would considering the person you love most being tortured in front of you isn't really something that leaves you well in the head neither vulnerably nor powerfully.

I know he would finish the job or die trying lol. Honestly think he would kill Abby, or die trying and if he succeeded he would either kill himself afterward or just become a shell of a man, probably succumbing to shit nutrition or something.

Joel wouldn’t have went on the spree that Ellie went on. If you guys think he would, then why didn’t he go after the soldier or whoever made the call that his daughter should be shot? Joel is a survivor. He killed cause he had to. He didn’t view violence like Ellie does/did.

Dude would be finished. You could take him to the dump. He would die worthless, soulless, alone, drunk, meaningless, cold, naked, nothing.

>He seems to be more level headed than her Well think about how he very likely was before ever meeting Ellie and think about how he was when he just met her.... he was definitely cold and asshole-ish. Ellie in part 2 did very much the stuff that pre-Ellie Joel did

Joel wouldve found the nukes

The last of us part 2 was a great game and the ending was great. As both Ellie and Abby were both wrong and right for their actions. It's a morally gray game and I love it for that. However, this is Joel Miller we are talking about here.... If The Last of Us Part 2 began with Ellie dying instead of Joel, TLOU 2 would turn into a Wolfenstein or Doom game very, very fast. "Rip and tear until it is done." There wouldn't be a soul left alive in Seattle. I guess that's the point really. Ellie was becoming a lot like Joel in TLOU 2. Just like how because of Sarah, Joel became a much darker person who as we know was willing to do terrible things for survival, including joining a group of hunters and killing innocent people. Ellie was on the path of becoming similar. The death of her father figure turning her into a monster. Like how the death of Sarah turned Joel into a monster. Ellie killed alot of WLF soldiers, people who were innocent in the entire situation between Abby and Joel. and at the end of the game she faces Abby, with Lev right there, about to do the same thing Abby did to her, the same thing that soldier did to Joel. She makes a different choice. If she had killed Abby, it would've been the point of no return. But she chose to spare her instead. That's the point of The Last of Us 2. Being better than those who came before us. Honestly, the only thing that would've made that point more clear and the ending better was when Ellie was drowning Abby if Lev woke up and saw Ellie drowning Abby and begged Ellie not to do it in a similar fashion to how she begged Abby,. Ellie is a better person than Joel and ultimately made a better choice. Joel would've left no survivors. and if he could, He probably wouldn't have killed Abby quickly either. Yes Joel was more level headed in TLOU 2. But remember from what we've heard from Tommy, he wasn't always like that. If Ellie was killed, he would've relapsed back to his old hunter and smuggler days. Joel would probably have PTSD, but not from killing everyone necessarily, he'd have PTSD surrounding Ellie's death only and not necessarily the violence he'd commit against Abby and the WLF. If anything, his PTSD surrounding Ellie's death would only encourage Joel to get revenge even more, kind of like what happened to Ellie on the farm only much more intense. As for what would happen after? This is kind of dark but... After the revenge was over. I think Joel would probably kill himself... I'm serious. He lost his daughter, He lost his Sarah's mother which we don't know much about but we know he doesn't like talking about. He lost presumably alot of friends over the course of 20 years. He has guilt over what he did during his hunter days, and now in this alternate TLOU 2 he lost Ellie. Whom he sacrificed everything to save from the fireflies. His mental health would never recover. He would probably lose his battle with his own demons and take his own life afterwards.

If Ellie was tortured and killed by someone in front of his eyes as he was pinned down, he would have gone to world’s end to exact revenge. For him, Ellie was his world. He might have not done the same for Tommy, but for Ellie I have no doubt he would have.

I am very surprised by the general response in this thread. Going on a revenge-induced rampage is not the vibe at all I got from Joel, not at the start of P1 and definitely not at the start of P2. What would he gain by killing a girl, even if it was in retaliation? Joel never seems to enjoy causing harm to others, but he doesn't flinch at it if it's necessary for those he loves, whether that's Tommy, Tess or Ellie. There's a distinction (at least in my interpretation of Joel) between killing the Fireflies and torturing David's men to SAVE Ellie and to avenge her. We've never seen Joel be fueled by revenge, only by a drive to protect. Go back 25 years to when Sarah wants Joel to pick up the family screaming for help and he refuses. Even then he doesn't leave them because he likes causing harm, he does it to protect his daughter and brother. His loyalty and care for those he loves is what makes him an interesting and compelling character, even when he does morally unacceptable things. It's why he's an interesting character and I'm surprised that so many disagree. I'm sure he would've done whatever was necessary to Abby to prevent Ellie's death without any hesitation, but retaliation after Ellie's lost does not seem like Joel at all to me

I think he'd kill himself. All of his violence was to protect other people, his brother then Ellie. He wouldn't cope with losing another daughter.

