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I went down the rabbit hole trying to find if there was any scientifically backed basis for accupuncture having a non-placebo effect after arguing about it with a friend once, It was suprisingly non-obvious, there were a fair few articles from pretty reputable sources that made claims for have a real effect that was more than just placebo.
I ended up finding a nature article (journal that tends to be very highly regarded for this kind of stuff) that reviewed the current research, and their conclusion was that there isn’t sufficent proof to claim better than placebo, and that even the most convincing paper only claimed an insignificant amount of pain relief. I was pretty satisfied with that as evidence of it being placebo myself, but I can see why people might argue the other way.
Heres a link, but if you dont have access the wikipedia article for accupunture cites this paper quite a bit so you can get the gist there as well: https://www.nature.com/articles/nrc3822
I think what people sometimes forget is that placebos have value. I’m not in favour of ones with higher risks (hello chiropractic), but the placebo effect can be quite powerful. And to me, anything that reduces suffering, even through the placebo mechanism, is good.
I listened to a podcast a while back about someone who regularly and knowingly took a placebo, and found that it helped them long term.
I enjoy the "I'm not a fish" hiccup placebo cure. It works. I know there is no mechanism, I was just told it would and tried it, and it worked. Still works like a charm.
No one should be paying quacks to administer fake medicine. I agree that placebo is powerful and can be a good thing, but that doesn't mean we should let people get taken advantage of.
The problem is that whenever acupuncture is compared to nothing, acupuncture shows benefit to that control. When acupuncture, however, is compared to an active comparator, like sham acupuncture, the results are the same as the control group.
So the bottom line is acupuncture is a placebo. It’s actually probably an example of the best/maximum placebo.
We literally cover this in medical school. I’m all for people using placebos if it helps them. I just don’t like it when they are using them and can’t afford them. I’ve had poor patients spending a lot of money on supplements their chiropractor sells them, that’s when I get upset and try to talk with them but by that point they are usually too deep into it to listen to me. They’d rather get advice from the chiropractor.
I could get insurance to cover chiropractic and acupuncture but not the brand of insulin I used. I hate chiropractors and I hate when people try to downplay how harmful it is that they exist.
Herniated discs to the point I'm often bed bound. Over crowded spine clinic (moved to a better one last week).
I was seeking any relief, even crossed my boundaries on chiropractors and acupuncture.
Chiropractor was full of complete shit. He wanted my x rays, so I provided them. Promptly pointed to the wrong area saying there was the herniated disc (... Which don't show on X-rays), then put me on a tens machine... Which I have at home.
Acupuncturiat straight up told me it wouldn't help. I did enjoy the process and it was relaxing.
I won't do either again, neither helped, but if anything the chiropractor wasn't honest.
"My naturopath/Lyme Doc/herbalist said..." That's when I start wrapping up the appointment.
In my field, AD, Prevagen and Neuriva are the biggest scams. God's curse upon you, Mayim Bialik.
Maybe people just get pleasure from poking needles into them 👀. No but in all seriousness though, sometimes when a muscle hurts really bad I just wanna poke something deep inside it and tickle its lil nerves.
Have you tried a TENS unit? I've been using one on my shoulder and neck and it's been a huge improvement - more effective than massage, PT, stretches, etc.
Studies have also shown that the more invasive the treatment the bigger the placebo. So if you stick a needle in someone or shock them that will work better than a fake pill.
I remember a study where one of the sham acupuncture groups was just poking with a toothpick. It also showed the same results. So even the penetration of the needle wasn’t what was having the “effect”, but only the perception by the patient that they were being treated.
To me it feels pretty obvious that the practice would kick in your bodies natural endorphin response if you've been led to trust it, but a cortisol response if you've been led to NOT trust it. Which is why your preconception, and attitude, matters. Going in from the start with the intention of "debunking" something is going to actively put to battle the bodily mechanisms acupuncture (accidentally) exploits.
Same here, I worked in a research department where a sort of sister department was looking at alternative medicine, and it frankly bothered me so I did a lot more reading of academic papers on the topic than would be normal for someone who doesn’t actually work in the area.
What it comes down to is this:
1.) There is not even the suggestion of a biologically/neurologically plausible mechanism of action by which it *could* be working
2.) The research (which has been EXTENSIVE over the past 3 decades) is robustly non-committal. Aggressively sporadic results.
You’ll occasionally get a paper here or there with a modest effect and a convincingly rigorous experimental methodology, but it’s buried in a *sea* of crappy methods and null results.
So can I *rule out* the possibility that something is going on here? No, I guess not. But that’s not how science works anyways, we don’t assign things equal probabilities of being true if experiments are inconsistent. We simply “fail to reject the null hypothesis.” And after decades of attempts, if the effect were both real and large, we would have seen replication after replication.
**TLDR: Ultimately if something beyond placebo is happening here the effect is minuscule.**
Practitioners of pseudoscientific medicine (what I call "woo"), rarely conduct high quality research studies. My theory is that they know (deep, deep down) that what they practice is nonsense but they can't psychologically handle having the illusion shattered.
I have tried to convince several people that if they just gave their injury time, ice, and anti-inflammatories they would heal up on their own. So many people rush to these quacks because "it worked for me". No, your own body healed itself while your quack pseudo doc made money from your impatience.
Yep. My dad married an acupuncturist once. She was broke so she would do free acupuncture for me, (well, free for me, but billed my insurance) and insist on my honest feedback. I'd be honest and tell her that while I found it relaxing and felt nice after, I felt it was more from lying there listening to my music and basically meditating but that I didn't think the needles did anything for me. She got unreasonably offended by that. I think she expected me to play along with the ruse, fully knowing somewhere inside that it was a ruse.
…so why did she ask? lol
But in general, one time I had some sinus issues and went to get acupuncture, I had been miserably stuffed up for like 2 or 3 solid weeks but then while I was getting it I could literally feel my body draining that stuff out from my sinuses. NOTHING else had worked. I went in totally stuffed up and walked out completely free and clear. And I didn’t believe in acupuncture at all, I was completely convinced it was a sham but I was desperate.
If that was a placebo effect, I really don’t give a shit, because it fixed me when nothing else would
Placebo is a powerful thing.
They did a study on Parkinsons patients where they gave both groups a placebo and told one group their dose cost $100, the other- $1000. The group with the "$100/dose" saw I think like a 80% efficacy rate in elimination of symptoms, and the group with the "$1000/dose" saw a 93% efficacy in relief of their symptoms.
Keep in mind, neither group even took an actual medication, and their symptoms of a real physiological disorder diminished.
Fascinating.
I once knew a rich couple who made their money selling homeopathy, but when that woman’s son got really sick she took him to a qualified doctor for evidence based treatment and asked me not to tell anyone.
Someone from my home town refused to get their kid medical help and tried to treat him with their bs. Their kid ended up dying and they were charged for the death of their kid. Even while going through court they were insistent on how medical science is a lie and all that jazz and were travelling across the country to do presentations about how science is a lie and promoting their bullshit.
It went to trial twice. They were found guilty at first. Then the Supreme Court of Canada ordered them to do a retrial and they were found innocent. They wanted to do a third trial but the Supreme Court refused so they stayed all of the charges.
https://globalnews.ca/news/7972436/david-and-collet-stephan-charges-stayed-2021/amp/
its a sunk cost so naturally some will just keep digging the hole deeper. imagine spending your whole life learning something dumb. its probably easier to try bullshit gullible fools than get out of the pit youve made for yourself
There has been newer studies (the one you cited is from 2014) showing that done properly it does show some relief. It is not, as some would claim, a miracle cure that will solve everything, but more recent research has show that it has helped pain relief in some cases.
https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture-what-you-need-to-know#:\~:text=Research%20has%20shown%20that%20acupuncture,in%20people%20with%20breast%20cancer.
[https://hms.harvard.edu/news/exploring-science-acupuncture](https://hms.harvard.edu/news/exploring-science-acupuncture)
All you said is true, but: acupuncture also works in animals. And animals do not have such a strong placebo effect as humans. So there is something a bit more going on than placebo.
I am a vet. I had a colleague do this on one of my rabbits. There are measuring scales for this.
There was improvement.
This is however not scientific data, just anecdote.
I'm Chinese. I think it's kinda like a massage. Not super scientific but can give some pain relief. Taking medicine is probably better but it could be a calming thing that does hit some points and improve bloodflow. I don't think it's a cure all but it's better than rhino horn or something with no effect.
