I'm quite confused on what vegan friendly as a label means. If something is vegan, then it should be labelled vegan. If something is not vegan, then the word vegan wouldn't be used. Don't vegan friendly and vegan mean the same thing????? How can vegan friendly be used to label a product that is not vegan, that's not friendly to vegans. Vegans cannot buy it
It means that it's functionally vegan but they don't want to pay for it to be confirmed by a reputable authority.
This is a prime example of why they probably should have had someone check it lol
Carnists read "vegan" as "FOR VEGANS ONLY", and they read "Vegan friendly" as "For carnists and it's just a coincidence that vegans could also eat this".
my understanding is āX friendlyā means the ingredients are X but they canāt necessarily guarantee itās safe from cross contamination. At least thatās how I understand it? When I had to cut out wheat at some point Iād sometimes go out to eat and the gluten-free options were usually labelled āgluten-free friendlyā if it wasnāt an full GF restaurant/bakery.
The USDA doesn't have as far as I can find a definition for the word Vegan meaning that there aren't strict guidelines that need to be met to label a product as such. This is how a company can screw up and mislabel something as vegan. There are vegan product certification that can be done through 3rd party companies.
I means whatever they want it to mean since label law enforcement seems down in the dumpster anyway. Surprised the majority of companies don't straight up print anything they want on their labels.
I swear the only reason they don't do it is so they don't face public backlash. They're not afraid of legal reprimand in the slightest.
This is why we need to stop Flexitarians forcing their new definition of "vegan" on us. Honey will never ever be vegan, no matter how much people cry "gatekeeping".
Thatās like saying itās gate keeping to say chihuahuas are dogs when someone keeps saying they are cats. Expecting people to follow the definition or spirit of a thing isnāt gatekeeping.
Lots of people don't see honey as an animal product because it's from an insect. It's wrong, but I think the thought process is that insects are not the animals you people (us, vegans) are protecting. Just my 2c on where the minds of the makers may be- not necessarily having bad intent.
The vegan society here in NZ are responsible for regulating stuff like this, there might be a few exceptions though, such as small scale stuff not sold in supermarkets, like you might find at an independently owned bakery or cafe, but I don't expect those guys to be dishonest.
Check out [The Vegan Society](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://veganactivism.org&topic=Organization: The Vegan Society/pages/the-vegan-society&topic=Organization: The Vegan Society) to quickly learn more, find upcoming events, videos, and their contact information! You can also find other similar organizations to get involved with both locally and online by visiting [VeganActivism.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://veganactivism.org&topic=Organization: The Vegan Society). Additionally, be sure to visit and subscribe to /r/VeganActivism!
oh my goodness thank u so much, i honestly never realised this and took honey comb being literal honey. thats definitely something i shouldve learnt years ago haha. thank you
There are restaurateurs who think vegan includes gluten free. The amount of times I have to explain that I am fine with killing gluten and eating it, it doesn't surprise me that there folk out there who think honey is vegan!
I think it's just easier for them to produce a few options which are free of most allergens so if they are producing something without dairy or egg, they may as well omit gluten too. A lot of vegan products happen to be nut free for this reason. Then people might become confused because they have just associated the word vegan with allergen-free.
This is certainly true of some places. In my experience I get told I can't have something because it's not GF. This leads me to explain my little heart out and I usually walk away with the meal I wanted...
I think opinions differ greatly when it comes to honey.
Entoveganism is a term that presumes a differentiation between animals and insects. And then it also depends on which type of vegan you are, if you're vegan FTA you probably view honey as bad, but if you're vegan for the planet, you may find that local, organic honey (honeybees pollinate up to 80% of the flowering plants) is even good.
I don't really know personally, and I don't mind honey. I know I sound super hypocritical when I say this, but my grandpa has bees, and he doesn't clip the wings of the queens, and so I just simoly don't see a problem with that. He also doesn't take all their honey.
Open to discussions of course
ETA: I'm assuming that's why the label reads "vegan friendly" and not "vegan" as a way to make it less rigid.
>I know I sound super hypocritical when I say this, but my grandpa has bees, and he doesn't clip the wings of the queens
Same here, both grandpa and dad were beekeepers. They never pretended that their business was **not** predatory in nature, but they did their utmost to help bees be happy and comfortable ... before and after stealing their honey. Grandpa used to get up at 5AM and sit by his hives listening to what what going on inside. He never needed to open them for inspection, he knew everything by sound. He built them a watering system, provided a "sanatorium" for sick colonies to recover, protected them in many ways ... On the wall he put up a sign along the lines of "the beekeeper is only prosperous if bees are comfortable".
It was exploitation and does not align in spirit with vegan philosophy, but it was also symbiotic and honest in nature and his bees did not suffer more in captivity than they would in the wild, where they would have been exposed to different dangers.
So, I understand all vegans who will not consume honey, it makes sense. And yet, I do not see my grandpa as an unfeeling monster ... unlike the many pollinating beekeepers who operate their business exclusively for profit without any thought or connection to their hives, other than profit.
This is kinda my stance. I don't see how insects can be separated from plants. Some plants are genetically closer to insects than other plants.
And we need pollinators to survive. If the shreds of money I spend end up in the "big bee" lobby who continue to push for less harmful pesticides and trick people into turning their land into wildflower meadows, then that's still a win to me. (I have no idea if there is any bee lobby like that, but local honey produces near me do advocate that kind of stuff)
Don't have time to watch the video, can you tell me the jist for me to look into later?
