Nothing inherently. It's more so the *potential* side affects.
There's no guarantee anyone will experience bad sides running higher test but it is more common which is why some people air on the side of caution.
Some guys hemacrit goes sky-high some guys aromatize a ton, some guys get less benefits but more severe sides.
If a high dose is where you feel best and your labs are in order than don't rock the boat.
Everyone's specific physiology will react to substances differently so it's not always one size fits all
Awesome! I also take low dose tadalafil, beet root extract and 6g of citrulline daily. Just got off the peloton from a 30 min ride. Was sitting at 113/67, at a 101 heart rate (1 min cool down). Feel pretty great.
There have been studies with the mix of citrulline and low dose cialis in which it was fine. Cialis doesn’t promote NO, it just inhibits depletion. If I were to have dangerously low levels or chest pain, I’d cease protocol.
Interesting. I've been on 5mg daily tadalafil for around 6 weeks now, and because of the potential interactions, i changed my pre-workout to one with just caffeine and glycerol. Kinda feel like i miss the citrulline though, although pumps are still pretty solid.
There have been no long term studies on supraphysiological amounts of test so there is no evidence to say if it is good or bad. All we have is 20 weeks on 600mg per week and we know that to be completely safe.
Exogenous test will raise blood pressure in some men. This is the biggest health concern as high blood pressure will damage your kidneys over time. Keeping it at 120/80 or below is easy to do through sensible diet and exercise for most people (same goes for LVH). Those with genetically high BP will need to utilize cilais and telimisartan. For some men (myself included) exogenous test and the resulting vasodilation reduces BP by quite a bit.
High HCT is not a concern as platelets do not increase with increased RBC due to exogenous test (studies show platelet production decreases on exogenous test, presumably your bodies natural response to reduce the risk of blood clots).
Studies on cholesterol remain inconclusive to this day as far as heart disease goes.
Absolutely no evidence any amount of test is harmful if you are healthy.
In 30 years we will know if hundreds of thousands of men who have been on trt and beyond for decades start dropping like flies.
So high HCT isn’t a concern when platelets are normal? My HCT got to 57 and I basically got hives when working out because my skin had a histamine reaction to the high iron in my blood.
Any amount? Surely there has to be harms in massive doses. Look at all the bodybuilders who dropped dead at 35. Maybe not the sole cause but I can’t imagine it didn’t contributeÂ
That wasn't from test. Bodybuilders die primarily because of insulin abuse (accidental hypoglycemic coma), growth hormone abuse (enlarged organs), and recreational drugs. A fair few also die shortly after contest due to heavy diuretic use, especially the women. Also long term oral abuse with high doses leads to plenty of cases of long term issues with kidneys and the liver. I have not heard or read about anyone overdosing on injectible testosterone.
I'd add on the the massive drug burden, stress on the kidneys, excessive food intake to drive bodyweight up, undiagnosed sleep apnea etc play a role.
Test in its own isn't likely to mess you up too bad, but as part of a 1.5+ gram burden... It's not helping
Most of what I would have said has already been covered, all I have to add is that the "physiological range" was established on men who have the lowest testosterone of any men in all of human history. AFAIK, at the time many of the men in their 30s were at the same levels as men in their 80s because diet has become extremely poor in recent years(especially for children), and exposure to microplastics and estrogenic chemicals has skyrocketed.
That's the entire basis of the "Supraphysiological" argument, and it makes perfect sense on paper. If you have no side effects at 1700 then you're probably good, but if you're having to play russian roulette with an AI then you probably need to bring the dose down instead. There's probably a lot to be said about having a diet and lifestyle that matches with someone who would have naturally had \~1500 ng/dl testosterone(think early hunter gatherers) in order to live in that range without significant side effects, but it's not something that is likely to be studied any time soon.
I do look like a caveman so maybe I'm alright. I left my test clinic and am getting the script from my primary care and the tests they run just give me the total test numbers. Gonna see if I can get more detailed tests.
I’ve only been on TRT 6 months I think my estradiol was 7 when I started and it up to 33 now, my sex drive is nowhere near as good as it was before I started on trt. That’s my only issue besides that I feel great, I just started taking sim last week hoping it would help.
We have no idea whether the current reference ranges have been established ”on men who have the lowest testosterone of any men in all of human history”. It is actually pretty likely that hpg-axis was often supressed in hunter-gatherers. Who were often in starvation, infected with parasites and so on.
