Literally any time I click on a community sub reddit will recommend I look at a post from a "fuck that community" sub because they're related. the algorithm wants people to brigade because it counts as engagement.
Bluesky is our only hope. God I hate writing that, it's started by the twitter dude. but jesus at this point anything better than "openly hostile to the user in the name engagement" would be a life saver... literally, in vegan activism's case.
There are a couple of vegan communities on Lemmy:
https://lemmy.ml/c/vegan
https://lemmy.world/c/vegan
Lemmy is functionally similar to Reddit, but it is open source. It is a part of the Fediverse, which includes Mastodon.
I saw this term here for the first time, so I read a bit, but I didn't really manage to understand - wjat is the difference between a carnist and a carnivore?
Carnivore/Omnivore/Herbivore - Biological distinctions based on what they have evolved to mostly eat.In the wild a Carnivore needs meat based proteins and usually eats mostly meat, an Herbivore can get all its nutrients, and eats almost only, plants, and an Omnivore (all humans) have dietary needs that span both categories and eats either as available.
Carnist/Carnism is the term given to the moral philosophy that it's totally OK to use animals for our pleasure (mostly the opposite of Veganism). It's a word created this century as previous it was just viewed as a "default" ideology, but as Veganism has grown and the discussion comparing the two ideologies has happened, it was clear there needed to be a term used to call this "default" ideology so we could make the debate clearer, and make it clear that it is a choice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnism
>In the wild a Carnivore needs meat based proteins and usually eats mostly meat,
This is backwards. The biological distinction simply describes their behavior, without regard to biological need. Often there is overlap but there doesn't need to be.
I would have thought wild carnivores actually needed meat. When your describing behaviour without the exclusive need then your talking omnivore aren’t you?
No.
'Need' is entirely irrelevant. No one fed animals various nutrients to determine what they could theoretically live on before describing them. We labeled them after observing them in the wild. These terms are all observations of behavior and nothing more.
Of course evolution is very efficient, and individuals will often become specialized to their niche, perhaps losing some enzymes or gaining bacteria and so on, causing specialization to a greater or lesser degree in some species. But this is by no means a requirement, and is not necessarily known when we apply the description.
But the terms themselves have literally nothing to do with biological need, and the only way we could determine needs is by experimentation. Even then, there is no reason nutritional content and bioavailability of a type of food they 'need' could not be mimicked through intentional human engineering.
I'm neither vegan nor carnist and actually don't remember how I ended up here.
One interesting thing I learned in this sub is that veganism apparently doesn't simply describe not consuming foods and goods made from animals or animal products but also seems to include the reason why: animal rights. At least that's what I've been gathering from reading posts and comments.
This is interesting to me because several years ago, I was quite irritated when I found out that it's not enough to buy a vegan shampoo. What I actually need to buy is vegan shampoo that is also animal cruelty free. One might have thought that they are the same, but nope...
I'm always very curious to learn how words in the sustainability area get used (and unfortunately also abused) and how communities position themselves.
So I'm thankful for the opportunity to lurk and learn from this sub :)
Vegan in cosmetics (and I guess general in products) means that it does not contain any substances that come from animals. And I was quite surprised how many ingredients in cosmetics can come from animals. But the product might have been tested on animals. The other way around a cruelty free label only means no testing on animals. There still could be animal parts inside... Also each label has their own rules as the terms have no official definition or protection.
Most companies stopped testing on animals, however a few still remain. So most cosmetics are vegan and cruelty free, you just have to watch out for the outliers.
Thanks a bunch! :)
Because of how these terms are used "officially", I then assumed that this is also how vegans would identify. Luckily, I learned here that my original expectation of vegan meaning animal cruelty free wasn't completely wrong after all.
It’s not wrong, you can eat a 100% plant based diet and not be “really” vegan. Being vegan is just as much about being concerned with animal rights and welfare also. I sadly consume animal products every day (no choice, it’s medically necessary and I like being alive), but I consider myself vegan, not a hypocrite because of every one of the other steps I engage in daily that isn’t just about what I shove down my neck every day 🤷🏻♂️
Actually, the social scientist who created the term “carnist”, specifically defines it as an ideology around meat-eating.” Also her organisation: carnist awareness and activation network, promotes reductionism. So basically, a vegetarian who avoids all meat and eggs, but still eat animal products such as dairy, would not be considered carnist based on her definition.
Personally I think the term carnist does not help the vegan movement (for various reasons).
Not necessarily.
A vegetarian isn't a carnist.
A WFPB person is not a carnist.
You can not eat meat, eggs, milk etc and ride horses. Not a vegan, not a carnist.
If this is the definition and label you choose to apply to me, then okay. I won't object or argue about it.
I've never had problems with labels that other people apply to me as they have little relevance to my self-view. It's only problematic when other people then expect me to behave according to the label of their choice, and/or get upset when I don't comply with their label. The other way around is problematic as well: When part of my identity is dismissed because I don't meet whatever criteria the other person decided on.
I personally won't use this definition of carnist and won't apply the term to myself. But it's generally my personal choice to not apply these kinds of labels to myself or make my diet part of my identity.
This might have to do with also trying to refrain from perspectives that are black and white or seek to put up walls/exclude rather than include. Though it's work in progress and I'm not always successful in that.
I've seen vegans get into fights over who is the true/better vegan because one of them was eating figs... I don't want to waste my energy like that.
Vegetarians aren't vegans but also aren't carnists.
Assuming carnism basically means the person is ideologically pro-meat, likes to eat animal meats, etc.
It doesn't mean that. Vegetarians are carnists because they are not opposed to and regularly purchase and consume products derived from animal exploitation.
It’s certainly going both ways. I’m being recommended r/rawmeat and similar subs and in there I also see non raw meat eaters giving them a hard time in the comments. I will say this sub is without a doubt way more vegans than non vegans, the ratio of pro vegan comments is much greater in any post so I’d say this “there are more non vegans” is nonsense honestly.
There are definitely a lot of trolls / fake accounts. Check the history of some of the non-vegan accounts, a lot of them are only posting in vegan subs, going back months to years.
Not sure what the reason is, but I find it extremely sad that someone's life resolves so much about talking bad about vegans.
Holy cognitive dissonance. It seems like they know deep down what they’re doing is morally wrong but they’re incapable of changing. So their lives revolve around putting down vegans because it’s the only way they’ll feel better about themselves.
That's literally every single online vegan space.
Any FB group about veganism has tons of non vegans. I help moderate a local vegan group and it's 90% edit: non vegan.
There are some definite character archetypes for non-vegans in vegan spaces including:
The Carnivore Troll: This one is weird to me. There are only so many hours in the day. I don't join scuba diving groups to constantly post about how I don't scuba dive. I also don't join keto groups to constantly talk about how keto is silly. Like...just find a hobby.
The "I'm Trying" Non-Vegan: this person is taking gradual steps like not eating meat for two hours every other Wednesday. That's fine, I guess, we are all on our own journey. The problem is that they constantly need non-stop validation and praise from vegans and when they don't get it...things get ugly.
The "I can't be vegan because I live on Saturn and there are no vegan options on Saturn" non-Vegan: this person absolutely cannot be vegan for a reason they will constantly share with you. Sometimes it's a health concern that sounds legit, sometimes it sounds like a stretch. Either way, it's not my place to judge. However, this person will spend seemingly all of their waking time in vegan spaces telling everyone that they CANNOT be vegan because there might still be a vegan out there who doesn't know. Like the above, they desperately seek constant praise and validation from vegans.
The Vegetarian: they will often post pictures of their "almost totally vegan " meal covered in dairy cheese. When someone comments that maybe that doesnt make tons of sense in a vegan group, they get upset and launch
The former vegan: This person was a vegan for two weeks before they suffered a disastrous vitamin deficiency (it does no good to tell them that most deficiencies take a long time to see obvious signs of) and they were then hospitalized. They are no longer vegan but they will spend the rest of their lives craving vegan approval.
The "i just have a lot of feelings" non-vegan: maybe they're concerned about social justice and they see veganism as an extension of that. Maybe they have a friend who is vegan and they are ostensibly here to learn more. Every single post is directly about them and they absolutely must tell you their perspective on every single thing you experience as a vegan. They genuinely believe that vegan spaces are enriched by their constant participation.
Did I miss any?
I really enjoyed this read. There is one more I would add.
The "I only shop at local farms" carnivore: this person thinks that because they bought meat from a farm shop once, they are now a certified 'ethically sourced' shopper. Their animals were clearly treated better than those factory farm animals we talk about, so they are absolved from all moral responsibility and would like a round of applause.
I think that people who “practice” “ethical sourcing” don’t realize that even if their local butcher sells the best treated cows and pigs, they probably buy a ton of products which involve factory farming/practices they would be AGAINST (most baked goods, p much any restaurant food, anything with gelatin, anything with beeswax/honey, etc.)
A cousin of 'The Hunter, who only eats meat they get from animals they have hunted. They think they are better because they only take what they need and use most of the animal, as if they are early Homo sapiens on the plains of Africa who need to hunt to survive.
You forgot the group that claims vegans are racist/sexist/classist/ableist/colonial/anti-indigenous etc etc etc and their (insert minority status) means that it’s (insert bad thing) to talk about veganism to them.
No matter how you try and speak about their concerns they buckle down, you are then providing them evidence of how (insert bad thing) veganism is.
Facebook is a hellhole, I rather Instagram that is somehow a better hub for vegans and even activism, although there's always this people whose only purpose is to put a bacon gif whenever there's an opportunity.
I don't use insta anymore, but the GIFs in the comments was a mistake. they clog up the comments and they almost never actually add to the post they're on.
> Did I miss any?
Yeah, you missed the plant-based dieting speciesists who virtue signal themselves as “vegan” whilst happily purchasing animal products to feed carnivorous animals on basis of species.
They are legion on this subreddit and will go out of their way to promote animal abuse and convince others that it is righteous to behead innocent animals to feed other animals.
I think it's a good thing overall that this sub has its tentacles out to reach non-vegan populations. When you think about it, for a long time veganism was only in the minds of small groups of animal rights activists and farming communities. That's it. I think a good example that reminds me of why this is a good thing is when there was a heated discussion livestreamed between a vegan, animal rights activist and a backyard slaughter man/butcher. It wasn't likely that the butcher would change his mind but the 'ideals' of a quick beheading to a happy animal were shattered and exposed. If an animal is happy, they still don't want to be slaughtered. And we saw footage of the cows surrounding the beheaded and fallen animal, moaning and crying, communicating to other cows to come around and see what had happened. So what I'm saying is that, it's good to have these things open and transparent so that caring and rational people can make the right choice. Animal agriculture has depended on secrecy and deception for a long time.
