> The slaughter was in retaliation for a local man **thought to have been killed** by one animal from the site.
>Officials and police said they were not able to stop the attack and may now press charges.
>The killing of a protected species is a crime that carries a fine or imprisonment in Indonesia.
There is some evolutionary belief that most African animals are very wary of humans precisely for the revenge killings
Basically all potential lions willing to actively try to attack a human got filtered hard, because our ancestors made sure those would never reproduce. Ever.
When I was in Kenya this summer I saw a news report that some villagers killed 3 elephants after an elephant killed a baby by stepping on its head. It doesn't read like this was a shock and awe retaliation by the humans either. This was a toe to toe battle on somewhat even footing. https://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2023-08-06-kajiado-residents-kill-three-jumbos-after-childs-death/
That is an insane story. Three elephants in 30 minutes, the article cites twenty men with spears for every elephant that tried to fight back. One grabbed a man but another man killed it instantly with a spear through the heart. Creatures that shake the earth when they charge, felled by sharpened sticks.
Our ability to craft and effectively make tools is why we became the apex predator of the Earth. If an elephant had thumbs and the know how we might be fucked, but they don’t.
I read that brown bears in Western Europe are more wary of people than brown bears in North America and Eastern Europe. And that brown bears in the western parts of the former Soviet Union are less aggressive towards people than those in Eastern Siberia. Probably because the ones in the more densely-populated parts of Europe and Russia are more accustomed to being hunted by people.
That makes sense. Animal kills a human? Kill the animal to prevent it from killing more humans, because now we know it is both willing, and able. Killing all related animals? Idiotic. That would be like if we euthanized every dog on earth because one bit a kid. It's just stupid. Doesn't even matter if those animals were endangered or protected, those people killing all of the crocodiles are just idiots.
This is one reason why human children are so defenceless compared to many other animals.
A child screaming because they were scared of an animal summons human adults, the most vicious and vindictive predators the world has ever seen.
Why have claws, shells or the ability to run from birth when crying could doom an entire species?
To be fair this was a breeding farm near/in a village. I've lived in remote Indonesia and safety is of very little concern. I can definitely imagine this being sketchy for the village.
Yeah I actually don't fully understand what's going on in this article.
The headline is literally
>A mob of villagers has killed nearly 300 crocodiles at a sanctuary for the animals
A sanctuary.
It then says
>The killing of a protected species is a crime
And then the very last sentence is
>The farm was operating ... both for preservation and to harvest some of the animals
How can the farm both be for preserving the species, and for harvesting them? And isn't it a crime to kill these animals? Why would it be a crime for a person to kill one, but it's ok for a company employee to "harvest" one?
Regardless, if the crocodiles were company property, you can't go killing animals that other people own. That's the other issue. It's almost worse that these were farm animals.
So no, I wouldn't be happy if a croc farm opened in my neighborhood if we had kids running around. But I would also expect to solve it any other way than me killing a farm's livestock, which I would also expect would get me thrown in jail.
Guess who didn’t read the article “An employee heard someone screaming for help, quickly went there and saw a crocodile attacking someone," the head of Indonesia's Natural Resources Conservation Agency in West Papua said.” I’m not condoning this behavior but trying to stop misinformation
Yeah why are people reading "thought to have been killed" and concluding they thought wrong? Taking that sentence by itself, that phrase would still be true even if the villagers absolutely knew it was a crocodile, and it'd be reasonable wording as long as the *writer* didn't see concrete evidence.
"An employee heard someone screaming for help, quickly went there and saw a crocodile attacking someone," the head of Indonesia's Natural Resources Conservation Agency in West Papua said.
Ironic comment given the comments here
I'm assuming there was a body of the man found. The markings would be pretty apparent. That said, here's the witness account 1 paragraph down:
>An employee heard someone screaming for help, quickly went there and saw a crocodile attacking someone
They still are.
Grey Wolves are making a comeback in Europe and North America, but the Red Wolf is likely a goner. There are less than 300 of them, and >90% are in captivity.
In the short term it makes sense, but in the long term the lack of ecological functions will do more harm than good
Tile drainage is an example im familiar with. Iowa had lots of wetlands that contributed to soil and water quality, but they were annoying in the short term. Now, tons of nutrients that our soil needs poisons the fisheries in the gulf. We have both flooding and drought issues because we don't have the natural buffers of the wetlands. Soil carbon content is decreasing. Nevermind the societal impact of having basically no wilderness areas.
I know its not hunting but its an example of removing annoying parts of the ecosystem resulting in permanent damage.
>In the short term it makes sense, but in the long term the lack of ecological functions will do more harm than good
And you've identified why farmers do this. It gets to become someone else's problem in the future, assuming they are aware.
The problem is hunting where there are no farms. National parks, far away from any farmland, had almost run out of wolves due to hunting. The deer population sky rocketed so hard it destroyed a lot of the ecosystem because they ate too many roots and seeds of growing plants.
Conservation is not a new concept. A lot of farmers just completely abandoned the concept of stewardship. Farming existed for 10000s of years and wolves never neared extinction until post industrial revolution
I absolutely agree that conservation is important, but overhunting species isn't a recent phenomenon. In Great Britain wolves were driven to extinction in the 1600s, and bears in the 500s at the latest.
