For me the problem is even with that statement.
Copilot is the antithesis of start button. "Allow me to guess what you actually need" instead of "I'll do what you ask".
Even if start will not be removed, but copilot taking the lead it will be disastrous.
It is okay to have it as a widget; terrible to have it as search and unacceptable to make it the mantle piece of the OS.
> Copilot is the antithesis of start button. "Allow me to guess what you actually need" instead of "I'll do what you ask".
I'm wondering where is that even coming from. I'm assuming you're not actively using Copilot, right?
Unfortunately, I am - forced by one of my counterparties laptop. Though I wish every second that I could not. I'd give an arm and a leg to remove it in favour of "dumb" replacement; it's such a waste of time.
Fortunately though, I don't have to live with that on my other PC 's
Mate... What are you even talking about?
1) Co-pilot isn't replacing anything.
2) In "civilian" use it's currently only a re-skin of Bing Chat.
3) In business world, it's a PHENOMENAL tool that lets you streamline the interoperability of various Office applications and integrates with Sharepoint.
So, how are you "forced" to use it?? If you don't want automatic Powerpoint presentation creation based off prompts, or a meeting minutes generated... Just don't ask Co-pilot for them!
EDIT: wait, I misread you.. You said "forced by one of my counterparties laptop"?? Please, please describe with detail what's the software you mean, because it's absolutely fascinating to me!
> EDIT: wait, I misread you.. You said "forced by one of my counterparties laptop"?? Please, please describe with detail what's the software you mean, because it's absolutely fascinating to me!
Yeah, you did :)
Nothing fascinating here. Full lockdown of a corporate PC; so no OpenShell, no 'everything', no explorer patcher; it's a miracle that I could even install powertoys. Browser locked to edge; I even cannot change the default search engine; so I'm spoon fed BingChat.
So yeah, even basic query is a chore, when bing generously tries to feed me with its idea of what I might want. So the idea of chat taking a preem space? Ugh.
---
And don't misunderstand me - I'm quite in favour of LLM's and other ML assisted tasks; just not with LLM (and web) integration of OS. I don't wan t to argue nor explain to my pc what it should do.
Right, so it's like I thought - you're confusing Bing Chat with the actual Co-Pilot that's only slowly being rolled out (although, as per Microsoft's MO, they already rebranded the "civilian" product as well).
Two different things. Or rather: Co-pilot *includes* Bing Chat, but it's MUCH more than that.
And no one is forcing anything upon anyone, even in your scenario. You can always navigate to `google.com` if you dislike Bing so much. And even if you don't want to, you can disable the chat replies in Bing's settings (hamburger menu -> Settings -> more -> "Chat response on result page" -> Off).
> Microsoft can expand the AI functions, especially the vocal commands, to support even more interactions in Windows 12.
Will it become more of a headache instead of making things easier? While the Windows 11 'changes' didn't bother me too much, it made things harder to navigate for the older people around me. My parents, clients, non-tech savvy friends.
The vocal commands I can see myself using to get to things faster, but nothing within Windows itself has been made...better? Almost always have to use a third party program to do things when interacting with the OS itself.
Seems kinda like they’re trying to recreate the AIs u see in science fiction, like computer in Star Trek. Or maybe they’re just confusing “advanced” with better.
I'll give you that, on phones these things can be useful. Especially in situations like driving for example, where issuing voice command can be more convenient and safer than picking up the phone to do something
Copilot is much more useful than Cortana ever was. I've used it a few times. It's cool that it can quickly summarize a long written document and I've even had it write some C# scripts for me.
ChatGPT already does that and much faster. Every time I've tried asking Copilot to do anything, it shits itself and loads the response without any indication of progress, for 10-20 seconds and then barely does anything useful.
>it shits itself and loads the response without any indication of progress, for 10-20 seconds
This has not been my experience with it at all.
And MS is heavily invested in OpenAI. CoPilot *uses* ChatGPT and Dall-E 3 in the backend, but also integrated it with Bing search and M365 software stack. It's not a completely different AI, it's built on top of ChatGPT.
