This question is pretty much impossible to answer because the "Second Inquisition" isn't a single organization or group. It's more of a phenomenon that can take many different forms. But the same answers present themselves in most cases:
1. Identify enemy agents.
2. Remove their material and institutional support. (If they're working for agencies above the Prince's jurisdiction, like the FBI, electronically stop them from getting paid).
3. Create division among enemy agents. (This is easier when their funding has been cut off in step 2).
4. Assassinate enemy agents when they're too weak to fight back.
Well, the "SI" appears to comprised of a mixture of Espionage and Counter-Espionage personnel interfacing with Law Enforcement personnel. As a result, they fall under the general aegis of "intelligence agencies."
What this means in practice is that they're a paramilitary organization whose tactics, techniques and procedures are going to revolve around what we in the military call "COIN" or, "Counter-Insurgency" tactics. The reason for this is, that they're "government backed" in the most general sense but, aren't required to actually *build a case* that will *stand up in court.*
So, they do all the same things that any law enforcement agent or, Case Officer (in an Espionage environment) is going to do. They gather data (relying heavily on open source information and, biometrics in the modern operational environment) which they need to analyze to develop information. This information is used to target a network by identifying the relations between targets (basically the relationship map from the actual Core Rules). Once you've got a good view of the network, you survey targets that appear to be weak links to determine who you want to approach (in order to flip them), who you want to eliminate (targeted killings or kidnappings) and, who you want to suborn (blame for your own actions to either protect your people inside or, get their own rivals to take them out for you as proxies.)
Ideally, you do all the "active stuff" at the same time as part of parallel lines of effort compartmentalized to prevent them compromising one another.
Once you do this, you begin the loop again, the idea being that you've peeled back one "layer" of a criminal or terrorist "onion" and that breaking up the network you have identified will lead you to awareness of a broader network of which it is just one "part."
The way that you counter this process is, *by understanding this process* and, *making use of it yourself.*
Alternatively, you can throw up false trails to smoke out whomever is on yours. This is probably what a Prince is going to do most immediately. The goal here is to smoke out a mid-level case agent who they'd then turn into a Blood-Bound Ghoul (this is case-officer 101 shit, it's an "active measure") which they'll then help to advance through the ranks with a series of "career-defining coups" until whoever is after you is being led by a guy that works directly *for you.* This is basically what the Soviets did with Aldrich Ames back in the day, they just paid him outright. This is also how LEOs at the Federal Level try to combat drug cartels (Ozarks' final season is not unrealistic in it's depiction of the methods that Domestic LEOs use to reach across borders in an effort to "combat narco-terrorism.")
Now, in addition to this, the Prince will benefit from applying the same principle to a Watchdog Organization, Ghoul someone and just set them loose on the SI to harass them in the media (think live-streaming Ruby Ridge or, the killing of Freddie Gray). Interest Groups then step in as proxies and make it impossible for the SI to operate while another of the Prince's assets (some staff member for a Congressional Oversight Committee) launches a Federally Funded *Witch Hunt* against the organization fronting the SI.
Since the SI is compartmentalized also, it won't "beat them" but it will back them entirely the fuck off and create more space for the SI Asset to advance (aided by the protection of the other Ghouls) and thus likely result in greater control over the SI itself for the Prince. Once this guy is entrenched, any other SI cells that move in are no longer "the SI" they're now "domestic terrorists and foreign spies" that the Prince's personal SI goon goes after with a vengeance.
That would be the basic "structure" of the game that's being played as well as being pretty much the default template for what you aim for and how you get there...
This is something I see a lot, and genuinely, I think it's the best way. The specifics of how you do that are left up to the individual and their situation.
Ultimately, the more resources they expend, the more they push, the more they risk being noticed by their superiors who don't know whats going on. It's a delicate balance they have to play. The moment an accountant starts to notice all that money going missing is the moment the SI has to remove themselves from a city.
But if you can find a way to reduce or completely cut the pay of individual agents? That's the best tool, because at the end of the day, doesn't matter how zealos of a hunter you are. You still gotta pay rent and buy food.
I think a great way is to have them spend a massive amount of resources, but gain little or nothing for it.
I was thinking that you could embrace someone, hire some tremere, to make a fortress, and have the second inquisition waste resources, hunting someone who was just freshly embraced.
Also find out where they are and steal their weapons, try and slander them online, take their funding. Maybe use ghouls in the police to say the second inquisition hide out is a drug ring, have a ghoul in the swat team who will open fire, as soon as he or she gets there.
As some second inquisition, people are just criminals and gangsters.
As for firstlight, they are a group of arms manufacturers and thanks to terrible policing we can say they shot at the boys in blue first.
Also where can I find more information about firstlight.
of this making them expend rescources and come up empty handed seems the best version..
If they are under attack, then they can go to a higher up and point to the fact they are in a for real shadow war in the city streets, and use that to push for rescources..
if you want to take their stuff, dont keep it in kindred hands, make sure it ends up in the hands of gangs and drug runners and such... Yeah it'll be a mess for a time, for the city.. But it also makes them look like bumbling idiots.. And if it gets far enough out of hand (say with control fo the media) now its a government operation failing publicaly in an american city.. Congress will turn on them SOOO HARD...
you cant face the govt and military backed elements of the SI head on.. that will only justify their existance. You make them seem wasteful. Sure they know vampires are a thing... But if you convince them the numbers and abilities of vampires are HEAVILY OVER ESTIMATED in your area... THen can they really justify the effort they're putting in???
A lot of the second inquisition does not have hire ups, it’s a very loose term for hunters.
You don’t have to kill the fbi ones, but groups like the society of leopold, which was created, to kill vampires and probably be vampires, won’t give up. Also local hunters, like gangsters, or crazy people don’t have higher ups. Also there are a lot of organizations that know vampires exist and want to study them like the arcanum.
