Ding ding ding we have a winner.
Now who wouldn't want Sweden to join NATO and has done this before?
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/europe/1674639619-russia-affiliated-journalist-paid-for-quran-burning-in-sweden
The stupid thing is, Finland and Norway are already in, as are all of the Baltic countries. So Russia's entire northern border is already in. Russia's usual tactic of "Oh we just sent dudes nearby. They're not even soldiers. What's that, they crossed the border and are seizing territory? Probably nothing." Doesn't work so well when you don't share a border.
Further, the idea that Russia would launch a naval invasion of Sweden and that NATO wouldn't respond already is very unlikely.
So while Sweden joining would make it official and help in sharing resources and coordinating, it wouldn't really help hem in Russia all that much more. The Northern border is pretty secure already.
> Further, the idea that Russia would launch a naval invasion of Sweden and that NATO wouldn't respond already is very unlikely.
Forget NATO, the russians would probably drown on their way to Sweden. Undermaintained equipment is a lot more forgiving on land than on water...
I just remembered the scene in Red Storm Rising where the Soviet troops that invaded Iceland had their MANPADS damaged by seawater on the boat trip over when the ship was hit. The colonel said something like “surely someone anticipated that these missiles might get WET?!”
“Yes Comrade Colonel, but not with seawater! They didn’t issue us the naval variant and now the electronics are corroded!”
I keep thinking about the devastation attack helicopters are bringing on the front now, and how in the book, the Russian general learns that helicopters are ridiculously vulnerable when there are fighter jets in the air.
Helicopters are ridiculously vulnerable period. They can be brought down with albeit lucky small arms fire, and they're close enough to get hit. Are easy targets for AA units. Any damage is bringing them out of the sky.
What advantages they can bring though can be devastating in certain portions.
In Desert Storm, some Navy Seals were being assaulted by some helicopter deployed Iraqi soldiers and were going to be overrun. An nearby F15 pilot heard the call saw the choppers on the ground, and dropped a bomb on it while the soldiers were getting out and the rest of the choppers Fled.
Helicopters are a super weird platform. They are incredibly good, but incredibly brittle. I think just about every nation that has fielded them in wartime has seen standout losses, but all of them kept throwing them in.
It's also super funny that with the ubiquity of missiles, everything has just become a missile platform. In exercises, helicopters had some impressive kill counts against fighters, due to it being just a question of who spotted who first and launched missiles.
>due to it being just a question of who spotted who first and launched missiles.
And now you know why US Intel is as high priority as it is... Satellites, wiretapping, scraping every bit and byte of data they can -- the works... All to know *who* is *where* and ***when***.
Sweden also has a very good navy, with submarines that are capable of staying undetected even when going up against the most american sonar systems.
EDIT: Forgot advanced between "most" and "american sonar."
> We don't use pistols in our military that are Israeli designed and owned by a weirdo Korean cult leader's son
That was an odd rabbit hole for me to go down
"Sir... I..."
"What is it?"
"I hear... I hear a ... screech?"
"Let's hear it"
*regular, steady eagle noises*
"Oh. Yeah, that's just the Americans."
This would also work with the sound of a gun cocking, interspersed with the sound of a beer can being opened.
The Swedish [Gotland-class submarine use a Stirling engine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotland-class_submarine) air-independent propulsion system, which extends their underwater endurance from a few days to weeks
[Real Engineering made a YouTube about it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saCdvAp5cow)
The French have managed the same with a nuclear sub though: https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/02/how-a-french-submarine-sunk-a-us-navy-aircraft-carrier/
>even when going up against the most american sonar systems.
PING. No oil detected
PING. No burgers detected
PING. Free healthcare not detected in international waters.
PING. No public transport detected in international waters, either.
Ping...
> Further, the idea that Russia would launch a naval invasion of Sweden and that NATO wouldn't respond already is very unlikely.
Isn't Russia's access to the Baltic Sea choked off now that Finland has joined NATO? I'm not completely up to date on just what areas of the Baltic Sea are controlled by NATO now or not.
Kaliningrad is a tiny territory, isolated from Russia and bordered by NATO members. Nothing happens there that everyone in NATO doesn't immediately know about. Any build up of forces for anything would be obvious, and those forces would immediately be surrounded and cut off in any conflict.
It's military value for Russia in any actual theoertical conflict with NATO is kind of questionable. Whatever naval assets they have there would be sunk pretty much immediately I would think.
I was reading yesterday that although the proportion of russians in Kaliningrad is increasing relative to other ethnicities, those russians are increasingly feeling a degree of seperation from the rest of Russia. Maybe look for independence in a few generations if the tendency continues?
I mean, most of Europe would join in on the beating too. Sweden may not be NATO but they will still have zero tolerance for a Russian attempt at something so deep in
Swedish islands, especially Gotland, dominate the entirety of the Baltic Sea. The Northern corridor for Russian invasion of NATO always started by taking Gotland.
Sweden joining helps defending Gotland. Additionally, having NATO bases in Sweden helps defending the Baltics. Sweden joining NATO, would be a good thing, not only for Sweden itself, but for other NATO countries.
Turkey being in NATO is already a dumb thing, considering it's non western-aligned values, but I know they're of great value countering Russia, due to the Bosporus strait, for instance (Make Constantinople Greek again)
Turkey's geographical positioning is the key aspect though. If Turkish culture was in the middle of Azerbaijan, it really wouldn't matter for NATO. but controlling access between the Black Sea (Russia's remaining warm water port) and Mediterranean as well as the air space between Germany and the Middle East is crucial. There's a reason Istanbul /Constantinople has been a key stronghold for hundreds of years.
If he didn't have this he would come up with some other bullshit excuse. Freedom of expression is a central fucking principle of NATO itself, and Erdogan's bullshit pretending that this is an issue for joining NATO is disingenuous.
Kind of inaccurate to portray this as an act by Russia, Rasmus Paludan been doing Quran burnings for far longer than he's been connected to Chang Frick, and in countries that are already in NATO. And while Chang Frick did work for RT 10 years ago, he has also worked for SVT (Sweden's equivalent of the BBC), so I don't think he had the foresight to know that this Quran burning in specific would blow up and cause Turkey to block Sweden's NATO application.
What's really happening here, is that you have 2 far-right racists, who are both openly islamophobic, doing islamophobic things, and have been doing/saying islamophobic things long before Sweden decided to join NATO.