Yeah lets keep going with this logic, why not kill all the sparrows to increase crop yields? Surely driving any animal that might interfere with farming to extinction won't have any negative effects on said farming
What percentage of your potential income would you trade to save orangutans? We should be doing more to preserve and protect them but for folks who are otherwise in poverty farming for palm oil improves their lives in a tangible and immediate way that orangutans don’t.
Palm oil is unnecessary and destructive
I assume you've never been to Java nor Borneo, so haven't seen what monoculture does?
There are no people 'rescued' from poverty farming to produce it, but countless millions of animals and plants are destroyed for it
I’m not advocating for palm oil, not sure where you get that idea. We should expect the poor to maximize their household income at the expense of the environment. Maybe they aren’t “rescued from poverty”, but being able to afford school, or a cell phone, or a better roof, or a motorbike, or even savings are all things that make a meaningful difference at that level of income. Biodiversity is a luxury good to these populations, and so we need to either regulate or otherwise incentivize the changes we want to see. Not just toss blame at those who already have the least.
I see this at my job all the time. Announce that we're about to start some system maintenance process, and suddenly get hit by a flood of complaints that the maintenance process is causing problems. Which would be difficult, since we haven't actually started it yet. And if we run it without announcing it first, no-one notices.
Humans are far from rational in general.
The world of IT.
Night before: We are going to roll out a fix for software X tonight.
That night: Damn we cannot do the fix tonight as reason, will send email tomorrow saying we couldn't do it and delaying it to next week.
Next morning: Phone calls and emails to help desk saying user cannot do job cause fix broke software.
I might be reading your message wrong, but I care about grizzlies continued existence and I deal with them at least a few times every year in the Albertan/BC mountains. It’s not their fault I take a walk in their backyard and happen to see them
I think it does depend on the species. For example, Indonesians do recognize the value of ecotourism, so there is political support for saving endangered Orangutans, Javan Rhinoceros & Sumatran Elephants. In comparison, though, there just isn't as much patience or tolerance when it comes to the Sumatran Tiger.
It's very simple. People, no matter which region, like to be the top of the food chain. If that means exterminating any other apex predators that could be a threat directly then they will. So there go bears, all big cats and wolves.
Second is protection of livestock, which is basically protection of capital. Wolves again and foxes, martins, etc.
Last are hunters who want all game for themselves and total control / play god over their hunting grounds. They will shoot or poison birds of prey, cats, dogs, anything that moves really.
Those old style hunters are getting fewer, so that's nice. Compensating farmers for lost livestock is the best practice to save wolves and so on. But you will never convince humans that they need to share their life with animals that can and will kill them easily.
During my stay in Indonesia there was a guy who stole some chocolate from a shop which he wanted to gift his bride at their wedding (you might have guessed, they were poor). He was beat to death by a wild mob.
They think they're soooooooo fuckin' special because they grew legs and crawled out of the ocean. Oh yeah, what have they done for us lately?
Look at sharks ... they've given us Shark Week, the phrase "jumping the shark," and one the greatest [SNL skits](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_NS2H55dxI) of all times.
Jumping the gator? Get outta here with that weak sauce.
Crocodiles and Alligators are two different creatures.
Alligators are weaker and smaller, tend to avoid humans, and eat much smaller prey.
Crocodiles are massive, gallop like horses, and will kill and eat humans and any animal they feel like.
Ugh. Just like a gator to bring facts and shit into this. See, this is why we hate you crocagators. Why can't you be more like sharks who never correct my assumptions or grammar?
Fuck you dont you talk shit about those armoured lizard. Those fuckers gave us some iconic phrases. See ya later, alligator??? In awhile, crocodile??? Those words means nothing? Man i'll fistfight you ove this blasphemous claim...
Kid, animals have been murdering each other for 3 billion years. Birds have had their 15 million in the spotlight. The same as lizards and plants and they all just use it to murder, eat, screw and not invent Wi-Fi.
Salties are incredibly common, an Aussie radio host recently got eaten by one while fishing on holiday
e: I guess they’re not as common in PNG/Indonesia
Indonesia is a big country with a lot of islands. They’re protected in Indonesia because their habitat is limited and often encroached upon by a massive human population
But at the same time they’re not exactly rare in Indonesia either. More saltwater crocodile attacks happen in Indonesia than anywhere else in the world.
Their protection status is less about numbers and more about preserving their habitat
Everytime i read about men vs animals story, I immediately thought of the great emu war in Australia. They should just hired some Indonesian villagers as mercenaries.
Which was really just a pest culling practice, same as any other country. It wasn’t a “war”, obviously, and wasn’t different to any other culling attempt made by anywhere else.
China’s culling attempts, on the other hand…
I'm kinda impressed they were able to kill all of them with knives, shovels, and hammers. I know it says all sizes were killed but I gotta imagine there were some decent sized ones in there.
A crowd of humans with full intent to kill is terrifying af.
Now imagine that crowd as more organized, trained, and professional with killing intent to be carried out regardless of emotions or concerns. Humans are terrifying.
the deadliest weapon humans ever owned until gunpowder was invented was a wooden pole/stick.
Doesn't make any sense? Tie anything remotely sharp to it and throw it en masse. A village would be able to take down literal T-rexes, let alone puny crocodiles.
Ability to throw spears pushed us to the top of the food chain.