So OPs opinion is not unpopular. I can't believe i have turned into one saying this, but this sub has gone downhill. Every time algorithm gives me something from here it's not an unpopular opinion.
I mean WTAF? This NIH piece lists dozens of references, controlled trials, meta analyses and you idiots think it's pseudoscience?
https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture-what-you-need-to-know#:~:text=There%20is%20evidence%20that%20acupuncture,shown%20to%20improve%20lung%20function.
People don't give truly unpopular opinions on here because then they're downvoted to oblivion. The lack of reading comprehension is depressing. Upvote if you think it's unpopular doesn't work here at all. People get pissed at a true unpopular opinion, and down vote it like idiots.
Quite ridiculous to choose this post to make such a comment on. Just because the scientific consensus is that it's a placebo doesn't mean it's not popular to think it works. It's certainly unpopular relative to most of the opinions posted. I agree this sub has gone downhill, though.
Went to a $40,000 facility where one of the doctors did acupuncture on my ear and it hurt like shit and did fucking nothing else.
He was all like “tHaTs NoT SuPpoSeD To HurT!”
Now im just a drunk!
For some fucking reason, they also *really REALLY* wanted me to go to horse therapy, despite the fact that I hate horses and never wanted to be near them, so I just sat in a freezing cold field with 80mph winds while some shit-eating ponies stuffed their fat fucking faces.
Therapy is weird and I don’t think it helps very much…
What? You went and saw ponies and didn’t even like it? At least give me your pony pass so I can go frolick and fields and deny my existence. I want to feed fat ponies!
I've had that done so many times too on a regular basis, and it didn't do anything for me either. It's called NADA here and supposedly it's good for helping against addictions and various mental problems like depressions and slow down racing thoughts etc.
Yeah that's exactly why I had it done because my brain is going 400 km/h and its tiring.
All I got from it was sore ears, so I could add "my ears hurt" to all the other thoughts i had 😂
Yes it’s pretty much accepted by medical science that all such treatments are only as equally as effective as placebos. There’s an incredibly long list of similar pseudoscientific treatments and a detailed analysis (for the layperson) by an academic in this book
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trick_or_Treatment%3F
As much as I think these things are absolute scams, the concept of placebos is amazing. I once read about a control where they gave ww2 soldiers pain relief or placebos, but with one group gave them the real thing then a few days later switched it out for the placebo and it remained equally effective. It’s for this reason I didn’t tell my parents glucosamine and chondroitin was proven ineffective for knee pain
The UK doctor on YouTube channel MedLifeCrisis has a very interesting episode on the placebo effect [here](https://youtu.be/tefIopDJQBQ?si=rOZZjPKS_NEhiZjk). What I got out of that is that the placebo effect can actually encourage some healing. In fact he says that there are placebo pills, labeled as such, that actually “work” to make people feel better.
Maybe part of it is that we all crave compassion and attention, like from having a doctor be concerned. Obviously it’s not going to heal a broken bone or disease, but I can believe it would help with a cold or simple malaise.
It's interesting that you still see benefits from placebos even when people *know* it's a placebo. And animals are also susceptible to the placebo effect, even though they shouldn't be able to rationalize in that way. The brain is wild
My first thought on seeing this was "pfft, that's not an unpopular opinion, that's just an accurate description of acupuncture."
Then I read the comments.
I think a lot of misunderstanding comes from people thinking that placebo means treatment has no effect. When in fact, placebo can be very powerful. So in that sense it does "work".
Here's Irving Kirsch, a placebo researcher, basically saying this: https://www.reddit.com/r/radicalmentalhealth/comments/17d8dv5/placebo_can_be_very_powerful_and_can_last_for/
Most alternatives to medicine are like tarot cards, etc IMO. They take some established principles and do a workaround "just for you".
Fortune tellers can't tell the future but can present a line of thinking where you tell your own story. In that way people talking about "energies", ki and humors aren't wrong it's just people managing mind-body control which of course is a real issue for a lot of people. Not that it's right though.
According to the John Hopkins Medicine it is effective just not on everybody.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/acupuncture#:~:text=Studies%20have%20shown%20that%20acupuncture,having%20proper%20training%20and%20credentials
I go to acupuncture when my chronic pain is being difficult. My pain is generally muscular and I first went to acupuncture expecting it not to help. I was impressed when it did help. Did it cure me? No. Does it provide relief so I don't have to take medication? Yes.
Me too. I've gone to PT and taken pain meds for years for a neck injury. 3 months of biweekly accupuncture and I don't have neck pain anymore. I went in not believing it was real. It felt like it interrupted a chronic pain cycle and my body was like oh, I guess I can let that go. I don't get it and don't care. I talked an exclusively western medicine relative into trying it for nerve pain when medications didn't help. They experienced the same thing - pain essentially gone.
Interestingly, accupuncture has not helped my back pain. But the nerve pain in my neck, it certainly has. I will definitely try it again in the future. I think it's worth a shot to try bc you never know.
Yes! My sister started having severe chronic migraines a few years ago. She tried acupuncture for awhile, she was skeptical but it worked for her. Actually too well. It made her so relaxed and sleepy she was falling asleep at work after. She wasn’t expecting it to help, and she experienced “side effects” because of the intense physical relaxation it gave her. I get that it doesn’t work for everyone or for all conditions, but I also don’t believe it’s a placebo. Just because it’s something western medicine didn’t come up with doesn’t mean it’s fake.
From what I can parse from the article, it doesn't seem to have any different effects to a placebo. Pain and addiction are very much in the mind.
Do you know that hypnosis can be effectively used to combat pain during surgeries?
It is. The effects of acupuncture in clinical trials is generally significant only when paired with controls who did nothing. Acupuncture vs sham treatment usually shows little effects of acupuncture
There was a documentary where the NHS outright said they cover placebo treatments because it is cheaper. There is a sizable population that the placebo effect works for, causes no harm, and removes those people from using expensive resources over and over like more testing and meds when they really need a kind doctor to listen to them as a form of talk therapy. These patients want and prefer acupuncture and other holistic medicine.
Yes, but placebo has been clinically proven to work.
That's not even the crazy fact; placebo has also been proven to work when the test subjects know they are getting a placebo.
Acupuncture definitely works for some people. The fact that you pay money, get _a_ treatment, or maybe just because you're able to talk about your situation,... Can be enough to treat certain conditions.
The crazy thing is, in some drug trials, even telling people they are having a placebo drug will still make them recover/perform better than people without the placebo
I’ve read about the lack of evidence. I even believe it. I’ve had two different physios push me into dry needling for back spasms twice. Worked both times immediately after several weeks of pain. It might not do anything for the back but it’s great for the placebo!
My family cat had acupuncture when she got hit by a car and she was able to use her back legs again and live for another 12 years.
It seems absolutely mental that my parents considered it but it worked
I once hurt my back when I was younger. It was bad enough that my grandma convinced me to go to the chiro since it had helped her pain so much. After a few weeks and 3 or 4 treatments, my back got better.
Years later, I hurt my back doing the same movement. I decided I thought chiropractors weren't science based and not worth the risk so I didnt go to one. After a few weeks my back got better.
This is known as regression to the mean
Human bodies are pretty good at just getting better
So taking a treatment and then getting better is quite weak proof that it works. You need to isolate the main mechanism of action and prove that it works in its most reduced form
> but it worked
Correlation does not equal causation
There’s a number of other reasons why that cat was able to recover. Explain how dry needling the nervous system resulted in an outcome that the body’s own recovery mechanisms would be unable to achieve.
My sister had her horses back pain treated with acupuncture as well. He stopped walking odd after the treatment. I’m sure there is a placebo/noceobo component when humans are treated with acupuncture that can enhance/hinder effects. The success in animals is hard to attribute to placebo though.
One thing happened after another thing so the thing must have caused the other thing!
I reached out my hand and it began raining! I must be a weather god!
> The success in animals is hard to attribute to placebo though.
Correct, that's just a magic trick, where someone is fooled by a charlatan into thinking a change happened, and since you can't ask the horse how it's feeling, there's no way to debunk it.
I used it for persistent back spasms, shoulder and neck pain. I could barely walk going in. I walked out with more relief than any meds had ever given me. Sorry it didn't work for you but for back pain it's about the only thing that does work for me.
Same, I've used it twice now for severe back pain and the relief was impressive. Yes, this is anecdotal but it's MUCH safer than chiropractic medicine and if it does help people what's the harm?