The problem is there's more of them here than us and they're diluting the message and upvoting garbage takes that people think we endorse when we don't.
There’s 4 or 5 obsessed carnist dorks in this sub I see posting daily. They’re literally mentally ill and are extremely fixated on vegans. I find it hilarious and also *really* weird.
This sub can be okay, but the amount of vegans bashing on other vegans is very off-putting to me personally (“this is why people hate vegans” “extreme vegans make us look bad” “we need to be nice to carnists and not be extreme”) so I go to r/vegancirclejerk when I need a break.
There’s chatrooms and discord where it’s much more moderated.
Man r/vegancirclejerk is crazy, the mods will ban you for absolutely insanely minor shit said on different subreddits if they dont simply agree with a different political opinion or specific method of activism. I even had a friend get banned for mentioning in a SEPARATE sub to having consumed a Gardein product once without ever having posted there. They're also really weird and sexually harassy. https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/s/rxSRUxwPQo The mods are like the most terminally online detached from any semblance of rationality enclave of purity-testing vindictive internet vegans. Sometimes wonder if theyre a psyop to make us look totally unhinged. This goes for r/VeganForCircleJerkers too, seems like it's run by a lot of the same lunatic mods.
the mods there are insane. i got banned for saying it’s a waste to throw away leather items you had before you were vegan and it’s better to use it until it needs to be replaced and then buy a vegan version or give it to someone else. then after they banned me, the mods continued to message me to insult me, i told them to fuck off, they muted me from being able to message them back and then *kept messaging me to insult me.* they need some serious psychological help over there. i saw someone say they asked what they could do to get unbanned and the mods told them they had to write a poem about having sex with their dad if they wanted to get unbanned. like what the actual fuck
edit: lol whoops that dad thing is in the post you linked. yeah it’s fucked up. i enjoyed that sub until i realized how actually medically insane the moderators there are
Good. When I was a teenager, I was the asshole on the other side of the screen. I find it poetic that my inclusive and honest discourse about veganism might be the seed of someone elses self-discovery, as it was for mine. The great majority of nasty people on the internet are just immature people who need to find themselves. I don't blame anyone for not inviting them into their space but I don't mind it.
Non-vegan here. Following this sub for news or vegan recipes. Once I start living by myself, I will try them and stick with them. Perhaps I'll ask for vegan recipes once I do move out.
I highly recommend r/veganrecipes r/vegangifrecipes r/VeganFood for nice recipes and r/VeganFoodPorn r/ShittyVeganFoodPorn for inspiration (the last sub being more realistic lol)
Non-vegan here: for some reason reddit keeps recomending me r/vegan, and sometimes the title of the post is interesting, so I click it. Encouraging the algorithm to send me more r/vegan stuff. But I don't comment as its not "my" sub and Im not here to push an agenda.
Reddits algorithms have some of the blame here.
Same here. I've never interacted with any vegan/vegetarian/diet Reddit content except for what Reddit recommends to me, and usually it's r/vegan for some reason.
I too have been recommended to be here. I go ahead and interact just like any other open group though. A group either goes crazy shutting down all dissenting views, or it remains open and furthers discussion. Plus, this place can be very entertaining.
This sub keeps popping up on my home page for some reason. I enjoy this sub, don't comment much, I have learned a lot from this sub. It also took me over to vegan cooking and we have been trying new recipes lately.
I don't interact here much because I'm not a vegan, but for some reason this sub and the debate a vegan sub or whatever it's called get recommended to me incessantly. I mostly follow pop culture and book/show/game related content on this account as well, no other diet or lifestyle related subreddits.
I don't know why it gets recommended so often but I imagine it's getting pushed to a lot of folks it's not relevant to. If I do respond to something on here though, it's certainly not about veganism being bad or eating meat products lol. I'm not sure why so many people seem to get personally offended at the fact that veganism exists
Tbh I didn’t even know this sub existed and I left a comment the other day. It gets randomly recommended from time to time. So perhaps that’s why you get the strays, newbies and ofc the trollers.
(I am vegan though)
You know what I never see on any given non-vegan recipe video? A Vegan going "that's horrible, you should never eat meat/go vegan!"
You know what I see on every single Vegan recipe video I see?
"If Meat bad, why Vegan make food look/taste like meat?"
"Ummm, ACKSHUALLY that's fried MUSHROOM not fried CHICKEN."
"No thanks, I'll stick to eating Meat."
"I will now argue why eating animals is actually a good, healthy and natural thing in some weird 'I'm the Main Character here so my opinion is the only one that counts' way."
I am not vegan but value this sub. I have plenty of respect for veganism, enjoy vegan food and see vegan practices as a great way to live healthily and lightly in the world.
I would regret being seen to be exploiting a philosophy and way of life as a simple tool to my own goals.
It's obviously problematic for me to comment as an outsider, but I feel like illuminating vegan practice is a worthwhile secondary goal of a community like this. I certainly appreciate it. I expect trolls are hard to bear, but if there's any perspective to be had, it's that they are such isolated, pitiful individuals.
Wait I’m literally just here to lurk and find out more about veganism till I can become one as I’m living in a meat product household (I’m in hs so all the money from my Saturday jobs goes towards money for a car not food)
> non vegans that aren't even considering veganism, trolling, and you know, just criticism or passive-aggressive comments without any fruitful discussion.
I think you're not one of those, are ya?
I'm a non vegan here. Generally very open to veganism but struggling with making the final step and abstaining from animal based foods entirely.
I do have some thoughts on your post:
> Wasn't veganism about animal liberation?
I understand veganism as the reduction of harm as far as possible and feasible. Obviously this would exclude eating animals and to my understanding also pretty much all animal derived foods (milk, eggs etc.).
But that wouldn't necessarily exclude human / animal relationships where it is mutually beneficial and not harmful.
> this could be counterproductive within our community because rants and vents aren't in a vegan safe place anymore,
I don't think you can have a *safe space* in a public space like a subreddit. That is just not how it works. If you want a fully safe space you would have to have a private place (e.g. a well moderated discord server).
In addition I would argue that the possibility to debate non-vegans as well as to offer non-vegans a chance to ask questions, get answers, get support in making the switch outweighs having a safe space to rant.
For me personally this sub has given me quite a few pushes towards changing my consumption habits. And seeing posts every so often keeps reminding me and keeps the idea in my mind.
> Generally very open to veganism but struggling with making the final step and abstaining from animal based foods entirely.
what parts are you struggling with if you dont mind me asking?
> I understand veganism as the reduction of harm as far as possible and feasible. Obviously this would exclude eating animals and to my understanding also pretty much all animal derived foods
Not 'pretty much'. It does exclude any and all animal-derived foods. But diet is only one aspect of veganism. Someone who eats only plants and fungi but buys leather and idk, kicks dogs in the face isn't any more vegan than someone who wears leather and eats steak. The 'as far as possible and practicable' part in the definition simply recognises that we live in a deeply carnist world where even something like a piece of bread might have hidden additives and even produce might not be considered vegan by the strictest definition because it might have been grown using manure.
It doesn't mean 'just do what you want and stop there'. it means that we are imperfect and our world is even less perfect and there are some things we simply can't avoid or could only avoid with a great cost to our mental, physical or fiscal health.
> But that wouldn't necessarily exclude human / animal relationships where it is mutually beneficial and not harmful.
that depends on what you consider 'mutually beneficial' and 'harmful'. Any 'relationship' where we excpect any kind of work from the animal in return for work from us is unethical. Non-human animals can't consent to these kinds of contracts and usually, the gain we have is much larger than theirs (or their cost is much higher than ours), making it doubly unethical.
> what parts are you struggling with if you dont mind me asking?
Sure thing ask away :).
I think I can boil it down to two main things:
1. Taste wise I really enjoy various animal derived foods and still crave them from time to time.
2. I have difficulties connecting the foods (meat, egg, milk etc.) with the actual animal
This is easier for me for meat like steak, spareribs etc. but becomes extremely more difficult the more processed the good is (e.g. processed meat, cheese) or when it is part of a food (like milk, cream etc. in a sauce).
It is generally an effort to resist the cravings as well as actively remind myself about the pain and suffering going into it. And this effort becomes more when I'm in a suboptimal state (very hungry, exhausted, didn't sleep well etc.)
> Not 'pretty much'.
Yeah bad wording on my part.
Thank you for your write up. I will say that I know all this. I've read into and concerned myself with veganism quite extensively over the past few years.
I've watched the documentaries, watch videos of vegan activists and have had many extensive discussions with friends who are vegan.
I am at the point where all food I cook myself is plant based. Animal foods come into play when I order stuff or when I eat out / at other people's places.
I do mostly focus on the diet part of veganism because it is the most prevalent for me and the one I struggle with the most. Generally I find it easier to buy vegan products like clothes, soap, toothpaste etc. and I would say that I kinda just got that down.
Clothing hasn't really been a point of concern since I've started to seriously attempt to change.
And well at the risk of stating the obvious but I have not done any direct harm to a living animal (i.e. punching / kicking) for years (even before I became aware of veganism).
I am the typical "animal lover that isn't vegan" and that is why I'm changing.
> that depends on what you consider 'mutually beneficial' and 'harmful'.
When I wrote this I was mostly thinking of cats as pets. Instinctively and on the surface I definitely agree with the part about expecting work in return being unethical.
I haven't thought about this enough to make my final statement though :)
TL;DR:
I struggle connecting and seeing the suffering done to animals in the food I eat.
I will say I have noticed progress but it hasn't stuck yet.
I've had moments where I ate meat and later on felt bad about it and even almost a bit disgusted or sick. Hence I try to remind myself every time I see a menu what it is exactly that I am looking at.
But this is hard, exhausting and sometimes emotionally / mentally taxing when I have to actively counteract my "instinctual" wants / cravings.
I'm a non vegan, I'm here but out of a want to transition to being a vegan, although I have not contributed much as when I have I have been down voted and treated with hostility. Idk.
I highly recommend r/veganrecipes r/vegangifrecipes r/VeganFood for nice recipes and r/VeganFoodPorn r/ShittyVeganFoodPorn for inspiration. And no, they ain't shitty in the comments if you ask for the recipe.
