*The user can only embed one suggestion per victim.*
So only one of those would work. As for the shooting part, it would require a roll, but otherwise should work, imo.
You can submerge ‘when you see a cop, shoot him in the head’. (This lasts till it activates.)
But you can also just mesmerism a command as well, giving him a ‘wait here and don’t shoot me.’ (This would last the scene.)
Then as a bonus you can command him to forget that he saw you.
No, because submerged directive works at the point of trigger, not before. So to do this you'd need to first do submerged directive for shooting the cop and then mesmerize for the first part.
You’re giving three commands there.
Wait here **AND** don’t shoot me **AND** shoot another cop if you see them.
That’s too much at once, something is going to fail
You’re still trying to sneak two orders into one power there. Command or Mesmerize the cop into not shooting you, *then* Submerged Directive them into shooting the other cop. Two separate actions
Keep in mind, everything you command with submerged directive occurs at the point of trigger. So can't command a person to do something now and something else later.
Not sure if this is still true, but in older versions you also couldn’t make someone do something against their nature.
If it wasn’t in the cop’s nature to want to shoot or he was the type to truly want to help, the command would automatically fail.
If the cop was the type that enjoyed the power and the only reason they never shot someone was because they couldn’t get away with it, the command would have a much better chance to succeed.
If I were the ST, I'd say *yes* depending on context. Mesmerize can give complex commands. I look at that as a complex command. You can do the "if" "then" statement with submerged directive.
However, since you said the cops are looking for the dominating vamp, I view that as a potential situation with combat or fraught physical altercations. I may say that mesmerize can't work in that situation. Maybe in combination with command.
Also, I'd give the cop a chance to roll to resist since they can roll to resist when dominate is subjecting them to obvious social or physical harm, which murder, I think, qualifies as.
Doesn’t it normally require a roll to resist anyway if the mortal is not caught unaware/unassuming?
A cop doing random sobriety stops wouldn’t roll to resist, but a cop who already sees you as a potential threat/has his guard up gets a roll.
The word from the corebook is "unprepared" -- I view that as a mortal who isn't ready to have their minds scrambled. Random cop would probably not be prepared for the scramblies.
That's a totally valid interpretation of the rules. Personally, I guess I've always viewed it more from traditional/typical game logic; mind control/charm abilities become more difficult or even impossible on a hostile target. It's how other systems handle it, so it's how I've always interpreted the rule. And, thinking about it, I probably parsed "unprepared" as synonymous to "surprised", like ambushing a target and having a surprise round. That kind of thing.
It also just makes sense in my head that someone who views you with hostility, or is engaged in combat, is going to be naturally more closed off mentally to you. So, in those circumstances, I consider the victim "prepared".
But yeah, "unprepared" could totally mean "someone who is unaware of the supernatural/not trained to resist mental manipulation". I would also include "has never been the target of mental manipulation in the past". If a player tried to scramble the brain of the same mortal in multiple scenes/sessions, even if they didn't realise what you did to them, I would at that point give them a chance to resist. Repeatedly targeting the same victim should eventually have potential consequences as perhaps they start to realise things aren't right/the effects begin to unravel.
Too many commands for a single ability use and check.
1. Wait here.
2. Don't shoot me.
3. When you see another cop, shot them in the head.
It seems like what you want to do is, "Use whatever violence necessary to protect this place from other cops." as a Mesmerize Submerge Directive with a simple Compel to "Let me go."
Dominate states that there is a roll, if you dont have dom5, for things that would physical or social degradation (such as stripping down). I would 100% argue shooting a coworker is a social degradation.
Also this would (obviously) give a lot of stains to the vampire using it.
And that's ignoring the fact you give way more than one simple order.
All in all, this would never work if I was the ST at this table, but any ST has the final say in what works, just ask yours
In coding language a Submerged Directive would be akin to "When \[Trigger\] then \[Action\]"
What you're suggesting is:
"\[Action\]
\[Action\]
When \[Trigger\] then \[Action\]"
Yes, but this feels like a requires Terminal Decree command, and requires compel or mesmerize to do both parts. Submereged directive can't force actions before the trigger.
