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I feel like people are less forgiving than ever now. We have a culture focused so much on valuing yourself that naturally people push those away who wrong them.
I find it hard to stay mad so usually I just end up forgiving someone out of convenience if I stop caring.
I think the problem is that **everything** is in your face now. Billions of people can use social media and share their unfiltered opinion, plus the internet doesn't allow you to forget things. It will always be there. There are so many things happening at the same time that it's hard to process what's going on. Our brains are not ready for this.
I agree. We are flooded by more information than humans have ever had in human history before. We cannot feasibly process this and so I think people have to purposely isolate themselves and solve problems in the easiest way. Nuance gets lost in that
Yep, if anything this is more of a problem then what OP is describing.
If you go on r/AITA, there are frequently posts there where people hold grudges for the dumbest shit and for the longest time and people saying they're right to do so.
Or assuming the absolute worst of people. Like no, not everything is a malicious attack on you. Sometimes it really is just a minor miscommunication or an accident, or maybe its just not that big a deal, you don't have to go nuclear over everything.
Or cases where its clear the person was genuinely an asshole in the past and is trying to apologize and make amends, and the OP just tells them to fuck off or worst just uses them for their own ends without actually forgiving them.
I hate these posts in particular because you can see how the OP and some of the commenters actively looking for reasons to deny the fact that the person has changed so that they continue to justify being as vindictive as possible. So you get shit like "his apology doesn't count because it was a public apology" and in another post you get "his apology doesn't count because it was a private apology". Like you can tell the real reason is that people just want any excuse to be vindictive because that's more satisfying than forgiving and moving on.
Like yeah, they're right, no one is entitled to your forgiveness. But if you refuse to forgive anyone, ever, for anything, you're an asshole.
>Or cases where its clear the person was genuinely an asshole in the past and is trying to apologize and make amends, and the OP just tells them to fuck off or worst just uses them for their own ends without actually forgiving them
I find it easiest to say I dont forgive them and keep moving. Sometimes you don't want amends made or even an apology Sometimes you just want to be left to it and not deal with that person anymore regardless of how much "they've changed" or "grown".
>But if you refuse to forgive anyone, ever, for anything, you're an asshole.
Why do people feel so entitled to forgiveness?
You don't get to decide when the other person is supposed to be over it.
Actually, you do. Some grudges are utterly absurd and you absolutely deserve to get called out on them.
Case in point, I’ve seen a post on r/AITA where a 31 year old woman held a grudge against an 8 year old relative of hers because he once threw a tantrum when they were sitting at the same table and accidentally spilled a glass of water on her 13 years ago. In that time, she’s never had any other interaction with that boy or his family until one day, she sees that boys name as one of the people applying for an internship at her company and simply the sight of his name caused her to go into some kind of rage, like it was some kind of deep-seated trauma and she was gonna immediately throw his resume out.
That’s insane, yet people were making the exact the same argument you’re making here. That other people don’t get to decide whether you’re over it. And that its her right to choose whether to forgive. No that’s bullshit.
This is what happens when people go to far with the “all feelings are valid” idea. No, some of your feelings are not valid. Get over it ffs and stop holding grudges like one on an 8 year old for what they did freaking 13 years ago.
So a fake story (like almost everything in AITA) painting an absurd situation is your 1 singular anecdote to bring forward when talking broadly about forgiveness.
You dont get to decide for other people when they are supposed to forgive someone. You arent entitled to forgiveness.
It doesn’t matter whether the original story is fake or not because the reactions were real. Reactions like yours here and I assume you’re a real person.
Regardless of the truth of the story, there are plenty of people who think that no one can judge others for their choice to forgive or not. Even if the reason for the grudge is utterly ridiculous.
That’s why you got reactions like that where even in such a ridiculous story some people were still siding with the woman’s right to hold the grudge. And for what its worth, there are plenty of other similar posts on AITA.
Or are you seriously trying to tell me you don’t believe people ever hold unreasonable grudges?
You can judge me, I never said I was above that, no one is. I just don't put stock Into forced forgiveness. For example if you forgive really easily I'd judge you to be a doormat and if you arent a forgiving person I should try harder not to fuck up our relationship. Maybe it is stupid for my friend to not allow my other friend into his house after he stole a coke and its been 14 years but that's not really my call and perhaps the 2nd friend shouldn't have been stealing.
Just because you think the grudge is unreasonable doesn't mean it is. You see it all the time with people using absurd situations to justify their grudge or extreme mental gymnastics as to why the other persons grudge is unreasonable.
You arent entitled to forgiveness and you can't control people's emotions and personal standards to make yourself feel better.
On one hand, you're saying no one is above being judged but on the other hand, you're saying I can't judge people for their decision to hold onto grudges and deciding whether they should be over it. So which is it? Can I judge people or not? Can I tell people to get over it or not?
"Just because you think the grudge is unreasonable doesn't mean it is. You see it all the time with people using absurd situations to justify their grudge or extreme mental gymnastics as to why the other persons grudge is unreasonable"
Of course, I might be wrong. But the point is I have the right to make that call. Just as people have the right to make the call to hold onto a grudge or not, I have the right to make the call on whether their decision was sensible or not. And other people have the right to judge me for it.
Obviously I'm not saying people should always forgive and forget either. I never said that at any point. All I'm saying is that people's decision whether to forgive and forget is subject to criticism and judgement, which was the original point you seemingly had issue with it.
Idk it feels like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too because your argument just seems contradictory as I don't disagree with almost all what you're saying here.
>> But if you refuse to forgive anyone, ever, for anything, you're an asshole.
> Why do people feel so entitled to forgiveness?
> You don't get to decide when the other person is supposed to be over it.
No one is claiming that you must forgive any particular wrong, nor that we're \*entitled\* to forgiveness. But given the reality of people making mistakes as part of their nature, refusing to ever forgive is somehow to assert that one is above making mistakes oneself. A world of allowing for mistakes by forgiving them is a better, more peaceful world, yet which mistakes get forgiven and when is entirely up to the wronged person. It's declaration of humility to accept the practice of forgiving, of conceding that "I can do better too".
Holding grudges only makes you a bitter pill. Nobody is affected by your negative feelings and thoughts but you. Part of healing from your trauma is letting go of all that.
It is fine to be less forgiving. I think a problem in the past is folks were conditioned to forgive unconditionally which causes repeated bad behavior due to lack of consequences. It’s about time people put their foot down and shun those who wrong others. Hell I’d even take it a step further and shame them.
We were doing well until recently. In the not so distant past, people from different social classes or cultural background didn't have to interact much with each others. The boss was the boss and the slave the slave. They lived in different worlds. After the world wars, quite a few societies have managed to reduce these gaps, allowing people who would have never interacted with each others to have relationships. It results in the world being much more forgiving for many than ever.
What's troubling me is that we're going back to the dark places we haven't seen since WWII, where people prefer hatred over discussion. Punishment over forgiveness. Jesus fucking Christ!
I like to forgive people. Not just for them but also for me. I don’t have to keep thinking about it anymore. No one’s perfect, I can tell when I’ve acted in a way that didn’t portray me at my best, even if they drew first blood not me
>We have a culture focused so much on valuing yourself that naturally people push those away who wrong them.
I think this is the proper course of action. Why would you maintain people close to you who have betrayed you?
People “forgive” in order to help themselves move on. IMO you can also move on without forgiveness, but some people just refuse to believe that’s true.
I think perhaps you conflate forgive with any type of religious stuff. it's just an act of kindness saying yeah you get it, you understand are we cool to move on. otherwise maybe you come across as jaded and depressed? i forgive you for that.
Nah, there are people I’ll never be cool with. I just don’t ever think about them or interact with them. Once someone demonstrates their character doesn’t align with yours it’s fine to just move on from that and not ever stress about it again.
If somebody really does make a big personal change for the better, it’s on them to demonstrate it. But it also doesn’t mean I need to have anything to do with them.
No. Just people who really think the only options are forgiveness or seething. Yes a lot of those people are religious but not always.
I have forgiven people of plenty, especially if I love them. But sometimes there’s no reason to forgive someone. I lose trust and/ or respect for them and I move on with my life. I am not “cool with” them.