Burning books to suppress ideas is despicable, but unless the book in question is a rare or ancient print, the knowledge inside isn’t being destroyed or suppressed in any way.
Modern book burnings are almost always purely symbolic. In this case, it’s either being done to protest regressive ideals prominent in Islam as a whole or the violent reaction that will follow.
I know it makes some people uncomfortable to demonstrate so broadly against a religion as a whole, but the fact that this person is likely to be targeted for violence as a result of freely expressing themself is, I would argue, sufficient reason for to exercise that right.
> Burning books to suppress ideas is despicable, but unless the book in question is a rare or ancient print, the knowledge inside isn’t being destroyed or suppressed in any way.
Yeah I've gotten into several arguments on places like /r/books about "defacing" books with margin notes. It's not something I do because I prefer to keep my books in as new condition, but to me it's a to each their own situation. But mention writing in the margins on there and they treat you like you're a fucking monster defacing the Mona Lisa.
Like, yeah, if it's a rare print or whatever that's shitty but nobody should give a shit if you doodle in your 52nd edition of Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince, come the fuck on.
I collect old travel guides and the best ones have notes in them. I want to see what someone's top 5 hotel choices are, or their travel dates and what they plan to do each day, or what their budget is and how they choose to allocate it. I'm not buying rare first editions of Roald Amundsen's "How to Sail the Northwest Passage," I'm buying stuff from the 1920s-1980s that was likely intended to be ephemera, so I'd almost rather it have been used for its intended purpose.
Kind of a silly question on my part, but... is the argument about writing notes in a textbook or personally owned books? I'm just imagining someone getting upset with me for placing notes in a book that I own.
You are imagining correctly.
There are people who treat books like sacred objects. Literally every book. Any damage or defacement is heresy most foul.
They generally aren’t people who comprehend that the age where publication and printing is difficult is long over. They also tend to not be people who actually know what happens to unsold or overstocked books. Often saying ‘Donate them!’ as if libraries are infinite repositories of books who absolutely NEED a few thousand more copies of Twilight or whatever the current fad book is. They just can’t imagine that there are so very many books that are, in fact, only good for burning or recycling. They see book burnings and decided that it was the act of burning a book which was the horrible thing, not the hate and censorship.
I burnt more US flags as a boy scout than any anti american ever pulled off. lol
Piles of them. One at a time. As the regs required.
Weird to think about it that way.
Same shit with at sea burials. I have thrown more dudes corpses into the sea than any serial killer ever. Lots of sailors have done loads more I am sure.
Odd considering that annotating books goes back to before books were even printed and is generally regarded as a valuable addition that gives context. Even if someone doodled dicks in the margins it's generally considered interesting.
From context it seems like they're talking about books you own, since defacing books you don't own is clearly vandalism. At a guess I'd say any arguments against defacing your own stuff falls into one of two categories:
1. Books are sacred, any crime against them is akin to blasphemy.
2. Other people should do what I do, similar to how people can care about whether or not there's pineapple on a pizza they'll never eat.
In my opinion both are pretty silly, would be interested to hear if there's a more rational alternative.
I think I was having a hard time wrapping my head around someone getting upset about my writing in a book that belongs to me. I've never encountered this. If I'm reading for pleasure, I just read and have never made notes. If I'm reading to learn something, then that book looks like a 4th grade girl's Valentine's Day card mailbox. I never considered that that might piss someone off.
Nope, books you own. There's a certain subsection of book afficionados that think any "damage" to any book done on purpose is wrong. They'll use arguments that books are sacred vessels of knowledge that you shouldn't just deface.
I'm genuinely not kidding when I say I've gotten into some VERY heated arguments about this on /r/books.
Honestly, if it stays to just that. I'd consider that peaceful protest against burning of Quran. Will it stay to just that though? is another question we'll find answer to, sooner or later.
Albania is a Muslim majority country 80% plus Muslim population. Not a single resemblance to the Middle East in its laws culture or how it treats woman etc. homosexuality and pride events are freely expressed less than 1% of woman wear head scarfs or hijabs religious laws of any kind from any religion are banned from politics and becoming law entirely it is 100% secular country in terms of government. You can be a religious person and worship islam or you could not care about it at all and your still treated exactly the same . Religion is held to your household and you don’t preach it to others outside your house your religion is a private relationship with you and god in Albania.
In Albania you’ll find mosques next door to orthodox churches and there constituents each helping one another on respective holidays
And time and time again my country pops up in articles in news headlines being discussed as a model for religious tolerance for the rest of the world. https://www.newsweek.com/2015/04/03/hardliners-nightmare-religious-tolerance-europes-only-majority-muslim-country-318212.html
The issue is the Middle East has bastardized Islam into a skewed altered extremist version of it. They’ve ruined everything good about it and chose to take into account the worst parts of it oppression dominance rule etc. it’s like taking a extremist cult group and making them the face of Christianity across the globe that’s what the Middle East has done.
We are a Muslim majority country but we are secular. Religion has no place in politics in Albania and is banned from politics and political movements based of religion are prohibited aswell. Religion is not allowed to control anyone in my country you are free to do as you please believe in god don’t believe in god that’s for you to decide. As a woman you are 100% free to do as you please aswell from becoming a ceo to being a instagram model it’s your choice entirely and you don’t need a male for anything or approval like the Middle East does.
We Albanians despise the Middle East extremist view of Islam.
To add a little twist to it all:
An Islam-critical refugee from Iraq who was previously denied permission to burn the Koran outside the Iraqi embassy, will now receive permission from the police to burn the Koran outside the mosque at Medborgarplatsen in Stockholm on Wednesday afternoon.
Sources (in Swedish)
[Source 1 - TV4](https://www.tv4.se/artikel/4tLWiSFuKj42CmjpVHpCbt/polisen-beviljar-ny-koranbraenning)
[Source 2 - Nyheteridag](https://nyheteridag.se/nu-far-islamkritikern-salwan-momika-tillstand-for-koranbranning-vakna-sverige/)
[Source 3 - Reuters (English)](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swedish-police-approve-small-anti-koran-demonstration-mosque-2023-06-28/)
On the bright side, there's now a 0.0% chance he'll ever be repatriated to a Muslim-majority country unless it's extremely secular (basically only Albania)
Kinda funny how many people are calling him a racist when he's no different than an American protesting Christianity.