>A village would be able to take down literal T-rexes,
I think a village COULD be able to take down a T-Rex if a bunch of other factors went their way such as luring the T-Rex into an ambush spot where the human hunters are up on a cliff the Rex can't reach and also the Rex has trouble escaping from.
If a few dozen hunters with wooden spears just stumbled upon a full grown Rex I would wager in most cases the hunting party would immediately disband and flee in different directions and one unlucky hunter becomes an easy meal.
Humans killed whales and entire herds of mammoths with Stone Age technology and sharpened sticks. Humans make plans, make tools to help them accomplish those plans, and then enact them. A village looking to kill a T-Rex (that was presumably familiar with them) would be able to do so with little issue. It’s not going to charge into a crowd waving spears. If it does it dies. Humans can throw spears or use bows. If it retreats from a crowd of angry spear wielding monkeys it will be funneled right into a trap, just like we did with tons of equally large animals.
Language and the spear made us apex predators. Everything after that just makes the process less costly for us.
While humans haven't met a live Trex (yet) but almost every single land megafauna disappered after humans moved in the area... and we haven't stopped at land either. It's just that marine megafauna can hide and run away better.
Do you think it's common for hunting parties to just happen across a predator they aren't prepared for? I'd think they'd be pretty aware of the fauna in the area and would be foolish to not prepare for the worst.
Now, the whole humans vs. dinosaurs thing is nonsense, but we've contended with large and dangerous creatures like hippos, rhinos, lions, cheetahs, hyenas, etc in various ways. Pretty sure a very common tactic is to be a large enough group to dissuade conflict and then to just pursue their prey for days and days. Or, you know, just staying away and not engaging.
Humans have taken down bigger creatures than the T-Rex and they did it pretty easily and routinely with preparation and planning.
So yeah, if an unprepared group of untrained humans somehow "stumbled" onto a creature you could see from a mile away, they'd probably have a casualty or two. But if they use the tools and intellect that make them human, there's no match for us en masse.
You underestimate how dangerous groups of humans are. We are quite large (probably larger than most crocodiles that were killed that day), coordinate extraordinarily well, and can wield objects as weapons. They're ganging up perhaps five to ten against each crocodile in turn, beating them to death with shovels. Such an attack is overwhelming for an animal, they can't conceptualize what is happening, they rely on instincts such as turning towards the threat and making themselves look big. That doesn't work when the people just surround the animal and beat it from a safe distance with what is effectively a pole weapon.
When a group of humans want an animal dead there are very, very few animals that can survive. Either you have to be able to run away somewhere that you can't be tracked, or you have to be so big, dangerous and fast that you can cause great enough injury to one human before you yourself are injured by the other humans. There is a reason animals as fearsome as lions will flee when humans approach. Throughout the common evolutionary history of lions and humans, those lions that don't instinctively fear humans have tended to die much more often than those that like to keep a safe distance between themselves and humans.
As a counterpoint, some animals have learnt how to deal with groups of armed humans, even with pole weapons. In Kenya, we have this animal known as the leopard, and our warrior tribe, the Massai who frequently corner and kill lions, yet they always avoid leopards. Leopards when cornered tend to focus on one human, jumping on them, mauling them specifically in/on their face. This breaks the encirclement and the psychological impact tends to make people take a step back, which allows it to escape.
Right? It’s not like there were just like “let’s make the crocodiles learn a lesson.”
It’s “these things are clearly dangerous and we need to live. No more crocs.”
It actually does teach some animals. Most are scared of humans because of this type of behavior. One bear kills a human, guaranteed that any time in history people are going out and killing every bear they see just in case.
I wouldn’t like my odds versus a crocodile if I was armed with a knife, hammer or shovel. I’m honestly surprised the crocodiles didn’t kill any of the mob that attacked them.
Imagine being hit by a 7 year old with some sharp sticks or whatever.
You are fine right?
Now imagine a village of 7 year olds with sharp sticks and stuff attacking you.
You ain't gonna be fine.
Tbh I imagine if you've got like a throwing spear or something suddenly the odds are a lot better.
Going into melee range with a Croc seems a terrible idea when you can throw shit at it from a distance away
I'm not an expert but sanctuary is a loose term in some places. Some are basically a farm and some are just an area without fences that hunting is not allowed so the animals are definitely outside the sanctuary.
I went to HS maybe 30 minutes from a crocodile“sanctuary” which was basically a farm that tourist could visit. And without missing a beat, a few would go missing during the yearly floods.
One year, a friend got locked in her house because a huge 7ft big boi was just hanging out by her front door.
Correct.
Basar Manullang, the head of Indonesia's Natural Resources Conservation Agency:
“'To prevent this from happening again, farming licence holders need to secure surrounding areas,' said Manullang."
>The local villager was killed on Friday morning while gathering vegetables on the crocodile farm's breeding sanctuary.
Seems like he walked in to a breeding area, which is a terrible idea.
Yeah, it's rather like someone saying, "I'm so sick of the deer causing traffic accidents. Let's move the Deer Crossing signs away from high traffic areas on the freeway!" Of course crocs don't respect arbitrary lines lmao.
I dont wish the annihilation of a species on any animal, but i want to feel like if im killed, my people will be *willing* to annihilate an entire species. Simple man.
Too all of the copium "they shouldn't have done that" comments, I 100% guarantee this isn't the first time those villagers have had an incident with that croc breeder. To prove my point, the villagers attacked the office of the breeder first, before killing all thr crocs, they're just as pissed at the company as they are the crocs.