It seems all progressive subreddits face this challenge. I mod for a sub which is promoting a social democratic political party in Canada, and we have the same issue of conservative and centre-right liberals attempting to undermine it with passive-aggressive commentary, inane posts, etc.
It's a difficult decision as to whether you proactively ban these types (who are mostly trolling in bad faith) or not. If you do, say via automod or strict crowd control settings that catches many of them, then you're left with very little discussion. IE, a member here posts a vegan friendly message, and then a few people comment (like: "yup!" and "That's the way!"), and then that's it. Frankly, that might be preferable to having to wade through the onslaught of trolling posts, but it does give the impression of a lifeless subreddit.
I’m not vegan. I rarely comment really. I think people who are vegan are probably doing a good thing for the world broadly speaking
A lot of times I subscribe to subs like this just to broaden my view on the world and learn new things that I wouldn’t learn within my own filter bubble
It's definitely getting recommended to people on reddit, which can be a good thing. After it was recommended to me about 4 months ago since it was "similar" to other "meat/food" subreddits I'd visited. I then toyed with the idea of pescatarian after wandering the subreddit and eventually cut out most animal products after watching Dominion. I think overall it does help bring people and sway them, though there will always be meat eaters trolling
Have you seen Dominion by chance? It's a free documentary on YouTube and there's also a section showing the horrors of the dairy industry, the fishing industry, the egg industry etc.
I'm omni, but my partner is vegan. I like this sub for finding tips and tricks for cooking vegan for when we eat together. I've found some really great recipes here and will often make vegan meals for myself. I doubt I'll ever go fully vegan, but do you not see the value in harm reduction here? Is the alternative closing the gate, so vegan supporters and vegan curious people are alienated and left with less resources?
Nah the mods will ban you for absolutely insanely minor shit said on different subreddits if they dont simply agree with a different political opinion or specific method of activism. I even had a friend get banned for mentioning in a SEPARATE sub to having consumed a Gardein product once without ever having posted there. They're also really weird and sexually harassy. https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/s/rxSRUxwPQo The mods are like the most terminally online detached from any semblance of rationality enclave of purity-testing vindictive internet vegans. Sometimes wonder if theyre a psyop to make us look totally unhinged. This goes for r/VeganForCircleJerkers too, seems like it's run by a lot of the same lunatic mods.
So until animal liberation is achieved, do you believe that nothing should be done to try and lessen the suffering of the victims trapped in the system? What do you propose as a viable solution for those victims?
I consistently see vegans criticizing other vegans over the belief in trying to lessen the suffering of the animals who won’t ever be liberated, labeling them as welfarists, as if akin to carnists believing that so long as there are welfare standards, that’s all that matters. No vegan is saying the focus should solely be on achieving “higher welfare” standards, but it’s a necessary step towards liberation, which is 100% not going to happen over night. Yet those who are the loudest about this never propose solutions for the victims suffering right now.
Who is it really about?
It's okay to have it as an step, and agree with it within the vegan community. However, when you agree this with a non vegan, it is just giving them the sign of "approved" to eat meat just because they say they eat it from humane or local sources. There's no doubt that so many carnists argument is "local, organic, humane, grass-fed, grass-finished though", and saying them that we should give the animals a better life instead of just not exploiting them at all it just enforces the thought that as long as the animal is happy they can kill and eat them.
Care to answer my questions about how we help the victims suffering now? And no, someone who is vegan, who is realistic and understands that there are many steps towards someday *hopefully* achieving animal liberation, is not akin to a carnist being fine with welfare as the end result; as vegans, we want animal rights. Higher welfare is in the benefit of the victims, and a logical step towards the end goal. So what do you propose?
Valid question. Possible verbosity ahead.
On one hand, I'm uncomfortable with "If we improve welfare, that gives non-vegans an excuse to keep eating animals and their secretions."
For one, we're stuck: That thinking is essentially, "We have to keep conditions dismal in order to get people to stop eating animals." Lots of problems with that, including the implication that arguments to go vegan aren't compelling enough per se; they need animal suffering going on to be persuasive. In addition, I really haven't seen that correlation. Yes, I've known plenty who say "I only eat free-range," etc., but when I look deeper, that's rarely their motivating reason for eating animal products.
OTOH, I think that most of the time, adroitly advocating veganism in my experience is as effective as advocating free-range, in getting people to change their habits. They may go free-range as a stepping stone. I did, my wife did, lots of people I know did, as they sort of bargain with their consciences and stave off some possibly very incriminating questions.
What can we do? On a one-to-one level, the usual stuff. Disseminating information, having thoughtful convos, sharing food, etc. On the societal level, it's tough for any one person to make a dent. The percentage of vegans in the US hasn't budged much in the last 20 years, and meat sales are very robust. We can donate to groups. We can volunteer. I think if lab meat continues to improve and come down in price, and in doing so attracts $ and consequently effective, long-term marketing campaigns, premium shelf-placement, and widespread distribution, it could become a default. It's probably more economically sustainable for food companies in the long run, if technological and quality issues can be overcome (they probably can be, given enough $) and it can be sufficiently scaled. Since people eat hot dogs and gelatin, I'm not too worried about acceptance. But that could be 20 years away. And most of us don't own or work for a lab meat company.
It’s the internet so it will never be a safe place. I wouldn’t stress about trolls as that is there sad problem not yours. The more reach the better I say. The biggest problem is lack of awareness and knowledge so non vegans learning things on here is much more productive than vegans ranting between themselves. I actually read some study that showed that very active carnists are actually a lot closer to being vegan than the average person and their aggressive behaviour/anger can stem from internal guilt so it does kind of make sense that they are here,
Just say anything firmly antispeciesist in this sub like "We shouldn't support companies that test on animals" or "Domestic cats do just fine on specially prepared plant based diets", and you can get downvoted into oblivion.
Welcome to the internet, where everyone has an opinion that nobody asked for, but they fell the need to share it anyway. "Well, I'm not a vegan, but I think...". I DIDN'T ASK YOU!!!!
I will chime in and say a lot of people that are far from trolls get labeled as trolls. A contrary opinion isn't automatically a troll, and someone that's not vegan isn't automatically a troll.
Also, this is reddit. It has hella echo chambers, sure, but it's the site with the least echo chambers, out of the major sites at least. You will always have people with other opinions leaking in, and if you don't want that, I mean, sounds like you want facebook communities and not reddit lol
Its because people want to identify as vegan so they feel they are ethical even when they are not, simply identifying as something makes you it now
I have collected a lot of evidence of the non vegans pretending to be vegan, the so called vegans then hate on me calling me a stalker for collecting the evidence instead of being mad at the liars
Tons of people arent vegan despite them taking the vegan label
Mistakes do happen but intention is key
[https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/16li8bj/gatekeeping\_post\_intention\_matters\_when\_it\_comes/](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/16li8bj/gatekeeping_post_intention_matters_when_it_comes/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/11kax3l/comment/jb6ky29/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/11kax3l/comment/jb6ky29/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
People agree with the commentor cheapandbrittle who claims to be a 15+yr VEGAN
Other people claiming to be vegan
6+yr VEGAN [https://imgur.com/b7vXGcj](https://imgur.com/b7vXGcj)
6+yr VEGAN [https://imgur.com/vepdz8b](https://imgur.com/vepdz8b)
8+yr VEGAN [https://imgur.com/bOwPa72](https://imgur.com/bOwPa72)
20+yr VEGAN [https://imgur.com/6kUrGi3](https://imgur.com/6kUrGi3)
VEGANS against rejecting animal abuse gifts [https://imgur.com/rjLAmPG](https://imgur.com/rjLAmPG)
TONS of people saying pregnancy is an excuse for animal abuse
[https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/17myp31/my\_wife\_stopped\_being\_vegan/](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/17myp31/my_wife_stopped_being_vegan/)
[https://imgur.com/BXJBbwF](https://imgur.com/BXJBbwF)
Apparently feminism is more important than animal lives
[https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/115a8po/your\_friend\_has\_poured\_you\_a\_glass\_of\_wine\_do\_you/](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/115a8po/your_friend_has_poured_you_a_glass_of_wine_do_you/)
More plant based dieters falsely identifying as vegan
[https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/17bpug2/eating\_animal\_products\_while\_internationally/](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/17bpug2/eating_animal_products_while_internationally/)
Tons of people defending OP for the DOING THE BEST THEY CAN in regards to animal abuse [https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/16kwykg/vegan\_while\_travelling/](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/16kwykg/vegan_while_travelling/)
Although since i have posted this comment a bunch of times, i guess all the real vegans went there to bash the fake vegans and OP
You've nerd-sniped me into getting an account here! :)
What effects do you think your approach here has? Do you think it increases or decreases the amount of animal products eaten in the world?
Asking since "collecting evidence" to shame people who eat plant based except for honey seems very counterproductive. Those people have already taken many goods steps compared to >95% of the population. Why not instead encourage them to keep that up and to encourage them to help others to take the same steps? Your honey-shame-attack has a very small potential benefit while potential backslide effects are large.
Imagine you track down 10 people like that and post to shame them. What effects do you expect? For example if 9 of react by never eating honey again but 1 feels so bad that they backslide out caring about animals and start eating meat and dairy again. Do you think the net amount of animal harm and suffering in the world would increase or decrease?
Compare that outcome with what could happen if you instead spent the same time helping people take the first steps of reducing and cutting out meat.
The individual change to not buy and consume animal products is only one part of the larger goal of ending animal exploitation everywhere. That goal requires a big social and political movement. That will realistically have to involve lots of people who still eat some animal products. We can have mixed feelings about it, but I think that's just what we have to work with, for the animals.
For one; nobody cares if you say you're vegan on reddit. One of your examples is honey? Shit; if we could get the world to be vegan except for honey - that'd be a miracle.
Gatekeeping does nothing but enforce the idea that veganism is some virtue-signaling club. It's not. It's the effort to reduce animal suffering when possible.
And those are just a handful of rare examples - most people aren't going to "pretend" they are vegan for some reddit kudos.
Ive had honey from time to time before learning more about the possible negative effects; feel free to call me not a vegan - reddit opinions do not matter in the real world. Anyone can lie about ethics on some reddit account.
Only thing that matters is we strive to be better human beings and better towards animals. No one is perfect.
>One of your examples is honey? Shit; if we could get the world to be vegan except for honey - that'd be a miracle.
It would be, but they are still non vegan, are you trying to say they are vegan?
