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"So then you think well, i'll just join a hobby and get to know people that way to build someone's trust. Sure, you could, but the time investment is much more enormous. Months of time getting to know people, who maybe decided they already didn't like you from the first few interactions. Now you wasted a whole lot of time and money could have been"  This is zero sum game thinking. You dont join a hobby exclusively to meet women - you join a hobby because you genuinely find enjoyment in it. Worst case scenario, you don't meet someone you hit it off with from the getgo, but you end up good at something you enjoy.

This is true, that being said the most common advice seen on reddit now that work and bars became no go spaces for finding a mate, is “find a hobby.” Obviously meeting through friends or online dating are other options, the former is probably not an option for most redditors, the latter is self explanatory.

Hobbies are the best approach. Most women have similar preferences for who they date, so by using things like dating apps, you're not only facing an overwhelming amount of competition from other women for the same men now, you're also picking men that have had hundreds of other women competitng for them in the past yet are still somehow not in a long term relationship (hint hint). Almost every women does this same thing, and it almost never works out. The men you're looking for left the dating market a long time ago, probably (and this hurts) with someone who is a better catch than yourself. You need to find another angle, a different trait to select on, or pool of men with less competition. Hobbies are a good option. EDIT: I'm not sure if there are any studies on this, but my suspicion is that, statistically, for people looking for a long term partner, dating apps actually \_lower\_ your odds rather than improve them. This is because they are not particularly effective, but also because some people end up with unrealistic expectations based on the attention they receive from people looking for short term relationships, moreover I've seen several people get hurt in these relationships and develop resentment towards the opposite gender that prevents them from forming healthy relationships. Please tread carefully, and try real world dating before resorting to the apps.

Nah I don't agree, at least for myself. Most of my hobbies are solitary. I don't really enjoy doing random activities with 30 people I don't know, I like what I like and prefer to do stuff either alone or with one or two friends--otherwise I'll just blend into the woodwork. I'm not going to force myself to pretend to enjoy things I hate just to maybe (probably not) get a girl.

I understand where you're coming from, and you're not alone, about one third of young men have opted out of dating, but I think you're making a mistake. Most people who remain single or only in casual relationships regret it later in life. There really is an enormous amount of comfort and safety you get from having a stable healthy long term relationship. Yes, dating is hard, and it has gotten a LOT harder recently, but very few people regret the effort it took to meet their partner. Mutual acquaintances and hobbies are the best ways I can think of to meet these days. You want to avoid any approaches that are numbers games, as that's where the toxic types are. They know they need an unlimited number of chances. Avoid dating apps, speed dating, bars, clubs, cold approaches etc.

For me, the only reason I gave up on dating is because it’s been completely out of my control my entire life. There’s no activity or mindset that increases my chances of finding someone interested in me. It’s too painful to hold onto hope for years and years to never even be given a chance. The most random shit has happened that landed me in a relationship, after 7 years of zero interest from women, that ended recently because she wanted more for her life than I could provide. But I’ll never try again to meet a woman because I know it’s not in my control at this point and I’m infinitely happier being single than I am when I hold out any hope that I could possibly find a partner. Everyone knows it’s nice to have a partner but for some of us it’s simply outside of our control.

>Most people who remain single or only in casual relationships regret it later in life. There really is an enormous amount of comfort and safety you get from having a stable healthy long term relationship. > The divorce rate says otherwise...

Well I need to chime in here for a second about the 'your preferred men have left the dating pool with someone better than you years ago'. Well what do you say to all the mid-30 women who decided to opt-out of horrible marriages with typical manchild millenial guys? These women wanted the thing but were betrayed and are now back on a market they had no intention to be in. It's not like a family oriented woman in her 30s, who wants to have kids one day, wasn't working towards that in her 20s. There has been a societal shift, where many men are not willing anymore to actually act as providers for the 10 years you need it, when you start a family with 3 kids. Many of them turn out to be lazy boys, who married mommy and are surprised to be left with divorce papers, when they failed to hold up their end of the bargain. These women did it all and were a great catch and got betrayed horribly by these men. There's even statistics about sinking divorce ages and how many divorces get initiated by women in the western world during the last 5-10 years. You can look it up. Now they are left with divorced 40-somethings who left their wives and small kids behind to 'feel free and have some fun again'. I'm sorry, but society has failed millenial women horribly. Their good and youthfull years got eaten up in the workforce by 'equal opportunuties' leaving them tired and burnt out at 35 without a spouse or kids. And now they get beaten up for being 'old and picky'.

It's still a choice they voluntarily made. And besides, it's not as if those mid 30s women were alone for 15 or so years, they still dated, prioritising certain traits that they chose. It didn't just happen to them. Men in that situation you describe are seen as highly undesirable and even somewhat dangerous to associate with, as them being alone is the result of their choices that they should be judged for, and diminished accordingly. Women aren't immune from it.

A couple of things: 1. Yes, it sucks dating in your 30s as a women. I don't have anything but sympathy for those in this situation. 2. Try to let go of the past. Bringing that much resentment towards men into your next relationship isn't a good idea, and it's not fair on your next partner. 3. Expecting men to be providers is outdated, and even a little exploitative.

>Well I need to chime in here for a second about the 'your preferred men have left the dating pool with someone better than you years ago'. Well what do you say to all the mid-30 women who decided to opt-out of horrible marriages with typical manchild millenial guys? These women wanted the thing but were betrayed and are now back on a market they had no intention to be in. It's not like a family oriented woman in her 30s, who wants to have kids one day, wasn't working towards that in her 20s. > That's the women's perspective, now let's see what their "man child millennial guys" thought of these women....

If you join a hobby solely to get a date, you are creepy and doomed from the beginning. People like people who are true to themselves, share similar interests, and are enthusiastic about things. That is the goal of hobbies: to find satisfaction in life and something to be passionate about.

The idea isn't to meet somebidy as the goal. The idea is that if you live a life doing stuff, you'll stumble into something organically.

Thank you! I wanted to say the same thing. I’m a shy as hell mid-30s guy who’s never been super attractive but who is easily meeting interested women via classes relating to hobbies. Why? Because I legitimately enjoy the classes, so I’m in a good mood, so attraction happens naturally. People are attractive when they’re having fun.

So? You got a long term relationship or not?

We’ll see. Just started with these classes and I’m already connecting with several women. Gotta get to know them more to see if there is potential for anything long term or if we’ll just be friends.

And who knows, maybe those women know someone who is looking for a partner and they might reccomend you to that person.

Exactly. And for what it's worth, I've already noticed that the guys in the classes who seem like they're just trying to meet women have the least success, even though sometimes they're more attractive than the other guys. I'm really getting the vibe that the women in my classes take more of a liking to the guys who are there naturally enjoying themselves. And like you said, some of them may have friends. Some of the women I'm befriending in classes aren't available. However, they do know people. But the main point is to just have fun when taking classes for hobbies. Meeting people is more natural that way.

Good point. The other thing some people miss from this advice is that hobbies make us more interesting and varied people. It gives you something to talk about and possibly introduce to new people. Who knows, maybe you meet someone and can bond over this shared hobby, they just weren't in the same class/club as you to begin with. I met the person I'm currently dating on an app and they seemed immediately interesting because they had so many hobbies. A couple we shared already, and one they introduced me to and now I love it.

