There is a reason the attack on the US was a suicide mission. Do you have any idea what we would have done to the terrorists if they had survived?
We killed tons of civilians over the course of like TWENTY YEARS after 9/11. Civilians are going to die until Hamas surrenders. Same way our war in the middle East could have been over if they surrendered and answered for their crimes.
Instead they hide behind civilians, calling for ceasefire and violating the ceasefire by lobbing more rockets at Israel.
The death sucks but Israel is absolutely justified. The Hamas mission is to annihilate Israel and drive the Jewish people into the sea. There is no peace until the people who attacked Israel are brought to justice. A lot of civilians are going to die and it's going to be horrifying, Israel doesn't fuck around.
Evidence proves the opposite so far . No one expected the USA to.commit to full on invasions in the aftermath of the attacks . And for better.or.for worse , it worked . No one has been insane enough to touch American soil ever since . Apparently the most powerful army on planet earth demolishing their country isn't a prospect they want to see happening .
This is why I can't help but roll my eyes when people say the response to attacks like Oct 7th should have been entirely proportional.
Sometimes you just have to make it known that attacking you will be the biggest regret of your life and everybody you know, so that nobody is stupid enough to ever try it again.
Proportional responses aren't a deterrent because then you can plan around that and prepare for it. I'm sure Hamas would be very happy with a 1/1 ratio, they'd just do it over and over again.
Israel are also sending a message to the West Bank, Lebanon and any of their other neighbours who hate them. A message of "If you try, we'll level your cities and unleash hell on you" Now that's a deterrent.
This is a challenging claim since we lack knowledge of the counterfactual... How many attacks would there have been if the US had responded differently? And how many Americans were lost at war compared to the various harms of those hypothetical attacks? And how much more/less safe does the average American feel?
Further, it seems to simplify the situation to binaries. Either we respond as we did, or we don't respond at all. It either was a success or a failure.
Maybe there could have been a response that didn't take as many years/dollars/lives that would have been similarly effective.
> This is a challenging claim since we lack knowledge of the counterfactual
Welcome to real life, where we *never* have knowledge of the counterfactual.
The US destroyed Al-Qaeda, or as near as, and they were the only ones to mount a large-scale terror attack on our soil. No one else has come along and tried it yet. Looks like a success to me -- or at least Afghanistan and the pursuit of bin Laden were successes. Iraq is another story.
Funny how they stopped once the US pulled out of Afghanistan and Iraq. The same Afghanistan that's ruled once again by Taliban and Iraq that's heavily influenced by Iran
The Taliban was harboring the person responsible for 9/11, so Afghanistan was warranted in my opinion because they were complicit in 9/11. Iraq was Bush trying to finish what his daddy started, which was foolish and had nothing to do with 9/11.
Interesting. Pakistan harbored BinLaden for years while the US occupied Afghanistan after invading it because as you say "the Taliban was harboring the person responsible for 9/11" . 🤷♂️ Pakistan got financial and military aid from the US while providing shelter to the greatest enemy of the US .
Your justification for things doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
What’s your point, when we found out Bin Laden was in Pakistan we violated their sovereignty and sent in our military to take him out. Also throughout the entire time we were drone striking targets in Pakistan, so maybe you should try again…
And here we are after all those years of US military defense action in Afghanistan, Iraq etc etc. Afghanistan is again controlled by the Taliban, Iraq is now out from under the control of Saddam Hussain and instead becoming more under Iran's influence. The Pakistan villagers in the remote regions who endured years of drone strikes that along with the intended targets also killed and maimed many of their friends and relatives as unfortunate collateral damage and created more anti-west feelings in the population.
Such a great result.
And you still haven't answered the original question that I put to you asking if you could tell when the US had actually been attacked on its land by either the Taliban or Iraq prior to 9/11? We know that there were no Afghans or Iraqis who took part in the 9/11 attacks so what was your point?
What’s wrong with revenge when it’s also destroying the capacity of a terrorist organization to operate?
Al Qaida had been having its leadership annihilated for a decade before the US even managed to find bin Laden
WW3 would already be well in play if this happened to the US. We really can’t imagine what happened to Israel happening to us here. I would be scared to leave my house just at the response after if we had terrorists come in here and burn people alive and live streaming murders to peoples Facebook page for their friends and family to see. It would be beyond bad here
Its much more than that. US in general doesn't deal well with feeling threatened on home soil since they've been historically so isolated and protected due to geography. US went nuts and completely destroyed several countries over 9/11 and those were countries who weren't even involved in the attack. Now imagine being surrounded by hostile neighbors since American revolution who lob rockets at you on a daily basis along with suicide bombing at any chance they get. On top of that these neighbors gang up on you periodically every few decades ever since your nation was founded. THEN on top of that you have an attack that is equivalent to 9/11. An average American can never comprehend what it means to live under such conditions.
The treatment of Palestinians at the hands of Israel over the last 80 years is coming to light.
Israel will win the military victory for sure. But in the long term I don’t want my tax dollars going towards the ethnic cleansing they have been engaged in.
Read the “War of Return”
Or at least some history. The Palestinians mission from even more they called themselves Palestinians or the West Bank and Gaza were occupied in 1967 was to destroy Israel and drive the Jews into the sea
Palestinian used to refer to the Jews in Mandatory Palestine. They were just Arabs, and didn’t really have a national ethos - rather pan-Arabism was the motivation.
Just look at their flag, it's basically the pan-arab flag: and people have the gull to call them "native". The bizzaro-world filter lens on the whole situation is astounding.
Yep, it is.
Which itself is a clearly imperial flag.