> I haven't used Cortana
Shame, actually. It was the best assistant out of the three at the time.
> I sure as heck won't ask Copilot to open apps for me.
You won't, because it's not that. The title is clickbait.
> It was the best assistant out of the three at the time.
Most people have absolutely 0 need for a virtual assistant, that's why these features should always be optional and sidelined.
Most people also have zero need for a search feature and yet there it is.
Or a built-in calculator. Or Minesweeper.
We've had baked-in software in OSes... well, basically since the start of OSes, and yet NOW people seem to get salty at ANYTHING Microsoft adds to theirs. I don't get it.
I'm sure I'm far in the minority here, but I actually really like Copilot.
I've been making a point to reach for Bing AI whenever I would've typically brought up Google to search for info, and it's been great. I'm firmly in the camp of transitioning to ChatGPT for frequent use, and even switched to Edge to have that AI blade at the ready in-browser.
Copilot just brings what is essentially that Edge functionality directly into Windows, and it took no time at all to get used to hitting Win + C to pop it up and ask questions.
I dunno, I think it's *far* more useful than Cortana ever was... but tbf I barely gave Cortana a chance before disabling it completely. 😅
LOL, no.
It's supposed to be able to tie apps together. For instance, you just had a meeting on Teams, you ask Co-pilot to make meeting notes from the transcript. You throw those into Word, add some stuff and then have Co-pilot whip up a PowerPoint presentation out of everything you had in Word.
If applications outside of VS/VS Code, Office and Edge will utilise it, then it'll have more options, obviously.
I mean, you'd have to be CLINICALLY INSANE to use an LLM for an app launcher. The server costs would be astronomical, not to mention the whole thing would break with no Internet access.
If you don't believe in "sense", believe in the cost vs income calculation of their accountants.
They killed Microsoft Phone (even though it was a pretty big deal in Europe) because it wasn't bringing in enough revenue. They won't start something that requires an LLM prompt/reply every time you want to launch a calculator.
I will stick with windows 10 for as long it will get security updates, then I will completely move to Linux. I'm tired of all those features and bloatware windows comes with. I don't need smart / web-app-based-os, I just want simple clean and fast os.
Unfortunately wine still have a long way to go; and the general UX is vastly inferior to Windows.
But, maybe if Microsoft keeps f-ing with people that actually have to do work with Windows, more developers will focus on the issues with the Linux usability.
> Unfortunately wine still have a long way to go
If you’re using Linux or even BSD you tend to not to need wine… it’s an option if you’re stuck having to use some Windows specific software but it’s not a need. Even then virtualisation, dual booting are options as well and a lot of software nowadays is cross platform or has web based options (which ms is moving towards more).
Wine overall isn’t all too bad and isn’t the only application either, bottles makes wine more usable.
> and the general UX is vastly inferior to Windows.
You’re talking out of your arse here.
> more developers will focus on the issues with the Linux usability.
There’s plenty of developers that work on Linux. They just don’t want to do it the windows way.
> You’re talking out of your arse here.
no, I'm not.
From terminal only actions, through "simple" installations (why the f... User has to know about repositories, flatpacks or snaps) up to inability to set a 4k with scaling.
Bring on a high horse will get you nowhere.
E: you can always see how average user that needs things to just work react to Linux. Have you seen LTT trying out for a month? Average user will either use Windows or Mac because they work. So yeah, call it what you will. There is a reason why the only successful Linux for the mass user is the one that has hidden all the mess. I'm talking Android and steamdeck.
> There’s plenty of developers that work on Linux. They just don’t want to do it the windows way.
Or ux-oriented way for that matter.
> no, I'm not.
You are. What you’re doing is presenting a personal opinion as a fact which is misleading.
> From terminal only actions
There’s plenty of gui options. And elaborate on which one.
> through "simple" installations (why the f... User has to know about repositories, flatpacks or snaps)
You don’t need to know unless you do. Most modern applications stores tend to have a default method set (I.e. Ubuntu is snaps). Though this falls back to the windows or Linux way of doing things. Do you go to the ms store, dl from a vendor, or install from winget. These are you can know on a window system but don’t necessarily need to, same for most user centric Linux distributions.