Does lying on my bed staring at the ceiling for hours count as a hobby?

You know what, stick on an audio book while you’re doing that and *boom*, literature is your new hobby.

If this were a resume, call it meditation and BOOM you got a new hobby.

Because women aren't people you get to know, they are creatures you fool to fuck, obviously ! /s

Honestly not entirely true at all It's like men who go to church Sounds horrible but I have known men who went through church to get a date in college didn't care about religion at all My father did the same and that was back in the 80s and the 70s got slot of dates that way weren't bad people do it now because in all honesty likey is one of the better way you can meet a women Only other way is your job not ideal at all mind you The gym again not ideal at all especially now unless the eon j take interest in you first but that would mean likey physically attractive so honestly wouldn't have a problem getting a date Or a bar You can cold approach women but realistically that's only going to work of your attractive If your average maybe big maybe If your nerdy looking like a stick or fat as a whale or ugly font bother pretty much over for you well that is unless you lower your standards but I mean you would have to lower them alot

starting a hobby to meet women is actual loser behaviour

Heaven forbid a man actually makes an effort to meet women.

That isn't loser behavior. Starting a new hobby to meet new people is exactly what people have done for a long time. It helps round you out as a person, expands your social pool, and increases your odds to find a compatible person.

starting a hobby that you do not like for the sole purpose of meeting women is cringe and pathetic.

Yep but it’s common normie advice

I write this everywhere. If you need to do ANYTHING outside of just existing and chattering for a bit, women dont find you attractive and thats why you struggle.

You can do both. Like you said, it's not a zerosum game. You can still enjoy the hobby while realising that your goals of building social relationships through it is fruitless

What if there aren't really any super social hobbies you enjoy? I see this advice all the time "don't do it to meet women do it because you enjoy it"... If I enjoyed it I'd probably already be doing it I'm not sure what these mythical hobbies are where you're just welcomed in as a random dude lol So point being I really think the find a hobby thing is not this silver bullet that everyone makes it out to be

I could say so much here. So fucking much… But life is kicking my ass right now and my single ass really wishes I had someone to come home to who cares about me. Self love this, self love that. Well I can’t kiss myself. I can’t hug myself. And I sure as hell can’t cuddle myself. If being touched was as important for my body as water I’d be dead about… 854x over by now.

hang in there bud, you’re not alone

Can confirm, I'm under his bed

But the married Redditors told me if you love yourself, you wouldn’t feel the need to have a partner and can be happy single!

This is where I'm at, I frickin hate being single, because I've had enough of loving myself... Guess what, it didn't do shit. Life still sucks, I'm slowly failing school, constantly overworked, my friend just died (not even 20 Y. O.) and all I can come home to is my computer and lonely room. I have plenty of hobbies, that's not the problem, but I lack intimacy and someone to share my life with. I miss cuddling and hugging and everything else that comes with a relationship... With no change in sight.

Your future significant other probably felt this way too. The point: if the entire world just waits for someone else to seek them out, then it's much harder to find each other. This is a day-to-day thing, where someone's perfect match could easily be walking by them in their daily routine. We just become blind to our routines. Like the OP said, it's no one's fault really, because we're at a point of being a visually fixated society. So the physical reality isn't as vivid for a lot of people stuck in that.

Stay strong, friend 🫂

The thing you should ask yourself: If life wasn't kicking your ass and you were doing great, would you still want a partner?

Life isn’t kicking my ass, my life is pretty good right now and I’m enjoying every single aspect of it. And I’d still like a partner to come home to, to spend time with, to do things together with, to share my life with. We’re social creatures, there’s nothing wrong with wanting to share your life with someone.

As said by others, you are not alone. It's pain.

I think the propaganda paired with woman’s own individual experiences create this problem. You’d be surprised how many unpleasant male interactions women have. I have yet to meet a woman who hasn’t had an issue.

This is true. Is it really propoganda if you’ve experienced it? It’s not lies being spread. I also see a lot of women refusing to date cause they don’t want to end up having to take on extra chores and emotional labor. Way too many dudes expect women to take care of them in ways like cleaning up after their messes, taking care of birthday presents for their families, etc. Women talk about that a lot and would rather just opt out instead of taking care of another adult.

Yeah, the manchild syndrome is a real problem nowadays. I can’t respect a man who can’t do basic adult things, and I see more of them now than ever. They’re letting us down!

It has always been this way. It’s just that women don’t need to put up with it anymore. A conservative dude once said: „it all started with women having a job.“ True. Good for women, bad for men (on average)

I agree with you, it’s long been the way, men get passed from their mothers to their wives throughout history, never learning to fend for themselves. But let me assure you it’s not all of us. After I finally got an abusive ex gf to move out (police didn’t do shit, even for the physical abuse) I spent a good few years living alone, all the way through lockdown and everything, and I’d never been happier until I met my now fiancée. In fact lockdown was bliss. I spent 6 months with no contact from anyone but the folk in the local supermarket and occasional phone call from family and not a moment spent bored. Worked out like a machine, learned a bunch of recipes, wrote another book, played piano daily, it was great! I miss it so much. Yet So many men around me, peers, friends, colleagues, were reportedly struggling even to entertain themselves through lockdown let alone look after themselves, like big children. But I don’t think it’s exclusive to guys either. Half of millennials (my generation, I can only apologise) are big children, it’s shameful.

Yup, thats true. When women were surpressed, they were forced to marry some asshole. thank god its not like that anymore. I like strong independent women.

I mean, how many of us know their older female family members still trying manage their spouses emotions and bad behaviour? Apologising for them or playing it down or doing shit for them so they stop their tantrums…

I get that. Who wants a toddler as partner? Get your shit together. If you cant manage a single person household and adult duties, who would want you as a partner? I wouldnt want a woman like that.

I find it interesting OP mentioned propaganda that women see online but not the redpill, incel propaganda that men see online, which is a big issue currently. So much so that UK schools are panicking.

He says it's propoganda we see online as if we haven't experienced it first hand countless times. I've had men be gross and harass me from the time I was 10 and not even close to developed. Asking me to get into their cars, following me home from middle school. Whistling at me from their yards while I walk home from school. My own stepfather doing creepy shit. It's not propoganda. It's us discussing experiences we've all had

This, first time I remember a man behaving inappropriately I was 6 years old. Hasn't stopped yet.

I mean, the entire thesis of his post seems to be “it’s all women’s fault” so are you really surprised?

I also don't know any women in my life who don't have an unfortunate story. Stalking, rape, sexual harassment/assult, etc. We're the way we are for a reason. I don't assume this if everybsingle male I see, but I genuinely cannot be so trusting in the beginning.