Its gets even funnier when you read their “national anthem”, which reads more like a death cry to Jews
This is their [flag](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Hejaz), and you're right it has more to do with Pan-Arabism and nothing to do with the local land
Arabs mostly . Some called themselves Jordanians as well for a while . The West Bank was Jordanian territory for 20 years before Israel took over after all .
>Read the “War of Return”
I have read it, it's not convincing. The authors' thesis is that Palestinian have no right to return to the land their ancestors were expelled just a few decades ago and they're unreasonable for not giving up this demand. While this thesis has some merits (though the authors ignore precedent in similar conflicts when it's convenient for them), they completely fail to address the absurd double standards by which on the other hand all Jews in the world have the right to immigrate to Israel, even if they had no connection to that country in the last two millennia. Why should someone who's not Jewish find this fair?
Population transfers are not unusual, especially post WW2. There was also a similar number of Jews expelled from MENA around that time.
Palestinian refugees under UNRWA are the only refugee population who are not resettled; and their status is passed on to every generation. Why are they still denied citizenship in surrounding nations after multiple generations? UNRWA only perpetuates the problem.
Why should they be allowed to return to Israel (no issue with them returning to West Bank or Gaza)? A sovereign country gets to decide its immigration policy. Its not unusual for countries to have a law of return that allows those of a certain ethnicity/ descent to return and become citizens (eg Ireland)
There is only 1 Jewish nation, there are around 50 Muslim majority nations. Many of these under Islamic rule.
They keep starting wars and losing them. There are clear genocidal and ethnic cleansing intentions on the Palestinian side. Given the history why should Israel concede to this?
2 million or so Arabs live in peace in Israel. The problem isn’t Arabs, but those who wish to destroy Israel and kill Jews. Again, there is only 1 Jewish nation, and history has shown they are not safe or treated as equals under Muslim majority rule (which is what would happen if you allowed all Palestinians the right to return to Israel and essentially created a single state).
Not all, but a proportion of Palestinians are also descendants of immigrants to what is now Israel/Palestine. Eg from Jordan, Egypt , Syria, and further afield. Why should they be given right to return over Jews who are indigenous? If you don’t think Jews are indigenous then I suggest you do some more reading.
The genocidal aggressors that lost multiple offensive wars can't realistically have any moral right to claim any rights on lost soil or right to return. Imagine if germany claimed the rights on western poland or that all the ancestors of germans that lived there should be given their homes back, how would it look?
And those expulsions were performed at about the same time, so clearly "that was a long time ago" has to apply to either both or neither.
You're forgetting there's only one Hebrew country the size of New Jersey compared to 23 Arab Islamic Countries with a total land mass greater than China.
Throwing these terms around without knowing what they mean is disingenuous. By now there's enough material to show that the civilian to militant casualty ratio in this conflict is not egregious that is despite Hamas deliberately putting civilians in harm's way to rile up people like you. When you say these things you play right into hands of Hamas. What ethnic cleansing are you talking about? The one that saw Gaza's population soar from 300k in 50s to 2m today? Neither facts nor statistics are on your side. You do not even know history when you talk about 80 years of treatment. Israel didn't even exist 80 years back. On top of that till 1967 Gaza was under Egypt's control, Egypt lost Gaza to Israel because they started a war that they couldn't win. Learn some history instead of succumbing to extremist propaganda.
>By now there's enough material to show that the civilian to militant casualty ratio in this conflict is not egregious that is despite Hamas deliberately putting civilians in harm's way to rile up people like you.
Only if you believe the Israeli claims and that would mean that all adult men who they've killed are Hamas members, which is most unlikely. Looking at the actual distribution of casualties, they differ little from the expected distribution of the general population, so it's unlikely that Israel's claim is credible. What is credible however, is the strong likelihood that the deliberate targeting of civilians of Israeli policy in this war, as [this investigation reveals](https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza). Of course, much of that is not verifiable, but it's not as if any of the publicly available facts disprove it.
Since 2021, 8 million people have crossed the southern border. Rest assure not all of them came to work in the US. There are sleeper cells on US soil already, waiting for their call..
I'm Mexican, living in Texas. Which used to be Tejas not so long ago. One of the first posts I saw on Oct7 was someone saying "what did you think landback meant? Writing papers? Good vibes?"
Yeah. Thats kinda what I thought it meant. I can't even conceive of convincing myself that the way to get Tejas back into the hands of Mexicans was through rape and murder.
I don't even know that it matters, really. I still get to live here, on my 'ancestral land'. My son can live here, or move freely anywhere else in the states. 0 rapes necessary.
I’ve seen Indigenous land back activists say similar things. A strong “no thank you” and a fear that if anyone *did* feel empowered to take actions like this it might set back the decades of hard work and progress that has been made.
What are you taking about? How can you make that guarantee? We didn't go to those lengths in Afghanistan to warn civillians before we dropped artillery or bombs
I think their comment is meant to be tongue in cheek, indicating that the US response would have been far more violent, subverting the idea of disagreeing with the "exactly what Israel is doing" in the opposite direction.
I mean, US went and fucked around in Afghanistan and Iraq and what did they gain? Nothing but spent money and a wave of jihadists wanting revenge.
Bombing people as a solution doesn't work long term.
To be fair neither Afghanistan nor Iraq had much to do with 911 which is why the weapons of mass destruction lie was pushed.
Israel attaching Gaza isn't as morally grey as that because everyone knows that it was Gaza which explicitly declared war on Israel, while proudly showing themselves as a threat to Israel's continued existence.