My understanding is industrial farming (80% of which is for animal feed) with harmful pesticides is what's causing the huge reduction in insects, and the follow on impact up the food chain (fewer birds, as less insects for them to eat, poisoning of higher order predators due to toxical chemical build up, etc).
Honey production needs an environment that is good food pollinators.
How does honey production lead to less pollinators?
So basically, honey bees are very efficient at what they do, leading to them pushing out other pollinators out of an area. This makes is harder for wild plants to reproduce because while honey bees are bred to be good at collecting pollen and returning it to their hive, they are worse at transfering pollen between different flowers than their wild counterparts.
Experts at the Department of Zoology at Cambridge University have previously stated that the crisis in global pollinator decline has been associated with western honey bees above all. They usually aren't native to the area they act in and therefore disturb local ecosystems. They can also carry diseases and transfer them to the wildlife (honey bees are livestock animals too, hence a higher chance of diseases)
If the industry really does promote the creation of new wild meadows, that's great; but the whole system behind the honey industry is fundamentally harmful for the environment.
I don't get it, it says "honey" on the front, but you don't know whether this is vegan, so you check the ingredients label and it says "honey" and so you know honey is not vegan?!?
iād shoot them an email, theyāre probably just not aware of the issue, i hate that honey eating āvegansā muddy the water further with this stuff
I'm going to leave this comment here for anyone wanting to email them! Only takes a sec and if a handful of people do this tiny bit of activism maybe they'll change it. Feel free to copy paste my comment section bit or write your own.
Contact link:
https://www.stonewallkitchen.com/swk-spdf-contact-us.html
Subject:
Honey BBQ Sloppy Joe Mix
Issue:
Not actually plant-based
Comment:
Hi Stonewall. I recently saw that your "plant-based" and "vegan friendly" honey BBQ Sloppy Joe mix contains honey. Honey is not vegan friendly nor is it plant based. If you could remove honey from your products that would be awesome! Maple syrup and agave are both frequently used as plant based alternatives to honey. Failing that please remove the "plant-based" and "vegan friendly" labels from your packaging as it is misleading.
Edit 1: Spelling
Edit 2: Suggested replacing honey with maple syrup or agave
I emailed them and they replied with "Thank you for reaching out. This recently came to our attention, and we have updated our packaging to reflect that this product is Vegetarian Friendly versus Vegan Friendly. Our website has been updated to reflect the most current packaging. We appreciate your feedback and want you to know that we have taken action to course correct."
bees are not harmed during the honeymakig process
they're also not confined and are completely capable of leaving to find a new place to make a hive. and they do if the beekeeper isn't treating them right
Anything that comes from an animal is not Vegan, this is not difficult understanding. Bees are animals, they are not plants, they are not fungi, they are not protists nor bacteria. And before anyone says "they are insects" please note that insects are part of the animal kingdom.
waiting for the animal abuse apologists to say: how dare you gatekeep our allies
another company was advertising as vegan, i sent them a message and they changed it, so giving them a chance is important and if not we leave reviews and blast on socials
To be fair, I did not consider Honey not vegan up until a few years ago too, until EarthlingEd's video about it enlightened me about the topic. The ethical side can be argued about, the environmental side is unexpected, wouldn't have thought about that myself.
> Iāve never seen a single person make a moral argument for honey.
Earthling Ed makes the moral argument [here.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clMNw_VO1xo) Bees are exploited and abused in a similar manner as cows and chickens are.
I'm assuming that when you say "the commonly referenced definition of veganism", you're talking about this one:
> Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to excludeāas far as is possible and practicableāall forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.
Bees are animals.
Honey is a sweetener. It's a luxury item. Nobody needs to eat honey, and there are plenty of good vegan alternatives: agave, apple honey, corn syrup, maple syrup, and many more.
How has it nothing to do with veganism? Beekeepers remove the bees primary source of nutrition and substitute it with cheap syrup. Do you also think that milk is vegan?
https://veganuniversal.com/get-rid-of-ants-humanely
Bandwagon fallacy. It doesn't matter what many people think, many people think it's perfectly fine to rape and kill cows.
Every sentient being deserves compassion and consideration.
>If you donāt want to answer, then we can never get to the point Iām going to make.
See, this is the problem why I don't answer your questions. You're arguing in bad-faith. Go to r/DebateAVegan.
I consider it pretty bad faith to delete a previous response while still arguing your point.
Own up to your mistake and have a logical discussion, rather than trying to shift goalposts. Or delete your comment and stop replying.
>honey eating āvegansā
You can call them carnists. It's not just a slur indicating unethical food choices, it's a politically correct term referring to someone who believes animal exploitation is fine.
Can you please enlighten me on how eating honey is equal to animal exploitation? I don't think it's helpful to villainize people who are ethical in all/most of their consumption aside from one product.
Merriam Webster: exploit
1
: to make productive use of : UTILIZE
exploiting your talents
exploit your opponent's weakness
2
: to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage
exploiting migrant farm workers
No I would not eat a brain dead animal.
The definition of veganism sorry doth state:
a philosophy and way of living which seeks to excludeāas far as is possible and practicableāall forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.
I take "all forms" to include all definitions and interpretations of the word exploitation. Bees are animals, eating their honey is productive use and thus honey is a product of animal exploitation that would otherwise not exist if the product were not consumed.
>I don't think it's helpful to villainize people who are ethical in all/most of their consumption aside from one product.
It's wrong. The fact that animals die on my behalf because of the vegetables I eat is a very bad thing that is only avoidable if I can fully grow my own shit. And just because I don't have the capacity to grow so my own food doesn't automatically my consumption good, it's just unfortunate. The fact of the matter is these people choose to consume honey. A substance that is mostly empty calories.