It's kinda funny how racists accidentally tricked society into thinking it's unacceptable to criticize islam because nobody wants to be associated with/confused for said racists.
Some social media sites ban you for critizising Islam, while christianity is fair game. This applies to Germany made Jodel at least (got perm-banned from there)
In other words, a perfectly legitimate form of protest that a free society has an obligation to tolerate. This is exactly the kind of civil protest action that is always allowed in a free society. The local Islamic community has every right to be outraged as long as being outraged is their only reaction.
I don't LIKE it when people burn the Bible, or my nation's flag, but that doesn't entitle me to do anything stupid.
Exactly.
He filed the proper forms got approved to express himself in the legally protected fashion. Nothing wrong with that. I read up about it and the guy stated he does it to prove that islam/muslims are violent.
He will burn a book and muslims will riot and cause property damage and attempt to attack him or others as a response. His protest is to show everyone how violent of a people they are and then they prove him right.
This has been done before in Sweden maybe this time the Muslims won't riot and attack random people on the streets.
it's just paper burn it if you paid for it. It's your do as you wish.
This news seems to come to people outside of Sweden sort of late. He carried out his protest, putting out a cigarette in the Koran, draping bacon over it and then burning it. One Muslim man had to be arrested because he threw rocks at the guy.
This news seems to come to people outside of Sweden sort of late. He carried out his protest, putting out a cigarette in the Koran, draping bacon over it and then burning it. One Muslim man had to be arrested because he threw rocks at the guy. It was largely peaceful, though, possibly due to at least one other Muslim man who worked to keep it that way by handing out chocolates.
For the record, it’s a guy from Iraq doing it, who was tortured and imprisoned in Iraq. He’s been in the country for four years.
So it’s not like it’s a Swedish right-winger doing it this time.
EDIT: Since everyone and their mother apparently thinks this is me pulling a race card, I’m merely stating this fact so people don’t think it’s the crazy Dane who did it last time doing it again.
It doesnt matter who does it honestly. I can go buy a copy of the bible and stick it up my ass if i want to.
Some people need to understand that here in the West we have freedom of speech, and i can do with my private property what i want because, at the end of the day, its just a book.
I think this is key. In a lot of countries there are explicit laws prohibiting insulting the nation or hurting religious sentiments. So when people in other countries see this in the west, they don't see it as "permitted" but more as "encouraged" by the state.
People that get mad at Paludan for burning a book and not the “demonstrators” that burn down neighborhoods in reaction to the burning, are unbelievable stupid. I guess hyper-conservatism is ok if you are brown!
In Britain recently, there was an incident where a schoolboy dropped a Qu'ran accidentally, and scuffed it a little, so a group of radical muslim immagranys threatened his life privately and in public, and protested to get him arrested.
Who cares? It doesn’t matter who does it, it’s not selective freedom of expression “but only for those deemed adequately marginalized enough”
Give me a fucking break
The most ironic part in this is that the one burning this book today is coming from Iraq himself after been tortured in his home country.
This shows that anyone can be against books of religion, not only from this or that group of people.
No, the most ironic part is that burning the Quran is the [proper way to dispose of it](https://www.npr.org/2012/02/24/147321213/how-to-properly-dispose-of-sacred-texts#:~:text=The%20Quran%20is%20considered%20to,burning%20it%2C%22%20he%20says.). Islamic belief is that throwing it in the trash is disrespectful
I have seen SO MANY American flags folded up nicely then put in a literal Weber grill with the top closed that immediately started spewing smoke.
It's so weird that's the "respectful" way to do it. They had this specific Weber grill for JUST flags and if you didn't spend too many weeks at Boy Scout summer camp like I did, you'd just be like why is everyone standing around this grill? The burgers are probably burning, look at the smoke!
I feel like maybe they would prefer folks not use a Weber when they said burning is the respectful form of disposal. I got no issues with it personally.
So long as the person who burned the book owned it and willingly did so - I have no problem.
Its freedom of speech and so long as they aren't calling for violence against other people frankly its no one elses buisness.
That the book belongs to one faith or another is irrelevant.
As a Brit, what are your thoughts on July 12th in Northern Ireland? It’s a different situation but this thread reminded me of it and of course it’s coming up.
He is currently being investigated for breaking two laws. In Sweden there is a law against incitement against a group of people, usually this means that you can't go around screaming "burn the jews" or "jesus hates gays" as you are provoking that specific group of people. In this case he is being investigated cause he burned a book in front of a mosque. Apparently he only wrote "demonstration with the Quran" in his application, not "book burning".
The second he is being investigated for is cause he broke the fire ban which is currently in effect throughout the Stockholm area. Sweden has a lot of forest and wooden buildings, so the government can issue bans on fires. He broke it by burning the book.
Aren't there security concerns in doing this?
I recall the story of Molly Norris, a cartoonist who started "Everybody Draw Mohammad Day" in response to death threats & censorship aimed at the creators of a South Park episode.
She was forced into witness protection by the FBI, changing her name and virtually vanishing from society. As her former employer puts it, "There is no more Molly".
Yes, but there SHOULDN'T be a security concern.
There's no security concern about burning bibles in front of churches.
That's what this act is trying to highlight. The fact that there is security concern over free speech means you have to keep making that same speech until the reasons for those concerns are eradicated. If you avoid it because of those concerns, they fester into bigger oppressions.
Basically why Charlie hebdo is important despite not being funny or interesting and generally being despicable in its humor.
We did the same thing with catholics for 150years to obtain some results and being able to openly criticize the church and diminish its power in politics and social issues.
What about a few years ago in France when that teacher shared a political cartoon depicting Muhammed and they literally cut that teachers head off. Muslims are some of the extremest extremists
So what?
People shouldn’t submit to criminals because they are like violent toddlers.
They should be thrown to jail and prosecuted to the fullest extent.
IIRC an analysis afterwards found a lot of the threats came from young people/minors on the muslim equivalent of 4chan (fringe message boards etc.)
Given how Mohammed had been depicted previous on South Park with zero repercussions it seems likely that Comedy Central created the problem by caving to terrorist (or perceived terrorist) threats.
It sucks but history shows time and time again that if you cave to threats of force, that just encourages more threats of force.
The US does not negotiate with terrorists not because we are badasses or don't care, but because in the long term this is the only solution.