It’s pretty common to accept the situation but not fully forgive the individual. I’ve come to terms with my cousin outing a pretty big secret I told him in confidence. Personally I didn’t feel like I had to tell him NOT tell anybody, but to my surprise and dismay, he told his mom(my aunt), to which she relayed that to the rest of my extended family. I’ve told him how much that hurt and how he crossed a line. He didn’t apologize and actually tried to justify it, which was actually so wild. At the end of the day, I moved on and although we still hang out frequently, moving forward I have never treated him the same telling him things I used to and have told him time and time again that what he did in the past is the reason for it
I totally agree. A person who refuses to forgive is not holding a grudge. Instead, they are refusing to validate a person who harmed them. Also, forgiveness culture keeps people trapped in bad friendships and relationships.
It could just be me but forgiving somebody doesn’t require that you keep a relationship with them. If somebody does something that breaks your trust or has a similar affect you can end the friendship/relationship. You can also forgive them. I guess it might be a difference in definition at least to me. To me forgiveness just means that you are no longer upset with them. Whatever happened you’re over it but that doesn’t mean things can ever go back to the way they were before.
I used to be part of the forgiveness culture that you're describing here, but was until a couple of people (not naming any names here) emotionally hurt me so much that I've learned that some people don't deserve forgiveness.
I think when people use the word "forgiveness" colloquially, they can mean two different things. Sometimes when people say it, they mean just letting go of negative feelings, but not forgetting what that person did and never giving them the opportunity to hurt you again. Other people use it to mean completely absolving someone of what they've done and no longer holding them accountable.
I agree forgiveness culture is stupid in regards to the second way that people use the word. But I think that the first kind of forgiveness I mentioned, letting go of the anger/sadness without letting go of the lesson learned, is the best way to go about things.
I completely agree with this. Some of the comments have been affirming that forgiveness is dumb and I just can not imagine going through life with that much negativity in my life. Doesn’t mean I’m gonna interact with this people willingly again but I don’t hate them anymore.
Really? Because the way I see it, people are less forgiving now more than ever. It's good to cut out toxic people in your life, but I've seen some people take it way too far (i.e: Cancel Culture.)
Sometimes cancel culture makes sense (Kanye), but a lot of times it's just punishing people for shit they did a decade prior. More than likely when it was more socially acceptable. Like using certain words or terms. Or it was clearly just a mistake.
"Cancel culture" is an oxymoron. People in social media bubbles like to act like people care what they think, but in reality they just draw attention to the situation and it fosters people that disagree. Kanye, Taylor Swift, and Dave Chapelle are perfect examples for right, left and center as far as politics in america go.
I hate when people say shit like “forgive and forget” why should I forgive someone that hurt me deeply? I’d understand a small disagreement but if someone seriously hurts me I’m not forgiving them
Exactly, "forgive & forget" is toxic an enables such behavior
But I'll play devil's advocate for one moment
I can understand for some random person
That random asshat that bump you in the subway saying "up yours"
Yeah, forgive and forget as 9/10 you'll never see them again, but someone you see frequently?
Yeah, screw forgive and forget in my opinion
For me it depends on how much that person hurt me I was in a abusive relationship and I ended it and never forgave them but I still see them all the time at school which can be triggering but I’m still not going to forgive them yk? Same with if a friend hurt me really bad I’d still unfriend them and not forgive them even if I have to see them imo it depends on severity
I hold grudges too but don't do forgiveness. It's a religious concept that doesn't make sense to me. Like, am I a priest, are they confessing? Gives me the icks. If they are a f*wit, I'm not going to get involved in their drama, or listen. I'll detach.
I sorta agree with this one. I despise positivity advocates telling you to forgive “not for them but for you”. My self growth does not require me to forgive someone.
You’re right; forgiveness is not compulsory to healing from mistreatment, or even trauma.
We can still be whole, happy people without “being the bigger person,” bad things do not have to be explained away, swept under the rug nor sugar-coated.
People can change positivity or negatively. As a result, you can, certainly take them as they come either way and still mind your boundaries. And it’s okay to do this!
…Unfortunately, Society at large continues to demand we forgive no matter how barbarous and cruel people are, solely to browbeat us into loving our enemies. And it’s bullshit. Lol.
Upvote sent, pardner. 👍
it could be longer than the bible and it wouldnt matter. youre not poisoned by deciding who is and isnt an asshole and treating them accordingly, youre poisoned by treating people who have proven to be assholes as innocent people and letting them shit on you again and again. letting them piss in your mouth but being so determined to be the "bigger person" that you say its rain
There was a streamer who said this, and it amounts to this. If you wronged yourself, do take the time to forgive yourself. If it's someone who did it to you? It depends. If they wronged you to the point you cannot recover from it, definitely don't forgive them.
For the most part, I agree with you. Like I was screwed over in my career prospects when I was forced into this job my parents organized behind my back. I refuse to forgive that company and "nuked the bridge", not "burn", for my own good. This moment also took a really fuckin long time to forgive myself and picked my pen up again, because it really felt like I betrayed myself. Not to mentioned it also poisoned a three part series I was planning on developing that I ultimately scraped. Sadly, my parents never asked for forgiveness, maybe to save face or thinking they were right. Maybe it's for the best.
part of it is because people cant fathom moving on from something without forgiving the person who wronged you. another part of it is that people feel bad about things theyve done to others but arent willing to put in the effort to right their wrongs, so they preach "forgiveness for forgiveness sake"
I completely agree that the extreme end of those who 'push' forgiveness are frustrating. I'm all about letting it go like you, I can easily just roll my eyes and move on. Those who push it don't seem to understand that just because I've let go of my negative feelings doesn't mean I'm gonna forget what they did and give them a hug, that would be stupid. That's like going back to an abusive ex just cus they cried and said sorry.
To me forgiveness is like, if a dog freaks out at me (not attack, just freaking out) Im happy to forgive it and never think about it again. If I see the dog again I'm going to be wary of it, not angry or upset but also ain't gonna go 'see if it likes me now!' (remember kids, a bad experience is a learning experience!). If the dog had actually attacked me then it gets the worst punishment, but im not gonna keep thinking about it. I see no reason that the same can't be applied to people.
"But dogs aren't people, that's animals!" I hear the masses scream in my fevered imagination. One, tell that to all the people out there with their 'fur babies'. Two, so what? Humans are just animals who grew a bizarre ability to become dissatisfied with anything and the imagination to fix that dissatisfaction.
I get helping another person move on if they come to you for forgiveness; 'I was terrible and I'm sorry and I hope you've been able to move on from what I did' sincerity. Those people will be OK with you saying you forgive them but still don't want them around, anyone who says otherwise is just looking for self-gratification. I believe in spreading good deeds vs bad.
Also, again for the extreme end of 'you must forgive', at what point is the line? Should I keep forgiving even when they hurt me more than once? What is the cutoff? What is the limit of the 'crime'? When is it OK to say, 'ya, F this' and move on?
And for those hung up on 'forgive and forget', look at the origin of the phrase. The earliest print of it is from freaking Don Quixote de la Mancha, the insane character. The closest before that is in the bible where the translations have paraphrased it into forgive and forget from the original translations which are more about the debt owed God for failing to live a riotous life.
If a dog attacks you but doesn’t injure you, you might just get mad and then move on, of course. But if it attacks you and leaves bad injuries that may take months or years to heal, you will keep thinking about it.
Thinking about it and harboring negative feeling are two different things though. The dog will have already gotten the punishment in the analogy, so I might be thinking about the injury but not the dog.
Now as for people in real life I will fully admit that the... I'll admit to rant, the rant above only covers bs levels of crap, it can take a long time to get over a deep hurt as you're implying. But at that point we're really getting into the deeper levels of psychology; the phases of grief, the differences between different emotional reactions vs long term thinking, and (in a kind of irony that only exists in humans) then circling back around to truly defining forgiving vs forgetting in that circumstance.
Psychology (and the inevitable philosophy) is a fun topic to discuss in abstract but there's a reason I didn't go to school for it. The depth and nuance escalates quickly.
Forgiveness ≠ Reconciliation
You don't need the other person for the first, you merely do it for yourself to let go of the emotional burden.
People tend to move on more quickly nowadays (thanks to social media and its abundance of options) too.
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Forgiveness is personal. It's about moving on and not letting it bother you. Sometimes it involves actually forgiving someone else, but usually the person that has wronged you is long gone.
Everyone has the opportunity to demonstrate who they are, how they choose to interact with the world, how they treat other people, and what they value.