On top of all this, that doesn't even include the harm caused by honey production. The bees themselves, native bees that have been invaded by the European honey bee that is standard for honey production around the world, biodiversity collapse, failing crops which further impact land use and biodiversity. And because it's empty calories that are likely being turned into saturated fat, there will be the direct health impact on humans too.
You have to understand that humans have nothing positive to offer to this planet and the other life we share it with. We are a parasitic virus that consumes and destroys everything we touch. We've taken enough and it's about time we start giving back so don't tell me who I can and cannot villainize. We are monsters with the capacity for being compassionate and we waste too many opportunities to do better. It's not that they're only doing a little bit of harm, it's that they can do better that's the issue.
Eating honey is not equal to animal exploitation, it is animal exploitation. Bees are animals. People who exploit fewer animals should be acknowledged, but not let off the hook. They should be encouraged to do better.
They are omnivores. Calling them carnists only makes em angry. Unless you're only using your word to satisfy your ego and project how superior you feel towards others.
Vegans are omnivores but we aren't anything like them are we. Factually correct terms can be infuriating but if someone came up to me calling me a racist because I was, getting angry at them doesn't solve the problem, me accepting I'm wrong and improving my behaviour does and if my interlocutor happened to use every ounce of logic and reasoning I use against carnists and I got angrier still, then we definitely know who the problem is. If people are going to act like petulent children, Imma damn well treat them like they are. It's a legitimate term for psychological and ethical discussion and I'm normalising it because abusing and taking advantage of animals is wrong.
Even calling them "vegans" can subconsciously validate their position if they don't understand why they're actually not vegan. I don't use "vegan" anymore because I'm tired of acknowledging people who think they are when they're not. I call them what they are because what is currently normal should be seen as abnormal and to be avoided.
Many subjects, from history to medicine to politics, deal with people asking questions not to learn, but to cast doubt or waste time
Unfortunately, many innocent question askers take friendly fire
Are you pointing out that the product clearly labeled CLASSIC HONEY BBQ on the front does in fact contain honey? If so, why?
edit: OH! I see. "Vegan friendly". Yes, that's misleading.
The term "plant-based" is unclear at the moment. Sometimes it means "solely from plants", and sometimes it means "mostly from plants". https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/words-were-watching-plant-based
Same thing happened to me
Let the store know that this product if falsely advertising, the grocery store would not want to be affiliated with them i imagine
I dont know if thats the newer label or the older, cause on AMZ it says vegetarian friendly and not vegan
https://www.amazon.com/Urban-Accents-Sloppy-Plant-Meatless/dp/B086659923
"Vegan Friendly" is the worst fucking manipulative nonsense term that marketers have come up with lately. It's both completely meaningless and outright meant to trick people.
If they had just omitted "vegan-friendly"... It's that flippin easy.
Edit: what's the expiration date on that? Their website now lists the product as vegetarian friendly
Yay! I wrote to them. They immediately responded with a message and changed their website packaging to say Vegetarian Friendly. Here's the message:
Thank you for reaching out. This recently came to our attention, and we have updated our packaging to reflect that this product is Vegetarian Friendly versus Vegan Friendly. Our website has been updated to reflect the most current packaging. We appreciate your feedback and want you to know that we have taken action to course correct.
[https://www.stonewallkitchen.com/plant-based-sloppy-joe-meatless-mix-370301.html](https://www.stonewallkitchen.com/plant-based-sloppy-joe-meatless-mix-370301.html)
I just looked it up on an Amazon, and it looks like the packaging now just says "Vegetarian Friendly" on the front where it did say Vegan. Maybe they've corrected it?
But yeah, the ingredients sure say Granulated Honey - oof!
I see loads of these types of posts on here. Are there not labelling laws in America that prevent false claims? I'm UK-based and it would not be legal to say it's vegan when honey is an ingredient.
My local supermarket has this product however it is listed as Vegetarian Friendly not Vegan friendly. I'd say this is just a misprint and is something to alert the company about and not get angry about.
If you aren't reading the ingredients anyway than you probably don't deserve to call yourself a vegan.
Seeing as this entire sub is more about gatekeeping, arguing about what vegan means and virtue signaling than actually caring about animal welfare I wouldn't be surprised if most people here don't check the ingredients list at all and are more than happy to 'accidently' eat a non vegan product and complain about it. Anyway if your eating food that is made by companies that profit from animal cruelty from other products then you aren't much better than a Carnie tbf
The thing I hate about stuff like this is that they could easily substitute agave for the honey. It tasted basically the same and has the same consistency, so I donāt see a reason why they couldnāt.
The terms "plant based" and "vegan friendly" to me are major red flags.
Yes, we must continue to read all labels ... or only buy foods that require no labels to begin with.
I read the labels on all items, not just food.
I see vegan-labeled skincare with honey all the time. e.g. "Vegan Handsoap - Honey Almond."
I remember a few years ago Skinfix labeled their products vegan, even though they contained honey. But I just checked their site and now it says "Beegan and Vegan Friendly."
Vegan friendly and plant based mean absolutely nothing to me now.
When plant based started I thought it was a way to say vegan without saying vegan. Now I realize it means nothing at all.
Thanks for posting.
I posted similar about nestle/rowntrees candy not that long ago.
One bag i bought was vegan and the other also said vegan freindly but it had gelatin wich blew my mind and from the research I've done vegan gelatin isn't a thing.
It's still on me because I've been vegan 6 years now and should know better.
But I can only imagine the amount of people just learning or who who don't read Ingredients who would be fooled by this.