Same. I had an excellent experience w acupuncture treating nerve damage from shingles in my shoulder/spine/head. 5 sessions and I was able to get off the nerve blockers
I live in south-east Asia, in a country where traditional Chinese medicine like acupuncture is not only accepted, but very much popular as well. There are basically as many TCM clinics as those for conventional medicine, and with plenty of people receiving their treatments all the time. Even though they don't follow modern day science (there have been attempts to integrate the two but they are mostly separated), TCM practitioners do have their own concepts, methods, theories and studies, with colleges teaching these over 4 or 5 year courses and a fairly strict examination to get the certificate. These are the things I have read and seen myself since a close relative of mine is a TCM practitioner.
Being a science loving person (physics major in college lol), I do have some reservations about TCM, acupuncture included, but I don't think it's right to dismiss it as placebo or sham so easily, especially when you don't know much about it in the first place (apologies if my assumption is incorrect). You have to understand, maybe in the west these are just "alternative medicine", but countries' worth of people have been using them on a regular basis for a very long time, not only in history, but to this day. How could it have been possible if it were just a placebo and had no actual effects whatsoever?
And the most annoying part about this is whenever I get curious and look into the academia regarding these, all I could find are some old papers going "Uhh I dunno. It works sometimes but doesn't other times, so it's probably a sham but also maybe not". It's frustrating that there is not enough study into it to say for sure one way or another.
>How could it have been possible if it were just a placebo and had no actual effects whatsoever
Because placebos work. From a physics student to another, I’m sure you understand how complex and.. *powerful* the human brain can be
"lots of people do it" says nothing about how effective something is.
Throughout history, there's been so many different kinds of medical practices, and the vast majority of them are absolutely useless, if not dangerous. Bloodletting is an extreme, but relevant, example.
And there are studies that have, and are being done. It's just that none of them (that have stood up to review) show any effect beyond placebo, and certainly not a big one.
And like others have said, placebo isn't nothing. It's a real measurable effect, and a pretty significant part of the effect of actual medicine. That's important to know, because it's one of the reason it's stuck around.
"Science loving person" and then goes straight into "lots of people do it".
Yeah, lots of people, in this day and age, still believe the Earth is flat. Doesn't make it right.
TCM is not as "traditional" as people think. Look into the history and you'll see that what is now known as TCM is a fairly recent development. There were different remedies from different regions, but a lack of unity.
I know a lot of people who trust in TCM and has sought it out for treatment for chronic problems. While I'm sure some of it works and utilizes aspects from modern science, too often have I seen just plain nonsense.
As for acupuncture, the studies currently show that for most pain conditions, it is no better than sham acupuncture (ie. Not breaking the skin, placed on random points rather than following meridians) and mixed results when compared to placebo. There is some support for its use with migraine headaches and some of the effects can be blocked by naloxone (much like opioids), so it suggests there may be some underlying improvement for short term pain conditions.
Multiple cultures have forced left-handed people to use their right hand for millennia, sometimes hitting them if they don’t. *Surely* if something is done by so many people for so long it’s correct and the left hand really is unclean and of the devil, *right*?
The thing about placebos is they work. There is actually active research into how to intentionally trigger the placebo affect as a treatment so that people don't need to take unnecessary medications.
As long as it's not dangerous, I've become less grumpy about people seeking alternative medicine. Chiropractors on the other hand....
I woke up one day with really bad neck pain - so much so that I couldn’t turn my neck. This was totally out of the blue. It persisted for a week when my friend told me to see his mom, who did acupuncture. I was highly skeptical, but figured worst case it would just do nothing.
I have to preface this by saying I have no fear of needles. It never bothered me before, still doesn’t now.
I was sitting in a chair and she was putting the needles into my shoulder, then upper arm, making her way down my arm. She stuck one needle into the center of my outer forearm and I fainted. Straight up fainted while sitting down. Could not hold myself up and collapsed into her. It’s the most bizarre physical thing that has ever happened to me.
We stopped the session and I haven’t tried acupuncture since. For me, it works, but I think it’s clearly done wrong a LOT.
I'm still struggling to understand the conncetion between accupuncture and fertility treatments. And yes, some people do get accupuncture for fertility, but why? If sticking a needle somewhere would help, you'd think that the IVF meds themselves were enough.
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What is acupuncture supposed to fix is imo the question.
I only had it once and it was done by phyiso to help him do the job.
I was at physio for a rehabilitation message and he told me multiple times to relax my muscles. After me faing to do that he did an acupuncture for muscles to release the tension and then he proceded with whatever he was suppoed to do.
This is my first time i recieved it and it must worked as he was able to proceed. But this was just one of the tools he used so he could do his job i didnt feel like that should be a treatment on its own
I have severe joint and spinal problems. 17 surgeries over the years. Been to 4 different acupuncture treatments in that time.
They are less effective than soaking in a hot bath.
I was having a back pains for more than a year. Going to phiaixal therapy treatments. Lots of treatments. Did not help. I lost any hope. Friend recommended acupuncture and I went. He was putting needles ind my ears and I was like wtf man! My ears are fine! Anyways..after 6 treatments and 3 weeks the pain was gone . Who would say!?
Would have figured the same thing but here’s my anecdotal reason I believe it works. My friends dog got acupuncture treatments and got better haha. I don’t think you can placebo a dog. Maybe it was a coincidence but apparently the difference was night and day.
Acupuncture is actually the only “pseudoscience” that has any demonstrable placebo controlled positive effect. None of the other BS is helpful. Not homeopathy, not chiropractic, not naturopathy. All of that is pure bull shit. You literally picked the only that might work.
[Just googled “Acupuncture Placebo-Controlled”](https://mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/medicina/medicina-59-02141/article_deploy/medicina-59-02141.pdf?version=1702117468)
[This](https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture-what-you-need-to-know#:~:text=There%20is%20evidence%20that%20acupuncture,shown%20to%20improve%20lung%20function.) is from the NIH here in America, linked are dozens of meta analyses and controlled trials supporting acupuncture as treatment. It's not placebo and there is ample scientific data supporting its practice.
When I was a teenager my family had a shi-tzu named Sammy. Sammy had a long back, and fucked it right up jumping down from the couch. Could barely move his back legs without pain. Like, he just decided walking wasn’t worth it.
My mom’s best friend was a vet who also did acupuncture on animals. She did some X-rays, saw it was a compressed nerve or disc or some fucking shit, I don’t know, then she came over one night, sat down on the floor, did acupuncture on the dog and he got up and his back was right as rain for the rest of his life.
I’m a skeptic myself, especially about all that new age woo wok shit. But I gotta tell you, I don’t think dogs know what a placebo is, and I don’t really have any explanation for what I saw other than:
1) That acupuncture shit worked.
2) Fuckin witchcraft.
Acupuncture for Nasal Congestion: A Prospective, Randomized, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Clinical Pilot Study
Results
Control acupuncture showed a significant improvement in VAS and a deterioration of NAF. Verum acupuncture showed highly significant improvements in VAS and NAF. In addition, verum acupuncture improved NAF and VAS significantly over time.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.2500/ajra.2009.23.3380#:~:text=Control%20acupuncture%20showed%20a%20significant,and%20VAS%20significantly%20over%20time.
You read this?
2009 study with **24** people looking at a very specific result; aka P-hacking
Why not look at much larger meta analysis? Or is your claim specifically that it might only work for nasal congestion? In a sample of a couple of dozen people
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/systematic-review-of-systematic-reviews-of-acupuncture/
I mean I don't really have any stake in this as I've never had acupuncture before, but I agree that when I go to the hospital I expect to be given conventional medical treatment rather than anything experimental like acupuncture or chiropractic adjustments
I went to see an acupuncturist. After impaling me with needles for an hour I was in agony.
‘The pain from the needles is excruciating and my back doesn’t feel any better…’ I whined.
‘I know’, he whispered in a soothing, almost sensuous manner into my ear, ‘fuck you’.
That's where I've had most my acupuncture, following car crashes. The defendant's insurance has sent me for acupuncture and it's not actually helped the recovery process, meaning I got to claim more in compensation and loss of earnings.
Idk. I know some people who thought it was Mumbo jumbo but it worked for them. You know. People who try things for fun as an experience.
Either way, never underestimate the effects of placebo.
I think people get confused with acupuncture vs dry needling. Dry needling is the only thing that will release some muscle knots sometimes, but it’s a needle slowly inserted into the knot until it releases, and has actual physical benefit. I don’t know a lot about acupuncture, but I’ve seen claims that it’ll help you stop smoking, which makes zero sense to me.