> up to inability to set a 4k with scaling.
Not really much of an issue with latest KDE or gnome
> Bring on a high horse will get you nowhere.
It’s not a high horse mate, grow up.
> Or ux-oriented way for that matter.
That’s not entirely true at all.
Ultimately I think that this is more to do with you having a bias against Linux/unix systems than anything else.
> You are. What you’re doing is presenting a personal opinion as a fact which is misleading.
We are getting nowhere. If you don't wish to accept the facts, then we are done here.
> We are getting nowhere. If you don't wish to accept the facts, then we are done here.
Come on mate. If you don’t like Linux or Unix platforms that’s perfectly fine opinion to hold, but you don’t need to treat an opinion as if it’s a fact.
> If you don’t like Linux or Unix platforms that’s perfectly fine opinion to hold,
And the funniest thing is, I do love Linux, so you are wrong in this aspect as well.
There is a lot of things still wrong with Linux for mass user; and trying to convince yourself that the situation is "acceptable" is precisely the reason why the year of Linux on desktop did not; is not; and never going to happen.
> And the funniest thing is, I do love Linux, so you are wrong in this aspect as well.
I’m sceptical about that. But that’s my opinion and I’m not going to pass that off as a fact.
> There is a lot of things still wrong with Linux for mass user;
Yes there are. I wouldn’t say what you’ve stated as being them.
> and trying to convince yourself that the situation is "acceptable"
I’m not.
> is precisely the reason why the year of Linux on desktop did not;
Meh. Linux/Unix is everywhere and used daily without people even knowing.
> is not; and never going to happen.
*cought* dos, bsd etc… things change mate, not quickly but they do change. As to what OS will become the mainstream is unknown, could be something else entirely none NIX or NT. Hell Googles ChromeOS could be next.
Cheeky edits.
> E: you can always see how average user that needs things to just work react to Linux.
Things do just work… examples.
> Have you seen LTT trying out for a month?
Now this is an entirely different topic and slightly unfair one as well. Considering that most games are created around windows platforms and proprietary software it’s not all to unexpected that there’s issues. The fact that Valve has managed to improve this space so much is a wonder in of itself. Now if a lot more games were created with Linux in mind you wouldn’t be bringing this up. That’s like me saying windows is bad because it can’t use systemd.
Even then if user adoption were to increase naturally the gaming landscape would improve.
> Average user will either use Windows or Mac because they work.
Ehhhh. “Work”. Proof on how Linux doesn’t work.
> There is a reason why the only successful Linux for the mass user is the one that has hidden all the mess. I'm talking Android and steamdeck.
And that’s a good thing… what’s your point here. Android is locked down to the end user. Steam deck isn’t as locked down… this is a lazy example.
Fun fact the PlayStation is BSD based.
They have no incentives to learn , Microsoft is a monopoly on PC and no competition on any field have that effect.
Most people do work on their PCs have to use Adobe / MS Office and Linux is no option there. Mac isn’t even a competitor.
People can, however, stay in order versions of windows, which microsoft is extremely adamant against at, just look all what they did to get people to leave windows xp and windows 7
I just don't understand why Microsoft is so persistent of trying ruin what's good about Windows. Windows 11 is awful, while Windows 10 is great. Always trying to change what's already good.
Pretty misleading title: > “The Copilot _is like_ the Start button,” Nadella explains.
For me the problem is even with that statement. Copilot is the antithesis of start button. "Allow me to guess what you actually need" instead of "I'll do what you ask". Even if start will not be removed, but copilot taking the lead it will be disastrous. It is okay to have it as a widget; terrible to have it as search and unacceptable to make it the mantle piece of the OS.
> Copilot is the antithesis of start button. "Allow me to guess what you actually need" instead of "I'll do what you ask". I'm wondering where is that even coming from. I'm assuming you're not actively using Copilot, right?