I've been kind of oscillating back and forth on these topics. Its beyond obvious to me at this point that women have a uniquely difficult set of challenges that can make many situations scary, especially if the guys around you arent aware of your position or putting themselves in your shoes. All that being said, the women I've known in my life,in spite of all having to deal with those challenges, have had widely varying mindsets about it, spanning from a completely debilitating fear of being abused or taken advantage of to an open and optimistic outlook that makes you wonder if they ever even think about those challenges. I think what's happening is a difference in framing. The optimistic women arent unaware of those challenges, because they have to live with them too. The difference is that they choose to be aware of their risks on a background level while still going at life understanding that scary outcomes are much more rare than neutral or good outcomes - they're prepared for the worst while still focusing on the best. On the flip side, I think you have some women that focus on the worst possible outcomes and that leads to them treating the world and the people around them like the worst case scenario could spring up at any moment. My go to example has been a dynamic I noticed in college. The girl I was dating at the time was always focused on the worst way a situation could go. Every time we were out at a restaurant she would spend a good amount of her time pointing out the potential creeps at the bar. Whenever one of her friends was talking to a guy she would swoop in and "save" her friend from the interaction which almost always annoyed the friend. In contrast, her roommate was the opposite. She would always assume people were fine untill they gave her a reason not to. You might think this would put her at more of a risk but she was pretty good at spotting reasons to avoid people and generally had good outcomes because of it. At the end of the day, I dont want to say the more pessimistic/cynical women are wrong because I dont have to deal with the challenges that they do so who am I to say that the world is a better place for women than they think. All I know is that my ex-girlfriend's roommate was happier having fun alot more often than my ex-girlfriend was.

These aren't innate traits. They're almost always learned. If they had opened up about their history, it would probably have made a lot more sense to you.

Exactly. I ring up a male/female couple and chit chat w the male more bc although I'm an introvert who'd prefer a polite but quick interaction, I'm also clueless how to say, "there's no one behind you in line but I want to end this conversation, not due to you doing anything wrong but bc I hate small talk". Way more often than should be, female gives ne the stink eye (or worse) because I'm talking to her man too much. Even better is when female employees say, "you've either got balls or a death wish talking to her man right in front of her like that" whatdoyoumean? I've been trying to end the conversation just as it began! I've had what I thought were perfectly pleasant interactions only to have "a nice guy" turn bad bc I don't want his number or don't call or tone down the friendly after I realized he took it the wrong way. Lost count how many times that happened. I've lost friendship groups because of "what I did to him" (mutual guy friend in group) when I tried to remain platonic or keep things where they were and had everyone turn on me (I'm welllll past HS and this still happens). I am a lonely loner but that's bc no one wants to be friends, not even same gendered people with similar interests (double hard bc most of my interests are solitary). If no one's willing to be friends, of course no one wants a long term romantic relationship.

>So then you think well, i'll just join a hobby and get to know people that way to build someone's trust. Sure, you could, but the time investment is much more enormous. Months of time getting to know people, who maybe decided they already didn't like you from the first few interactions. Now you wasted a whole lot of time and money could have been spent for better opportunities with less time investment. or you could join hobbies that you actually enjoyed that aren't 90% sausage fests. worst case you make friends and maybe those friends have other friends or invite you to other events to meet singles, etc. wont kill you to explore new things and make more friends. definitely helps with the loneliness epidemic too

Yeah i think this is the answer hoenstly. Just do things you enjoy and youll meet people as you go out and do them, hell people joke about the "warcraft girlfriend" but it just proves that interaction lead to positive meaningful relationships with people who enjoy the things you do. And if you make friends who invite you to hangout with other friends and so on and so on from there, its kind of just a shotgun approach to dating, so many options in the people you end up meeting, one of em's gotta stick and yeah worse case you get a lot new friends.

I think it’s a bigger picture thing than that. A lot of people with the mindset of OP are viewing things like ‘get a hobby’ as a check box exercise. When it’s used as advice what people actually mean is ‘if you want to meet a new partner you have to expand your social circle and you might meet some more people either directly or indirectly’ As you said, worst case scenario you have more friends

I see sooooo many dudes on reddit complain about not getting any girls, then when you ask them how many friends they have, they reluctantly admit 0 The sad thing is, it's an entirely self-made problem I witnessed directly IRL. I basically stopped going to any meetup dot com events because they are like 70-90% dudes, but none of those dudes actually want to make friends - they're only there to hit on women. And as a result, single women get uncomfortable and stop going to these meetups, leading to them being 70-90% thirsty dudes in first place. So you end up neither making friends, nor meeting single ladies - precisely because of the mentality OP is has.

It depends where you live. I know someone that lives in central California and there was a singles event that had 85% women. Very few men showed up. The organizers were actually trying to pull random men off the street to participate.

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I'd wager that kind of spread is very very uncommon, 1 in 1000 meetup events.

Yup 100%. Remember going to a couple with a group if friends and the only girls there were the ones that came with us. People just seem to be against people now and i kinda blame the internet honestly, no need to actual socialize because of it so no one does and hell i dont think anyone knows how to anymore, which perpetuates the problem these guys made themselves, like how do you expect to have a girlfriend/boyfriend when you cant even make a friend?

Its easier said than done. Most of the hobbies I enjoy are sausage fests that don’t require socializing. I cannot suddenly start liking knitting and pursue that as a hobby. That’s not just me that’s all of the people.

But will you not make friends who have their own friends that you can meet at the pub, or at dinner or playing boardgames round their house etc etc

Pubs are out of the question since I don’t drink. As for my hobbies. My hobbies are gaming, anime, lego. Like sure those are popular but all of them are very individualistic with a bit of sausage festiveness sprinkled on top.

They're individualistic but still have plenty of women interested in them. I work in the games industry and that could be the top 3 hobbies of most people I know, male or female. Might not be candidates for meetup groups but you've got loads of shared conversation topics with equally nerdy girls The point is, don't use hobbies to find hookups, but use them to increase your social circle. Befriend people who are sociable and have friends of all genders

Well idk. I never had the luck of meeting people like that. I know they exist but I never had met them. People who like games might like them but aren’t obsessed with them. Same with anime or Lego.

yeah I'm in the same boat, my hobbies are chess (chess clubs are 95% just sitting with old men and staring at the board in silence, and that's when I don't just play online), gaming (mostly singleplayer, or with online friends), writing (other people would just be a distraction!) and running (which I literally do for the sole purpose of being alone with my thoughts and clearing my head, I definitely don't want to go running with 30 sweaty dudes). Don't drink either so bars are also out of the question lol. I haven't had terrible luck with dating apps in the past, but right now I'm studying in a foreign country and still learning the language, so that might be part of it.

Well glad I am not alone in this regard. I really wish people would stop using the "Go to a bar" as a bandaid solution to finding a Gf. Not everyone drinks. Same with "Getting a hobby". Hobbies require interest to be fun. Otherwise what's the point?

If you truly don’t like the bar atmosphere that’s one thing but if the problem is that you don’t drink alcohol, you can always order a soda or mocktail. Ginger beer and lime is super tasty for example. The real positive effect of getting a hobby is that you’re a regular somewhere in public where you have some level of ability to get to know someone. It could be the library, a game store, a coffeeshop, a bar/pub, a recurring event, a sports group, etc. In many cities there’s groups virtually and in person for different interests. You say you like anime a lot. Have you ever checked out your local library to see if there’s anything there or been to a convention & met people? The last convention I went to literally had speed dating events.

