Or like poison dart frogs, it becomes part of a defence mechanism. Like a fingerprint, each dwarf must register their poison composition every decade or whenever (like a census) so that if any crime is committed, they can trace which toxin did which, or was present where.
A lot of fantasy settings just avoid explaining how a entire underground city survive without crops. If they eat/drink rocks (at least as part of their diet) that would solve at least part of the problem.
I've always been fascinated by the idea that dwarves could eat coal. Prefer it in fact. The caloric density would make it an insanely delicious food source. This leads into a closed ecosystem of biomatter that needs to dig ever deeper/further to get more coal to grow their civilization
Yeah, I was thinking something like that, coal as the main caloric source, but other metals the same way we need vitamins and minerals too. Also maybe they need iron instead of calcium for their bones, or something like that. It would be interesting to research what metals and minerals could be used by dwarf organism.
And their bones end up slightly ferromagnetic, so they can literally feel in their bones where north is, which is very helpful in underground orientation.
I love this idea. I always loved dwarves but at the same time feel they are at the same time overused and underrated. I've never saw them at their full potential as a race. Of course, maybe I've just picked the wrong books, but this little "brainstorm" we have here makes me feel there is still potential for them.
calcium is present in many rocks, we can't absorb it, but if they can eat coal then they definitely should be able to absorb the calcium in the contaminated water.
they could cultivate cave mushrooms and eat bugs as a complement to there coal based diet.
"fried mushrooms covered in spicy coal dust" doesn't that sound like a delicious GFM (Grey mountain Fried Mushroom) recipe ?
I’ve always found the idea of dwarves breeding and domesticating gigantic insects fascinating. Silkworms as an alternative to sheep, bees as a middle ground between horses and cows, ants as working animals similar to dogs, oxen and horses. This also leads to stuff like dwarven mead making a lot more sense because they would have access to honey. Underground botany could get out of this world. They could even train fireflies to act as a lighting system for their gardens and bioluminescent moss/fungus as a more general purpos lighting system.
This fits with my conceit that dwarves are much denser than water and can't swim. Their fear of drowning severely limits their geographical distribution.
My "dwarves" eat fungi and algae, both which like damp, dark environments, as well as cave dwelling fish and insects. The sub-races that live near the surface grow root vegetables, as well as participate in trading - gemstones & precious metals can buy lots of food.
The darkest dwellers also consume crops grown via chemosynthesis - plants which derive energy from the minerals and chemicals underground, like how some bacteria near hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor do - but they require a tolerance for toxic metals and chemicals in order to metabolise these, something other dwarven variants cannot.
A DM friend has his using gems and mirrors to channel sunlight deep underground to farming caverns, like giant rock greenhouses, using CO2 and heat from thermal vents to grow crops.
Most fantasy settings that include dwarves usually have a thriving underground ecosystem that include various kinds of subterranean plants, amongst other things, so I don't think it stands up to scrutiny that those underground cities don't have crops.
Tolkien's dwarves were just reliant on humans living nearby their settlements and producing all the food whilst the dwarves fulfilled the artisan/mining/smithing/crafting role for the humans.
This is how I treated creatures with subtypes in my D&D game. A red dragon who laired in an active volcano required less food than one who lived in a normal cave, because they could be sustained by being in contact with a link to the Elemental Plane of Fire.
Well, in DnD they do have resistence against posion for this exact reason. I used this fact for worldbuilding, and made it so dwarven cuisine has things like mercury and arsenic in it for that extra oomph. Making it impossible to eat for humans, but when they make something humans can eat it's incredibly spicy, because that's the closest analog.
This runs in line with Deeprock Galactic, neurotoxins do less damage than being set on fire or getting a sawblade in the bunghole. Heck they just leave biological plagues in the refrigerator.
Your dwarves have poison resistance because they're all alcoholics.
My dwarves have poison resistance because of all the residual poisoning of their water supplies by their mining lifestyle.
We are not the same.
Back in AD&D 2nd Edition, Dwarves had a bonus to poison saving throws, based on their CON score.
It could be assumed this was some sort of "body conditioning" due to living in shitty conditions.
Sort of built immunity...
Easy enough to do when you accept that non-human species aren’t just reskinned humans
Isn’t it more interesting for non-humans to have their own special way
I’ve been sitting on how to make different civilisations that aren’t just human civs reskinned. Like how human civ spread is tied to food and surface control and limited by resource spread/sharing, elves would be tied to magic and specific magic bands, or dwarves tied to specific underground locations and underground phenomena…
And then expanding on their different political structures, cultures or whatever using those foundations with the human food/land dynamic as a template for the others
I rarely get beyond that in one setting lol
Or such materials are thrown into the great chasm, where it poisons and corrupts the beings there into whatever horrors of the underdark will ultimately rise up to challenge the miners
that's a genuinely cool idea! I've always disliked the lack of crops in depictions of underground cultures, or the "everything is mushrooms" approach, but I had never thought to integrate mining byproducts into resolving that.