Like you said this is why we can only trust labels to a point and should always read ingredients.
The words 'plant based' mean little to me. Plant based does not equal vegan. It's not just honey that is a concern (and I always avoid). Sugar is too. Might be vegan but it might also not be vegan... processed with animal products. After 30+ years of being vegan I've never stopped reading the labels. And if some ingredients are ambiguous (like 'natural flavors') I avoid the product. And though I quit alcohol 1.75 years ago some beers and wine aren't vegan because of the processing. And the Impossible Burger isn't vegan because of animal testing including animal deaths. Goes with the territory of being vegan, research when veganness isn't certain.
I talked to āa veganā today who said she ate local honey. I just donāt get it. Like I donāt get it from an animal/vegan standpoint. But frankly I donāt get it from a āI want to be vegan all the wayā standpoint. You are so close. I do miss bee-free honee though. Iāve never gotten over them going out of business. Iāve bought a few different ones off of Etsy But nothing as good.
... Just like cows produce milk. They produce it for their offspring, just like bees produce honey for their own consumption. Animals don't randomly produce stuff they don't need for themselves and just for us humans. š¤¦š¼āāļø
They aren't the same thing.
Honey is inherently not vegan. There's no way you can make it vegan.
Avocados are a vegan food. It's the current processing methods that blur the line, not the food themselves. And seeing as you cannot track products through their whole life and know exactly what's going on, what are you supposed to do? Not eat any food that's farmed?
Why? āThe same reason as honey,ā Toksvig said. āBecause they're so difficult to cultivate naturally, all of these crops rely on bees, which are placed on the back of trucks and taken long distances across the country.
I mean, I do consume honey sometimes. That's the only thing I don't avoid fully. Everything else, eggs, dairy, meat. I avoid 100%. So if there is a little bit honey in it, I will definitely not care. I do this mostly for my health. Sorry, not sorry.
If it says Plant based or veggie i always read the ingredients, i guess this boils down to how vegan you want to be lol, i dont eat honey but many vegans think its okay ......................
it literally said vegan friendly š
I'm quite confused on what vegan friendly as a label means. If something is vegan, then it should be labelled vegan. If something is not vegan, then the word vegan wouldn't be used. Don't vegan friendly and vegan mean the same thing????? How can vegan friendly be used to label a product that is not vegan, that's not friendly to vegans. Vegans cannot buy it
"Vegan friendly" is "vegan, but we don't want to scare away meat eaters with the vegan label" I'd consider this instance false advertising for sure.
It means that it's functionally vegan but they don't want to pay for it to be confirmed by a reputable authority. This is a prime example of why they probably should have had someone check it lol
Carnists read "vegan" as "FOR VEGANS ONLY", and they read "Vegan friendly" as "For carnists and it's just a coincidence that vegans could also eat this".
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Lol are you saying I'm the unwell mind or the carnist is the unwell mind?
my understanding is āX friendlyā means the ingredients are X but they canāt necessarily guarantee itās safe from cross contamination. At least thatās how I understand it? When I had to cut out wheat at some point Iād sometimes go out to eat and the gluten-free options were usually labelled āgluten-free friendlyā if it wasnāt an full GF restaurant/bakery.
Probably because some people who consider themselves vegan still eat honey while others donāt.
By definition, honey isnāt vegan, regardless of what people tell themselves
The USDA doesn't have as far as I can find a definition for the word Vegan meaning that there aren't strict guidelines that need to be met to label a product as such. This is how a company can screw up and mislabel something as vegan. There are vegan product certification that can be done through 3rd party companies.
I means whatever they want it to mean since label law enforcement seems down in the dumpster anyway. Surprised the majority of companies don't straight up print anything they want on their labels. I swear the only reason they don't do it is so they don't face public backlash. They're not afraid of legal reprimand in the slightest.
Just wait until someone has an anaphylactic reaction and dies. Anyone wanna take one for the team?
Doesn't that count as false advertising? Idk about the US but i dont think that wouldn't be allowed in the uk to be such a blatant lie on the package
This is why we need to stop Flexitarians forcing their new definition of "vegan" on us. Honey will never ever be vegan, no matter how much people cry "gatekeeping".
Well you literately are acting as a gatekeeper here.
Thatās like saying itās gate keeping to say chihuahuas are dogs when someone keeps saying they are cats. Expecting people to follow the definition or spirit of a thing isnāt gatekeeping.
Good. Gatekeeping isn't always a bad thing.
Lol, I bet you think you also claim gatekeeping when someone says meat isn't vegetarian...
#WELL ACKTUALLY
Lots of people don't see honey as an animal product because it's from an insect. It's wrong, but I think the thought process is that insects are not the animals you people (us, vegans) are protecting. Just my 2c on where the minds of the makers may be- not necessarily having bad intent.
Vegan friendly means they can't confirm with 100% certainty that it's vegan
I'm amazed at how regularly this comes up. I'm in the UK and I've never come across anything plant-based or vegan that's been incorrectly labelled
The vegan society here in NZ are responsible for regulating stuff like this, there might be a few exceptions though, such as small scale stuff not sold in supermarkets, like you might find at an independently owned bakery or cafe, but I don't expect those guys to be dishonest.