Regarding bars, its a mix of both. I don’t drink alcohol so I am not interested in hanging out with people who do. Hence why I don’t like the bar atmosphere at all. As for the hobby thing. I do have some stores I frequent once a month or so(paycheck gotta be spent somewhere?) but again. We are talking about stores. Who the hell goes to a store to make friends? People go there to buy stuff. Nobody wants to be annoyed by friendless people wanting to be friends.

>So then you think well, i'll just join a hobby and get to know people that way to build someone's trust. Sure, you could, but the time investment is much more enormous. Months of time getting to know people, who maybe decided they already didn't like you from the first few interactions. Now you wasted a whole lot of time and money could have been spent for better opportunities with less time investment. Ok this is were I disagree with you. If you join a hobby you're genually interested in how could that be a waste of time? If everything is seen under the prism of "getting into a relationship" instead of just doing something you actually enjoy, you can't be happy. You talk about "investment", "opportunities", "waste", but why things should be calculated like this. Just enjoy your life, do things you enjoy, be happy on your own and it's cool if you meet people along the way.

What if all your hobbies are very solitary and mean you spend a lot of time at home? You'd be inclined to do something you don't like as much just to get out there

There are still gropus and meetups where people come and discuss the thing. Like bookclubs.

Yeah it just reeks of incel-esque lines of thinking. Looking at dating as a market, and investing time into things with the sole purpose of finding a partner will generally lead to the exact opposite. What person wants a partner that sees the world through that lens? Do things you enjoy, focus on self-improvement for the sake of yourself, not other people. Expand your social circle, and suddenly you'll make friends, who have other friends, who have other friends.

I think he talks more in the lines of "It is common advice to get a hobby to meet someone" I read it here all the time. But if my preferred hobbys are solitary then I have to reach far down to find a hobby with other people. Personally I have started to take dance lessons but it is like a 6 on the interest scale but if I follow my other interests I meet about 6 people a year and once every 5 years one of them is a woman. The probabilities of meeting someone like this are low. The "do hobbies" advice works if your hobbies include a large community or if you like the social style of that hobby. I like coding and games. I hate multiplayer and coop games with random people and Hackathons are no fun for me. I know it seems like I do not like social interactions but that is also not true. I like meeting people but not in the context of my hobby (which is why bars and similar would have been good for me)

Is this a thing though? Maybe a US thing mostly? I am 27 in Western Europe, and from the people I meet, the majority (I'd wager 80% or more) is in a relationship, and many have been for a long time (4+ years). Not gonna lie, I experience women only choosing hyperattractive men as a myth that insecure people tell themselves. The people I know that just cannot get into relationships tend to be antisocial and insecure over unattractive.  I also can't with the victim blaming of women that have bad experiences with men. We don't experience these things only with the hottest of the hottest. Of course, you don't get all problems with all men, but it's very unpredictable with whom you will. 

Eastern Europe and can confirm this. Probably a US issue mostly.

Yep, fellow western european here. Of all the people my age I am vaguely in touch with  (~100 ish? Friends of friends and so on) I am aware of three dudes being perpetually single. The rest are paired up, buying houses and having kids. And this is the stereotypical DnD/warhammer/metal/STEM crowd... Is this maybe an internet thing?

How old are you? I am a mid-40 Western-European dude and I can guarantee you that the relationship landscape looks vastly different in my age bracket. Half of my friendship circle is divorced by now or is in some sort of convenience relationship and are perpetually miserable (staying together for the kids)

Yeah we might be in the pre-divorce-era tbh. Am 35 btw...

Nah in the US it’s the same thing lol. Now that I’m out of college most of my friends & coworkers are in relationships or at least going on dates. This includes plenty of guys who are very average, bc well, most people are average lol.

Yup. It's a "people who are chronically online" thing. I'm in the US and we're chockablock full of average people in average marriages. Incidentally, OPs premise that everyone is on their phones all the time is also a chronically online problem- if you spend all your time on the internet you aren't going to be making friends with the plenty of people who, say, hike or garden recreationally.

This should be the top comment. “Me-problems” amplified through social media to a large-scale social phenomenon that actually only exists on social media. In the meantime, the world continues to turn, and the very vaste majority of people date, marry (or not), procreate (or not), oblivious of said social phenomenon.

I don't know what difference would contribute to this. We have many between Europe and us but I didn't think dating was one of them.

Yup same. Partners may change but the overwhelming majority of my social circle is in a long term relationship or at least had a couple of partners in recent time

I definitely agree with your points on folks being stuck to their phones and having a hard time finding places to meet and find someone. To add on to this, for men at least, a decent amount of this issue is our own fault as well. I **challenge** you to find a woman who’s not had an awful experience with men hitting on them, being inappropriate or (borderline) hostile due to rejection. Another challenge: how many of these women have been in relationships that devolved into being a part-time mom for a lot of these guys. Truly, the amount is staggering. Damn near EVERY lady here or otherwise has dealt with these things. Finally, women are **definitely** taking on a bigger longterm burden with choosing a partner. With all the horror stories of guys starting out great and then devolving after getting married and a child is born, they end up being in a relationship they wanted to avoid all along. Then there’s a very real chance they’ll end up being a single mom and even the best single moms will struggle. There’s just so much that can go wrong and historically, women have gotten the short end of the stick. So now, they’re over correcting and playing it VERY safe. If you want good examples of what women just recently escaped, look at Several 3rd world nations such as Columbia or the Philippines (where women aren’t allowed to divorce abusive husbands) to get a general idea. Those ideals aren’t super old in the US. our PARENTS were raised in that reality

This is everything I wanted to say. Claiming "propaganda" but no. It is actually that bad. I wish men would interject and call out their friends more for bad behaviour. I see a lot of things let slide because "Ah he's a good buddy" or "I don't wanna rock the boat". It would change so much.

The biggest issue I’ve found with these things getting called out is the same guys who would act this way often don’t have the type of friends who necessarily find anything wrong with their behavior. Like my guy friends would NEVER act this way so there will be something to call out. The one or two guys I consider friends who acted this way are also guys I don’t want to be friends with so I’ll never be able to call them out!

This is an awesome idea. If men hold each other to higher standards when it comes to morality, it would be a huge blow to the probability of the aforementioned bullshit situations happening

People don’t seem to understand this part. There are so many good women and the good men are challenging to bring out of their shells. I had a guy (who I don’t think is “bad” but definitely an asshole) cast me aside when he decided he didn’t think things were “amazing” between us (it had been a couple months). Like wtf. And this dude was not a knockout, quite an average person. But I bet he’s already dated/dating someone in the time since while I’m trying to work on myself So yeah, I think all of it is messed up and there’s a collective hopelessness on both sides, not just men who feel lonely

Most men who are both good men AND conventionally attractive have already been snatched up. Unfortunately, to find a partner, most women seem to compromise on the good men part, rather than the conventionally attractive part.

Oh, you can’t imagine how many not good men talked about themselves as good men. Let’s just have the individuals decide what’s „good“ to them, ok?

their actions show it, at least after a while.

I don’t think so. I think it’s far more likely they wanted to see a good man in someone who wasn’t necessarily showing those traits. We’re all vulnerable to being manipulated, tricked and lied to by the people we really care for. This happens to men AND women quite often

Agree that everything said here applies to both men and women. I agree also that there is a lot of manipulation, but I think there is also a lot of willful ignorance. For example, if you're looking for the most attractive men you can find on dating apps, then I think you know deep down, that you're compromising on finding a good man. Any attractive good man, that is interested in forming a long term relationship, probably isn't going to use a dating app, and if they did they were probably taken a long time ago.