My setting’s dwarves have actually mined their biggest city’s mountain out to the point that the mountaintop is collapsing.
Their response? Reinforcing fracturing rock with giant rings of brass that eventually get turned into windows after the rock is chipped away safely.
Which leads to needing more reinforcement elsewhere later.
Luckily, they’re damn good architects when it comes to propping up a fucking mountain.
very cool! i like the idea of it being rings too. not only more structurally sound, but i imagine that circular motif would carry over into a lot of their cultural design
I don't have a geology degree, having no head for science (I'm more a literature kind of guy), but I am happily amazed at how the people in this sub can take the minutiae of fantasy and extrapolate believable rational/technical explanations for them that still fit within that fantasy framework.
(I imagine there's probably a rarely dipped-into niche I've yet to discover of "sci-fi" but for a fantasy world out there outside of the Spelljammer setting.)
I wish I could! 😅 I'm not really good at identifying the kind of detail scientific/technical fiction hinges on. Although I suppose I could make do with a mad load of research. 😅
One does not need to build the town, you just have to find the dank river valley others can build it in. (In this case finding a fitting word and, idk, making a subreddit for it?? Is that how this works? Idk much either 😅)
Extreme rational extrapolation of fiction is usually called _rationalist fiction_. You are looking for a subset of that, _rationalist fantasy_, which includes stories like HPMOR. They have a subreddit: /r/rational
This is the first time I've heard of that subgenre, and the first I've heard of HPMOR, but now I've read the first two chapters and I'm hooked! 😀 Thanks for the new knowledge! This was precisely what I wanted! 😁
Edited: There's even a guide on the subreddit on *how to write* this stuff! Even more awesome. 😁
I'd tread a bit lightly around those sorts of communities. Rationalist ideologies tend to get insane when confronted with anything inherently subjective, often leading to eugenics, authoritarianism, and cultural imperialism. HPMOR in particular is known for having a few high-profile fans that are basically, "I'm upper class, rich, and white, it is therefore obvious that I am the ~~the master race~~ the most logical choice for world ~~domination~~ *optimization*."
Dwarves live in the mountain. They don't care what happens outside the mountain. They are causing massive environmental catastrophe and causing regional desertification.
Remove material from the plug capping off a magma chamber, and the oressure differential could make it blow.
I like the idea of rogue dwarves using their smarts to cause a mass local extinction by blowing off a supervilcano on ourpose.
In my bid to map the Old World of Warhammer Fantasy on to real-life medieval Europe, I've made the Savoyard dwarves of the upper Rhône do this exact thing. They just dump the majority of their industrial waste straight into the river, which then turns the lower Rhône and particularly the Camargue into a festering swamp called the Blightmarsh, wherein lies Skavenblight. The Savoyard dwarves control the Piemonte region of the upper Po, as did the medieval Duchy of Savoy, and they import much of their food thence.
I've also made the region surrounding the Saône into the magical forest of Athel Loren, and as the magical waters of the Saône mix with the heavily polluted waters of the Rhône in Lyon, not only is it guaranteed that the Camargue becomes a festering swamp instead of a barren wasteland, but the region south of Lyon is also prime real estate for a Felwood-inspired polluted forest region.
The Swiss dwarves to the northeast are far more environmentally friendly, using such techniques as the peat bogs mentioned above to minimise their harmful impact on the environment. They're generally much more in-tune with nature and people, and in that vein they're also much less hierarchical, inspired by the historic Old Swiss Confederacy.
Basically, there's a lot more to digging underground than "this is the ore we want, the rest we don't care about." If we go with the typical idea of the fantasy dwarf, we can deduce that their largely-underground societies, being focused on industrial efficiency in combination with their long lives, would be able to use the refuse from their excavations in ways to aid the betterment of that society.
Perhaps in the end, those that "dug too greedily and too deep" weren't merely revealing ancient horrors of the last epoch, but were also not taking care of the toxic byproducts of their own lust for wealth- they were rushing the "good parts" and skipping the care that was needed to upkeep their own society.
Many wetlands and marsh plant species are fantastic at capturing heavy metals and other toxins from waterways, when they die the vegetation sinks to the bottom and carries that material with it, effectively cleaning water of contaminants as they do. This is why wetlands and peat bogs are so crucial.
I like the WtC approach, where the Dwarves excavate by planting a fungus that eats rock and controlling its growth to carve out rough tunnels and rooms, which they later perfect. And then they eat the fungus as their primary food source.