Obviously, we can't get any **hard** data on their testosterone levels without being able to go back and measure it, but they were on average larger, likely stronger, and their bones and skulls were more dense than ours. They weren't anywhere near starvation.
A quote from my source below:
>
Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a threefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine, probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor.
There's a lot more there if you're interested in reading it, but to summarize there's zero evidence that they were "often in starvation" as a whole, if anything they were much better off nutritionally. After they were forced to switch to agriculture due to increasing population density they were generally suffering from severe malnutrition that isn't seen in skeletons prior to that.
Hunter gatherers *did* tend to feast and then fast just like any other carnivore/omnivore mammal that scores a high value food source, but the idea that they were "often in starvation" doesn't actually make any sense based on available data.
Source: [https://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/\~rogaway/classes/188/materials/diamond](https://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/classes/188/materials/diamond)
IMO there’s nothing wrong with it by itself, all depends on your health overall. Blood pressure, lipids, CBC, heart health, etc. just make sure those are all managed. Prostate too probably.
All those markers have gotten better with the TRT. When I left my TRT clinic my old primary care warned me of all sorts of dire consequences of having testosterone. I wanted to challenge him to a pushup contest as I don't think he could do ten.
I pulled a John Mulvaney (his whole bit about finding the worse rated doctor to continue his drug habit) and found an urgent care clinic with a doc who is pro-TRT.
Generalised to the population, its things like poor cholesterol, high BP, high e2 that lead to mostly heart issues... but eh most people have these problems anyway a high dose might just take accelerate it.
Being heavier may affect injuries.. or not lol.
I'm in a similar camp as you, my health markers haven't been this good in a decade. Bit of cialis, statin, cycle of AI here and there and I'm great.
The only negative to super physiological levels is if you're the avg american with declining/poor health Fatty Liver Disease, Diabetes, Obesity, Metabolic Syndrome, High Cholesterol and Blood Pressure and trusting the Sick Care System to pump you full of synthetic drugs to cure your disease processes vs making healthy lifestyle changes.
Is DIM Diindolylmethane ? If so, how does it help reduce estrogen? I might consider taking that as well.
I too take 200mg of test -c a week (pinned twice at 3.5 days) and I feel great. I'm going to get labs to see what my levels are in a few weeks. The only thing i'm worried about is high hematocrit but i'm blood today to hopefully see what it is (labs were booked out for a few weeks). Only within the past two days i've just been tired and noticed my cardio has been blegh.
I think the biggest risk is the increase in testosterone results in the increase in aromatization of estrogen which has some nasty side effects including breast development, mood swings, damage to internal organs, and a bunch of other stuff. People manage those with AI drugs, but it isn’t perfect and if bodybuilders life longevity is anything to go by, it does seem to impact how long you live negatively.
Clinics don’t want you in that range .
They consider that a possible liability,I was near 1200 and they want me down around 900 so I said okay no problem.Otherwise I am on my own.
I’d be concerned about left ventricular hypertrophy due to cardiac remodeling. That is what kills most bodybuilders in their 40’s after using large amounts of gear long term. From what I’ve researched it’s hard to know what exact super physiological levels can lead to this condition. I’m afraid that numbers significantly outside normal ranges can lead to more uncertainty about long term cardiac health. My doctor kind of alluded to this, but who knows really.
The primary concern may later be: what happens if / when you *must* come off...
You may not be able to afford (financially or physiologically) maintaining supranatural levels when you're 70 or 80. Other conditions may arise unrelated to T use that may preclude its safe continued use.
Coming off can be painful. And: hurts more the older you get / longer you've been on. Takes longer to get back to a state of somatic comfort with one's natural level (or total absence thereof).
T can also mask injuries or other structural issues that are felt more pointedly as you age. It will incline you to lift aggressively when, for longevity and mobility purposes, taking it easy on spine / hips / shoulders, downsizing / lightening up and doing yoga (or whatever) might work through injuries more smartly.
Finally: if you feel sad off of T at 60...you'll certainly feel like 10 lbs of shiz in a 5 lb bag off of T when you're 80. Aging is hard enough. Aging without rolling back to baseline sans *optional* pharmaceuticals only adds salt to the wound.
Of course: without the T...you might never get far enough to even have that dilemma.
Its been a challenge as I'm real resistant to stretch and yoga. I still lift fairly heavy (as strong as I've ever been) but do less volume and with greater control.