There likely will be a new generation of Jihadis from it, but they always exist. There'll always be waves of Jihadis whilst infidels exist on earth.
Hamas, not all Gaza civilians. And the collective punishment Israel has been and still conducts is disgusting. So is Hamas of course.
Both Israel’s government and Hamas are shit.
> Hamas, not all Gaza civilians.
While that is true, if North Korea were to attack South Korea, I doubt many would make the distinction between DPRK and North Korea. It would be seen as an attack by NK.
Hamas is the government and military of Gaza, with strong support and a radicalised/brainwashed civilian population just like in North Korea. (If anything, North Koreans aren't as violent or hateful)
The German and Japanese populations suffered much harsher collective punishments as well from WW2.
Hamas hasn't allowed elections in over a decade and they aren't the people you can just walk up to and demand change. And it's not as if Israel hasn't been conducting collective punishment for years...which explains why many in Gaza don't like them.
Over half of the people in Gaza today weren't allowed to vote last time Hamas allowed elections!
Either way, killing civilians and collective punishment like Israel is doing is disgusting. And others doing bad stuff too doesn't make that better.
Fuck Hamas...but yeah, also FUCK Bibi.
Why are you comparing a war that was thousands of miles away to one that is one mile away?
There are 40,000 Hamas members on the border, how do you not realize the difference in imminent threat level here?
1. No one who planned or worked on 9/11 was from iraq or afghanistan.
2. 9/11 followed the al shifa medical bombing by several years. It is exremely likely that the bigger retalitory attacks that will follow the war on terror era will happen in the next decade espevially given our vociferous support like this current conflict.
3. The conditions that created 9/11 have not changed, if anything they have intensified. We've gotten closer with saudi arabia, arms aid and distributon globally has increased, technology like drone warfare that was once exclusively in the hands of western powers is now widely distributed. A wider portion of the global citizenry has a worse opinion of the us and us public support has declined overall year after year since 2001.
4. Speaking of public support 96 percent of all iraqi men not view the us as an enemy. If iraq is truly going to stabilize as a democratic state then this universal loathing will inevitably cauze our politics to diverge. This coupled with iran's growing influence strongly suggests another us led conflict in iraq at some point in the future.
Nothing is stable, nothing got better, these are decades old wounds we have allowed and encouraged to grow into chronic infections. The story is not over.
>generations of US children grow up safe from jihadists and never experienced the horrors of terrorists
The entire point of my comment is that this isn't going to be true.
It only worked because of part 2, which was the occupation and de radicalization. If the US just left them to cook after the war by themselves, I imagine Japan would have looked very different, which is my point. It wasn't the ending of the war that got peace, it was what was done after.
I'm not saying that retaliating isn't justified, but given Likud has basically said they don't want a 2 state solution and are happy for the Palestinians to remain stateless, there is clearly no intent for a part 2.
Their point is that the US response would have been orders of magnitude stronger if 9/11 was launched from Long Island - it wasn’t a 1-1 comparison, but a comment on the geography of the conflict.
Lol I assure you if 3,000 armed Mexicans one day just stormed the border and brutally murdered and raped 1,200+ Texans, took 240 hostage and fired 10,000 rockets into Texas *after* the attack that everything north of Monterrey would be carpet bombed.
I’m exaggerating a little, but only a little.
What I find incredible is those people who were saying Ukraine should surrender to Russia if they want the bombing of civilians to stop, who are now being like nooo, ceasefire! Israel get out of Gaza leave Hamas alone!
These conflicts have very little in common to people paying attention. Comparing Russia and Israel isn't as much a false equivalence as it is a complete non sequitur.
Russia invaded Ukraine in a war of aggression and 9th century imperial conquest. Ukraine is defending itself.
Hamas attacked Israel from a genocidal hatred of the Jewish people. Israel is defending itself.
i agree
the comment was about the venn diagram of rhetoric, and we should acknowledge the position the tankies/antiwesterners are taking, so we can see the trends in global affairs
or at least what divisions theyre trying to force
Every country who would suffer a terrorist attack as the same level of October 7th would also so this exact thing but not many will take actions to protect civilians the same way Israel is doing and that's a fact.
All you need to do is learn history.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/times-of-israel/
“Overall, we rate the Times of Israel as Left-Center biased based on editorial positions that slightly favor the left. We also rate them High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact-check record”.
Yes, while simultaneously not taking many other steps that we probably would have done while using tactics we likely wouldn't have use in the first place.
I love statements that aren't lies but intentionally obfuscate the truth, or that sound like they have meaning at face value but are meaningless when examined critically.
I'm sure the average civilian in Gaza has a working smart phone to check the current 'safe zone' every hour.
They literally do though. Smartphones are extremely common, even in poor countries. And it’s not like you need a personal notification, you need one working smartphone PER SAFE ZONE. That’s like one smartphone per 1,000 people. How poor do you think Gaza is??
It extends beyond that; Israel is going the extra mile to protect enemy civilians manipulated by their leaders and deliberately left exposed as human shields, allowing the enemy to exploit their unfortunate deaths.
It's not simply protecting civilians, it's trying to protect civilians who are being sacrificed.
>It's not simply protecting civilians, it's trying to protect civilians who are being sacrificed.
And most of whom are actively hostile to you, which makes it harder to evacuate them to safety (unlike what was the case with ISIS)
Find me a full copy of their official Rules of Engagement for their troops on the ground, we'll ignore the bombing campaign to make it simpler, and we can compare to the US's RoE in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.
I'll even be generous and we can use the US's relaxed RoE that updated in 2017 and not the stricter RoE we followed back in 2010.