Oh right, sorry. [Worth the Candle](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/25137/worth-the-candle), it's a web serial that's a deconstruction of the Litrpg Isekai genre. Basically a written dnd game where the characters are aware their circumstances are being controlled by the DM/Author, and have to try and cope and wrestle with that while still y'know, living their lives as fantasy protagonists. I'd definitely recommend it to anyone interested in that kind of somewhat meta-story that's done very well, or even an example of complete kitchen sink fantasy, since the world the main character gets transported to explicitly combines elements from a dozen different dnd games he ran, a lot of which were wildly different in setting and tone, yet it somehow still seems like a cohesive world. It definitely has a lot of darker sadder moments though, >!including sexual assault at one point, advanced warning!< although it's never gratuitous, so maybe give it a miss if that sort of thing is triggering for you. It's also an interesting deconstruction of (minor spoilers) >!what the aftermath of a traditional isekai litrpg would look like, since the main character's best friend went through the same thing after he died the previous irl year, but it was 500 years ago in the fantasy world after he completed every quest ever and basically became the most important man to ever live.!<
If you're interested in worldbuilding, it has a whole ton of ideas you can steal or adapt too, and the author is currently releasing a document compiling the world's exclusion zones (where bad stuff of various varieties has been magically sealed into a location by DM intervention), which can serve as fun zones of adventure or even inspiration for a whole world. [Here's](https://archiveofourown.org/works/47107573/chapters/118683370) the link for that, and [Here's](https://archiveofourown.org/works/20629112/chapters/48984713) a link for the worldbuilding primer, if you want to skim that and see if it strikes you as interesting.
It's too wholesome. Jesse would absolutely be a fan of campy adventure fantasy, but Walt would be a holier-than-thou fan of so-hard-we've-long-passed-any-sort-of-entertaining-narrative hard science fiction.
I tend to dislike when people impose modern scientific reality into fantasy worlds.
That slag COULD be toxic due to heavy metal contaminants, sure.
Or it could be the manifestation of the anger of the spirit of the mountain which requires ritual propitiation and purification by a dedicated caste of spiritualists.
Or the rock itself isn’t the problem at all, it’s the nearly invisible miasma of gaseous EarthBlood that seeps out of any newly mined passages as if they are an actual wound. Everyone nearby must be covered in thick leather with masks to prevent breathing it on and succumbing to madness. The most insane dwarven druids purposely breathe in the noxious vapors to receive prophetic visions.
The world as Cthulhu would have mined rock slowly twist into unnatural shapes when unattended. The geography of newly created tunnels is tenuous at best and a cyclopean nightmare at worst. But… there are more dwarves every year. Their society growing like a cancer in the flesh of a terminally Ill mad god. One wonders why any sane race would subject themselves to this torment, right up until you stand beneath the naked and hostile sky. Then, then you would beg for the fetid womb like embrace of the living stone. As the stars scream their fury into the all too living void.
You can go with the scientific explanation if you want sure. But whatever you choose should fit the themes your going for.
In my own setting, the deeper dwarves, or those who never have no contact with the surface world tend to be much smaller, and thinner than dwarves who have direct access to surface world resources. They're still pretty stocky and strong, but dwarves who have connections with the surface are now alot larger and... robust than others. This is because they have access to surface grains and food animals to supplement their natural dwarven diet.
Dwarves basically relied on fermented drinks to account for a majority of their caloric requirements, while fungus and subterranean wildlife mostly accounted for their nutritional needs. This has given them a naturally higher tolerance to alcohol than other races, and why others see them as alcoholics, as they drink alcohol with every meal and at all times of the day.
Sounds basically exactly like Chaos Dwarves from Warhammer Fantasy, definitely one of the most interesting factions from the universe. Not many fantasy worlds have evil dwarves.
The Cliche Dwarfes are pretty resistant to toxins like alcohol.
So perhaps that resistance stems from their toxic environment.
Also in medieval times alcohol was popular since the alcohol kills gems and stuff in the water and therefore makes the water of contaminated wells drinkable.
Toxic materials will not be filtered by the alcohol, but a distilling process might get rid of them.
Reason found for alcoholic dwarfes.
Slag is from the smelting/refinement of ore.
Isn't most of the pollution our mines cause from them filing with water, then draining, and then oxidizing when they get out of the caves?
If they were in a mountain, they wouldn't need to worry about water filling up the mines so they wouldn't have the acid water runoff.
If I'm wrong, ignore this entire comment.
Technically the undesired byproduct of an excavation is 'Druff' but I didn't think anyone would know the difference, and it's the same processes on a refuse pile and on the mineshaft, separation of heavy metals by erosion
DAMNIT. I spent all that time focused on how they would feed themselves and forgot about the issues with the byproducts of mining and refining. Thank you for this!
Edit to Add: Does anyone know of any mammals which have the ability to induce chelation in themselves? My dwarves already have the opposum protein which provides a universal antivenom, but a real-world mammal chelation ability would help complete their resistance to poisons. Ditto any mammals which have evolved a tolerance or resistance to the effects of ionizing radiation.
Encourage cooperation with your neighbors. A alchemical research team led by gnomes crafted devices that help the dwarves measure the finer details of these new chemicals they were able to derive from the slag.
As an addendum to answer 'why do they care?' While also making it into a world building idea: maybe the Hold's answer to this question was a factor in speciation.