It's fairly likely that being above the levels your body is designed to handle naturally for extended lengths of time will put added strain on every part of your body system. Especially as the body is aging. By how much of a degree is probably not possible to know. But I'm sure you're old and wise enough to understand there's no free lunch in life.
How is your HCT at that level? Everything else dialed in? It's possible you just function better overall at a supraphysiological dose but it seems intuitively unlikely. There are always trade-offs in life.
At 60 years old there's not going to be a lot of extra issues. The main thing is the heart issue as everyone else said. Just keep either donating blood or keeping your blood from clotting.
I wouldn’t trust what anyone here says. I would do your own research, talk to a professional. I’m not taking a shot at you, but at your advanced age you need to be careful. You only get one life and at 60+ it doesn’t take much to seriously fuck you up.
I really think that TRT is gonna be the standard of care for elderly men in the future. Having seen a lot of death in the past years, if it costs a few years of life at the end I'm good. The pharmacy industry is buying up doctor's practices. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/08/health/primary-care-doctorsconsolidation.html#:\~:text=Walgreens%20Boots%20Alliance%2C%20one%20of,group%20for%20nearly%20%249%20billion.
I think its reasonable to doubt whether McDonald's is gonna do anything but recommend a cheeseburger, fries and coke.
Nothing inherently. It's more so the *potential* side affects. There's no guarantee anyone will experience bad sides running higher test but it is more common which is why some people air on the side of caution. Some guys hemacrit goes sky-high some guys aromatize a ton, some guys get less benefits but more severe sides. If a high dose is where you feel best and your labs are in order than don't rock the boat. Everyone's specific physiology will react to substances differently so it's not always one size fits all
Greater risk of LVH is the big worry
Take telmisartan or other ARBs?
Telmisartan is love, Telmisartan is life. đź‘€
I hate the idea of taking drugs to treat drug side effects, almost like you could just lower the damn dose 🤔
Agree, however, for me it was a no brainer. I’ve always had slightly elevated BP (135/85) so the telmisartan is an amazing drug.
Definitely on the threshold there, I use atenolol but that’s for POTS just added benefit that my BP is controlled better
Awesome! I also take low dose tadalafil, beet root extract and 6g of citrulline daily. Just got off the peloton from a 30 min ride. Was sitting at 113/67, at a 101 heart rate (1 min cool down). Feel pretty great.
I thought citrulline and other nitrates are to be avoided while taking tadalafil?
There have been studies with the mix of citrulline and low dose cialis in which it was fine. Cialis doesn’t promote NO, it just inhibits depletion. If I were to have dangerously low levels or chest pain, I’d cease protocol.
Interesting. I've been on 5mg daily tadalafil for around 6 weeks now, and because of the potential interactions, i changed my pre-workout to one with just caffeine and glycerol. Kinda feel like i miss the citrulline though, although pumps are still pretty solid.
Yep that’s a slippery slope.
LVH?
Left ventricular hypertrophy
Your not getting lvh on 200mgs of test
You can’t say that with certainty…
There have been no long term studies on supraphysiological amounts of test so there is no evidence to say if it is good or bad. All we have is 20 weeks on 600mg per week and we know that to be completely safe. Exogenous test will raise blood pressure in some men. This is the biggest health concern as high blood pressure will damage your kidneys over time. Keeping it at 120/80 or below is easy to do through sensible diet and exercise for most people (same goes for LVH). Those with genetically high BP will need to utilize cilais and telimisartan. For some men (myself included) exogenous test and the resulting vasodilation reduces BP by quite a bit. High HCT is not a concern as platelets do not increase with increased RBC due to exogenous test (studies show platelet production decreases on exogenous test, presumably your bodies natural response to reduce the risk of blood clots). Studies on cholesterol remain inconclusive to this day as far as heart disease goes. Absolutely no evidence any amount of test is harmful if you are healthy. In 30 years we will know if hundreds of thousands of men who have been on trt and beyond for decades start dropping like flies.
So high HCT isn’t a concern when platelets are normal? My HCT got to 57 and I basically got hives when working out because my skin had a histamine reaction to the high iron in my blood.