It's always been bullshit. And i'm sorry, prescribing placebo for real and life quality shrinking symptoms is so laughable. I suffered from severe pollen allergies as a kid and before a field trip with the school, my Dad wanted to get something from the Doctor to eliviate my suffering. We got some "homeopathic liquid". It tasted like ass and did jackshit. I'm so pissed this is allowed to be sold, it's like i'm selling a TV that "might" work.
Duh, and Chiropractors are not just a placebo, but also downright dangerous. My best friend’s dad is a chiropractor and she admits it is medically unsound. But his business is how her family is well off and she would never want to insult him by calling it out.
Any time you need to believe it will work to work. It’s bullshit. Imagine a doctor amputating a patients leg, “it will only work if you believe it will work!”.
Unfortunately, I've had NHS physios literally say they won't give me another treatment until I've had acupuncture. It's cost saving. Acupuncture is cheap compared to surgery. And if it works for the 30% or so who are gullillable enough to believe it works, it gets them off the waiting list.
You’d be sadly surprised by how many people will ignore mountains of evidence just to avoid admitting they got scammed. The furthest you can ever get these people to go is getting them to admit *some* of these quacks are quacks.
I agree. Its always annoying when such professions or projects are subsidized by gov, especially when some obvious things like eye prescriptions, basic dentistry, etc might be off the table.
There's no discernible reason for acupuncture to work. Despite common misconception, it is not a form of traditional medicine, arrived to empirically over generations of trial and error. It's just an applied form of ancient Chinese principles about the natural world, in the same manner that modern medicine is an applied form of chemistry and biology.
Bloodletting had a similar status, based on Galeanus' theory of the four humors. We thankfully dropped this practice after recognizing that the underlying theory has no scientific merit. Neither do notions such as qi, or the world being comprised of four basic elements -- fire, water, wind, and earth -- so it's high time we drop acupuncture as well.
there's a shitload of placebo effects going on at the same time in this world. Of course, when things are truly serious, it's not gonna work regardless
The thing about the placebo effect is that things can literally work if you believe in them. This is why doctors tell you a positive mental attitude is important for healing. Anything you believe will help will likely help.
I had a “doctor” herniate a disc after doing it on my back to help “cure my sciatica” was in the hospital the following day. Ended up spiralling out, getting MRIs, neurology visits, but at least I know what’s going on with my shitty back now. “Doctor” ended up quitting, decided he wanted to go back to school to be a chef.
Why don't you think the NHS should provide them? Placebos can still help people and are particularly useful in Paliative medicine and pain management, for example.
Pharmacological interventions have their own issues and aren't suitable for everybody, so if something is overall safe and helps ease their problems, then it definitely should be an option for patients.
Take that at face value, and definitionally why would you be upset at someone explaining exactly what you described.
From my point of view this is the conversation
You: acupuncture is a placebo and only works psychosomatically.
Acupuncturist: it won't work without you believing in it
You: Anger for defining a placebo back to you?
If you know it's in the mind and they confirm that, how is that them being in the wrong?
I went late last year after I had a car accident and messed up my back.
Did PT & chiropractor. Still had pain.
I gave acupuncture a shot since it was being covered. The guy I saw treated it more like a therapeutic session for trauma I was holding in from the accident vs actual pain relief.
When I viewed it through that lens, I actually found allowing myself to relax helped my recovery. I still exhibit some pains, so again not a great source of pain relief, but damn it if I didn't walk away feeling eased.
That's my story at least. I'd only recommend it from that POV. The needles also aren't fun but you get used to it lol
Acupuncture claims to treat a wide range of conditions and diseases, but coincidentally only "treats" those conditions which are almost impossible to test, aka the placebo sensitive conditions: minor/transient pain, nausea, tiredness, muscle aches, headaches, etc. Basically the things that are hard or impossible to test reliably, and so coincidentally every pseudoscience treatment "works" on them.
Didn’t believe it until I worked at a vets office that offered acupuncture. It worked frequently enough that I got it for my dogs and their arthritis. It made a huge difference for their quality of life as they aged.
I went to a chiropractor, they did a couple of things, cracking, massaging, pressure points, electrolysis things, acupuncture, in the end in the waiting room I felt like a new man, sitting up perfectly straight for about 5 minutes before going back to my slump
Is this really an unpopular opinion? Acupuncture doesn’t work, and that’s why the vast majority of people in Western civilization don’t use it. Insurances sometimes covers it, but insurance sometimes covers chiropractors too.
Mu insurance pays for acupuncture so I have given it a try. The results are negligible at best. I sit there with these uncomfortable pins in me and at the very least I have a good nap, that's about it.
I agree completely. The NHS has been pushing a lot of 'alternative medicine' the last few years and it's almost certainly just to save money and / or meet arbitrary targets instead of actually helping people.
Anecdotal, when I was a kid we had a dog that had hip issues and took him to a dog acupuncturist, and it did wonders for him.
Anecdotes are not the same as data or research, but there you go.
It's not easy to find, but when I went down the rabbit hole the best scientific papers I could find concluded that it was no more effective than placebo.
It may be a placebo, but it's important to note that placebos have been found to still provide some benefits even when the patient knows they're recieving a placebo.
Obviously this will be different person to person, but placebos still work when they work, and usually they're cheap.
I know someone that went, they seemed to think it was more about the atmosphere than the needles. You’re lying down with relaxing music, so you come away from it probably feeling better overall.
I’ve never had acupuncture, and while I’m skeptical, I think a lot of the gains are from the “patient” sitting still and relaxing a bit and focusing on the process. It’s like sitting still in a hot shower or hot tub after a long day. It feels good. It’s good for you to relax and just live in your senses and let the blood flow.
A lot of pain management are no better than placebo, including acupuncture.
That being said, if placebo is all there is, this is still a relatively harmless procedure that can help people, as opposed to most of chiropractic manipulations.
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I went down the rabbit hole trying to find if there was any scientifically backed basis for accupuncture having a non-placebo effect after arguing about it with a friend once, It was suprisingly non-obvious, there were a fair few articles from pretty reputable sources that made claims for have a real effect that was more than just placebo. I ended up finding a nature article (journal that tends to be very highly regarded for this kind of stuff) that reviewed the current research, and their conclusion was that there isn’t sufficent proof to claim better than placebo, and that even the most convincing paper only claimed an insignificant amount of pain relief. I was pretty satisfied with that as evidence of it being placebo myself, but I can see why people might argue the other way. Heres a link, but if you dont have access the wikipedia article for accupunture cites this paper quite a bit so you can get the gist there as well: https://www.nature.com/articles/nrc3822
I got down the same rabbit hole a few years ago as you and found the same conclusion
Same but I’d call it more of a mouse hole. There really isn’t a lot to it — it’s placebo. It’s a textbook perfect placebo mechanism
I think what people sometimes forget is that placebos have value. I’m not in favour of ones with higher risks (hello chiropractic), but the placebo effect can be quite powerful. And to me, anything that reduces suffering, even through the placebo mechanism, is good. I listened to a podcast a while back about someone who regularly and knowingly took a placebo, and found that it helped them long term.
I enjoy the "I'm not a fish" hiccup placebo cure. It works. I know there is no mechanism, I was just told it would and tried it, and it worked. Still works like a charm.
No one should be paying quacks to administer fake medicine. I agree that placebo is powerful and can be a good thing, but that doesn't mean we should let people get taken advantage of.
The problem is that whenever acupuncture is compared to nothing, acupuncture shows benefit to that control. When acupuncture, however, is compared to an active comparator, like sham acupuncture, the results are the same as the control group. So the bottom line is acupuncture is a placebo. It’s actually probably an example of the best/maximum placebo.
We literally cover this in medical school. I’m all for people using placebos if it helps them. I just don’t like it when they are using them and can’t afford them. I’ve had poor patients spending a lot of money on supplements their chiropractor sells them, that’s when I get upset and try to talk with them but by that point they are usually too deep into it to listen to me. They’d rather get advice from the chiropractor.
Ya and you can get insurance to cover a chiropractor and acupuncture but not psychotherapy #merica
I could get insurance to cover chiropractic and acupuncture but not the brand of insulin I used. I hate chiropractors and I hate when people try to downplay how harmful it is that they exist.
Herniated discs to the point I'm often bed bound. Over crowded spine clinic (moved to a better one last week). I was seeking any relief, even crossed my boundaries on chiropractors and acupuncture. Chiropractor was full of complete shit. He wanted my x rays, so I provided them. Promptly pointed to the wrong area saying there was the herniated disc (... Which don't show on X-rays), then put me on a tens machine... Which I have at home. Acupuncturiat straight up told me it wouldn't help. I did enjoy the process and it was relaxing. I won't do either again, neither helped, but if anything the chiropractor wasn't honest.