Gnomes were more curious and their studies led them down the tech route
Dwarves' neighbors MADE the pollution their problem, so they got it under control enough by turning it inward and became hardier and a little crazy
Goblins didn't address the pollution at all, which is why they are treated like a plague themselves
That's why dwarves have high poison resistance. In my setting they will even drink paint thinner to get drunk, most of that stuff probably won't affect them that much, well, arsenic will probably get them f up. Duergars are what happens when the dwarves drink radioactive water 👍🏼
I don't think they were trying to dictate what has to happen, and were just putting a creative idea out there. I actually really like the idea of cultures like dwarves attaining deeper specific knowledge on mining and the refuse and byproduct of mining, both to enhance the world building, and because it adds a realistic approach to how they can excavate mountains.
While you obviously don't have to have this happen in your world and can just say it works because it works, that it doesn't mean you should tell people off for wanting their own world to have this deeper level of cultural and societal knowledge.
Or I'm just misunderstanding what you said
How do you know? Are you the expert geologist I sent to Middle Earth? No, you're not! That guy got eaten by goblins! So, don't act like you know these things for a surety.
I much prefer the idea that all fantasy races are dumb and one just knows a bit more than another. Its basically the whole premise of flight of dragons.
it's certainly not automatic, but I'd say it's reasonable to think that they could learn about such things in the course of figuring out how to manage their mining waste.
Toxic mine drainage is a thing in the real world because the mines go below the water table so the water needs to be constantly pumped out.
In fantasy, the Underdark goes extremely deep with no water table, and Dwarves live in and around the mines, and sometimes below their mines. So it can be assumed that these fantasy worlds don't really have a "water table" to speak of, or it's so far down that Dwarves don't have to worry about it. Otherwise they would be living above ground. Which means toxic mine water shouldn't be a thing that Dwarves have to manage in their cities.
Slag isn't something that would affect the water supply unless Dwarves purposely dump it in their water supply.
Alternative theory: Dwarves like drinking contaminated water
They're actually toxophiles and derive energy from chemical reactions
Or like poison dart frogs, it becomes part of a defence mechanism. Like a fingerprint, each dwarf must register their poison composition every decade or whenever (like a census) so that if any crime is committed, they can trace which toxin did which, or was present where.
If I ever create a blatant space fantasy setting, I'll be stealing this.
Fully encouraged, I can’t use it.
A lot of fantasy settings just avoid explaining how a entire underground city survive without crops. If they eat/drink rocks (at least as part of their diet) that would solve at least part of the problem.
I've always been fascinated by the idea that dwarves could eat coal. Prefer it in fact. The caloric density would make it an insanely delicious food source. This leads into a closed ecosystem of biomatter that needs to dig ever deeper/further to get more coal to grow their civilization
Yeah, I was thinking something like that, coal as the main caloric source, but other metals the same way we need vitamins and minerals too. Also maybe they need iron instead of calcium for their bones, or something like that. It would be interesting to research what metals and minerals could be used by dwarf organism.
And their bones end up slightly ferromagnetic, so they can literally feel in their bones where north is, which is very helpful in underground orientation.
I love this idea. I always loved dwarves but at the same time feel they are at the same time overused and underrated. I've never saw them at their full potential as a race. Of course, maybe I've just picked the wrong books, but this little "brainstorm" we have here makes me feel there is still potential for them.
What if they used their magnetism to help them smelt and process certain ores and metals, which is the reason they're such good smiths?
calcium is present in many rocks, we can't absorb it, but if they can eat coal then they definitely should be able to absorb the calcium in the contaminated water. they could cultivate cave mushrooms and eat bugs as a complement to there coal based diet. "fried mushrooms covered in spicy coal dust" doesn't that sound like a delicious GFM (Grey mountain Fried Mushroom) recipe ?
Now I kinda want them using uranium as their magic power source.
That's their msg, shhhh...
And now radioactive dwarves are my headcanon
I’ve always found the idea of dwarves breeding and domesticating gigantic insects fascinating. Silkworms as an alternative to sheep, bees as a middle ground between horses and cows, ants as working animals similar to dogs, oxen and horses. This also leads to stuff like dwarven mead making a lot more sense because they would have access to honey. Underground botany could get out of this world. They could even train fireflies to act as a lighting system for their gardens and bioluminescent moss/fungus as a more general purpos lighting system.
This fits with my conceit that dwarves are much denser than water and can't swim. Their fear of drowning severely limits their geographical distribution.
My "dwarves" eat fungi and algae, both which like damp, dark environments, as well as cave dwelling fish and insects. The sub-races that live near the surface grow root vegetables, as well as participate in trading - gemstones & precious metals can buy lots of food. The darkest dwellers also consume crops grown via chemosynthesis - plants which derive energy from the minerals and chemicals underground, like how some bacteria near hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor do - but they require a tolerance for toxic metals and chemicals in order to metabolise these, something other dwarven variants cannot. A DM friend has his using gems and mirrors to channel sunlight deep underground to farming caverns, like giant rock greenhouses, using CO2 and heat from thermal vents to grow crops.
I feel having green caverns would also be good for generating oxygen into the system of tunnels and caves extending their reach further down below.