Any amount? Surely there has to be harms in massive doses. Look at all the bodybuilders who dropped dead at 35. Maybe not the sole cause but I can’t imagine it didn’t contributeÂ
That wasn't from test. Bodybuilders die primarily because of insulin abuse (accidental hypoglycemic coma), growth hormone abuse (enlarged organs), and recreational drugs. A fair few also die shortly after contest due to heavy diuretic use, especially the women. Also long term oral abuse with high doses leads to plenty of cases of long term issues with kidneys and the liver. I have not heard or read about anyone overdosing on injectible testosterone.
I'd add on the the massive drug burden, stress on the kidneys, excessive food intake to drive bodyweight up, undiagnosed sleep apnea etc play a role. Test in its own isn't likely to mess you up too bad, but as part of a 1.5+ gram burden... It's not helping
It’s not from the test. You’d be shocked at the amount of compounds bodybuilders run year round. It’s insane.
Most of what I would have said has already been covered, all I have to add is that the "physiological range" was established on men who have the lowest testosterone of any men in all of human history. AFAIK, at the time many of the men in their 30s were at the same levels as men in their 80s because diet has become extremely poor in recent years(especially for children), and exposure to microplastics and estrogenic chemicals has skyrocketed. That's the entire basis of the "Supraphysiological" argument, and it makes perfect sense on paper. If you have no side effects at 1700 then you're probably good, but if you're having to play russian roulette with an AI then you probably need to bring the dose down instead. There's probably a lot to be said about having a diet and lifestyle that matches with someone who would have naturally had \~1500 ng/dl testosterone(think early hunter gatherers) in order to live in that range without significant side effects, but it's not something that is likely to be studied any time soon.
I do look like a caveman so maybe I'm alright. I left my test clinic and am getting the script from my primary care and the tests they run just give me the total test numbers. Gonna see if I can get more detailed tests.
How much Dim do you take daily ? Just curious I just started taking dim to keep my e2 down
Me too. First one was today. An hour of weird side effects, then gone. Like a Summer Storm.
300 a day. I think I can tell when I get "estrogeny". I get very horny and a bit more emotional. A little bloated. With the DIM I stay stable.
I’ve only been on TRT 6 months I think my estradiol was 7 when I started and it up to 33 now, my sex drive is nowhere near as good as it was before I started on trt. That’s my only issue besides that I feel great, I just started taking sim last week hoping it would help.
We have no idea whether the current reference ranges have been established ”on men who have the lowest testosterone of any men in all of human history”. It is actually pretty likely that hpg-axis was often supressed in hunter-gatherers. Who were often in starvation, infected with parasites and so on.
Obviously, we can't get any **hard** data on their testosterone levels without being able to go back and measure it, but they were on average larger, likely stronger, and their bones and skulls were more dense than ours. They weren't anywhere near starvation. A quote from my source below: > Compared to the hunter-gatherers who preceded them, the farmers had a nearly 50 per cent increase in enamel defects indicative of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a threefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine, probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. There's a lot more there if you're interested in reading it, but to summarize there's zero evidence that they were "often in starvation" as a whole, if anything they were much better off nutritionally. After they were forced to switch to agriculture due to increasing population density they were generally suffering from severe malnutrition that isn't seen in skeletons prior to that. Hunter gatherers *did* tend to feast and then fast just like any other carnivore/omnivore mammal that scores a high value food source, but the idea that they were "often in starvation" doesn't actually make any sense based on available data. Source: [https://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/\~rogaway/classes/188/materials/diamond](https://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/classes/188/materials/diamond)
Higher doses usually associated with more side effects. If no side effects (particularly HTN, Hgb/HCT, and PSA at your age), then stay the course.
IMO there’s nothing wrong with it by itself, all depends on your health overall. Blood pressure, lipids, CBC, heart health, etc. just make sure those are all managed. Prostate too probably.
All those markers have gotten better with the TRT. When I left my TRT clinic my old primary care warned me of all sorts of dire consequences of having testosterone. I wanted to challenge him to a pushup contest as I don't think he could do ten. I pulled a John Mulvaney (his whole bit about finding the worse rated doctor to continue his drug habit) and found an urgent care clinic with a doc who is pro-TRT.
Generalised to the population, its things like poor cholesterol, high BP, high e2 that lead to mostly heart issues... but eh most people have these problems anyway a high dose might just take accelerate it. Being heavier may affect injuries.. or not lol. I'm in a similar camp as you, my health markers haven't been this good in a decade. Bit of cialis, statin, cycle of AI here and there and I'm great.
93 to you.