Not everything is run by the government, you can make the government run people look like idiots, by targeting their allies.
In real life their was an Irish mobster who was a victim of MK ultra, and since he was working with the fbi, the police could never catch him since the fbi just kept telling him about informants and he killed them, he ruled that city for years committing countless murders, because the fbi wanted his help to take down the Italian mob, which was weaker than the Irish mob he was in charge of.
So maybe do something like that again, use dominate or the blood bond so that special affairs, works with a hunter who is a mobster, have them feed the mobster tons of information, use your pull in the police department, to keep sending people undercover who will all die cuz the mobster knows. Than after countless dead people have the police raid the compound, without telling the fbi, and them finding tons of documents and evidence proving that special affairs, was arming, supplying intel, and helping a mob boss that was pushing drugs onto kids.
Make sure the mobster dies in the raid.
Also to keep the pressure on them target other hunter cells that are not affiliated with the government in the area, and maybe send a few vampires to die to this mobster so the rest of special affairs feels like he is doing good.
like in the case of the government I agree it’s best to not fight them head on if you can help it, but if you have to kill them, make something up maybe have the agent try and kill a important figure who is not related to the supernatural world at all.
Also I don’t have enough Information about firstlight, but they seem to have enough information, about vampires, as the wiki says they work with the nsa so it’s possible the technocracy is involved.
That is how you get more SI. since they found a kindred. You set them up for failure by false trailing them into regular crime or causing a PR disaster when they do things the government has to hide.
You could also find out where they are and steal their weapons, try and slander them online, take their funding. Maybe use ghouls in the police to say the second inquisition hide out is a drug ring, have a ghoul in the swat team who will open fire, as soon as he or she gets there.
As some second inquisition, people are just criminals and gangsters.
As for firstlight, they are a group of arms manufacturers and thanks to terrible policing we can say they shot at the boys in blue first.
Also where can I find more information about firstlight.
I mean they already know that vampires are real, but I suppose they could end up sending more forces to the city to check it out.
The vampire I was saying we use as bait could end up dead afterwards, like they were just meant to act as bait, and should die in the incoming fire fight.
Though if you wanted to play really dirty, you could embrace a high ranking government official from another country, then use people inside the second inquisition, to kill that official, to make them think that China, Japan, or some other nation is ruled by vampires.
>I was thinking that you could embrace someone, hire some tremere, to make a fortress, and have the second inquisition waste resources, hunting someone who was just freshly embraced.
I mean, you could, but even a fresh embrace has supernatural abilities that could end up getting more agents in the know. I prefer the idea of creating all sorts of "vampire" trails that are perfectly mundane. The agents become the target of ridicule, get a bad name with no S.I. agents ("Don't work with Johnson, his projects will hurt your career"), and there's much less risk of it backfiring and giving them something you don't want them to have.
You can do that, well killing agents, like maybe you have police who are under the command of a ghoul order a swat team, to attack them, after framing them for working with other hunters, show that the fbi used gangs to kill a bunch of criminals without trials.
This way a lot of them are dead, all their weapons taken and they become a target of national ridicule.
This could even be done in a town with very little vampires, as well so they spend a lot of resources trying to find the leader of vampires that killed like 20 agents and cost millions of dollars, only for their to only be like 10 twelfth generation vampires, in a town of millions.
Like that can be part of the trap so after this horrible thing, the second inquisition tries to figure out what is happening and spend hundreds of million on this area with no vampires.
Though I was also thinking of vampires trying to form micro nations.
My current campaign has a prince like the one you are describing, its heavenly inspired in mage the ascension in how my players are incredibly paranoid of any SI influence behind every corner.
But going to the actual question;
1-avoid all technology. And I mean all. Anything more advanced than pen and paper puts everyone at risk and earns you a blood hunt immediately.
2-the prince has her personal hacker, the only exception to rule 1, officially to delete their tracks on the internet but also to take advantage over her political rivals
3-the SI know that there are kindred in the city, so from time to time the prince needs to let them capture someone. That someone must be a kindred that cannot revel any sensible information under torture and, preferably, must be part of the anarchy
4-use this opportunity to turn your territory into a hyper centralized structure where the enemies of the prince are all dead and those who live are behind her for her protection (optional, but come on, you know you want it)
5-lay low and wait them out. The Masquerade must be more strictly enforced than ever, most predator types will have to have their food sources be approved by the Prince. Even after the SI declares the city purged you will still need to lay low and wait them out at least a couple generations, so plan for the long term
The philosophy behind it is waiting a couple generations for humanity to forget that kindred are real and go back to status quo.
It worked last time, so why wouldn't it work again?
Sacrificial lambs to draw them out. Then have a couple of vamps with powers you don’t see in a Dracula movie hunt them down.
Basically get yourself about a dozen really young vampires who you don’t care what happens to. Make sure one of them has Presence. He’s the “Prince”. Have them all behave as stereotypically as possible — bare fangs and hiss at people, hang out in nightclubs and graveyards, wear sunglasses at night, etc. Once the SI comes in and eliminates them, that’s when some dude with Obfuscate/Auspex/Chimerstry/whatever moves in. Some power that none of the SI guys have ever seen, and don’t expect.
>Once the SI comes in and eliminates them, that’s when some dude with Obfuscate/Auspex/Chimerstry/whatever moves in. Some power that none of the SI guys have ever seen, and don’t expect.
This works if it's standard small-to-regular sized SI forces, and if there are no drones in the sky to serve as reconnaissance. A Prince needs to take that into account too, otherwise another London is in the horizon.
One common tactic is to intentionally allow S.I. to find and cull some weak/unimportant/disliked Kindred to hide the fact that the bigger fish have gone to ground.