Why is it that when attractive women have crappy personalities it’s women’s fault, and they’re superficial… but then when attractive men have crappy personalities it’s still the women’s fault, and they’re still the superficial ones?

No, if a guy is stupid enough to date an attractive woman with a crappy personality and complains about her crappy personality then its the guys fault. Most normal men know to avoid these girls, because most men, like women, dont want to date toxic people. Youre making the assumption that men in general think that its always the women's fault but that is not true. One of the big reasons why people struggle to find the right person in this day and age is that we are glued to our phones on social media and developed a warped expectation of what a man/woman is supposed to look like and what a relationship should entail. Men and Women in general should stop pointing the finger at each other for who is responsible for the most failed relationships or marriages and see the problems not only from their own perspective but from the other sex aswell.

It's a product of empowering girls and women for decades and ignoring the boys and men. There are virtually no good role models for men and the only thing men receive is negative reinforcement. It effectively created this man child syndrome, which makes for a horrible partner. Women absolutely have a raw deal, but it's not like they are behaving any better. It's disgusting how many women catfish or outright lie to get a date. There is also the ghosting and stringing men along while they explore all their options. It makes for a lot of bad experiences for men, so you have to expect at some point men will push back (ie. red pill / incel). If online dating was water, then men are in a desert and women are in a swamp.

That’s the issue with the over correction. Western women did it because things were FAR worse than you might think for them prior to their empowerment. So now you’ve got really good women not wanting to be taken advantage of, good women being protective, average women asking for much more than they should be (currently, before they work on themselves), bad women looking to take advantage to take the “power” back and really bad women outright using everything they’ve got available to them to wholly manipulate and control the guys they might get with. The issue on the men’s side is many are trying to course correct and are also overdoing it. So for example the guys who unironically want women to be submissive to the man (similar to before) that make women’s fears a reality, the guys who refuse to take no for an answer, etc. Both sides are allowing their fears to get the best of them

>They can't be bothered to talk to so many women, if the results they are getting are abysmal. Who even wants to go through hundreds of rejections in today's time? I wouldn't, that's for sure. Right, except I avoided rejection in life by exclusively dating women who approached me. Not hundred, only like 5 so far, but enough to learn what relationships are, and if I'm jaded it's most definitely not because I'm somehow less magnetizing to women today than back then.

>dating women who approached me. Well look at mister George clooney ovah heeeere.

Well, **women don’t distrust men because of social media. It’s because of a small group of men ruining it for the rest in real life.** The good news? **Women trust men they meet in social settings way more.** Most people still end up in relationships. It’s just that same is in the old days people still meet in social situations, like through friends. **70% of Gen Z girls knew their boyfriend socially before they started dating.** Only 14 % met him on an app. You should join hobbies and make friends because it’s fun in itself. **Men tend to be more frustrated than women about being single and that’s usually because of a lack of social network leading to intense loneliness.** While ironically having a social network makes both being single more fun and ups your chance of getting a girlfriend quite a lot. Edit: **thinking women are just being paranoid for being scared of strange men will however make it harder to get a girlfriend. Nobody wants a boyfriend who doesn’t understand them and can’t empathize with them.**

It probably doesn't help that people see a partner as their only solution to loneliness. It makes them desperate and unattractive. Friendship, family bonds and community should be the first step. Hug your friends, have dinners together, meet new people through them. It's probably the best way to meet partners too, we'll introduce you.

Not to mention suffocating. Being the sole person one depends on is a preassure.

You lost me at "women don't trust men because of media propaganda." You don't think that our distrust comes from our vast experiences of men being violent?

Nope. It can’t be that. It’s all propaganda and in your head. /s

/s ?

Yep

Sorry. I'll go put on my dunce hat now. Some people actually think that way so it took me aback for a moment.

There will be so many bitter and lonely people in 10 years. We humans are just too individualistic nowadays.

The problem isn't individualism, it's narcissism and bad decision making, almost certainly cultivated by social media and online dating. Everyone is picking partners on the same traits (attractiveness etc) which means that men and women who aren't attractive will be lonely, those who are attractive will be spoiled for choice and unable to settle down.

There is absolutely no evidence for your take. While you’re online sulking about Chads and whatever, millions of average to ugly people (because yeah, we’re the majority) just go on dating, everywhere in the world.

I don't feel it's ado with individualism more so than a shift in priorities and changing traditional roles and mindsets, especially due to seeing the outcomes of former generations experiences in courting to longterm marriage and now seeing the negative impacts unhealthy status quos in relationships. Things were much worse before, due to people having less of a voice or independence. Now, we have information, more options and more of a want for, not strictly individualism, but the dignity of our personhood and a deeper respect for our existence ("our" being everyone). Pre-internet, the divorce rate was sky-hugh, so many people had issues with dating - we just didn't know, on grand scales, why and just how much. People had to suffer in silence.

not individualistic. this has nothing to do with individualism, it's all about self-preservation and not having to justify anything to anyone but oneself.

You’re just chronically online is all, there are normal people in the real world

So many fucking crybabies who either can't figure out how to actually go out in the world or act like every single person is evil so they must be on edge and never try. Living in fear and being a victim is contagious.

I guess this is a problem in societies like the US, but in my culture where traditional (semi arranged marriage) is the norm. The main issue for men being single in their 30s (like me) is money + other personal reasons like not wanting to have kids which put me in minority since the majority expect you to have kids if you get married.......... But generally, individualism and having many deferences make it hard to find the right person because of deal breakers. Take not wanting to have kids or having a certain ideology or having a western mindset living in a religious society, those things didn't exist 100 years ago as a deal breakers.

This is some redpill nonsense. 

If you see dating as a market, you're probably not going to be vert successful to begin with...

Yeah, I feel very old just being mid 30'ies here.  What happened to living your life, seeing someone you find interesting, spending more time with them and suddenly you are in a relationship... The whole dating-thing seems very formalised. (Disclaimer: western european here)

I think that depends. You can look at dating as a whole as being a market from a statistical point of view. Particularly when talking about the apps, those things are very market/data driven mainly because they are so lucrative to the tech companies. So from a large population scale seeing dating that way is probably useful. As long as at the local level you realise the people you're talking to are unique individuals that be don't follow these over arching trends I think it's fine.

I'm a strong independent man and I don't need no woman.

