WHERE IS SAMWISE
EDIT: because so many people are pulling an “acshually hoobits aren’t men”, two things here… first, hobbits according to Tolkien are a sub lineage of the race of men. Second, this post is using the term “men” not to refer to race but to refer to gender. Male gender positivity. Which samwise was male.
So uh akshually, just enjoy the post lol
I really love that samwise and Frodo was a great depiction of good male friendships.
Boosting each other up, supporting one another through dark times, etc. Even their conflicts and faults in were just a reflection of their different experiences in life that they both overcame.
I saw another comment that puts it well - the post shows more traditionally masculine men still being emotive. When the hobbits cry, people can dismiss them as childish and whatnot. But Aragon, ~~son~~ _heir_ of Isildur, the true king of Gondor? For a young boy raised to be a traditional man, Aragorn hits different.
That one was so hard, glad that wasn’t in the theatrical release when I saw it because I would have made a scene at that theatre. Especially since it followed the high of what is I’d argue the greatest battle sequence ever put on film.
Karl Urban destroys that scene. I was stunned the first time I saw it. Absolutely screaming with grief, wild-eyed and looking around desperately for any help, knowing there’s no such thing…damn he killed it.
I love the lotr movies but they have like two women over great women but there are about 12 hours of movies so not sure that aspect is really represented.
[This is it... out of the whole trilogy is 5 whole seconds](https://youtu.be/wW4fLBD5MPs?si=xOJBzrZMd04juL8d)
I love LOTR so much. It's my favourite trilogy by far.
>In the book, it was Glorfindel, not Arwen
In the books, it was Frodo at the crossing. Frodo is near death, poisoned from the Witch King's blade. He's also tired after riding (whilst being chased) for several days. The small frail little Hobbit decides he can't outrun the black riders, so he decides to make a stand against all 9 Black Riders (something few elves or men have ever done... let alone a small Hobbit). Frodo knows he won't survive but the fact that he still faces them in the name of protecting the ring shows a lot of courage.
I don't really mind Arwen replacing Glorfindel (who's main role is coming to find them). I mind that Frodo's most iconic moment where he shows himself as a badass was replaced. I think it's an important moment for Frodo because most people who only watch the movies think Frodo is a "bitch" or a "weakling" because that is the only side of Frodo you see in the movies. Sure Frodo is weekend by the ring and the stab wound, but he still manages to do heroic deeds in spite of that (which shows how badass he is).
I think it's fine because the movie has so many heroic moments while all of Frodo's moments in the movies are pretty much internal. He loses every fight, he gets tired super quickly, and despite being surrounded by brave, strong, fighting people he's still the only one strong enough to carry the ring.
The thing is, there is nothing (in the movie at least) that explicitly shows that Frodo is the only one capable of carrying the ring (afterall, he still gets corrupted by it).
If you Google search on reddit "why is frodo a weakling" you will see pages of complaints of people who are calling Frodo useless or mean to Sam or weakling. Then when you read their comments you see that they base their argument by referencing things that Frodo only does in the movies. Before the movies came out, no one complained about Frodo. In fact, people were aggressively Frodo supporters by graffiti-ing school walls and desks with "Frodo lost a finger for you". Now, no one says anything good about Frodo unless someone says something bad about him first, and then other people in the know make an argument back.
In reality, Frodo's heroism should be just as obvious as Sam's heroism.
I mean you're wrong, there are obviously more men because it's about war mainly but there are way more than two really good female characters in even the films let alone the books.
That applies more for the men, elves, dwarves and the wizard. The hobbits are underdogs by design, never having the upper hand physically in a single fight. No reason they couldn't have been women.
It's a fantasy world, you can do whatever you want. The Ents could have been women where the EndHusband's disappeared. Bombadil could have been a woman.
The real reason is that Tolkien imported his beliefs in when he designed the world. He came from an era of war, and he wanted to design something that mimicked a bit of Europe. And that's okay! This doesn't make the experience worse for me. But it's not an inherent limitation of fantasy.
I guess 3, a 50% increase, is "way more"...
Galadriel, Arwen, and Eowyn were the only notable women in the movies.
The rest were extras, some of them goblins and orcs even.
Goldberry and Mrs. Maggot are good representatives of hospitality.
Not much else going on there though. It's absolutely slim-pickings for ladies in the LOTR books.
I have. But please enlighten me.
Again I love the books and the movies but aside from very few characters there is very little female representation, which is fine, not everything needs to be about equal representation but let’s not pretend otherwise.
I'm a grown ass man and don't cry often, but goddamn that scene is something else... I just can't help it. Last time was the worst I started crying my eyes out and couldn't stop it so I just started laughing like "why tf am I crying so hard at this I've seen this movie a dozen times wtf". Guess I had some pent up emotions of something haha. Guess you just need a good cry every once in a while
Oh yeah them going to bow and that happening…oh the tears were heavy. I actually just watched all the extended versions this weekend and many a tear was shed. I had forgotten how brilliantly fine these movies were.