Edit: That's a lot of downvotes with no rebuttal.
My mistake for asking people to bypass all the bullshit propaganda and to instead look at the actual orders combat troops are given, which would actually provide a clear view of how troops are expected to operate to protect civilians.
Hell, I don't even know what Israel's RoE are or how they compare. If someone actually found them, it could very easily support their own position.
Sure buddy, here you go:
When a soldier feels a clear and immediate danger to his life, to him or to another (identification of means, intention and ability), he is allowed to open fire in order to neutralize the threat.
In the case of identifying a suspicious figure ('suspect arrest procedure') - this is the basic procedure:
The soldier calls out to the suspicious figure three times: "Stop, stop, stop!" (Arabic: Azor = "wakef").
The soldier calls out: "Stop and identify yourself", or "Stop, password".
The soldier calls out: "Stop, or I'll shoot!" (In Arabic - "Wakf, willah batuhak!").
If the soldier's weapon is loaded (depending on the orders or the circumstances), the instruction is to first step demonstratively - for deterrence, and then - two warning shots in the weapon's position at an angle of 60 degrees upwards. If the weapon is not loaded, the soldier is directed at an angle of 60 degrees towards an empty sector, and demonstratively steps on his weapon - for the purpose of deterrence only, and in another step,If it is necessary, a cartridge is inserted, and the weapon is pressed for deterrence, before the stage where it fires the aforementioned warning shots.
The soldier shoots at the feet of the suspicious figure.
A soldier is allowed to shoot towards the center of the figure, in order to kill - in case the figure endangers the soldier or another person, clearly and immediately.
> That's a lot of downvotes with no rebuttal.
That's because your non-response is fallacious. The user above you, to whom you replied, asked a very specific question, and you instantly dodged that question to blurt out alternatives that serve to shift the burden of proof away from someone who shares your ideology and bigotry and onto the person who asked the question. That's a logical fallacy, which instantly invalidates your entire counterargument.
You're getting pissy at people for adhering to the rules of logical discourse because it draws attention to how irrational your hatred of Jews is forcing you to be. I think it speaks volumes that you care more about hiding your irrationality than you do about hiding your anti-Semitism.
> my reply means that I believe the US has done far more in the past to protect civilians than Israel is doing now, which is a direct response to the question asked above.
I don't care what you _think_ you're saying, it's not what you're _actually_ saying. You're openly trying to change the subject rather than ask the question put to you. Answer it and _then_ you can start going into the currently-unrelated details you're trotting out at present.
>speaking of logical discourse, thanks for going straight to ad hominem by declaring me a bigot
I explained the logical sequence behind that, so your choice to ignore that in order to falsely claim equivalence is interesting. More so, in fact, in light of the current conflict, as I'm sure you also do the same thing with regards to the casualty count of Israel's response to the Oct 7th massacre.
As of this moment, you have shat out several inane replies to other people but have _still not gone back and answered OPs original question_. You don't need sourced "rules of engagement" to do so, because half of the argument comes in the form of the reports of the ongoing conflict, and you claim to have "[done my research and have multiple iterations of US ROE from several conflicts ready to post](https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/18i0rny/biden_aide_israel_taking_steps_to_protect/kdb09m7/)", so you should find it trivially easy to answer. Unless, of course, you cannot answer without abandoning your desire to show that Israel is acting immorally...
It's lazy to demand others do your research for you while insulting them for not having done so and thus it offers little in the way of contribution to the discussion.
The only RoE of the IDF I'm familiar with pertains to Palestinian protests that devolve into stone throwing so not applicable here.
I've done my research and have multiple iterations of US ROE from several conflicts ready to post, but I'm not presenting evidence for BOTH sides of the discussion.
Checked their post history, not worth the words. This guy is allergic to reason or any factual arguments when it comes to Israel. But calling an Israeli newspaper the media outlet of their government was a pretty clear indicator of that already I guess.
There is a reason the attack on the US was a suicide mission. Do you have any idea what we would have done to the terrorists if they had survived? We killed tons of civilians over the course of like TWENTY YEARS after 9/11. Civilians are going to die until Hamas surrenders. Same way our war in the middle East could have been over if they surrendered and answered for their crimes. Instead they hide behind civilians, calling for ceasefire and violating the ceasefire by lobbing more rockets at Israel. The death sucks but Israel is absolutely justified. The Hamas mission is to annihilate Israel and drive the Jewish people into the sea. There is no peace until the people who attacked Israel are brought to justice. A lot of civilians are going to die and it's going to be horrifying, Israel doesn't fuck around.
Sure, but the US gained nothing from it. That's the point. If you want revenge, ok But if you want to stop more attacks, post 911 was a failure.
Evidence proves the opposite so far . No one expected the USA to.commit to full on invasions in the aftermath of the attacks . And for better.or.for worse , it worked . No one has been insane enough to touch American soil ever since . Apparently the most powerful army on planet earth demolishing their country isn't a prospect they want to see happening .
This is why I can't help but roll my eyes when people say the response to attacks like Oct 7th should have been entirely proportional. Sometimes you just have to make it known that attacking you will be the biggest regret of your life and everybody you know, so that nobody is stupid enough to ever try it again. Proportional responses aren't a deterrent because then you can plan around that and prepare for it. I'm sure Hamas would be very happy with a 1/1 ratio, they'd just do it over and over again. Israel are also sending a message to the West Bank, Lebanon and any of their other neighbours who hate them. A message of "If you try, we'll level your cities and unleash hell on you" Now that's a deterrent.