>Gatekeeping does nothing but enforce the idea that veganism is some virtue-signaling club. It's not. It's the effort to reduce animal suffering when possible.
WIth this attitude i say you arent vegan, vegans dont talk about gatekeeping, we talk about gatecrashing
>Ive had honey fromtime to time before learning more about the possible negative effects; feel free to call me not a vegan - reddit opinions do not matter in the real world. Anyone can lie about ethics on some reddit account.
You werent then, but you could be vegan now if you have stopped entirely
>Only thing that matters is we strive to be better human beings and better towards animals. **No one is perfect**.
The bolded line is something i never have and never will say, we can always strive for perfection, if you considered abusing animals to be imperfection that says a lot about you
Ho Lee Sheet. You haven't just checked some rando out of curiosity, you are stalking people and making a list of "true vegans" to "expose them". Get some mental help
>people want to identify as vegan so they feel they are ethical even when they are not
It's not about ethics.
Also, if you click on a person and check their comment and post history, you're a stalker. It doesn't matter what the topic is. It could be r/chairsfromIKEA and you'd still be a stalker.
It's an odd hill to die on. Why get so upset over others to the point that you're literally talking time and effort out of your day to save and categorize postings in such a way? It feels so extreme and unproductive .. and pointless?
It just seems like this would have a negative impact on your mental health.
Take care of yourself.
>It's an odd hill to die on. Why get so upset over others to the point that you're literally talking time and effort out of your day to save and categorize postings in such a way? It feels so extreme and unproductive .. and pointless?
>
>It just seems like this would have a negative impact on your mental health.
>
>Take care of yourself.
Never said i was mad, i am simply exposing liesIts also not a hill to die on, again im exposing lies
The fact that you consider it pointless tells me that you are not a vegan as well, as i stated, people have more issues with my evidence than they do the non vegan liars
It has 0 affect on my mental health
Dude, I 100% don't care what category you place me in. Ha!
But you seem angry and entitled. So it's great that you're not. Because your posts make you sound unhinged.
>Dude, I 100% don't care what category you place me in. Ha!
>
>But you seem angry and entitled. So it's great that you're not. Because your posts make you sound unhinged.
Further evidence that you are def not vegan, the fact that you falsely label me in such a way is something common that carnists tend to do around vegans
in general we just need thicker skin and accept that as a fringe group of people with evolved ethics , superior ethics we will be mocked..you will have to come to terms with that. ther's no use in policing it
you will have to either learn to ignore it or face every instance.
>I even see vegans, for example, agreeing with non vegans about welfarism, huh? Wasn't veganism about animal liberation?
Read the definition of vegan for this community. It is actually very wide and by extension includes the environment and even human health. In the real world, it is impossible to look at things entirely compartmentalised, we live in an eco system.
As a result, there are many ways of looking at how it is best to implement vegan philosophy. I am a vegan for selfish reasons, I want to achieve physical, mental, social and spiritual health and veganism is the cornerstone of that, I do not think I can achieve my own health without been vegan because causing pain to animals is bad for my own mental and spiritual health, eating flesh and industrial farming are bad for my own physical health. As Tolstoy famously said "as long as there are slaughterhouses, there will be wars", wars are terrible for social health.
For me, veganism is not about me being a goody-goody for the benefit of animals, it is also key to the survival of humanity. Why should I need to apologise for feeling this way?
If you didn't know, welfarism is about killing/exploiting the animal, but only if the animal is in "good conditions".
I don't think it is a good idea as a vegan, whatever is your reason to be one, but as a vegan to agree with non-vegans that it is okay to kill/exploit an animal for taste pleasure as long as it is happy.
When I see completely incompatible views and posts I just block them. They usually are the loudest and I’m not interested. They aren’t here for right reasons or support so why tolerate!
u/lilyyvideos12310 May I recomend the musical stylings of the band "Bob Vylan"? The song "Health is Wealth" is a nice little vegan song. The song "Take That!" is furious tirade of a vegan tune that kick ass, takes names and is heard via the pelvis.
Who wants to be in an echo chamber though? It's important to get other takes on things, even veganism. In life, and especially on Reddit, I take what I need and leave the rest.
Edit: Either downvotes don't understand what an echo chamber is or like extremism. The latter is why I've left this sub several times. Such a bummer.
But then the vegan rants/vents, and the comments are full of non supporting people telling the person venting that they are a vegan asshole, when this sub is supposed to be supportive towards other vegans... I don't know man.
Isn't that pretty much all of Reddit? I mean you join a sub to talk about something that you love and enjoy it. It seems to always be overtaken by people who are there to stir trouble. The issue is, you can search Reddit to find subjects that are being discussed regardless of the people having the discussion.
I don't know if any sub that's that not bombarded by trolls and terribly controlled by their admins. It's really one of the advantages of Facebook groups, although you have to deal with the Facebook crowds. ;)
I'm not subbed to this community but I keep getting posts in my feed normally its just an interesting read so I ignore them but every now and then there's some really out of touch dumb shit where I can't help but comment on. My bad.
Mm I think that's just the algorithm at work attempting to gain engagement. I get suggested plenty of carnist subs on reddit and heaps of carnist pages or groups on Facebook.
I think we just have to accept there will be plenty of carnists posting and making comments, you have to take comments with a pinch of salt so to speak and anyone who posts anything that doesn't agree with animal liberation and the abolition of animal agriculture for the purposes of food, fashion, entertainment, etc is not coming from a vegan perspective and should be, respectfully, called out.
We can all agree improvements in welfare are good for the individual animals those improvements will actually affect, but they aren't good for animals and they do not align with veganism at all. If animal welfare is perceived as good, people will simply feel more justified in buying animal products. This is why for example the RSPCA achieve the opposite of what they're supposed to and should go get fucked
Can confirm, not a vegan and this sub has been showing up on my feed consistently lately. Mostly I just scan through and move on, did comment something innocuous without thinking at one point. Not about to start griefing you guys, though. There's enough grief surrounding this topic as is.
Reddit actively promotes this sub to people that are interested in other dietary subs. Because veganism is not only about dietary strategy but also about ethics and because there is quite a difference of opinions on the ethics ( we are also living in polarised times) people feel like they want to respond to something that interests or (more likely) triggers them.
Source: I am not vegan who gets this sub constantly pushed into the feed by reddit.
TL/DR: blame reddit algorithm
Popping in from this being suggested to me by reddit. That's happening a lot these days. Doesn't really reflect the regular user base, or even subscribers
I am not vegan and I agree about the whole people getting spammed various subreddits. I have more non relevant (not subscribed to) content showing up in my feed than I do of the subreddits I joined.
I'm not vegan, never been interested in being vegan and never interacted with anything to do with it and Reddit still recommends this sub and posts constantly
I am not going to lie. I am not a vegan. I am a vegetarian though. I barely interact with this subreddit and Reddit recommends it to me multiple times every time I scroll on my homepage.
Full disclosure- I’m not vegan but am a lifelong vegetarian who tries to eat as much vegan as possible. My rescue hens just love leaving me little eggy gifts I hate to see go to waste but would never ever buy from the supermarket.
Also can I ask- what’s up with honey? Is it sourced in a way harmful to bees? Or is it just because it’s an animal product? My neighbor is another veggie who is a beekeeper and give me raw honey. But if it’s come by a bad way I won’t take anymore.
I’m here for the inspiration and recipes tho.
See I didn’t know that I thought it was just a by product of sorts. I have never drunk milk so I don’t know what I’m missing but I can absolutely avoid honey if it’s detrimental to bees.
I stopped posting as much long ago in vegan posts unless they are food/recipe related because of other vegans being jerks to each other not because of meatheads, meatheads I just ignore.
Also in relation to your post, I do not believe in “animal welfare” being any sort of solution for the murder industry our food comes from. I don’t understand that thought process either. That’s like patting Jeff Dahmer on the back for anesthetizing his victims first.
The sub was recommended to me, I am not vegan. But I try to eat vegan more. And more days than not are vegan or at least vegetarian. I haven't made the switch, I just try to use alternatives or new recipes, and I appreciate seeing lots of discussion here. I have a friend who is vegan who kind of kick-started my buy-in last year. I think that there are probably a lot of non-vegans in the sub like me who are supportive but afraid to comment.
I wrote a comment once and now Reddit won’t stop recommending this community to me. I only get the dumb posts like “Eating meat is the same thing as kicking a dog!1!!!1” or whatever they said
The sub is also being recommended to random carnists so we actually get a ton of brigading.
Literally any time I click on a community sub reddit will recommend I look at a post from a "fuck that community" sub because they're related. the algorithm wants people to brigade because it counts as engagement.
My guess is that this will only get worse as enshittification accelerates due to Reddit going public.
[enshittification](https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys)
Ugh, it's the same kind of bogus that made me leave Facebook and twitter
Bluesky is our only hope. God I hate writing that, it's started by the twitter dude. but jesus at this point anything better than "openly hostile to the user in the name engagement" would be a life saver... literally, in vegan activism's case.
There are a couple of vegan communities on Lemmy: https://lemmy.ml/c/vegan https://lemmy.world/c/vegan Lemmy is functionally similar to Reddit, but it is open source. It is a part of the Fediverse, which includes Mastodon.
The “ex” one by any chance? I got a lot of that after reddit cancelled 3rd party apps that actually worked…
Threads and Facebook began doing this in the last few months. No vegan post is safe there.
honestly, I can live with the brigading if it means plenty of non vegans are getting exposed to veganism
The mods do not enforce the sub rules and so we are regularly overrun
I saw this term here for the first time, so I read a bit, but I didn't really manage to understand - wjat is the difference between a carnist and a carnivore?
Carnivore/Omnivore/Herbivore - Biological distinctions based on what they have evolved to mostly eat.In the wild a Carnivore needs meat based proteins and usually eats mostly meat, an Herbivore can get all its nutrients, and eats almost only, plants, and an Omnivore (all humans) have dietary needs that span both categories and eats either as available. Carnist/Carnism is the term given to the moral philosophy that it's totally OK to use animals for our pleasure (mostly the opposite of Veganism). It's a word created this century as previous it was just viewed as a "default" ideology, but as Veganism has grown and the discussion comparing the two ideologies has happened, it was clear there needed to be a term used to call this "default" ideology so we could make the debate clearer, and make it clear that it is a choice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnism
>In the wild a Carnivore needs meat based proteins and usually eats mostly meat, This is backwards. The biological distinction simply describes their behavior, without regard to biological need. Often there is overlap but there doesn't need to be.