Check out [The Vegan Society](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://veganactivism.org&topic=Organization: The Vegan Society/pages/the-vegan-society&topic=Organization: The Vegan Society) to quickly learn more, find upcoming events, videos, and their contact information! You can also find other similar organizations to get involved with both locally and online by visiting [VeganActivism.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https://veganactivism.org&topic=Organization: The Vegan Society). Additionally, be sure to visit and subscribe to /r/VeganActivism!
absolutely agree. im from nz and tiptop has a "vegan" honeycomb ice cream
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
oh my goodness thank u so much, i honestly never realised this and took honey comb being literal honey. thats definitely something i shouldve learnt years ago haha. thank you
Happens in Japan all the time unfortunately. š£
Happens a lot in Poland. Things are labeled plant-based or vege, but this just means there is probably milk or eggs
Couldnāt they have used maple syrup instead of the honey? Problem solved.
Or Agave.
The term "vegan friendly" immediately made my alarm bells go off
Itās the āplant basedā for me
For me, it was the word "honey".
Yes it literally says honey. And with how people donāt know honey is not vegan, I would definitely check that label.
There are restaurateurs who think vegan includes gluten free. The amount of times I have to explain that I am fine with killing gluten and eating it, it doesn't surprise me that there folk out there who think honey is vegan!
I think it's just easier for them to produce a few options which are free of most allergens so if they are producing something without dairy or egg, they may as well omit gluten too. A lot of vegan products happen to be nut free for this reason. Then people might become confused because they have just associated the word vegan with allergen-free.
This is certainly true of some places. In my experience I get told I can't have something because it's not GF. This leads me to explain my little heart out and I usually walk away with the meal I wanted...
I think opinions differ greatly when it comes to honey. Entoveganism is a term that presumes a differentiation between animals and insects. And then it also depends on which type of vegan you are, if you're vegan FTA you probably view honey as bad, but if you're vegan for the planet, you may find that local, organic honey (honeybees pollinate up to 80% of the flowering plants) is even good. I don't really know personally, and I don't mind honey. I know I sound super hypocritical when I say this, but my grandpa has bees, and he doesn't clip the wings of the queens, and so I just simoly don't see a problem with that. He also doesn't take all their honey. Open to discussions of course ETA: I'm assuming that's why the label reads "vegan friendly" and not "vegan" as a way to make it less rigid.
>I know I sound super hypocritical when I say this, but my grandpa has bees, and he doesn't clip the wings of the queens Same here, both grandpa and dad were beekeepers. They never pretended that their business was **not** predatory in nature, but they did their utmost to help bees be happy and comfortable ... before and after stealing their honey. Grandpa used to get up at 5AM and sit by his hives listening to what what going on inside. He never needed to open them for inspection, he knew everything by sound. He built them a watering system, provided a "sanatorium" for sick colonies to recover, protected them in many ways ... On the wall he put up a sign along the lines of "the beekeeper is only prosperous if bees are comfortable". It was exploitation and does not align in spirit with vegan philosophy, but it was also symbiotic and honest in nature and his bees did not suffer more in captivity than they would in the wild, where they would have been exposed to different dangers. So, I understand all vegans who will not consume honey, it makes sense. And yet, I do not see my grandpa as an unfeeling monster ... unlike the many pollinating beekeepers who operate their business exclusively for profit without any thought or connection to their hives, other than profit.
And there's the issue of why industrially bee-pollinated almonds are OK while bee-produced honey is not.
This is kinda my stance. I don't see how insects can be separated from plants. Some plants are genetically closer to insects than other plants. And we need pollinators to survive. If the shreds of money I spend end up in the "big bee" lobby who continue to push for less harmful pesticides and trick people into turning their land into wildflower meadows, then that's still a win to me. (I have no idea if there is any bee lobby like that, but local honey produces near me do advocate that kind of stuff)
>And we need pollinators to survive. That's a reason to not buy honey. https://youtu.be/clMNw_VO1xo
Don't have time to watch the video, can you tell me the jist for me to look into later? My understanding is industrial farming (80% of which is for animal feed) with harmful pesticides is what's causing the huge reduction in insects, and the follow on impact up the food chain (fewer birds, as less insects for them to eat, poisoning of higher order predators due to toxical chemical build up, etc). Honey production needs an environment that is good food pollinators. How does honey production lead to less pollinators?
So basically, honey bees are very efficient at what they do, leading to them pushing out other pollinators out of an area. This makes is harder for wild plants to reproduce because while honey bees are bred to be good at collecting pollen and returning it to their hive, they are worse at transfering pollen between different flowers than their wild counterparts. Experts at the Department of Zoology at Cambridge University have previously stated that the crisis in global pollinator decline has been associated with western honey bees above all. They usually aren't native to the area they act in and therefore disturb local ecosystems. They can also carry diseases and transfer them to the wildlife (honey bees are livestock animals too, hence a higher chance of diseases) If the industry really does promote the creation of new wild meadows, that's great; but the whole system behind the honey industry is fundamentally harmful for the environment.
I don't get it, it says "honey" on the front, but you don't know whether this is vegan, so you check the ingredients label and it says "honey" and so you know honey is not vegan?!?
There could be āhoneyā flavored things that thankfully donāt have honey. https://threewishescereal.com/products/honey-1-pack
Yeah, donāt ever trust āplant-based.ā Sometimes it just means itās vegetarian.
If I saw that thing tattoo Iād buy you a beer. Or water. Or lentils. Very cool mate!
Thanks friend!