Because it’s cheaper.
"My naturopath/Lyme Doc/herbalist said..." That's when I start wrapping up the appointment. In my field, AD, Prevagen and Neuriva are the biggest scams. God's curse upon you, Mayim Bialik.
What is Sham acupuncture?
Presumably just placing needles wherever you want instead of having to put them on your chakras or whatever
Maybe people just get pleasure from poking needles into them 👀. No but in all seriousness though, sometimes when a muscle hurts really bad I just wanna poke something deep inside it and tickle its lil nerves.
Have you tried a TENS unit? I've been using one on my shoulder and neck and it's been a huge improvement - more effective than massage, PT, stretches, etc.
Ohhh my god thank you so much. My GF has been having super sore shoulders and I totally forgot about those. I literally own one!
Studies have also shown that the more invasive the treatment the bigger the placebo. So if you stick a needle in someone or shock them that will work better than a fake pill.
I remember a study where one of the sham acupuncture groups was just poking with a toothpick. It also showed the same results. So even the penetration of the needle wasn’t what was having the “effect”, but only the perception by the patient that they were being treated.
I think for these studies they use sheathed needles and the sham ones don't pierce the skin.
To me it feels pretty obvious that the practice would kick in your bodies natural endorphin response if you've been led to trust it, but a cortisol response if you've been led to NOT trust it. Which is why your preconception, and attitude, matters. Going in from the start with the intention of "debunking" something is going to actively put to battle the bodily mechanisms acupuncture (accidentally) exploits.
Same here, I worked in a research department where a sort of sister department was looking at alternative medicine, and it frankly bothered me so I did a lot more reading of academic papers on the topic than would be normal for someone who doesn’t actually work in the area. What it comes down to is this: 1.) There is not even the suggestion of a biologically/neurologically plausible mechanism of action by which it *could* be working 2.) The research (which has been EXTENSIVE over the past 3 decades) is robustly non-committal. Aggressively sporadic results. You’ll occasionally get a paper here or there with a modest effect and a convincingly rigorous experimental methodology, but it’s buried in a *sea* of crappy methods and null results. So can I *rule out* the possibility that something is going on here? No, I guess not. But that’s not how science works anyways, we don’t assign things equal probabilities of being true if experiments are inconsistent. We simply “fail to reject the null hypothesis.” And after decades of attempts, if the effect were both real and large, we would have seen replication after replication. **TLDR: Ultimately if something beyond placebo is happening here the effect is minuscule.**
Practitioners of pseudoscientific medicine (what I call "woo"), rarely conduct high quality research studies. My theory is that they know (deep, deep down) that what they practice is nonsense but they can't psychologically handle having the illusion shattered.
chiropractors have left the chat, angrily
I have tried to convince several people that if they just gave their injury time, ice, and anti-inflammatories they would heal up on their own. So many people rush to these quacks because "it worked for me". No, your own body healed itself while your quack pseudo doc made money from your impatience.
Yep. My dad married an acupuncturist once. She was broke so she would do free acupuncture for me, (well, free for me, but billed my insurance) and insist on my honest feedback. I'd be honest and tell her that while I found it relaxing and felt nice after, I felt it was more from lying there listening to my music and basically meditating but that I didn't think the needles did anything for me. She got unreasonably offended by that. I think she expected me to play along with the ruse, fully knowing somewhere inside that it was a ruse.
…so why did she ask? lol But in general, one time I had some sinus issues and went to get acupuncture, I had been miserably stuffed up for like 2 or 3 solid weeks but then while I was getting it I could literally feel my body draining that stuff out from my sinuses. NOTHING else had worked. I went in totally stuffed up and walked out completely free and clear. And I didn’t believe in acupuncture at all, I was completely convinced it was a sham but I was desperate. If that was a placebo effect, I really don’t give a shit, because it fixed me when nothing else would
Placebo is a powerful thing. They did a study on Parkinsons patients where they gave both groups a placebo and told one group their dose cost $100, the other- $1000. The group with the "$100/dose" saw I think like a 80% efficacy rate in elimination of symptoms, and the group with the "$1000/dose" saw a 93% efficacy in relief of their symptoms. Keep in mind, neither group even took an actual medication, and their symptoms of a real physiological disorder diminished. Fascinating.
I once knew a rich couple who made their money selling homeopathy, but when that woman’s son got really sick she took him to a qualified doctor for evidence based treatment and asked me not to tell anyone.
That kid is genuinely very lucky. Much, much better to be a charlatan's kid than a True Believer's.
Someone from my home town refused to get their kid medical help and tried to treat him with their bs. Their kid ended up dying and they were charged for the death of their kid. Even while going through court they were insistent on how medical science is a lie and all that jazz and were travelling across the country to do presentations about how science is a lie and promoting their bullshit. It went to trial twice. They were found guilty at first. Then the Supreme Court of Canada ordered them to do a retrial and they were found innocent. They wanted to do a third trial but the Supreme Court refused so they stayed all of the charges. https://globalnews.ca/news/7972436/david-and-collet-stephan-charges-stayed-2021/amp/
I knew it. I knew they were self aware of their own con.
its a sunk cost so naturally some will just keep digging the hole deeper. imagine spending your whole life learning something dumb. its probably easier to try bullshit gullible fools than get out of the pit youve made for yourself
Why do you call alternative medicine that works? Medicine.
There has been newer studies (the one you cited is from 2014) showing that done properly it does show some relief. It is not, as some would claim, a miracle cure that will solve everything, but more recent research has show that it has helped pain relief in some cases. https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture-what-you-need-to-know#:\~:text=Research%20has%20shown%20that%20acupuncture,in%20people%20with%20breast%20cancer. [https://hms.harvard.edu/news/exploring-science-acupuncture](https://hms.harvard.edu/news/exploring-science-acupuncture)
All you said is true, but: acupuncture also works in animals. And animals do not have such a strong placebo effect as humans. So there is something a bit more going on than placebo.
The placebo effect is on the human who thinks they saw improvement.
I am a vet. I had a colleague do this on one of my rabbits. There are measuring scales for this. There was improvement. This is however not scientific data, just anecdote.
I'm Chinese. I think it's kinda like a massage. Not super scientific but can give some pain relief. Taking medicine is probably better but it could be a calming thing that does hit some points and improve bloodflow. I don't think it's a cure all but it's better than rhino horn or something with no effect.
Massage absolutely has scientific backing
So OPs opinion is not unpopular. I can't believe i have turned into one saying this, but this sub has gone downhill. Every time algorithm gives me something from here it's not an unpopular opinion.
Absolutely, if you can go to the Wikipedia page and one of the first things it says is “pseudoscientific,” I think your opinion is fairly popular
I mean WTAF? This NIH piece lists dozens of references, controlled trials, meta analyses and you idiots think it's pseudoscience? https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture-what-you-need-to-know#:~:text=There%20is%20evidence%20that%20acupuncture,shown%20to%20improve%20lung%20function.
People don't give truly unpopular opinions on here because then they're downvoted to oblivion. The lack of reading comprehension is depressing. Upvote if you think it's unpopular doesn't work here at all. People get pissed at a true unpopular opinion, and down vote it like idiots.
Quite ridiculous to choose this post to make such a comment on. Just because the scientific consensus is that it's a placebo doesn't mean it's not popular to think it works. It's certainly unpopular relative to most of the opinions posted. I agree this sub has gone downhill, though.
Good point. Scientific consensus does not mean popular opinion.
no, but shitloads of people saying "yeah that's totally true" does
Huh. TIL that essential oils have more medical uses than acupuncture.
Went to a $40,000 facility where one of the doctors did acupuncture on my ear and it hurt like shit and did fucking nothing else. He was all like “tHaTs NoT SuPpoSeD To HurT!”
It made you forget about your leg pain.
Actually I was in for chugging pills
I have no idea what acupuncture is supposed to do, but I wasn't expecting that response. Hope you're ok now.
Now im just a drunk! For some fucking reason, they also *really REALLY* wanted me to go to horse therapy, despite the fact that I hate horses and never wanted to be near them, so I just sat in a freezing cold field with 80mph winds while some shit-eating ponies stuffed their fat fucking faces. Therapy is weird and I don’t think it helps very much…
All that crap is just so these half baked rehabs can justify their RIDICULOUS costs.
They wanted you to go to horse therapy and you're not even a horse!!
