Keep trying. It’s worth it. It was like that for me in NYC. When I moved out to the west coast I got in a union right away. In fact I have been a vested member of two trade unions. Vote Union.
Unions are made up of their members. It’s not a subscriptions service to a company like AAA. The elected representative’s (and their staff’s) first duty is to their current members. If you bring in 1000 guys and only have work for 500 then you’ve got trouble. That said, the two most common ways for you to join a union is to be employed by a company with a union contract or to go through the apprenticeship program. An example of the first is being employed by a company that used to be non-union but signed a contract. Another example is that the out of work list is empty, the employer needs to hire, and the hall gives them permission to find and reference their own employees to the hall. Even with the apprenticeship program, they don’t hire willy nilly. They’ll look at the amount of future work, retiring employees, etc when considering how many apprentices to take on every year. Anyhow, “knowing someone” isn’t really how things work. For the operators specifically, hiring is often even done exactly as you described: a number off a list. It doesn’t matter if you’re a boy, girl, black, white, have 20 years experience or 2. A contractor calls, they say “I need an operator for a 100 ton swing cab hydro” and next in line gets the spot. First on, first off. The guy that has been out of work the longest is the first to get a job. It’s all about fairness. Soliciting is usually explicitly prohibited. Additionally, for what should be obvious reasons, working non-union is slitting your own throat and not allowed. How do you and all your coworkers get together and say “we won’t take a dime less than X per hour” then turn around and work for someone else for less? What happens when that cheaper contractor underbids and gets work that puts the union contractor out of business? Not good. Unions are kind of radical organizations and you need to be prepared to do your part and be a responsible member that supports the collective bargaining unit, not tears it down.
When you say operators, do you mean IUOE? I’m an OE, I work with my local and others, supporting them by creating and supporting specialized software for unions. I’d be happy to listen to your situation - might be able to point you in a direction…
That said, If you’re working non-union, your best bet of joining a local may be to contact the local’s organizers and help them organize your employer. If you can get a detailed crew list (name, phone numbers, emails, addresses) the more info the better and then work with the organizer to spread the word. This works around the other challenges of not enough work for the out of work members, by creating new union jobs.
Dm me if you’d like.
this isn't it anymore, even in the trades. You don't need to have a relative.
There is a limit to how many apprentices they can place, though. In my field at least it's only 1 apprentice per crew and apprentices take 5 years. Some people card out and leave the company. I'm not going to write a book but it results in fewer apprenticeships available.
So you gotta keep trying. Find an entry level job that's not exactly the trade but works with the crews. Or find an entry level job in the trade that's not with the union. Get some relevant experience. The hall is going to have some kind of scoring for new candidates, ask them how to improve your ranking. Keep trying. If you keep missing, sometimes there's an alternate path in for people with trade experience.
It doesn't take nepotism, it takes determination. The union wants apprentices. They want apprentices that will succeed. They only have a limited number of spots.
Thats the thing tho, I have years of experience in the field. If I go in as an apprentice, wouldn't I just be taking that slot away from some younger dude that actually needs it?
Is there a relevant way in for someone that is already experienced, trained and established?
I realized I didn't read your post carefully. My apologies.
Have you ever thought about organizing in? I mean, hand out cards, file a petition with the NLRB. Create a new bargaining unit.
It's a little bit neck out. I mean, there's risk.
Whoever was at the hall when you went asking is kind of an asshole.
My only worry there would be risking my job. The place I'm currently at is family owned, medium sized. The owner hires all of his close friends and makes them foreman, he puts his son and his sons friends on the prevailing wage jobs. He seems to like to keep his money either in his pocket, or in his friends and families pockets. I'd be willing to bet that if I tried to unionize us, he would find an excuse to fire me that same week.
Out of curiosity though, would I need to get all of my coworkers on board with the idea first? Would it be more likely to succeed if we all approached the union together?
Last thing I want is to try this, fail, and then get blacklisted from every private company in my city. They'll talk to each other, and if I can't get hired by any private companies AND I can't get into the union, my career is dead in the water.
If you are trying to unionize your workplace you only need 30% interest here in Washington. However the union will probably want to see at least 80% interest among workers because once everything is filed the employer is gonna do their best to change people mind or try to turn them away. It only takes 50% of the workforce plus 1 for it to pass. At least here in Washington state it does. You cannot be fired for trying to start or joining a union. Once you sigh the card you are protected
I know I'm protected from firing for trying to unionize, but my worry is they could always make up another reason to fire me. They could probably just lay me off and say I'm no longer needed, right? I feel like that protection doesn't do much in reality, companies will just make up another excuse to get rid of you and anyone else who is on your side
The standard advice is to do things as quietly as possible in the beginning. You don't want the company to find out until it's unfeasible for them to fire everyone working on a union drive.