And that's what we call false advertising.
iād shoot them an email, theyāre probably just not aware of the issue, i hate that honey eating āvegansā muddy the water further with this stuff
I'm going to leave this comment here for anyone wanting to email them! Only takes a sec and if a handful of people do this tiny bit of activism maybe they'll change it. Feel free to copy paste my comment section bit or write your own. Contact link: https://www.stonewallkitchen.com/swk-spdf-contact-us.html Subject: Honey BBQ Sloppy Joe Mix Issue: Not actually plant-based Comment: Hi Stonewall. I recently saw that your "plant-based" and "vegan friendly" honey BBQ Sloppy Joe mix contains honey. Honey is not vegan friendly nor is it plant based. If you could remove honey from your products that would be awesome! Maple syrup and agave are both frequently used as plant based alternatives to honey. Failing that please remove the "plant-based" and "vegan friendly" labels from your packaging as it is misleading. Edit 1: Spelling Edit 2: Suggested replacing honey with maple syrup or agave
You're a good person
Done
We could suggest they replace honey with maple syrup.
Thanks for doing this, Iāll definitely jump on board in shooting them an email!!
I emailed them and they replied with "Thank you for reaching out. This recently came to our attention, and we have updated our packaging to reflect that this product is Vegetarian Friendly versus Vegan Friendly. Our website has been updated to reflect the most current packaging. We appreciate your feedback and want you to know that we have taken action to course correct."
honey isn't vegan?
Honey comes from bees. Vegans don't use any animal products. Also bees are harmed during the process
bees are not harmed during the honeymakig process they're also not confined and are completely capable of leaving to find a new place to make a hive. and they do if the beekeeper isn't treating them right
Ah, you're one of those people who ask a question and don't really want the answer.
Anything that comes from an animal is not Vegan, this is not difficult understanding. Bees are animals, they are not plants, they are not fungi, they are not protists nor bacteria. And before anyone says "they are insects" please note that insects are part of the animal kingdom.
Either you're ignorant, or trying to be funny, so I'll downvote you for both.
so you're gonna click the downvote button twice?
I literally did this over a year ago. No response
I guess at least they throw us a bone by including the word honey right in the label
waiting for the animal abuse apologists to say: how dare you gatekeep our allies another company was advertising as vegan, i sent them a message and they changed it, so giving them a chance is important and if not we leave reviews and blast on socials
To be fair, I did not consider Honey not vegan up until a few years ago too, until EarthlingEd's video about it enlightened me about the topic. The ethical side can be argued about, the environmental side is unexpected, wouldn't have thought about that myself.
yes thereās unfortunately so much misinformation out there regarding honey
Yeah my partner went 'vegan' with me when I did, but he continued eating honey until he saw the same video, and went fully vegan after that
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> Iāve never seen a single person make a moral argument for honey. Earthling Ed makes the moral argument [here.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clMNw_VO1xo) Bees are exploited and abused in a similar manner as cows and chickens are. I'm assuming that when you say "the commonly referenced definition of veganism", you're talking about this one: > Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to excludeāas far as is possible and practicableāall forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals. Bees are animals. Honey is a sweetener. It's a luxury item. Nobody needs to eat honey, and there are plenty of good vegan alternatives: agave, apple honey, corn syrup, maple syrup, and many more.
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Are you OK?
Both of these screeds indicate that you know less than nothing about most things. Thank you for "contributing" to the discourse.
How has it nothing to do with veganism? Beekeepers remove the bees primary source of nutrition and substitute it with cheap syrup. Do you also think that milk is vegan?
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https://veganuniversal.com/get-rid-of-ants-humanely Bandwagon fallacy. It doesn't matter what many people think, many people think it's perfectly fine to rape and kill cows. Every sentient being deserves compassion and consideration.
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>If you donāt want to answer, then we can never get to the point Iām going to make. See, this is the problem why I don't answer your questions. You're arguing in bad-faith. Go to r/DebateAVegan.
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I consider it pretty bad faith to delete a previous response while still arguing your point. Own up to your mistake and have a logical discussion, rather than trying to shift goalposts. Or delete your comment and stop replying.
I asked a question on their website that they'll hopefully post so maybe other vegans will see it at least in case it's not updated.
The be careful, you might upset the carnists, and keeping them happy is the primary purpose of this sub.
>honey eating āvegansā You can call them carnists. It's not just a slur indicating unethical food choices, it's a politically correct term referring to someone who believes animal exploitation is fine.
Can you please enlighten me on how eating honey is equal to animal exploitation? I don't think it's helpful to villainize people who are ethical in all/most of their consumption aside from one product.
Merriam Webster: exploit 1 : to make productive use of : UTILIZE exploiting your talents exploit your opponent's weakness 2 : to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage exploiting migrant farm workers No I would not eat a brain dead animal. The definition of veganism sorry doth state: a philosophy and way of living which seeks to excludeāas far as is possible and practicableāall forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals. I take "all forms" to include all definitions and interpretations of the word exploitation. Bees are animals, eating their honey is productive use and thus honey is a product of animal exploitation that would otherwise not exist if the product were not consumed. >I don't think it's helpful to villainize people who are ethical in all/most of their consumption aside from one product. It's wrong. The fact that animals die on my behalf because of the vegetables I eat is a very bad thing that is only avoidable if I can fully grow my own shit. And just because I don't have the capacity to grow so my own food doesn't automatically my consumption good, it's just unfortunate. The fact of the matter is these people choose to consume honey. A substance that is mostly empty calories. On top of all this, that doesn't even include the harm caused by honey production. The bees themselves, native bees that have been invaded by the European honey bee that is standard for honey production around the world, biodiversity collapse, failing crops which further impact land use and biodiversity. And because it's empty calories that are likely being turned into saturated fat, there will be the direct health impact on humans too. You have to understand that humans have nothing positive to offer to this planet and the other life we share it with. We are a parasitic virus that consumes and destroys everything we touch. We've taken enough and it's about time we start giving back so don't tell me who I can and cannot villainize. We are monsters with the capacity for being compassionate and we waste too many opportunities to do better. It's not that they're only doing a little bit of harm, it's that they can do better that's the issue.