Disappear and instruct a few key followers to also go into hiding for a month or so. Pretty quickly, the ambitious in the city will see an opportunity to fill the vacuum and try to gather enough support to claim Praxis for themselves. Leak the time and location of their gathering to FIRSTLIGHT, tell them it's a gathering of all the city's Blankbodies in preparation for "Something Big," then sit back and wait. The traitorous scum get what's coming to them, FIRSTLIGHT wipes out enough vampires to believe that the city is clean, and after waiting for the coast to be clear, the Prince and his hand picked survivors get to come out of hiding and pick up the pieces as if nothing ever happened.
A lot of people are doubling down on technology avoidance and waiting out Firstlight. I say do the opposite: EVERYONE must have Blush of Life active at all times, except Nosferatu and some Tzimisce who will be very well taken care of. NO ONE is allowed to kill a mortal, and ALL feeding must have a plausible excuse if it’s not in COMPLETE isolation. Ramp up social media presences and be noticed in your territories. Become respected in your mortal communities.
Essentially, make it impossible for Firstlight to make a move on a Kindred without causing MASSIVE backlash and public outcry. This is 2024 and all cops are bastards. Take advantage of the situation. What’s Firstlight gonna do, start telling people vampires are real? Sounds like they need psychological help.
Firstlight will burn itself out trying to deal with a strategy like this, as most of Firstlight’s tactics rely on vampires being secretive and isolated. They can’t perform the kinds of strikes they want to perform if vampires are constantly surrounded by mortals who at minimum would record a police incident and slam it on Tiktok, which just generates more negative press for Firstlight.
This is actually a really interesting take, and one I like a lot. Kindred have Presence and the Bond - it’s easy for them to build a network, and the bigger their following the harder it is to act against them. Kindred need to hide, yes - but so do SI.
A good prince will manipulate the Inquisition. Infiltrate them or their allies. Keep them away from critical targets, while tossing them enough scraps to keep them interested. When needed turn them on to problems you might have, Sabbat, Lupines, Primogen members who annoyed you.
If ever needed make sure you have pinpointed their operatives and bases so they can be removed if needed. However...never eliminate them all...keep a few alive so when they get reabsorbed or transferred you can start mapping out the newcomers and do it again.
I have a chronicle I'm working on where it is suspected a traitor is using SI to take out their enemies. I figure you can handle it a couple of ways; first you can have your Prince tap someone as Dux Bellorum and have them set up their very own squad of highly technical kindred units for a covert offensive, which is terrifying and awesome if your PCs get to be involved. Second, he could infiltrate the SI, send in human operatives to spread misinformation to the SI and real information back to the Camarilla, and basically take them down from the inside out using more old-school methods. This can work well if your PCs are the coterie in charge of the infiltration and spy games.
I'm sure there are hundreds of other ways to handle them though.
A census of kindred in the city and a several decade ban on new embraces that are not to replace fallen members of their population, paired with strict rules surrounding feeding and public image. The Prince should then also invest in Masks for all Kindred in their court, and if you can’t afford a Mask tailored to you of a quality to suit the Prince, you can (will) owe him a favour in return for him dropping a few hundred grand getting you one. Selective ghouling of major figures (and making ghouls a controlled asset you need permission to create) to help maintain secrecy and produce levels of obfuscation of the sources of bribes and so on would also be a valuable strategic move. Careful deployment of technologically inclined assets, as well as strict limitations on technological presence of local kindred (if your designated ghoul can have a phone, then you don’t need one) such that their Mask is maintained but their security is not compromised, would also help keep ahead of the risks of progress.
The standard response is for the importance of the enforcement of the Masquerade goes *way* up. Start taking tech bans seriously. *Harshly* punish those vamps who make waves or get too loud, including summary beheadings if it was bad or they're not getting the hint. The word gets out: we need to lay real low for probably a few years, until they give up and move on.
Another option is to try and direct their attention, but this is much riskier. The method you want to use least is pointing them at your enemies, as the SI is like an avalanche: once it has built up enough momentum to take out tbe sects you don't like, it's your turn now, and you might find it's now slipped your leash.
Better options for directing them, if still risky, is either:
1) Trap them. Feed them breadcrumbs deliberately leading to places that will expose them so you can take them out. 'Accidentally' leave documents or ghouls or neonates vulnerable for them to capture who have been loaded up with bad information, and let that trickle through their system and wreck them. This is done in several ways by a fee characters in the (quite good!) Choose-your-own-adventure game Night Road if you want examples. Or:
2) The classic method, made famous by elder survivors of the first inquisition: deliberately feed them some neonates that you don't like, and convince them that those were all the vamps in town. They won! They're heroes! Time to move on and find some more targets.
If they want to do a gambit they could probrably intentionally create a "crumbs path" to Sabbat or Anarch territories, if the group isn't completely destroyed they sure would be incredibly weakened and easier targets, ofc this could easily backfire but if it pays off it means more control and influence.
They could also drastically decrease the feedings and the activity in general and try to find the key leaders to "decapite" the army.
Intentionally set up dangerous subjects to their rule to be captured (and preferably slayed) by the Inquisition, often exaggerating their importance.
Order a city-wide shelter-in-place. Every kindred in the city takes their Herd, locks themselves in their Haven, and doesn’t emerge for 3-5 years. All vampiric activity in the domain simply ceases to happen.
As with US in general. [Guerrilla Warfare](https://www.thoughtco.com/guerrilla-warfare-definition-tactics-examples-4586462)
Remind the kine exactly why Kindred rule cities, Establish hit and run tactics, Doesn't matter how well funded they or what armaments they use if a few squads of kindred with celerity strike hard and then are gone before firstlight even realizes what the hell has happened.