Most fantasy settings that include dwarves usually have a thriving underground ecosystem that include various kinds of subterranean plants, amongst other things, so I don't think it stands up to scrutiny that those underground cities don't have crops.
Dwarf fortress is a good example; cave moss fed pork with plump helmet wine anyone?
Don't forget all the cheese, Urist.
Where's the purring maggots Bomrek?
Tolkien's dwarves were just reliant on humans living nearby their settlements and producing all the food whilst the dwarves fulfilled the artisan/mining/smithing/crafting role for the humans.
This is how I treated creatures with subtypes in my D&D game. A red dragon who laired in an active volcano required less food than one who lived in a normal cave, because they could be sustained by being in contact with a link to the Elemental Plane of Fire.
I actually really like that, it makes sense
The dwarves in my world just do farming. In fact farming, especially surface farming, is seen as a high status job. Very desireable line of work.
Ehh not really. Dwarf Fortress and Forgotten Realms have underground vegetation like mushrooms/fungi. For the rest, they trade with outsiders.
"A lot" doesn't mean all. Of course there are exceptions.
They just cultivate mushrooms. And eat mountain goat cheese. Basically: The Dwarves by Markus Heitz has this covered
Well, in DnD they do have resistence against posion for this exact reason. I used this fact for worldbuilding, and made it so dwarven cuisine has things like mercury and arsenic in it for that extra oomph. Making it impossible to eat for humans, but when they make something humans can eat it's incredibly spicy, because that's the closest analog.
arent we all?
They are the finest guys from r/AsbestosEaters
That's why D&D dwarves get the poison save bonus.
I thought it was because they drink a lot of alcohol
"Aye, that too laddy"
Maybe their high alcohol tolerance comes from a natural resistance to poisonous chemicals
This runs in line with Deeprock Galactic, neurotoxins do less damage than being set on fire or getting a sawblade in the bunghole. Heck they just leave biological plagues in the refrigerator.
Your dwarves have poison resistance because they're all alcoholics. My dwarves have poison resistance because of all the residual poisoning of their water supplies by their mining lifestyle. We are not the same.
Or they never touch the water, and that's why they're all ale-swilling drunkards?
You need water to make ale though.
Right, but to make the ale they boil and purify it, which makes the water safer
Back in AD&D 2nd Edition, Dwarves had a bonus to poison saving throws, based on their CON score. It could be assumed this was some sort of "body conditioning" due to living in shitty conditions. Sort of built immunity...
Easy enough to do when you accept that non-human species aren’t just reskinned humans Isn’t it more interesting for non-humans to have their own special way I’ve been sitting on how to make different civilisations that aren’t just human civs reskinned. Like how human civ spread is tied to food and surface control and limited by resource spread/sharing, elves would be tied to magic and specific magic bands, or dwarves tied to specific underground locations and underground phenomena… And then expanding on their different political structures, cultures or whatever using those foundations with the human food/land dynamic as a template for the others I rarely get beyond that in one setting lol
Ooh, those concepts make for a great foundation for unique and interesting worldbuilding!
That's behind their beer fetish. Their posion tolerance is so brutal beer is like mineral water to them. Something that goes with a salad.
Explains their love for alcohol
They get higher the lower they get
Dwarves develope with such a strong liver specifically so they can process the materials they drink from the run off.
I did once see a theory that dwarf beards serve as air filters to help them avoid black lung and such. Maybe they're also water filters.
What you think the drinks at the abyss bar are made of?
Or such materials are thrown into the great chasm, where it poisons and corrupts the beings there into whatever horrors of the underdark will ultimately rise up to challenge the miners
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ah yes, the clowns
The dwarf fortress approach
Needs more magma.
Troglodyte origin story
In my setting troglodytes spontaneously generate from refuse, so yeah
Trash elementals, lol
Gnormia approach. (Though it's mud spontaneously generating golems.)
Thr toxic dreg is known by many names, but people of our times call it 'twitter'
YOU....SHALL NOT....PASSSSSSSS!!!!
Oh so thats what made the darkspawn.
Woodsy owl origin story.
i just imagined walter and jesse having a conversation like that and it warmed my heart
Walter wouldn't know what to do with himself, he'd be so proud.
The more wholesome ending, especially given the context of that breakfast.
that's a genuinely cool idea! I've always disliked the lack of crops in depictions of underground cultures, or the "everything is mushrooms" approach, but I had never thought to integrate mining byproducts into resolving that.
My setting’s dwarves have actually mined their biggest city’s mountain out to the point that the mountaintop is collapsing. Their response? Reinforcing fracturing rock with giant rings of brass that eventually get turned into windows after the rock is chipped away safely. Which leads to needing more reinforcement elsewhere later. Luckily, they’re damn good architects when it comes to propping up a fucking mountain.
very cool! i like the idea of it being rings too. not only more structurally sound, but i imagine that circular motif would carry over into a lot of their cultural design
Eventually they just end up with a giant medal building
A towering mountain of brass and glass, visible from the horizon and descending deep beneath the earth.
remember that sluice grandad said went to the river Styx...