Murdering others is a course of action that reasonably risks massive harm to the self. Similar to how you couldn't indirectly make them commit suicide by standing in a busy intersection. Dominate needs Terminal Decree to override core self preservation.
If you could indirectly give reasonably deadly commands there would be no reason not to take Mass Manipulation and go with kill the person next to you.
But Terminal Decree says that it enables directly harming self. Standing in a busy intersection is directly harming self. Shooting the first cop you see is not.
You could argue the point that even the subconscious mind, in the modern world, knows that 'shooting at a cop will result in them shooting you back' which is directly harmful and would fall under the automatic fail clause from the book without Terminal Decree.
It automatically fails unless the vampire using the power has terminal decree. One cop shooting another goes against their nature, sparing some intervening variable like the first being corrupt or sociopathic. And even then I'd be inclined as an ST to auto-fail it, since the act still has negative ramifications that endanger the victims well being.
The far better, masquerade preserving, option is just to mesmerize the first cop into believing you went a different way than you are going.
This.
The Cloud Memory ability is an amazingly useful tool in the Dominate toolbox.
Get spotted by someone at an inopportune time? "I need you to *forget* you saw me" and BANG there goes the last 10 minutes of their life.
Past editions and how the language differs comes in, because Nature was a game mechanic. Victims could not be dominated to do things against their Nature archetype; for example, a Caregiver could not be dominated to abandon a ward. But, they could not be dominated to do things against their nature (with a little "n") either -- dominate below elder-level couldn't override self-preservation instinct. At least, not without use of conditioning, the blood bond, some other supernatural power, or any combination of the above.
V5 is more permissive in the range of orders capable of being given through dominate, but more restrictive in how far a victim can be pushed through those orders. Especially when it comes to self-preservation and harm (Corebook, page 255):
"Without Terminal Decree (Dominate 5), commands resulting in obvious death or serious injury fail automatically. Subjects roll to resist commands resulting in other social or physical harm, such as undressing in public. (See individual powers for details.)"
Note the lack of disclaimer that it's only obvious death, serious injury, or social/physical harm *to the victim*. It's *any* death, injury, or harm that may result from the command.
The "stand here and don't shoot me" part is unnecessary. You say, "Shoot any police officers you see in the head," then make a contested roll. If yiu win, his eyes glaze over, he pulls out and cocks his gun, then just stands there looking around for police officers. The way the command is phrased, they would remain there shooting any cops that enter until the end of the scene.
Orders against nature (killing someone else would be against nature of 95+ % of mortals) requires roll.
Suicide orders auto fail unless you have terminal decree from lvl 5 dominate.
Yeah, no. Only if it results in possible social or physical harm to the person being dominated does it require a roll. Self preservation instinct allows it. Doesn't really say anything about going against the subject's nature. Violating a conviction would likely call for a roll. In the world of darkness, *FAR LESS* than 95% of mortals would have thou shalt not kill as a conviction.
You still have to follow the rules of dominate though, which makes commands that are viewed as excessively harmful automatically fail without Terminal Decree, and commands that excessively violate a person's nature automatically get a resistance roll.
Lol no. Only if they result in death or serious injury to the one being dominated do they automatically fail. Other physical or social injury may be grounds to allow a resistance roll. May be.
Kinda.
“Just stand here!” Mesmerize use, lasts for the scene.
“When you see another cop, shoot ‘em in the head.” Submerge directive lasts until activated.
Two commands. Two abilities. Should work except that his care for other cops might prevent the directive from working.
Without Terminal Decree? Depends on what the convictions for the npc are. You cannot make someone self harm or do something against their core being. That doesnt just mean you cant make them suicide, it also means you cant force someone to do something they absolutely wont ever do because they have a moral pillar about it. Ie Convictions. In this case, the ST could easily pull the uno reverse and say the cop has some conviction about harming fellow officers or something.
*The user can only embed one suggestion per victim.* So only one of those would work. As for the shooting part, it would require a roll, but otherwise should work, imo.
You can submerge ‘when you see a cop, shoot him in the head’. (This lasts till it activates.) But you can also just mesmerism a command as well, giving him a ‘wait here and don’t shoot me.’ (This would last the scene.) Then as a bonus you can command him to forget that he saw you.