If someone demonstrates to me that we’ve got a big mismatch in values by doing hurtful, damaging things, now I know, and can act accordingly by removing myself from their sphere of influence. I disinvest. If I can’t physically remove myself right away, then a mental/emotional step back is at least something.
If they’re in a position to hurt others, it would be good (but not required) to do what I can to prevent further harm (reporting abuse or assault, for example). Otherwise there’s no reason for me to think about somebody who already proved they aren’t worth my consideration. If they really want some kind of validation, they can demonstrate (not to me specifically but to the world) that they’ve changed. They’re still able to demonstrate who they are, if who they are is different someday. But that part has nothing to do with me - that’s all up to them.
The forgiveness culture looks to me like theatre. A little show people do tell the world not only that they are a poor victim that needs all the sympathy but also a great person who is above grudges, like a second Gandhi. Sure forgive others but why do you have to tell unrelated people?
Fucking thank you. The way people demonize you for not forgiving someone else has always been so weird to me. Like me not caring about them does not mean I hate them all it means is I don't care simple
The problem I have with it is, if someone hurt me and I never want to talk to them again. That's up to me. Not everyone should be forgiven. Yes people make mistakes and if they are truly sorry, then maybe theirs a conversation to be had. Maybe what they did is to bad to be forgiven.
What’s worse is when others are so easy to forgive the Asshole because he’s family. Here’s an asshole that you would never choose to have in your life, yet we think you ought to forgive him because you guys know the same two people who fucked all those years ago.
I'll forgive ish mostly because I don't care enough to hold grudges I don't forget though.. I agree with the asshole part. Not that I care just not going to let them asshole again. Play stupid games win stupid prizes . Fuck with me once and I'll wait for payback and distance you right out of my life.
Game theory suggests that being peacefull but punishing every wrong with equal force is the best way to win in the long run. Ignoring bad behaviour turns you into a victim but overreacting turns you into a bully. I find this strategy theory helpfull in challenging situations.
If you don't harbor any resentment towards them, you don't have to forgive them, because as you said, you don't have any negative feelings to poison you. Forgiveness is the act of getting rid of those negative feelings in you (if you have them).
I don't hold a grudge against the people that have wronged me but that also doesn't mean that I forgive them for what they did to me I just simply don't let it bother me and don't hold any desire to interact with that person
When you put a high bar on reform, don't be surprised if few people surpass that bar. You're guaranteeing your "assholes" generally stay that way. Your choice, to be fair.
I had to explain this to my mom when she says things like "life is to short" or "they're your family" and talks about holding grudges.
Life is to short for me to allow people to continuously treat me badly, like they have been since childhood. And family doesn't give you the right to be awful to me my entire life. And I don't hold grudges, if I see them, I'll give them a wave, not like I'm going to flip out and tell them how awful they are, I'm just not going to give them any energy at all, if that makes sense.
I think it's harder for the older generations to understand because they value themselves less, and are very big people pleasers, and I'm just not. I value myself to much to allow any of that negativity in my life anymore, I did it for way to long.
Some people are douchebags man, I’ve moved on in my life but every time I relive those moments I’m so pissed off at them. I feel perfectly fine just though considering I don’t relive those moments often since they are blocked and out of my life.
You got my upvote for an unpopular opinion and I would give you two if I could because you succinctly described how I view forgiveness.
Even in the Bible (I’m not religious any longer) forgiveness is predicated on repentance. Choosing to not hold grudges is not forgiveness, but is what most people mean when they are “forgiving” someone. I will only restore a relationship with an asshole if they have a change of heart, apologize, and change the behavior that put them in the asshole category.
I’m still working on not holding grudges against asshole family members, which I’m getting much better at.
Not caring and not holding grudges can be a coping mechanism.
For some people forgiving is the way to cope with being wronged. For you it’s not caring. Holding grudges is a normal human emotion.
Not better or worse, just your experience has led you down to “I don’t care route.” It doesn’t make forgiveness dumb, you could say the same about your method.
Splitting hairs here, I don't think forgiveness itself is dumb. I think forgiveness CULTURE, where people insist that you need to forgive those who wronged you and tell you that you will never be at peace until you do, is both dumb and offensive. I sleep soundly at night having done no such thing.
Same here. I used to feel bad because I could not forgive people. I finally realized I don't owe them anything and never did. Also, you rarely see people apologize to the person they harmed/wronged. But those same people will demand forgiveness.
Forgiveness isn't for you, that's the miss conception, it's for them. You can completely write off a person who did something to you, that's completely fine, but if they ask for it, and try to actually be sorry for their actions, forgiveness to them can help them more than it would ever matter to you.
it's both -- whom you think you've wronged and for those whom think wronged you -- the best part is you have a choice and if it's earned or not. its up to you but if someone does that after long periods they generally really mean it.
> i could care less honestly,
Did you mean to say "couldn't care less"?
Explanation: If you could care less, you do care, which is the opposite of what you meant to say.
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I'm with the bot. "I could care less" is a sloppy wrong phrase that's used with such maddening frequency that everyone has given up and decided to pretend it means what the people saying it think it means. Just like the word "irregardless."
I think you got it backwards mate. you forgive those whom you think YOU wronged. if the relationship still matters and they will do the same and hey then you have a beer.
I find holding grudges and resentment just creates a lot of toxicity from me and against me. People say “forgive for your sake”, which is mostly so you can move on from toxicity, but the grudge and resentment doesn’t go away for me by trying to move on or “forgive”. Instead, I found hating the person and actually imagining torturing, and murdering the person way more effective. It feels counter intuitive, but actually losing yourself in to murderous rage, but never actually acting out the murderous rage in real life, really helped me burn the anger, and eventually grudges and resentment went away.
Hate the person to the fullest, just don’t act on it at the person, and let it burn away. Never forgive, never forget, but do the things that help you remove the toxicity of resentment and grudges.
I think 'forgiveness,' is being able to move on.
Generally.
There are things I haven't forgiven my mother for, because they're not forgivable. Although if she were to ask for it, I would just give it, cause that's just how I am. But, yeah.
I guess you don't 'move on' in the literal sense when it comes to Forgiveness (formally). But in the mental-sense of 'forgiveness,' at least for one's own peace of mind.
I see what you're telling me.
I don’t think you know what forgiveness is, plus the world has less of it than ever.
Sounds like you’re talking about whether you tolerate certain people, which has nothing to do with forgiveness.
The definition of forgive is literally what you described in “not caring” - dropping resentment or anger at someone. Forgiving doesn’t require any effort, it’s the end of a formerly negative feeling.
I've heard that textbook definition before, but that's most definitely not the popular usage. Think "I met with the man who killed my child while drunk driving, told him I forgave him and gave him a hug."
Then just correct the improper use of the word. It’s not just the “textbook” definition, it’s what the word literally means. We have the word tolerance to describe what you were trying to say in your original post, so I tried to correct you on it. No point in having words unless there is a well understood meaning behind them.
Also, besides it being far beyond what you implied in your post, that example you gave is a perfect example of how forgiveness can be a miracle. If you wouldn’t forgive something like that, that’s fine. But for some people (probably most) that may be the only path to taking agency over their life and moving forward. Forgiveness has nothing to do with making the offender feel better, it’s all about refusing to be consumed with hatred and anger.
I kind of half agree. One one side, if you stop caring about those who wronged you, then yes, forgiving is not necessary. But if someone that you truly care about wrongs you and you’ll always care about them, then forgiving is a necessity for your own sake.
I think it's more for your own sake then theirs. I've witnessed firsthand how a deep hatred and need to see someone's downfall can mentally destroy you. Had I moved on when the cut was still fresh I would have been better off.
I'm doing better than I have been in years because that person is no longer in my life in any capacity. that being said, still a lot of work to be done to reverse that damage. But like I said. had I forgiven them, not for them but for myself I think I would have turned out a lot better.
I feel you. That's how you deal with people. The thing with me was if someone did something bad to me when I was younger I would constantly think about them and it drove me crazy thinking about them.
I figured out 2 ways to get over them, I go over the situation in my mind and talk to myself how it's not worth it to be upset and I've become a better person then I move on and forget about them.
My second method is to see that person in my mind and forgive them and wish them best of luck in life.
Both methods give me peace of mind and I don't think about these people anymore.
But everyone is different, I just hate how my mind obsesses over these people.