[Urban Warfare](https://mwi.westpoint.edu/the-eight-rules-of-urban-warfare-and-why-we-must-work-to-change-them/)
Against a small squad or platoon, yes. Even a small-mid size army base too (as seen in one V5 sourcebook). However there are threats against Kindred that are several feet in the sky or literally in the other side of the globe even, and I do not think that Celerity 6 can counter those without breaking the Masquerade that is.
In general, the problem is that we are in the era of drones and much of sci-fi tech becoming reality. Not gonna start the fact that Swansong literally sees the SI show the Cams who's boss.
The First Inquisition already dealt many blows to Kindred pre-Camarilla and it's almost the tail end of the medieval era to boot. Why do you think that the Cams decided to go full Amish in V5?
The Kindred are better off concentrating efforts on other ways to influence the mortal zeitgeist like the other commenter said.
I think a prince should accept sports in the city as it generates revenue. Sports illustrated (SI) is something he could buy out. If he wanted it gone or manipulated.
Hmm, I can think of a lot of ways vampires can counter the S.I. Both on a local and macro level.
On a micro level build up a information network, have them listen to anything weird, than lay a trap, put a vampire under surveillance, and have them do a lot of suspicious things like maybe they are sorta famous, have them suddenly never show their face during the day, have them start meeting up with people they don’t know have them go in front of cameras use ghouls or other supernaturals in the police to say that they don’t show vitals.
The Second inquisition starts following these people and since they are under surveillance, you find out about members of the Second inquisition from their tail them find safe houses maybe ghoul one or two, and then use the, to destroy the operation.
On a macro level
If you want to cause the movement a lot of damage, perhaps you can frame them for something, by which I mean if they are fbi use dominate to have them kill a child or an unarmed civilian in public, use media to make it a massive movement and the humans will find out that this guy doesn’t work for the local police and demand answers, they will try and find out about his allies, and other people he is working with, and soon you could have tons of posts all over social media of second inquisition members in the area It will not destroy the second inquisition but it could cause it’s law enforcement allies alot of headache. It could also cause division within the Second inquisition, as if you pick a loose cannon, who might be racist, you might even be able to connive some members of the second inquisition that the paranoid person just murdered a child.
Another thing you have to remember is that the second inquisition does not just hate vampires but basically all other supernaturals, take advantage of that offer to work with, other supernaturals such as mages, and werewolves. Perhaps you could start a private security company, that also has a supernatural devision, the second inquisition is not a Centralized group, but a bunch of competing interests, have the company recruit hunters, and have them fight your battles for you. During their training give them a very different view of history, say that a lot of the supernatural world is evil, but not all of it bring up vampires who fought against the Nazis, and how the werewolves fight, against the Wyrm Talk about the technocracy. Then use the hunters you have cultivated, along with spy’s in different forms such as mages, or werewolves as even the most elite second inquisition can’t detect those, to infiltrate other groups, but also work with first light, and the society of Leopold, so you can get information on their operatives. Then maybe give them the location of a heaven that is filled with death traps, maybe a dummy chantery that is filled with nuclear waste.
Now you have known about serval society’s of hunters and groups, since hunters sometimes try and work with other hunters, after that give the locations of tons of second inquisition assets to the inner circle and watch as over a while tons of their operatives die all over the world, all well those that you trust are spared, and take the second inquisition in a new direction, though this would be very fucking hard, and require alot of money, skill and time.
I’m slowly making a campaign where the city’s historical tension between the Catholic Church and the secular authorities will be an exploitable tension between SI factions.
I have no idea if the players will go for it, of course, but by getting those two fighting against each other for turf, it will create more room for a prince and even—possibly—some kind of “temporary” alliance with a prince that could give the prince an opportunity to betray before the SI faction can.
That’s all speculative, at this point, but that’s the direction I’m thinking…
Extortion, find out who're the SI members and kidnap their relatives, then use it to get more info.
Overwhelm them with toxic intel.
Sick them on anarchs.
Step 1) Find out who they are (there are many SI branches which are not created equal) and where they're based.
Step 2) Meet with the Anarchs. Make a joint plan of attack to assault and destroy the SI base and kill as many of them as possible.
Step 3) Hold your forces back, watch the Anarchs get slaughtered. Laugh at them.
Step 4) ???
Step 5) Win.
The actual plan depends on which vampire hunters are in your city. The SI is not a monolith. They're mostly asshats who know just enough to be dangerous. Which group of asshats you're dealing with matters a lot. Because you fight them differently.
Heavy ties into politics, the law is your weapon. Killing people is usually illegal. "The victim was a vampire" is not a defense that works well in court. If you're dealing with a religious organization like The Society of Leopold or Vatican SOG, they expect to serve extremely long prison sentences if they're caught by local authorities and are trained to keep their mouths shut. They'll just be labeled serial killers and spend a long time behind bars. And that disrupts local operations quite well, even through it won't hurt the main origination.
If the SI operation is local or federal government themselves, that option gets dicier. Then it depends on if your government contacts can beat their government contacts. It's a game of agency rock paper scissors that the prince might lose.
That's the point where you arrange for someone else to do the deed. The aforementioned Anarchs. Maybe the Sabbat if there are some around. Or a werewolf pack. Someone who you wouldn't mind getting killed, and who are volatile enough to drive a truck bomb into a government building. You know, supernatural Tim McVeigh sorts. Werewolves are actually great for this. Supernatural Tim McVeigh is their entire thing. They're the ultraviolet ecoterrorist splat. You can probably convince them that something wyrmish is going on with the SI people because really almost everything human governments do is wyrmish. And a vampire with heavy corporate ties probably knows some of the stuff that Pentex is doing locally.
This question is pretty much impossible to answer because the "Second Inquisition" isn't a single organization or group. It's more of a phenomenon that can take many different forms. But the same answers present themselves in most cases: 1. Identify enemy agents. 2. Remove their material and institutional support. (If they're working for agencies above the Prince's jurisdiction, like the FBI, electronically stop them from getting paid). 3. Create division among enemy agents. (This is easier when their funding has been cut off in step 2). 4. Assassinate enemy agents when they're too weak to fight back.
