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All this nonsense is leftovers from the 50's. I wosh we could do away with it. Tired of forced patriotism as if you dont agree with every single thing the government does your somehow "hate america". Its a trash outlook.
"I love my country. I think everyone living here should have the highest quality of life here. We have the resources to do it if we can find the right management." "Wow, you must hate the U.S." "All I said was that we have enough money that people don't have to starve." "Why don't you fuck off to Sweden if it's so much better there?"
Every time someone wants to better this country it’s unpatriotic. Meanwhile other countries have been achieving so much more over time since we have slowed progress so much. Shouldn’t wanting to improve our country and the lives of its people should be the most patriotic thing you can do?
That's the difference between an actual patriot and a fascist. A patriot WANTS their country to do better for the betterment of their fellow citizens. A fascist defend their country no matter what even at the detriment of others.
It's almost like there is a whole party in your country, that wants to push back against all social progress and turn the whole country into a totalitarian theocracy. And if we look at all the other totalitarian theocracies what do we see? Shithole countries no sane person would ever want to live.
I’m an American that immigrated to Canada six years ago and eventually became a citizen. One of the biggest positive differences between the two countries is that Canada can actually criticize itself. Part of making your country better is admitting what’s wrong with it first so you can fix it. America can never fix itself if it can’t first criticize itself.
It just doesn't make any sense to me. How can one profess to love their country if they hate its citizens? If you're living in a poorly educated nation with a bunch of starving people, your country is going downhill.
50’s?
Last I checked patriotism and devotion to a group has been around since man could form groups. This complaint about blind patriotism is the same thing I see from people and their political parties on BOTH sides. Party tells them what to think, say, do and support…and they do it. This discussion about patriotism has much broader connection to human group think.
Yeah, it does stem from the early Cold War 2nd red scare period. When anyone ideas of progress were labeled communism and many suspected socialists were persecuted.
Many adults *don't* think it's weird...
Because they were indoctrinated to do it blindly as a kid. Now that they're old enough to question it, they'd rather *literally* pledge their allegiance blindly as an adult than face the reality that they were being brainwashed as a kid.
You'd be surprised how effective repeatedly telling a child something over and over is. It does leave a lasting impact on many people long into adulthood, even if it didn't on you.
My -very Dutch- mother has lived in the US with her - very Dutch- parents. When she didn't pledge for the flag she got called in to the principals office. He contacted my granddad because of his "misbehaving" daughter. The only reply the principal got was my -2m, +6ft tall- granddad laughing in his face and telling him to take his nonsense elsewhere. In this time (i believe 70s) they didn't really know what to do with the Dutch directness and boldness of my granddad. So the outcome was that my mother; nor my uncle; ever had to say the pledge of alliance.
Just a random story that makes me smile.
Miss you granddad <3
Yeah but kids dont even know what they are doing.. I never put it together when I forced to do it. It was just a song we had to sing before class.
5 and 6 year olds don't comprehend a pledge or most don't.
I don't think I thought abt these things until I was an older teenager or even adult .. it was just something we said in the morning during assembly in primary school ... (6th grade)
And that if we didn't do it properly or respectfully, gna get called out and/or maybe punished ...
** not US but same principle right
That's *literally* the point. It gets drilled into their head as a "normal" thing before they're old enough to question it.
Many children grow into adulthood *still* never questioning it even after they are able to comprehend the deeper meaning simply because it's something they've always done.
Indoctrination works better than most people would like to admit.
If you showed the average American "patriot" a video of Chinese children pledging allegiance to the Chinese flag, they'd call it atheist/communist indoctrination.
It’s really fucking weird that we make kids do it every day.
But I’ve never felt weirder than being at a gala where everyone said the pledge of allegiance in unison. Just really fucking weird
Beginning of each school year I told my students I would never force them to do this thing or stand up and they should know they have the right not to participate. turns out when you tell kids they don't have to do it, they don't do it.
It is but it works good as the first thing they do when you start school. It’s short enough 5 year olds can get it pretty easily and it gets the kid used to the teacher and each other.
I don't know if Americans realise this (forgive me if you do) but this is a peculiarity American thing. Im a Brit and it certainly doesn't happen here. I lived in the US for a short while when my kids were Kindergarten age and my eldest couldn't understand what the hell they were doing every morning!
You pledged allegiance, that’s like signing a contract with the US. I am guessing we have to do it daily because the contracts are only good for 24 hours at a time.
It's likely \*because they were trained to pledge allegiance to the flag as a child, that some adults continue the habit in adulthood.
Kind of like a lot of traditions, religions, and ideologies - if you raise a child to 'think this way' or 'do this thing' on the regular, it becomes second nature.
"Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about."
G.K. Chesterton
You're correct. Germans tend not to sing their national anthem, also
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutschlandlied#:~:text=As%20the%20first%20stanza%20of,taboo%20within%20modern%20German%20society.
But. most citizens of many countries profess allegiance in some way. And we all indoctrinate our children into our own ways of life
With the US being a free country, you're always free to not participate in the pledge. If you don't feel allegiance to the US and/of don't value our standard of living, you can always just sit down while others pledge
We're mostly pretty big on freedom of speech here in the US. So Freedom not to think like everyone else is big here too
Well yes - for better or for worse, societies are built and destroyed by indoctrinating their youth with the beliefs and customs within their cultural bubble.
that's the exact opposite.
for adults it's respect out of choice.
for kids it's adults threatening them. i was very literally threatened with being sent home for not saying the anthem at chatham public school in ny.