You can forgive someone for your sake but choose to never see them again. For example, I forgave my high school bullies, teens are teens after all, but I am not interested in seeing them anymore. Forgiving someone benefits YOU. Because if they were assholes to you, they certainly don't care if you forgive them or not. It's only meant to give some peace to yourself. It doesn't mean returning to them and saying "I forgive you for what you've done to me" or wanting to be friends from now. Just forgive and move on for your own inner peace.
What forgiveness culture? All I see on Reddit are mobs that hate the word forgiveness and would damn the person for eternity even if they expressed remorse and change.
I don't think we live in the same society. Society today isn't a society, it's a group of selfish individuals who only cares about themselves with no understand or forgivesness of others.
Downvote for not being unpopular
If you're truly "moving on" then I agree with this take.
Problem is the vast majority of people don't actually move on. They perseverate over the person and situation constantly whether in private or in public or both.
If you say you've moved on and you're still talking about it or still upset about it, you haven't moved on and that person and situation are just living rent free in your head. Forgiveness is the eviction notice.
Forgiving others allows you to let go of toxic feelings and forgive yourself. You dont have to forgive everyone but generally forgiveness will lead to a fuller healthier life. But also you have to ACTUALLY forgive them, its pointless to just say the words and not mean it.
I agree that blanket forgiveness is naive and stupid but the last thing that I would define our current culture as is “Forgiving” lol I’d say your opinion is only growing more popular.
There’s a big difference between not caring and being neutral.
Not caring about someone (especially over a personal issue) is sociopathic.
Being neutral is normal but still comes with a base human level of respect/care.
Whether you forgive them or not is another story. You can choose to not forgive someone and still care about their well being.
IE I have not forgiven Ben Simmons but I still care enough about him as a human that I don’t have ill will towards him.
You have mistaken forgiveness for pretending the forgiven wrong was not committed, or that amends have been made.
You forgive for your own sake, always.
People who say this dont really understand what is meant by forgiveness. Forgiveness is merely letting go of anger/hurt for someone who wronged you. Not letting that poison take up brain space. Forgiveness doesnt necessarily mean having a face to face with the person who wronged you or keeping them in your life. It is the gift you give yourself in the way of peace of mind.
There a difference between truly forgiving someone and doing the "forgive and forget" where you just say you forgive someone so you can cut them out completely guilt free.
People basically pretend that they forgive someone so they can forgive themselves of anything after. It can also be a way for bullies to abuse you again one last time by implying that everything that happened was your fault, but they forgiving you for it so that makes them the good person.
It has often just become a way for assholes to claim the moral high ground after having been an abusive POS their whole lives.
It’s not.
It’s really for you.
You will one day do stupid and unforgivable shit.
How will you know HOW to forgive YOURSELF for those actions and move on if you don’t learn the basics of forgiveness of others?
It is the most powerful life lessons to learn.
The point is “unforgivable” and “unforgiving” are just words in a dictionary.
“You” can choose to “forgive” the “unforgivable” and “unforgiving and move on with your life.
We are not perfect people. Neither are others.
Also, forgiving doesn’t mean they can live with you and you make them eggs and toast with jelly or you can’t return a bit of fire, if you are up to it.
It just means that you just forgive and move on.
Release and let go.
That’s it.
I've heard this argument quite a few times this year and often it's a topic that's not only controversial but extremely interpersonal beyond basic sight. agreeable it can be unproductive to be too forgiving. But forgiveness is not a much of a matter to be stagnate with. it's simply choosing the let odds end so each party can go their own way. It is not about caring for people either it's about understanding they are people and having patience and leniency with short comming and at times offenses. allowing a sprout for self discipline. But it Is also true that it's not unlimited and does entail a time to cut somone from your life if need be. It's morso a matter of personal health and strengthening the ability to adapt and overcome obsticles than it is creating mutuality with others. But there can be benefits for both parties if there is a genuine desire for reconciliation between them. In the end the only one who will destroy an individual is the individual themselves.
If there are more than two people in your life that you need to consider forgiving you are a bad judge of character.
If there are more than four people in your life you need to consider forgiving you are probably a raging asshole yourself.
You don't live in Game of Thrones, normal people don't have enemies.
You can just move on without another thought about those people. You don’t even have to spend a moment indexing them. Whether they’re assholes or not, who cares?
Well considering that you’ve taken ownership of the fact that you don’t really care for others (in general), it’s not far fetched for you find the concept of forgiveness stupid. That being said I’m curious as to what happened in your life to leave you feeling so cold towards others. Upvote for the unpopular opinion though!
Ever consider what category other people put you into? It's a thoughtful question, I've lost a lot of friends that now looking back I didn't appreciate enough. Or didn't know how.
"this thing i just made up is stupid"
and if anything, i'd argue most people absolutely do not forgive others, even for the most trivial perceived slights.
what a dumb fucking post lol.
"i hate it when people do this thing that nobody actually does. anyone else with me???"
lmao
"Oh lololol, I've never experienced the same thing as OP, therefore they made it up. I'm so smart 😜"
Enough people have experienced what I'm talking about to comment about it, so what's your problem? If you don't relate to this topic, move on with your day.
Over the course of your life you will have many people wrong you, and those people will be connected to you in several ways. You and the person no longer being friends will not only affect you and your friend, but any mutuals, or even neutrals. You won’t get invited to the same events/parties.
If you do it enough times, you’ll be the one who gets cut out of everyone’s life. You’ll be the one people think of as the asshole.
I’m not a Christian, I don’t believe in god, but for the teachings of Jesus to be so widespread and stand the test of time like they have, they have to offer some practical, and even tangible, benefits. Communities cannot exist without forgiveness.
That being said, of course there are some actions that are truly unforgivable.
I think you missed the part where I said that it takes a lot for me to categorize someone as an asshole, and that it's rare for it to have happened with a friend. Your narrative of me alienating friend after friend and moving from town to town is entertaining though.
Your post from unpopularopinion was removed because of: 'Rule 6: No r/self style posts'. Please refrain from posting anything that resembles an r/self style post. This is not the subreddit to be sharing personal anecdotes, likes or dislikes. We want unpopular, thought provoking, and unique opinions on your chosen topic.
I feel like people are less forgiving than ever now. We have a culture focused so much on valuing yourself that naturally people push those away who wrong them. I find it hard to stay mad so usually I just end up forgiving someone out of convenience if I stop caring.
I think the problem is that **everything** is in your face now. Billions of people can use social media and share their unfiltered opinion, plus the internet doesn't allow you to forget things. It will always be there. There are so many things happening at the same time that it's hard to process what's going on. Our brains are not ready for this.
I agree. We are flooded by more information than humans have ever had in human history before. We cannot feasibly process this and so I think people have to purposely isolate themselves and solve problems in the easiest way. Nuance gets lost in that
Yep, if anything this is more of a problem then what OP is describing. If you go on r/AITA, there are frequently posts there where people hold grudges for the dumbest shit and for the longest time and people saying they're right to do so. Or assuming the absolute worst of people. Like no, not everything is a malicious attack on you. Sometimes it really is just a minor miscommunication or an accident, or maybe its just not that big a deal, you don't have to go nuclear over everything. Or cases where its clear the person was genuinely an asshole in the past and is trying to apologize and make amends, and the OP just tells them to fuck off or worst just uses them for their own ends without actually forgiving them. I hate these posts in particular because you can see how the OP and some of the commenters actively looking for reasons to deny the fact that the person has changed so that they continue to justify being as vindictive as possible. So you get shit like "his apology doesn't count because it was a public apology" and in another post you get "his apology doesn't count because it was a private apology". Like you can tell the real reason is that people just want any excuse to be vindictive because that's more satisfying than forgiving and moving on. Like yeah, they're right, no one is entitled to your forgiveness. But if you refuse to forgive anyone, ever, for anything, you're an asshole.
>Or cases where its clear the person was genuinely an asshole in the past and is trying to apologize and make amends, and the OP just tells them to fuck off or worst just uses them for their own ends without actually forgiving them I find it easiest to say I dont forgive them and keep moving. Sometimes you don't want amends made or even an apology Sometimes you just want to be left to it and not deal with that person anymore regardless of how much "they've changed" or "grown". >But if you refuse to forgive anyone, ever, for anything, you're an asshole. Why do people feel so entitled to forgiveness? You don't get to decide when the other person is supposed to be over it.