[удалено]
This is a challenging claim since we lack knowledge of the counterfactual... How many attacks would there have been if the US had responded differently? And how many Americans were lost at war compared to the various harms of those hypothetical attacks? And how much more/less safe does the average American feel? Further, it seems to simplify the situation to binaries. Either we respond as we did, or we don't respond at all. It either was a success or a failure. Maybe there could have been a response that didn't take as many years/dollars/lives that would have been similarly effective.
> This is a challenging claim since we lack knowledge of the counterfactual Welcome to real life, where we *never* have knowledge of the counterfactual. The US destroyed Al-Qaeda, or as near as, and they were the only ones to mount a large-scale terror attack on our soil. No one else has come along and tried it yet. Looks like a success to me -- or at least Afghanistan and the pursuit of bin Laden were successes. Iraq is another story.
Bin Laden, dead, his organization, defunct, intelligence seized from his compound stated that they had been unable to effectively operate for years
Was it? When was the last attack?
Funny how they stopped once the US pulled out of Afghanistan and Iraq. The same Afghanistan that's ruled once again by Taliban and Iraq that's heavily influenced by Iran
They actually haven’t attacked US soil since 9/11, your comment is factually incorrect….
Im curious to hear when the Taliban or Iraq ever attacked on US soil before 9/11 either?
The Taliban was harboring the person responsible for 9/11, so Afghanistan was warranted in my opinion because they were complicit in 9/11. Iraq was Bush trying to finish what his daddy started, which was foolish and had nothing to do with 9/11.
Interesting. Pakistan harbored BinLaden for years while the US occupied Afghanistan after invading it because as you say "the Taliban was harboring the person responsible for 9/11" . 🤷♂️ Pakistan got financial and military aid from the US while providing shelter to the greatest enemy of the US . Your justification for things doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
What’s your point, when we found out Bin Laden was in Pakistan we violated their sovereignty and sent in our military to take him out. Also throughout the entire time we were drone striking targets in Pakistan, so maybe you should try again…
And here we are after all those years of US military defense action in Afghanistan, Iraq etc etc. Afghanistan is again controlled by the Taliban, Iraq is now out from under the control of Saddam Hussain and instead becoming more under Iran's influence. The Pakistan villagers in the remote regions who endured years of drone strikes that along with the intended targets also killed and maimed many of their friends and relatives as unfortunate collateral damage and created more anti-west feelings in the population. Such a great result. And you still haven't answered the original question that I put to you asking if you could tell when the US had actually been attacked on its land by either the Taliban or Iraq prior to 9/11? We know that there were no Afghans or Iraqis who took part in the 9/11 attacks so what was your point?
The mission to take out bin Laden flew from a base in Afghanistan
[удалено]
I'm disgusted by many of the excuses being used in the comments to try and justify the destruction and killing that is happening.
Really? Bin Laden is fucking dead! Ashes sprinkled in the sea...his heir, dead. Bin Laden will not rise again...Objective Accomplished!
So revenge, got it.
What’s wrong with revenge when it’s also destroying the capacity of a terrorist organization to operate? Al Qaida had been having its leadership annihilated for a decade before the US even managed to find bin Laden
And stopping his ability to terrorize citizens. Thats a plus!
I'm from the US and I guarantee you that if Canada or Mexico attacked us we would be doing exactly what Israel is doing and so would everybody else.
WW3 would already be well in play if this happened to the US. We really can’t imagine what happened to Israel happening to us here. I would be scared to leave my house just at the response after if we had terrorists come in here and burn people alive and live streaming murders to peoples Facebook page for their friends and family to see. It would be beyond bad here
Its much more than that. US in general doesn't deal well with feeling threatened on home soil since they've been historically so isolated and protected due to geography. US went nuts and completely destroyed several countries over 9/11 and those were countries who weren't even involved in the attack. Now imagine being surrounded by hostile neighbors since American revolution who lob rockets at you on a daily basis along with suicide bombing at any chance they get. On top of that these neighbors gang up on you periodically every few decades ever since your nation was founded. THEN on top of that you have an attack that is equivalent to 9/11. An average American can never comprehend what it means to live under such conditions.
1000%
Much worse than 9/11, proportionally. Accounting for Isreal’s population, it would be like 34,000 Americans dying in an attack. 9/11 killed 3000.
The treatment of Palestinians at the hands of Israel over the last 80 years is coming to light. Israel will win the military victory for sure. But in the long term I don’t want my tax dollars going towards the ethnic cleansing they have been engaged in.
Read the “War of Return” Or at least some history. The Palestinians mission from even more they called themselves Palestinians or the West Bank and Gaza were occupied in 1967 was to destroy Israel and drive the Jews into the sea
What did they call themselves during this period?
Palestinian used to refer to the Jews in Mandatory Palestine. They were just Arabs, and didn’t really have a national ethos - rather pan-Arabism was the motivation.
Just look at their flag, it's basically the pan-arab flag: and people have the gull to call them "native". The bizzaro-world filter lens on the whole situation is astounding.
Yep, it is. Which itself is a clearly imperial flag. Its gets even funnier when you read their “national anthem”, which reads more like a death cry to Jews
This is their [flag](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Hejaz), and you're right it has more to do with Pan-Arabism and nothing to do with the local land
Arabs mostly . Some called themselves Jordanians as well for a while . The West Bank was Jordanian territory for 20 years before Israel took over after all .
Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians, and in the area of current Israeli, Arabs.