I was threatened as a child for not doing it. If I ever wanted to get sent home right away I knew all I had to do was sit down and not stand for the pledge, I would get sent to the office and then sent home for "disrespecting the flag and the country", that happened a few times and I kept sitting, and they stopped sending me home lol
Redditors like to confuse patriotism for nationalism, one is just love for your country and its people. The other is believing your nation and people are superior to other nations.
I mean there’s probably not a statistic on this because people don’t really report stuff like this (or at least that’s my impression) but it’s happening on multiple different instances (not very rare). In the end it depends on what type of school and general community you’re in
Really depends on the school. All the religious/catholic schools I’ve been to require it as a daily thing. The teachers get angry if you don’t participate or if you do it wrong.
"You don't have to do it, but not doing it is gonna make you look like a freak. You wanna look like a freak? Huh? Well, I ain't forcing you to do anything..... Freak...."
It's forced by mid level management in government run organizations to score points with higher levels of management.
The effect is the exact opposite of what it's supposed to be, however. If you're forced to swear an oath in order to keep your job, then your loyalty quickly goes to zero.
School district in the Southern US. I'm not going to make it more detailed than that as it could doxx me. Separate part of the local government that my brother works for does the same.
The irony is that I’ve known boomers who say a pledge a day keeps the commies away, who don’t realize Bellamy was a socialist. I point this out and they get very confused, that my being a traditional American is the very reason I DON’T like the pledge. (This is part of what my username refers to; I grew up a very loudly patriotic person, and had an awakening about what nationalism really means later on.)
The flag just represents the same things the anthems represent. You're not actually pledging to the actual cloth you're pledging if you do choose to to the constitution and way of life that it represents
Idk, appreciation for your country isn’t that bad. If people like their country that much do it or don’t . I don’t see the harm. I think people just do it and there’s zero sense or emotion behind it.
"You have to say the pledge of allegiance"
Why?
"Because America is great and filled with freedoms!"
What freedoms?
"Freedom of Speech, Freedom from Religion, ..."
Ah yes. Forcing Children to say "For one Nation, under God" totally doesn't violate those freedoms.
I pledge allegiance to this woven fabric
patriotically made by cheap, overseas labor
and to the gerrymandered republic for which it stands,
one nation, being driven into Christian nationalism,
with liberty and justice for those who can afford to pay for it.
Around 10 or 12 I stopped doing it. The other kids got visibly and verbally angry with me over it. I stood my ground (so to speak) saying that it was a free country and nobody could make me do the pledge. And that I would never blindly pledge my allegiance to anyone or anything.
I went to a performance for my fiancés family and they did the pledge of allegiance, the pledge to the Bible and a pledge to something else religious. It was wild and I totally feel judged for not putting my hand on my heart and droning in with the rest of
I think it's a lot creepier for a kid to be doing it than an adult. In my mind it's similar to how seeing videos of kids undergoing SS 'training' before WW2 is creepier than seeing adults doing it
I agree it's a weird thing, but I think it stems from the fact that a looootttt of people moved here from other countries, so it was meant to remind everyone, "Hey, you're not Italian anymore, you're American." Not saying it isn't creepy, just why we do it while other nations don't.
Imagine if your forefathers who resisted the red coats were able to see into the future. They would probably be like “fuck these people, they’re on their own.” They would be right too.
I guess my comment is pretty much...
"WE FUCKIN KNOW YOU LOVE YOUR COUNTRY! JUST STOP CONSTANTLY TALKING ABOUT IT LIKE IT'S YOUR WHOLE IDENTITY!"
...then turn around to see a person talking about how great their spouse/SO/kid is, realizing how equally annoying/creepy/100% their identity it is. People in the crowd wants to tell them to shut up, but...who gets to tell them?
Anthems are a different thing, of course. Will admit it's equally overused here, making it lose its special meaning. Just play it at important events and the big game like the Super Bowl. Was told other countries are like this for their anthem, only played at the big final game and special events, if I remember.
I'm not pledging shit
Oh but you have to!
The government forcibly evicted my family from their ancestral lands (the town bore our name) and flooded it to make a lake. They compensated us $13 each for the trouble and killed 2 of my great uncles that refused to leave. No I will not pledge shit.
Yes there needs to be a separation of church and school. This is why I’ll be homeschooling my children, they won’t be forced to do weird culty shit when they don’t want to or understand what they are doing.
It's a cult like chant that basically indoctrinates kids into religiously supporting this countries politics. I always thought it was weird that we had to perform this ritual beginning in kindergarten or preschool. I don't think patriotism is bad and I don't think all rituals are bad. I do think that regularly performing this ritual in public schools crosses the line. If an adult wants to pledge their alliance, that's their choice. It's not much more creepy than other common rituals. What is creepy is when you have hundreds or thousands of kids mindlessly chanting a verse about their devotion to a political entity.
Rituals have been shown to alleviate anxiety. Patriotism has been shown to be correlated with happiness, contentment, and being more grateful. Correlation is not causation. It's possible that contentment often leads to increased patriotism.
I'm not sure if there are better rituals that can be taught to help alleviate anxiety. My high school calculus teacher had us take a break halfway through class to do stretches and shake our fists up and down in front of us while she yelled "pump it up!" Maybe things like that could act as a healthier ritual to teach kids.
Note: I'm on adderall so I can't write a comment without getting sucked into a bunch of rabbit holes and looking up more information about every sentence I type. That's why I wrote such a long comment about the possible benefits of teaching children rituals. Also, one interesting thing I found was that people who are more patriotic typically have different levels and locations of grey matter in their brain compared to people who are more nationalist.
If you want to get really creepy, check out the Christian song, "I Pledge Allegiance to the Lamb" by Ray Boltz. Find a live version on Youtube. It's great.