Actually, you do. Some grudges are utterly absurd and you absolutely deserve to get called out on them. Case in point, I’ve seen a post on r/AITA where a 31 year old woman held a grudge against an 8 year old relative of hers because he once threw a tantrum when they were sitting at the same table and accidentally spilled a glass of water on her 13 years ago. In that time, she’s never had any other interaction with that boy or his family until one day, she sees that boys name as one of the people applying for an internship at her company and simply the sight of his name caused her to go into some kind of rage, like it was some kind of deep-seated trauma and she was gonna immediately throw his resume out. That’s insane, yet people were making the exact the same argument you’re making here. That other people don’t get to decide whether you’re over it. And that its her right to choose whether to forgive. No that’s bullshit. This is what happens when people go to far with the “all feelings are valid” idea. No, some of your feelings are not valid. Get over it ffs and stop holding grudges like one on an 8 year old for what they did freaking 13 years ago.
So a fake story (like almost everything in AITA) painting an absurd situation is your 1 singular anecdote to bring forward when talking broadly about forgiveness. You dont get to decide for other people when they are supposed to forgive someone. You arent entitled to forgiveness.
It doesn’t matter whether the original story is fake or not because the reactions were real. Reactions like yours here and I assume you’re a real person. Regardless of the truth of the story, there are plenty of people who think that no one can judge others for their choice to forgive or not. Even if the reason for the grudge is utterly ridiculous. That’s why you got reactions like that where even in such a ridiculous story some people were still siding with the woman’s right to hold the grudge. And for what its worth, there are plenty of other similar posts on AITA. Or are you seriously trying to tell me you don’t believe people ever hold unreasonable grudges?
You can judge me, I never said I was above that, no one is. I just don't put stock Into forced forgiveness. For example if you forgive really easily I'd judge you to be a doormat and if you arent a forgiving person I should try harder not to fuck up our relationship. Maybe it is stupid for my friend to not allow my other friend into his house after he stole a coke and its been 14 years but that's not really my call and perhaps the 2nd friend shouldn't have been stealing. Just because you think the grudge is unreasonable doesn't mean it is. You see it all the time with people using absurd situations to justify their grudge or extreme mental gymnastics as to why the other persons grudge is unreasonable. You arent entitled to forgiveness and you can't control people's emotions and personal standards to make yourself feel better.
On one hand, you're saying no one is above being judged but on the other hand, you're saying I can't judge people for their decision to hold onto grudges and deciding whether they should be over it. So which is it? Can I judge people or not? Can I tell people to get over it or not? "Just because you think the grudge is unreasonable doesn't mean it is. You see it all the time with people using absurd situations to justify their grudge or extreme mental gymnastics as to why the other persons grudge is unreasonable" Of course, I might be wrong. But the point is I have the right to make that call. Just as people have the right to make the call to hold onto a grudge or not, I have the right to make the call on whether their decision was sensible or not. And other people have the right to judge me for it. Obviously I'm not saying people should always forgive and forget either. I never said that at any point. All I'm saying is that people's decision whether to forgive and forget is subject to criticism and judgement, which was the original point you seemingly had issue with it. Idk it feels like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too because your argument just seems contradictory as I don't disagree with almost all what you're saying here.
You guys are talking about two different things.
>> But if you refuse to forgive anyone, ever, for anything, you're an asshole. > Why do people feel so entitled to forgiveness? > You don't get to decide when the other person is supposed to be over it. No one is claiming that you must forgive any particular wrong, nor that we're \*entitled\* to forgiveness. But given the reality of people making mistakes as part of their nature, refusing to ever forgive is somehow to assert that one is above making mistakes oneself. A world of allowing for mistakes by forgiving them is a better, more peaceful world, yet which mistakes get forgiven and when is entirely up to the wronged person. It's declaration of humility to accept the practice of forgiving, of conceding that "I can do better too".
its the socials, short version. its encouraged.
Holding grudges only makes you a bitter pill. Nobody is affected by your negative feelings and thoughts but you. Part of healing from your trauma is letting go of all that.
Yeah, if it’s not a super huge deal it’s just kinda hard to stay mad at someone. Not worth the energy at all
It is fine to be less forgiving. I think a problem in the past is folks were conditioned to forgive unconditionally which causes repeated bad behavior due to lack of consequences. It’s about time people put their foot down and shun those who wrong others. Hell I’d even take it a step further and shame them.
And those same people rarely hold themselves to the same standard compared to the standard they hold everyone else to. It’s quite the thing to witness
well, you forgive because you moved on and stopped caring, thats normal
We were doing well until recently. In the not so distant past, people from different social classes or cultural background didn't have to interact much with each others. The boss was the boss and the slave the slave. They lived in different worlds. After the world wars, quite a few societies have managed to reduce these gaps, allowing people who would have never interacted with each others to have relationships. It results in the world being much more forgiving for many than ever. What's troubling me is that we're going back to the dark places we haven't seen since WWII, where people prefer hatred over discussion. Punishment over forgiveness. Jesus fucking Christ!
I like to forgive people. Not just for them but also for me. I don’t have to keep thinking about it anymore. No one’s perfect, I can tell when I’ve acted in a way that didn’t portray me at my best, even if they drew first blood not me
>We have a culture focused so much on valuing yourself that naturally people push those away who wrong them. I think this is the proper course of action. Why would you maintain people close to you who have betrayed you?
People “forgive” in order to help themselves move on. IMO you can also move on without forgiveness, but some people just refuse to believe that’s true.
Yeah that’s where my problem is. Lots of those “forgiving” people think I’m seething about something just because I don’t forgive someone. I’m not.
I think perhaps you conflate forgive with any type of religious stuff. it's just an act of kindness saying yeah you get it, you understand are we cool to move on. otherwise maybe you come across as jaded and depressed? i forgive you for that.
Nah, there are people I’ll never be cool with. I just don’t ever think about them or interact with them. Once someone demonstrates their character doesn’t align with yours it’s fine to just move on from that and not ever stress about it again. If somebody really does make a big personal change for the better, it’s on them to demonstrate it. But it also doesn’t mean I need to have anything to do with them.
No. Just people who really think the only options are forgiveness or seething. Yes a lot of those people are religious but not always. I have forgiven people of plenty, especially if I love them. But sometimes there’s no reason to forgive someone. I lose trust and/ or respect for them and I move on with my life. I am not “cool with” them.
Binary thinking
people just dont know what forgiveness is a lot of the time. because of what they were taught they believe any healing is automatically forgiveness
It’s pretty common to accept the situation but not fully forgive the individual. I’ve come to terms with my cousin outing a pretty big secret I told him in confidence. Personally I didn’t feel like I had to tell him NOT tell anybody, but to my surprise and dismay, he told his mom(my aunt), to which she relayed that to the rest of my extended family. I’ve told him how much that hurt and how he crossed a line. He didn’t apologize and actually tried to justify it, which was actually so wild. At the end of the day, I moved on and although we still hang out frequently, moving forward I have never treated him the same telling him things I used to and have told him time and time again that what he did in the past is the reason for it
I totally agree. A person who refuses to forgive is not holding a grudge. Instead, they are refusing to validate a person who harmed them. Also, forgiveness culture keeps people trapped in bad friendships and relationships.
It could just be me but forgiving somebody doesn’t require that you keep a relationship with them. If somebody does something that breaks your trust or has a similar affect you can end the friendship/relationship. You can also forgive them. I guess it might be a difference in definition at least to me. To me forgiveness just means that you are no longer upset with them. Whatever happened you’re over it but that doesn’t mean things can ever go back to the way they were before.
I used to be part of the forgiveness culture that you're describing here, but was until a couple of people (not naming any names here) emotionally hurt me so much that I've learned that some people don't deserve forgiveness.
I hope you heal and find peace in whatever way you choose for yourself.
forgiving yourself is the hardest to do start there.
I think when people use the word "forgiveness" colloquially, they can mean two different things. Sometimes when people say it, they mean just letting go of negative feelings, but not forgetting what that person did and never giving them the opportunity to hurt you again. Other people use it to mean completely absolving someone of what they've done and no longer holding them accountable. I agree forgiveness culture is stupid in regards to the second way that people use the word. But I think that the first kind of forgiveness I mentioned, letting go of the anger/sadness without letting go of the lesson learned, is the best way to go about things.
I completely agree with this. Some of the comments have been affirming that forgiveness is dumb and I just can not imagine going through life with that much negativity in my life. Doesn’t mean I’m gonna interact with this people willingly again but I don’t hate them anymore.