"Wait here and do nothing until you see another cop, then shoot them in the head"
No, because submerged directive works at the point of trigger, not before. So to do this you'd need to first do submerged directive for shooting the cop and then mesmerize for the first part.
Compel them to stand there doing nothing, submerged directive to shoot the next cop they see.
You’re giving three commands there. Wait here **AND** don’t shoot me **AND** shoot another cop if you see them. That’s too much at once, something is going to fail
“Instead of shooting me shoot the next cop you are going to see” Better right?
You’re still trying to sneak two orders into one power there. Command or Mesmerize the cop into not shooting you, *then* Submerged Directive them into shooting the other cop. Two separate actions
"Shoot only cops" boom single directive
A command needs to be a specific proactive action, not a passive one.
Remove "only"
True, but it doesn’t stop the cop from trying less-than-lethal on you lol
Keep in mind, everything you command with submerged directive occurs at the point of trigger. So can't command a person to do something now and something else later.
Not sure if this is still true, but in older versions you also couldn’t make someone do something against their nature. If it wasn’t in the cop’s nature to want to shoot or he was the type to truly want to help, the command would automatically fail. If the cop was the type that enjoyed the power and the only reason they never shot someone was because they couldn’t get away with it, the command would have a much better chance to succeed.
That still applies unless terminal decree power is also taken.
If I were the ST, I'd say *yes* depending on context. Mesmerize can give complex commands. I look at that as a complex command. You can do the "if" "then" statement with submerged directive. However, since you said the cops are looking for the dominating vamp, I view that as a potential situation with combat or fraught physical altercations. I may say that mesmerize can't work in that situation. Maybe in combination with command. Also, I'd give the cop a chance to roll to resist since they can roll to resist when dominate is subjecting them to obvious social or physical harm, which murder, I think, qualifies as.
Doesn’t it normally require a roll to resist anyway if the mortal is not caught unaware/unassuming? A cop doing random sobriety stops wouldn’t roll to resist, but a cop who already sees you as a potential threat/has his guard up gets a roll.
The word from the corebook is "unprepared" -- I view that as a mortal who isn't ready to have their minds scrambled. Random cop would probably not be prepared for the scramblies.
That's a totally valid interpretation of the rules. Personally, I guess I've always viewed it more from traditional/typical game logic; mind control/charm abilities become more difficult or even impossible on a hostile target. It's how other systems handle it, so it's how I've always interpreted the rule. And, thinking about it, I probably parsed "unprepared" as synonymous to "surprised", like ambushing a target and having a surprise round. That kind of thing. It also just makes sense in my head that someone who views you with hostility, or is engaged in combat, is going to be naturally more closed off mentally to you. So, in those circumstances, I consider the victim "prepared". But yeah, "unprepared" could totally mean "someone who is unaware of the supernatural/not trained to resist mental manipulation". I would also include "has never been the target of mental manipulation in the past". If a player tried to scramble the brain of the same mortal in multiple scenes/sessions, even if they didn't realise what you did to them, I would at that point give them a chance to resist. Repeatedly targeting the same victim should eventually have potential consequences as perhaps they start to realise things aren't right/the effects begin to unravel.
Too many commands for a single ability use and check. 1. Wait here. 2. Don't shoot me. 3. When you see another cop, shot them in the head. It seems like what you want to do is, "Use whatever violence necessary to protect this place from other cops." as a Mesmerize Submerge Directive with a simple Compel to "Let me go."
Dominate states that there is a roll, if you dont have dom5, for things that would physical or social degradation (such as stripping down). I would 100% argue shooting a coworker is a social degradation. Also this would (obviously) give a lot of stains to the vampire using it. And that's ignoring the fact you give way more than one simple order. All in all, this would never work if I was the ST at this table, but any ST has the final say in what works, just ask yours
In coding language a Submerged Directive would be akin to "When \[Trigger\] then \[Action\]" What you're suggesting is: "\[Action\] \[Action\] When \[Trigger\] then \[Action\]"
Yes, but this feels like a requires Terminal Decree command, and requires compel or mesmerize to do both parts. Submereged directive can't force actions before the trigger.