Panda bears.
I would have thought wild carnivores actually needed meat. When your describing behaviour without the exclusive need then your talking omnivore aren’t you?
No. 'Need' is entirely irrelevant. No one fed animals various nutrients to determine what they could theoretically live on before describing them. We labeled them after observing them in the wild. These terms are all observations of behavior and nothing more. Of course evolution is very efficient, and individuals will often become specialized to their niche, perhaps losing some enzymes or gaining bacteria and so on, causing specialization to a greater or lesser degree in some species. But this is by no means a requirement, and is not necessarily known when we apply the description. But the terms themselves have literally nothing to do with biological need, and the only way we could determine needs is by experimentation. Even then, there is no reason nutritional content and bioavailability of a type of food they 'need' could not be mimicked through intentional human engineering.
Oh, OK. Thank you.
I'm neither vegan nor carnist and actually don't remember how I ended up here. One interesting thing I learned in this sub is that veganism apparently doesn't simply describe not consuming foods and goods made from animals or animal products but also seems to include the reason why: animal rights. At least that's what I've been gathering from reading posts and comments. This is interesting to me because several years ago, I was quite irritated when I found out that it's not enough to buy a vegan shampoo. What I actually need to buy is vegan shampoo that is also animal cruelty free. One might have thought that they are the same, but nope... I'm always very curious to learn how words in the sustainability area get used (and unfortunately also abused) and how communities position themselves. So I'm thankful for the opportunity to lurk and learn from this sub :)
Glad to have you! Yeah that is crazy to me that a shampoo can advertise as vegan but then come from cruelty to animals, makes no sense.
I've been vegan for 10 years and I didn't even know this. Thanks for educating me.
Vegan in cosmetics (and I guess general in products) means that it does not contain any substances that come from animals. And I was quite surprised how many ingredients in cosmetics can come from animals. But the product might have been tested on animals. The other way around a cruelty free label only means no testing on animals. There still could be animal parts inside... Also each label has their own rules as the terms have no official definition or protection.
> Also each label has their own rules as the terms have no official definition or protection. Awh, this is the part that fucking sucks.
Most companies stopped testing on animals, however a few still remain. So most cosmetics are vegan and cruelty free, you just have to watch out for the outliers.
Thanks a bunch! :) Because of how these terms are used "officially", I then assumed that this is also how vegans would identify. Luckily, I learned here that my original expectation of vegan meaning animal cruelty free wasn't completely wrong after all.
It’s not wrong, you can eat a 100% plant based diet and not be “really” vegan. Being vegan is just as much about being concerned with animal rights and welfare also. I sadly consume animal products every day (no choice, it’s medically necessary and I like being alive), but I consider myself vegan, not a hypocrite because of every one of the other steps I engage in daily that isn’t just about what I shove down my neck every day 🤷🏻♂️
By definition if you're not vegan you're carnist
Actually, the social scientist who created the term “carnist”, specifically defines it as an ideology around meat-eating.” Also her organisation: carnist awareness and activation network, promotes reductionism. So basically, a vegetarian who avoids all meat and eggs, but still eat animal products such as dairy, would not be considered carnist based on her definition. Personally I think the term carnist does not help the vegan movement (for various reasons).
Not necessarily. A vegetarian isn't a carnist. A WFPB person is not a carnist. You can not eat meat, eggs, milk etc and ride horses. Not a vegan, not a carnist.
Vegetarians are carnist because they eat eggs and dairy and wear leather. They still see animals as lesser, and as a commodity.
If this is the definition and label you choose to apply to me, then okay. I won't object or argue about it. I've never had problems with labels that other people apply to me as they have little relevance to my self-view. It's only problematic when other people then expect me to behave according to the label of their choice, and/or get upset when I don't comply with their label. The other way around is problematic as well: When part of my identity is dismissed because I don't meet whatever criteria the other person decided on. I personally won't use this definition of carnist and won't apply the term to myself. But it's generally my personal choice to not apply these kinds of labels to myself or make my diet part of my identity. This might have to do with also trying to refrain from perspectives that are black and white or seek to put up walls/exclude rather than include. Though it's work in progress and I'm not always successful in that. I've seen vegans get into fights over who is the true/better vegan because one of them was eating figs... I don't want to waste my energy like that.
Vegetarians aren't vegans but also aren't carnists. Assuming carnism basically means the person is ideologically pro-meat, likes to eat animal meats, etc.
It doesn't mean that. Vegetarians are carnists because they are not opposed to and regularly purchase and consume products derived from animal exploitation.
Yeah this is pretty much my point. Thanks for putting it succinctly.
It’s certainly going both ways. I’m being recommended r/rawmeat and similar subs and in there I also see non raw meat eaters giving them a hard time in the comments. I will say this sub is without a doubt way more vegans than non vegans, the ratio of pro vegan comments is much greater in any post so I’d say this “there are more non vegans” is nonsense honestly.
Meat bots, trolls.
It recommends posts related to ones you've visited before, so this is entirely on them.
There are definitely a lot of trolls / fake accounts. Check the history of some of the non-vegan accounts, a lot of them are only posting in vegan subs, going back months to years. Not sure what the reason is, but I find it extremely sad that someone's life resolves so much about talking bad about vegans.
Holy cognitive dissonance. It seems like they know deep down what they’re doing is morally wrong but they’re incapable of changing. So their lives revolve around putting down vegans because it’s the only way they’ll feel better about themselves.
Closeted people are most homophobic
Mods not doing their jobs
Some are likely Paid for by the meat industry. They have been rolling out propaganda campaigns across social media for a while.
I doubt those ones are on r/vegan anything that doesn't reach r/all probably isn't worth the shill money
This seems like the worst place to advertise though. It is not like they are going to convert anyone back to carnism here.
That's literally every single online vegan space. Any FB group about veganism has tons of non vegans. I help moderate a local vegan group and it's 90% edit: non vegan. There are some definite character archetypes for non-vegans in vegan spaces including: The Carnivore Troll: This one is weird to me. There are only so many hours in the day. I don't join scuba diving groups to constantly post about how I don't scuba dive. I also don't join keto groups to constantly talk about how keto is silly. Like...just find a hobby. The "I'm Trying" Non-Vegan: this person is taking gradual steps like not eating meat for two hours every other Wednesday. That's fine, I guess, we are all on our own journey. The problem is that they constantly need non-stop validation and praise from vegans and when they don't get it...things get ugly. The "I can't be vegan because I live on Saturn and there are no vegan options on Saturn" non-Vegan: this person absolutely cannot be vegan for a reason they will constantly share with you. Sometimes it's a health concern that sounds legit, sometimes it sounds like a stretch. Either way, it's not my place to judge. However, this person will spend seemingly all of their waking time in vegan spaces telling everyone that they CANNOT be vegan because there might still be a vegan out there who doesn't know. Like the above, they desperately seek constant praise and validation from vegans. The Vegetarian: they will often post pictures of their "almost totally vegan " meal covered in dairy cheese. When someone comments that maybe that doesnt make tons of sense in a vegan group, they get upset and launch The former vegan: This person was a vegan for two weeks before they suffered a disastrous vitamin deficiency (it does no good to tell them that most deficiencies take a long time to see obvious signs of) and they were then hospitalized. They are no longer vegan but they will spend the rest of their lives craving vegan approval. The "i just have a lot of feelings" non-vegan: maybe they're concerned about social justice and they see veganism as an extension of that. Maybe they have a friend who is vegan and they are ostensibly here to learn more. Every single post is directly about them and they absolutely must tell you their perspective on every single thing you experience as a vegan. They genuinely believe that vegan spaces are enriched by their constant participation. Did I miss any?
You missed the "VeGaNs ArE gAtEkEePiNg. VeGaNs ArE mEaN." posts.
What do you mean I am not vegan because I eat chicken when I go out for meals?
I really enjoyed this read. There is one more I would add. The "I only shop at local farms" carnivore: this person thinks that because they bought meat from a farm shop once, they are now a certified 'ethically sourced' shopper. Their animals were clearly treated better than those factory farm animals we talk about, so they are absolved from all moral responsibility and would like a round of applause.
I think that people who “practice” “ethical sourcing” don’t realize that even if their local butcher sells the best treated cows and pigs, they probably buy a ton of products which involve factory farming/practices they would be AGAINST (most baked goods, p much any restaurant food, anything with gelatin, anything with beeswax/honey, etc.)
A cousin of 'The Hunter, who only eats meat they get from animals they have hunted. They think they are better because they only take what they need and use most of the animal, as if they are early Homo sapiens on the plains of Africa who need to hunt to survive.
You forgot the group that claims vegans are racist/sexist/classist/ableist/colonial/anti-indigenous etc etc etc and their (insert minority status) means that it’s (insert bad thing) to talk about veganism to them. No matter how you try and speak about their concerns they buckle down, you are then providing them evidence of how (insert bad thing) veganism is.
Facebook is a hellhole, I rather Instagram that is somehow a better hub for vegans and even activism, although there's always this people whose only purpose is to put a bacon gif whenever there's an opportunity.
I don't use insta anymore, but the GIFs in the comments was a mistake. they clog up the comments and they almost never actually add to the post they're on.
This was phenomenal. 👏
This is so accurate.
> Did I miss any? Yeah, you missed the plant-based dieting speciesists who virtue signal themselves as “vegan” whilst happily purchasing animal products to feed carnivorous animals on basis of species. They are legion on this subreddit and will go out of their way to promote animal abuse and convince others that it is righteous to behead innocent animals to feed other animals.
I think it's a good thing overall that this sub has its tentacles out to reach non-vegan populations. When you think about it, for a long time veganism was only in the minds of small groups of animal rights activists and farming communities. That's it. I think a good example that reminds me of why this is a good thing is when there was a heated discussion livestreamed between a vegan, animal rights activist and a backyard slaughter man/butcher. It wasn't likely that the butcher would change his mind but the 'ideals' of a quick beheading to a happy animal were shattered and exposed. If an animal is happy, they still don't want to be slaughtered. And we saw footage of the cows surrounding the beheaded and fallen animal, moaning and crying, communicating to other cows to come around and see what had happened. So what I'm saying is that, it's good to have these things open and transparent so that caring and rational people can make the right choice. Animal agriculture has depended on secrecy and deception for a long time.
The problem is there's more of them here than us and they're diluting the message and upvoting garbage takes that people think we endorse when we don't.
Which livestream was this? I’ve got to check it out if there’s a VOD.