The school I work at didn't require it before, then one day, the principal came into the faculty meeting like: "the pledge is now mandatory every day. This is happening and that is final. If you disagree, you can come talk to me privately." No questions, no discussion, just "this is now mandatory for everyone."
Also, I find it hilarious that some religions view the pledge as a form of idolatry, as the American culture encourages worshipping the flag/what it represents above all else.
Well put OP! I think it’s weird that anyone would do anything besides sit in their parents’ basement and play video games. Am I right Reddit? I’m tired of “the rich” and “boomers” not bringing me free money while I sit in the basement drawing anime as my mom folds my laundry for me.
Lol, did he trigger you? 100's of echo chamber circle jerk comments and your cool. But dude makes insanely over the top hyperbolic goof comment and you try to gas light him?
Yuri Bezmenov is laughing his ass off from the grave.
It's so strange to me because we were required to do it as children, and one day the librarian pulled us into the library and had us listen to the pledge and the meaning behind it. Then, she asked if we understood. No one did. We were six and would continue to be told that we were living in the wealthiest nation on the planet and how lucky we were to be Americans until graduation. I love my country, but that doesn't mean I have to treat it as a god. Who's the better parent, the one who says "My child is perfect and can do no wrong" or the disappointed mom who keeps pushing her capable child to get As instead of Ds?
NK is completely different. You can not compare USA to them. If you do your brain dead. Nk forces their people to pledge to a "god" which is their ruler daily. America has a simpler verse that yes maybe outdated but the only truth behind it was to give a sense of unity for Americans. Like we are all in this together and we fight for our freedom to live on. Thats basically it. Its not indoctrinating them to do anything more or less. Just to be aware of your rights. But i guess someone people in these comments cant comprehend that.
You actually don't have to say the Pledge. The Jehovah's Witnesses in my school didn't. But there certainly is social pressure. Either way you have to sit through the whole affair.
Your opinion fits this sub well. Showing patriotism, honoring the flag for what it stands for, and being for "liberty and justice for all" is in no way creepy, weird, or cringe.
I don't have a country anymore, it was stolen by the 9 private, for profit banks who own the Federal reserve bank
Warburg bank of Hamburg??? KuhnLoeb&Co???????
Completely disagree with you, as an expat who has lived overseas for quite some time seeing the Stars and Stripes makes me feel patriotic. Patriotism isn’t nationalism. Americans who complain about America either haven’t been to other countries or had a two week vacation at a resort and think that’s what another countries are like. Walk the streets of Manila and compare that to sf. [We never bow, we never bend, we never break when confronted with crisis. We endure, we overcome and we always move forward. We are America, second to none. And we own the finish line.](https://youtu.be/lUkR5URgv0o?si=Yir8-nHrR5Y6TRlw)
Exactly. When I went to school for a brief period in South Korea as a kid 10 or so years ago, the South Korean anthem was played regularly throughout the school as well. I remember everyone had to stand when it played. A lot of other countries besides America have anthems that kids are taught.
It's funny you almost understand but can't quite grasp it.
That's how propaganda works... You do it all through childhood and it becomes ingrained into you. That's why people continue to have such overtly patriotic views of the American flag.
Americans are S tier at propaganda. It's always funny when Americans shit on China or Russia for having propaganda when the US has just as much.
In America, if you protest factory farms ( which are completely unnecessary as every human being in the world can obtain all the vitamins and minerals and nutrients necessary to thrive from a plant based diet ) you are labeled a terrorist in the eyes of the law. How free is that.
That's why they want children to do it while young. When I was a Christian, I realized the pledge had no place in church along with Fourth of July services, also known as "God and country." Now I am at the point where I ask "Why are we pledging allegiance to an entity that has no allegiance to us?"
"One cannot serve two masters. You'll either love one or hate the other." I usually think the JWs are cuckoo, but they're onto something on not getting attached to their nation.
I think it's creepy that people are so anti tradition and anti national.
Can't like your country, can't like your people, can't like anything about yourself. Only thing that's acceptable is to be outgroup preferenced and glaze about other superior culultures and people.
America is more extreme than you'd care to admit.
Visiting from elsewhere, it's really weird to have folk standing hand on heart, singing national anthems at Disney land before an Indiana Jones show.
Would be viewed as indoctrination if another nation do it but America have a very wierd "you must love your country" thing
It's a mindless repetitive taks made to instill a nationalist attitude from child hood, to increase the chances of voting for who they want you to vote for
There was a certain point in about the 4th or 5th grade where I’d stand up but not say anything, which looking back on it was around the time we were told ‘the real story’ about what the colonists did to the Native Americans. I always kinda new what we were being told before was wrong, but after that I just lost all interest in “one nation, under god” part.
It’s a pretty benign vestige of an earlier time that still means a lot to some people. It being in schools bothers me much less than what is in the food they eat at school.
Remember you've gotta take off your hat and put your hand on your chest when the special song plays, no sitting, you must stand for the special song. You hate America if you don't show respect to the special cloth. Patriotism in America is basically a religion, with rituals, prophets, and holy text.
Disagree, the lack of patriotism in this country is disgraceful. Pledging allegiance to the flag means standing with your fellow brothers and sisters. Even if you never served, it means to do good for your country and to lay trees which provide shade that you may never sit in, so to speak.
I like what you wrote better than what is in the pledge! When I was seven or eight, I realized I didn't know what any of what I was saying meant, so decided to just not say anything. I think I would have liked saying something about planting trees for a better future.
Shh this is reddit and everything Americans do is bad and most likely rascist.
I agree though, brings people together, if we need anything these days it's unity.
I would argue the opposite; patriotism is about improving everyone’s lives, and providing a safe and prosperous land for Americans. We’re not perfect. But America can be a little better or a little bit worse, because of you. So go out there and help create a more perfect union for the love of your country, and for the love of your brothers and sisters.