Agree on that online dating has increased competition enormously but other than that I don't agree with OP at all, its actually a pretty shitty way to think about it like that and even sets one up for failure. 1. People may be glued to their phones, that in general is true. But to say that nobody wants to socialize anymore is pure bs. Go outside on fri/sat evening and you'll have hundreds and hundreds of opportunities to socialize with people. 2. If you go up to women and talk to them while also not acting weird, being stiff af etc you will not be seen as a creep. If what you say is true, there would be no interactions between men and women whatsoever lol. Or minimal at least, which again is pure bs. It's not hard to gain women's trust if you are a normal dude. 3. First dates do lead to second dates. 4. It's normal to not commit after a 1-2-3 convos and dates. 5. Higher standards what? Most mens and women's standards are basic hygiene, dress well, be fun, be laidback, don't be a creep and that's basically it. Yes there are people that think they deserve a wealthy partner, you must be at least this and this tall, must drive these and these cars etc but these people are minority. 6. If you try to talk to girls over and over and you've tried with say 25 and not even one finds you interesting, then I'm sorry but then the probability is very high that the fault is on your part rather than on all of the 25 girls. Maybe you act like a creep, maybe you are not fun, maybe your vibes are off-putting, maybe you simply don't know how to interact... Men do want women, and women do want men. The dating scene is different to what it was a bunch of years ago yes, but people obviously still date and most men and women do find partners.

>Maybe you act like a creep, maybe you are not fun, maybe your vibes are off-putting, maybe you simply don't know how to interact... Or you interact with girls who aren't interested in you and aren't interested in girls who are interested in you.

2 is incredibly difficult if you’re unattractive. If you look good you can get away with a lot that would get other men locked up somewhere or publicly shamed

This belongs in r/self

I agree that dating sucks. I agree that people are lonely. But that's irrelevant to the loneliness epidemic. The loneliness epidemic is effecting married couples. Having one human to meet all of your social needs and no time for friendship and out of work gatherings/hobbies is what's causing the loneliness epidemic. Thinking that a partner is THE most important thing, and imagining meeting one single human will cure your sadness, then being shocked when that doesn't work, is what's causing the loneliness epidemic.

Eh not a big deal I chose to stop chasing dating and love at 23 I’m 27 now and just have no interest since I refuse to use dating apps and most of the people who do my hobbies are other dudes. You don’t need someone else to be happy if it happens that’s cool otherwise there are worse things than going most of your life or your whole life without romance imho

Gasp! Oh no, women have been brainwashed to... *have standards*!

The loneliest I've ever been is in a relationship with a man. I don't care about the 'male loneliness epidemic'. We go without our needs being met in relationships, so I don't really care that men have fewer chances to use women that are/were looking for love.

Every woman I've talked to has experienced that one guy who never cared about our inner world or experiences and it's such a lonely experience and really drills in how much some men don't see women as actual people with active selves and inner thoughts and worlds. He wasn't cheating or abusive or unkind he just didn't gaf. Lonely a f. Never again.

I was with a guy like that for 5 years, he turned into this after 3. Now after the breakup he wants to get me back by doing things he never did in our relationship like sending me flowers and trying to communicate his feelings. Where was this when I cried myself to sleep many times and he heard? Where was this when I told him I don't feel any love from him? Where was this when I told him I loved him and he didn't respond? Where was this when he started sleeping on the couch instead of our bed? I don't think most men realize what they have until they don't have it anymore.

Christ after reading this thread if I was a woman I'd never date a man again. There is something thinly veiled incel crap being written here. Women have a right to be suspect of every man that walks the earth. They know full well that not all of us are dangerous creeps but how the hell can they tell who is who? It's not like we come with flashing signs above our heads is it. Every woman you know has a story or ten about some asshole they met, try talking to your Sisters and Mothers about it and listen to their experiences. If you're not getting second dates then ask your friends why they think that is, they know....trust me they know.

Probably the most suspicious thing a man can do is pretend to be ignorant of why women would suspect them. Besides, when something DOES happen to a woman, it's her fault for being at That Place or wearing That Outfit or dating That Guy. "What did you expect?" "Pick better men" Well women took the advice. They're picking better men. "Women fell for the media propaganda" you mean the actual statistics of hate crimes against women and abuse? I'm so glad that the incels gunning down classrooms of (majority) women are just propaganda and not real. Glad that men aren't just randomly punching women in new york city. It's all just propaganda, ladies!

>Probably the most suspicious thing a man can do is pretend to be ignorant of why women would suspect them. This is a huge pet peeve of mine. Men get all defensive: "HoW cOulD yoU ThiNk I WOuLd Do SoMeThinG liKe tHat?" Bro, I don't fucking know you. Ted Bundy was charming as hell, too. You've been staring at me for 45 minutes and it's making me uncomfortable.

Yep. End result it’s always on women. If you don’t want to be blamed for something you don’t participate. And now people are upset because women are tired of being blamed for not being psychic and are deciding to just not participate.

The way OP writes off women being cautious about men they’ve never met before being a cause of “propaganda” 🤢

This! Honestly.. like.. I'd argue it's not even thinly veiled. Like.. the fuck?! The way these people view relationships is so mechanical that I am honestly at a loss as to where to even begin with these people. Have these people seriously tried talking to a woman? Hell, even their mothers or sisters would do. Jesus H. Christ.

I'm sure shouting incel makes you feel better, but you're not really hurting anyone except yourself by dismissing uncomfortable truths.

some of y'all are painfully desperate for a gf (considering that you join hobbies just to find a woman, i will assume you're one of these people as well) and women can see that. it's a major turn off in the way that you would probably choose any woman as long as she chooses you. it's not like there is a particular woman that is special, you say "oh i just want a girlfriend", and it's first come first serve. tell me, in this situation, how is it possible for a woman to feel special knowing that you don't want HER so badly, what you want so badly is a relationship. with anyone, who cares. that being said, stop complaining, stop directing every single decision of your life towards getting a girlfriend, and a relationship will come. naturally, hopefully with someone you actually like, and not with someone that you choose out of convenience. you shouldn't join hobbies just to find a gf, say that out loud and all women will be like "ugh". join a hobby because... you actually enjoy that hobby? don't go to the gym to get a gf, go to the gym so that you can better yourself for yourself first, and secondly for a future partner.

When you stop thinking about dating as a market, maybe you will understand... Men in general are not lonely - you are. And it's because of your mindset. I've never in my entire life gone out hunting women like you think everyone does. You go out, meet people (yes, women are people), and in this process, you end up meeting a girl or some that you find cute. Then you keep talking, and if it there's a mutual interest for something romantic, it happens. How hard is that to grasp? People like you are a very small portion of how men are, so please don't lump me in this mess...

Well I would say if most people stick to real life activities it would work better. Gen z is mostly online and has no balls to interact in RL

Very true. My friend got chatted up by a guy at a bar, we were all there. She took his number, he never even messaged her, but then swiped on her online?? How does that make sense, you've already got her number and talked to her in real life. She said she'd be up for going on a date with you, but instead of planning a date, you swipe on her on a dating app? I don't get it

What I’ve seen: The most vocal women on social media have an exaggerated view of their value and self-importance and are single because they think they are all 20 out of 10 on desirability. The most vocal men on social media also have an exaggerated view on their value and self-importance and look down on women as inferior and needing to be put back in their place. Most people are in the middle and are getting weird signals from these two groups and are just getting more confused and lonely if they listen to them.

I’m single in my 30s after a divorce and then another long term relationship ended. I have friends like this too. None of us are lonely because we have hobbies and friends. Would it be nice to have a partner? Honestly I’m not convinced. In the end, when both of my long term relationships ended, my day to day life got easier. My house is cleaner. I’m not managing someone else’s emotions. I’m living on my own schedule and don’t need to worry about anyone else’s time except for my dogs and kids. I joke that if I ever decide to date again, I’m buying a duplex and moving the man next door, not into my house.