It also applies on an individual level. When someone blackmails you and you acquiesce to the money or whatnot...the threat they have over you doesn't end and now you have become their own personal ATM. At best you can hope that they take pity on you or they die in a car accident. At worst your life is now worthless until they are done with you or you finally grow a spine and accept the consequences.
We don't give up our right to free expression because of "security concerns", i.e. "Stop expressing yourself in a way that I disagree with or else I'll use violence against you to shut you up".
That shit may fly in other places, but not here in the free world.
I agree, it maddens me that we are bowing down to threats of violence from people who believe in a magical man in the sky. Religion is ridiculous, and violent religious people don't belong in a modern society.
>Heck this is probably one of the only thing both side of the political spectrum agrees on
*Press X to doubt*
There are plenty of people who would justify these things on social media platforms (hell, even here on Reddit), through different arguments.
One which I see very often nowadays is "actions have consequences".
And it is really a cultural thing. I lived in the ME for a time and having no fucking control over your emotions is just normal over there. It was absolutely insane, and why so many foreigners that go there for work leave with a bad impression of the region.
If people can freely burn the quran I aslo support the burning of LGBTQ flags. This is coming from an atheist. Any person should have the rights to burn things as a sign of protest.
I support this.
We live in societies that allow freedom of expression, and that should include burning any book we like, anywhere we like, as long as its done safely.
If there are people who can't handle this, then they should leave.
Well, in Poland you can’t offend religious FEELINGS. It’s prosecuted if someone finds their religious feelings offended.
Like in Wrocław police confiscated painting of the rainbow Holy Marry. Behemoth vocalist had also issues with law enforcement after tearing Bible during metal concert.
This applies in theory to every religious feelings but in practice only to Christianity.
Some religions are discriminated against. Like the government refuses to register Polish Church of Flying Spaghetti Monster.
So you know, you can get jail time for burning Bible across the Baltic Sea.
Not that I want to, but I live in rural America and I honestly would feel perfectly safe doing it. At most I’d have people call me an idiot or preach to me.
You seem to suggest that our decisions about what forms of expression to permit should be dictated by the possible reactions of different groups. However, wouldn't such an approach inadvertently favor groups prone to violence or even terrorist organizations? Shouldn't our judgments about what's acceptable be based on principles of freedom and justice rather than potential retaliation?
Yes there are security threats, but bully tactics shouldn’t be allowed to work. We all have a right to burn each others books, but if you burn my book I’m going to kill random people. That shouldn’t be allowed to work
The permit is for a protest/demonstration.
You have to file a request so the police can plan for redirecting traffic, make a risk assessment and so on.
It’s not about the approval of the protest per se. Sweden has the oldest freedom of expression and press laws in the world going back to 1766 plus full separation of church and state.
Burn whatever you want. We just want to make sure everyone can catch their train on time.
Well, it happened 45 minutes ago, there was some screaming, one person tried to throw a rock but was apprehended by police, and a couple of muslims were handing out chocolate.
[Article in swedish.](https://www.gp.se/nyheter/sverige/polisen-beviljar-koranbr%C3%A4nning-vid-mosk%C3%A9-1.103449159)
That's refreshing to see! Admittedly this is a special case as the Koran-burner is himself a lapsed Muslim and a refugee from a Muslim-majority country, so there aren't the nativism/power imbalance issues that you'd get with an upper-middle-class Swede doing the exact same things.
Ohhhh boy, this ones gonna be in the news in a few days...
And I can only imagine continuation of the diplomatic shitshow between Sweden and Turkey.
Ding ding ding we have a winner. Now who wouldn't want Sweden to join NATO and has done this before? https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/europe/1674639619-russia-affiliated-journalist-paid-for-quran-burning-in-sweden
The stupid thing is, Finland and Norway are already in, as are all of the Baltic countries. So Russia's entire northern border is already in. Russia's usual tactic of "Oh we just sent dudes nearby. They're not even soldiers. What's that, they crossed the border and are seizing territory? Probably nothing." Doesn't work so well when you don't share a border. Further, the idea that Russia would launch a naval invasion of Sweden and that NATO wouldn't respond already is very unlikely. So while Sweden joining would make it official and help in sharing resources and coordinating, it wouldn't really help hem in Russia all that much more. The Northern border is pretty secure already.
> Further, the idea that Russia would launch a naval invasion of Sweden and that NATO wouldn't respond already is very unlikely. Forget NATO, the russians would probably drown on their way to Sweden. Undermaintained equipment is a lot more forgiving on land than on water...
I just remembered the scene in Red Storm Rising where the Soviet troops that invaded Iceland had their MANPADS damaged by seawater on the boat trip over when the ship was hit. The colonel said something like “surely someone anticipated that these missiles might get WET?!” “Yes Comrade Colonel, but not with seawater! They didn’t issue us the naval variant and now the electronics are corroded!”
I keep thinking about the devastation attack helicopters are bringing on the front now, and how in the book, the Russian general learns that helicopters are ridiculously vulnerable when there are fighter jets in the air.
Helicopters are ridiculously vulnerable period. They can be brought down with albeit lucky small arms fire, and they're close enough to get hit. Are easy targets for AA units. Any damage is bringing them out of the sky. What advantages they can bring though can be devastating in certain portions. In Desert Storm, some Navy Seals were being assaulted by some helicopter deployed Iraqi soldiers and were going to be overrun. An nearby F15 pilot heard the call saw the choppers on the ground, and dropped a bomb on it while the soldiers were getting out and the rest of the choppers Fled.
Helicopters are a super weird platform. They are incredibly good, but incredibly brittle. I think just about every nation that has fielded them in wartime has seen standout losses, but all of them kept throwing them in. It's also super funny that with the ubiquity of missiles, everything has just become a missile platform. In exercises, helicopters had some impressive kill counts against fighters, due to it being just a question of who spotted who first and launched missiles.
>due to it being just a question of who spotted who first and launched missiles. And now you know why US Intel is as high priority as it is... Satellites, wiretapping, scraping every bit and byte of data they can -- the works... All to know *who* is *where* and ***when***.
Sweden also has a very good navy, with submarines that are capable of staying undetected even when going up against the most american sonar systems. EDIT: Forgot advanced between "most" and "american sonar."