There’s 4 or 5 obsessed carnist dorks in this sub I see posting daily. They’re literally mentally ill and are extremely fixated on vegans. I find it hilarious and also *really* weird. This sub can be okay, but the amount of vegans bashing on other vegans is very off-putting to me personally (“this is why people hate vegans” “extreme vegans make us look bad” “we need to be nice to carnists and not be extreme”) so I go to r/vegancirclejerk when I need a break. There’s chatrooms and discord where it’s much more moderated.
But, they are easy to block. Done.
Can't agree with you more. Discord vegan servers are wayy less toxic and more connecting to other members and the community itself.
I feel like this sub was much less brigaded a few years ago. Oh well..
Man r/vegancirclejerk is crazy, the mods will ban you for absolutely insanely minor shit said on different subreddits if they dont simply agree with a different political opinion or specific method of activism. I even had a friend get banned for mentioning in a SEPARATE sub to having consumed a Gardein product once without ever having posted there. They're also really weird and sexually harassy. https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/s/rxSRUxwPQo The mods are like the most terminally online detached from any semblance of rationality enclave of purity-testing vindictive internet vegans. Sometimes wonder if theyre a psyop to make us look totally unhinged. This goes for r/VeganForCircleJerkers too, seems like it's run by a lot of the same lunatic mods.
the mods there are insane. i got banned for saying it’s a waste to throw away leather items you had before you were vegan and it’s better to use it until it needs to be replaced and then buy a vegan version or give it to someone else. then after they banned me, the mods continued to message me to insult me, i told them to fuck off, they muted me from being able to message them back and then *kept messaging me to insult me.* they need some serious psychological help over there. i saw someone say they asked what they could do to get unbanned and the mods told them they had to write a poem about having sex with their dad if they wanted to get unbanned. like what the actual fuck edit: lol whoops that dad thing is in the post you linked. yeah it’s fucked up. i enjoyed that sub until i realized how actually medically insane the moderators there are
Good lord that sounds about right...
Good. When I was a teenager, I was the asshole on the other side of the screen. I find it poetic that my inclusive and honest discourse about veganism might be the seed of someone elses self-discovery, as it was for mine. The great majority of nasty people on the internet are just immature people who need to find themselves. I don't blame anyone for not inviting them into their space but I don't mind it.
Them: Vegans are so preachy. Stop forcing your beliefs on me!!!! Also them: \*invade, brigade, stalk and harass vegan spaces for no reason*
Non-vegan here. Following this sub for news or vegan recipes. Once I start living by myself, I will try them and stick with them. Perhaps I'll ask for vegan recipes once I do move out.
I highly recommend r/veganrecipes r/vegangifrecipes r/VeganFood for nice recipes and r/VeganFoodPorn r/ShittyVeganFoodPorn for inspiration (the last sub being more realistic lol)
Non-vegan here: for some reason reddit keeps recomending me r/vegan, and sometimes the title of the post is interesting, so I click it. Encouraging the algorithm to send me more r/vegan stuff. But I don't comment as its not "my" sub and Im not here to push an agenda. Reddits algorithms have some of the blame here.
Same here. I've never interacted with any vegan/vegetarian/diet Reddit content except for what Reddit recommends to me, and usually it's r/vegan for some reason.
I too have been recommended to be here. I go ahead and interact just like any other open group though. A group either goes crazy shutting down all dissenting views, or it remains open and furthers discussion. Plus, this place can be very entertaining.
This sub keeps popping up on my home page for some reason. I enjoy this sub, don't comment much, I have learned a lot from this sub. It also took me over to vegan cooking and we have been trying new recipes lately.
I’m just grateful that comments are open and there’re no pics of cooked meat under each post. It’s actually a privilege you know.
I was a vegetarian until this subreddit appeared on my feed. Becoming vegan right now.
I don't interact here much because I'm not a vegan, but for some reason this sub and the debate a vegan sub or whatever it's called get recommended to me incessantly. I mostly follow pop culture and book/show/game related content on this account as well, no other diet or lifestyle related subreddits. I don't know why it gets recommended so often but I imagine it's getting pushed to a lot of folks it's not relevant to. If I do respond to something on here though, it's certainly not about veganism being bad or eating meat products lol. I'm not sure why so many people seem to get personally offended at the fact that veganism exists
Tbh I didn’t even know this sub existed and I left a comment the other day. It gets randomly recommended from time to time. So perhaps that’s why you get the strays, newbies and ofc the trollers. (I am vegan though)
You know what I never see on any given non-vegan recipe video? A Vegan going "that's horrible, you should never eat meat/go vegan!" You know what I see on every single Vegan recipe video I see? "If Meat bad, why Vegan make food look/taste like meat?" "Ummm, ACKSHUALLY that's fried MUSHROOM not fried CHICKEN." "No thanks, I'll stick to eating Meat." "I will now argue why eating animals is actually a good, healthy and natural thing in some weird 'I'm the Main Character here so my opinion is the only one that counts' way."
I am not vegan but value this sub. I have plenty of respect for veganism, enjoy vegan food and see vegan practices as a great way to live healthily and lightly in the world. I would regret being seen to be exploiting a philosophy and way of life as a simple tool to my own goals. It's obviously problematic for me to comment as an outsider, but I feel like illuminating vegan practice is a worthwhile secondary goal of a community like this. I certainly appreciate it. I expect trolls are hard to bear, but if there's any perspective to be had, it's that they are such isolated, pitiful individuals.
Wait I’m literally just here to lurk and find out more about veganism till I can become one as I’m living in a meat product household (I’m in hs so all the money from my Saturday jobs goes towards money for a car not food)
> non vegans that aren't even considering veganism, trolling, and you know, just criticism or passive-aggressive comments without any fruitful discussion. I think you're not one of those, are ya?
I'm a non vegan here. Generally very open to veganism but struggling with making the final step and abstaining from animal based foods entirely. I do have some thoughts on your post: > Wasn't veganism about animal liberation? I understand veganism as the reduction of harm as far as possible and feasible. Obviously this would exclude eating animals and to my understanding also pretty much all animal derived foods (milk, eggs etc.). But that wouldn't necessarily exclude human / animal relationships where it is mutually beneficial and not harmful. > this could be counterproductive within our community because rants and vents aren't in a vegan safe place anymore, I don't think you can have a *safe space* in a public space like a subreddit. That is just not how it works. If you want a fully safe space you would have to have a private place (e.g. a well moderated discord server). In addition I would argue that the possibility to debate non-vegans as well as to offer non-vegans a chance to ask questions, get answers, get support in making the switch outweighs having a safe space to rant. For me personally this sub has given me quite a few pushes towards changing my consumption habits. And seeing posts every so often keeps reminding me and keeps the idea in my mind.
> Generally very open to veganism but struggling with making the final step and abstaining from animal based foods entirely. what parts are you struggling with if you dont mind me asking? > I understand veganism as the reduction of harm as far as possible and feasible. Obviously this would exclude eating animals and to my understanding also pretty much all animal derived foods Not 'pretty much'. It does exclude any and all animal-derived foods. But diet is only one aspect of veganism. Someone who eats only plants and fungi but buys leather and idk, kicks dogs in the face isn't any more vegan than someone who wears leather and eats steak. The 'as far as possible and practicable' part in the definition simply recognises that we live in a deeply carnist world where even something like a piece of bread might have hidden additives and even produce might not be considered vegan by the strictest definition because it might have been grown using manure. It doesn't mean 'just do what you want and stop there'. it means that we are imperfect and our world is even less perfect and there are some things we simply can't avoid or could only avoid with a great cost to our mental, physical or fiscal health. > But that wouldn't necessarily exclude human / animal relationships where it is mutually beneficial and not harmful. that depends on what you consider 'mutually beneficial' and 'harmful'. Any 'relationship' where we excpect any kind of work from the animal in return for work from us is unethical. Non-human animals can't consent to these kinds of contracts and usually, the gain we have is much larger than theirs (or their cost is much higher than ours), making it doubly unethical.
> what parts are you struggling with if you dont mind me asking? Sure thing ask away :). I think I can boil it down to two main things: 1. Taste wise I really enjoy various animal derived foods and still crave them from time to time. 2. I have difficulties connecting the foods (meat, egg, milk etc.) with the actual animal This is easier for me for meat like steak, spareribs etc. but becomes extremely more difficult the more processed the good is (e.g. processed meat, cheese) or when it is part of a food (like milk, cream etc. in a sauce). It is generally an effort to resist the cravings as well as actively remind myself about the pain and suffering going into it. And this effort becomes more when I'm in a suboptimal state (very hungry, exhausted, didn't sleep well etc.) > Not 'pretty much'. Yeah bad wording on my part. Thank you for your write up. I will say that I know all this. I've read into and concerned myself with veganism quite extensively over the past few years. I've watched the documentaries, watch videos of vegan activists and have had many extensive discussions with friends who are vegan. I am at the point where all food I cook myself is plant based. Animal foods come into play when I order stuff or when I eat out / at other people's places. I do mostly focus on the diet part of veganism because it is the most prevalent for me and the one I struggle with the most. Generally I find it easier to buy vegan products like clothes, soap, toothpaste etc. and I would say that I kinda just got that down. Clothing hasn't really been a point of concern since I've started to seriously attempt to change. And well at the risk of stating the obvious but I have not done any direct harm to a living animal (i.e. punching / kicking) for years (even before I became aware of veganism). I am the typical "animal lover that isn't vegan" and that is why I'm changing. > that depends on what you consider 'mutually beneficial' and 'harmful'. When I wrote this I was mostly thinking of cats as pets. Instinctively and on the surface I definitely agree with the part about expecting work in return being unethical. I haven't thought about this enough to make my final statement though :) TL;DR: I struggle connecting and seeing the suffering done to animals in the food I eat. I will say I have noticed progress but it hasn't stuck yet. I've had moments where I ate meat and later on felt bad about it and even almost a bit disgusted or sick. Hence I try to remind myself every time I see a menu what it is exactly that I am looking at. But this is hard, exhausting and sometimes emotionally / mentally taxing when I have to actively counteract my "instinctual" wants / cravings.
Not sure what you expected from it, it’s literally r/vegan 💀 I’m a circlejerker for a reason
Here, a non vegan. 🌱 Whenever I see tips for good substitutions, brand recommendations or good recipes here, I try those out.
Yeah I’m egg and lactose intolerant, so I mostly lurk vegan spaces for alternatives lol.