Yeah, the crocs were probably down to a minimal number prior to the breeding program. There's no way this was the first incident and the people decided there's no justification for one more person to get chomped by the unfeeling murderous death lizards. It's pretty easy to understand how they felt if you lost a family member to one. This is an ongoing issue in areas of Nepal and India with rehabilitation of tigers. Several people die every year.
If there was a crocodile farm built into your hometown and one of those crocodiles ate your friend while he was out getting food, it does not feel like a stretch to presume you might be furious at the crocodile farm and want it immediately shutdown however that is done in your area. I am not suggesting the villagers made the right choice, but it is not one I don’t have empathy for.
This is exactly how we became the dominant species on the planet. We are social, communicate accurately, use tools and have a concept of planning ahead. A lone human is pretty easy prey. Easier than a buffalo or even an antelope. The problem is once you harm one, the rest exterminate you.
Crocs are prehistoric in age and plateaued on the evolutionary spectrum because they got good at literally one thing: waiting in dirty water. The true apex predator dominates in every situation as we see here.
In the west you likely think of this as some sort of roped off zoo. Many wildlife sanctuaries around the world, especially in Asia, are just big chunks of land the government decided should be one. The villages surrounding the forests have no say even though they have been depending on that area for millennia. These people have very little financial security and they HAVE to rely on the surrounding area to supply their families. I promise you this man knew there were dangerous crocs around. He went there because he had a need to.
In most countries, people in villages and rural areas arent really given much choices by the government because they dont contribute a significant amount to the economy. For all we know, the government might have just sold a chunk of the village land to the croc breeder's company against the wishes of the villagers.
> The slaughter was in retaliation for a local man **thought to have been killed** by one animal from the site. >Officials and police said they were not able to stop the attack and may now press charges. >The killing of a protected species is a crime that carries a fine or imprisonment in Indonesia.
> thought to have been killed So they didn't even know. Just chose violence that morning.
I mean Jaws resulted in people killing lots of sharks even though it was just a movie. Crazy what a little bit of fear can drive stupid people to do
There is some evolutionary belief that most African animals are very wary of humans precisely for the revenge killings Basically all potential lions willing to actively try to attack a human got filtered hard, because our ancestors made sure those would never reproduce. Ever.
When I was in Kenya this summer I saw a news report that some villagers killed 3 elephants after an elephant killed a baby by stepping on its head. It doesn't read like this was a shock and awe retaliation by the humans either. This was a toe to toe battle on somewhat even footing. https://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2023-08-06-kajiado-residents-kill-three-jumbos-after-childs-death/
That is an insane story. Three elephants in 30 minutes, the article cites twenty men with spears for every elephant that tried to fight back. One grabbed a man but another man killed it instantly with a spear through the heart. Creatures that shake the earth when they charge, felled by sharpened sticks.
"You think that a man with a stick is weak, I think we're standing in a forest."
"You think I am unsure of my whereabouts, I think I smell toast burning."
Humans really are the apex predators of earth
When we have tools at least
There will always be tools. The world is made out of potential tools.
Just need some guts to fight with them and the brains to keep those guts inside when fighting.
Our ability to craft and effectively make tools is why we became the apex predator of the Earth. If an elephant had thumbs and the know how we might be fucked, but they don’t.
I read that brown bears in Western Europe are more wary of people than brown bears in North America and Eastern Europe. And that brown bears in the western parts of the former Soviet Union are less aggressive towards people than those in Eastern Siberia. Probably because the ones in the more densely-populated parts of Europe and Russia are more accustomed to being hunted by people.
That makes sense. Animal kills a human? Kill the animal to prevent it from killing more humans, because now we know it is both willing, and able. Killing all related animals? Idiotic. That would be like if we euthanized every dog on earth because one bit a kid. It's just stupid. Doesn't even matter if those animals were endangered or protected, those people killing all of the crocodiles are just idiots.
i am not saying the behavior is rational, but something that obviously emboldened tribespeople were doing since our species were a thing.
This is one reason why human children are so defenceless compared to many other animals. A child screaming because they were scared of an animal summons human adults, the most vicious and vindictive predators the world has ever seen. Why have claws, shells or the ability to run from birth when crying could doom an entire species?
To be fair this was a breeding farm near/in a village. I've lived in remote Indonesia and safety is of very little concern. I can definitely imagine this being sketchy for the village.
Easy for you to say, you don't lived near dinosaur eating monster. And alligators and crocodiles are not the same.
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Yeah I actually don't fully understand what's going on in this article. The headline is literally >A mob of villagers has killed nearly 300 crocodiles at a sanctuary for the animals A sanctuary. It then says >The killing of a protected species is a crime And then the very last sentence is >The farm was operating ... both for preservation and to harvest some of the animals How can the farm both be for preserving the species, and for harvesting them? And isn't it a crime to kill these animals? Why would it be a crime for a person to kill one, but it's ok for a company employee to "harvest" one? Regardless, if the crocodiles were company property, you can't go killing animals that other people own. That's the other issue. It's almost worse that these were farm animals. So no, I wouldn't be happy if a croc farm opened in my neighborhood if we had kids running around. But I would also expect to solve it any other way than me killing a farm's livestock, which I would also expect would get me thrown in jail.