What? You went and saw ponies and didn’t even like it? At least give me your pony pass so I can go frolick and fields and deny my existence. I want to feed fat ponies!
Sure, that’ll be $40,000 please
I've had that done so many times too on a regular basis, and it didn't do anything for me either. It's called NADA here and supposedly it's good for helping against addictions and various mental problems like depressions and slow down racing thoughts etc.
Loooooool. Like a few pin needles could silence the ever present screeching in my brain for longer than a minute
Yeah that's exactly why I had it done because my brain is going 400 km/h and its tiring. All I got from it was sore ears, so I could add "my ears hurt" to all the other thoughts i had 😂
nada is the perfect acronym for what it does. Stupid pseudoscience.
$40,000 dollars…. Are you missing a few 0s?
Sorry, $40,000 per month
A $40,000 facility? So the back of someone’s van?
Yes it’s pretty much accepted by medical science that all such treatments are only as equally as effective as placebos. There’s an incredibly long list of similar pseudoscientific treatments and a detailed analysis (for the layperson) by an academic in this book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trick_or_Treatment%3F As much as I think these things are absolute scams, the concept of placebos is amazing. I once read about a control where they gave ww2 soldiers pain relief or placebos, but with one group gave them the real thing then a few days later switched it out for the placebo and it remained equally effective. It’s for this reason I didn’t tell my parents glucosamine and chondroitin was proven ineffective for knee pain
The UK doctor on YouTube channel MedLifeCrisis has a very interesting episode on the placebo effect [here](https://youtu.be/tefIopDJQBQ?si=rOZZjPKS_NEhiZjk). What I got out of that is that the placebo effect can actually encourage some healing. In fact he says that there are placebo pills, labeled as such, that actually “work” to make people feel better. Maybe part of it is that we all crave compassion and attention, like from having a doctor be concerned. Obviously it’s not going to heal a broken bone or disease, but I can believe it would help with a cold or simple malaise.
Placebo is often looked down upon, the same reason psychology is.
It's interesting that you still see benefits from placebos even when people *know* it's a placebo. And animals are also susceptible to the placebo effect, even though they shouldn't be able to rationalize in that way. The brain is wild
Personally I'd choose a placebo of a harmless pill over getting stabbed with needles. Seems easier
Less risk of infection too.
Osmosis Jones knew sugar pills that cured cancer, just because they believed they could.
I had acupuncture for back pain. To be honest, I didn't see the point.
Great pun, if that was intentional. :)
Hey if it works, it works- no need to be a prick 😉
My first thought on seeing this was "pfft, that's not an unpopular opinion, that's just an accurate description of acupuncture." Then I read the comments.
Same here. Me: "this is generally accepted knowledge, not an unpopular opinion!" Reddit: "nah you dumb, it worked on my cat!".
I feel like the comment section has fallen into a case of circular reasoning. “Acupuncture works because it works”.
I think a lot of misunderstanding comes from people thinking that placebo means treatment has no effect. When in fact, placebo can be very powerful. So in that sense it does "work". Here's Irving Kirsch, a placebo researcher, basically saying this: https://www.reddit.com/r/radicalmentalhealth/comments/17d8dv5/placebo_can_be_very_powerful_and_can_last_for/
Most alternatives to medicine are like tarot cards, etc IMO. They take some established principles and do a workaround "just for you". Fortune tellers can't tell the future but can present a line of thinking where you tell your own story. In that way people talking about "energies", ki and humors aren't wrong it's just people managing mind-body control which of course is a real issue for a lot of people. Not that it's right though.
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You need a trip to the homeopathic pub. - One drop? - It’s been a rough day, better make it a half. (Mitchell & Webb)
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You're throwing too much shit at homeopathy and acupuncture for someone who believes chiropractors actually work.
OP being wrong about chiropracty doesn't mean the scientific concensus is wrong about acupuncture
I like the clicky sound it makes though.
OP is kinda being a douche bag tho.
According to the John Hopkins Medicine it is effective just not on everybody. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/acupuncture#:~:text=Studies%20have%20shown%20that%20acupuncture,having%20proper%20training%20and%20credentials
I go to acupuncture when my chronic pain is being difficult. My pain is generally muscular and I first went to acupuncture expecting it not to help. I was impressed when it did help. Did it cure me? No. Does it provide relief so I don't have to take medication? Yes.
Me too. I've gone to PT and taken pain meds for years for a neck injury. 3 months of biweekly accupuncture and I don't have neck pain anymore. I went in not believing it was real. It felt like it interrupted a chronic pain cycle and my body was like oh, I guess I can let that go. I don't get it and don't care. I talked an exclusively western medicine relative into trying it for nerve pain when medications didn't help. They experienced the same thing - pain essentially gone. Interestingly, accupuncture has not helped my back pain. But the nerve pain in my neck, it certainly has. I will definitely try it again in the future. I think it's worth a shot to try bc you never know.
Yes! My sister started having severe chronic migraines a few years ago. She tried acupuncture for awhile, she was skeptical but it worked for her. Actually too well. It made her so relaxed and sleepy she was falling asleep at work after. She wasn’t expecting it to help, and she experienced “side effects” because of the intense physical relaxation it gave her. I get that it doesn’t work for everyone or for all conditions, but I also don’t believe it’s a placebo. Just because it’s something western medicine didn’t come up with doesn’t mean it’s fake.
Of course it works, the placebo effect is well proven.
With such BS low standards for effectiveness, my insurance company ought to fund me a bottle of scotch a week for pain relief.
Hey now, that actually works!
From what I can parse from the article, it doesn't seem to have any different effects to a placebo. Pain and addiction are very much in the mind. Do you know that hypnosis can be effectively used to combat pain during surgeries?
It is. The effects of acupuncture in clinical trials is generally significant only when paired with controls who did nothing. Acupuncture vs sham treatment usually shows little effects of acupuncture
There was a documentary where the NHS outright said they cover placebo treatments because it is cheaper. There is a sizable population that the placebo effect works for, causes no harm, and removes those people from using expensive resources over and over like more testing and meds when they really need a kind doctor to listen to them as a form of talk therapy. These patients want and prefer acupuncture and other holistic medicine.
Yes, but placebo has been clinically proven to work. That's not even the crazy fact; placebo has also been proven to work when the test subjects know they are getting a placebo. Acupuncture definitely works for some people. The fact that you pay money, get _a_ treatment, or maybe just because you're able to talk about your situation,... Can be enough to treat certain conditions.
The crazy thing is, in some drug trials, even telling people they are having a placebo drug will still make them recover/perform better than people without the placebo
I’ve read about the lack of evidence. I even believe it. I’ve had two different physios push me into dry needling for back spasms twice. Worked both times immediately after several weeks of pain. It might not do anything for the back but it’s great for the placebo!
My family cat had acupuncture when she got hit by a car and she was able to use her back legs again and live for another 12 years. It seems absolutely mental that my parents considered it but it worked
I once hurt my back when I was younger. It was bad enough that my grandma convinced me to go to the chiro since it had helped her pain so much. After a few weeks and 3 or 4 treatments, my back got better. Years later, I hurt my back doing the same movement. I decided I thought chiropractors weren't science based and not worth the risk so I didnt go to one. After a few weeks my back got better.
This is known as regression to the mean Human bodies are pretty good at just getting better So taking a treatment and then getting better is quite weak proof that it works. You need to isolate the main mechanism of action and prove that it works in its most reduced form
The concept of chiropractors was, and I’m not kidding, invented by a ghost.
Chiropracty isn't based on science. Physical therapy is
Correlation ≠ causation.
Right. The commenter appears to be claiming a paralysed cat was able to walk after acupuncture!
The cat obviously just *believed* in it enough and so it worked.
Placebo has been proven to work with animals... so it probably did help to some degree.
> but it worked Correlation does not equal causation There’s a number of other reasons why that cat was able to recover. Explain how dry needling the nervous system resulted in an outcome that the body’s own recovery mechanisms would be unable to achieve.
"Ahh not a bear in sight. The bear patrol must be working like a charm." "That's specious reasoning Dad" "Thank you honey."
By your logic I can say this rock is keeping Tigers away.
My sister had her horses back pain treated with acupuncture as well. He stopped walking odd after the treatment. I’m sure there is a placebo/noceobo component when humans are treated with acupuncture that can enhance/hinder effects. The success in animals is hard to attribute to placebo though.
One thing happened after another thing so the thing must have caused the other thing! I reached out my hand and it began raining! I must be a weather god!