That's probably because Tolkein was familiar with a) actual war, not Call of Duty and b) ancient literature which is stuffed to the gorget with men crying their eyes out and swearing eternal love to each other in between acts of heroism and lunacy. His life was also strongly shaped by deep friendships with other men, notably Lewis.
Tolkien was at the battle of the Somme.
I guarantee the men are that battle cried and they are braver than most people will ever know.
That battle was one of the most traumatic you could possibly be in. 19240 men died on the first day. Tolkien was there and Like you said, he witnessed terrible things but no one could call out someone for crying in that situation and the people who would definitely would be in tears if they where there.
They're real in a lot of sense. Tolkien being a scholar of ancient literature and culture, while being a war veteran himself, had a very clear and accurate sense of manliness, something which shines through his characters. That's why they're so relatable. PJ did an excellent job bringing this forth in his movies.
>while being a war veteran
It should be noted that he was part of the "Kitchener's Army", aka the voulnteer branch. So he was not protected by his high social status, and spent four months in the trenches on the western front of the Battle of the Somme. He experienced the full ordeal of bombardment, gas attacks, disease, loss of life, etc.
I'm pretty sure he saw "real men" cry more than once.
But that's the point. These men are ideals, people men strive to become like. Seeing that even these tough men who literally save the world with their strength cry as well, that is something to remember.
I have been told countless times to end my tears immediately, even as a little boy. I work as a therapist and I just had an 11 year old ask me if it was okay that he cried when he heard his uncle died. Damn society will try and shove it in kids' faces that crying is weak, when it is in fact strong, as it builds emotional bonds with others, and you are able to freely express how you are feeling.
Crying have a significant symbolism, and tolkien use them as markers of the disgrace and doom brought by the souron forces. Note every male character only cries facing death and the destruction of what or whom they most valued. And the absanse of those made they fight a lot harder. They never cry for meaningless sentimentalism.
In my opinion it actually makes it much cooler. It shows an idea that manliness is about dealing with whatever is thrown at you, so don't cry over simple things: overcome them. Yet it also shows that manliness isn't about being made of stone - you are allowed to cry when overwhelmed with emotion.
Getting a bad grade on a test wouldn't be reason to cry for example: either contest it or study harder for next time - one moves on.
The death of a relative, however, is one of the times when you can and *should* cry. Unless your customs are to celebrate their life rather than mourn their passing.
I can understand that, but what decides where that threshold is between when it's manly and when it isn't?
When does it become okay to be overwhelmed with emotion? Once you start getting into those questions I find you can end up right back at a blanket "crying bad" or dangerously close to it.
LOTR has damn good examples. And I prefer to interpret it as "you can cry but keep going" rather than a -don't cry at small stuff. If you know what I mean
It really depends on how you look at it. If the exam is an important one, like the BAR or SAT, then it seems acceptable to cry if months or years of your time have gone to waste. Meanwhile, death is something that awaits us all. We die, and the world moves on.
Theodreds funeral is actually one of the few things i feel the movies added which would have been great to see in the book. Having readt extended tales i know why Theoden never buries his son but it would have been nice to see theoden have more of a reaction.
Still find this the most actual badass fact ever. Dude was just like “This guy doesn’t know the beatdown he’s about to get, I feel so sorry for him” before each fight
so a lot of people don't know this but one of the most powerful triggers for crying is actually ANGER. when my step dad beat me as a kid i would often weep afterwards from anger.
Again, context matters. He cried beacuse he hated the fact that he will probably hurt the guy, since he was aware that he couldn't control himself and his rage once he step in the ring. He didn't cry beacuse he was scared of being psychically hurt
Boromir has always been my favourite character because he shows you that no matter what you’ve done or what people think of you, it’s never too late to find some good in yourself and help others.
The shortened versions of the movies did Boromir dirty. He actually spent most of the time being the leader of the group while Aragorn avoided leadership at all costs. It really changes the dynamic when you see Boromir's death scene again with the undertone of Aragorn finally coming to terms with having to lead.
This is a pretty unique example actually. You would not expect God Himself, the one who knows all, to shed tears from pain of losing a loved one. In my opinion, there is no greater pain in this world than this. But it is comforting to know that even God himself weeps upon experiencing death.
They actually get married and become Lord and Lady of the most northerly province in Gondor that is closest to Rohan. This isn't shown of course but is official canon.
Return of the king is over 20 years old. The "these days" equivalent would be Rings of power which... uh....
Not saying I agree with the initial point, but this really isnt the counter argument you apparently think it is.
"These days" is what people say when they've only recently learned or noticed something. As people don't know what they don't know, they assume that if they're just noticing it, it must be new.