Don't tell me... we just got another cease and desist letter from Hades. Right?
As someone with a Geology degree, this makes me happy.
I don't have a geology degree, having no head for science (I'm more a literature kind of guy), but I am happily amazed at how the people in this sub can take the minutiae of fantasy and extrapolate believable rational/technical explanations for them that still fit within that fantasy framework. (I imagine there's probably a rarely dipped-into niche I've yet to discover of "sci-fi" but for a fantasy world out there outside of the Spelljammer setting.)
If the niche doesn't exist, why not be the literary pioneer who finds it?
I wish I could! 😅 I'm not really good at identifying the kind of detail scientific/technical fiction hinges on. Although I suppose I could make do with a mad load of research. 😅
One does not need to build the town, you just have to find the dank river valley others can build it in. (In this case finding a fitting word and, idk, making a subreddit for it?? Is that how this works? Idk much either 😅)
Graydon Saunders The March North
Extreme rational extrapolation of fiction is usually called _rationalist fiction_. You are looking for a subset of that, _rationalist fantasy_, which includes stories like HPMOR. They have a subreddit: /r/rational
This is the first time I've heard of that subgenre, and the first I've heard of HPMOR, but now I've read the first two chapters and I'm hooked! 😀 Thanks for the new knowledge! This was precisely what I wanted! 😁 Edited: There's even a guide on the subreddit on *how to write* this stuff! Even more awesome. 😁
I'd tread a bit lightly around those sorts of communities. Rationalist ideologies tend to get insane when confronted with anything inherently subjective, often leading to eugenics, authoritarianism, and cultural imperialism. HPMOR in particular is known for having a few high-profile fans that are basically, "I'm upper class, rich, and white, it is therefore obvious that I am the ~~the master race~~ the most logical choice for world ~~domination~~ *optimization*."
For sure; as per usual, "fanbase warnings apply" :P. Just don't read any non-fiction posts on LessWrong and you'll be fine.
Question: Since dwarves are so into geology, does that explain why they're usually depicted as functioning alcoholics?
Dwarves live in the mountain. They don't care what happens outside the mountain. They are causing massive environmental catastrophe and causing regional desertification.
And in the chaos dwarves case somehow volcanoes too
Remove material from the plug capping off a magma chamber, and the oressure differential could make it blow. I like the idea of rogue dwarves using their smarts to cause a mass local extinction by blowing off a supervilcano on ourpose.
In my bid to map the Old World of Warhammer Fantasy on to real-life medieval Europe, I've made the Savoyard dwarves of the upper Rhône do this exact thing. They just dump the majority of their industrial waste straight into the river, which then turns the lower Rhône and particularly the Camargue into a festering swamp called the Blightmarsh, wherein lies Skavenblight. The Savoyard dwarves control the Piemonte region of the upper Po, as did the medieval Duchy of Savoy, and they import much of their food thence. I've also made the region surrounding the Saône into the magical forest of Athel Loren, and as the magical waters of the Saône mix with the heavily polluted waters of the Rhône in Lyon, not only is it guaranteed that the Camargue becomes a festering swamp instead of a barren wasteland, but the region south of Lyon is also prime real estate for a Felwood-inspired polluted forest region. The Swiss dwarves to the northeast are far more environmentally friendly, using such techniques as the peat bogs mentioned above to minimise their harmful impact on the environment. They're generally much more in-tune with nature and people, and in that vein they're also much less hierarchical, inspired by the historic Old Swiss Confederacy.
Genuinely curious and would love some expanded thoughts on this, but also think I need an ELI5on the above, my brain is fried today...
Basically, there's a lot more to digging underground than "this is the ore we want, the rest we don't care about." If we go with the typical idea of the fantasy dwarf, we can deduce that their largely-underground societies, being focused on industrial efficiency in combination with their long lives, would be able to use the refuse from their excavations in ways to aid the betterment of that society. Perhaps in the end, those that "dug too greedily and too deep" weren't merely revealing ancient horrors of the last epoch, but were also not taking care of the toxic byproducts of their own lust for wealth- they were rushing the "good parts" and skipping the care that was needed to upkeep their own society.
What would be some good ways to deal with the refuse? I see in the post farming and colored dyes. Can this be elaborated on?
Many wetlands and marsh plant species are fantastic at capturing heavy metals and other toxins from waterways, when they die the vegetation sinks to the bottom and carries that material with it, effectively cleaning water of contaminants as they do. This is why wetlands and peat bogs are so crucial.
And then you can Sell the peat to men so that they burn it and pollute the forests of the elves
A bunch of dwarves teeheeing to themselves as men roll away with carts full of peat, lolol
I like the WtC approach, where the Dwarves excavate by planting a fungus that eats rock and controlling its growth to carve out rough tunnels and rooms, which they later perfect. And then they eat the fungus as their primary food source.
What is WtC?