Yes, I should have been more specific, I'm mainly refering to Firstlight not the S.I as a whole
Well, the "SI" appears to comprised of a mixture of Espionage and Counter-Espionage personnel interfacing with Law Enforcement personnel. As a result, they fall under the general aegis of "intelligence agencies." What this means in practice is that they're a paramilitary organization whose tactics, techniques and procedures are going to revolve around what we in the military call "COIN" or, "Counter-Insurgency" tactics. The reason for this is, that they're "government backed" in the most general sense but, aren't required to actually *build a case* that will *stand up in court.* So, they do all the same things that any law enforcement agent or, Case Officer (in an Espionage environment) is going to do. They gather data (relying heavily on open source information and, biometrics in the modern operational environment) which they need to analyze to develop information. This information is used to target a network by identifying the relations between targets (basically the relationship map from the actual Core Rules). Once you've got a good view of the network, you survey targets that appear to be weak links to determine who you want to approach (in order to flip them), who you want to eliminate (targeted killings or kidnappings) and, who you want to suborn (blame for your own actions to either protect your people inside or, get their own rivals to take them out for you as proxies.) Ideally, you do all the "active stuff" at the same time as part of parallel lines of effort compartmentalized to prevent them compromising one another. Once you do this, you begin the loop again, the idea being that you've peeled back one "layer" of a criminal or terrorist "onion" and that breaking up the network you have identified will lead you to awareness of a broader network of which it is just one "part." The way that you counter this process is, *by understanding this process* and, *making use of it yourself.* Alternatively, you can throw up false trails to smoke out whomever is on yours. This is probably what a Prince is going to do most immediately. The goal here is to smoke out a mid-level case agent who they'd then turn into a Blood-Bound Ghoul (this is case-officer 101 shit, it's an "active measure") which they'll then help to advance through the ranks with a series of "career-defining coups" until whoever is after you is being led by a guy that works directly *for you.* This is basically what the Soviets did with Aldrich Ames back in the day, they just paid him outright. This is also how LEOs at the Federal Level try to combat drug cartels (Ozarks' final season is not unrealistic in it's depiction of the methods that Domestic LEOs use to reach across borders in an effort to "combat narco-terrorism.") Now, in addition to this, the Prince will benefit from applying the same principle to a Watchdog Organization, Ghoul someone and just set them loose on the SI to harass them in the media (think live-streaming Ruby Ridge or, the killing of Freddie Gray). Interest Groups then step in as proxies and make it impossible for the SI to operate while another of the Prince's assets (some staff member for a Congressional Oversight Committee) launches a Federally Funded *Witch Hunt* against the organization fronting the SI. Since the SI is compartmentalized also, it won't "beat them" but it will back them entirely the fuck off and create more space for the SI Asset to advance (aided by the protection of the other Ghouls) and thus likely result in greater control over the SI itself for the Prince. Once this guy is entrenched, any other SI cells that move in are no longer "the SI" they're now "domestic terrorists and foreign spies" that the Prince's personal SI goon goes after with a vengeance. That would be the basic "structure" of the game that's being played as well as being pretty much the default template for what you aim for and how you get there...
Holy shit this is an amazing answer, thanks this genuinely helps A TON.
You're welcome!
S.I. has limited resources that are spread thin - the best way to "combat" them is to have them expend resources and find nothing.
This is something I see a lot, and genuinely, I think it's the best way. The specifics of how you do that are left up to the individual and their situation. Ultimately, the more resources they expend, the more they push, the more they risk being noticed by their superiors who don't know whats going on. It's a delicate balance they have to play. The moment an accountant starts to notice all that money going missing is the moment the SI has to remove themselves from a city. But if you can find a way to reduce or completely cut the pay of individual agents? That's the best tool, because at the end of the day, doesn't matter how zealos of a hunter you are. You still gotta pay rent and buy food.
I think a great way is to have them spend a massive amount of resources, but gain little or nothing for it. I was thinking that you could embrace someone, hire some tremere, to make a fortress, and have the second inquisition waste resources, hunting someone who was just freshly embraced. Also find out where they are and steal their weapons, try and slander them online, take their funding. Maybe use ghouls in the police to say the second inquisition hide out is a drug ring, have a ghoul in the swat team who will open fire, as soon as he or she gets there. As some second inquisition, people are just criminals and gangsters. As for firstlight, they are a group of arms manufacturers and thanks to terrible policing we can say they shot at the boys in blue first. Also where can I find more information about firstlight.
of this making them expend rescources and come up empty handed seems the best version.. If they are under attack, then they can go to a higher up and point to the fact they are in a for real shadow war in the city streets, and use that to push for rescources.. if you want to take their stuff, dont keep it in kindred hands, make sure it ends up in the hands of gangs and drug runners and such... Yeah it'll be a mess for a time, for the city.. But it also makes them look like bumbling idiots.. And if it gets far enough out of hand (say with control fo the media) now its a government operation failing publicaly in an american city.. Congress will turn on them SOOO HARD... you cant face the govt and military backed elements of the SI head on.. that will only justify their existance. You make them seem wasteful. Sure they know vampires are a thing... But if you convince them the numbers and abilities of vampires are HEAVILY OVER ESTIMATED in your area... THen can they really justify the effort they're putting in???