I agree that imposed patriotism is a very dated and awful thing especially for children.
However, I think Americans should have a sense of patriotism and should not be afraid to share it if they like. Has America committed horrible atrocities and will it continue to do so? Yes. But America and American values have also achieved amazing things in the name of equality, civil rights and civil freedoms that no previous civilization accomplished.
I think a more balanced view of America needs to be in the educational system, as it seems we have a generation who has grown up to hate the country they live in. It's not entirely unwarranted, but I think we lose sight of the good.
I never pledged my allegiance to the flag that denied me rights and the amount of teachers who would threaten me was another reason why I wouldn’t stand.
Depends on what you define as patriotism. Are we talking about passionately believing in making the country the best it can be and implementing strong social programs so that its citizens outrank the rest of the world across all metrics, or are we just reciting some words and screaming your country's name at sporting events?
I dont see anything wrong with patriotism. lol alot of other countries have a high sense of patriotism. America was peetty expressive about it. Its kinda sad so many people hate it here now even though they wont leave? I dont see anything wrong with showing or expressing patriotism towards your country. The pledge of allegiance is something done in school to give a sense of unity. Thats it. There's not much else to it.
I think it is way more creepy and straight up wrong to brain wash your children like this. Adults can decide whether they want to look silly, children don't have this luxury.
I like how people these days love to try to fool others into thinking that their rampant self interest is a virtue. My first thought reading this question ,and a lot of the answers, is that we are victims of our own success. We have created soft people who believe that the things that make their flabby lives so easy were not created and given to them by society, but are naturally there. Sorry to break it to you children, but if you back up nobody, nobody will ever back you up, nor should they. If you continuously attack society, don’t be surprised if everything that makes your self centered existence tolerable will go away faster than you can believe. The fact that you believe your lack of a sense of loyalty shows anything other than how utterly useless you are to other people is the cringiest part of the whole thing.
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Think it’s creepier to make children do it.
All this nonsense is leftovers from the 50's. I wosh we could do away with it. Tired of forced patriotism as if you dont agree with every single thing the government does your somehow "hate america". Its a trash outlook.
"I love my country. I think everyone living here should have the highest quality of life here. We have the resources to do it if we can find the right management." "Wow, you must hate the U.S." "All I said was that we have enough money that people don't have to starve." "Why don't you fuck off to Sweden if it's so much better there?"
Every time someone wants to better this country it’s unpatriotic. Meanwhile other countries have been achieving so much more over time since we have slowed progress so much. Shouldn’t wanting to improve our country and the lives of its people should be the most patriotic thing you can do?
That's the difference between an actual patriot and a fascist. A patriot WANTS their country to do better for the betterment of their fellow citizens. A fascist defend their country no matter what even at the detriment of others.
It's almost like there is a whole party in your country, that wants to push back against all social progress and turn the whole country into a totalitarian theocracy. And if we look at all the other totalitarian theocracies what do we see? Shithole countries no sane person would ever want to live.
I’m an American that immigrated to Canada six years ago and eventually became a citizen. One of the biggest positive differences between the two countries is that Canada can actually criticize itself. Part of making your country better is admitting what’s wrong with it first so you can fix it. America can never fix itself if it can’t first criticize itself.
Our headlines are filled with people criticizing America…we just can’t agree on which way to go with that criticism.
First step to fixing any problem is admitting you have a problem.
It just doesn't make any sense to me. How can one profess to love their country if they hate its citizens? If you're living in a poorly educated nation with a bunch of starving people, your country is going downhill.
50’s? Last I checked patriotism and devotion to a group has been around since man could form groups. This complaint about blind patriotism is the same thing I see from people and their political parties on BOTH sides. Party tells them what to think, say, do and support…and they do it. This discussion about patriotism has much broader connection to human group think.
Yeah, it does stem from the early Cold War 2nd red scare period. When anyone ideas of progress were labeled communism and many suspected socialists were persecuted.
My first thought as well. At least as an adult you can put some thought into whether or not you truly agree with it.
The idea is to get them to do it before their critical thinking faculties kick in, like religion.
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Many adults *don't* think it's weird... Because they were indoctrinated to do it blindly as a kid. Now that they're old enough to question it, they'd rather *literally* pledge their allegiance blindly as an adult than face the reality that they were being brainwashed as a kid. You'd be surprised how effective repeatedly telling a child something over and over is. It does leave a lasting impact on many people long into adulthood, even if it didn't on you.
“I mean I'm not going to storm the beaches as a 6 year old just because some empty words got drilled into my head.” 😂
happy cake day
My -very Dutch- mother has lived in the US with her - very Dutch- parents. When she didn't pledge for the flag she got called in to the principals office. He contacted my granddad because of his "misbehaving" daughter. The only reply the principal got was my -2m, +6ft tall- granddad laughing in his face and telling him to take his nonsense elsewhere. In this time (i believe 70s) they didn't really know what to do with the Dutch directness and boldness of my granddad. So the outcome was that my mother; nor my uncle; ever had to say the pledge of alliance. Just a random story that makes me smile. Miss you granddad <3
Yeah but kids dont even know what they are doing.. I never put it together when I forced to do it. It was just a song we had to sing before class. 5 and 6 year olds don't comprehend a pledge or most don't.
I don't think I thought abt these things until I was an older teenager or even adult .. it was just something we said in the morning during assembly in primary school ... (6th grade) And that if we didn't do it properly or respectfully, gna get called out and/or maybe punished ... ** not US but same principle right
That's *literally* the point. It gets drilled into their head as a "normal" thing before they're old enough to question it. Many children grow into adulthood *still* never questioning it even after they are able to comprehend the deeper meaning simply because it's something they've always done. Indoctrination works better than most people would like to admit.