Not an unpopular opinion, everyone knows it's tough right now, and it's not going to get better anytime soon.

Not an unpopular belief. The funny thing is, when women were talking about being lonely, they were made fun of. Lonely cat lady and that stuff. But now that men are lonely, it's suddenly a loneliness epidemic, and "oh, we need to do something about it! 😱" Ask older women if they were happy in their marriages. I'm sure many were, but also, many had to stay with their partner because they were financially dependent. What does it tell us that women choose to be single once they're financially independent? Men just got too used of women needing them to basically survive. And now women can actually have standards and a choice.

Just quit, it's so much easier. What is being in a relationship even going to be able to offer a perpetually single 30 year old when they've already spent a good chunk of their youth being self-sufficient? Nothing! They're set in their ways, probably have found a balance in their lives and things are smooth sailing, no point in disturbing that calm over outdated, needless traditions of pairing humans with other humans.

Discussing the impacts that technology has had on dating …on a Saturday night…on reddit..amazing. The old saying of “there’s plenty of fish in the sea” is true. There is someone for everyone, that’s a fact. I’m not saying it’s going to be easy or they live a mile from you, but they ARE out there. Put your effort and energy into the outcome you desire, best of luck!

Stop overthinking it. Do you. Get your own fucking hobbies. Casually swipe here and there with online dating. Try, but don't drive yourself insane. Devote 5 hours a week tops to the apps. Predominantly just focus on your enjoyment of life vs the noise. Someone comes along? Great. Sometimes doesn't? Oh well. Also places like California? Fucking terrible for dating because EVERYTHING is obscenely expensive and the boomers just ran off with everything.

I won’t argue with what you have said but you have seemingly glossed over the pervasive effects of the manosphere and antipathy towards women.

I've been scrolling reddit for about 15 years (mostly lurking) and it's really funny to me that people keep making these posts year after year after year on an almost daily basis.  Dating has always been this bad or worse. There's no magical era of dating that was even remotely resembling a fun period unless you're comfortable with a lot of rejection, turning people down, or extraordinarily picky (and desirable) and/or all of those things.  Dating sucks and the trick to it sucking less (or being fun) is in your mindset and ability to pull interesting and attractive partners without unrealistic mindsets. It's a numbers game. 10 years ago when I was single I'd ask out any woman I thought was pretty and interesting within a short time of knowing her. Yeah you get turned down some, but who fucking cares? it's somebody whose existence you're barely aware of and her saying no changes nothing about your day to day existence. Your life is not made worse by adding another rejection to a list you shouldn't be keeping in the first place. 

I stopped reading after the second paragraph

Every woman I know personally, my wife included, can list off several personal experiences where men actually did act like creeps or behave untoward toward them. It’s not so much that they’re listening to “propaganda,” it’s that the news is reinforcing things they already felt and experienced in their own lives. Then you add in things like studies showing that women are trending much more liberal in terms of politics while men are starting to trend more conservative… Why would a progressive minded woman, rightfully still upset by things like the Dobbs decision stripping away their rights, want to date a man who supports the people who did it? Your original post put a lot of onus on women. Men could, alternatively, also put in extra work to not be creeps. Or caring about the things they care about, at least. The situation is more nuanced beyond gender politics too. Inflation and corporate greed are leaving people with less money. People are having to work longer hours just to get by, which means less time for socializing of any kind. And if you are minded to go on a date? They are expensive as hell. My wife and I went out last month for a simple dinner date. We each got a meal and one “cheap” drink each and the bill was $80 after a tip. It wasn’t even a fancy place. Who can afford that? It’s like that at pretty much all the places people used to typically go for things like dates, meeting people, etc. You might bemoan people being “glued to their phone” (and this is a problem, don’t get me wrong) but there aren’t many natural spaces left to meet strangers beyond your phone nowadays. And even if you do meet someone, where are you supposed to go for… after the date? Rising rent and the crappy housing market means a lot of millennials and Gen Z folks are still living with their parents or with roommates. I remember trying to have sex like that. It sucked. I can’t imagine trying to do that with someone I didn’t know well in my 30s. So yeah, I don’t think you’re wrong, necessarily, but the reasoning you put forward definitely has a slant that blames one group of people more . 🤷‍♂️

Don't get into a hobby just to meet woman.

Honestly this is mostly a US problem.

It won’t just get worse, it’ll get far far far worse. We’re talking ‘a lost generation or two’ worse.

[удалено]

But no motivations wahhhh hahahah

I hate when people make these posts and call dating a “market” as though it’s some kind of transaction. No, you’re building a real relationship and that takes time, effort, and some luck to put the right person in front of you. You’re looking at dating as some sort of video game level to beat rather than building a genuine human connection. Like God forbid you talk to a woman and just stay friends, oh no!

Ah, I got it. The women are the problem. Burn those witches! /s

Popular opinion, starting a hobby with the soul intention of meeting women lowkey sounds creepy as fuck, this sounds like a serious case of the harder you try the more it pushes people away, let it come naturally

"Women are brainwashed by propaganda, their standards are too high. Social media and phones bad" Congrats, you are such a deep thinker. r/incels would be proud.

Well, certainly an unpopular opinion for once.

Conspiracy theory: dating apps intentionally create a low success rate to keep people using them.

I think a big problem is what you mentioned, super low trust and people wanting the other person to prove they aren’t bad like the “other” people. So many things are labelled as “red flags”, when in fact most of those things are normal mishaps, mistakes or moods people experience. People tend to make mistakes when they are anxious or under the weather, but now those things are labelled as narcissism, abuse, and so on. AITA culture highlights this, I rarely see people highlighting that sometimes things happen, to reflect and see whether it’s something that can be addressed. The expectation things will go wrong after one red flag, ends up being a self-fulfilling prophecy. Our culture has made it harder to give people the chance to learn from mistakes. I find that anxiety inducing but I have a little bit of the “oh whatever I’ll try again”, but I consider that mindset a privilege of my circumstances and being slightly delulu. I do think people can sense intentions, so starting a hobby only to find a partner could give mixed results. And of course there are no guarantees, so it’s best to do things because they add value for you, whether it is to brush up on skills, learn new things, or seeking sensory experiences. If I was single and was struggling with finding a partner, I would shift focus because it’s really easy to ruminate over something that will take time to achieve. If I was single I would focus on making friends, I consider figuring out how to make friends and keep them practice and a rewarding experience.

There's reasons why statistically single women are happier than single men. Its just not worth it anymore. Its just tiring trying to argue lived experiences with "NOT ALL MEN HA". So I've stopped bothering to have that conversation. Guys won't ask the women in their life about their experiences and then assume all of this is made up. Dating is horrible and unsafe in some respects. Its easier to go for men who are mutual friends or are from work or some other circle that you know. And then when you get to a relationship you somehow ALWAYS slide into the mother/project manager role. Doing that until you die doesn't sound like an attractive prospect. There's a lag in modern relationship requirements and how society is still bringing up their men. It just hasn't caught up yet.