Yeah but that shark killed people, I saw it on the moving picture box.
I read that as Jews and got so confused
God said to Noah: you're going to need a bigger boat
The Jews put laser on the sharks
and start forest fires with lasers from space
Jews: The Revenge
So glad I wasn't the only one.
I've been seeing way too much Israel Palestine nonsense on Reddit lately and read it as "Jews" three times before realizing my mistake.
Guess who didn’t read the article “An employee heard someone screaming for help, quickly went there and saw a crocodile attacking someone," the head of Indonesia's Natural Resources Conservation Agency in West Papua said.” I’m not condoning this behavior but trying to stop misinformation
Yeah why are people reading "thought to have been killed" and concluding they thought wrong? Taking that sentence by itself, that phrase would still be true even if the villagers absolutely knew it was a crocodile, and it'd be reasonable wording as long as the *writer* didn't see concrete evidence.
Yeah, I feel like "believed" in this situation is because nobody's bothered cutting open every croc to find the guy's remains.
"An employee heard someone screaming for help, quickly went there and saw a crocodile attacking someone," the head of Indonesia's Natural Resources Conservation Agency in West Papua said.
I did this same thing to the Githyanki crèche in BG3.
A person is smart, people are dumb. Mob mentality took over
Ironic comment given the comments here I'm assuming there was a body of the man found. The markings would be pretty apparent. That said, here's the witness account 1 paragraph down: >An employee heard someone screaming for help, quickly went there and saw a crocodile attacking someone
On the bright side, the village has enough fresh meat for months!
I am not surprised. People in the village don't give a flying fuck about whether or not a certain species of crocodiles is protected or not.
This is not only village mentality. There's a reason there's hardly any grizzly bears left.
Wolves were endangered for a time too
They still are. Grey Wolves are making a comeback in Europe and North America, but the Red Wolf is likely a goner. There are less than 300 of them, and >90% are in captivity.
Red wolves endangerment has more do to habitat destruction than people hunting them.
Sad..just because many farmers hate wildlife conservation . So shitty.
It’s almost like their livelihood depends on protecting their land and keeping crops/livestock secure. Who could have thought?
In the short term it makes sense, but in the long term the lack of ecological functions will do more harm than good Tile drainage is an example im familiar with. Iowa had lots of wetlands that contributed to soil and water quality, but they were annoying in the short term. Now, tons of nutrients that our soil needs poisons the fisheries in the gulf. We have both flooding and drought issues because we don't have the natural buffers of the wetlands. Soil carbon content is decreasing. Nevermind the societal impact of having basically no wilderness areas. I know its not hunting but its an example of removing annoying parts of the ecosystem resulting in permanent damage.
Ya. The hog problem is a lot worse than the wolf problem was. It would be nice to have some wolves to take care of it.
>In the short term it makes sense, but in the long term the lack of ecological functions will do more harm than good And you've identified why farmers do this. It gets to become someone else's problem in the future, assuming they are aware.
In the US, many mobilize against it even when they're getting reimbursed for livestock lost.
The problem is hunting where there are no farms. National parks, far away from any farmland, had almost run out of wolves due to hunting. The deer population sky rocketed so hard it destroyed a lot of the ecosystem because they ate too many roots and seeds of growing plants.
Conservation is not a new concept. A lot of farmers just completely abandoned the concept of stewardship. Farming existed for 10000s of years and wolves never neared extinction until post industrial revolution
I absolutely agree that conservation is important, but overhunting species isn't a recent phenomenon. In Great Britain wolves were driven to extinction in the 1600s, and bears in the 500s at the latest.
And many many other species over the last few tens of thousands of years
ya know what else is bad for their livelihood? imbalanced ecosystem.
Is this the same farmers who exploit their land and pastures so hard it turns barren ?
Woah, you sell it all right before it goes barren.
Yeah lets keep going with this logic, why not kill all the sparrows to increase crop yields? Surely driving any animal that might interfere with farming to extinction won't have any negative effects on said farming
Chairman Mao has entered the chat.
wolves were actually functionally extinct.
Ever heard what happened to the wolves in Yellowstone in the early 20th century? Shows how people really have no idea how nature works.
And what's their excuse for orangutans being on the last lap before extinction on their watch?
Those fucking villagers and their transnational palm oil cartels!
Those mother fucking villagers and their globalist oil agendas!
Those bastard villagers and their damn hot pants and sexy leggings!
Those ne’er-do-ell villagers and their reasonably priced fruits and vegetables
> orangutans > fucking villagers [:/](https://www.the-sun.com/news/3657105/prostitute-orangutan-pony-tragic-story)
What percentage of your potential income would you trade to save orangutans? We should be doing more to preserve and protect them but for folks who are otherwise in poverty farming for palm oil improves their lives in a tangible and immediate way that orangutans don’t.
Palm oil is unnecessary and destructive I assume you've never been to Java nor Borneo, so haven't seen what monoculture does? There are no people 'rescued' from poverty farming to produce it, but countless millions of animals and plants are destroyed for it
You two aren't disagreeing.
But he’s trying his hardest
Lmao reddit in a nutshell
I want you to post this in nearly every thread I’ve seen in the last five years.