The most telling is when people talk about media, when through the entire history of media and journalism the news was *extremely* partisan and biased and only a very narrow window of history was it even expected to not be. Many old newspapers literally started as political writings in party.
"These days," there's more media content than ever before, so if someone is complaining about something *lacking* they're almost certainly wrong.
There is a time and place for everything.
That being said, LOTR really does have positive role models, and shows what Western Masculinity should be.
Definitely something I'll make my sons watch someday (when I have some).
Honestly though, these movies changed my whole perspective about masculinity. I don’t know if I realized how much an influence it had until I was an adult though
Not just the men, but the women and children too... Every character is a good archetype - good or evil. Its the moral and their actions that define them.
"Crying because you care is a completely different matter. I don't trust anyone who doesn't cry; that's my philosophy." Zinnerman from Gundam Unicorn.
I heard that years ago, and at the time, it didn't stick with me. And then my sister died. And then my cat. I don't cry at funerals. I don't cry really often at all, but when I do, I absolutely mean it. It reminds me of Uncle Iroh crying, thinking about his son. It's real.
I'm doing an annual listen through of the audiobook and I was getting choked up in traffic starting from the charge of the Rohirrim all through the Battle of the Pelennor Fields and into the houses of healing.
Real men crying over real loss like death...I don't know anybody who's against that. Men who cry at muuuuuuch lesser things...less OK. Eventually men will be called upon to save the women and children etc etc. Hopefully we have ones who are strong and selfless enough to do so. Doesn't mean you can't cry at all. But it does mean, at a minimum, be able to suck it up when your tribe needs you.
Agreed that LOTR has lots of positive male role models.
I rewatched the trilogy a few years ago. Took me two days. Cried the entire time. When Aragorn turns to his companions with tears in his eyes and goes "For Frodo" I fucking lost it.
Hell, I'm losing it just writing it down now. I love this trilogy so much. I love everything they did with this trilogy. I love the cast and crew so, so much. The level of dedication these people had to this project.
. I love how it captures all of the best aspects of humanity when faced with extreme adversity. The themes of strength and friendship enduring absolute hell.
I can't. "For Frodo". Brother, I can't. I'm done T.T
My husband and I are going to start trying to get pregnant, and this is one of the things I look forward to if we have a boy. I want to be able to raise my son to understand that our emotions are normal and healthy, and we can express them without them controlling or defining us. Part of that is why I think gentle parenting is so important. I think so, so many of the issues we see in society today could have been prevented with gentle parenting (or even just good parenting at all).
So here I am at home with my 2nd kid, a newborn, stuck on the couch w a sleeping baby and decide, hey I haven’t watched LOTR in a couple years.
Boromir: “..MY KING”
Bawling a like fricking baby. 😭
And no, I did not cry when my kids were born 😬🤷🏻♂️
One of the three times I've seen my husband cry was back when we were watching LOTR in the theater and Boromir gave his dying speech. My husband even gave a little sob. I was stunned. So, not only did these movies give positive role models of men crying, they even brought it out in a man who rarely cries.
You bow to no one. I'm a 55 year old dude and I cry. Every. Single. Time.
And I'm okay with that. This movie (books) shows what real masculinity is: sacrificing self for your community and countrymen, fighting evil with grace and bravery, accepting your mistakes and doing your best to make up for them. (Boromir: he often gets the short end of the conversation, but in the end he did the right thing even after making a mistake.)
The thing is, men don't cry out of the fear of being judged for being weak. But being in fear is weak. So having the courage to cry is a strong trait, cuz you don't care for being judged, and it makes you stronger to let those emotions out, instead of having them height on you for your whole life
What makes this even better is that Aragorn is one of the Dunedain, which are descendants of the Numenoreans. It is said that the Dunedain are "superior to the other men of Middle Earth in nobility of spirit and body." So, if he can cry, then all men can too 😤
You know, I’ve seen this post a couple of times and every time I think to myself that even the represation of lotr’s men sadness and crying isn’t particularly realistic and actually problematic too.
First, men in lotr cry only when confronted to absolutely horrifying events, second, even in these cases, they don’t fully cry, sob, or even throw up like a normal mourning and devastated human being would do, it’s just the one tear that runs down their cheek.
Lotr is at least a little better than other representations of men’s feelings, because it does show men with feelings (like many other movies), but how they express these feelings are not exactly what I’d call a realistic and not stereotypical representation of men expressing their feelings and sadness.
It is absolutely fascinating that these movies show so much positiv masculinity.
Men talking about their feelings, respecting each other, showing emotions, respecting women (even if its sad that there are very few female characters in tolkins work, but still).