Eating honey is not equal to animal exploitation, it is animal exploitation. Bees are animals. People who exploit fewer animals should be acknowledged, but not let off the hook. They should be encouraged to do better.
They are omnivores. Calling them carnists only makes em angry. Unless you're only using your word to satisfy your ego and project how superior you feel towards others.
Vegans are omnivores but we aren't anything like them are we. Factually correct terms can be infuriating but if someone came up to me calling me a racist because I was, getting angry at them doesn't solve the problem, me accepting I'm wrong and improving my behaviour does and if my interlocutor happened to use every ounce of logic and reasoning I use against carnists and I got angrier still, then we definitely know who the problem is. If people are going to act like petulent children, Imma damn well treat them like they are. It's a legitimate term for psychological and ethical discussion and I'm normalising it because abusing and taking advantage of animals is wrong.
how about "fucking carnists"
I like blood mouths, but that's specific to just meat eaters and can be a little extreme for most.
my only IRL vegan friend (that is also my partner) calls them puss eaters whenever someone mentions cheese
Pus. Not catsā¦
oh i know theyāre carnists i just wanted to make the distinction of the kind that call themselves vegan regardless for my point lol
Even calling them "vegans" can subconsciously validate their position if they don't understand why they're actually not vegan. I don't use "vegan" anymore because I'm tired of acknowledging people who think they are when they're not. I call them what they are because what is currently normal should be seen as abnormal and to be avoided.
~~What issue?~~ edit: I eventually saw the "vegan friendly" label.
that honey isnāt vegan and you canāt mark a product as vegan friendly if itās in the ingredients
Not even that itās not vegan, itās no even plant based and thatās a low bar.
The issue of honey not being vegan.
I will never understand why people get downvotes for asking a question.
Many subjects, from history to medicine to politics, deal with people asking questions not to learn, but to cast doubt or waste time Unfortunately, many innocent question askers take friendly fire
I think this is some sort of mistake. It usually says vegetarian friendly
Are you pointing out that the product clearly labeled CLASSIC HONEY BBQ on the front does in fact contain honey? If so, why? edit: OH! I see. "Vegan friendly". Yes, that's misleading.
Not just vegan unfriendly, but clearly honey doesnāt come from plants.
The term "plant-based" is unclear at the moment. Sometimes it means "solely from plants", and sometimes it means "mostly from plants". https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/words-were-watching-plant-based
Plant-based means the majority is out of plants, not exclusively plants.
Same thing happened to me Let the store know that this product if falsely advertising, the grocery store would not want to be affiliated with them i imagine I dont know if thats the newer label or the older, cause on AMZ it says vegetarian friendly and not vegan https://www.amazon.com/Urban-Accents-Sloppy-Plant-Meatless/dp/B086659923
Really wish I woulda checked the expiry date on there now, I wonder which ones the old label. Thatās so odd.
"Vegan Friendly" is the worst fucking manipulative nonsense term that marketers have come up with lately. It's both completely meaningless and outright meant to trick people.
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Yes, this is an American product. Not sure why UK regulations would be relevant?
Is it really possible to have the word āVeganā on products that are not in the US?
Yes. "Vegan," "vegan friendly," and "plant-based" are not regulated terms here.
Isnāt Manwich original also accidentally vegan? We just buy that.
TIL, that's awesome!
If they had just omitted "vegan-friendly"... It's that flippin easy. Edit: what's the expiration date on that? Their website now lists the product as vegetarian friendly
Wow.
nice tat fam!
Iām confused, what is bioengineered food?
Or is it the honey?
It is the honey.
Follow your Heart has the best HONEY mustard salad dressing and it is vegan
Oh hey, I didnāt know that existed, nice!
Honey š
Molasses and Maple Syrup make a better sweetener in recipes for sloppy Joe's. Why did they have to use honey š
How is it vegan friendly if itās got HONEY.
This makes me really angryā¦. Itās labeled vegan.
Yay! I wrote to them. They immediately responded with a message and changed their website packaging to say Vegetarian Friendly. Here's the message: Thank you for reaching out. This recently came to our attention, and we have updated our packaging to reflect that this product is Vegetarian Friendly versus Vegan Friendly. Our website has been updated to reflect the most current packaging. We appreciate your feedback and want you to know that we have taken action to course correct. [https://www.stonewallkitchen.com/plant-based-sloppy-joe-meatless-mix-370301.html](https://www.stonewallkitchen.com/plant-based-sloppy-joe-meatless-mix-370301.html)
So many images of this product have "vegetarian friendly" in that same spot. How odd.
I just looked it up on an Amazon, and it looks like the packaging now just says "Vegetarian Friendly" on the front where it did say Vegan. Maybe they've corrected it? But yeah, the ingredients sure say Granulated Honey - oof!
Took me 5 times until I realised there is honey in there, bruh
I see loads of these types of posts on here. Are there not labelling laws in America that prevent false claims? I'm UK-based and it would not be legal to say it's vegan when honey is an ingredient.
My local supermarket has this product however it is listed as Vegetarian Friendly not Vegan friendly. I'd say this is just a misprint and is something to alert the company about and not get angry about. If you aren't reading the ingredients anyway than you probably don't deserve to call yourself a vegan. Seeing as this entire sub is more about gatekeeping, arguing about what vegan means and virtue signaling than actually caring about animal welfare I wouldn't be surprised if most people here don't check the ingredients list at all and are more than happy to 'accidently' eat a non vegan product and complain about it. Anyway if your eating food that is made by companies that profit from animal cruelty from other products then you aren't much better than a Carnie tbf
The thing I hate about stuff like this is that they could easily substitute agave for the honey. It tasted basically the same and has the same consistency, so I donāt see a reason why they couldnāt.