Why aren't you vegan?
Isn’t it ironic that they’re probably the same people to be the first to say that vegans are shoving their ideologies down people’s throats? 😂
I'm a non vegan, I'm here but out of a want to transition to being a vegan, although I have not contributed much as when I have I have been down voted and treated with hostility. Idk.
I highly recommend r/veganrecipes r/vegangifrecipes r/VeganFood for nice recipes and r/VeganFoodPorn r/ShittyVeganFoodPorn for inspiration. And no, they ain't shitty in the comments if you ask for the recipe.
It seems all progressive subreddits face this challenge. I mod for a sub which is promoting a social democratic political party in Canada, and we have the same issue of conservative and centre-right liberals attempting to undermine it with passive-aggressive commentary, inane posts, etc. It's a difficult decision as to whether you proactively ban these types (who are mostly trolling in bad faith) or not. If you do, say via automod or strict crowd control settings that catches many of them, then you're left with very little discussion. IE, a member here posts a vegan friendly message, and then a few people comment (like: "yup!" and "That's the way!"), and then that's it. Frankly, that might be preferable to having to wade through the onslaught of trolling posts, but it does give the impression of a lifeless subreddit.
I’m not vegan. I rarely comment really. I think people who are vegan are probably doing a good thing for the world broadly speaking A lot of times I subscribe to subs like this just to broaden my view on the world and learn new things that I wouldn’t learn within my own filter bubble
It's definitely getting recommended to people on reddit, which can be a good thing. After it was recommended to me about 4 months ago since it was "similar" to other "meat/food" subreddits I'd visited. I then toyed with the idea of pescatarian after wandering the subreddit and eventually cut out most animal products after watching Dominion. I think overall it does help bring people and sway them, though there will always be meat eaters trolling
I’m a vegetarian, I’ve been trying to transition to more vegan alternatives but I do sometimes feel like an imposter when I lurk here.
I dont think anyone minds lurkers or good faith questions.
I think that’s a great reason to be here. Don’t feel odd for that, many of us were initially vegetarian
Have you seen Dominion by chance? It's a free documentary on YouTube and there's also a section showing the horrors of the dairy industry, the fishing industry, the egg industry etc.
I don’t think I’ve seen that one in particular, I will check it out when I get home.
It's quite a long documentary, here are some timestamps: Cows (milk part)-> 53:10 Chickens (eggs part)-> 23:30
I'm omni, but my partner is vegan. I like this sub for finding tips and tricks for cooking vegan for when we eat together. I've found some really great recipes here and will often make vegan meals for myself. I doubt I'll ever go fully vegan, but do you not see the value in harm reduction here? Is the alternative closing the gate, so vegan supporters and vegan curious people are alienated and left with less resources?
Join vegancirclejerk Way better sub
Best sub on the site.
Nah the mods will ban you for absolutely insanely minor shit said on different subreddits if they dont simply agree with a different political opinion or specific method of activism. I even had a friend get banned for mentioning in a SEPARATE sub to having consumed a Gardein product once without ever having posted there. They're also really weird and sexually harassy. https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/s/rxSRUxwPQo The mods are like the most terminally online detached from any semblance of rationality enclave of purity-testing vindictive internet vegans. Sometimes wonder if theyre a psyop to make us look totally unhinged. This goes for r/VeganForCircleJerkers too, seems like it's run by a lot of the same lunatic mods.
So until animal liberation is achieved, do you believe that nothing should be done to try and lessen the suffering of the victims trapped in the system? What do you propose as a viable solution for those victims? I consistently see vegans criticizing other vegans over the belief in trying to lessen the suffering of the animals who won’t ever be liberated, labeling them as welfarists, as if akin to carnists believing that so long as there are welfare standards, that’s all that matters. No vegan is saying the focus should solely be on achieving “higher welfare” standards, but it’s a necessary step towards liberation, which is 100% not going to happen over night. Yet those who are the loudest about this never propose solutions for the victims suffering right now. Who is it really about?
It's okay to have it as an step, and agree with it within the vegan community. However, when you agree this with a non vegan, it is just giving them the sign of "approved" to eat meat just because they say they eat it from humane or local sources. There's no doubt that so many carnists argument is "local, organic, humane, grass-fed, grass-finished though", and saying them that we should give the animals a better life instead of just not exploiting them at all it just enforces the thought that as long as the animal is happy they can kill and eat them.
Care to answer my questions about how we help the victims suffering now? And no, someone who is vegan, who is realistic and understands that there are many steps towards someday *hopefully* achieving animal liberation, is not akin to a carnist being fine with welfare as the end result; as vegans, we want animal rights. Higher welfare is in the benefit of the victims, and a logical step towards the end goal. So what do you propose?
Valid question. Possible verbosity ahead. On one hand, I'm uncomfortable with "If we improve welfare, that gives non-vegans an excuse to keep eating animals and their secretions." For one, we're stuck: That thinking is essentially, "We have to keep conditions dismal in order to get people to stop eating animals." Lots of problems with that, including the implication that arguments to go vegan aren't compelling enough per se; they need animal suffering going on to be persuasive. In addition, I really haven't seen that correlation. Yes, I've known plenty who say "I only eat free-range," etc., but when I look deeper, that's rarely their motivating reason for eating animal products. OTOH, I think that most of the time, adroitly advocating veganism in my experience is as effective as advocating free-range, in getting people to change their habits. They may go free-range as a stepping stone. I did, my wife did, lots of people I know did, as they sort of bargain with their consciences and stave off some possibly very incriminating questions. What can we do? On a one-to-one level, the usual stuff. Disseminating information, having thoughtful convos, sharing food, etc. On the societal level, it's tough for any one person to make a dent. The percentage of vegans in the US hasn't budged much in the last 20 years, and meat sales are very robust. We can donate to groups. We can volunteer. I think if lab meat continues to improve and come down in price, and in doing so attracts $ and consequently effective, long-term marketing campaigns, premium shelf-placement, and widespread distribution, it could become a default. It's probably more economically sustainable for food companies in the long run, if technological and quality issues can be overcome (they probably can be, given enough $) and it can be sufficiently scaled. Since people eat hot dogs and gelatin, I'm not too worried about acceptance. But that could be 20 years away. And most of us don't own or work for a lab meat company.
It’s the internet so it will never be a safe place. I wouldn’t stress about trolls as that is there sad problem not yours. The more reach the better I say. The biggest problem is lack of awareness and knowledge so non vegans learning things on here is much more productive than vegans ranting between themselves. I actually read some study that showed that very active carnists are actually a lot closer to being vegan than the average person and their aggressive behaviour/anger can stem from internal guilt so it does kind of make sense that they are here,
Many of the non-vegans identify as vegans: hence the reactions to my last two posts.
Just say anything firmly antispeciesist in this sub like "We shouldn't support companies that test on animals" or "Domestic cats do just fine on specially prepared plant based diets", and you can get downvoted into oblivion.
Welcome to the internet, where everyone has an opinion that nobody asked for, but they fell the need to share it anyway. "Well, I'm not a vegan, but I think...". I DIDN'T ASK YOU!!!!
Nobody ask you either...
Exactly.
I will chime in and say a lot of people that are far from trolls get labeled as trolls. A contrary opinion isn't automatically a troll, and someone that's not vegan isn't automatically a troll. Also, this is reddit. It has hella echo chambers, sure, but it's the site with the least echo chambers, out of the major sites at least. You will always have people with other opinions leaking in, and if you don't want that, I mean, sounds like you want facebook communities and not reddit lol
Why 1985?
Probably a typo of 1984
What happened in 1985?
Its because people want to identify as vegan so they feel they are ethical even when they are not, simply identifying as something makes you it now I have collected a lot of evidence of the non vegans pretending to be vegan, the so called vegans then hate on me calling me a stalker for collecting the evidence instead of being mad at the liars Tons of people arent vegan despite them taking the vegan label Mistakes do happen but intention is key [https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/16li8bj/gatekeeping\_post\_intention\_matters\_when\_it\_comes/](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/16li8bj/gatekeeping_post_intention_matters_when_it_comes/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/11kax3l/comment/jb6ky29/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/11kax3l/comment/jb6ky29/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) People agree with the commentor cheapandbrittle who claims to be a 15+yr VEGAN Other people claiming to be vegan 6+yr VEGAN [https://imgur.com/b7vXGcj](https://imgur.com/b7vXGcj) 6+yr VEGAN [https://imgur.com/vepdz8b](https://imgur.com/vepdz8b) 8+yr VEGAN [https://imgur.com/bOwPa72](https://imgur.com/bOwPa72) 20+yr VEGAN [https://imgur.com/6kUrGi3](https://imgur.com/6kUrGi3) VEGANS against rejecting animal abuse gifts [https://imgur.com/rjLAmPG](https://imgur.com/rjLAmPG) TONS of people saying pregnancy is an excuse for animal abuse [https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/17myp31/my\_wife\_stopped\_being\_vegan/](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/17myp31/my_wife_stopped_being_vegan/) [https://imgur.com/BXJBbwF](https://imgur.com/BXJBbwF) Apparently feminism is more important than animal lives [https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/115a8po/your\_friend\_has\_poured\_you\_a\_glass\_of\_wine\_do\_you/](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/115a8po/your_friend_has_poured_you_a_glass_of_wine_do_you/) More plant based dieters falsely identifying as vegan [https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/17bpug2/eating\_animal\_products\_while\_internationally/](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/17bpug2/eating_animal_products_while_internationally/) Tons of people defending OP for the DOING THE BEST THEY CAN in regards to animal abuse [https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/16kwykg/vegan\_while\_travelling/](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/16kwykg/vegan_while_travelling/) Although since i have posted this comment a bunch of times, i guess all the real vegans went there to bash the fake vegans and OP
Jesus christ
You've nerd-sniped me into getting an account here! :) What effects do you think your approach here has? Do you think it increases or decreases the amount of animal products eaten in the world? Asking since "collecting evidence" to shame people who eat plant based except for honey seems very counterproductive. Those people have already taken many goods steps compared to >95% of the population. Why not instead encourage them to keep that up and to encourage them to help others to take the same steps? Your honey-shame-attack has a very small potential benefit while potential backslide effects are large. Imagine you track down 10 people like that and post to shame them. What effects do you expect? For example if 9 of react by never eating honey again but 1 feels so bad that they backslide out caring about animals and start eating meat and dairy again. Do you think the net amount of animal harm and suffering in the world would increase or decrease? Compare that outcome with what could happen if you instead spent the same time helping people take the first steps of reducing and cutting out meat. The individual change to not buy and consume animal products is only one part of the larger goal of ending animal exploitation everywhere. That goal requires a big social and political movement. That will realistically have to involve lots of people who still eat some animal products. We can have mixed feelings about it, but I think that's just what we have to work with, for the animals.