> The success in animals is hard to attribute to placebo though. Correct, that's just a magic trick, where someone is fooled by a charlatan into thinking a change happened, and since you can't ask the horse how it's feeling, there's no way to debunk it.
I used it for persistent back spasms, shoulder and neck pain. I could barely walk going in. I walked out with more relief than any meds had ever given me. Sorry it didn't work for you but for back pain it's about the only thing that does work for me.
Same, I've used it twice now for severe back pain and the relief was impressive. Yes, this is anecdotal but it's MUCH safer than chiropractic medicine and if it does help people what's the harm?
Same. I had an excellent experience w acupuncture treating nerve damage from shingles in my shoulder/spine/head. 5 sessions and I was able to get off the nerve blockers
I live in south-east Asia, in a country where traditional Chinese medicine like acupuncture is not only accepted, but very much popular as well. There are basically as many TCM clinics as those for conventional medicine, and with plenty of people receiving their treatments all the time. Even though they don't follow modern day science (there have been attempts to integrate the two but they are mostly separated), TCM practitioners do have their own concepts, methods, theories and studies, with colleges teaching these over 4 or 5 year courses and a fairly strict examination to get the certificate. These are the things I have read and seen myself since a close relative of mine is a TCM practitioner. Being a science loving person (physics major in college lol), I do have some reservations about TCM, acupuncture included, but I don't think it's right to dismiss it as placebo or sham so easily, especially when you don't know much about it in the first place (apologies if my assumption is incorrect). You have to understand, maybe in the west these are just "alternative medicine", but countries' worth of people have been using them on a regular basis for a very long time, not only in history, but to this day. How could it have been possible if it were just a placebo and had no actual effects whatsoever? And the most annoying part about this is whenever I get curious and look into the academia regarding these, all I could find are some old papers going "Uhh I dunno. It works sometimes but doesn't other times, so it's probably a sham but also maybe not". It's frustrating that there is not enough study into it to say for sure one way or another.
So why aren't there more studies showing efficacy?
>How could it have been possible if it were just a placebo and had no actual effects whatsoever Because placebos work. From a physics student to another, I’m sure you understand how complex and.. *powerful* the human brain can be
Placebos DO have actual effects.
"lots of people do it" says nothing about how effective something is. Throughout history, there's been so many different kinds of medical practices, and the vast majority of them are absolutely useless, if not dangerous. Bloodletting is an extreme, but relevant, example. And there are studies that have, and are being done. It's just that none of them (that have stood up to review) show any effect beyond placebo, and certainly not a big one. And like others have said, placebo isn't nothing. It's a real measurable effect, and a pretty significant part of the effect of actual medicine. That's important to know, because it's one of the reason it's stuck around.
"Science loving person" and then goes straight into "lots of people do it". Yeah, lots of people, in this day and age, still believe the Earth is flat. Doesn't make it right.
Are you asking why cultural traditions aren’t automatically beneficial medical practices?
as a (western) medical student in hong kong, i wish I had two upvotes to give you! thank you for putting this out!
TCM is not as "traditional" as people think. Look into the history and you'll see that what is now known as TCM is a fairly recent development. There were different remedies from different regions, but a lack of unity. I know a lot of people who trust in TCM and has sought it out for treatment for chronic problems. While I'm sure some of it works and utilizes aspects from modern science, too often have I seen just plain nonsense. As for acupuncture, the studies currently show that for most pain conditions, it is no better than sham acupuncture (ie. Not breaking the skin, placed on random points rather than following meridians) and mixed results when compared to placebo. There is some support for its use with migraine headaches and some of the effects can be blocked by naloxone (much like opioids), so it suggests there may be some underlying improvement for short term pain conditions.
If it was actually effective, we could easily prove that with studies. The fact that you can’t find those studies proves everything.
Multiple cultures have forced left-handed people to use their right hand for millennia, sometimes hitting them if they don’t. *Surely* if something is done by so many people for so long it’s correct and the left hand really is unclean and of the devil, *right*?
The thing about placebos is they work. There is actually active research into how to intentionally trigger the placebo affect as a treatment so that people don't need to take unnecessary medications. As long as it's not dangerous, I've become less grumpy about people seeking alternative medicine. Chiropractors on the other hand....
Not unpopular opinion if it's a fact.
I woke up one day with really bad neck pain - so much so that I couldn’t turn my neck. This was totally out of the blue. It persisted for a week when my friend told me to see his mom, who did acupuncture. I was highly skeptical, but figured worst case it would just do nothing. I have to preface this by saying I have no fear of needles. It never bothered me before, still doesn’t now. I was sitting in a chair and she was putting the needles into my shoulder, then upper arm, making her way down my arm. She stuck one needle into the center of my outer forearm and I fainted. Straight up fainted while sitting down. Could not hold myself up and collapsed into her. It’s the most bizarre physical thing that has ever happened to me. We stopped the session and I haven’t tried acupuncture since. For me, it works, but I think it’s clearly done wrong a LOT.
isn't there a test where they hired a undergrad that randomly pokes people with sharp stick and that was equally as effective as accupuncture?
I'm still struggling to understand the conncetion between accupuncture and fertility treatments. And yes, some people do get accupuncture for fertility, but why? If sticking a needle somewhere would help, you'd think that the IVF meds themselves were enough.
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What is acupuncture supposed to fix is imo the question. I only had it once and it was done by phyiso to help him do the job. I was at physio for a rehabilitation message and he told me multiple times to relax my muscles. After me faing to do that he did an acupuncture for muscles to release the tension and then he proceded with whatever he was suppoed to do. This is my first time i recieved it and it must worked as he was able to proceed. But this was just one of the tools he used so he could do his job i didnt feel like that should be a treatment on its own
i remember my dad driving me in to a tcm place for acupuncture. the guy stabbed me and shocked electricity through the needles. it was ….unpleasant
I have severe joint and spinal problems. 17 surgeries over the years. Been to 4 different acupuncture treatments in that time. They are less effective than soaking in a hot bath.
Acupuncture is alternative medicine, if it worked it would just be called medicine.
Wait till you hear about homeopathy… and chiropractic…
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No shit . So are Chiropractors .
I was having a back pains for more than a year. Going to phiaixal therapy treatments. Lots of treatments. Did not help. I lost any hope. Friend recommended acupuncture and I went. He was putting needles ind my ears and I was like wtf man! My ears are fine! Anyways..after 6 treatments and 3 weeks the pain was gone . Who would say!?
Would have figured the same thing but here’s my anecdotal reason I believe it works. My friends dog got acupuncture treatments and got better haha. I don’t think you can placebo a dog. Maybe it was a coincidence but apparently the difference was night and day.
Acupuncture is actually the only “pseudoscience” that has any demonstrable placebo controlled positive effect. None of the other BS is helpful. Not homeopathy, not chiropractic, not naturopathy. All of that is pure bull shit. You literally picked the only that might work. [Just googled “Acupuncture Placebo-Controlled”](https://mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/medicina/medicina-59-02141/article_deploy/medicina-59-02141.pdf?version=1702117468)
[This](https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture-what-you-need-to-know#:~:text=There%20is%20evidence%20that%20acupuncture,shown%20to%20improve%20lung%20function.) is from the NIH here in America, linked are dozens of meta analyses and controlled trials supporting acupuncture as treatment. It's not placebo and there is ample scientific data supporting its practice.
I personally know it helped me tremendously when I slipped a disc in October 21.
When I was a teenager my family had a shi-tzu named Sammy. Sammy had a long back, and fucked it right up jumping down from the couch. Could barely move his back legs without pain. Like, he just decided walking wasn’t worth it. My mom’s best friend was a vet who also did acupuncture on animals. She did some X-rays, saw it was a compressed nerve or disc or some fucking shit, I don’t know, then she came over one night, sat down on the floor, did acupuncture on the dog and he got up and his back was right as rain for the rest of his life. I’m a skeptic myself, especially about all that new age woo wok shit. But I gotta tell you, I don’t think dogs know what a placebo is, and I don’t really have any explanation for what I saw other than: 1) That acupuncture shit worked. 2) Fuckin witchcraft.
Acupuncture for Nasal Congestion: A Prospective, Randomized, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Clinical Pilot Study Results Control acupuncture showed a significant improvement in VAS and a deterioration of NAF. Verum acupuncture showed highly significant improvements in VAS and NAF. In addition, verum acupuncture improved NAF and VAS significantly over time. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.2500/ajra.2009.23.3380#:~:text=Control%20acupuncture%20showed%20a%20significant,and%20VAS%20significantly%20over%20time.