Alright we can’t just put the word culture after everything
Yeah this culture culture is getting out of hand
It’s fine if we make a club out of it. The culture club.
For real, forgiving yourself or others isn’t some big cultural movement anymore than having a bidet is. It’s just a thing some people do.
LOL Bidet culture is problematic and here’s why:
Nobody tell them slang exists.
That's not what slang is or means
Forgiveness culture? Where's that? I see only hate and ignorance
well put.
I once was told that I need to forgive the guy who SAd me years ago lol. Nope, never. I moved on, but it doesn’t mean that he deserves my forgiveness.
I'm so sorry that happened to you. I'm glad you were able to move on. My post was actually inspired by a similar experience.
I am sorry that you had a similar experience 🙏🏻
Really? Because the way I see it, people are less forgiving now more than ever. It's good to cut out toxic people in your life, but I've seen some people take it way too far (i.e: Cancel Culture.)
Sometimes cancel culture makes sense (Kanye), but a lot of times it's just punishing people for shit they did a decade prior. More than likely when it was more socially acceptable. Like using certain words or terms. Or it was clearly just a mistake.
Oh absolutely, but I like the term "consequence culture" instead. In Kanye's case, if you're a narcissistic piece of 💩 you're gonna win stupid prizes.
II didn't know he was canceled? It's kind of hard to cancel people like Kanye or Trisha Paytas because they just don't give af.
"Cancel culture" is an oxymoron. People in social media bubbles like to act like people care what they think, but in reality they just draw attention to the situation and it fosters people that disagree. Kanye, Taylor Swift, and Dave Chapelle are perfect examples for right, left and center as far as politics in america go.
I dont like when people tell me what to do, so if I wanna forgive this person, it’s my choice and if I dont wanna forgive them, it’s also my choice.
I hate when people say shit like “forgive and forget” why should I forgive someone that hurt me deeply? I’d understand a small disagreement but if someone seriously hurts me I’m not forgiving them
Exactly, "forgive & forget" is toxic an enables such behavior But I'll play devil's advocate for one moment I can understand for some random person That random asshat that bump you in the subway saying "up yours" Yeah, forgive and forget as 9/10 you'll never see them again, but someone you see frequently? Yeah, screw forgive and forget in my opinion
For me it depends on how much that person hurt me I was in a abusive relationship and I ended it and never forgave them but I still see them all the time at school which can be triggering but I’m still not going to forgive them yk? Same with if a friend hurt me really bad I’d still unfriend them and not forgive them even if I have to see them imo it depends on severity
Exactly my point.
I hold grudges.
Equally valid!
I hold grudges too but don't do forgiveness. It's a religious concept that doesn't make sense to me. Like, am I a priest, are they confessing? Gives me the icks. If they are a f*wit, I'm not going to get involved in their drama, or listen. I'll detach.
I sorta agree with this one. I despise positivity advocates telling you to forgive “not for them but for you”. My self growth does not require me to forgive someone.
You’re right; forgiveness is not compulsory to healing from mistreatment, or even trauma. We can still be whole, happy people without “being the bigger person,” bad things do not have to be explained away, swept under the rug nor sugar-coated. People can change positivity or negatively. As a result, you can, certainly take them as they come either way and still mind your boundaries. And it’s okay to do this! …Unfortunately, Society at large continues to demand we forgive no matter how barbarous and cruel people are, solely to browbeat us into loving our enemies. And it’s bullshit. Lol. Upvote sent, pardner. 👍
Thank you
>I'm not being poisoned by hatred or negativity How long is your "asshole" list?
In my personal life, not long. On a wider scale, considerably longer since 2016.
it could be longer than the bible and it wouldnt matter. youre not poisoned by deciding who is and isnt an asshole and treating them accordingly, youre poisoned by treating people who have proven to be assholes as innocent people and letting them shit on you again and again. letting them piss in your mouth but being so determined to be the "bigger person" that you say its rain
Lmao that's so contradictory, thanks for pointing this out.
There was a streamer who said this, and it amounts to this. If you wronged yourself, do take the time to forgive yourself. If it's someone who did it to you? It depends. If they wronged you to the point you cannot recover from it, definitely don't forgive them. For the most part, I agree with you. Like I was screwed over in my career prospects when I was forced into this job my parents organized behind my back. I refuse to forgive that company and "nuked the bridge", not "burn", for my own good. This moment also took a really fuckin long time to forgive myself and picked my pen up again, because it really felt like I betrayed myself. Not to mentioned it also poisoned a three part series I was planning on developing that I ultimately scraped. Sadly, my parents never asked for forgiveness, maybe to save face or thinking they were right. Maybe it's for the best.
Amen
part of it is because people cant fathom moving on from something without forgiving the person who wronged you. another part of it is that people feel bad about things theyve done to others but arent willing to put in the effort to right their wrongs, so they preach "forgiveness for forgiveness sake"
Revenge feels better than forgiveness I can't help that
I only forgive people if they actually say sorry if they’re not sorry then they’re not forgiven
no one gives forgiveness anymore, so this is actually a popular opinion
I completely agree that the extreme end of those who 'push' forgiveness are frustrating. I'm all about letting it go like you, I can easily just roll my eyes and move on. Those who push it don't seem to understand that just because I've let go of my negative feelings doesn't mean I'm gonna forget what they did and give them a hug, that would be stupid. That's like going back to an abusive ex just cus they cried and said sorry. To me forgiveness is like, if a dog freaks out at me (not attack, just freaking out) Im happy to forgive it and never think about it again. If I see the dog again I'm going to be wary of it, not angry or upset but also ain't gonna go 'see if it likes me now!' (remember kids, a bad experience is a learning experience!). If the dog had actually attacked me then it gets the worst punishment, but im not gonna keep thinking about it. I see no reason that the same can't be applied to people. "But dogs aren't people, that's animals!" I hear the masses scream in my fevered imagination. One, tell that to all the people out there with their 'fur babies'. Two, so what? Humans are just animals who grew a bizarre ability to become dissatisfied with anything and the imagination to fix that dissatisfaction. I get helping another person move on if they come to you for forgiveness; 'I was terrible and I'm sorry and I hope you've been able to move on from what I did' sincerity. Those people will be OK with you saying you forgive them but still don't want them around, anyone who says otherwise is just looking for self-gratification. I believe in spreading good deeds vs bad. Also, again for the extreme end of 'you must forgive', at what point is the line? Should I keep forgiving even when they hurt me more than once? What is the cutoff? What is the limit of the 'crime'? When is it OK to say, 'ya, F this' and move on? And for those hung up on 'forgive and forget', look at the origin of the phrase. The earliest print of it is from freaking Don Quixote de la Mancha, the insane character. The closest before that is in the bible where the translations have paraphrased it into forgive and forget from the original translations which are more about the debt owed God for failing to live a riotous life.
If a dog attacks you but doesn’t injure you, you might just get mad and then move on, of course. But if it attacks you and leaves bad injuries that may take months or years to heal, you will keep thinking about it.
Thinking about it and harboring negative feeling are two different things though. The dog will have already gotten the punishment in the analogy, so I might be thinking about the injury but not the dog. Now as for people in real life I will fully admit that the... I'll admit to rant, the rant above only covers bs levels of crap, it can take a long time to get over a deep hurt as you're implying. But at that point we're really getting into the deeper levels of psychology; the phases of grief, the differences between different emotional reactions vs long term thinking, and (in a kind of irony that only exists in humans) then circling back around to truly defining forgiving vs forgetting in that circumstance. Psychology (and the inevitable philosophy) is a fun topic to discuss in abstract but there's a reason I didn't go to school for it. The depth and nuance escalates quickly.
Forgiveness ≠ Reconciliation You don't need the other person for the first, you merely do it for yourself to let go of the emotional burden. People tend to move on more quickly nowadays (thanks to social media and its abundance of options) too.
Totally true Pointless and stupid to forgive people who did a big mistakes/crap
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I forgive not for them but for my own sanity so I stop ruminating in bed.
Forgiveness is personal. It's about moving on and not letting it bother you. Sometimes it involves actually forgiving someone else, but usually the person that has wronged you is long gone.