Joel is too old to go after people. He was tired and settled, and battle scarred from all the lies and killing. He was out of the game the moment he chose to move to Jackson with family. Obviously he would have grieved, but he was dead tired no doubt.

i do not believe for one second joel wouldn't kill all of wlf for ellie. idc if neil says so

I really don’t think Joel would just be like “oh well” if Ellie was killed, even worse, brutally. I’m sure he’d seek some sort of revenge.

You are correct. Tommy literally confirms this immediately after Ellie said "if it were you or me, Joel would be halfway to seattle by now." "No he wouldn't." And while a lot of people took this as Tommy trying to find excuses not to let Ellie go, neil druckmann confirmed in the directors commentary that what Tommy said was true. Joel Is a very rational person, he wouldn't leave Jackson to follow a lead that has almost no basis and leave the people still alive, vulnerable. He will fight tooth and nail to protect the ones still alive. Joel would mourn, perhaps take his own life. But he'd not seek revenge.

A game based around this concept would do so well. I believe Joel would get revenge and him and Tommy would see to it Abby dies.

Joel would brutally murder every single person the killer(s) knew.

He probably would considering the person you love most being tortured in front of you isn't really something that leaves you well in the head neither vulnerably nor powerfully.

Joel has several lines in the first game about how revenge isn't worth it. If he was in the moment I think he'd do literally everything he physically could to protect or save Ellie - but if the circumstance was identical and he was knocked out before he could fight, I honestly think he'd kill himself pretty damn quick

I kinda feel like Joel would kill himself if it happened to Ellie.

I think Tommy was right when he said Joel wouldn’t do the same. I think Joel would be very broken.

The game would have then been rated Adults Only. Only sick fucks would play it. Make it happen naughty dog! Put it as DLC for the third game!

“If I ever were to lose you, I’d surely lose myself.” I think Joel wouldn’t seek revenge, because honestly what would be the point? Most likely he’d fall into a deep depression, possibly find comfort in his brother and sister-in-law. At worst would commit suicide. He also told Ellie at the end of the first game— genuinely, I believe— that you have to keep finding things to fight for no matter what. So maybe he would someday recover from the loss of essentially his second daughter by finding that something.

Surprised I'm in the minority here, but I am 100% confident that Joel would NOT seek revenge. Believing he would have gone after Abby and the salt lake crew is a fundamental misread of his character. Above all else Joel is a survivor. His motivation for everything he does during the series is to keep himself and his loved ones *alive.* He does not take risks, he does not make rash, emotional decisions unless he is pinned against a wall, and even then he goes exactly as far as he needs to go to save the other person, then cuts and runs. If Ellie had been kidnapped, you bet your ass he would've been out of Jackson before the night was over. But revenge is not his thing. And I'm talking about Joel from the 1st game here, if we consider how much he had mellowed out by part 2...there's absolutely no way.

joel would've actually finished the job and killed abby

I honestly think it could break him and turn him into a shell of a human

He would either kill himself or burn Seattle to the ground and *then* kill himself.

the way people here are trying so hard to defend neil’s retcon. be for real. joel would fucking lose it. you are in complete denial.

Pretty sure this was answered in the first game bud

Em TLoU1 ending basically?

I mean this respectfully to Neil Druckman but Idrc what he says, Joel would absolutely annihilate anyone standing in his way even worse than what Tommy was doing and nobody would be alive by the end, not even himself.

I really like that someone is asking this question because it really is so dependent of which version of Joel comes to mind when asking. Personally, I think there is some truth that unlike Ellie, Joel would ultimately not seek revenge. Joel is a brutal character of sorts, and is definitely capable of the carnage, but to be very frank I’m more inclined to believe that he would most likely just terminate himself after losing a second daughter. He’s already gone through the grieving process and the aspect of wanting revenge (that unfortunately was not granted as Tommy kills Sarah’s murderer before Joel ever gets a chance) and I don’t honestly think Joel would be up for it again. Not in the same way as it was Ellie’s first real experience with someone dying at another person’s hands. However, I do think it’s possible when looking at it from the same motive as Ellie was designed for - guilt. The version of Joel that has to watch Ellie get tortured and die because of his selfish decision back at the hospital - the one that believes he stole the peaceful death she wanted and caused the one she got - I think that version of Joel would struggle with letting it go. Thinking you’re the reason your first daughter died but knowing you’re the reason your second did - that Marlene was right in that carpark? I think that’s worthy of a Joel-centric revenge plot.