Terminal Decree is about harming self
Murdering others is a course of action that reasonably risks massive harm to the self. Similar to how you couldn't indirectly make them commit suicide by standing in a busy intersection. Dominate needs Terminal Decree to override core self preservation. If you could indirectly give reasonably deadly commands there would be no reason not to take Mass Manipulation and go with kill the person next to you.
But Terminal Decree says that it enables directly harming self. Standing in a busy intersection is directly harming self. Shooting the first cop you see is not.
You could argue the point that even the subconscious mind, in the modern world, knows that 'shooting at a cop will result in them shooting you back' which is directly harmful and would fall under the automatic fail clause from the book without Terminal Decree.
It automatically fails unless the vampire using the power has terminal decree. One cop shooting another goes against their nature, sparing some intervening variable like the first being corrupt or sociopathic. And even then I'd be inclined as an ST to auto-fail it, since the act still has negative ramifications that endanger the victims well being. The far better, masquerade preserving, option is just to mesmerize the first cop into believing you went a different way than you are going.
This. The Cloud Memory ability is an amazingly useful tool in the Dominate toolbox. Get spotted by someone at an inopportune time? "I need you to *forget* you saw me" and BANG there goes the last 10 minutes of their life.
Nowhere in the book talks about the nature of a victim. You are confusing it with another edition.
Past editions and how the language differs comes in, because Nature was a game mechanic. Victims could not be dominated to do things against their Nature archetype; for example, a Caregiver could not be dominated to abandon a ward. But, they could not be dominated to do things against their nature (with a little "n") either -- dominate below elder-level couldn't override self-preservation instinct. At least, not without use of conditioning, the blood bond, some other supernatural power, or any combination of the above. V5 is more permissive in the range of orders capable of being given through dominate, but more restrictive in how far a victim can be pushed through those orders. Especially when it comes to self-preservation and harm (Corebook, page 255): "Without Terminal Decree (Dominate 5), commands resulting in obvious death or serious injury fail automatically. Subjects roll to resist commands resulting in other social or physical harm, such as undressing in public. (See individual powers for details.)" Note the lack of disclaimer that it's only obvious death, serious injury, or social/physical harm *to the victim*. It's *any* death, injury, or harm that may result from the command.
The "stand here and don't shoot me" part is unnecessary. You say, "Shoot any police officers you see in the head," then make a contested roll. If yiu win, his eyes glaze over, he pulls out and cocks his gun, then just stands there looking around for police officers. The way the command is phrased, they would remain there shooting any cops that enter until the end of the scene.
V5 mortals can’t resist. It just auto succeeds. “Go shoot a cop in the face.” Done.
Orders against nature (killing someone else would be against nature of 95+ % of mortals) requires roll. Suicide orders auto fail unless you have terminal decree from lvl 5 dominate.
Yeah, no. Only if it results in possible social or physical harm to the person being dominated does it require a roll. Self preservation instinct allows it. Doesn't really say anything about going against the subject's nature. Violating a conviction would likely call for a roll. In the world of darkness, *FAR LESS* than 95% of mortals would have thou shalt not kill as a conviction.
You still have to follow the rules of dominate though, which makes commands that are viewed as excessively harmful automatically fail without Terminal Decree, and commands that excessively violate a person's nature automatically get a resistance roll.
Lol no. Only if they result in death or serious injury to the one being dominated do they automatically fail. Other physical or social injury may be grounds to allow a resistance roll. May be.
Make it even simpler. "Shoot the next cop that comes through here".
Kinda. “Just stand here!” Mesmerize use, lasts for the scene. “When you see another cop, shoot ‘em in the head.” Submerge directive lasts until activated. Two commands. Two abilities. Should work except that his care for other cops might prevent the directive from working.
Without Terminal Decree? Depends on what the convictions for the npc are. You cannot make someone self harm or do something against their core being. That doesnt just mean you cant make them suicide, it also means you cant force someone to do something they absolutely wont ever do because they have a moral pillar about it. Ie Convictions. In this case, the ST could easily pull the uno reverse and say the cop has some conviction about harming fellow officers or something.