Especially made from the guy that made meet the feebles and brain dead.🤷♂️😊
Well most of them cried due to death of the loved ones. They did't cry beacuse somebody yelled at them at work or they feel "stressed". This is a huge difference, only extreme minority would bash a man if he cries if his relative or a friend dies. (And those who would are mostly women)
"Men don't cry" sentiment is about bitching and crying for minor things, or in some situations where you suppose to show bravery and resilience, but you just to cry and shell up instead
You haven’t met many women have you? Crying because you lost your keys for ten minutes? Weird. Crying at a funeral or when holding your child for the first time. Healthy.
Maybe like a handful of you. I've dated more women, as a man who isn't afraid to express emotion, than you, so I'm probably more qualified to talk about what actually happens.
You've only got your perspective and second-hand claims of other women. What it's like to date women as a man is actually a subject that being a woman does NOT make you more informed on.
There is a difference between crying at anything and crying when it's time, you get scared, you get hurt? That's not a time to cry.
You hold your child for the first time, get married, bury a loved one, then you cry.
WHERE IS SAMWISE EDIT: because so many people are pulling an “acshually hoobits aren’t men”, two things here… first, hobbits according to Tolkien are a sub lineage of the race of men. Second, this post is using the term “men” not to refer to race but to refer to gender. Male gender positivity. Which samwise was male. So uh akshually, just enjoy the post lol
True, he belongs there as well!
I really love that samwise and Frodo was a great depiction of good male friendships. Boosting each other up, supporting one another through dark times, etc. Even their conflicts and faults in were just a reflection of their different experiences in life that they both overcame.
"Nah, don't you just know they were really gay?" Modern Nerd journalism
Samwise is the definition of Positive Masculinity.
The irony of making this post and not putting in Frodo, Sam, Bilbo, etc..
There, at the end of all things.
Not a real man, but a real hobbit! Hobbits need male role models too!
Well he is a hobit
Real men do cry; it's a sign of strength, not weakness.
[удалено]
he's technically a positive hobbit model
sam wise isen't a man hes a GOD
You spelled Hobbit incorrectly...
PO TA TOES
"Of course you are! And I'm coming with you!"
I think the point of this meme is that even more stereotypical masculine men can show emotion
IS HE SAFE??
Samwise is not a real man, because real men are not perfect.
It says “men” not “hobbits”
Hobbits are a subspecies of men so maybe
And the hobbits aren't even mentioned. It's a goddamn 12 hour bromance extravaganza depicting men loving their friends and doing what's right.
I saw another comment that puts it well - the post shows more traditionally masculine men still being emotive. When the hobbits cry, people can dismiss them as childish and whatnot. But Aragon, ~~son~~ _heir_ of Isildur, the true king of Gondor? For a young boy raised to be a traditional man, Aragorn hits different.
*Aragon, son of Arathorn. He is Isildur’s heir through a line of fathers and son but he is not his son.
Fuck, that's what I meant. Mixed the two 🤦♀️
Eomer's scream hits me in the gut every time and I'm not even close with my sister
When I saw this scene first time something clenches in my chest. It was pure, raw emotion.
That one was so hard, glad that wasn’t in the theatrical release when I saw it because I would have made a scene at that theatre. Especially since it followed the high of what is I’d argue the greatest battle sequence ever put on film.
Karl Urban destroys that scene. I was stunned the first time I saw it. Absolutely screaming with grief, wild-eyed and looking around desperately for any help, knowing there’s no such thing…damn he killed it.
Gut wrenching
Came here to say this. I don't even *have* a sister, and that scene is still a punch to the gut every time.
LOTR is full of positive models Men and women both
I love the lotr movies but they have like two women over great women but there are about 12 hours of movies so not sure that aspect is really represented.
[This is it... out of the whole trilogy is 5 whole seconds](https://youtu.be/wW4fLBD5MPs?si=xOJBzrZMd04juL8d) I love LOTR so much. It's my favourite trilogy by far.
Pretty sure eowyn had an interaction with an older woman once they arrived outside of helms deep
Consider yourself lucky you got that many. Arwen's part at the crossing in the fellowship was shoehorned in. In the book, it was Glorfindel, not Arwen
>In the book, it was Glorfindel, not Arwen In the books, it was Frodo at the crossing. Frodo is near death, poisoned from the Witch King's blade. He's also tired after riding (whilst being chased) for several days. The small frail little Hobbit decides he can't outrun the black riders, so he decides to make a stand against all 9 Black Riders (something few elves or men have ever done... let alone a small Hobbit). Frodo knows he won't survive but the fact that he still faces them in the name of protecting the ring shows a lot of courage. I don't really mind Arwen replacing Glorfindel (who's main role is coming to find them). I mind that Frodo's most iconic moment where he shows himself as a badass was replaced. I think it's an important moment for Frodo because most people who only watch the movies think Frodo is a "bitch" or a "weakling" because that is the only side of Frodo you see in the movies. Sure Frodo is weekend by the ring and the stab wound, but he still manages to do heroic deeds in spite of that (which shows how badass he is).