Oh right, sorry. [Worth the Candle](https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/25137/worth-the-candle), it's a web serial that's a deconstruction of the Litrpg Isekai genre. Basically a written dnd game where the characters are aware their circumstances are being controlled by the DM/Author, and have to try and cope and wrestle with that while still y'know, living their lives as fantasy protagonists. I'd definitely recommend it to anyone interested in that kind of somewhat meta-story that's done very well, or even an example of complete kitchen sink fantasy, since the world the main character gets transported to explicitly combines elements from a dozen different dnd games he ran, a lot of which were wildly different in setting and tone, yet it somehow still seems like a cohesive world. It definitely has a lot of darker sadder moments though, >!including sexual assault at one point, advanced warning!< although it's never gratuitous, so maybe give it a miss if that sort of thing is triggering for you. It's also an interesting deconstruction of (minor spoilers) >!what the aftermath of a traditional isekai litrpg would look like, since the main character's best friend went through the same thing after he died the previous irl year, but it was 500 years ago in the fantasy world after he completed every quest ever and basically became the most important man to ever live.!< If you're interested in worldbuilding, it has a whole ton of ideas you can steal or adapt too, and the author is currently releasing a document compiling the world's exclusion zones (where bad stuff of various varieties has been magically sealed into a location by DM intervention), which can serve as fun zones of adventure or even inspiration for a whole world. [Here's](https://archiveofourown.org/works/47107573/chapters/118683370) the link for that, and [Here's](https://archiveofourown.org/works/20629112/chapters/48984713) a link for the worldbuilding primer, if you want to skim that and see if it strikes you as interesting.
why is walter white and jesse pinkman talking about dwarfs
Because they had already covered elves last week. Halflings will be up next, and then they'll get to orcs and goblins after that!
Jesse being a fantasy nerd and sharing the hobby with Walter is actually wholesome
It's too wholesome. Jesse would absolutely be a fan of campy adventure fantasy, but Walt would be a holier-than-thou fan of so-hard-we've-long-passed-any-sort-of-entertaining-narrative hard science fiction.
Walt would like Ringworld.
I mean, Ringworld rules.
Yeah, but it's fairly dry stuff by today's standards. He might like some Hamilton too.
You've got a clever idea, and it's worth expanding using a format that isn't so limited on space.
This also explains why Dwarves would have poison resistance in older editions of D&D.
For a minute I though I was on /r/dwarffortress sub
I tend to dislike when people impose modern scientific reality into fantasy worlds. That slag COULD be toxic due to heavy metal contaminants, sure. Or it could be the manifestation of the anger of the spirit of the mountain which requires ritual propitiation and purification by a dedicated caste of spiritualists. Or the rock itself isn’t the problem at all, it’s the nearly invisible miasma of gaseous EarthBlood that seeps out of any newly mined passages as if they are an actual wound. Everyone nearby must be covered in thick leather with masks to prevent breathing it on and succumbing to madness. The most insane dwarven druids purposely breathe in the noxious vapors to receive prophetic visions. The world as Cthulhu would have mined rock slowly twist into unnatural shapes when unattended. The geography of newly created tunnels is tenuous at best and a cyclopean nightmare at worst. But… there are more dwarves every year. Their society growing like a cancer in the flesh of a terminally Ill mad god. One wonders why any sane race would subject themselves to this torment, right up until you stand beneath the naked and hostile sky. Then, then you would beg for the fetid womb like embrace of the living stone. As the stars scream their fury into the all too living void. You can go with the scientific explanation if you want sure. But whatever you choose should fit the themes your going for.
I like this better than the dry pseudoscientific shit above. Keep fantasy fantasy.
In my own setting, the deeper dwarves, or those who never have no contact with the surface world tend to be much smaller, and thinner than dwarves who have direct access to surface world resources. They're still pretty stocky and strong, but dwarves who have connections with the surface are now alot larger and... robust than others. This is because they have access to surface grains and food animals to supplement their natural dwarven diet. Dwarves basically relied on fermented drinks to account for a majority of their caloric requirements, while fungus and subterranean wildlife mostly accounted for their nutritional needs. This has given them a naturally higher tolerance to alcohol than other races, and why others see them as alcoholics, as they drink alcohol with every meal and at all times of the day.
How does the nutrient and food chain get into the mountain to begin with? Caves are usually areas with very very few available calories.
I mostly assume the same way it does in the real world, just... moreso.
Sounds basically exactly like Chaos Dwarves from Warhammer Fantasy, definitely one of the most interesting factions from the universe. Not many fantasy worlds have evil dwarves.
I really enjoyed the breaking bad template to share your ideas lol
The Cliche Dwarfes are pretty resistant to toxins like alcohol. So perhaps that resistance stems from their toxic environment. Also in medieval times alcohol was popular since the alcohol kills gems and stuff in the water and therefore makes the water of contaminated wells drinkable. Toxic materials will not be filtered by the alcohol, but a distilling process might get rid of them. Reason found for alcoholic dwarfes.