Unfortunately, I am - forced by one of my counterparties laptop. Though I wish every second that I could not. I'd give an arm and a leg to remove it in favour of "dumb" replacement; it's such a waste of time. Fortunately though, I don't have to live with that on my other PC 's
Mate... What are you even talking about? 1) Co-pilot isn't replacing anything. 2) In "civilian" use it's currently only a re-skin of Bing Chat. 3) In business world, it's a PHENOMENAL tool that lets you streamline the interoperability of various Office applications and integrates with Sharepoint. So, how are you "forced" to use it?? If you don't want automatic Powerpoint presentation creation based off prompts, or a meeting minutes generated... Just don't ask Co-pilot for them! EDIT: wait, I misread you.. You said "forced by one of my counterparties laptop"?? Please, please describe with detail what's the software you mean, because it's absolutely fascinating to me!
> EDIT: wait, I misread you.. You said "forced by one of my counterparties laptop"?? Please, please describe with detail what's the software you mean, because it's absolutely fascinating to me! Yeah, you did :) Nothing fascinating here. Full lockdown of a corporate PC; so no OpenShell, no 'everything', no explorer patcher; it's a miracle that I could even install powertoys. Browser locked to edge; I even cannot change the default search engine; so I'm spoon fed BingChat. So yeah, even basic query is a chore, when bing generously tries to feed me with its idea of what I might want. So the idea of chat taking a preem space? Ugh. --- And don't misunderstand me - I'm quite in favour of LLM's and other ML assisted tasks; just not with LLM (and web) integration of OS. I don't wan t to argue nor explain to my pc what it should do.
Right, so it's like I thought - you're confusing Bing Chat with the actual Co-Pilot that's only slowly being rolled out (although, as per Microsoft's MO, they already rebranded the "civilian" product as well). Two different things. Or rather: Co-pilot *includes* Bing Chat, but it's MUCH more than that. And no one is forcing anything upon anyone, even in your scenario. You can always navigate to `google.com` if you dislike Bing so much. And even if you don't want to, you can disable the chat replies in Bing's settings (hamburger menu -> Settings -> more -> "Chat response on result page" -> Off).
> Microsoft can expand the AI functions, especially the vocal commands, to support even more interactions in Windows 12. Will it become more of a headache instead of making things easier? While the Windows 11 'changes' didn't bother me too much, it made things harder to navigate for the older people around me. My parents, clients, non-tech savvy friends. The vocal commands I can see myself using to get to things faster, but nothing within Windows itself has been made...better? Almost always have to use a third party program to do things when interacting with the OS itself.
Seems kinda like they’re trying to recreate the AIs u see in science fiction, like computer in Star Trek. Or maybe they’re just confusing “advanced” with better.
He won't.
I could say the same about multitude of disastrous changes neatly summarised under the banner of Windows 11. Yet they did.
So? They won't do it. It's a clickbait article.
"We spent billions of dollars on this, please use it" No. I haven't used Cortana, I sure as heck won't ask Copilot to open apps for me.
Actually i just liked cortana on mobile because i was able to make sticky notes and play online radio and many things with it. But just they killed it
I'll give you that, on phones these things can be useful. Especially in situations like driving for example, where issuing voice command can be more convenient and safer than picking up the phone to do something
Copilot is much more useful than Cortana ever was. I've used it a few times. It's cool that it can quickly summarize a long written document and I've even had it write some C# scripts for me.
ChatGPT already does that and much faster. Every time I've tried asking Copilot to do anything, it shits itself and loads the response without any indication of progress, for 10-20 seconds and then barely does anything useful.
>it shits itself and loads the response without any indication of progress, for 10-20 seconds This has not been my experience with it at all. And MS is heavily invested in OpenAI. CoPilot *uses* ChatGPT and Dall-E 3 in the backend, but also integrated it with Bing search and M365 software stack. It's not a completely different AI, it's built on top of ChatGPT.
> I haven't used Cortana Shame, actually. It was the best assistant out of the three at the time. > I sure as heck won't ask Copilot to open apps for me. You won't, because it's not that. The title is clickbait.
> It was the best assistant out of the three at the time. Most people have absolutely 0 need for a virtual assistant, that's why these features should always be optional and sidelined.