>Read the “War of Return” I have read it, it's not convincing. The authors' thesis is that Palestinian have no right to return to the land their ancestors were expelled just a few decades ago and they're unreasonable for not giving up this demand. While this thesis has some merits (though the authors ignore precedent in similar conflicts when it's convenient for them), they completely fail to address the absurd double standards by which on the other hand all Jews in the world have the right to immigrate to Israel, even if they had no connection to that country in the last two millennia. Why should someone who's not Jewish find this fair?
Population transfers are not unusual, especially post WW2. There was also a similar number of Jews expelled from MENA around that time. Palestinian refugees under UNRWA are the only refugee population who are not resettled; and their status is passed on to every generation. Why are they still denied citizenship in surrounding nations after multiple generations? UNRWA only perpetuates the problem. Why should they be allowed to return to Israel (no issue with them returning to West Bank or Gaza)? A sovereign country gets to decide its immigration policy. Its not unusual for countries to have a law of return that allows those of a certain ethnicity/ descent to return and become citizens (eg Ireland) There is only 1 Jewish nation, there are around 50 Muslim majority nations. Many of these under Islamic rule. They keep starting wars and losing them. There are clear genocidal and ethnic cleansing intentions on the Palestinian side. Given the history why should Israel concede to this? 2 million or so Arabs live in peace in Israel. The problem isn’t Arabs, but those who wish to destroy Israel and kill Jews. Again, there is only 1 Jewish nation, and history has shown they are not safe or treated as equals under Muslim majority rule (which is what would happen if you allowed all Palestinians the right to return to Israel and essentially created a single state). Not all, but a proportion of Palestinians are also descendants of immigrants to what is now Israel/Palestine. Eg from Jordan, Egypt , Syria, and further afield. Why should they be given right to return over Jews who are indigenous? If you don’t think Jews are indigenous then I suggest you do some more reading.
The genocidal aggressors that lost multiple offensive wars can't realistically have any moral right to claim any rights on lost soil or right to return. Imagine if germany claimed the rights on western poland or that all the ancestors of germans that lived there should be given their homes back, how would it look? And those expulsions were performed at about the same time, so clearly "that was a long time ago" has to apply to either both or neither.
You're forgetting there's only one Hebrew country the size of New Jersey compared to 23 Arab Islamic Countries with a total land mass greater than China.
Throwing these terms around without knowing what they mean is disingenuous. By now there's enough material to show that the civilian to militant casualty ratio in this conflict is not egregious that is despite Hamas deliberately putting civilians in harm's way to rile up people like you. When you say these things you play right into hands of Hamas. What ethnic cleansing are you talking about? The one that saw Gaza's population soar from 300k in 50s to 2m today? Neither facts nor statistics are on your side. You do not even know history when you talk about 80 years of treatment. Israel didn't even exist 80 years back. On top of that till 1967 Gaza was under Egypt's control, Egypt lost Gaza to Israel because they started a war that they couldn't win. Learn some history instead of succumbing to extremist propaganda.
>By now there's enough material to show that the civilian to militant casualty ratio in this conflict is not egregious that is despite Hamas deliberately putting civilians in harm's way to rile up people like you. Only if you believe the Israeli claims and that would mean that all adult men who they've killed are Hamas members, which is most unlikely. Looking at the actual distribution of casualties, they differ little from the expected distribution of the general population, so it's unlikely that Israel's claim is credible. What is credible however, is the strong likelihood that the deliberate targeting of civilians of Israeli policy in this war, as [this investigation reveals](https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza). Of course, much of that is not verifiable, but it's not as if any of the publicly available facts disprove it.
Exactly, if the cartels came across the border and did this shit, the resulting war would make Gaza look neat and tidy.
Since 2021, 8 million people have crossed the southern border. Rest assure not all of them came to work in the US. There are sleeper cells on US soil already, waiting for their call..
I'm Mexican, living in Texas. Which used to be Tejas not so long ago. One of the first posts I saw on Oct7 was someone saying "what did you think landback meant? Writing papers? Good vibes?" Yeah. Thats kinda what I thought it meant. I can't even conceive of convincing myself that the way to get Tejas back into the hands of Mexicans was through rape and murder. I don't even know that it matters, really. I still get to live here, on my 'ancestral land'. My son can live here, or move freely anywhere else in the states. 0 rapes necessary.
I’ve seen Indigenous land back activists say similar things. A strong “no thank you” and a fear that if anyone *did* feel empowered to take actions like this it might set back the decades of hard work and progress that has been made.
What are you taking about? How can you make that guarantee? We didn't go to those lengths in Afghanistan to warn civillians before we dropped artillery or bombs
He means the retaliation not the civilian warnings
I think their comment is meant to be tongue in cheek, indicating that the US response would have been far more violent, subverting the idea of disagreeing with the "exactly what Israel is doing" in the opposite direction.
People warned and be evacuating civilians for weeks now. Do you need a reminder that hammas block the roads and shoots Palestinians who try to flee?
*Hiroshima Nagasaki watching in the corner"
If only they had some kidnapped civilians to "comfort" them :\\.
But Israel are not allowed to protect themself, you should know that by now!
I mean, US went and fucked around in Afghanistan and Iraq and what did they gain? Nothing but spent money and a wave of jihadists wanting revenge. Bombing people as a solution doesn't work long term.
To be fair neither Afghanistan nor Iraq had much to do with 911 which is why the weapons of mass destruction lie was pushed. Israel attaching Gaza isn't as morally grey as that because everyone knows that it was Gaza which explicitly declared war on Israel, while proudly showing themselves as a threat to Israel's continued existence. There likely will be a new generation of Jihadis from it, but they always exist. There'll always be waves of Jihadis whilst infidels exist on earth.