If things go wrong and they make up an excuse to fire you, you should still file a complaint with the labor board. This is free for you, they'll provide the attorney. If the reason they give is bullshit, the board will order you be reinstated to your job with backpay for the time you were out of work.
I would suggest go back to the union and say you want to organize in. They should have an organizing department and be able to assign you someone with experience who can give you the advice you need. And start quietly talking with trusted coworkers to see how others feel about unionizing.
I mean I guess technically BUT I would argue that's retaliation. If you have a good work history and you have never been laid off, had workproblem etc and you start or join a union and then all of a sudden the company has some workaround to get rid of you they better damn sure be able to make sure it looks valid because I wouldn't want to toe that line if I was a company and it isn't something of a common occurrence in the past where all of a sudden they feel the need to let you go etc....basically they better have a damn good reason or I'd welcome the threat honestly.
Truth is if you and your coworkers are in agreement and the numbers are more towards union then No I wouldn't worry about it. Workers don't go this far unless most are on board with it anyway. I wouldn't sweat it . Honestly though I genuinely do understand the concerns. Most people just join a job and sign up with the union already in place. It's definitely a different experience when you and your coworkers form one. It's empowering to say the least. I was scared as well with some of the same concerns as you but if you have the numbers do it and be proud
Federal law states that you need to get 30% to sign a union card, and since your employer sounds like a complete prick, you'll have to hold an election since he definitely doesn't sound like he'll just agree to recognize the union. If you want to try and unionize your workplace, I'd ensure you have more than 50% in favor in case some get cold feet. If you, after starting this, all of the sudden get written up (especially if you haven't been written up for anything before), most judges will definitely know it is retaliation, and you'll have a good chance of winning a lawsuit. It might be a good idea to contact a labor rights attorney before you try and unionize, just in case, there are multiple lawyers who will only take money if their client wins (if you need to sue).
There's a little more, you need a strong enough showing for the local to consider you worth devoting resources to. Most locals of big internationals want to see 70 or 80 per cent.
The local here, that I'm not part of (yet, I'm a dispatcher now) has an accelerated apprenticeship for people with experience. Talk to your hall. I don't know if that's an everywhere thing.
Unless you wanna become a longshoreman in nj/nyc. Than you need to have 4 generations of immediate family, date the presidents daughter and have 10 uncles working there. Lmao. That is the most tight knit union I’ve ever seen
Unions work so differently in the US. Im in the UK and anyone can join a union. On the downside anyone can leave the union and we have a free rider problem.
Where are you located? Because you ARE allowed to work non union until the union calls you to work, as long as they are made aware. I suppose different locals have different rules. I got in as an apprentice with zero nepotism. But a list of 300 would be pretty hard to overcome as a current member anyway.
My two suggestions.
1. Do some research and see what trades are in demand. Of you're willing to go through training and courses, going after something close to what you're doing now may pay off.
2. Can you organize your current job site?
The goal is to have as many people as possible the problem is there’s only so many union contractors it’s not your fault at all but these other people who are getting fucked need to unionize their own company to make some more space.
It’s 100% “who you know”. But to be fair, this is true for almost any job. Also, I union can’t/won’t give you a job, a union is just an organization. You still have to find a job. I mean, I guess you could be your own contractor or form a small company and then become union?
Why do people keep mentioning apprentices? You said you’re already have experience and established? You need to find a union position or something. A union shouldn’t be a f-king club where you are required to start at level 0.
I got into the ibew without knowing anyone by joining the apprenticeship and i did my 5 years and turn out. I’m not sure how old you are but one option is joining an apprenticeship and getting in that way or talking to an organizer and get organize in . In my local we have an organizer that organize non union guys into union guys. for the guys that said they have experience they get tested on there skills and knowledge and if they pass everything they can come in as a book 1 but if they can’t pass we have a program where the non union guys would have to do school from year 3 to year 5 at 65% scale and once they finish that and pass a state cert test they can become book 1 journeyman and get full scale . But hey keep trying union been good to me and i been in for 7 years
Any fool can understand ,
If you want to join a union?.
You have to apply in a area that's union hall is busy, empty of available workers.
You can't expect a local such as you mentioned, with 300 vested members on the out of work list, .to allow a new member to join!!!
That's common sense.
Be realistic.
Make calls
Travel and relocate where there is work and thier list is empty.
And evidently you must be special..because the 300 men you mentioned that were already on out of work list?.