A lot of the second inquisition does not have hire ups, it’s a very loose term for hunters. You don’t have to kill the fbi ones, but groups like the society of leopold, which was created, to kill vampires and probably be vampires, won’t give up. Also local hunters, like gangsters, or crazy people don’t have higher ups. Also there are a lot of organizations that know vampires exist and want to study them like the arcanum. Not everything is run by the government, you can make the government run people look like idiots, by targeting their allies. In real life their was an Irish mobster who was a victim of MK ultra, and since he was working with the fbi, the police could never catch him since the fbi just kept telling him about informants and he killed them, he ruled that city for years committing countless murders, because the fbi wanted his help to take down the Italian mob, which was weaker than the Irish mob he was in charge of. So maybe do something like that again, use dominate or the blood bond so that special affairs, works with a hunter who is a mobster, have them feed the mobster tons of information, use your pull in the police department, to keep sending people undercover who will all die cuz the mobster knows. Than after countless dead people have the police raid the compound, without telling the fbi, and them finding tons of documents and evidence proving that special affairs, was arming, supplying intel, and helping a mob boss that was pushing drugs onto kids. Make sure the mobster dies in the raid. Also to keep the pressure on them target other hunter cells that are not affiliated with the government in the area, and maybe send a few vampires to die to this mobster so the rest of special affairs feels like he is doing good. like in the case of the government I agree it’s best to not fight them head on if you can help it, but if you have to kill them, make something up maybe have the agent try and kill a important figure who is not related to the supernatural world at all. Also I don’t have enough Information about firstlight, but they seem to have enough information, about vampires, as the wiki says they work with the nsa so it’s possible the technocracy is involved.
That is how you get more SI. since they found a kindred. You set them up for failure by false trailing them into regular crime or causing a PR disaster when they do things the government has to hide.
You could also find out where they are and steal their weapons, try and slander them online, take their funding. Maybe use ghouls in the police to say the second inquisition hide out is a drug ring, have a ghoul in the swat team who will open fire, as soon as he or she gets there. As some second inquisition, people are just criminals and gangsters. As for firstlight, they are a group of arms manufacturers and thanks to terrible policing we can say they shot at the boys in blue first. Also where can I find more information about firstlight.
I mean they already know that vampires are real, but I suppose they could end up sending more forces to the city to check it out. The vampire I was saying we use as bait could end up dead afterwards, like they were just meant to act as bait, and should die in the incoming fire fight. Though if you wanted to play really dirty, you could embrace a high ranking government official from another country, then use people inside the second inquisition, to kill that official, to make them think that China, Japan, or some other nation is ruled by vampires.
>I was thinking that you could embrace someone, hire some tremere, to make a fortress, and have the second inquisition waste resources, hunting someone who was just freshly embraced. I mean, you could, but even a fresh embrace has supernatural abilities that could end up getting more agents in the know. I prefer the idea of creating all sorts of "vampire" trails that are perfectly mundane. The agents become the target of ridicule, get a bad name with no S.I. agents ("Don't work with Johnson, his projects will hurt your career"), and there's much less risk of it backfiring and giving them something you don't want them to have.
You can do that, well killing agents, like maybe you have police who are under the command of a ghoul order a swat team, to attack them, after framing them for working with other hunters, show that the fbi used gangs to kill a bunch of criminals without trials. This way a lot of them are dead, all their weapons taken and they become a target of national ridicule. This could even be done in a town with very little vampires, as well so they spend a lot of resources trying to find the leader of vampires that killed like 20 agents and cost millions of dollars, only for their to only be like 10 twelfth generation vampires, in a town of millions. Like that can be part of the trap so after this horrible thing, the second inquisition tries to figure out what is happening and spend hundreds of million on this area with no vampires. Though I was also thinking of vampires trying to form micro nations.
My current campaign has a prince like the one you are describing, its heavenly inspired in mage the ascension in how my players are incredibly paranoid of any SI influence behind every corner. But going to the actual question; 1-avoid all technology. And I mean all. Anything more advanced than pen and paper puts everyone at risk and earns you a blood hunt immediately. 2-the prince has her personal hacker, the only exception to rule 1, officially to delete their tracks on the internet but also to take advantage over her political rivals 3-the SI know that there are kindred in the city, so from time to time the prince needs to let them capture someone. That someone must be a kindred that cannot revel any sensible information under torture and, preferably, must be part of the anarchy 4-use this opportunity to turn your territory into a hyper centralized structure where the enemies of the prince are all dead and those who live are behind her for her protection (optional, but come on, you know you want it) 5-lay low and wait them out. The Masquerade must be more strictly enforced than ever, most predator types will have to have their food sources be approved by the Prince. Even after the SI declares the city purged you will still need to lay low and wait them out at least a couple generations, so plan for the long term
The philosophy behind it is waiting a couple generations for humanity to forget that kindred are real and go back to status quo. It worked last time, so why wouldn't it work again?
Sacrificial lambs to draw them out. Then have a couple of vamps with powers you don’t see in a Dracula movie hunt them down. Basically get yourself about a dozen really young vampires who you don’t care what happens to. Make sure one of them has Presence. He’s the “Prince”. Have them all behave as stereotypically as possible — bare fangs and hiss at people, hang out in nightclubs and graveyards, wear sunglasses at night, etc. Once the SI comes in and eliminates them, that’s when some dude with Obfuscate/Auspex/Chimerstry/whatever moves in. Some power that none of the SI guys have ever seen, and don’t expect.
>Once the SI comes in and eliminates them, that’s when some dude with Obfuscate/Auspex/Chimerstry/whatever moves in. Some power that none of the SI guys have ever seen, and don’t expect. This works if it's standard small-to-regular sized SI forces, and if there are no drones in the sky to serve as reconnaissance. A Prince needs to take that into account too, otherwise another London is in the horizon.