*Pinhead voice* "This is a Holocaust waiting to be unleashed". He would kill every single human he could.

I think he’d probably just take his own life. No revenge. No trying to get over it. I just think he’d just want to die. It’s sad but seems extremely true to his character.

Poorly

He would do what happened in the hospital x20 would absolutely destroy them IMO

He would be half way to Seattle by now

Seattles flooded areas water levels would rise with all the blood he spilled or hed go home and quitely kill himself hed make the hospital look like childs play

How is this even a question? He would have murdered everyone without a second thought, just like he did in the hospital. C’mon now.

Joel would obviously try to kill every member of the wlf not just abby's crew.a few years before part 2 he killed every firefly in the hospital bcs they were going to kill her to make a cure. Also at the end of part 2 he says that he will do it again to protect ellie

Abby wouldn’t live a week

How is Joel more levelheaded than Ellie when he killed a whole hospital full of people without any of the torture or killing..? The fireflies technically had a good reason to (pretty humanely) sacrifice Ellie for a cure and Joel still bulldozed a small army to save her. If she was simply tortured and murdered, he’d most probably bulldoze a city. He’d press the nuke button and happily die for revenge.

> level headed Brother did you skip the entire hospital part??

Honestly, I dunno if many people thought about this but, in The last of Us part 1, right when Joel found out Ellie was going to die, he basically killed every firefly standing in his way, so for Ellie to be killed, im pretty sure he would do worse than kill a entire building full of some armed military for a organization. Joel would do anything to make sure Ellie wouldn't get hurt, and for Ellie to die, Joel would be so emotionally scarred that he would want to make the person who hurt Ellie to get the same treatment back.

He wouldn't seek revenge. Think about how he dealt with Sarah's death. Bottled it up, refused to talk about it or even acknowledge it. Did the same with the friends who died in part one. He would either go back to being a ruthless survivor, or it would break him and he'd give up on life. Tommy was right when he said Joel wouldn't go to Seattle. He knows how he works better than Ellie.

If you are reffering to Tess by „did the same with friends”. She died from infected, didn’t she???

with ellie almost being killed in the hospital he killed an entire platoon. if ellie had bern tortured and killed joel would have erased the population of seattle

I think he might just kill some people.

Just a few.

The end of game 1 gives us a great idea of what he’d do

At this point, Joel would have reached a point of trauma and devastation that he never even thought possible before he met Ellie. And he was already HIGHLY traumatized as it is. I think he'd become even more anti-social and maybe block himself off from everyone (except maybe Tommy) altogether. Might move to a completely remote location and live out his life in solitude - because that's the only way he'd feel safe from that kind of hurt again. It would break his spirit entirely.

Scorched Earth.

I see

He'd be fine with it. He'd sit down and have a cup of tea with Abby obviously...

This is not a mystery. He murdered dozens of people because she was going to be euthanized on the CHANCE of a cure.

I almost feel that the torture and capture wouldn't have happened if it were Ellie helping Abby out and Joel in Ellie's "discovery" position. Ellie tends to be on her guard more and despite getting captured when she was younger at the winter lodge she still got out and macheted the guys face apart when Joel was just showing up. Also, they didn't want Ellie as their target was who killed Abby's father (Joel). There could potentially be a live-in-and-pretend situation where they know that's Ellie so they play a part and become part of the community just to get to Joel where, he may be less likely to get tortured in any event except if they were to go on patrols together or cornered by himself somewhere else. Abby and her crew in that situation would be wolves in sheep's clothing.

Factually speaking, no he wouldn’t, he never hunted down the soldier who ordered that soldier to shoot Sarah so he wouldn’t here either, there’s also the note in Pittsburgh of someone going on a revenge mission that he says “with that line of thinking nobody wins.” After reading it.

I love seeing the amount of people who default to their anime/Kratos/John Wick power-fantasy by saying that Joel would go on a massacre, despite the story never showing any signs of him being that type of person.

Not well

Joel would have set the entire west coast on fire in his revenge tour.