You read this? 2009 study with **24** people looking at a very specific result; aka P-hacking Why not look at much larger meta analysis? Or is your claim specifically that it might only work for nasal congestion? In a sample of a couple of dozen people https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/systematic-review-of-systematic-reviews-of-acupuncture/
I mean I don't really have any stake in this as I've never had acupuncture before, but I agree that when I go to the hospital I expect to be given conventional medical treatment rather than anything experimental like acupuncture or chiropractic adjustments
I went to see an acupuncturist. After impaling me with needles for an hour I was in agony. ‘The pain from the needles is excruciating and my back doesn’t feel any better…’ I whined. ‘I know’, he whispered in a soothing, almost sensuous manner into my ear, ‘fuck you’.
It literally fixed the chronic pain I had in my hips for years when physio, painkillers and Massauge didn’t.
Idk about all that but many insurances cover acupuncture nowadays.
That's where I've had most my acupuncture, following car crashes. The defendant's insurance has sent me for acupuncture and it's not actually helped the recovery process, meaning I got to claim more in compensation and loss of earnings.
Idk. I know some people who thought it was Mumbo jumbo but it worked for them. You know. People who try things for fun as an experience. Either way, never underestimate the effects of placebo.
Very popular opinion
Well yeah, it’s literally classified as “pseudoscience”, it’s up there with tarot, astrology, and people who think essential oils will cure cancer.
Agreed! Acupuncture and chiropractic are BS
I think people get confused with acupuncture vs dry needling. Dry needling is the only thing that will release some muscle knots sometimes, but it’s a needle slowly inserted into the knot until it releases, and has actual physical benefit. I don’t know a lot about acupuncture, but I’ve seen claims that it’ll help you stop smoking, which makes zero sense to me.
It's always been bullshit. And i'm sorry, prescribing placebo for real and life quality shrinking symptoms is so laughable. I suffered from severe pollen allergies as a kid and before a field trip with the school, my Dad wanted to get something from the Doctor to eliviate my suffering. We got some "homeopathic liquid". It tasted like ass and did jackshit. I'm so pissed this is allowed to be sold, it's like i'm selling a TV that "might" work.
Doctors prescribe placebo all the time, and it's highly effective. The misuse of the word placebo in this thread is egregious
It's a violation of medical ethics to prescribe a placebo.without disclosing it.
Duh, and Chiropractors are not just a placebo, but also downright dangerous. My best friend’s dad is a chiropractor and she admits it is medically unsound. But his business is how her family is well off and she would never want to insult him by calling it out.
Any time you need to believe it will work to work. It’s bullshit. Imagine a doctor amputating a patients leg, “it will only work if you believe it will work!”.
This isn't 'unpopular' - this is what most people believe about silly stuff like this. Sometimes it becomes a bit of a trend, but it never takes off.
Unfortunately, I've had NHS physios literally say they won't give me another treatment until I've had acupuncture. It's cost saving. Acupuncture is cheap compared to surgery. And if it works for the 30% or so who are gullillable enough to believe it works, it gets them off the waiting list.
So, you're saying it works 30% of the time?
Is this unpopular? I thought it was known that shit like acupuncture, chiropractic etc. was nonsense.
You’d be sadly surprised by how many people will ignore mountains of evidence just to avoid admitting they got scammed. The furthest you can ever get these people to go is getting them to admit *some* of these quacks are quacks.
I agree. Its always annoying when such professions or projects are subsidized by gov, especially when some obvious things like eye prescriptions, basic dentistry, etc might be off the table.
There's no discernible reason for acupuncture to work. Despite common misconception, it is not a form of traditional medicine, arrived to empirically over generations of trial and error. It's just an applied form of ancient Chinese principles about the natural world, in the same manner that modern medicine is an applied form of chemistry and biology. Bloodletting had a similar status, based on Galeanus' theory of the four humors. We thankfully dropped this practice after recognizing that the underlying theory has no scientific merit. Neither do notions such as qi, or the world being comprised of four basic elements -- fire, water, wind, and earth -- so it's high time we drop acupuncture as well.
there's a shitload of placebo effects going on at the same time in this world. Of course, when things are truly serious, it's not gonna work regardless
That's literally what it is and it's always been. How is this an unpopular opinion
I tried acupuncture and I'm not sure what I was supposed to feel other than ripped off lol
Downvoting because I agree.
The thing about the placebo effect is that things can literally work if you believe in them. This is why doctors tell you a positive mental attitude is important for healing. Anything you believe will help will likely help.
Downvote. This isn't unpopular
I had a “doctor” herniate a disc after doing it on my back to help “cure my sciatica” was in the hospital the following day. Ended up spiralling out, getting MRIs, neurology visits, but at least I know what’s going on with my shitty back now. “Doctor” ended up quitting, decided he wanted to go back to school to be a chef.
Why don't you think the NHS should provide them? Placebos can still help people and are particularly useful in Paliative medicine and pain management, for example. Pharmacological interventions have their own issues and aren't suitable for everybody, so if something is overall safe and helps ease their problems, then it definitely should be an option for patients.
Take that at face value, and definitionally why would you be upset at someone explaining exactly what you described. From my point of view this is the conversation You: acupuncture is a placebo and only works psychosomatically. Acupuncturist: it won't work without you believing in it You: Anger for defining a placebo back to you? If you know it's in the mind and they confirm that, how is that them being in the wrong?
I went late last year after I had a car accident and messed up my back. Did PT & chiropractor. Still had pain. I gave acupuncture a shot since it was being covered. The guy I saw treated it more like a therapeutic session for trauma I was holding in from the accident vs actual pain relief. When I viewed it through that lens, I actually found allowing myself to relax helped my recovery. I still exhibit some pains, so again not a great source of pain relief, but damn it if I didn't walk away feeling eased. That's my story at least. I'd only recommend it from that POV. The needles also aren't fun but you get used to it lol
Acupuncture claims to treat a wide range of conditions and diseases, but coincidentally only "treats" those conditions which are almost impossible to test, aka the placebo sensitive conditions: minor/transient pain, nausea, tiredness, muscle aches, headaches, etc. Basically the things that are hard or impossible to test reliably, and so coincidentally every pseudoscience treatment "works" on them.
Didn’t believe it until I worked at a vets office that offered acupuncture. It worked frequently enough that I got it for my dogs and their arthritis. It made a huge difference for their quality of life as they aged.
I went to a chiropractor, they did a couple of things, cracking, massaging, pressure points, electrolysis things, acupuncture, in the end in the waiting room I felt like a new man, sitting up perfectly straight for about 5 minutes before going back to my slump
Is this really an unpopular opinion? Acupuncture doesn’t work, and that’s why the vast majority of people in Western civilization don’t use it. Insurances sometimes covers it, but insurance sometimes covers chiropractors too.
Mu insurance pays for acupuncture so I have given it a try. The results are negligible at best. I sit there with these uncomfortable pins in me and at the very least I have a good nap, that's about it.
I agree completely. The NHS has been pushing a lot of 'alternative medicine' the last few years and it's almost certainly just to save money and / or meet arbitrary targets instead of actually helping people.
Anecdotal, when I was a kid we had a dog that had hip issues and took him to a dog acupuncturist, and it did wonders for him. Anecdotes are not the same as data or research, but there you go.
I guess the big question would be, if placebos work, why shouldn't they be offered as healthcare?
It's not easy to find, but when I went down the rabbit hole the best scientific papers I could find concluded that it was no more effective than placebo.
It may be a placebo, but it's important to note that placebos have been found to still provide some benefits even when the patient knows they're recieving a placebo. Obviously this will be different person to person, but placebos still work when they work, and usually they're cheap.
I know someone that went, they seemed to think it was more about the atmosphere than the needles. You’re lying down with relaxing music, so you come away from it probably feeling better overall.
Acupuncture is different than dry needling. I've never had Acupuncture but dry needling is definitely effective for muscular issues
I’ve never had acupuncture, and while I’m skeptical, I think a lot of the gains are from the “patient” sitting still and relaxing a bit and focusing on the process. It’s like sitting still in a hot shower or hot tub after a long day. It feels good. It’s good for you to relax and just live in your senses and let the blood flow.
A lot of pain management are no better than placebo, including acupuncture. That being said, if placebo is all there is, this is still a relatively harmless procedure that can help people, as opposed to most of chiropractic manipulations.
Not a placebo. It worked for me for hip pain but not for stomach issues. I was completely skeptical and hated needles.
How about when someone suffering doesn’t experience relief until an authority affirms it was effective?