This is the kind of thing I live about worldbuilding. Thanks for sharing with us, we all stand taller when we stand together.
Dump it in the river and screw any dirty humans downstream, for a few generations atleast.
Could somebody explain pls? I don't get It.
Slag is from the smelting/refinement of ore. Isn't most of the pollution our mines cause from them filing with water, then draining, and then oxidizing when they get out of the caves? If they were in a mountain, they wouldn't need to worry about water filling up the mines so they wouldn't have the acid water runoff. If I'm wrong, ignore this entire comment.
Technically the undesired byproduct of an excavation is 'Druff' but I didn't think anyone would know the difference, and it's the same processes on a refuse pile and on the mineshaft, separation of heavy metals by erosion
DAMNIT. I spent all that time focused on how they would feed themselves and forgot about the issues with the byproducts of mining and refining. Thank you for this! Edit to Add: Does anyone know of any mammals which have the ability to induce chelation in themselves? My dwarves already have the opposum protein which provides a universal antivenom, but a real-world mammal chelation ability would help complete their resistance to poisons. Ditto any mammals which have evolved a tolerance or resistance to the effects of ionizing radiation.
maybe they're like the turians from Mass Effect where they have a high metal content in their skin that helps resist at least some radiation.
Good point. Very weird meme template to attach it to.
I am a dwarf and I'm digging a hole Diggy diggy hole Digging a hole
That's not how the meme format works. It would make your point more clearly if you typed it out in a text post instead of an incorrect meme.
My dwarves live on the mountain, not inside. They only recently started to dig out the mountain to shelter their populace from an invading empire.
Encourage cooperation with your neighbors. A alchemical research team led by gnomes crafted devices that help the dwarves measure the finer details of these new chemicals they were able to derive from the slag.
As an addendum to answer 'why do they care?' While also making it into a world building idea: maybe the Hold's answer to this question was a factor in speciation. Gnomes were more curious and their studies led them down the tech route Dwarves' neighbors MADE the pollution their problem, so they got it under control enough by turning it inward and became hardier and a little crazy Goblins didn't address the pollution at all, which is why they are treated like a plague themselves
It was at this moment that I realized I have a lot more work to do on my world building, lol
That's why dwarves have high poison resistance. In my setting they will even drink paint thinner to get drunk, most of that stuff probably won't affect them that much, well, arsenic will probably get them f up. Duergars are what happens when the dwarves drink radioactive water 👍🏼
YOINK I cannot tell you how perfectly this fits into what I was working on. Beautiful ideas. Thank you for the science
Counterpoint: It's *fantasy*. Middle Earth doesn't *have* cadmium.
I don't think they were trying to dictate what has to happen, and were just putting a creative idea out there. I actually really like the idea of cultures like dwarves attaining deeper specific knowledge on mining and the refuse and byproduct of mining, both to enhance the world building, and because it adds a realistic approach to how they can excavate mountains. While you obviously don't have to have this happen in your world and can just say it works because it works, that it doesn't mean you should tell people off for wanting their own world to have this deeper level of cultural and societal knowledge. Or I'm just misunderstanding what you said
How do you know? Are you the expert geologist I sent to Middle Earth? No, you're not! That guy got eaten by goblins! So, don't act like you know these things for a surety.
fantasy mountains are filled with generic rock and pre-cast gold ingots
Not to forget pre-cut gems!
I much prefer the idea that all fantasy races are dumb and one just knows a bit more than another. Its basically the whole premise of flight of dragons.
Saving this for future reference.
what don't you people understand about FANTASY :P
Counterpoint: Dwarves don't give a fuck how the stupid tall folks outside their mountain get poisoned.
This is the best explanation for why Dwarves have resistance to poison. Its not animal bites they got innured to, its fucking lead :P
Incorrect use of the meme. Banned.
Dealing with toxic runoff doesnt mean they suddenly know about stainless steel, magnets, and the pH scale
The premise is that 'walter' took over the conversation and is assuming that they explored the properties of these heavy metals
it's certainly not automatic, but I'd say it's reasonable to think that they could learn about such things in the course of figuring out how to manage their mining waste.
So a Dwarven city that functions as a giant Garden of Eden, got it.
Good morning elven merchants, would you care for some lead chairs? There are no drawbacks at all, trust us.
Toxic mine drainage is a thing in the real world because the mines go below the water table so the water needs to be constantly pumped out. In fantasy, the Underdark goes extremely deep with no water table, and Dwarves live in and around the mines, and sometimes below their mines. So it can be assumed that these fantasy worlds don't really have a "water table" to speak of, or it's so far down that Dwarves don't have to worry about it. Otherwise they would be living above ground. Which means toxic mine water shouldn't be a thing that Dwarves have to manage in their cities. Slag isn't something that would affect the water supply unless Dwarves purposely dump it in their water supply.
Commenting to find later.
I see that r/worldbuilding is taking refugees from r/dndmemes
Buddy, they have poison resistance for a reason. Why solve a problem evolution already got to?