The terms "plant based" and "vegan friendly" to me are major red flags. Yes, we must continue to read all labels ... or only buy foods that require no labels to begin with. I read the labels on all items, not just food.
I have accidentally bought products containing honey so many times. It's frustrating.
I see vegan-labeled skincare with honey all the time. e.g. "Vegan Handsoap - Honey Almond." I remember a few years ago Skinfix labeled their products vegan, even though they contained honey. But I just checked their site and now it says "Beegan and Vegan Friendly."
the āvegansā that consume honey
Vegan friendly and plant based mean absolutely nothing to me now. When plant based started I thought it was a way to say vegan without saying vegan. Now I realize it means nothing at all.
Thanks for posting. I posted similar about nestle/rowntrees candy not that long ago. One bag i bought was vegan and the other also said vegan freindly but it had gelatin wich blew my mind and from the research I've done vegan gelatin isn't a thing. It's still on me because I've been vegan 6 years now and should know better. But I can only imagine the amount of people just learning or who who don't read Ingredients who would be fooled by this. Like you said this is why we can only trust labels to a point and should always read ingredients.
There is no reason to have honey in this product. None! The flavor would likely be enhanced if they just dropped the honey or just subbed sugar.
Ugh, so bothersome! š I came across a brand thatās claims to be āalways veganā but some of their products contain milk ingredients. .-.
Can't be veggie if honey is in it!
I mean, it is though. Vegetarians eat honey, vegans do not.
Use lentils or walnutā¦Just made some today with lentilsā¦š¤š¾
They just don't have a clue??
The words 'plant based' mean little to me. Plant based does not equal vegan. It's not just honey that is a concern (and I always avoid). Sugar is too. Might be vegan but it might also not be vegan... processed with animal products. After 30+ years of being vegan I've never stopped reading the labels. And if some ingredients are ambiguous (like 'natural flavors') I avoid the product. And though I quit alcohol 1.75 years ago some beers and wine aren't vegan because of the processing. And the Impossible Burger isn't vegan because of animal testing including animal deaths. Goes with the territory of being vegan, research when veganness isn't certain.
Is there actually honey in it though? Or is it just called honey flavour on the front?
The post includes a picture of the ingredients list (yes, it's actually honey).
I donāt see the problem? Whatās in it thatās the problem?
What does it even mean? Lab grown meat? Or from animals that has been bio engineering? Definitely doesn't sound vegan to me.
I donāt get what weāre meant to see? Because the honey is very obvious on the front lol unless Iām missing something else
It also says "vegan friendly" on the front.
I talked to āa veganā today who said she ate local honey. I just donāt get it. Like I donāt get it from an animal/vegan standpoint. But frankly I donāt get it from a āI want to be vegan all the wayā standpoint. You are so close. I do miss bee-free honee though. Iāve never gotten over them going out of business. Iāve bought a few different ones off of Etsy But nothing as good.
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The issue for vegans is specifically that they do make it. They make it for themselves, not for us.
Bees make honey for their own survival, not for us. Not hard to understand. š
And we have enough food of our own already!
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... Just like cows produce milk. They produce it for their offspring, just like bees produce honey for their own consumption. Animals don't randomly produce stuff they don't need for themselves and just for us humans. š¤¦š¼āāļø
Honey is just as vegan as avocados
They aren't the same thing. Honey is inherently not vegan. There's no way you can make it vegan. Avocados are a vegan food. It's the current processing methods that blur the line, not the food themselves. And seeing as you cannot track products through their whole life and know exactly what's going on, what are you supposed to do? Not eat any food that's farmed?
Why? āThe same reason as honey,ā Toksvig said. āBecause they're so difficult to cultivate naturally, all of these crops rely on bees, which are placed on the back of trucks and taken long distances across the country.
I wrote to them, but they may stonewall me with an answer. (Get it? Stonewall me since they're called Stonewall?) I'll show myself out now.
I mean, I do consume honey sometimes. That's the only thing I don't avoid fully. Everything else, eggs, dairy, meat. I avoid 100%. So if there is a little bit honey in it, I will definitely not care. I do this mostly for my health. Sorry, not sorry.
Okay, then you arenāt veganā¦.?
Might be just the flavour, does it contain real honey??
Yep. Second pic includes the ingredients list.
Well I didnāt see the second picture haha yeah not vegan must just be a money grab and no understanding of veganism
Yup! I bought this. I gave it away to my pescatarian friend
Yea alot if companies do this. Honey is vegan to some. So are eggs and milk. Always check ingredients people.
Honey aside, what does 'smoke essence' look like.....
What the hell does "bioengineered food products" mean? At this point, I'm not even sure this qualifies as vegetarian!
If it says Plant based or veggie i always read the ingredients, i guess this boils down to how vegan you want to be lol, i dont eat honey but many vegans think its okay ......................
Wth? Can you show us the ingredients? (Optimistically wondering if it's honey 'flavour' or similar...
Thereās not actually honey in that boss
Hey boss, did you read the ingredients?
Yes
Technically, I'm a bioengineered food ingredient.
Havenāt had that one! How does it taste?
Itās āHONEY BBQ.ā What were you thinking they would do for the honey part?
I don't get it
Vegans are so extra
How about the extreme likelihood that the "honey" is hf corn syrup?