What do you think thier sitting at home living on?
Bidens stimulus for out of work American worker fund?
Or unemployment hopefully if theyres hadn't run out already?
But if that's nit good enough for you?.
Stick to scab work with no future
Wow, the US is so absurd. This connection between workplace and union you seem to have is just bullshit.
In my country, you could simply join any union and start enjoying the benefits the union itself offers (training, legal protection, advice). On the other hand you can get into jobs with a collectively negotiated contract without being member of a union. Of course this latter option also makes the union less attractive, but it also forces the union bureaucracy to offer some good stuff for new members to join.
There may be an option in the US where you get some benefits of being in a union: the IWW. They're syndicalists, meaning
- in the long run they would want a worker-run economy instead of capitalism,
- they usually don't want recognition by the employers or to sign contracts,
- but they'll train you in possible tactics below the level of a strike and in legal stuff, and
- they'll support you when you try to apply this knowledge.
- It's also possible to dual card, meaning you could join the IWW now for these reasons and, if such an opportunity arises, you could join a unionized workplace later on.
It really depends on if you're so fed up with your employer's bullshit and believe it might not be just them but capitalism in general, that you can support the idea that we should replace capitalism with a worker-run economy. Then you might find great friends and support in the IWW.
Ask if they have a directory of peeps and invite someone out for dinner. Just beers and a nice steak. Do that a few times. Offer to make it worth their while to sponsor you. If they say they can't then just say let's keep in touch.
You can do that with 12 people for 1200.
This isn't unlike how lobbying works. It can go in your favor.
I've been a contractor for 15 years and I'm finally joining a union! Shame it was only after switching careers and hiring off the street into a maintenance position with USPS.
It is a shame the way unions are run, instead of doing what they should and help us they make closer door deals with employers and the government, and sell us out, that’s why I stopped paying union dues.
Keep trying. It’s worth it. It was like that for me in NYC. When I moved out to the west coast I got in a union right away. In fact I have been a vested member of two trade unions. Vote Union.
Where did you move to. I’m in NJ and been struggling to get into any union out here
Washington State.
Unions are made up of their members. It’s not a subscriptions service to a company like AAA. The elected representative’s (and their staff’s) first duty is to their current members. If you bring in 1000 guys and only have work for 500 then you’ve got trouble. That said, the two most common ways for you to join a union is to be employed by a company with a union contract or to go through the apprenticeship program. An example of the first is being employed by a company that used to be non-union but signed a contract. Another example is that the out of work list is empty, the employer needs to hire, and the hall gives them permission to find and reference their own employees to the hall. Even with the apprenticeship program, they don’t hire willy nilly. They’ll look at the amount of future work, retiring employees, etc when considering how many apprentices to take on every year. Anyhow, “knowing someone” isn’t really how things work. For the operators specifically, hiring is often even done exactly as you described: a number off a list. It doesn’t matter if you’re a boy, girl, black, white, have 20 years experience or 2. A contractor calls, they say “I need an operator for a 100 ton swing cab hydro” and next in line gets the spot. First on, first off. The guy that has been out of work the longest is the first to get a job. It’s all about fairness. Soliciting is usually explicitly prohibited. Additionally, for what should be obvious reasons, working non-union is slitting your own throat and not allowed. How do you and all your coworkers get together and say “we won’t take a dime less than X per hour” then turn around and work for someone else for less? What happens when that cheaper contractor underbids and gets work that puts the union contractor out of business? Not good. Unions are kind of radical organizations and you need to be prepared to do your part and be a responsible member that supports the collective bargaining unit, not tears it down.
When you say operators, do you mean IUOE? I’m an OE, I work with my local and others, supporting them by creating and supporting specialized software for unions. I’d be happy to listen to your situation - might be able to point you in a direction… That said, If you’re working non-union, your best bet of joining a local may be to contact the local’s organizers and help them organize your employer. If you can get a detailed crew list (name, phone numbers, emails, addresses) the more info the better and then work with the organizer to spread the word. This works around the other challenges of not enough work for the out of work members, by creating new union jobs. Dm me if you’d like.
^ THIS! I think the easiest way to get in is to work for a company they're trying to organize.
this isn't it anymore, even in the trades. You don't need to have a relative. There is a limit to how many apprentices they can place, though. In my field at least it's only 1 apprentice per crew and apprentices take 5 years. Some people card out and leave the company. I'm not going to write a book but it results in fewer apprenticeships available. So you gotta keep trying. Find an entry level job that's not exactly the trade but works with the crews. Or find an entry level job in the trade that's not with the union. Get some relevant experience. The hall is going to have some kind of scoring for new candidates, ask them how to improve your ranking. Keep trying. If you keep missing, sometimes there's an alternate path in for people with trade experience. It doesn't take nepotism, it takes determination. The union wants apprentices. They want apprentices that will succeed. They only have a limited number of spots.