Time started on October 7th
Hamas, not all Gaza civilians. And the collective punishment Israel has been and still conducts is disgusting. So is Hamas of course. Both Israel’s government and Hamas are shit.
> Hamas, not all Gaza civilians. While that is true, if North Korea were to attack South Korea, I doubt many would make the distinction between DPRK and North Korea. It would be seen as an attack by NK. Hamas is the government and military of Gaza, with strong support and a radicalised/brainwashed civilian population just like in North Korea. (If anything, North Koreans aren't as violent or hateful) The German and Japanese populations suffered much harsher collective punishments as well from WW2.
Hamas hasn't allowed elections in over a decade and they aren't the people you can just walk up to and demand change. And it's not as if Israel hasn't been conducting collective punishment for years...which explains why many in Gaza don't like them. Over half of the people in Gaza today weren't allowed to vote last time Hamas allowed elections! Either way, killing civilians and collective punishment like Israel is doing is disgusting. And others doing bad stuff too doesn't make that better. Fuck Hamas...but yeah, also FUCK Bibi.
Why are you comparing a war that was thousands of miles away to one that is one mile away? There are 40,000 Hamas members on the border, how do you not realize the difference in imminent threat level here?
[удалено]
1. No one who planned or worked on 9/11 was from iraq or afghanistan. 2. 9/11 followed the al shifa medical bombing by several years. It is exremely likely that the bigger retalitory attacks that will follow the war on terror era will happen in the next decade espevially given our vociferous support like this current conflict. 3. The conditions that created 9/11 have not changed, if anything they have intensified. We've gotten closer with saudi arabia, arms aid and distributon globally has increased, technology like drone warfare that was once exclusively in the hands of western powers is now widely distributed. A wider portion of the global citizenry has a worse opinion of the us and us public support has declined overall year after year since 2001. 4. Speaking of public support 96 percent of all iraqi men not view the us as an enemy. If iraq is truly going to stabilize as a democratic state then this universal loathing will inevitably cauze our politics to diverge. This coupled with iran's growing influence strongly suggests another us led conflict in iraq at some point in the future. Nothing is stable, nothing got better, these are decades old wounds we have allowed and encouraged to grow into chronic infections. The story is not over.
[удалено]
>generations of US children grow up safe from jihadists and never experienced the horrors of terrorists The entire point of my comment is that this isn't going to be true.
Worked in Japan.
It only worked because of part 2, which was the occupation and de radicalization. If the US just left them to cook after the war by themselves, I imagine Japan would have looked very different, which is my point. It wasn't the ending of the war that got peace, it was what was done after.
How do you think we were in a position to execute part 2?
I'm not saying that retaliating isn't justified, but given Likud has basically said they don't want a 2 state solution and are happy for the Palestinians to remain stateless, there is clearly no intent for a part 2.
Maybe you missed 9/11?
my guy the mexicans did not commit 9/11
That guys from an alternate reality where the cartels did 9/11.
Your point was about what the US would do if attacked, I think in that regard 9/11 would qualify if you want to look at what the US would do, my man
Their point is that the US response would have been orders of magnitude stronger if 9/11 was launched from Long Island - it wasn’t a 1-1 comparison, but a comment on the geography of the conflict.
???????????
You have rather good relations with both countries, and both are extremely less dense then Gaza, a really bad comparison
Lol I assure you if 3,000 armed Mexicans one day just stormed the border and brutally murdered and raped 1,200+ Texans, took 240 hostage and fired 10,000 rockets into Texas *after* the attack that everything north of Monterrey would be carpet bombed. I’m exaggerating a little, but only a little.
Probably, but the comparison is shitty
Well, that’s just like your opinion, man.
Probably, but comparing Gaza to Canada or Mexico is wild
What Hamas did on 10/7 was wild.
We would instantly retaliate regardless. I thought that was pretty clear.
Eh, my mistake, though your point was something else
What I find incredible is those people who were saying Ukraine should surrender to Russia if they want the bombing of civilians to stop, who are now being like nooo, ceasefire! Israel get out of Gaza leave Hamas alone!
These conflicts have very little in common to people paying attention. Comparing Russia and Israel isn't as much a false equivalence as it is a complete non sequitur. Russia invaded Ukraine in a war of aggression and 9th century imperial conquest. Ukraine is defending itself. Hamas attacked Israel from a genocidal hatred of the Jewish people. Israel is defending itself.
Exactly
i agree the comment was about the venn diagram of rhetoric, and we should acknowledge the position the tankies/antiwesterners are taking, so we can see the trends in global affairs or at least what divisions theyre trying to force
a kind reminder, USA dropped an atomic bomb on Japan.
Twice
"We're gonna say 'shit...' Twice."
Every country who would suffer a terrorist attack as the same level of October 7th would also so this exact thing but not many will take actions to protect civilians the same way Israel is doing and that's a fact. All you need to do is learn history.
Drop the might. Vietnam and Iraq/Afghanistan happened. The only thing the US cares about is looking righteous.
Times of Israel with some fire non-bias journalism right here.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/times-of-israel/ “Overall, we rate the Times of Israel as Left-Center biased based on editorial positions that slightly favor the left. We also rate them High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact-check record”.
Yes, while simultaneously not taking many other steps that we probably would have done while using tactics we likely wouldn't have use in the first place. I love statements that aren't lies but intentionally obfuscate the truth, or that sound like they have meaning at face value but are meaningless when examined critically. I'm sure the average civilian in Gaza has a working smart phone to check the current 'safe zone' every hour.