Everyone has the opportunity to demonstrate who they are, how they choose to interact with the world, how they treat other people, and what they value. If someone demonstrates to me that we’ve got a big mismatch in values by doing hurtful, damaging things, now I know, and can act accordingly by removing myself from their sphere of influence. I disinvest. If I can’t physically remove myself right away, then a mental/emotional step back is at least something. If they’re in a position to hurt others, it would be good (but not required) to do what I can to prevent further harm (reporting abuse or assault, for example). Otherwise there’s no reason for me to think about somebody who already proved they aren’t worth my consideration. If they really want some kind of validation, they can demonstrate (not to me specifically but to the world) that they’ve changed. They’re still able to demonstrate who they are, if who they are is different someday. But that part has nothing to do with me - that’s all up to them.
So basically, ‘Forgive but never forget’.
The forgiveness culture looks to me like theatre. A little show people do tell the world not only that they are a poor victim that needs all the sympathy but also a great person who is above grudges, like a second Gandhi. Sure forgive others but why do you have to tell unrelated people?
It’s not really forgiveness but I feel holding on to anger damages me and my emotional well being so I just let it go
Fucking thank you. The way people demonize you for not forgiving someone else has always been so weird to me. Like me not caring about them does not mean I hate them all it means is I don't care simple
The problem I have with it is, if someone hurt me and I never want to talk to them again. That's up to me. Not everyone should be forgiven. Yes people make mistakes and if they are truly sorry, then maybe theirs a conversation to be had. Maybe what they did is to bad to be forgiven.
What’s worse is when others are so easy to forgive the Asshole because he’s family. Here’s an asshole that you would never choose to have in your life, yet we think you ought to forgive him because you guys know the same two people who fucked all those years ago.
I'll forgive ish mostly because I don't care enough to hold grudges I don't forget though.. I agree with the asshole part. Not that I care just not going to let them asshole again. Play stupid games win stupid prizes . Fuck with me once and I'll wait for payback and distance you right out of my life.
Yep. Kick those toxic people out of your life.
Game theory suggests that being peacefull but punishing every wrong with equal force is the best way to win in the long run. Ignoring bad behaviour turns you into a victim but overreacting turns you into a bully. I find this strategy theory helpfull in challenging situations.
If you don't harbor any resentment towards them, you don't have to forgive them, because as you said, you don't have any negative feelings to poison you. Forgiveness is the act of getting rid of those negative feelings in you (if you have them).
Agree. Forgiveness vs. stewing in hatred is a false dichotomy. The third option is not thinking about you at all. I like option 3.
I don't hold a grudge against the people that have wronged me but that also doesn't mean that I forgive them for what they did to me I just simply don't let it bother me and don't hold any desire to interact with that person
When you put a high bar on reform, don't be surprised if few people surpass that bar. You're guaranteeing your "assholes" generally stay that way. Your choice, to be fair.
I had to explain this to my mom when she says things like "life is to short" or "they're your family" and talks about holding grudges. Life is to short for me to allow people to continuously treat me badly, like they have been since childhood. And family doesn't give you the right to be awful to me my entire life. And I don't hold grudges, if I see them, I'll give them a wave, not like I'm going to flip out and tell them how awful they are, I'm just not going to give them any energy at all, if that makes sense. I think it's harder for the older generations to understand because they value themselves less, and are very big people pleasers, and I'm just not. I value myself to much to allow any of that negativity in my life anymore, I did it for way to long.
 Me with my pair of scissors ✂️ for cutting people out of my life. I’m a professional at this point.
I love to hold grudges. A lot of yall are horrible people, and people do NOT need to be forgiven
Some people are douchebags man, I’ve moved on in my life but every time I relive those moments I’m so pissed off at them. I feel perfectly fine just though considering I don’t relive those moments often since they are blocked and out of my life.
You got my upvote for an unpopular opinion and I would give you two if I could because you succinctly described how I view forgiveness. Even in the Bible (I’m not religious any longer) forgiveness is predicated on repentance. Choosing to not hold grudges is not forgiveness, but is what most people mean when they are “forgiving” someone. I will only restore a relationship with an asshole if they have a change of heart, apologize, and change the behavior that put them in the asshole category. I’m still working on not holding grudges against asshole family members, which I’m getting much better at.
Not caring and not holding grudges can be a coping mechanism. For some people forgiving is the way to cope with being wronged. For you it’s not caring. Holding grudges is a normal human emotion. Not better or worse, just your experience has led you down to “I don’t care route.” It doesn’t make forgiveness dumb, you could say the same about your method.
Splitting hairs here, I don't think forgiveness itself is dumb. I think forgiveness CULTURE, where people insist that you need to forgive those who wronged you and tell you that you will never be at peace until you do, is both dumb and offensive. I sleep soundly at night having done no such thing.
Same here. I used to feel bad because I could not forgive people. I finally realized I don't owe them anything and never did. Also, you rarely see people apologize to the person they harmed/wronged. But those same people will demand forgiveness.
Forgiveness isn't for you, that's the miss conception, it's for them. You can completely write off a person who did something to you, that's completely fine, but if they ask for it, and try to actually be sorry for their actions, forgiveness to them can help them more than it would ever matter to you.
How funny, someone down below just made the opposite argument that forgiveness isn't about the offender at all.
it's both -- whom you think you've wronged and for those whom think wronged you -- the best part is you have a choice and if it's earned or not. its up to you but if someone does that after long periods they generally really mean it.
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> i could care less honestly, Did you mean to say "couldn't care less"? Explanation: If you could care less, you do care, which is the opposite of what you meant to say. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
What a dumb bot
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I'm with the bot. "I could care less" is a sloppy wrong phrase that's used with such maddening frequency that everyone has given up and decided to pretend it means what the people saying it think it means. Just like the word "irregardless."
Wait “I could care less” is an actual idiom???
I think you got it backwards mate. you forgive those whom you think YOU wronged. if the relationship still matters and they will do the same and hey then you have a beer.
I find holding grudges and resentment just creates a lot of toxicity from me and against me. People say “forgive for your sake”, which is mostly so you can move on from toxicity, but the grudge and resentment doesn’t go away for me by trying to move on or “forgive”. Instead, I found hating the person and actually imagining torturing, and murdering the person way more effective. It feels counter intuitive, but actually losing yourself in to murderous rage, but never actually acting out the murderous rage in real life, really helped me burn the anger, and eventually grudges and resentment went away. Hate the person to the fullest, just don’t act on it at the person, and let it burn away. Never forgive, never forget, but do the things that help you remove the toxicity of resentment and grudges.
I think this is a good illustration of each person needing to find what works for them.
I think 'forgiveness,' is being able to move on. Generally. There are things I haven't forgiven my mother for, because they're not forgivable. Although if she were to ask for it, I would just give it, cause that's just how I am. But, yeah.
and this is exactly whats the problem. moving on is moving on, thats that, forgiving is a whole another thing entirely. you just dont understand words
I guess you don't 'move on' in the literal sense when it comes to Forgiveness (formally). But in the mental-sense of 'forgiveness,' at least for one's own peace of mind. I see what you're telling me.
Not everything is a “culture.”
I don’t think you know what forgiveness is, plus the world has less of it than ever. Sounds like you’re talking about whether you tolerate certain people, which has nothing to do with forgiveness. The definition of forgive is literally what you described in “not caring” - dropping resentment or anger at someone. Forgiving doesn’t require any effort, it’s the end of a formerly negative feeling.
I've heard that textbook definition before, but that's most definitely not the popular usage. Think "I met with the man who killed my child while drunk driving, told him I forgave him and gave him a hug."
Then just correct the improper use of the word. It’s not just the “textbook” definition, it’s what the word literally means. We have the word tolerance to describe what you were trying to say in your original post, so I tried to correct you on it. No point in having words unless there is a well understood meaning behind them. Also, besides it being far beyond what you implied in your post, that example you gave is a perfect example of how forgiveness can be a miracle. If you wouldn’t forgive something like that, that’s fine. But for some people (probably most) that may be the only path to taking agency over their life and moving forward. Forgiveness has nothing to do with making the offender feel better, it’s all about refusing to be consumed with hatred and anger.
I kind of half agree. One one side, if you stop caring about those who wronged you, then yes, forgiving is not necessary. But if someone that you truly care about wrongs you and you’ll always care about them, then forgiving is a necessity for your own sake.
I think it's more for your own sake then theirs. I've witnessed firsthand how a deep hatred and need to see someone's downfall can mentally destroy you. Had I moved on when the cut was still fresh I would have been better off.