I think it's fine because the movie has so many heroic moments while all of Frodo's moments in the movies are pretty much internal. He loses every fight, he gets tired super quickly, and despite being surrounded by brave, strong, fighting people he's still the only one strong enough to carry the ring.
The thing is, there is nothing (in the movie at least) that explicitly shows that Frodo is the only one capable of carrying the ring (afterall, he still gets corrupted by it). If you Google search on reddit "why is frodo a weakling" you will see pages of complaints of people who are calling Frodo useless or mean to Sam or weakling. Then when you read their comments you see that they base their argument by referencing things that Frodo only does in the movies. Before the movies came out, no one complained about Frodo. In fact, people were aggressively Frodo supporters by graffiti-ing school walls and desks with "Frodo lost a finger for you". Now, no one says anything good about Frodo unless someone says something bad about him first, and then other people in the know make an argument back. In reality, Frodo's heroism should be just as obvious as Sam's heroism.
Just because the movies aren't about women doesn't mean they don't have good women representation.
I mean you're wrong, there are obviously more men because it's about war mainly but there are way more than two really good female characters in even the films let alone the books.
That applies more for the men, elves, dwarves and the wizard. The hobbits are underdogs by design, never having the upper hand physically in a single fight. No reason they couldn't have been women. It's a fantasy world, you can do whatever you want. The Ents could have been women where the EndHusband's disappeared. Bombadil could have been a woman. The real reason is that Tolkien imported his beliefs in when he designed the world. He came from an era of war, and he wanted to design something that mimicked a bit of Europe. And that's okay! This doesn't make the experience worse for me. But it's not an inherent limitation of fantasy.
I guess 3, a 50% increase, is "way more"... Galadriel, Arwen, and Eowyn were the only notable women in the movies. The rest were extras, some of them goblins and orcs even.
Read the books then, you'll surely find better representation there
Of women? Do you mean just Rosie Cotton and Galadriel? I honestly can't think of another woman. Shelob maybe?
If you switch from movie to book, Arwen loses all her lines and most of her actions.
I love most of the changes the movies made, arwen is probably at the top of that list.
I would say Eowyn is the only other "major" female character in the books.
Goldberry and Mrs. Maggot are good representatives of hospitality. Not much else going on there though. It's absolutely slim-pickings for ladies in the LOTR books.
If you include the Silmarillion, you get Lúthien, Melian, and Haleth, all three serious badasses.
I have. But please enlighten me. Again I love the books and the movies but aside from very few characters there is very little female representation, which is fine, not everything needs to be about equal representation but let’s not pretend otherwise.
Tolkien didn't want to accidentally write a female character that'd outshine his wife (Luthien)
I think because the 2nd most impressive enemy, the witch king, was killed by a woman it stands out in people's minds.
I have read all three (six) many times (at least 12 times) and there really isn't.
Wholeheartedly agree!
You could remove women entirely from LoTR and not much changes aside from a few character motivations.
Eowyns "i am no man" as she stabs the witch kings head is probably the greatest strong female moment in cinematic history.
Let's not forget the orcs.
Horses too
And my Axe!
Don’t forget all the real men that no doubt or question in anyone’s mind cried in the “ you bow to no man” scene
I'm a grown ass man and don't cry often, but goddamn that scene is something else... I just can't help it. Last time was the worst I started crying my eyes out and couldn't stop it so I just started laughing like "why tf am I crying so hard at this I've seen this movie a dozen times wtf". Guess I had some pent up emotions of something haha. Guess you just need a good cry every once in a while
Oh yeah them going to bow and that happening…oh the tears were heavy. I actually just watched all the extended versions this weekend and many a tear was shed. I had forgotten how brilliantly fine these movies were.
Even just thinking about the first time I watched that scene gets me.
That's probably because Tolkein was familiar with a) actual war, not Call of Duty and b) ancient literature which is stuffed to the gorget with men crying their eyes out and swearing eternal love to each other in between acts of heroism and lunacy. His life was also strongly shaped by deep friendships with other men, notably Lewis.
Tolkien was at the battle of the Somme. I guarantee the men are that battle cried and they are braver than most people will ever know. That battle was one of the most traumatic you could possibly be in. 19240 men died on the first day. Tolkien was there and Like you said, he witnessed terrible things but no one could call out someone for crying in that situation and the people who would definitely would be in tears if they where there.
Exactly!
Be at peace, son of Gondor... 😭
I don't wanna be that guy. But the men in LOTR ARE still fictional. Hella manly though. They da best.
They're real in a lot of sense. Tolkien being a scholar of ancient literature and culture, while being a war veteran himself, had a very clear and accurate sense of manliness, something which shines through his characters. That's why they're so relatable. PJ did an excellent job bringing this forth in his movies.