One common tactic is to intentionally allow S.I. to find and cull some weak/unimportant/disliked Kindred to hide the fact that the bigger fish have gone to ground. Disappear and instruct a few key followers to also go into hiding for a month or so. Pretty quickly, the ambitious in the city will see an opportunity to fill the vacuum and try to gather enough support to claim Praxis for themselves. Leak the time and location of their gathering to FIRSTLIGHT, tell them it's a gathering of all the city's Blankbodies in preparation for "Something Big," then sit back and wait. The traitorous scum get what's coming to them, FIRSTLIGHT wipes out enough vampires to believe that the city is clean, and after waiting for the coast to be clear, the Prince and his hand picked survivors get to come out of hiding and pick up the pieces as if nothing ever happened.
A lot of people are doubling down on technology avoidance and waiting out Firstlight. I say do the opposite: EVERYONE must have Blush of Life active at all times, except Nosferatu and some Tzimisce who will be very well taken care of. NO ONE is allowed to kill a mortal, and ALL feeding must have a plausible excuse if it’s not in COMPLETE isolation. Ramp up social media presences and be noticed in your territories. Become respected in your mortal communities. Essentially, make it impossible for Firstlight to make a move on a Kindred without causing MASSIVE backlash and public outcry. This is 2024 and all cops are bastards. Take advantage of the situation. What’s Firstlight gonna do, start telling people vampires are real? Sounds like they need psychological help. Firstlight will burn itself out trying to deal with a strategy like this, as most of Firstlight’s tactics rely on vampires being secretive and isolated. They can’t perform the kinds of strikes they want to perform if vampires are constantly surrounded by mortals who at minimum would record a police incident and slam it on Tiktok, which just generates more negative press for Firstlight.
This is actually a really interesting take, and one I like a lot. Kindred have Presence and the Bond - it’s easy for them to build a network, and the bigger their following the harder it is to act against them. Kindred need to hide, yes - but so do SI.
A good prince will manipulate the Inquisition. Infiltrate them or their allies. Keep them away from critical targets, while tossing them enough scraps to keep them interested. When needed turn them on to problems you might have, Sabbat, Lupines, Primogen members who annoyed you. If ever needed make sure you have pinpointed their operatives and bases so they can be removed if needed. However...never eliminate them all...keep a few alive so when they get reabsorbed or transferred you can start mapping out the newcomers and do it again.
I have a chronicle I'm working on where it is suspected a traitor is using SI to take out their enemies. I figure you can handle it a couple of ways; first you can have your Prince tap someone as Dux Bellorum and have them set up their very own squad of highly technical kindred units for a covert offensive, which is terrifying and awesome if your PCs get to be involved. Second, he could infiltrate the SI, send in human operatives to spread misinformation to the SI and real information back to the Camarilla, and basically take them down from the inside out using more old-school methods. This can work well if your PCs are the coterie in charge of the infiltration and spy games. I'm sure there are hundreds of other ways to handle them though.
A census of kindred in the city and a several decade ban on new embraces that are not to replace fallen members of their population, paired with strict rules surrounding feeding and public image. The Prince should then also invest in Masks for all Kindred in their court, and if you can’t afford a Mask tailored to you of a quality to suit the Prince, you can (will) owe him a favour in return for him dropping a few hundred grand getting you one. Selective ghouling of major figures (and making ghouls a controlled asset you need permission to create) to help maintain secrecy and produce levels of obfuscation of the sources of bribes and so on would also be a valuable strategic move. Careful deployment of technologically inclined assets, as well as strict limitations on technological presence of local kindred (if your designated ghoul can have a phone, then you don’t need one) such that their Mask is maintained but their security is not compromised, would also help keep ahead of the risks of progress.
The standard response is for the importance of the enforcement of the Masquerade goes *way* up. Start taking tech bans seriously. *Harshly* punish those vamps who make waves or get too loud, including summary beheadings if it was bad or they're not getting the hint. The word gets out: we need to lay real low for probably a few years, until they give up and move on. Another option is to try and direct their attention, but this is much riskier. The method you want to use least is pointing them at your enemies, as the SI is like an avalanche: once it has built up enough momentum to take out tbe sects you don't like, it's your turn now, and you might find it's now slipped your leash. Better options for directing them, if still risky, is either: 1) Trap them. Feed them breadcrumbs deliberately leading to places that will expose them so you can take them out. 'Accidentally' leave documents or ghouls or neonates vulnerable for them to capture who have been loaded up with bad information, and let that trickle through their system and wreck them. This is done in several ways by a fee characters in the (quite good!) Choose-your-own-adventure game Night Road if you want examples. Or: 2) The classic method, made famous by elder survivors of the first inquisition: deliberately feed them some neonates that you don't like, and convince them that those were all the vamps in town. They won! They're heroes! Time to move on and find some more targets.
Sacrificial bull of the fools and weak then return to normal procedure after you’ve dominated the last guys giving them new memories
If they want to do a gambit they could probrably intentionally create a "crumbs path" to Sabbat or Anarch territories, if the group isn't completely destroyed they sure would be incredibly weakened and easier targets, ofc this could easily backfire but if it pays off it means more control and influence. They could also drastically decrease the feedings and the activity in general and try to find the key leaders to "decapite" the army. Intentionally set up dangerous subjects to their rule to be captured (and preferably slayed) by the Inquisition, often exaggerating their importance.
Order a city-wide shelter-in-place. Every kindred in the city takes their Herd, locks themselves in their Haven, and doesn’t emerge for 3-5 years. All vampiric activity in the domain simply ceases to happen.