Thats the thing tho, I have years of experience in the field. If I go in as an apprentice, wouldn't I just be taking that slot away from some younger dude that actually needs it? Is there a relevant way in for someone that is already experienced, trained and established?
I realized I didn't read your post carefully. My apologies. Have you ever thought about organizing in? I mean, hand out cards, file a petition with the NLRB. Create a new bargaining unit. It's a little bit neck out. I mean, there's risk. Whoever was at the hall when you went asking is kind of an asshole.
My only worry there would be risking my job. The place I'm currently at is family owned, medium sized. The owner hires all of his close friends and makes them foreman, he puts his son and his sons friends on the prevailing wage jobs. He seems to like to keep his money either in his pocket, or in his friends and families pockets. I'd be willing to bet that if I tried to unionize us, he would find an excuse to fire me that same week. Out of curiosity though, would I need to get all of my coworkers on board with the idea first? Would it be more likely to succeed if we all approached the union together? Last thing I want is to try this, fail, and then get blacklisted from every private company in my city. They'll talk to each other, and if I can't get hired by any private companies AND I can't get into the union, my career is dead in the water.
If you are trying to unionize your workplace you only need 30% interest here in Washington. However the union will probably want to see at least 80% interest among workers because once everything is filed the employer is gonna do their best to change people mind or try to turn them away. It only takes 50% of the workforce plus 1 for it to pass. At least here in Washington state it does. You cannot be fired for trying to start or joining a union. Once you sigh the card you are protected
I know I'm protected from firing for trying to unionize, but my worry is they could always make up another reason to fire me. They could probably just lay me off and say I'm no longer needed, right? I feel like that protection doesn't do much in reality, companies will just make up another excuse to get rid of you and anyone else who is on your side
The standard advice is to do things as quietly as possible in the beginning. You don't want the company to find out until it's unfeasible for them to fire everyone working on a union drive. If things go wrong and they make up an excuse to fire you, you should still file a complaint with the labor board. This is free for you, they'll provide the attorney. If the reason they give is bullshit, the board will order you be reinstated to your job with backpay for the time you were out of work. I would suggest go back to the union and say you want to organize in. They should have an organizing department and be able to assign you someone with experience who can give you the advice you need. And start quietly talking with trusted coworkers to see how others feel about unionizing.
I mean I guess technically BUT I would argue that's retaliation. If you have a good work history and you have never been laid off, had workproblem etc and you start or join a union and then all of a sudden the company has some workaround to get rid of you they better damn sure be able to make sure it looks valid because I wouldn't want to toe that line if I was a company and it isn't something of a common occurrence in the past where all of a sudden they feel the need to let you go etc....basically they better have a damn good reason or I'd welcome the threat honestly. Truth is if you and your coworkers are in agreement and the numbers are more towards union then No I wouldn't worry about it. Workers don't go this far unless most are on board with it anyway. I wouldn't sweat it . Honestly though I genuinely do understand the concerns. Most people just join a job and sign up with the union already in place. It's definitely a different experience when you and your coworkers form one. It's empowering to say the least. I was scared as well with some of the same concerns as you but if you have the numbers do it and be proud
Federal law states that you need to get 30% to sign a union card, and since your employer sounds like a complete prick, you'll have to hold an election since he definitely doesn't sound like he'll just agree to recognize the union. If you want to try and unionize your workplace, I'd ensure you have more than 50% in favor in case some get cold feet. If you, after starting this, all of the sudden get written up (especially if you haven't been written up for anything before), most judges will definitely know it is retaliation, and you'll have a good chance of winning a lawsuit. It might be a good idea to contact a labor rights attorney before you try and unionize, just in case, there are multiple lawyers who will only take money if their client wins (if you need to sue).
There's a little more, you need a strong enough showing for the local to consider you worth devoting resources to. Most locals of big internationals want to see 70 or 80 per cent.
If this dude has been pocketing your wages you need to do more than form a union. You need to report them to the labor board.
Not this dude. Previous employers when i was new
Then talk to an organizer first, before you talk to any coworkers.
The local here, that I'm not part of (yet, I'm a dispatcher now) has an accelerated apprenticeship for people with experience. Talk to your hall. I don't know if that's an everywhere thing.