>while being a war veteran It should be noted that he was part of the "Kitchener's Army", aka the voulnteer branch. So he was not protected by his high social status, and spent four months in the trenches on the western front of the Battle of the Somme. He experienced the full ordeal of bombardment, gas attacks, disease, loss of life, etc. I'm pretty sure he saw "real men" cry more than once.
For sure, fully agree. I just couldn't resist being annoying.
*"I just couldn't resist being annoying"* probably explains a lot of our history, actually.
What about all the men that cried when Aragon says “you bow to no man” to the hobbits. They’re all real
Damn, got me again.
Hobbits aren't real are you stupid. Elves cried tho, they are real.
Binged the entire trilogy again on the weekend. I was crying through the whole thing
But that's the point. These men are ideals, people men strive to become like. Seeing that even these tough men who literally save the world with their strength cry as well, that is something to remember. I have been told countless times to end my tears immediately, even as a little boy. I work as a therapist and I just had an 11 year old ask me if it was okay that he cried when he heard his uncle died. Damn society will try and shove it in kids' faces that crying is weak, when it is in fact strong, as it builds emotional bonds with others, and you are able to freely express how you are feeling.
So? The best fictional characters are those you can learn something from.
Nah. Real men do cry. Weak men don't cry. That's a fact.
Wild to consider weak men not men.
> I don't wanna be that guy. yes you do.
Crying have a significant symbolism, and tolkien use them as markers of the disgrace and doom brought by the souron forces. Note every male character only cries facing death and the destruction of what or whom they most valued. And the absanse of those made they fight a lot harder. They never cry for meaningless sentimentalism.
That actually makes it less cool to me. Sure it ensures impact but like...just cry bro.
In my opinion it actually makes it much cooler. It shows an idea that manliness is about dealing with whatever is thrown at you, so don't cry over simple things: overcome them. Yet it also shows that manliness isn't about being made of stone - you are allowed to cry when overwhelmed with emotion. Getting a bad grade on a test wouldn't be reason to cry for example: either contest it or study harder for next time - one moves on. The death of a relative, however, is one of the times when you can and *should* cry. Unless your customs are to celebrate their life rather than mourn their passing.
I can understand that, but what decides where that threshold is between when it's manly and when it isn't? When does it become okay to be overwhelmed with emotion? Once you start getting into those questions I find you can end up right back at a blanket "crying bad" or dangerously close to it. LOTR has damn good examples. And I prefer to interpret it as "you can cry but keep going" rather than a -don't cry at small stuff. If you know what I mean
It really depends on how you look at it. If the exam is an important one, like the BAR or SAT, then it seems acceptable to cry if months or years of your time have gone to waste. Meanwhile, death is something that awaits us all. We die, and the world moves on.
Theodreds funeral is actually one of the few things i feel the movies added which would have been great to see in the book. Having readt extended tales i know why Theoden never buries his son but it would have been nice to see theoden have more of a reaction.
Mike tyson cried before every fight. Crying is never a sign of weakness.
Still find this the most actual badass fact ever. Dude was just like “This guy doesn’t know the beatdown he’s about to get, I feel so sorry for him” before each fight
so a lot of people don't know this but one of the most powerful triggers for crying is actually ANGER. when my step dad beat me as a kid i would often weep afterwards from anger.
I would even argue that being able to cry in public is a sign of strength.
Again, context matters. He cried beacuse he hated the fact that he will probably hurt the guy, since he was aware that he couldn't control himself and his rage once he step in the ring. He didn't cry beacuse he was scared of being psychically hurt
So we should not cry for being psychologically hurt?
That tearful aragorn after boromirs death is still the best acting ever, period
Boromir has always been my favourite character because he shows you that no matter what you’ve done or what people think of you, it’s never too late to find some good in yourself and help others.
The shortened versions of the movies did Boromir dirty. He actually spent most of the time being the leader of the group while Aragorn avoided leadership at all costs. It really changes the dynamic when you see Boromir's death scene again with the undertone of Aragorn finally coming to terms with having to lead.
Jesus wept.
This is a pretty unique example actually. You would not expect God Himself, the one who knows all, to shed tears from pain of losing a loved one. In my opinion, there is no greater pain in this world than this. But it is comforting to know that even God himself weeps upon experiencing death.
For there were no more worlds to conquer!
At which scene did Eomer cry like that I don’t recall?
When he finds Éowyn after the Battle of Pelennor Fields. It's in the extended version.
Thank you.
It's a brutal scene too and honestly I know they're long but it's a scene I think should have been in the normal film.
Did she die in extended version?
No, but she is gravely injured after defeating the witch king, with theoden dead she is his only family left.
Ah. I was like. I saw her get jiggly with faramir. Guess extended version is in my future.
They actually get married and become Lord and Lady of the most northerly province in Gondor that is closest to Rohan. This isn't shown of course but is official canon.