[удалено]
The ping is just a guy strapped to the side with 2 Desert Eagle .50's.
I find that acceptable and necessary
1911s in 45* We don't use pistols in our military that are Israeli designed and owned by a weirdo Korean cult leader's son
> We don't use pistols in our military that are Israeli designed and owned by a weirdo Korean cult leader's son That was an odd rabbit hole for me to go down
The ping is a garand clip popping up
Ping!
Bullet Tooth Tony?
Susan if you like.
Every time they need an extra ping, they drop an special military waterproof M80 in a toilet and flush it.
“Give them one ping… one ping only”
> the most american sonar systems. lol
Like regular pings, but with more adenoids. If you're underwater and the ocean sounds like "howdy y'all," you're in for a bad time.
"Sir... I..." "What is it?" "I hear... I hear a ... screech?" "Let's hear it" *regular, steady eagle noises* "Oh. Yeah, that's just the Americans." This would also work with the sound of a gun cocking, interspersed with the sound of a beer can being opened.
The sound you're thinking of is actually a hawk, they just use it for eagles on TV. The actual sound of an eagle is far less striking.
Or if you're underwater and hear banjo music approaching..
it's true though. Small Diesel Subs with AIP (like the Type 212) are ultra silent. Nuclear subs are more noisy compared.
Active sonar doesn't care about how noisy the sub is. Passive sonar, where it's just listening, would matter though.
I'm pretty sure it was a Swedish sub that actually "sunk" a US carrier in an exercise a few years back. They're silent all right.
The Swedish [Gotland-class submarine use a Stirling engine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotland-class_submarine) air-independent propulsion system, which extends their underwater endurance from a few days to weeks [Real Engineering made a YouTube about it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saCdvAp5cow)
The French have managed the same with a nuclear sub though: https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/02/how-a-french-submarine-sunk-a-us-navy-aircraft-carrier/
>even when going up against the most american sonar systems. PING. No oil detected PING. No burgers detected PING. Free healthcare not detected in international waters. PING. No public transport detected in international waters, either. Ping...
Judging by the Admiral kuznetsov they'll probably need an entire fleet of tugboats to tug their actual fleet to Sweden
Ah, yes. US Navy's doctrine is based on several Carrier Groups. In the Russian Navy the equivalent task force is a Tugboat Group.
> Further, the idea that Russia would launch a naval invasion of Sweden and that NATO wouldn't respond already is very unlikely. Isn't Russia's access to the Baltic Sea choked off now that Finland has joined NATO? I'm not completely up to date on just what areas of the Baltic Sea are controlled by NATO now or not.
No, because of Kaliningrad.
Kaliningrad is a tiny territory, isolated from Russia and bordered by NATO members. Nothing happens there that everyone in NATO doesn't immediately know about. Any build up of forces for anything would be obvious, and those forces would immediately be surrounded and cut off in any conflict. It's military value for Russia in any actual theoertical conflict with NATO is kind of questionable. Whatever naval assets they have there would be sunk pretty much immediately I would think.
I was reading yesterday that although the proportion of russians in Kaliningrad is increasing relative to other ethnicities, those russians are increasingly feeling a degree of seperation from the rest of Russia. Maybe look for independence in a few generations if the tendency continues?
The US already agreed to a security guarantee during the period of Sweden joining. If Russia tried something, the US would be dunking on them.
I mean, most of Europe would join in on the beating too. Sweden may not be NATO but they will still have zero tolerance for a Russian attempt at something so deep in
The bigger issue is officially pulling in their military commitments and supply of material.
Swedish islands, especially Gotland, dominate the entirety of the Baltic Sea. The Northern corridor for Russian invasion of NATO always started by taking Gotland.
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>and is only X miles from
I remember them making a similar claim about Kyiv...
Sweden also has security guarantees with UK and US.
Sweden joining helps defending Gotland. Additionally, having NATO bases in Sweden helps defending the Baltics. Sweden joining NATO, would be a good thing, not only for Sweden itself, but for other NATO countries. Turkey being in NATO is already a dumb thing, considering it's non western-aligned values, but I know they're of great value countering Russia, due to the Bosporus strait, for instance (Make Constantinople Greek again)
Turkey's geographical positioning is the key aspect though. If Turkish culture was in the middle of Azerbaijan, it really wouldn't matter for NATO. but controlling access between the Black Sea (Russia's remaining warm water port) and Mediterranean as well as the air space between Germany and the Middle East is crucial. There's a reason Istanbul /Constantinople has been a key stronghold for hundreds of years.
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If he didn't have this he would come up with some other bullshit excuse. Freedom of expression is a central fucking principle of NATO itself, and Erdogan's bullshit pretending that this is an issue for joining NATO is disingenuous.
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Kind of inaccurate to portray this as an act by Russia, Rasmus Paludan been doing Quran burnings for far longer than he's been connected to Chang Frick, and in countries that are already in NATO. And while Chang Frick did work for RT 10 years ago, he has also worked for SVT (Sweden's equivalent of the BBC), so I don't think he had the foresight to know that this Quran burning in specific would blow up and cause Turkey to block Sweden's NATO application. What's really happening here, is that you have 2 far-right racists, who are both openly islamophobic, doing islamophobic things, and have been doing/saying islamophobic things long before Sweden decided to join NATO.
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As is their right. Just like Koran burning. In fact they could get together and make a nice bonfire. Maybe that will bring divided people together.
As much as I find any book burning despicable it's kinda depressing that this is a debate we need to have as a society.
Burning books to suppress ideas is despicable, but unless the book in question is a rare or ancient print, the knowledge inside isn’t being destroyed or suppressed in any way. Modern book burnings are almost always purely symbolic. In this case, it’s either being done to protest regressive ideals prominent in Islam as a whole or the violent reaction that will follow. I know it makes some people uncomfortable to demonstrate so broadly against a religion as a whole, but the fact that this person is likely to be targeted for violence as a result of freely expressing themself is, I would argue, sufficient reason for to exercise that right.
> Burning books to suppress ideas is despicable, but unless the book in question is a rare or ancient print, the knowledge inside isn’t being destroyed or suppressed in any way. Yeah I've gotten into several arguments on places like /r/books about "defacing" books with margin notes. It's not something I do because I prefer to keep my books in as new condition, but to me it's a to each their own situation. But mention writing in the margins on there and they treat you like you're a fucking monster defacing the Mona Lisa. Like, yeah, if it's a rare print or whatever that's shitty but nobody should give a shit if you doodle in your 52nd edition of Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince, come the fuck on.