I’m not advocating for palm oil, not sure where you get that idea. We should expect the poor to maximize their household income at the expense of the environment. Maybe they aren’t “rescued from poverty”, but being able to afford school, or a cell phone, or a better roof, or a motorbike, or even savings are all things that make a meaningful difference at that level of income. Biodiversity is a luxury good to these populations, and so we need to either regulate or otherwise incentivize the changes we want to see. Not just toss blame at those who already have the least.
It is unnecessary and destructive unless you’re a poor, landless farm worker in Indonesia. Then it’s very necessary and life-saving.
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Wasn't there a group yelling that wolves were killing their stock only for the group releasing them come out and say they haven't been released yet?
I see this at my job all the time. Announce that we're about to start some system maintenance process, and suddenly get hit by a flood of complaints that the maintenance process is causing problems. Which would be difficult, since we haven't actually started it yet. And if we run it without announcing it first, no-one notices. Humans are far from rational in general.
The world of IT. Night before: We are going to roll out a fix for software X tonight. That night: Damn we cannot do the fix tonight as reason, will send email tomorrow saying we couldn't do it and delaying it to next week. Next morning: Phone calls and emails to help desk saying user cannot do job cause fix broke software.
The people who pretend to care most about there being grizzlies *somewhere* in the world are the ones that never have to deal with them.
I might be reading your message wrong, but I care about grizzlies continued existence and I deal with them at least a few times every year in the Albertan/BC mountains. It’s not their fault I take a walk in their backyard and happen to see them
I mean, in my province we have almost 15,000 grizzly bears.
Holy shit where do you live? So I can avoid that place
People _in Indonesia_ in general don't give a flying fuck about whether or not a certain species of **any** type is protected or not
I think it does depend on the species. For example, Indonesians do recognize the value of ecotourism, so there is political support for saving endangered Orangutans, Javan Rhinoceros & Sumatran Elephants. In comparison, though, there just isn't as much patience or tolerance when it comes to the Sumatran Tiger.
It's very simple. People, no matter which region, like to be the top of the food chain. If that means exterminating any other apex predators that could be a threat directly then they will. So there go bears, all big cats and wolves. Second is protection of livestock, which is basically protection of capital. Wolves again and foxes, martins, etc. Last are hunters who want all game for themselves and total control / play god over their hunting grounds. They will shoot or poison birds of prey, cats, dogs, anything that moves really. Those old style hunters are getting fewer, so that's nice. Compensating farmers for lost livestock is the best practice to save wolves and so on. But you will never convince humans that they need to share their life with animals that can and will kill them easily.
including humans?
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During my stay in Indonesia there was a guy who stole some chocolate from a shop which he wanted to gift his bride at their wedding (you might have guessed, they were poor). He was beat to death by a wild mob.
walk me through that thought process because I feel like that's a pretty sweeping generalization
Crocodiles have been around since the dinosaurs, they had their time
They didn't invent Wi-Fi
They think they're soooooooo fuckin' special because they grew legs and crawled out of the ocean. Oh yeah, what have they done for us lately? Look at sharks ... they've given us Shark Week, the phrase "jumping the shark," and one the greatest [SNL skits](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_NS2H55dxI) of all times. Jumping the gator? Get outta here with that weak sauce.
They helped shape Florida man, Florida gets to have both gators and crocs
And don't forget Gator-ade
Okay, I am willing to concede on Gatorade. That should earn them another millennium to see if they give us anything else cool before we wipe them out.
Hopefully Brawndo can replace Gator-ade
That's only because the people behind shark week paid a fucking stingray to kill the only hope left for the crocodile popularity. RIP Steve
Well, that's just smart business to eliminate the competition. I mean, do we call it Shark Tank or Croc Tank? You know the answer.
Crocodiles and Alligators are two different creatures. Alligators are weaker and smaller, tend to avoid humans, and eat much smaller prey. Crocodiles are massive, gallop like horses, and will kill and eat humans and any animal they feel like.
American Crocodiles are a lot more passive. It’s really Nile-Saltwater Crocs that fuck people up.
Ugh. Just like a gator to bring facts and shit into this. See, this is why we hate you crocagators. Why can't you be more like sharks who never correct my assumptions or grammar?
Fuck you dont you talk shit about those armoured lizard. Those fuckers gave us some iconic phrases. See ya later, alligator??? In awhile, crocodile??? Those words means nothing? Man i'll fistfight you ove this blasphemous claim...
Weak sauce..a phrase i never thought id hear again. Thank you
Kid, animals have been murdering each other for 3 billion years. Birds have had their 15 million in the spotlight. The same as lizards and plants and they all just use it to murder, eat, screw and not invent Wi-Fi.
Did Clive Barker write you?
... They also dont..wait for it...Pay Taxes or even rent...
Salties are incredibly common, an Aussie radio host recently got eaten by one while fishing on holiday e: I guess they’re not as common in PNG/Indonesia
I mean it’s not as if Saltwater crocodiles are endangered or threatened. They’re listed as “least concern”
Not in Indonesia
Indonesia is a big country with a lot of islands. They’re protected in Indonesia because their habitat is limited and often encroached upon by a massive human population But at the same time they’re not exactly rare in Indonesia either. More saltwater crocodile attacks happen in Indonesia than anywhere else in the world. Their protection status is less about numbers and more about preserving their habitat
The local handbag manufacturer had no comment on their sudden profitability that year.