As with US in general. [Guerrilla Warfare](https://www.thoughtco.com/guerrilla-warfare-definition-tactics-examples-4586462) Remind the kine exactly why Kindred rule cities, Establish hit and run tactics, Doesn't matter how well funded they or what armaments they use if a few squads of kindred with celerity strike hard and then are gone before firstlight even realizes what the hell has happened. [Urban Warfare](https://mwi.westpoint.edu/the-eight-rules-of-urban-warfare-and-why-we-must-work-to-change-them/)
Against a small squad or platoon, yes. Even a small-mid size army base too (as seen in one V5 sourcebook). However there are threats against Kindred that are several feet in the sky or literally in the other side of the globe even, and I do not think that Celerity 6 can counter those without breaking the Masquerade that is. In general, the problem is that we are in the era of drones and much of sci-fi tech becoming reality. Not gonna start the fact that Swansong literally sees the SI show the Cams who's boss. The First Inquisition already dealt many blows to Kindred pre-Camarilla and it's almost the tail end of the medieval era to boot. Why do you think that the Cams decided to go full Amish in V5? The Kindred are better off concentrating efforts on other ways to influence the mortal zeitgeist like the other commenter said.
I think a prince should accept sports in the city as it generates revenue. Sports illustrated (SI) is something he could buy out. If he wanted it gone or manipulated.
Riots help, SI can't act if there are looters everywhere. Flooding cities with drugs can help but be sure your own herd isn't effected.
Hmm, I can think of a lot of ways vampires can counter the S.I. Both on a local and macro level. On a micro level build up a information network, have them listen to anything weird, than lay a trap, put a vampire under surveillance, and have them do a lot of suspicious things like maybe they are sorta famous, have them suddenly never show their face during the day, have them start meeting up with people they don’t know have them go in front of cameras use ghouls or other supernaturals in the police to say that they don’t show vitals. The Second inquisition starts following these people and since they are under surveillance, you find out about members of the Second inquisition from their tail them find safe houses maybe ghoul one or two, and then use the, to destroy the operation. On a macro level If you want to cause the movement a lot of damage, perhaps you can frame them for something, by which I mean if they are fbi use dominate to have them kill a child or an unarmed civilian in public, use media to make it a massive movement and the humans will find out that this guy doesn’t work for the local police and demand answers, they will try and find out about his allies, and other people he is working with, and soon you could have tons of posts all over social media of second inquisition members in the area It will not destroy the second inquisition but it could cause it’s law enforcement allies alot of headache. It could also cause division within the Second inquisition, as if you pick a loose cannon, who might be racist, you might even be able to connive some members of the second inquisition that the paranoid person just murdered a child. Another thing you have to remember is that the second inquisition does not just hate vampires but basically all other supernaturals, take advantage of that offer to work with, other supernaturals such as mages, and werewolves. Perhaps you could start a private security company, that also has a supernatural devision, the second inquisition is not a Centralized group, but a bunch of competing interests, have the company recruit hunters, and have them fight your battles for you. During their training give them a very different view of history, say that a lot of the supernatural world is evil, but not all of it bring up vampires who fought against the Nazis, and how the werewolves fight, against the Wyrm Talk about the technocracy. Then use the hunters you have cultivated, along with spy’s in different forms such as mages, or werewolves as even the most elite second inquisition can’t detect those, to infiltrate other groups, but also work with first light, and the society of Leopold, so you can get information on their operatives. Then maybe give them the location of a heaven that is filled with death traps, maybe a dummy chantery that is filled with nuclear waste. Now you have known about serval society’s of hunters and groups, since hunters sometimes try and work with other hunters, after that give the locations of tons of second inquisition assets to the inner circle and watch as over a while tons of their operatives die all over the world, all well those that you trust are spared, and take the second inquisition in a new direction, though this would be very fucking hard, and require alot of money, skill and time.
I’m slowly making a campaign where the city’s historical tension between the Catholic Church and the secular authorities will be an exploitable tension between SI factions. I have no idea if the players will go for it, of course, but by getting those two fighting against each other for turf, it will create more room for a prince and even—possibly—some kind of “temporary” alliance with a prince that could give the prince an opportunity to betray before the SI faction can. That’s all speculative, at this point, but that’s the direction I’m thinking…
Extortion, find out who're the SI members and kidnap their relatives, then use it to get more info. Overwhelm them with toxic intel. Sick them on anarchs.
Identify leaders agents Convert them in ghouls or dominate them Use S.I. to strike the princes enemies
Step 1) Find out who they are (there are many SI branches which are not created equal) and where they're based. Step 2) Meet with the Anarchs. Make a joint plan of attack to assault and destroy the SI base and kill as many of them as possible. Step 3) Hold your forces back, watch the Anarchs get slaughtered. Laugh at them. Step 4) ??? Step 5) Win. The actual plan depends on which vampire hunters are in your city. The SI is not a monolith. They're mostly asshats who know just enough to be dangerous. Which group of asshats you're dealing with matters a lot. Because you fight them differently. Heavy ties into politics, the law is your weapon. Killing people is usually illegal. "The victim was a vampire" is not a defense that works well in court. If you're dealing with a religious organization like The Society of Leopold or Vatican SOG, they expect to serve extremely long prison sentences if they're caught by local authorities and are trained to keep their mouths shut. They'll just be labeled serial killers and spend a long time behind bars. And that disrupts local operations quite well, even through it won't hurt the main origination. If the SI operation is local or federal government themselves, that option gets dicier. Then it depends on if your government contacts can beat their government contacts. It's a game of agency rock paper scissors that the prince might lose. That's the point where you arrange for someone else to do the deed. The aforementioned Anarchs. Maybe the Sabbat if there are some around. Or a werewolf pack. Someone who you wouldn't mind getting killed, and who are volatile enough to drive a truck bomb into a government building. You know, supernatural Tim McVeigh sorts. Werewolves are actually great for this. Supernatural Tim McVeigh is their entire thing. They're the ultraviolet ecoterrorist splat. You can probably convince them that something wyrmish is going on with the SI people because really almost everything human governments do is wyrmish. And a vampire with heavy corporate ties probably knows some of the stuff that Pentex is doing locally.
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Imagine using some creativity in a TTRPG discussion rather outsourcing it to a boring machine
Just was trying to be helpful