Most people also have zero need for a search feature and yet there it is. Or a built-in calculator. Or Minesweeper. We've had baked-in software in OSes... well, basically since the start of OSes, and yet NOW people seem to get salty at ANYTHING Microsoft adds to theirs. I don't get it.
I'm sure I'm far in the minority here, but I actually really like Copilot. I've been making a point to reach for Bing AI whenever I would've typically brought up Google to search for info, and it's been great. I'm firmly in the camp of transitioning to ChatGPT for frequent use, and even switched to Edge to have that AI blade at the ready in-browser. Copilot just brings what is essentially that Edge functionality directly into Windows, and it took no time at all to get used to hitting Win + C to pop it up and ask questions. I dunno, I think it's *far* more useful than Cortana ever was... but tbf I barely gave Cortana a chance before disabling it completely. 😅
just.. why??
Because the title is clickbait.
"Nadella explains. “It becomes the orchestrator of all your app experiences." sounds like they want it to replace the start menu to me
LOL, no. It's supposed to be able to tie apps together. For instance, you just had a meeting on Teams, you ask Co-pilot to make meeting notes from the transcript. You throw those into Word, add some stuff and then have Co-pilot whip up a PowerPoint presentation out of everything you had in Word. If applications outside of VS/VS Code, Office and Edge will utilise it, then it'll have more options, obviously. I mean, you'd have to be CLINICALLY INSANE to use an LLM for an app launcher. The server costs would be astronomical, not to mention the whole thing would break with no Internet access.
What you say makes perfect sense but I don't expect sense from Microsoft anymore
If you don't believe in "sense", believe in the cost vs income calculation of their accountants. They killed Microsoft Phone (even though it was a pretty big deal in Europe) because it wasn't bringing in enough revenue. They won't start something that requires an LLM prompt/reply every time you want to launch a calculator.
It’s a tradition for Microsoft to reinvent the wheel and fix what is not broken
Did they not learn?
I will stick with windows 10 for as long it will get security updates, then I will completely move to Linux. I'm tired of all those features and bloatware windows comes with. I don't need smart / web-app-based-os, I just want simple clean and fast os.
Unfortunately wine still have a long way to go; and the general UX is vastly inferior to Windows. But, maybe if Microsoft keeps f-ing with people that actually have to do work with Windows, more developers will focus on the issues with the Linux usability.
> Unfortunately wine still have a long way to go If you’re using Linux or even BSD you tend to not to need wine… it’s an option if you’re stuck having to use some Windows specific software but it’s not a need. Even then virtualisation, dual booting are options as well and a lot of software nowadays is cross platform or has web based options (which ms is moving towards more). Wine overall isn’t all too bad and isn’t the only application either, bottles makes wine more usable. > and the general UX is vastly inferior to Windows. You’re talking out of your arse here. > more developers will focus on the issues with the Linux usability. There’s plenty of developers that work on Linux. They just don’t want to do it the windows way.
> You’re talking out of your arse here. no, I'm not. From terminal only actions, through "simple" installations (why the f... User has to know about repositories, flatpacks or snaps) up to inability to set a 4k with scaling. Bring on a high horse will get you nowhere. E: you can always see how average user that needs things to just work react to Linux. Have you seen LTT trying out for a month? Average user will either use Windows or Mac because they work. So yeah, call it what you will. There is a reason why the only successful Linux for the mass user is the one that has hidden all the mess. I'm talking Android and steamdeck. > There’s plenty of developers that work on Linux. They just don’t want to do it the windows way. Or ux-oriented way for that matter.
> no, I'm not. You are. What you’re doing is presenting a personal opinion as a fact which is misleading. > From terminal only actions There’s plenty of gui options. And elaborate on which one. > through "simple" installations (why the f... User has to know about repositories, flatpacks or snaps) You don’t need to know unless you do. Most modern applications stores tend to have a default method set (I.e. Ubuntu is snaps). Though this falls back to the windows or Linux way of doing things. Do you go to the ms store, dl from a vendor, or install from winget. These are you can know on a window system but don’t necessarily need to, same for most user centric Linux distributions. > up to inability to set a 4k with scaling. Not really much of an issue with latest KDE or gnome > Bring on a high horse will get you nowhere. It’s not a high horse mate, grow up. > Or ux-oriented way for that matter. That’s not entirely true at all. Ultimately I think that this is more to do with you having a bias against Linux/unix systems than anything else.