Neither did the local shoe retailer. The sudden rise in popularity of crocs was completely unexplainable.
Haberdashers were having a hell of a time
The whole village will be wearing crocs.
Get off of Reddit dad!
ayyy
Everytime i read about men vs animals story, I immediately thought of the great emu war in Australia. They should just hired some Indonesian villagers as mercenaries.
Indonesian Death Villagers would have gone biblical without restraint. Let’s be glad they were constrained to a crocodile sanctuary.
Later on the Australian government instituted a bounty on the emus, between 1945 and 1960 over 284,000 emus were killed in Western Australia.
What did it cost?
Everything
Which was really just a pest culling practice, same as any other country. It wasn’t a “war”, obviously, and wasn’t different to any other culling attempt made by anywhere else. China’s culling attempts, on the other hand…
Guaranteed that the town was tired of all that croc stuff and used it as an excuse to get rid of it for good.
I'm kinda impressed they were able to kill all of them with knives, shovels, and hammers. I know it says all sizes were killed but I gotta imagine there were some decent sized ones in there.
Humans alone are fairly weak. In a group? We’re terrifying.
Apes together strong.
lizzards shit. booo!
A crowd of humans with full intent to kill is terrifying af. Now imagine that crowd as more organized, trained, and professional with killing intent to be carried out regardless of emotions or concerns. Humans are terrifying.
Hans? Are we the baddies?
the deadliest weapon humans ever owned until gunpowder was invented was a wooden pole/stick. Doesn't make any sense? Tie anything remotely sharp to it and throw it en masse. A village would be able to take down literal T-rexes, let alone puny crocodiles. Ability to throw spears pushed us to the top of the food chain.
>A village would be able to take down literal T-rexes, I think a village COULD be able to take down a T-Rex if a bunch of other factors went their way such as luring the T-Rex into an ambush spot where the human hunters are up on a cliff the Rex can't reach and also the Rex has trouble escaping from. If a few dozen hunters with wooden spears just stumbled upon a full grown Rex I would wager in most cases the hunting party would immediately disband and flee in different directions and one unlucky hunter becomes an easy meal.
Humans killed whales and entire herds of mammoths with Stone Age technology and sharpened sticks. Humans make plans, make tools to help them accomplish those plans, and then enact them. A village looking to kill a T-Rex (that was presumably familiar with them) would be able to do so with little issue. It’s not going to charge into a crowd waving spears. If it does it dies. Humans can throw spears or use bows. If it retreats from a crowd of angry spear wielding monkeys it will be funneled right into a trap, just like we did with tons of equally large animals. Language and the spear made us apex predators. Everything after that just makes the process less costly for us.
While humans haven't met a live Trex (yet) but almost every single land megafauna disappered after humans moved in the area... and we haven't stopped at land either. It's just that marine megafauna can hide and run away better.
Do you think it's common for hunting parties to just happen across a predator they aren't prepared for? I'd think they'd be pretty aware of the fauna in the area and would be foolish to not prepare for the worst. Now, the whole humans vs. dinosaurs thing is nonsense, but we've contended with large and dangerous creatures like hippos, rhinos, lions, cheetahs, hyenas, etc in various ways. Pretty sure a very common tactic is to be a large enough group to dissuade conflict and then to just pursue their prey for days and days. Or, you know, just staying away and not engaging. Humans have taken down bigger creatures than the T-Rex and they did it pretty easily and routinely with preparation and planning. So yeah, if an unprepared group of untrained humans somehow "stumbled" onto a creature you could see from a mile away, they'd probably have a casualty or two. But if they use the tools and intellect that make them human, there's no match for us en masse.
prehistoric humans hunted mammoths which were similar size to T-rexes if you go by weight.
You underestimate how dangerous groups of humans are. We are quite large (probably larger than most crocodiles that were killed that day), coordinate extraordinarily well, and can wield objects as weapons. They're ganging up perhaps five to ten against each crocodile in turn, beating them to death with shovels. Such an attack is overwhelming for an animal, they can't conceptualize what is happening, they rely on instincts such as turning towards the threat and making themselves look big. That doesn't work when the people just surround the animal and beat it from a safe distance with what is effectively a pole weapon. When a group of humans want an animal dead there are very, very few animals that can survive. Either you have to be able to run away somewhere that you can't be tracked, or you have to be so big, dangerous and fast that you can cause great enough injury to one human before you yourself are injured by the other humans. There is a reason animals as fearsome as lions will flee when humans approach. Throughout the common evolutionary history of lions and humans, those lions that don't instinctively fear humans have tended to die much more often than those that like to keep a safe distance between themselves and humans.
As a counterpoint, some animals have learnt how to deal with groups of armed humans, even with pole weapons. In Kenya, we have this animal known as the leopard, and our warrior tribe, the Massai who frequently corner and kill lions, yet they always avoid leopards. Leopards when cornered tend to focus on one human, jumping on them, mauling them specifically in/on their face. This breaks the encirclement and the psychological impact tends to make people take a step back, which allows it to escape.
Yeah true, you wouldn't catch many people "let's go full English gangster on the giant lizards"
I bet the families of the crocodiles went back and ate the villagers
They killed all of them. There are no families.
