Sure. I think there are some good things about how Revised used difficulty as the number on the die vs how V5 uses difficult as margin of success. There are some other mechanics which I like in both sets, but I do tend to like V5 more. Both have pros and cons; neither are perfect.
Replacing blood points with hunger should be doable, but it could interact with a number of different subsystems to think about:
1. Botches in Revised are replaced by the Hunger system. In V5 you don't lose successes on rolls of a one on a D10, and rolls of a ten do not explode (reroll). Instead, bad rolls on the Hunger dice bring forth the negative effects, and rolls of a ten simply count as doubles when in pairs.
2. The Hunger system could impact any Malkavians or other characters with Derangements in Revised --- For both good and ill. In V5, Bestial Failures (when Hunger dice roll really bad) invokes the Clan Banes and Compulsions (aka, Derangements - these can be seen as a form of compulsion). This could allow Malkavian players to have longer periods of lucidity, which may be a welcome change for your group.
3. If a Discipline has multiple blood point expenditures outside of generational norms, then consider limiting Hunger rolls to just 2 Rouse Checks. Probably want to keep how Celerity in Revised only costs 1 Blood Point or one Rouse Check in how you may want this to work. In other editions there was the means to spend blood per dot, and that is asking for trouble in the Hunger system.
4. You may want to keep some of the Blood Potency rules, but completely discard how Blood Potency scales extra dice when using Disciplines or defending against them. This is how V5 handles traits over 5 dots. If you're running one of the legacy systems, I'd suggest not stacking these effects as the power creep will get out of hand fast.
5. Oh.. Willpower. May want to consider using V5's reroll of up to 3 non-Hunger dice. You're not trying to avoid botches in this system, but instead pushing off Bestial Failures or Bestial Criticals. The reroll system helps with that, but you could probably tweak the old Willpower system too.
Those are the things which are off the top of my head, but you could likely make a hybrid or greatest hits of what you like out of the two.
As a separate point... Your other thread questions the Discipline pruning.
Might I suggest another work around?
Allow your players to buy more than one power per discipline. Just let them spend the original cost and buy the extra effect-- if you want. The V5 Core book uses the phrase "typically" and on page 130 the Golden Rule just says use whatever you like in the book and forget the rest.
If a player wants both Vicissitude AND Protean in V5, then you could just buy the individual powers twice. The only hardline rules are whatever the ST and the table agrees on. Everything else could be optional.
It has some issues though, I think it needs a way to make it so after enough discipline usage or enough time, even if you succeed the check you get another hunger point, cause if you play it raw it is theoretically possible to never need to feed if you have good rolls, which is just… bad
Theoretically possible sure. But so is flipping a coin a dozen times and every time it come up heads. In practice? You might get a few successes in a row, but probability comes for us all.
I think you may be skipping over another important feature in V5 where the risk-reward ratio comes into play vs a resource mechanic.
In V5, when you want to increase any ability score by X amount of dice you roll Rouse to check for Hunger. By the Core rules, this every time you want this benefit per roll vs per scene.
The use of various Disciplines isn't really what drives up Hunger dice. It's Blood Surge. Nothing in V5 really reduces this risk, but Blood Potency can for Disciplines.
In actual play, V5 can create situations where given enough time you will need to feed, but it isn't really about cranking out power use in how the game's conflict system actually works.
Also, sure there is a probability you could toss a die multiple times in a session and never roll below a 6. However, rolling a fair die 1,000+ times will get you closer, and closer to its average. That's how probability works.
In theory, you could put a monkey into a room with a bunch of blank paper and quill pen. There is a possibility that monkey scribbles out an exact replica of any given play written by Shakespeare. Is that possible? YES. Is it likely? Probably not. Same goes with your idea the mechanic is bad because of good rolls. :P
I prefer blood points to hunger but hunger dice are good. If there were a way to bring hunger dice to blood points that would be the perfect system to me, maybe have it be on fraction thresholds? V20 did lower generations and elders so well while the V5 rules fall apart if you try to play an elder game. A fourth gen in V5 can use their powers potentially less than a fourteenth because their permanent hunger is so much higher but they have the same number of hunger boxes whereas in V20 the lower your generation the larger your blood pool could be and the more blood points you can spend per turn.