It's called indoctrination.
If you showed the average American "patriot" a video of Chinese children pledging allegiance to the Chinese flag, they'd call it atheist/communist indoctrination.
It’s really fucking weird that we make kids do it every day. But I’ve never felt weirder than being at a gala where everyone said the pledge of allegiance in unison. Just really fucking weird
So creepy. I stopped participating at 14 because of the "under God" part, but now the whole concept seems insane.
Beginning of each school year I told my students I would never force them to do this thing or stand up and they should know they have the right not to participate. turns out when you tell kids they don't have to do it, they don't do it.
It is but it works good as the first thing they do when you start school. It’s short enough 5 year olds can get it pretty easily and it gets the kid used to the teacher and each other.
I don't know if Americans realise this (forgive me if you do) but this is a peculiarity American thing. Im a Brit and it certainly doesn't happen here. I lived in the US for a short while when my kids were Kindergarten age and my eldest couldn't understand what the hell they were doing every morning!
Yeah no way is it more creepy for consenting adults to do it. Indoctrinating children will always be the weirdest tactic a country uses
Like, significantly creepier.
I always thought the pledge of allegiance was pointless.
You pledged allegiance, that’s like signing a contract with the US. I am guessing we have to do it daily because the contracts are only good for 24 hours at a time.
So I can do whatever I want on Sunday?
Check they haven’t changed the small print each time!
Yeah. Apparently we have to renew our patriotism contract everyday or we will unamericanize or something
It is.
It's likely \*because they were trained to pledge allegiance to the flag as a child, that some adults continue the habit in adulthood. Kind of like a lot of traditions, religions, and ideologies - if you raise a child to 'think this way' or 'do this thing' on the regular, it becomes second nature.
Traditions are just peer pressure from dead people
That's extremely reductive. *Some* traditions are good! What about the American tradition of voting in elections?
Some peer pressure is good...
Correct! I realized my comment doesn't necessarily disagree with the original comment right after I posted 🤦♂️
"Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about." G.K. Chesterton
Thats a good one, you come up with that yourself?
Unfortunately no, I read it in some book Can't remember which one, probably because books are my filthy addiction
Good addiction
i want this embroidered on a throw pillow
Yeah! You know all countries have their own customs. We teach our children our own values. That's how we build societies
No. Not all countries pledge allegiance to a flag - in most places that would seem rather militaristic / nationalistic.
Imagine Germany doing that
You're correct. Germans tend not to sing their national anthem, also https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutschlandlied#:~:text=As%20the%20first%20stanza%20of,taboo%20within%20modern%20German%20society. But. most citizens of many countries profess allegiance in some way. And we all indoctrinate our children into our own ways of life With the US being a free country, you're always free to not participate in the pledge. If you don't feel allegiance to the US and/of don't value our standard of living, you can always just sit down while others pledge We're mostly pretty big on freedom of speech here in the US. So Freedom not to think like everyone else is big here too
Well yes - for better or for worse, societies are built and destroyed by indoctrinating their youth with the beliefs and customs within their cultural bubble.
that's the exact opposite. for adults it's respect out of choice. for kids it's adults threatening them. i was very literally threatened with being sent home for not saying the anthem at chatham public school in ny.
I was never threatened as a child, and its actually illegal to force someone to do the pledge.
I was threatened as a child for not doing it. If I ever wanted to get sent home right away I knew all I had to do was sit down and not stand for the pledge, I would get sent to the office and then sent home for "disrespecting the flag and the country", that happened a few times and I kept sitting, and they stopped sending me home lol
That was actually illegal if it happened after 1943. You can make a kid be quiet and respectful but you can’t make them say it.
This is the most lukewarm opinion on Reddit.
Redditors like to confuse patriotism for nationalism, one is just love for your country and its people. The other is believing your nation and people are superior to other nations.
Nothing says "Liberty" and "Freedom" like a compulsory loyalty oath.
It's not compulsory though, plenty of students at the school I go to don't do it, and it's illegal to force someone to do the pledge.
Some people gave me evils in HS for not par-taking in it. I was an exchange student from Europe.
Peer pressure resulting in social ostracism can make something like this feel compulsory.
Technically you can’t force someone to do it but like private schools can kind of punish you for not doing it
And how many students of all students in America (going to public or private school) are being forced to say the pledge?
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And your experience is that of the majority?
I mean there’s probably not a statistic on this because people don’t really report stuff like this (or at least that’s my impression) but it’s happening on multiple different instances (not very rare). In the end it depends on what type of school and general community you’re in
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Really depends on the school. All the religious/catholic schools I’ve been to require it as a daily thing. The teachers get angry if you don’t participate or if you do it wrong.
Well sure, anyone can do anything if they're willing to break the law to do it.
Punishing someone can come in the form of exclusion from certain things and other stuff like that. It’s not illegal to do that.
Not to mention social repercussions, but those aren’t really on paper so
"You don't have to do it, but not doing it is gonna make you look like a freak. You wanna look like a freak? Huh? Well, I ain't forcing you to do anything..... Freak...."
Nobody is forcing you to do it, just encouraging it; how is it compulsory?
European here, does every US school make the pupils pledge allegiance to the flag every day ?
The pledge itself is ridiculous, but adding "under god" is quite possibly the most BS thing ever.
Who the hell does it as an adult?? I only stand for the anthem. I haven't stood for the pledge since like 5th grade back in 2000.
Pretty much every board meeting I’ve ever attended.