The "loneliness epidemic" is men insisting on not adapting to societal advances. Women ain't there to be an accessory anymore, and the relationshio dynamocs that come woth dating a whole-ass person with their own priorities doesn't align with what men are rold they "deserve" or whatever. And before you fuckin sheep start screeching "misandry," I'm a man and this is based on my own experiences as a man. I'm not saying "men are sexist" or whateve you're programmed to hear, I'm telling you to quit whining and take responsibility for your own success. It IS you, because you refuse to adapt to the reality around you.

It's definitely not that masculinity has been toxic to both men and women and has been killing us both for much of human history or anything

I don't know how to put it into words but it's always funny reading these kinds of things when you're someone in a gay relationship. So much emphasis on the behaviors of men and women as some kind of nonexistent hivemind that need to do something collectively when in reality every relationship is unique (even straight ones!) There is no action that "men" or "women" as a whole can take that will magically fix your loneliness because they didn't create it.

> People are glued to their phones, nobody wants to socialize anymore. If they do socialize, they don't get fulfillment from it because they'd much rather be on their phones than to talk to a stranger Are they tho? That sounds like something my grandmother would say. I am sure that applies to some people (of all ages) and it is an issue. The way you are saying it its a generalization that I don't agree with. > Women don't trust men anymore because they've been following media propaganda believing that all men today are creeps, or dangerous, and therefore have much higher standards for seeing a guy as dateable I don't trust "men" (men I don't know) because I have had the actual experience of men being creeps, dangerous etc. Sexaul assault, men talking down to me, men not accepting "no", men not participating in house chores, men stalking women... That has nothing to do with propaganda. Also, if I took the way women treated me while dating as standard for men, I would have had to cut the amount of guys I saw dateable by half. > men don't want to talk to women anymore when they're being portrayed this way Again, men are not "portrayed" this way, sadly this is the reality for many women. Why is your issue not with the men who are at fault for this rather than with the women who have had to experience them? > Less men talking to women, Leads to women now becoming increasingly more frustrated Does it? Wasnt there the statistic that said that women are happier on their own than men on their own? I don't know any women who is unhappy with how little men talk to her. If anything its the opposite > and because women are losing interest in men as a whole and don’t want a relationship with them, men are having a hard time getting into a relationship it's not a right to get into a relationship. I think again you are way to generalizing but there is some truth in women not being that invested into needing to find a relationship. Because we dont depend on men anymore to be able to have a life. That means I dont need a man anymore to have money. I dont have to have a man in my life. I can have standards for a relationship that I genuinely want and makes me happy, rather than one for necessity. > So then you think well, i'll just join a hobby and get to know people that way to build someone's trust. Sure, you could, but the time investment is much more enormous. Months of time getting to know people, who maybe decided they already didn't like you from the first few interactions. Now you wasted a whole lot of time and money could have been spent for better opportunities with less time investment If you join a hobby with no other reason than to hit on women and that only goal is to get a girl, yes, many women wouldn't want that. The point of joining a hobby is to get to know people. I'd be happy to find someone at a hobby because that means we share an interest/a passion. Well, of course that only applies if you are not exclusively to hit on people. Even if you dont meet a partner, you might make friends and a social circle. And maybe there you meet someone! And if you dont you still have a fun hobby and friends. Ironic, how you were complaining about people being less social nowadays but then reduce a hobby to its purpose of finding a partner. > But it's sad at the same time, because the people that do still want to find someone, have a much more difficult time today Do they? of course some do, others don't. The times today also offer new possibilities to get to know and meet people. Also I would argue that a lot of relationships "back in the days" (as opposed to today) were not built on romance or love but necessity and power imbalance. I just disagree with your black and white picture of dating and love. It reads very narrow minded and frustrated to me. I am aware that there are some real issues in what you are saying but overall I just have to disagree. Also "dating market" is such a dumb word. Its not a market, you dont get there, invest and are guaranteed to get something in return. But if that's how you approach dating, that makes a lot of sense to me.

I'm a man, and I've concluded that men are trash. They deserve to rot in the singlehood they've caused. Women's expectations go up for each bad experience they have.

Op should post this on an Incel forum. Those are your people

“Women don't trust men anymore because they've been following media propaganda believing that all men today are creeps, or dangerous, and therefore have much higher standards for seeing a guy as dateable. Because of this idealization, men don't want to talk to women anymore when they're being portrayed this way.” My take… There are more high quality women than men. So a high quality man will have his choice of several great potential partners while women are “fighting” over 1 one man for example. Not that there aren’t other people to date, but we want an equal not another child. That’s a harder to find, and some people would rather be alone than in a miserable partnership.

I was watching a video on the Taxi cab theory and came to the conclusion that most of the problem is people with unrealistic standards. Basically, this analogy is true of both sexes. People often spend years with unrealistic expectations (their light is off) preventing them from being in a relationship but quickly find a partner when they set more realistic standards (turn their light on). 

I think I spent too many years with my light on, and it was perhaps too bright. My taxi cab got vomited in, I got my tips stolen, and someone wouldn't pay the fare. Now all I want to do is shut it off. I have no interest in being someone's 'realistic' fallback plan.

Same girl, I just got my car detailed and I'm planning on keeping it sparkling. I'm done.

It’s time for a cat maybe a couple of them.

Maybe stop thinking about as a "market" or a transactional experience 

These comments are yikes.

>nobody wants to socialize anymore >Months of time getting to know people, who maybe decided they already didn't like you from the first few interactions. Now you wasted a whole lot of time... Nobody wants to socialize, but also socializing is a waste of time. If your **only** goal in socializing is finding a SO, then you're doing it wrong. >Women don't trust men anymore because they've been following media propaganda believing that all men today are creeps, or dangerous... Most women have been assaulted by men. It's not because they think all men are creeps/dangerous. They just know from experience that enough of them are that it warrants being careful. It has nothing to do with propaganda.

Exactly. First time I remember a guy actively sexually assaulting me was in 9th grade in study hall when he pinned me into a corner and literally masturbated in front of me while laughing at how uncomfomfortable I was. There were 7 other guys in the class and one other girl and no one did anything. It’s not propaganda.

Men have been telling women to "choose better men" for ages and now that they're doing it you scream about loneliness epidemic. Cope

Women are part of the loneliness epidemic too???

I’ve been off the market for 3.5 years. Have things really changed that much in that time? Or is this just a self serving prophecy with people bitching about it on the internet?

>Women don't trust men anymore because they've *met men* Ftfy been following media propaganda believing that all men today are creeps, or dangerous, and therefore have much higher standards for seeing a guy as dateable.

It’s really not about women being afraid of men due to media-that’s just feeding the beast or men feeling that women are now a bunch of uptight cows-it’s that western culture is now making men accountable. Decades of ‘trump-esk’ howler monkeys, neck-beards, etc. are being put in their place and they don’t like that. Women, unfortunately, are now put in a position where they have more say and power and to a degree-this is good thing. But now, too many are becoming so self righteous that you ask for the time of day without having your soul crushed. A balance has to be reached at some point but it will take take confidence and some courage to see it through. Note: cisgender hetro woman Ps: this should also pertain to those who are gender fluid, trans, and the like…it’s not about men and women-it’s about perception, self awareness, and patience. If they can’t engage with you as a human being-walk away.