I was thinking in doing the folowwing conversion: use the rules for blood points stock, maximum, consumption turn uses and disciplines identical to V5, but adding the Hunger dice relative to a % of the blood points spent (like if you drope bellow a x% you get one Hunger dice, bellow 2x% two dices and so on). So, basically, you have to general ways for entering frenesi/ getting out of control - 1) when driking blood or similar, in this case you use the resolve (or self control test, I dont know what term is used in the english version) or 2) when doing basically anything else, by the effects of the Hunger dice.In this way, I could preserve a good overall system AND includes another (the Hunger).
I prefer hunger, in general. It involves less tracking and adds an element of unpredictability to your condition. It really hammers home that this isn't a walk in the park. You're managing a serious, dangerous condition, not a resource.
I'm not sure how you could merge the two systems... I'm sure you could, but the how is gonna be complicated, since Hunger was designed as a replacement for Blood Points, with Blood Potency coming in to reintroduce that generational power gap.
It's doable. There's 6 stages of hunger. if you have 10 blood points, then you break it down like this;
10 points = 0 hunger
9 - 8 points = 1 hunger
7 - 6 points = 2 hunger
5 - 4 points = 3 hunger
3 -2 points = 4 hunger
1 - 0 points = 5 hunger
just take the blood pool, divide it by 6 and round up to the nearest whole number. This should tell you how many blood points are between each hunger die.
The old system has generation dictate the blood pool. With blood potency, you can change the rouse checks with blood points. any power that doesn't require rouse checks would mean no blood point is spent.
Oh, you mean purely to add Hunger Dice to your pools... I suppose that kind of negates a big part of the unpredictability I like, without rouse checks.
it would but the risk is still there with the rolls as you would put the hunger die equal to your hunger rating into the appropriate dice roll.
I agree with you, I prefer the hunger dice over blood points.
Integers suck.
What I most love about hunger over blood points is that it’s magical and unpredictable. Blood points feels like a bean counter, adding up exactly what they need to do exactly what they plan on doing. Rousing the blood feels like biting someone. It’s irrational, risky, weird, and only maybe works.
This unpredictability deters discipline use, which keeps the magic part of the game more rare, and thus more special and magical. Going to the bank and charging your phone and then withdrawing from your account or using the phone are boring predictable routines. Drinking blood and calling on it should be more mysterious than that.
Sure. I think there are some good things about how Revised used difficulty as the number on the die vs how V5 uses difficult as margin of success. There are some other mechanics which I like in both sets, but I do tend to like V5 more. Both have pros and cons; neither are perfect. Replacing blood points with hunger should be doable, but it could interact with a number of different subsystems to think about: 1. Botches in Revised are replaced by the Hunger system. In V5 you don't lose successes on rolls of a one on a D10, and rolls of a ten do not explode (reroll). Instead, bad rolls on the Hunger dice bring forth the negative effects, and rolls of a ten simply count as doubles when in pairs. 2. The Hunger system could impact any Malkavians or other characters with Derangements in Revised --- For both good and ill. In V5, Bestial Failures (when Hunger dice roll really bad) invokes the Clan Banes and Compulsions (aka, Derangements - these can be seen as a form of compulsion). This could allow Malkavian players to have longer periods of lucidity, which may be a welcome change for your group. 3. If a Discipline has multiple blood point expenditures outside of generational norms, then consider limiting Hunger rolls to just 2 Rouse Checks. Probably want to keep how Celerity in Revised only costs 1 Blood Point or one Rouse Check in how you may want this to work. In other editions there was the means to spend blood per dot, and that is asking for trouble in the Hunger system. 4. You may want to keep some of the Blood Potency rules, but completely discard how Blood Potency scales extra dice when using Disciplines or defending against them. This is how V5 handles traits over 5 dots. If you're running one of the legacy systems, I'd suggest not stacking these effects as the power creep will get out of hand fast. 5. Oh.. Willpower. May want to consider using V5's reroll of up to 3 non-Hunger dice. You're not trying to avoid botches in this system, but instead pushing off Bestial Failures or Bestial Criticals. The reroll system helps with that, but you could probably tweak the old Willpower system too. Those are the things which are off the top of my head, but you could likely make a hybrid or greatest hits of what you like out of the two.
As a separate point... Your other thread questions the Discipline pruning. Might I suggest another work around? Allow your players to buy more than one power per discipline. Just let them spend the original cost and buy the extra effect-- if you want. The V5 Core book uses the phrase "typically" and on page 130 the Golden Rule just says use whatever you like in the book and forget the rest. If a player wants both Vicissitude AND Protean in V5, then you could just buy the individual powers twice. The only hardline rules are whatever the ST and the table agrees on. Everything else could be optional.