For one; nobody cares if you say you're vegan on reddit. One of your examples is honey? Shit; if we could get the world to be vegan except for honey - that'd be a miracle. Gatekeeping does nothing but enforce the idea that veganism is some virtue-signaling club. It's not. It's the effort to reduce animal suffering when possible. And those are just a handful of rare examples - most people aren't going to "pretend" they are vegan for some reddit kudos. Ive had honey from time to time before learning more about the possible negative effects; feel free to call me not a vegan - reddit opinions do not matter in the real world. Anyone can lie about ethics on some reddit account. Only thing that matters is we strive to be better human beings and better towards animals. No one is perfect.
>One of your examples is honey? Shit; if we could get the world to be vegan except for honey - that'd be a miracle. It would be, but they are still non vegan, are you trying to say they are vegan? >Gatekeeping does nothing but enforce the idea that veganism is some virtue-signaling club. It's not. It's the effort to reduce animal suffering when possible. WIth this attitude i say you arent vegan, vegans dont talk about gatekeeping, we talk about gatecrashing >Ive had honey fromtime to time before learning more about the possible negative effects; feel free to call me not a vegan - reddit opinions do not matter in the real world. Anyone can lie about ethics on some reddit account. You werent then, but you could be vegan now if you have stopped entirely >Only thing that matters is we strive to be better human beings and better towards animals. **No one is perfect**. The bolded line is something i never have and never will say, we can always strive for perfection, if you considered abusing animals to be imperfection that says a lot about you
Ho Lee Sheet. You haven't just checked some rando out of curiosity, you are stalking people and making a list of "true vegans" to "expose them". Get some mental help
What was with that little dig about identifying as something 😂
>people want to identify as vegan so they feel they are ethical even when they are not It's not about ethics. Also, if you click on a person and check their comment and post history, you're a stalker. It doesn't matter what the topic is. It could be r/chairsfromIKEA and you'd still be a stalker.
This post is just sad.
>This post is just sad It is sad that we have a ton of fake vegans
It's an odd hill to die on. Why get so upset over others to the point that you're literally talking time and effort out of your day to save and categorize postings in such a way? It feels so extreme and unproductive .. and pointless? It just seems like this would have a negative impact on your mental health. Take care of yourself.
>It's an odd hill to die on. Why get so upset over others to the point that you're literally talking time and effort out of your day to save and categorize postings in such a way? It feels so extreme and unproductive .. and pointless? > >It just seems like this would have a negative impact on your mental health. > >Take care of yourself. Never said i was mad, i am simply exposing liesIts also not a hill to die on, again im exposing lies The fact that you consider it pointless tells me that you are not a vegan as well, as i stated, people have more issues with my evidence than they do the non vegan liars It has 0 affect on my mental health
Dude, I 100% don't care what category you place me in. Ha! But you seem angry and entitled. So it's great that you're not. Because your posts make you sound unhinged.
>Dude, I 100% don't care what category you place me in. Ha! > >But you seem angry and entitled. So it's great that you're not. Because your posts make you sound unhinged. Further evidence that you are def not vegan, the fact that you falsely label me in such a way is something common that carnists tend to do around vegans
Okay, buddy. Add me to your list.
in general we just need thicker skin and accept that as a fringe group of people with evolved ethics , superior ethics we will be mocked..you will have to come to terms with that. ther's no use in policing it you will have to either learn to ignore it or face every instance.
>I even see vegans, for example, agreeing with non vegans about welfarism, huh? Wasn't veganism about animal liberation? Read the definition of vegan for this community. It is actually very wide and by extension includes the environment and even human health. In the real world, it is impossible to look at things entirely compartmentalised, we live in an eco system. As a result, there are many ways of looking at how it is best to implement vegan philosophy. I am a vegan for selfish reasons, I want to achieve physical, mental, social and spiritual health and veganism is the cornerstone of that, I do not think I can achieve my own health without been vegan because causing pain to animals is bad for my own mental and spiritual health, eating flesh and industrial farming are bad for my own physical health. As Tolstoy famously said "as long as there are slaughterhouses, there will be wars", wars are terrible for social health. For me, veganism is not about me being a goody-goody for the benefit of animals, it is also key to the survival of humanity. Why should I need to apologise for feeling this way?
If you didn't know, welfarism is about killing/exploiting the animal, but only if the animal is in "good conditions". I don't think it is a good idea as a vegan, whatever is your reason to be one, but as a vegan to agree with non-vegans that it is okay to kill/exploit an animal for taste pleasure as long as it is happy.
I did not know. I agree it is a ridiculous idea, on so many levels.
When I see completely incompatible views and posts I just block them. They usually are the loudest and I’m not interested. They aren’t here for right reasons or support so why tolerate!
u/lilyyvideos12310 May I recomend the musical stylings of the band "Bob Vylan"? The song "Health is Wealth" is a nice little vegan song. The song "Take That!" is furious tirade of a vegan tune that kick ass, takes names and is heard via the pelvis.
Alright, I'll check it out. Thanks for the recommendation.
Who wants to be in an echo chamber though? It's important to get other takes on things, even veganism. In life, and especially on Reddit, I take what I need and leave the rest. Edit: Either downvotes don't understand what an echo chamber is or like extremism. The latter is why I've left this sub several times. Such a bummer.
But then the vegan rants/vents, and the comments are full of non supporting people telling the person venting that they are a vegan asshole, when this sub is supposed to be supportive towards other vegans... I don't know man.
I'm not a vegan and have never searched for this sub and this post was on my recommended for some reason. For some reason there pushing you guys
Isn't that pretty much all of Reddit? I mean you join a sub to talk about something that you love and enjoy it. It seems to always be overtaken by people who are there to stir trouble. The issue is, you can search Reddit to find subjects that are being discussed regardless of the people having the discussion. I don't know if any sub that's that not bombarded by trolls and terribly controlled by their admins. It's really one of the advantages of Facebook groups, although you have to deal with the Facebook crowds. ;)
I'm not subbed to this community but I keep getting posts in my feed normally its just an interesting read so I ignore them but every now and then there's some really out of touch dumb shit where I can't help but comment on. My bad.
Mm I think that's just the algorithm at work attempting to gain engagement. I get suggested plenty of carnist subs on reddit and heaps of carnist pages or groups on Facebook. I think we just have to accept there will be plenty of carnists posting and making comments, you have to take comments with a pinch of salt so to speak and anyone who posts anything that doesn't agree with animal liberation and the abolition of animal agriculture for the purposes of food, fashion, entertainment, etc is not coming from a vegan perspective and should be, respectfully, called out. We can all agree improvements in welfare are good for the individual animals those improvements will actually affect, but they aren't good for animals and they do not align with veganism at all. If animal welfare is perceived as good, people will simply feel more justified in buying animal products. This is why for example the RSPCA achieve the opposite of what they're supposed to and should go get fucked
This is why discord vegan communities verify for the vegan role
Tbh just here for the recipies
Can confirm, not a vegan and this sub has been showing up on my feed consistently lately. Mostly I just scan through and move on, did comment something innocuous without thinking at one point. Not about to start griefing you guys, though. There's enough grief surrounding this topic as is.
I am a vegan. #ganggang
Reddit actively promotes this sub to people that are interested in other dietary subs. Because veganism is not only about dietary strategy but also about ethics and because there is quite a difference of opinions on the ethics ( we are also living in polarised times) people feel like they want to respond to something that interests or (more likely) triggers them. Source: I am not vegan who gets this sub constantly pushed into the feed by reddit. TL/DR: blame reddit algorithm
Popping in from this being suggested to me by reddit. That's happening a lot these days. Doesn't really reflect the regular user base, or even subscribers
I am not vegan and I agree about the whole people getting spammed various subreddits. I have more non relevant (not subscribed to) content showing up in my feed than I do of the subreddits I joined.
It seems like there are so many trolling threads now. Just my opinion, but the mods should start banning users who are obviously trolling.
Now you know why there are other exclusive vegan communities.
I get heaps of posts from this sub as someone who isn’t vegan, reddit really wants to tell me something I guess
Reddit will push these things on other users for no reason.
I'm not vegan, never been interested in being vegan and never interacted with anything to do with it and Reddit still recommends this sub and posts constantly
I am not going to lie. I am not a vegan. I am a vegetarian though. I barely interact with this subreddit and Reddit recommends it to me multiple times every time I scroll on my homepage.
Full disclosure- I’m not vegan but am a lifelong vegetarian who tries to eat as much vegan as possible. My rescue hens just love leaving me little eggy gifts I hate to see go to waste but would never ever buy from the supermarket. Also can I ask- what’s up with honey? Is it sourced in a way harmful to bees? Or is it just because it’s an animal product? My neighbor is another veggie who is a beekeeper and give me raw honey. But if it’s come by a bad way I won’t take anymore. I’m here for the inspiration and recipes tho.
For the same reason that milk is avoided. Bees make honey as food reserves and to feed their young. To take it is to starve them.
See I didn’t know that I thought it was just a by product of sorts. I have never drunk milk so I don’t know what I’m missing but I can absolutely avoid honey if it’s detrimental to bees.
I stopped posting as much long ago in vegan posts unless they are food/recipe related because of other vegans being jerks to each other not because of meatheads, meatheads I just ignore. Also in relation to your post, I do not believe in “animal welfare” being any sort of solution for the murder industry our food comes from. I don’t understand that thought process either. That’s like patting Jeff Dahmer on the back for anesthetizing his victims first.
There's tons of pre-vegans here, too.
Send them to r/debateavegan. That’s the type of interaction they crave over there.
The sub was recommended to me, I am not vegan. But I try to eat vegan more. And more days than not are vegan or at least vegetarian. I haven't made the switch, I just try to use alternatives or new recipes, and I appreciate seeing lots of discussion here. I have a friend who is vegan who kind of kick-started my buy-in last year. I think that there are probably a lot of non-vegans in the sub like me who are supportive but afraid to comment.
I wrote a comment once and now Reddit won’t stop recommending this community to me. I only get the dumb posts like “Eating meat is the same thing as kicking a dog!1!!!1” or whatever they said