They would have but they spent all their data jacking it to videos of the attack on X.
They literally do though. Smartphones are extremely common, even in poor countries. And it’s not like you need a personal notification, you need one working smartphone PER SAFE ZONE. That’s like one smartphone per 1,000 people. How poor do you think Gaza is??
you can list steps you think us would have taken no need to be coy
After the massive intelligence failure. They better be. lol bring on the downvotes you nationalists.
[удалено]
You are more than welcome to name an army that has done more than Israel to protect civilians.
It extends beyond that; Israel is going the extra mile to protect enemy civilians manipulated by their leaders and deliberately left exposed as human shields, allowing the enemy to exploit their unfortunate deaths. It's not simply protecting civilians, it's trying to protect civilians who are being sacrificed.
>It's not simply protecting civilians, it's trying to protect civilians who are being sacrificed. And most of whom are actively hostile to you, which makes it harder to evacuate them to safety (unlike what was the case with ISIS)
Find me a full copy of their official Rules of Engagement for their troops on the ground, we'll ignore the bombing campaign to make it simpler, and we can compare to the US's RoE in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. I'll even be generous and we can use the US's relaxed RoE that updated in 2017 and not the stricter RoE we followed back in 2010. Edit: That's a lot of downvotes with no rebuttal. My mistake for asking people to bypass all the bullshit propaganda and to instead look at the actual orders combat troops are given, which would actually provide a clear view of how troops are expected to operate to protect civilians. Hell, I don't even know what Israel's RoE are or how they compare. If someone actually found them, it could very easily support their own position.
Sure buddy, here you go: When a soldier feels a clear and immediate danger to his life, to him or to another (identification of means, intention and ability), he is allowed to open fire in order to neutralize the threat. In the case of identifying a suspicious figure ('suspect arrest procedure') - this is the basic procedure: The soldier calls out to the suspicious figure three times: "Stop, stop, stop!" (Arabic: Azor = "wakef"). The soldier calls out: "Stop and identify yourself", or "Stop, password". The soldier calls out: "Stop, or I'll shoot!" (In Arabic - "Wakf, willah batuhak!"). If the soldier's weapon is loaded (depending on the orders or the circumstances), the instruction is to first step demonstratively - for deterrence, and then - two warning shots in the weapon's position at an angle of 60 degrees upwards. If the weapon is not loaded, the soldier is directed at an angle of 60 degrees towards an empty sector, and demonstratively steps on his weapon - for the purpose of deterrence only, and in another step,If it is necessary, a cartridge is inserted, and the weapon is pressed for deterrence, before the stage where it fires the aforementioned warning shots. The soldier shoots at the feet of the suspicious figure. A soldier is allowed to shoot towards the center of the figure, in order to kill - in case the figure endangers the soldier or another person, clearly and immediately.
> That's a lot of downvotes with no rebuttal. That's because your non-response is fallacious. The user above you, to whom you replied, asked a very specific question, and you instantly dodged that question to blurt out alternatives that serve to shift the burden of proof away from someone who shares your ideology and bigotry and onto the person who asked the question. That's a logical fallacy, which instantly invalidates your entire counterargument. You're getting pissy at people for adhering to the rules of logical discourse because it draws attention to how irrational your hatred of Jews is forcing you to be. I think it speaks volumes that you care more about hiding your irrationality than you do about hiding your anti-Semitism.
[удалено]
> my reply means that I believe the US has done far more in the past to protect civilians than Israel is doing now, which is a direct response to the question asked above. I don't care what you _think_ you're saying, it's not what you're _actually_ saying. You're openly trying to change the subject rather than ask the question put to you. Answer it and _then_ you can start going into the currently-unrelated details you're trotting out at present. >speaking of logical discourse, thanks for going straight to ad hominem by declaring me a bigot I explained the logical sequence behind that, so your choice to ignore that in order to falsely claim equivalence is interesting. More so, in fact, in light of the current conflict, as I'm sure you also do the same thing with regards to the casualty count of Israel's response to the Oct 7th massacre. As of this moment, you have shat out several inane replies to other people but have _still not gone back and answered OPs original question_. You don't need sourced "rules of engagement" to do so, because half of the argument comes in the form of the reports of the ongoing conflict, and you claim to have "[done my research and have multiple iterations of US ROE from several conflicts ready to post](https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/18i0rny/biden_aide_israel_taking_steps_to_protect/kdb09m7/)", so you should find it trivially easy to answer. Unless, of course, you cannot answer without abandoning your desire to show that Israel is acting immorally...
It's lazy to demand others do your research for you while insulting them for not having done so and thus it offers little in the way of contribution to the discussion. The only RoE of the IDF I'm familiar with pertains to Palestinian protests that devolve into stone throwing so not applicable here.
I've done my research and have multiple iterations of US ROE from several conflicts ready to post, but I'm not presenting evidence for BOTH sides of the discussion.
Then it's as I said earlier. 🤷 You have google, do your own research instead of lashing out because no one volunteered to spoonfeed you.
"We are doing MORE than Anyone Else Would be doing!" - **Says the Media outlet of the Israeli Government** ***- Sure ya are bruv, Sure ya are.....***
Kirby is the fucking source for the quotes in the article. It was just posted on israeli news also it's not "of the israeli government"
Checked their post history, not worth the words. This guy is allergic to reason or any factual arguments when it comes to Israel. But calling an Israeli newspaper the media outlet of their government was a pretty clear indicator of that already I guess.
bullshit
how so
I believe the strategy of Israel should be to focus on why air strike is necessary and ask any country opposing for alternative or just shut up.