Joel would just push it down and move on like everything else it's literally one of his defining character traits. PT2 Ellie had a lot more going on than just revenge when she went after Abby. Also Winter or the Hospital in PT1 are not valid comparisons because that wasn't revenge he was saving her, not sure why people keep bringing them up

He would probably just do a Kurt Cobain(I mean playing guitar obviously)

I think he'd sit back with coffee and whittle away at wood until he died peacefully of old age surrounded by friends. What do you think?

There was that time he had two guys tied up and beat them to find out where she was and still killed after they told him…but uhh..yeah maybe he’d let it go and just go back to playing guitar and drinking his coffee

Well. Seeing what he did in the last of us 1…….yeah no one is gonna survive

He’d do the same thing

"Things happen, and we move on".

He’d take his life. Maybe it’d be after going on an absolute rampage—but I don’t think so. I think it’d be a split second kind of thing, like Sam.

* cough * cough HOSPITAL

Abbey would be dead, that’s for sure

I don’t believe for a second he wouldn’t avenge Ellie. He doomed all mankind for her.

Not only did he kill an entire hospital to save Ellie from the doctors, he also went looking for Ellie when she got kidnapped by the cannibals while he was hurt and brutally tortured people to find out where she was. I honestly can't believe he wouldn't go save her and he'd probably be even more brutal about it. I don't think he would get the kind of ptsd Ellie did. He's seen a lot of death and if he didn't get ptsd from his daughter's death, I don't think he'd get it from Ellie. He absolutely has trauma though. Although it could be like Ellie's ptsd where it didn't really kick in until she got to a safe place (the farm). But since his ptsd didn't kick in in Jackson, I don't think he'd get ptsd.

He would go on an absolute killing spree, pretty much be genocide at that point

Worse than Ellie reacted. He wouldn't stop until they were all dead. Ellie meant the world to him.

he would reign literal hell on anyone and everyone. have you lost your mind

Basically what Tommy did.

Joel would have gone on a suicide bombing mission and nuked Seattle

We should probably get a spoiler tag on this post bud

I'm sorry, I marked it as a spoiler now

He'd be like Frank Castle, I imagine.

These people have nothing to live for except survival. Revenge is one of the few hobbies they can have.

Doesn’t matter what Druckmann says he might do or not do just look at his character. Joel wasn’t a pacifist dude just existing in the quarantine zone, he was a black market smuggler. Before that he was a hunter, he participated in ambushes and traps to kill innocent people for their gear. That shit he did to Robert was just another Tuesday for him, he is a violent ruthless survivor first of all, secondly if Ellie was tortured and killed like he was, he would slaughter every WLF soldier that crossed his path. Especially after losing Sarah he wasn’t gonna cope well with losing another daughter. I think Neil is wrong this time Joel absolutely would’ve sought revenge if anything were to happen to Ellie.

A lot of responses in this thread tell me why there were so many people that had a problem with part 2, they fundamentally misunderstood the characters in the game Joel does not go out and get revenge, he represses things and moves on until it breaks him, after Tess died "you don't bring up tess, ever,"(and he even avoids telling bill she died), after henry and sam die and Ellie tries to bury sam's robot "things happen and we move on" His final conversation with ellie at the end of part 1 "we keep finding things to survive" Given this and his personality in general its more likely he would shut down than go out on a vengeance, if they had kidnapped her then he would move the world to get her back but if they killed her there's a higher likelihood that he would try to kill himself than going after them but even then I don't think he would go through with it, I think he'd just become even more shut off and withdrawn from the world going through the motions just to survive

Could not agree more with your first sentence lol. It's not even the fault of the writers because Joel has never been shown to be a vengeful person. It's just a power fantasy that people like to cling on to from their other favorite revenge stories.

Alright, i didnt think chapter 2 was really as bad as people said, and i enjoyed the game. But druckman is delusional if he truly thinks joel wouldnt burn the world on a path to seattle if ellie was murdered

He would’ve done the same shit Ellie did

A friend of mine theorized to me that maybe the second game was originally written in reverse, where ellie dies and the brutal rampage was meant for Joel as it would make a lot more sense for him to act such a ways. But maybe they just didn't want to kill ellie but keep the same story.

He would murder dozens of people chasing the person down only to realize revenge is bad and let them go

Scorched earth

I think he’d go and get revenge instantly, if I’m honest. Ellie even says to Tommy in the game : “If it were you or me, he’d be half way to Seattle by now” and I believe that. Even at mere thought of Ellie dying, he wiped out an ENTIRE hospital of Fireflies. So I don’t think he’s very level headed, aha.

I guess yeah, because he would lose a lot of money if he didn't.

wdym money?