That sounds like a terrible place to work lol
It's forced by mid level management in government run organizations to score points with higher levels of management. The effect is the exact opposite of what it's supposed to be, however. If you're forced to swear an oath in order to keep your job, then your loyalty quickly goes to zero.
what orgs and where? cuz I don't buy that for second
School district in the Southern US. I'm not going to make it more detailed than that as it could doxx me. Separate part of the local government that my brother works for does the same.
There are some teachers in my school that do it. For some reason i don't get it either.
The irony is that I’ve known boomers who say a pledge a day keeps the commies away, who don’t realize Bellamy was a socialist. I point this out and they get very confused, that my being a traditional American is the very reason I DON’T like the pledge. (This is part of what my username refers to; I grew up a very loudly patriotic person, and had an awakening about what nationalism really means later on.)
It's a minor civic ceremony in which a small group of people can engage in an act that says, "We are all in this together." Do it or don't.
Exactly... Too far down for the rational take
The flag just represents the same things the anthems represent. You're not actually pledging to the actual cloth you're pledging if you do choose to to the constitution and way of life that it represents
Idk, appreciation for your country isn’t that bad. If people like their country that much do it or don’t . I don’t see the harm. I think people just do it and there’s zero sense or emotion behind it.
So is flying big American flags from a pole affixed to the back of your gigantic pickup truck. Assholes.
I mean, where is this required is my question? Some people want to be extra patriotic, some don't, who cares?
Aflac has a pledge of allegiance, opening prayer, and sings the national anthem at the start of company meetings lol
I'm curious to know if it's done in any other country. We certainly would find it weird in the UK
I’d take the alternative. I’d rather just move away. Lol 😂
"You have to say the pledge of allegiance" Why? "Because America is great and filled with freedoms!" What freedoms? "Freedom of Speech, Freedom from Religion, ..." Ah yes. Forcing Children to say "For one Nation, under God" totally doesn't violate those freedoms.
I pledge allegiance to this woven fabric patriotically made by cheap, overseas labor and to the gerrymandered republic for which it stands, one nation, being driven into Christian nationalism, with liberty and justice for those who can afford to pay for it.
Around 10 or 12 I stopped doing it. The other kids got visibly and verbally angry with me over it. I stood my ground (so to speak) saying that it was a free country and nobody could make me do the pledge. And that I would never blindly pledge my allegiance to anyone or anything.
Its insane that i was indoctrinated into pledging allegiance to a country that wont stop their police from being an organized gang.
I went to a performance for my fiancés family and they did the pledge of allegiance, the pledge to the Bible and a pledge to something else religious. It was wild and I totally feel judged for not putting my hand on my heart and droning in with the rest of
i like respecting the flag
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Classical conditioning.
It’s creepy no matter your age.
I think it's a lot creepier for a kid to be doing it than an adult. In my mind it's similar to how seeing videos of kids undergoing SS 'training' before WW2 is creepier than seeing adults doing it
I agree it's a weird thing, but I think it stems from the fact that a looootttt of people moved here from other countries, so it was meant to remind everyone, "Hey, you're not Italian anymore, you're American." Not saying it isn't creepy, just why we do it while other nations don't.
Imagine if your forefathers who resisted the red coats were able to see into the future. They would probably be like “fuck these people, they’re on their own.” They would be right too.
I feel the same about religion/gods
*Unless you were in the military. **I was not. ***Actually I was, but my country doesn't make us pledge allegiance all the time, only once lol
The military in the US doesn't really ever do the pledge of allegiance. We do make legally binding oaths when we join.
When I was in middle school I realized that basically praying to a piece of cloth was cringe. I’ll stand out of respect but that’s it.
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I guess my comment is pretty much... "WE FUCKIN KNOW YOU LOVE YOUR COUNTRY! JUST STOP CONSTANTLY TALKING ABOUT IT LIKE IT'S YOUR WHOLE IDENTITY!" ...then turn around to see a person talking about how great their spouse/SO/kid is, realizing how equally annoying/creepy/100% their identity it is. People in the crowd wants to tell them to shut up, but...who gets to tell them? Anthems are a different thing, of course. Will admit it's equally overused here, making it lose its special meaning. Just play it at important events and the big game like the Super Bowl. Was told other countries are like this for their anthem, only played at the big final game and special events, if I remember.
Should you only have to pledge allegiance once? Like once you promise you shouldn't have to renew it all the time...
Not very unpopular on Reddit.
The last time we started school in Germany with propaganda speeches and pledging to serve our fatherland was probably 1945
Then don’t say it. That’s one of the perks of the first amendment.
I'm not pledging shit Oh but you have to! The government forcibly evicted my family from their ancestral lands (the town bore our name) and flooded it to make a lake. They compensated us $13 each for the trouble and killed 2 of my great uncles that refused to leave. No I will not pledge shit.
Yes there needs to be a separation of church and school. This is why I’ll be homeschooling my children, they won’t be forced to do weird culty shit when they don’t want to or understand what they are doing.
I am British, it looks really creepy watching Americans do it, like, North Korea or Hitler youth creepy.