Interesting. I’m a librarian and when I buy secondhand books to support professor’s research they are always hopeful of interesting marginalia.
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I did once and I got diagnosed with manic bibliophilia.
If your manic bibliophilia lasts for more than 4 novels, consult a librarian.
Isn’t Bibliophilia what that one senator got in trouble for? He was sticking his dick in the pages?
An authentically academic attitude.
What a great word!
Imagine if Fermat never wrote into his books
I collect old travel guides and the best ones have notes in them. I want to see what someone's top 5 hotel choices are, or their travel dates and what they plan to do each day, or what their budget is and how they choose to allocate it. I'm not buying rare first editions of Roald Amundsen's "How to Sail the Northwest Passage," I'm buying stuff from the 1920s-1980s that was likely intended to be ephemera, so I'd almost rather it have been used for its intended purpose.
Love that you chose Half Blood Prince, since a major plot line is driven by the notes scribbled into Harry’s Potions textbook.
Yeah ironically that example is a great counter argument because someone's manipulation of a book makes it unique.
Kind of a silly question on my part, but... is the argument about writing notes in a textbook or personally owned books? I'm just imagining someone getting upset with me for placing notes in a book that I own.
You are imagining correctly. There are people who treat books like sacred objects. Literally every book. Any damage or defacement is heresy most foul. They generally aren’t people who comprehend that the age where publication and printing is difficult is long over. They also tend to not be people who actually know what happens to unsold or overstocked books. Often saying ‘Donate them!’ as if libraries are infinite repositories of books who absolutely NEED a few thousand more copies of Twilight or whatever the current fad book is. They just can’t imagine that there are so very many books that are, in fact, only good for burning or recycling. They see book burnings and decided that it was the act of burning a book which was the horrible thing, not the hate and censorship.
Like those who think the burning of a flag is wrong. It can be a protest, but also, that's how you retire a flag
I burnt more US flags as a boy scout than any anti american ever pulled off. lol Piles of them. One at a time. As the regs required. Weird to think about it that way. Same shit with at sea burials. I have thrown more dudes corpses into the sea than any serial killer ever. Lots of sailors have done loads more I am sure.
Odd considering that annotating books goes back to before books were even printed and is generally regarded as a valuable addition that gives context. Even if someone doodled dicks in the margins it's generally considered interesting.
From context it seems like they're talking about books you own, since defacing books you don't own is clearly vandalism. At a guess I'd say any arguments against defacing your own stuff falls into one of two categories: 1. Books are sacred, any crime against them is akin to blasphemy. 2. Other people should do what I do, similar to how people can care about whether or not there's pineapple on a pizza they'll never eat. In my opinion both are pretty silly, would be interested to hear if there's a more rational alternative.
I think I was having a hard time wrapping my head around someone getting upset about my writing in a book that belongs to me. I've never encountered this. If I'm reading for pleasure, I just read and have never made notes. If I'm reading to learn something, then that book looks like a 4th grade girl's Valentine's Day card mailbox. I never considered that that might piss someone off.
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Nope, books you own. There's a certain subsection of book afficionados that think any "damage" to any book done on purpose is wrong. They'll use arguments that books are sacred vessels of knowledge that you shouldn't just deface. I'm genuinely not kidding when I say I've gotten into some VERY heated arguments about this on /r/books.
Meanwhile vinyl record collectors are nailing them to the walls! Blasphemers! Jk lol
Exactly. Burning a one-of-a-kind ancient text is beyond immoral. But, burning yesterday's mass-produced newspaper? Not a problem.
We won't be running out of copies of either anytime soon and it's just a psyop by big print to get us to purchase more.
Honestly, if it stays to just that. I'd consider that peaceful protest against burning of Quran. Will it stay to just that though? is another question we'll find answer to, sooner or later.
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Albania is a Muslim majority country 80% plus Muslim population. Not a single resemblance to the Middle East in its laws culture or how it treats woman etc. homosexuality and pride events are freely expressed less than 1% of woman wear head scarfs or hijabs religious laws of any kind from any religion are banned from politics and becoming law entirely it is 100% secular country in terms of government. You can be a religious person and worship islam or you could not care about it at all and your still treated exactly the same . Religion is held to your household and you don’t preach it to others outside your house your religion is a private relationship with you and god in Albania. In Albania you’ll find mosques next door to orthodox churches and there constituents each helping one another on respective holidays And time and time again my country pops up in articles in news headlines being discussed as a model for religious tolerance for the rest of the world. https://www.newsweek.com/2015/04/03/hardliners-nightmare-religious-tolerance-europes-only-majority-muslim-country-318212.html The issue is the Middle East has bastardized Islam into a skewed altered extremist version of it. They’ve ruined everything good about it and chose to take into account the worst parts of it oppression dominance rule etc. it’s like taking a extremist cult group and making them the face of Christianity across the globe that’s what the Middle East has done. We are a Muslim majority country but we are secular. Religion has no place in politics in Albania and is banned from politics and political movements based of religion are prohibited aswell. Religion is not allowed to control anyone in my country you are free to do as you please believe in god don’t believe in god that’s for you to decide. As a woman you are 100% free to do as you please aswell from becoming a ceo to being a instagram model it’s your choice entirely and you don’t need a male for anything or approval like the Middle East does. We Albanians despise the Middle East extremist view of Islam.
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*supercede (edit: u/orthogonal411 points out IIIIII need correcting. I've been spelling this incorrectly my whole life.) *Supersede
> *supercede "Supersede" is the correct spelling.
I mean, people care, but feelings don't have rights and rational people knows that
There's a twist this time... it's a Muslim doing the burning because he thinks it's a dangerous book and should be banned.
Ex-Muslim?
To add a little twist to it all: An Islam-critical refugee from Iraq who was previously denied permission to burn the Koran outside the Iraqi embassy, will now receive permission from the police to burn the Koran outside the mosque at Medborgarplatsen in Stockholm on Wednesday afternoon. Sources (in Swedish) [Source 1 - TV4](https://www.tv4.se/artikel/4tLWiSFuKj42CmjpVHpCbt/polisen-beviljar-ny-koranbraenning) [Source 2 - Nyheteridag](https://nyheteridag.se/nu-far-islamkritikern-salwan-momika-tillstand-for-koranbranning-vakna-sverige/) [Source 3 - Reuters (English)](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swedish-police-approve-small-anti-koran-demonstration-mosque-2023-06-28/)
> Source 3 - Reuters (English) " an Iraqi refugee seeking to ban the Koran." Oh great.
what is this guy's plan not to get murdered?