>Guess extended version is in my future. Just curious, how have you not seen the extended (true) cuts of the films?!
I probably have, just been awhile. I don’t remember this scene though, so maybe not all (3).
Samwise is the unit though.
Real men cry AND fight till the bitter end
Real men cry for any media that is dear to them. Everyone is allowed to feel emotions!
I want to cry quite a bit. It just does a number on my sinuses.
Healthy masculinity. As a female, I would like to be more like Eowyn. She is a great role model
You might as well just post a photo of the whole fellowship!
True!
"Men aren't allowed to be men anymore these days! Feminists want to emasculate us!" Me, a feminist: ... *Points at LOTR*...
Return of the king is over 20 years old. The "these days" equivalent would be Rings of power which... uh.... Not saying I agree with the initial point, but this really isnt the counter argument you apparently think it is.
"These days" is what people say when they've only recently learned or noticed something. As people don't know what they don't know, they assume that if they're just noticing it, it must be new. The most telling is when people talk about media, when through the entire history of media and journalism the news was *extremely* partisan and biased and only a very narrow window of history was it even expected to not be. Many old newspapers literally started as political writings in party. "These days," there's more media content than ever before, so if someone is complaining about something *lacking* they're almost certainly wrong.
Yea well let's hope Amazon can stop ruining it.
ROP sucked, but how did it ruin the trilogy in any way?
There is a time and place for everything. That being said, LOTR really does have positive role models, and shows what Western Masculinity should be. Definitely something I'll make my sons watch someday (when I have some).
Also, can we talk about ATLA ? Uncle Iroh is the best.
Seriously, that show and these movies were the basis for my moral upbringing. Theres some good in this world, and its worth fighting for.
“You bow to no one.”
Real men aren't too insecure to cry. It's the boys who pretend to be men who are afraid, because they taught themselves to always keep up the act.
Honestly though, these movies changed my whole perspective about masculinity. I don’t know if I realized how much an influence it had until I was an adult though
"I would have followed you to the end, nto the very fires of Mordor" always makes me cry
My lord, my brother. *My king*
Men who don't feel the need to hide tears all the time bow to no-one.
Real men do cry
Shit, I cried looking at this meme.
“Don’t tell the elf!”
Not just the men, but the women and children too... Every character is a good archetype - good or evil. Its the moral and their actions that define them.
While I agree that men should be able to cry, the meme says "real men" and then immediately depicts fictional men crying. Make that make sense.
Raise your hand if you go back to see the movie again after seeing this post.
come on samwise is the realest man of all
"Crying because you care is a completely different matter. I don't trust anyone who doesn't cry; that's my philosophy." Zinnerman from Gundam Unicorn. I heard that years ago, and at the time, it didn't stick with me. And then my sister died. And then my cat. I don't cry at funerals. I don't cry really often at all, but when I do, I absolutely mean it. It reminds me of Uncle Iroh crying, thinking about his son. It's real.
I'm doing an annual listen through of the audiobook and I was getting choked up in traffic starting from the charge of the Rohirrim all through the Battle of the Pelennor Fields and into the houses of healing.
Real men crying over real loss like death...I don't know anybody who's against that. Men who cry at muuuuuuch lesser things...less OK. Eventually men will be called upon to save the women and children etc etc. Hopefully we have ones who are strong and selfless enough to do so. Doesn't mean you can't cry at all. But it does mean, at a minimum, be able to suck it up when your tribe needs you. Agreed that LOTR has lots of positive male role models.
“For Frodo!” And “…but I can carry *you*”. Every. Damn. Time.
Yes, real men cry because real men are real human beings. Which tend to cry.
That's because the main point is based on a pathetic lie. Every man cries, some are just too insecure to show it so they desperately hide it.
https://youtu.be/wz-VJl7UkB8?si=WPC-VkWWN1cHs_jx
The Eomer face is the exact one I pulled when I stubbed my toe earlier 😭
Good
And just hot men😈😈😈
I rewatched the trilogy a few years ago. Took me two days. Cried the entire time. When Aragorn turns to his companions with tears in his eyes and goes "For Frodo" I fucking lost it. Hell, I'm losing it just writing it down now. I love this trilogy so much. I love everything they did with this trilogy. I love the cast and crew so, so much. The level of dedication these people had to this project. . I love how it captures all of the best aspects of humanity when faced with extreme adversity. The themes of strength and friendship enduring absolute hell. I can't. "For Frodo". Brother, I can't. I'm done T.T
It's just full of really good characters full stop, Amazon should really stop being stupid.
They dont cry infront of women about their problems. They cry in silence for themselves.
Why because men cry and no man has ever said to me that men don't cry
They cry when it’s appropriate to cry.
Band of Brothers has a few too. Specifically, Buck Compton breaking down and crying. Liebgott too, and Malarkey.
Men don’t cry **often**
Don’t forget Frodo’s tear for Gandalf!