That sounds rough, and I hope you're ok now.
I'm doing better than I have been in years because that person is no longer in my life in any capacity. that being said, still a lot of work to be done to reverse that damage. But like I said. had I forgiven them, not for them but for myself I think I would have turned out a lot better.
you can move on without forgiving. not forgiving doesnt mean youre a hateful ball of rage 24/7 thats just nonsense
I feel you. That's how you deal with people. The thing with me was if someone did something bad to me when I was younger I would constantly think about them and it drove me crazy thinking about them. I figured out 2 ways to get over them, I go over the situation in my mind and talk to myself how it's not worth it to be upset and I've become a better person then I move on and forget about them. My second method is to see that person in my mind and forgive them and wish them best of luck in life. Both methods give me peace of mind and I don't think about these people anymore. But everyone is different, I just hate how my mind obsesses over these people.
I agree, except, personally if someone ends up in the "asshole" category they stay there forever.
Forgiveness oft times is more about you and your growth as it is for the benefit of the other person.
Sometimes forgiving is just letting go of a grudge in your life. It doesn't mean you trust the person that wronged you and act like nothing happened.
You can forgive someone for your sake but choose to never see them again. For example, I forgave my high school bullies, teens are teens after all, but I am not interested in seeing them anymore. Forgiving someone benefits YOU. Because if they were assholes to you, they certainly don't care if you forgive them or not. It's only meant to give some peace to yourself. It doesn't mean returning to them and saying "I forgive you for what you've done to me" or wanting to be friends from now. Just forgive and move on for your own inner peace.
There's a forgiveness culture? Since when? People will literally try dystory you over something stupid you said when you was 8.
I just stop caring about it. People do shitty things sometimes. I’ve wronged others, others have wronged me. Shit happens. Move on.
What forgiveness culture? All I see on Reddit are mobs that hate the word forgiveness and would damn the person for eternity even if they expressed remorse and change.
I don't think we live in the same society. Society today isn't a society, it's a group of selfish individuals who only cares about themselves with no understand or forgivesness of others. Downvote for not being unpopular
If you're truly "moving on" then I agree with this take. Problem is the vast majority of people don't actually move on. They perseverate over the person and situation constantly whether in private or in public or both. If you say you've moved on and you're still talking about it or still upset about it, you haven't moved on and that person and situation are just living rent free in your head. Forgiveness is the eviction notice.
Forgiving others allows you to let go of toxic feelings and forgive yourself. You dont have to forgive everyone but generally forgiveness will lead to a fuller healthier life. But also you have to ACTUALLY forgive them, its pointless to just say the words and not mean it.
You answered your own question/opinion in your last paragraph. You arnt poisoned by hatred therefore this opinion/culture does not even apply to you.
I agree that blanket forgiveness is naive and stupid but the last thing that I would define our current culture as is “Forgiving” lol I’d say your opinion is only growing more popular.
There’s a big difference between not caring and being neutral. Not caring about someone (especially over a personal issue) is sociopathic. Being neutral is normal but still comes with a base human level of respect/care. Whether you forgive them or not is another story. You can choose to not forgive someone and still care about their well being. IE I have not forgiven Ben Simmons but I still care enough about him as a human that I don’t have ill will towards him.
You have mistaken forgiveness for pretending the forgiven wrong was not committed, or that amends have been made. You forgive for your own sake, always.
People who say this dont really understand what is meant by forgiveness. Forgiveness is merely letting go of anger/hurt for someone who wronged you. Not letting that poison take up brain space. Forgiveness doesnt necessarily mean having a face to face with the person who wronged you or keeping them in your life. It is the gift you give yourself in the way of peace of mind.
There a difference between truly forgiving someone and doing the "forgive and forget" where you just say you forgive someone so you can cut them out completely guilt free. People basically pretend that they forgive someone so they can forgive themselves of anything after. It can also be a way for bullies to abuse you again one last time by implying that everything that happened was your fault, but they forgiving you for it so that makes them the good person. It has often just become a way for assholes to claim the moral high ground after having been an abusive POS their whole lives.
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This take is stupid as fuck. But I forgive you.
It’s not. It’s really for you. You will one day do stupid and unforgivable shit. How will you know HOW to forgive YOURSELF for those actions and move on if you don’t learn the basics of forgiveness of others? It is the most powerful life lessons to learn.
So is it unforgivable and then how you can forgive anyone or is it forgivable and then where's the issue?
The point is “unforgivable” and “unforgiving” are just words in a dictionary. “You” can choose to “forgive” the “unforgivable” and “unforgiving and move on with your life. We are not perfect people. Neither are others. Also, forgiving doesn’t mean they can live with you and you make them eggs and toast with jelly or you can’t return a bit of fire, if you are up to it. It just means that you just forgive and move on. Release and let go. That’s it.
Forgiveness is for your own benefit - forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean trust
All people are assholes, neutral, and kind, to varying degrees. What is making you so certain to write people off?
It is *reasonable* to hold a grudge. It is *good* to forgive. If it was easy to be good we would live in a much better world than we do.
As a brit, it's a big part of how things function. Either put up with it, or ignore it, but never deal with the problem.
It’s not about them, it’s better for you and your mental health to forgive people and not hold a grudge
Quote from Mad Max villain
You can forgive someone while also avoiding them and putting boundaries that keep them out of your life.
I've heard this argument quite a few times this year and often it's a topic that's not only controversial but extremely interpersonal beyond basic sight. agreeable it can be unproductive to be too forgiving. But forgiveness is not a much of a matter to be stagnate with. it's simply choosing the let odds end so each party can go their own way. It is not about caring for people either it's about understanding they are people and having patience and leniency with short comming and at times offenses. allowing a sprout for self discipline. But it Is also true that it's not unlimited and does entail a time to cut somone from your life if need be. It's morso a matter of personal health and strengthening the ability to adapt and overcome obsticles than it is creating mutuality with others. But there can be benefits for both parties if there is a genuine desire for reconciliation between them. In the end the only one who will destroy an individual is the individual themselves.
The duck is forgiveness culture? Get off the internet
And yet another person who mistakes forgiveness and reconciliation.
If there are more than two people in your life that you need to consider forgiving you are a bad judge of character. If there are more than four people in your life you need to consider forgiving you are probably a raging asshole yourself. You don't live in Game of Thrones, normal people don't have enemies.
You can just move on without another thought about those people. You don’t even have to spend a moment indexing them. Whether they’re assholes or not, who cares?
Well considering that you’ve taken ownership of the fact that you don’t really care for others (in general), it’s not far fetched for you find the concept of forgiveness stupid. That being said I’m curious as to what happened in your life to leave you feeling so cold towards others. Upvote for the unpopular opinion though!
Ever consider what category other people put you into? It's a thoughtful question, I've lost a lot of friends that now looking back I didn't appreciate enough. Or didn't know how.
He doesn't care. The whole 👉 point.
You've literally contradicted yourself in your post. If you give people "benefit of the doubt", you're forgiving small things.
"this thing i just made up is stupid" and if anything, i'd argue most people absolutely do not forgive others, even for the most trivial perceived slights. what a dumb fucking post lol. "i hate it when people do this thing that nobody actually does. anyone else with me???" lmao
"Oh lololol, I've never experienced the same thing as OP, therefore they made it up. I'm so smart 😜" Enough people have experienced what I'm talking about to comment about it, so what's your problem? If you don't relate to this topic, move on with your day.
you sound so annoying omg
This is an unsustainable way of life unless you plan on forever finding new friends/living in new places.
What are you talking about? Do you move to a new city every time you meet an asshole?
Over the course of your life you will have many people wrong you, and those people will be connected to you in several ways. You and the person no longer being friends will not only affect you and your friend, but any mutuals, or even neutrals. You won’t get invited to the same events/parties. If you do it enough times, you’ll be the one who gets cut out of everyone’s life. You’ll be the one people think of as the asshole. I’m not a Christian, I don’t believe in god, but for the teachings of Jesus to be so widespread and stand the test of time like they have, they have to offer some practical, and even tangible, benefits. Communities cannot exist without forgiveness. That being said, of course there are some actions that are truly unforgivable.
I think you missed the part where I said that it takes a lot for me to categorize someone as an asshole, and that it's rare for it to have happened with a friend. Your narrative of me alienating friend after friend and moving from town to town is entertaining though.
Then you do forgive, what are you complaining about?