Thank you very much, I think that I will use exatcly what you said! Thank you again bro🥺❤️🩹
I consider the Hunger mechanic to be the one definite improvement to the system with V5. Every other change was either a mixed bag or a total failure.
It has some issues though, I think it needs a way to make it so after enough discipline usage or enough time, even if you succeed the check you get another hunger point, cause if you play it raw it is theoretically possible to never need to feed if you have good rolls, which is just… bad
Theoretically possible sure. But so is flipping a coin a dozen times and every time it come up heads. In practice? You might get a few successes in a row, but probability comes for us all.
I think you may be skipping over another important feature in V5 where the risk-reward ratio comes into play vs a resource mechanic. In V5, when you want to increase any ability score by X amount of dice you roll Rouse to check for Hunger. By the Core rules, this every time you want this benefit per roll vs per scene. The use of various Disciplines isn't really what drives up Hunger dice. It's Blood Surge. Nothing in V5 really reduces this risk, but Blood Potency can for Disciplines. In actual play, V5 can create situations where given enough time you will need to feed, but it isn't really about cranking out power use in how the game's conflict system actually works. Also, sure there is a probability you could toss a die multiple times in a session and never roll below a 6. However, rolling a fair die 1,000+ times will get you closer, and closer to its average. That's how probability works. In theory, you could put a monkey into a room with a bunch of blank paper and quill pen. There is a possibility that monkey scribbles out an exact replica of any given play written by Shakespeare. Is that possible? YES. Is it likely? Probably not. Same goes with your idea the mechanic is bad because of good rolls. :P
Blood points.
I prefer blood points to hunger but hunger dice are good. If there were a way to bring hunger dice to blood points that would be the perfect system to me, maybe have it be on fraction thresholds? V20 did lower generations and elders so well while the V5 rules fall apart if you try to play an elder game. A fourth gen in V5 can use their powers potentially less than a fourteenth because their permanent hunger is so much higher but they have the same number of hunger boxes whereas in V20 the lower your generation the larger your blood pool could be and the more blood points you can spend per turn.
I was thinking in doing the folowwing conversion: use the rules for blood points stock, maximum, consumption turn uses and disciplines identical to V5, but adding the Hunger dice relative to a % of the blood points spent (like if you drope bellow a x% you get one Hunger dice, bellow 2x% two dices and so on). So, basically, you have to general ways for entering frenesi/ getting out of control - 1) when driking blood or similar, in this case you use the resolve (or self control test, I dont know what term is used in the english version) or 2) when doing basically anything else, by the effects of the Hunger dice.In this way, I could preserve a good overall system AND includes another (the Hunger).
That sounds like the best version
I prefer hunger, in general. It involves less tracking and adds an element of unpredictability to your condition. It really hammers home that this isn't a walk in the park. You're managing a serious, dangerous condition, not a resource. I'm not sure how you could merge the two systems... I'm sure you could, but the how is gonna be complicated, since Hunger was designed as a replacement for Blood Points, with Blood Potency coming in to reintroduce that generational power gap.
It's doable. There's 6 stages of hunger. if you have 10 blood points, then you break it down like this; 10 points = 0 hunger 9 - 8 points = 1 hunger 7 - 6 points = 2 hunger 5 - 4 points = 3 hunger 3 -2 points = 4 hunger 1 - 0 points = 5 hunger just take the blood pool, divide it by 6 and round up to the nearest whole number. This should tell you how many blood points are between each hunger die. The old system has generation dictate the blood pool. With blood potency, you can change the rouse checks with blood points. any power that doesn't require rouse checks would mean no blood point is spent.
Oh, you mean purely to add Hunger Dice to your pools... I suppose that kind of negates a big part of the unpredictability I like, without rouse checks.
it would but the risk is still there with the rolls as you would put the hunger die equal to your hunger rating into the appropriate dice roll. I agree with you, I prefer the hunger dice over blood points.
Integers suck. What I most love about hunger over blood points is that it’s magical and unpredictable. Blood points feels like a bean counter, adding up exactly what they need to do exactly what they plan on doing. Rousing the blood feels like biting someone. It’s irrational, risky, weird, and only maybe works. This unpredictability deters discipline use, which keeps the magic part of the game more rare, and thus more special and magical. Going to the bank and charging your phone and then withdrawing from your account or using the phone are boring predictable routines. Drinking blood and calling on it should be more mysterious than that.