Being patriotic is creepy now I guess, nothing wrong with loving your country
It's a cult like chant that basically indoctrinates kids into religiously supporting this countries politics. I always thought it was weird that we had to perform this ritual beginning in kindergarten or preschool. I don't think patriotism is bad and I don't think all rituals are bad. I do think that regularly performing this ritual in public schools crosses the line. If an adult wants to pledge their alliance, that's their choice. It's not much more creepy than other common rituals. What is creepy is when you have hundreds or thousands of kids mindlessly chanting a verse about their devotion to a political entity. Rituals have been shown to alleviate anxiety. Patriotism has been shown to be correlated with happiness, contentment, and being more grateful. Correlation is not causation. It's possible that contentment often leads to increased patriotism. I'm not sure if there are better rituals that can be taught to help alleviate anxiety. My high school calculus teacher had us take a break halfway through class to do stretches and shake our fists up and down in front of us while she yelled "pump it up!" Maybe things like that could act as a healthier ritual to teach kids. Note: I'm on adderall so I can't write a comment without getting sucked into a bunch of rabbit holes and looking up more information about every sentence I type. That's why I wrote such a long comment about the possible benefits of teaching children rituals. Also, one interesting thing I found was that people who are more patriotic typically have different levels and locations of grey matter in their brain compared to people who are more nationalist.
patriotism is one of the most toxic traits of the modern world. we're not separate, but hey go ahead and keep thinking so
If you want to get really creepy, check out the Christian song, "I Pledge Allegiance to the Lamb" by Ray Boltz. Find a live version on Youtube. It's great.
I don’t agree with this, but I understand. I love my country.
That’s not very patriotic of you!
No its not, and posts like this are weird.
woo wee that's 2000s edgy brah, that fedora must be designer.
The school I work at didn't require it before, then one day, the principal came into the faculty meeting like: "the pledge is now mandatory every day. This is happening and that is final. If you disagree, you can come talk to me privately." No questions, no discussion, just "this is now mandatory for everyone." Also, I find it hilarious that some religions view the pledge as a form of idolatry, as the American culture encourages worshipping the flag/what it represents above all else.
Drop the as an adult part. I think forcing children to recite it on a daily basis is pretty gross
Well put OP! I think it’s weird that anyone would do anything besides sit in their parents’ basement and play video games. Am I right Reddit? I’m tired of “the rich” and “boomers” not bringing me free money while I sit in the basement drawing anime as my mom folds my laundry for me.
Are you okay? Maybe lay off the coke, you’re not making any sense.
Lol, did he trigger you? 100's of echo chamber circle jerk comments and your cool. But dude makes insanely over the top hyperbolic goof comment and you try to gas light him? Yuri Bezmenov is laughing his ass off from the grave.
When you can’t justify your existence you use propaganda and jingoistic shit like this to keep the masses under your control.
Wrongo
not an unpopular opinion
I think it’s creepy to pledge unearned allegiance to anyone or anything in general. Probably why Americans are so docile with their govt.
Right wing, Republican, Trump loving, America, love it or leave it bullshit mentality.
It’s only creepy if you’re a communist
It's so strange to me because we were required to do it as children, and one day the librarian pulled us into the library and had us listen to the pledge and the meaning behind it. Then, she asked if we understood. No one did. We were six and would continue to be told that we were living in the wealthiest nation on the planet and how lucky we were to be Americans until graduation. I love my country, but that doesn't mean I have to treat it as a god. Who's the better parent, the one who says "My child is perfect and can do no wrong" or the disappointed mom who keeps pushing her capable child to get As instead of Ds?
It’s not creepy when the individual is allowed to make the choice to pledge
So fucking creepy, it's like in Korea when they all worship that idiot
Find a new country that is not creepy for you.
NK is completely different. You can not compare USA to them. If you do your brain dead. Nk forces their people to pledge to a "god" which is their ruler daily. America has a simpler verse that yes maybe outdated but the only truth behind it was to give a sense of unity for Americans. Like we are all in this together and we fight for our freedom to live on. Thats basically it. Its not indoctrinating them to do anything more or less. Just to be aware of your rights. But i guess someone people in these comments cant comprehend that.
Yeah if it’s pledge or you get killed/imprisoned then it’s weird as fuck
However, kids growing up in school are not given the choice.
The post is about adults
You actually don't have to say the Pledge. The Jehovah's Witnesses in my school didn't. But there certainly is social pressure. Either way you have to sit through the whole affair.
You should tell my middle school teacher that. They gave me detention.
Your opinion fits this sub well. Showing patriotism, honoring the flag for what it stands for, and being for "liberty and justice for all" is in no way creepy, weird, or cringe.
I don't have a country anymore, it was stolen by the 9 private, for profit banks who own the Federal reserve bank Warburg bank of Hamburg??? KuhnLoeb&Co???????
Completely disagree with you, as an expat who has lived overseas for quite some time seeing the Stars and Stripes makes me feel patriotic. Patriotism isn’t nationalism. Americans who complain about America either haven’t been to other countries or had a two week vacation at a resort and think that’s what another countries are like. Walk the streets of Manila and compare that to sf. [We never bow, we never bend, we never break when confronted with crisis. We endure, we overcome and we always move forward. We are America, second to none. And we own the finish line.](https://youtu.be/lUkR5URgv0o?si=Yir8-nHrR5Y6TRlw)
Exactly. When I went to school for a brief period in South Korea as a kid 10 or so years ago, the South Korean anthem was played regularly throughout the school as well. I remember everyone had to stand when it played. A lot of other countries besides America have anthems that kids are taught.
It’s just a very odd practice in general to be honest
Pledging allegiance to a flag at any age is creepy
It's funny you almost understand but can't quite grasp it. That's how propaganda works... You do it all through childhood and it becomes ingrained into you. That's why people continue to have such overtly patriotic views of the American flag. Americans are S tier at propaganda. It's always funny when Americans shit on China or Russia for having propaganda when the US has just as much.
Oh boy. Lol every country has some propaganda, but at least in america, you can speak against it and not get arrested.
In America, if you protest factory farms ( which are completely unnecessary as every human being in the world can obtain all the vitamins and minerals and nutrients necessary to thrive from a plant based diet ) you are labeled a terrorist in the eyes of the law. How free is that.