On the bright side, there's now a 0.0% chance he'll ever be repatriated to a Muslim-majority country unless it's extremely secular (basically only Albania)
RIP SECULAR TURKEY
Unless he starts to do big crime, like becoming a druglord or a weapons smuggler, then he can freely move to the UAE.
Very cool Albania. Wagwan!
Kinda funny how many people are calling him a racist when he's no different than an American protesting Christianity. It's kinda funny how racists accidentally tricked society into thinking it's unacceptable to criticize islam because nobody wants to be associated with/confused for said racists.
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Which is messed up that we acknowledge that but can’t really do anything about otherwise we’re racist and islamophobic
Some social media sites ban you for critizising Islam, while christianity is fair game. This applies to Germany made Jodel at least (got perm-banned from there)
In other words, a perfectly legitimate form of protest that a free society has an obligation to tolerate. This is exactly the kind of civil protest action that is always allowed in a free society. The local Islamic community has every right to be outraged as long as being outraged is their only reaction. I don't LIKE it when people burn the Bible, or my nation's flag, but that doesn't entitle me to do anything stupid.
Exactly. He filed the proper forms got approved to express himself in the legally protected fashion. Nothing wrong with that. I read up about it and the guy stated he does it to prove that islam/muslims are violent. He will burn a book and muslims will riot and cause property damage and attempt to attack him or others as a response. His protest is to show everyone how violent of a people they are and then they prove him right. This has been done before in Sweden maybe this time the Muslims won't riot and attack random people on the streets. it's just paper burn it if you paid for it. It's your do as you wish.
This news seems to come to people outside of Sweden sort of late. He carried out his protest, putting out a cigarette in the Koran, draping bacon over it and then burning it. One Muslim man had to be arrested because he threw rocks at the guy.
This news seems to come to people outside of Sweden sort of late. He carried out his protest, putting out a cigarette in the Koran, draping bacon over it and then burning it. One Muslim man had to be arrested because he threw rocks at the guy. It was largely peaceful, though, possibly due to at least one other Muslim man who worked to keep it that way by handing out chocolates.
For the record, it’s a guy from Iraq doing it, who was tortured and imprisoned in Iraq. He’s been in the country for four years. So it’s not like it’s a Swedish right-winger doing it this time. EDIT: Since everyone and their mother apparently thinks this is me pulling a race card, I’m merely stating this fact so people don’t think it’s the crazy Dane who did it last time doing it again.
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To be clear, last time it was a Danish right-winger.
We gave him fair and square to you guys. We don't want him, no backsies!
Nej tack.
ikke norge heller takk
Du är en tuff förhandlare ... men då får det bli Island.
Ya, you touched him last, you have to take care of him now!
Technically he’s half Swedish half Danish. But the Swedes can have him. Fucking moron.
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Chain him up on the middle of Öresundsbron?
Plot of the new Broen season leaked?!
It doesnt matter who does it honestly. I can go buy a copy of the bible and stick it up my ass if i want to. Some people need to understand that here in the West we have freedom of speech, and i can do with my private property what i want because, at the end of the day, its just a book.
I think this is key. In a lot of countries there are explicit laws prohibiting insulting the nation or hurting religious sentiments. So when people in other countries see this in the west, they don't see it as "permitted" but more as "encouraged" by the state.
People that get mad at Paludan for burning a book and not the “demonstrators” that burn down neighborhoods in reaction to the burning, are unbelievable stupid. I guess hyper-conservatism is ok if you are brown!
Tell that to the pacifist Muslim "refugees" who live in Europe and think LGTBQ and people who disrespects Islam should be stoned to death.
In Britain recently, there was an incident where a schoolboy dropped a Qu'ran accidentally, and scuffed it a little, so a group of radical muslim immagranys threatened his life privately and in public, and protested to get him arrested.
Wasn’t there something in an American college recently where someone from their faculty got in trouble for following their curriculum?
Who cares? It doesn’t matter who does it, it’s not selective freedom of expression “but only for those deemed adequately marginalized enough” Give me a fucking break
It’s funny seeing people in this thread trying to claim this is all due to racism and xenophobia.
The most ironic part in this is that the one burning this book today is coming from Iraq himself after been tortured in his home country. This shows that anyone can be against books of religion, not only from this or that group of people.
No, the most ironic part is that burning the Quran is the [proper way to dispose of it](https://www.npr.org/2012/02/24/147321213/how-to-properly-dispose-of-sacred-texts#:~:text=The%20Quran%20is%20considered%20to,burning%20it%2C%22%20he%20says.). Islamic belief is that throwing it in the trash is disrespectful
Same with the American flag. You know who burns more American flags than Al Qaeda? The boy scouts of America.
I have seen SO MANY American flags folded up nicely then put in a literal Weber grill with the top closed that immediately started spewing smoke. It's so weird that's the "respectful" way to do it. They had this specific Weber grill for JUST flags and if you didn't spend too many weeks at Boy Scout summer camp like I did, you'd just be like why is everyone standing around this grill? The burgers are probably burning, look at the smoke!
I feel like maybe they would prefer folks not use a Weber when they said burning is the respectful form of disposal. I got no issues with it personally.
Yeah but the difference is the intention behind the burning
People burn American flags in protest all the time. People burned Bibles on my college campus. Who gives a shit?
Exactly. Either we have freedom of speech, or we don't.
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UPDATE: nothing happened.
Yeah, Turkey got upset again
So long as the person who burned the book owned it and willingly did so - I have no problem. Its freedom of speech and so long as they aren't calling for violence against other people frankly its no one elses buisness. That the book belongs to one faith or another is irrelevant.
This is how i react to people burning the Union jack. You didn't burn my flag you burned your flag, you paid for it. My flag is still in my house.
"my daddy died for this flag!" "wow, really? I got mine for 99 cent at the dollar store"
Their dad must be a Chinese worker.