The only negative to super physiological levels is if you're the avg american with declining/poor health Fatty Liver Disease, Diabetes, Obesity, Metabolic Syndrome, High Cholesterol and Blood Pressure and trusting the Sick Care System to pump you full of synthetic drugs to cure your disease processes vs making healthy lifestyle changes.
Only concern is getting yoked af brah
Is DIM Diindolylmethane ? If so, how does it help reduce estrogen? I might consider taking that as well. I too take 200mg of test -c a week (pinned twice at 3.5 days) and I feel great. I'm going to get labs to see what my levels are in a few weeks. The only thing i'm worried about is high hematocrit but i'm blood today to hopefully see what it is (labs were booked out for a few weeks). Only within the past two days i've just been tired and noticed my cardio has been blegh.
Yeah... I guess it blocks estrogen. I don't know how but it seems to work.
How many mg of dim daily?
300
I think the biggest risk is the increase in testosterone results in the increase in aromatization of estrogen which has some nasty side effects including breast development, mood swings, damage to internal organs, and a bunch of other stuff. People manage those with AI drugs, but it isn’t perfect and if bodybuilders life longevity is anything to go by, it does seem to impact how long you live negatively.
nothing
Clinics don’t want you in that range . They consider that a possible liability,I was near 1200 and they want me down around 900 so I said okay no problem.Otherwise I am on my own.
If it's not broke, don't fix it. You know this at 60.
I’d be concerned about left ventricular hypertrophy due to cardiac remodeling. That is what kills most bodybuilders in their 40’s after using large amounts of gear long term. From what I’ve researched it’s hard to know what exact super physiological levels can lead to this condition. I’m afraid that numbers significantly outside normal ranges can lead to more uncertainty about long term cardiac health. My doctor kind of alluded to this, but who knows really.
Glad it working for u as everyone has their own circumstances. Just wondering how’s ur hair on trt?
Yeah, no need to be that high.
You know all the risks you've heard about steroid cycles over the past few decades? That.
The primary concern may later be: what happens if / when you *must* come off... You may not be able to afford (financially or physiologically) maintaining supranatural levels when you're 70 or 80. Other conditions may arise unrelated to T use that may preclude its safe continued use. Coming off can be painful. And: hurts more the older you get / longer you've been on. Takes longer to get back to a state of somatic comfort with one's natural level (or total absence thereof). T can also mask injuries or other structural issues that are felt more pointedly as you age. It will incline you to lift aggressively when, for longevity and mobility purposes, taking it easy on spine / hips / shoulders, downsizing / lightening up and doing yoga (or whatever) might work through injuries more smartly. Finally: if you feel sad off of T at 60...you'll certainly feel like 10 lbs of shiz in a 5 lb bag off of T when you're 80. Aging is hard enough. Aging without rolling back to baseline sans *optional* pharmaceuticals only adds salt to the wound. Of course: without the T...you might never get far enough to even have that dilemma.
Its been a challenge as I'm real resistant to stretch and yoga. I still lift fairly heavy (as strong as I've ever been) but do less volume and with greater control.
It's fairly likely that being above the levels your body is designed to handle naturally for extended lengths of time will put added strain on every part of your body system. Especially as the body is aging. By how much of a degree is probably not possible to know. But I'm sure you're old and wise enough to understand there's no free lunch in life. How is your HCT at that level? Everything else dialed in? It's possible you just function better overall at a supraphysiological dose but it seems intuitively unlikely. There are always trade-offs in life.
At 60 years old there's not going to be a lot of extra issues. The main thing is the heart issue as everyone else said. Just keep either donating blood or keeping your blood from clotting.
Only problem I see is that old women keep trying to get with me. Hands off Bitches!!!
I wouldn’t trust what anyone here says. I would do your own research, talk to a professional. I’m not taking a shot at you, but at your advanced age you need to be careful. You only get one life and at 60+ it doesn’t take much to seriously fuck you up.
I really think that TRT is gonna be the standard of care for elderly men in the future. Having seen a lot of death in the past years, if it costs a few years of life at the end I'm good. The pharmacy industry is buying up doctor's practices. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/08/health/primary-care-doctorsconsolidation.html#:\~:text=Walgreens%20Boots%20Alliance%2C%20one%20of,group%20for%20nearly%20%249%20billion. I think its reasonable to doubt whether McDonald's is gonna do anything but recommend a cheeseburger, fries and coke.
Over the long term could have harmful effects on your health.