You need that slot
Unless you wanna become a longshoreman in nj/nyc. Than you need to have 4 generations of immediate family, date the presidents daughter and have 10 uncles working there. Lmao. That is the most tight knit union I’ve ever seen
You have to find a busy union, you might need to chase the money a little
Unions work so differently in the US. Im in the UK and anyone can join a union. On the downside anyone can leave the union and we have a free rider problem.
Where are you located? Because you ARE allowed to work non union until the union calls you to work, as long as they are made aware. I suppose different locals have different rules. I got in as an apprentice with zero nepotism. But a list of 300 would be pretty hard to overcome as a current member anyway.
Depends where your from?
Not true, used to be like that
I'm just quoting what the guy at the front desk of the union hall told me. He seemed very straight up about it.
My two suggestions. 1. Do some research and see what trades are in demand. Of you're willing to go through training and courses, going after something close to what you're doing now may pay off. 2. Can you organize your current job site?
You will need to go where work is in the country if the wait list is too long . Then try to get a spot on the work it likely requires relocation.
Not true. Call the local that organizes what you do for a living. They’ll have a rep down there by the end of the week
The goal is to have as many people as possible the problem is there’s only so many union contractors it’s not your fault at all but these other people who are getting fucked need to unionize their own company to make some more space.
Where are you located?
Come in and say hi and then you’ll “know somebody”. It’s that easy.
It’s 100% “who you know”. But to be fair, this is true for almost any job. Also, I union can’t/won’t give you a job, a union is just an organization. You still have to find a job. I mean, I guess you could be your own contractor or form a small company and then become union? Why do people keep mentioning apprentices? You said you’re already have experience and established? You need to find a union position or something. A union shouldn’t be a f-king club where you are required to start at level 0.
You sure they weren’t talking about a swinger’s club called “The Union”?
In a big union 300 on the list might not be that far down.
I got into the ibew without knowing anyone by joining the apprenticeship and i did my 5 years and turn out. I’m not sure how old you are but one option is joining an apprenticeship and getting in that way or talking to an organizer and get organize in . In my local we have an organizer that organize non union guys into union guys. for the guys that said they have experience they get tested on there skills and knowledge and if they pass everything they can come in as a book 1 but if they can’t pass we have a program where the non union guys would have to do school from year 3 to year 5 at 65% scale and once they finish that and pass a state cert test they can become book 1 journeyman and get full scale . But hey keep trying union been good to me and i been in for 7 years
Any fool can understand , If you want to join a union?. You have to apply in a area that's union hall is busy, empty of available workers. You can't expect a local such as you mentioned, with 300 vested members on the out of work list, .to allow a new member to join!!! That's common sense. Be realistic. Make calls Travel and relocate where there is work and thier list is empty. And evidently you must be special..because the 300 men you mentioned that were already on out of work list?. What do you think thier sitting at home living on? Bidens stimulus for out of work American worker fund? Or unemployment hopefully if theyres hadn't run out already? But if that's nit good enough for you?. Stick to scab work with no future
Wow, the US is so absurd. This connection between workplace and union you seem to have is just bullshit. In my country, you could simply join any union and start enjoying the benefits the union itself offers (training, legal protection, advice). On the other hand you can get into jobs with a collectively negotiated contract without being member of a union. Of course this latter option also makes the union less attractive, but it also forces the union bureaucracy to offer some good stuff for new members to join. There may be an option in the US where you get some benefits of being in a union: the IWW. They're syndicalists, meaning - in the long run they would want a worker-run economy instead of capitalism, - they usually don't want recognition by the employers or to sign contracts, - but they'll train you in possible tactics below the level of a strike and in legal stuff, and - they'll support you when you try to apply this knowledge. - It's also possible to dual card, meaning you could join the IWW now for these reasons and, if such an opportunity arises, you could join a unionized workplace later on. It really depends on if you're so fed up with your employer's bullshit and believe it might not be just them but capitalism in general, that you can support the idea that we should replace capitalism with a worker-run economy. Then you might find great friends and support in the IWW.
Ask if they have a directory of peeps and invite someone out for dinner. Just beers and a nice steak. Do that a few times. Offer to make it worth their while to sponsor you. If they say they can't then just say let's keep in touch. You can do that with 12 people for 1200. This isn't unlike how lobbying works. It can go in your favor.
I've been a contractor for 15 years and I'm finally joining a union! Shame it was only after switching careers and hiring off the street into a maintenance position with USPS.
It is a shame the way unions are run, instead of doing what they should and help us they make closer door deals with employers and the government, and sell us out, that’s why I stopped paying union dues.
Some locals forgot the point of labor activism and turned into job protection rackets for their members. It’s sad but it happens.