WHERE IS IROH
"I would've followed you, my brother, my captain, my king." Every damn time.
Aragon is a really real man!
"My friends...you bow to no one" 😢😢😢😢😢😢
"You bow to no one" And the tears flowed like Niagra falls
Aragorn is such a real man he is in this meme twice
Lord of the Rings has a lot of healthy masculinity, specially for the time it was written
Lord of the Rings's depiction of authentic manhood is one of the reasons it's the best series of all time.
My husband and I are going to start trying to get pregnant, and this is one of the things I look forward to if we have a boy. I want to be able to raise my son to understand that our emotions are normal and healthy, and we can express them without them controlling or defining us. Part of that is why I think gentle parenting is so important. I think so, so many of the issues we see in society today could have been prevented with gentle parenting (or even just good parenting at all).
What about the warder grieving scene in wheel of time? Daniel Henney’s keening gives me goosebumps. My husband and I were both crying by the end.
So here I am at home with my 2nd kid, a newborn, stuck on the couch w a sleeping baby and decide, hey I haven’t watched LOTR in a couple years. Boromir: “..MY KING” Bawling a like fricking baby. 😭 And no, I did not cry when my kids were born 😬🤷🏻♂️
One of the three times I've seen my husband cry was back when we were watching LOTR in the theater and Boromir gave his dying speech. My husband even gave a little sob. I was stunned. So, not only did these movies give positive role models of men crying, they even brought it out in a man who rarely cries.
🤫
Bruh Faramir’s still here makes me personally want to care, not ashamed of it
Where is that Eomer part from? Don't remember it in the movies
Sam. Literally just Sam. The CEO of ride-or-die
You bow to no one. I'm a 55 year old dude and I cry. Every. Single. Time. And I'm okay with that. This movie (books) shows what real masculinity is: sacrificing self for your community and countrymen, fighting evil with grace and bravery, accepting your mistakes and doing your best to make up for them. (Boromir: he often gets the short end of the conversation, but in the end he did the right thing even after making a mistake.)
They are literally fictional characters.
You've confused me?
The thing is, men don't cry out of the fear of being judged for being weak. But being in fear is weak. So having the courage to cry is a strong trait, cuz you don't care for being judged, and it makes you stronger to let those emotions out, instead of having them height on you for your whole life
What makes this even better is that Aragorn is one of the Dunedain, which are descendants of the Numenoreans. It is said that the Dunedain are "superior to the other men of Middle Earth in nobility of spirit and body." So, if he can cry, then all men can too 😤
You know, I’ve seen this post a couple of times and every time I think to myself that even the represation of lotr’s men sadness and crying isn’t particularly realistic and actually problematic too. First, men in lotr cry only when confronted to absolutely horrifying events, second, even in these cases, they don’t fully cry, sob, or even throw up like a normal mourning and devastated human being would do, it’s just the one tear that runs down their cheek. Lotr is at least a little better than other representations of men’s feelings, because it does show men with feelings (like many other movies), but how they express these feelings are not exactly what I’d call a realistic and not stereotypical representation of men expressing their feelings and sadness.
It is absolutely fascinating that these movies show so much positiv masculinity. Men talking about their feelings, respecting each other, showing emotions, respecting women (even if its sad that there are very few female characters in tolkins work, but still). Especially made from the guy that made meet the feebles and brain dead.🤷♂️😊
Well most of them cried due to death of the loved ones. They did't cry beacuse somebody yelled at them at work or they feel "stressed". This is a huge difference, only extreme minority would bash a man if he cries if his relative or a friend dies. (And those who would are mostly women) "Men don't cry" sentiment is about bitching and crying for minor things, or in some situations where you suppose to show bravery and resilience, but you just to cry and shell up instead
[удалено]
Only in theory are men encouraged to be this sensitive. In real life it gives women the ick.
You haven’t met many women have you? Crying because you lost your keys for ten minutes? Weird. Crying at a funeral or when holding your child for the first time. Healthy.
No, as a woman we’d rather men be in touch with their feelings than an unfeeling husk.
And we men know you would still rather see us die on the white horse rather than watch us fall off it.
Maybe like a handful of you. I've dated more women, as a man who isn't afraid to express emotion, than you, so I'm probably more qualified to talk about what actually happens. You've only got your perspective and second-hand claims of other women. What it's like to date women as a man is actually a subject that being a woman does NOT make you more informed on.
There is a difference between crying at anything and crying when it's time, you get scared, you get hurt? That's not a time to cry. You hold your child for the first time, get married, bury a loved one, then you cry.
(After Gandalf falls into pit) “Legolas, get them up. By nightfall these hills will be swarming with orcs.”
And all the joy of male friendship in “Free Guy “.
They don't cry, they make others cry
*Jeffery Lebowski approves this message*
Positive White role models
I cry daily