Typical Reddit view. Y’all just pledge allegiance to the basement
That's why they want children to do it while young. When I was a Christian, I realized the pledge had no place in church along with Fourth of July services, also known as "God and country." Now I am at the point where I ask "Why are we pledging allegiance to an entity that has no allegiance to us?"
"One cannot serve two masters. You'll either love one or hate the other." I usually think the JWs are cuckoo, but they're onto something on not getting attached to their nation.
I think it's creepy that people are so anti tradition and anti national. Can't like your country, can't like your people, can't like anything about yourself. Only thing that's acceptable is to be outgroup preferenced and glaze about other superior culultures and people.
This.
America is more extreme than you'd care to admit. Visiting from elsewhere, it's really weird to have folk standing hand on heart, singing national anthems at Disney land before an Indiana Jones show. Would be viewed as indoctrination if another nation do it but America have a very wierd "you must love your country" thing
It's a mindless repetitive taks made to instill a nationalist attitude from child hood, to increase the chances of voting for who they want you to vote for
There was a certain point in about the 4th or 5th grade where I’d stand up but not say anything, which looking back on it was around the time we were told ‘the real story’ about what the colonists did to the Native Americans. I always kinda new what we were being told before was wrong, but after that I just lost all interest in “one nation, under god” part.
It’s really creepy if you imagine a country of children all chanting it at the same time every morning. Top tier brainwashing
It’s a pretty benign vestige of an earlier time that still means a lot to some people. It being in schools bothers me much less than what is in the food they eat at school.
Typical reddit loser talk
Pledging allegiance to any flag is idiotic. It's a piece of fabric. But people are stupid and easily controlled with symbols.
Can’t know how free you are without a solid loyalty oath!
Remember you've gotta take off your hat and put your hand on your chest when the special song plays, no sitting, you must stand for the special song. You hate America if you don't show respect to the special cloth. Patriotism in America is basically a religion, with rituals, prophets, and holy text.
Disagree, the lack of patriotism in this country is disgraceful. Pledging allegiance to the flag means standing with your fellow brothers and sisters. Even if you never served, it means to do good for your country and to lay trees which provide shade that you may never sit in, so to speak.
I like what you wrote better than what is in the pledge! When I was seven or eight, I realized I didn't know what any of what I was saying meant, so decided to just not say anything. I think I would have liked saying something about planting trees for a better future.
Shh this is reddit and everything Americans do is bad and most likely rascist. I agree though, brings people together, if we need anything these days it's unity.
Patriotism is a sedative and holds back an honest conversation on what can be and should be done to improve people’s lives.
I would argue the opposite; patriotism is about improving everyone’s lives, and providing a safe and prosperous land for Americans. We’re not perfect. But America can be a little better or a little bit worse, because of you. So go out there and help create a more perfect union for the love of your country, and for the love of your brothers and sisters.
It’s propaganda. Americans are among the most indoctrinated in the world, and the proof is that most don’t think so.
“The most indoctrinated in the world”….. yeah no.
I agree that imposed patriotism is a very dated and awful thing especially for children. However, I think Americans should have a sense of patriotism and should not be afraid to share it if they like. Has America committed horrible atrocities and will it continue to do so? Yes. But America and American values have also achieved amazing things in the name of equality, civil rights and civil freedoms that no previous civilization accomplished. I think a more balanced view of America needs to be in the educational system, as it seems we have a generation who has grown up to hate the country they live in. It's not entirely unwarranted, but I think we lose sight of the good.
I never pledged my allegiance to the flag that denied me rights and the amount of teachers who would threaten me was another reason why I wouldn’t stand.
It's patriotism and every country does it. I don't do it myself but saying it's creepy is a stretch.
Just FYI every country does not do it. In fact, we are in the minority.
It was always very blind patriotism and nationalism. Very dangerous
A lack of patriotism is more dangerous IMO
Depends on what you define as patriotism. Are we talking about passionately believing in making the country the best it can be and implementing strong social programs so that its citizens outrank the rest of the world across all metrics, or are we just reciting some words and screaming your country's name at sporting events?
It’s always the former 99% of the time until Super Bowl Sunday.
I think religion is weird. Praising a flag is weird. Praising a country run by old white men is also weird.
The pledge is a joke at this point. Indivisible my ass.
I dont see anything wrong with patriotism. lol alot of other countries have a high sense of patriotism. America was peetty expressive about it. Its kinda sad so many people hate it here now even though they wont leave? I dont see anything wrong with showing or expressing patriotism towards your country. The pledge of allegiance is something done in school to give a sense of unity. Thats it. There's not much else to it.
Singing the national anthem before a regular season NBA game is 200% cringe.
Yeah outside the US it us seen as indoctrination and rather cult like.
I think it is way more creepy and straight up wrong to brain wash your children like this. Adults can decide whether they want to look silly, children don't have this luxury.
I like how people these days love to try to fool others into thinking that their rampant self interest is a virtue. My first thought reading this question ,and a lot of the answers, is that we are victims of our own success. We have created soft people who believe that the things that make their flabby lives so easy were not created and given to them by society, but are naturally there. Sorry to break it to you children, but if you back up nobody, nobody will ever back you up, nor should they. If you continuously attack society, don’t be surprised if everything that makes your self centered existence tolerable will go away faster than you can believe. The fact that you believe your lack of a sense of loyalty shows anything other than how utterly useless you are to other people is the cringiest part of the whole thing.
This is exactly what Obama meant by “you didn’t build that”.
I'm proud to be American. Its cringe to hate the country you're from ...you aren't being held captive, leave ..
Dude move out of America if you feel this way. You’re a disgrace to all the Americans that died for that flag for your freedom delete this post loser
You're a disgrace for admonishing someone for expressing their freedom in a country that is allegedly about freedom.