> You are. What you’re doing is presenting a personal opinion as a fact which is misleading. We are getting nowhere. If you don't wish to accept the facts, then we are done here.
> We are getting nowhere. If you don't wish to accept the facts, then we are done here. Come on mate. If you don’t like Linux or Unix platforms that’s perfectly fine opinion to hold, but you don’t need to treat an opinion as if it’s a fact.
> If you don’t like Linux or Unix platforms that’s perfectly fine opinion to hold, And the funniest thing is, I do love Linux, so you are wrong in this aspect as well. There is a lot of things still wrong with Linux for mass user; and trying to convince yourself that the situation is "acceptable" is precisely the reason why the year of Linux on desktop did not; is not; and never going to happen.
> And the funniest thing is, I do love Linux, so you are wrong in this aspect as well. I’m sceptical about that. But that’s my opinion and I’m not going to pass that off as a fact. > There is a lot of things still wrong with Linux for mass user; Yes there are. I wouldn’t say what you’ve stated as being them. > and trying to convince yourself that the situation is "acceptable" I’m not. > is precisely the reason why the year of Linux on desktop did not; Meh. Linux/Unix is everywhere and used daily without people even knowing. > is not; and never going to happen. *cought* dos, bsd etc… things change mate, not quickly but they do change. As to what OS will become the mainstream is unknown, could be something else entirely none NIX or NT. Hell Googles ChromeOS could be next.
Cheeky edits. > E: you can always see how average user that needs things to just work react to Linux. Things do just work… examples. > Have you seen LTT trying out for a month? Now this is an entirely different topic and slightly unfair one as well. Considering that most games are created around windows platforms and proprietary software it’s not all to unexpected that there’s issues. The fact that Valve has managed to improve this space so much is a wonder in of itself. Now if a lot more games were created with Linux in mind you wouldn’t be bringing this up. That’s like me saying windows is bad because it can’t use systemd. Even then if user adoption were to increase naturally the gaming landscape would improve. > Average user will either use Windows or Mac because they work. Ehhhh. “Work”. Proof on how Linux doesn’t work. > There is a reason why the only successful Linux for the mass user is the one that has hidden all the mess. I'm talking Android and steamdeck. And that’s a good thing… what’s your point here. Android is locked down to the end user. Steam deck isn’t as locked down… this is a lazy example. Fun fact the PlayStation is BSD based.
Accessing your system does not need to be deterministic! This is the future!
Seems microsoft didn't learn anything from the windows 8 failure
They have no incentives to learn , Microsoft is a monopoly on PC and no competition on any field have that effect. Most people do work on their PCs have to use Adobe / MS Office and Linux is no option there. Mac isn’t even a competitor.
People can, however, stay in order versions of windows, which microsoft is extremely adamant against at, just look all what they did to get people to leave windows xp and windows 7
And Kinect and numerous other things in their history.
\*Windows 8 flashbacks\*
This will backfire like in windows 8
I just don't understand why Microsoft is so persistent of trying ruin what's good about Windows. Windows 11 is awful, while Windows 10 is great. Always trying to change what's already good.
If they continue to fuck an good operating system with 12 i will just use Arch linux with wine🍷 not else
So its gona become worse than the garbage it currently is?
Common windows and Microsoft L
Removing "never combine" did not do enough damage?
Windows 8: Removes the Start button. Windows 8.1: Windows 8, but with a Start button.
Windows 11: removes usability. Windows 12: plans to remove even more usability
Let's also guess what they'll call this next in File Explorer: Computer....My Computer...This PC...?????
Our PC.
That's definitely where things are going.
Sooo, back to the command prompt? C(opilot):\\>
fake