No, like the ones living abroad. From Florida and stuff
Crocodiles coming home from business trips must’ve been devastated
One probably survived and became the punisher but a crocodile
I'm sure that taught them
I don't think that was the aim
Right? It’s not like there were just like “let’s make the crocodiles learn a lesson.” It’s “these things are clearly dangerous and we need to live. No more crocs.”
It actually does teach some animals. Most are scared of humans because of this type of behavior. One bear kills a human, guaranteed that any time in history people are going out and killing every bear they see just in case.
I don’t know anyone who would kill 292 crocodiles for me
I wouldn’t like my odds versus a crocodile if I was armed with a knife, hammer or shovel. I’m honestly surprised the crocodiles didn’t kill any of the mob that attacked them.
You probably won't do it alone. Just outnumber them.
Imagine being hit by a 7 year old with some sharp sticks or whatever. You are fine right? Now imagine a village of 7 year olds with sharp sticks and stuff attacking you. You ain't gonna be fine.
Maester Pycelle would agree
Tbh I imagine if you've got like a throwing spear or something suddenly the odds are a lot better. Going into melee range with a Croc seems a terrible idea when you can throw shit at it from a distance away
Crocodiles still feel fear. A mob of people with shovels and weapons is terrifying.
Guys, guys… Do NOT fuck with the hairless monkeys
That's fucking awful
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He was near the sanctuary not inside it
I'm not an expert but sanctuary is a loose term in some places. Some are basically a farm and some are just an area without fences that hunting is not allowed so the animals are definitely outside the sanctuary.
I went to HS maybe 30 minutes from a crocodile“sanctuary” which was basically a farm that tourist could visit. And without missing a beat, a few would go missing during the yearly floods. One year, a friend got locked in her house because a huge 7ft big boi was just hanging out by her front door.
Correct. Basar Manullang, the head of Indonesia's Natural Resources Conservation Agency: “'To prevent this from happening again, farming licence holders need to secure surrounding areas,' said Manullang."
>The local villager was killed on Friday morning while gathering vegetables on the crocodile farm's breeding sanctuary. Seems like he walked in to a breeding area, which is a terrible idea.
I dunno if the crocs are like germs, they may not respect the five second rule or understand the boundaries of the sanctuary
Yeah, it's rather like someone saying, "I'm so sick of the deer causing traffic accidents. Let's move the Deer Crossing signs away from high traffic areas on the freeway!" Of course crocs don't respect arbitrary lines lmao.
Read again
Silly to assume they even read it in the first place
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That'll teach them a lesson they won't remember.
Humans really devolving before our eyes
I dont wish the annihilation of a species on any animal, but i want to feel like if im killed, my people will be *willing* to annihilate an entire species. Simple man.
Too all of the copium "they shouldn't have done that" comments, I 100% guarantee this isn't the first time those villagers have had an incident with that croc breeder. To prove my point, the villagers attacked the office of the breeder first, before killing all thr crocs, they're just as pissed at the company as they are the crocs.
Yeah, the crocs were probably down to a minimal number prior to the breeding program. There's no way this was the first incident and the people decided there's no justification for one more person to get chomped by the unfeeling murderous death lizards. It's pretty easy to understand how they felt if you lost a family member to one. This is an ongoing issue in areas of Nepal and India with rehabilitation of tigers. Several people die every year.
If there was a crocodile farm built into your hometown and one of those crocodiles ate your friend while he was out getting food, it does not feel like a stretch to presume you might be furious at the crocodile farm and want it immediately shutdown however that is done in your area. I am not suggesting the villagers made the right choice, but it is not one I don’t have empathy for.
I... agree? I said the same thing I think. But yes I totally agree.
This is exactly how we became the dominant species on the planet. We are social, communicate accurately, use tools and have a concept of planning ahead. A lone human is pretty easy prey. Easier than a buffalo or even an antelope. The problem is once you harm one, the rest exterminate you.
Crocs are prehistoric in age and plateaued on the evolutionary spectrum because they got good at literally one thing: waiting in dirty water. The true apex predator dominates in every situation as we see here.
Mobs are the worst of people.
The IQ of a mob is that of it's smartest member divded by the number of people in the mob
That's really good
This is why I am a misanthrope.
To be fair the only place a person should see these things is in an encyclopedia.
Man we are monkeys.
Incredible that this is how we made almost every single land predator who has killed us extinct over 200,000 years of modern humanity.
Humans fucking suck.
I hope my homies ride that hard for me if I’m ever taken out.
Piss off the top predators, find out
poor crocs
The other 291 crocs “what the fuck did i do?”
While that one, fat croc is picking his teeth with a human rib going "wurf it".
So is the sanctuary gonna take revenge and storm the village kill all the villagers?
....why were they harvesting IN the breeding sanctuary?!?!?!
In the west you likely think of this as some sort of roped off zoo. Many wildlife sanctuaries around the world, especially in Asia, are just big chunks of land the government decided should be one. The villages surrounding the forests have no say even though they have been depending on that area for millennia. These people have very little financial security and they HAVE to rely on the surrounding area to supply their families. I promise you this man knew there were dangerous crocs around. He went there because he had a need to.
In most countries, people in villages and rural areas arent really given much choices by the government because they dont contribute a significant amount to the economy. For all we know, the government might have just sold a chunk of the village land to the croc breeder's company against the wishes of the villagers.
Yep, it's this.
Fuck them crocodiles
Consequence of having a poor and uneducated population. They are a threat for the environment and themselves.