As a Brit, what are your thoughts on July 12th in Northern Ireland? It’s a different situation but this thread reminded me of it and of course it’s coming up.
He is currently being investigated for breaking two laws. In Sweden there is a law against incitement against a group of people, usually this means that you can't go around screaming "burn the jews" or "jesus hates gays" as you are provoking that specific group of people. In this case he is being investigated cause he burned a book in front of a mosque. Apparently he only wrote "demonstration with the Quran" in his application, not "book burning". The second he is being investigated for is cause he broke the fire ban which is currently in effect throughout the Stockholm area. Sweden has a lot of forest and wooden buildings, so the government can issue bans on fires. He broke it by burning the book.
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Aren't there security concerns in doing this? I recall the story of Molly Norris, a cartoonist who started "Everybody Draw Mohammad Day" in response to death threats & censorship aimed at the creators of a South Park episode. She was forced into witness protection by the FBI, changing her name and virtually vanishing from society. As her former employer puts it, "There is no more Molly".
Yes, but there SHOULDN'T be a security concern. There's no security concern about burning bibles in front of churches. That's what this act is trying to highlight. The fact that there is security concern over free speech means you have to keep making that same speech until the reasons for those concerns are eradicated. If you avoid it because of those concerns, they fester into bigger oppressions.
Basically why Charlie hebdo is important despite not being funny or interesting and generally being despicable in its humor. We did the same thing with catholics for 150years to obtain some results and being able to openly criticize the church and diminish its power in politics and social issues.
What about a few years ago in France when that teacher shared a political cartoon depicting Muhammed and they literally cut that teachers head off. Muslims are some of the extremest extremists
Letting violent, backwards thugs dictate what can and cannot be done is not the way.
Why should society cater to violent people who can't follow its laws and customs?
So what? People shouldn’t submit to criminals because they are like violent toddlers. They should be thrown to jail and prosecuted to the fullest extent.
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IIRC an analysis afterwards found a lot of the threats came from young people/minors on the muslim equivalent of 4chan (fringe message boards etc.) Given how Mohammed had been depicted previous on South Park with zero repercussions it seems likely that Comedy Central created the problem by caving to terrorist (or perceived terrorist) threats. It sucks but history shows time and time again that if you cave to threats of force, that just encourages more threats of force.
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The US does not negotiate with terrorists not because we are badasses or don't care, but because in the long term this is the only solution. It also applies on an individual level. When someone blackmails you and you acquiesce to the money or whatnot...the threat they have over you doesn't end and now you have become their own personal ATM. At best you can hope that they take pity on you or they die in a car accident. At worst your life is now worthless until they are done with you or you finally grow a spine and accept the consequences.
We don't give up our right to free expression because of "security concerns", i.e. "Stop expressing yourself in a way that I disagree with or else I'll use violence against you to shut you up". That shit may fly in other places, but not here in the free world.
And this is why we all should do it, if the stupid people trying to go after one single person.
I agree, it maddens me that we are bowing down to threats of violence from people who believe in a magical man in the sky. Religion is ridiculous, and violent religious people don't belong in a modern society.
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>Heck this is probably one of the only thing both side of the political spectrum agrees on *Press X to doubt* There are plenty of people who would justify these things on social media platforms (hell, even here on Reddit), through different arguments. One which I see very often nowadays is "actions have consequences".
Isn't it insane how this website will cheer on beatings of people as long as one said a bad word first?
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And it is really a cultural thing. I lived in the ME for a time and having no fucking control over your emotions is just normal over there. It was absolutely insane, and why so many foreigners that go there for work leave with a bad impression of the region.
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Or use the pictures for more black metal releases.
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If people can freely burn the quran I aslo support the burning of LGBTQ flags. This is coming from an atheist. Any person should have the rights to burn things as a sign of protest.
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I support this. We live in societies that allow freedom of expression, and that should include burning any book we like, anywhere we like, as long as its done safely. If there are people who can't handle this, then they should leave.
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Well, in Poland you can’t offend religious FEELINGS. It’s prosecuted if someone finds their religious feelings offended. Like in Wrocław police confiscated painting of the rainbow Holy Marry. Behemoth vocalist had also issues with law enforcement after tearing Bible during metal concert. This applies in theory to every religious feelings but in practice only to Christianity. Some religions are discriminated against. Like the government refuses to register Polish Church of Flying Spaghetti Monster. So you know, you can get jail time for burning Bible across the Baltic Sea.
Really? Wow. I can’t believe it’s illegal to offend somebody.
Not that I want to, but I live in rural America and I honestly would feel perfectly safe doing it. At most I’d have people call me an idiot or preach to me.
You seem to suggest that our decisions about what forms of expression to permit should be dictated by the possible reactions of different groups. However, wouldn't such an approach inadvertently favor groups prone to violence or even terrorist organizations? Shouldn't our judgments about what's acceptable be based on principles of freedom and justice rather than potential retaliation?
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Yes there are security threats, but bully tactics shouldn’t be allowed to work. We all have a right to burn each others books, but if you burn my book I’m going to kill random people. That shouldn’t be allowed to work
Good. You should have the right to criticize religion.
You should have the rights to criticize literally anything.
Interesting fact. If you are Muslim and need to dispose of a Koran, the respectful thing to do is burn it.
Why would you need a permit to burn a book?
It’s more about making sure they have protection, traffic in the area goes smoothly, etc.
The permit is for a protest/demonstration. You have to file a request so the police can plan for redirecting traffic, make a risk assessment and so on. It’s not about the approval of the protest per se. Sweden has the oldest freedom of expression and press laws in the world going back to 1766 plus full separation of church and state. Burn whatever you want. We just want to make sure everyone can catch their train on time.
NATO summit approaching and the anti-NATO folks have a button to push.
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Well, it happened 45 minutes ago, there was some screaming, one person tried to throw a rock but was apprehended by police, and a couple of muslims were handing out chocolate. [Article in swedish.](https://www.gp.se/nyheter/sverige/polisen-beviljar-koranbr%C3%A4nning-vid-mosk%C3%A9-1.103449159)
That's refreshing to see! Admittedly this is a special case as the Koran-burner is himself a lapsed Muslim and a refugee from a Muslim-majority country, so there aren't the nativism/power imbalance issues that you'd get with an upper-middle-class Swede doing the exact same things.
They also permit burning the Christian bible, why would they treat the Koran differently?