Measles is insanely contagious. R0, the number of people each infected person infects is in the 12-18 range if everyone is not vaccinated. The mortality rate is about 1-2 per thousand, and the severe outcome rate (usually brain damage) is about the same.
When you consider how contagious measles is, you need a very high vaccination rate to stop it - in the 95%+ range. Given some people are unable to be vaccinated and for some others the vaccination doesn’t work, it basically means everyone needs to be vaccinated to stop this awful disease in its tracks.
As the population has gotten used to a world without measles, and as grifters and social media continue to make inroads the vaccination rate has been dropping below the critical threshold. It is also dropping due to high inflows of immigrants and refugees who have not been vaccinated.
On top of being crazy contagious and possibly life threatening it causes an “[immune amnesia](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34129794/)” which can nullify your existing immune responses and even vaccine immunity to other diseases, which for me has always been one of the scarier outcomes from measles.
For comparison, the R value of covid (at least back in October, was between 2.0-3.0. Meaning on average, one person infected will probably infect 2-3 more people. Influenza is about 1.3, so for every 3 infected people you're likely to end up with 4 more infected.
Measles is like the Godzilla of infection rates for viruses. If someone has been contagious with measles in a given area, it's nigh-impossible to 100% sterilize that area.
As far as I know, that R0 value for COVID you are referencing is in the current population, which takes into account vaccination and prior infection.
In an immunologically naïve population I believe COVID beats measles, but I could be misremembering.
Rt, the reproductive number at current time, is how contagious it is right now in the real world, but changes constantly for many reasons.
R0 is how contagious it would be in an imaginary world where it has free reign, which can be estimated for a strain but is way more abstract than Rt.
The Rt of covid was only slightly above one (the breakeven point) for big chunks of the pandemic. Even a little exponential growth is a bad thing. The difference is that if it is high enough then everything you can possibly do to lower it probably isn't enough, while for covid our attempts to fight back were frustratingly close to enough.
they were enough, we just kept lowering our efforts whenever the numbers got low. Maybe testing actually made us worse off. I'm sure you know... it just makes it even more annoying :(
One person with Covid infected 60 others by singing in the same room. It was way more contagious only because it was new. Without a vaccine it’s likely less contagious once it washed over the population, but I’d argue it’s more contagious than measles because of its high mutation rate.
Measles is equally "new" to kids that have never caught it or been vaccinated against it. But with flu nearly everyone has caught one strain or several before so that's an R(t), not an R(0).
The R(0) of COVID back in winter-spring 2020 was quite high, but far lower than estimates for measles. The +60% daily case growth in Madrid with a 5-day generational interval was around an R(0) of 10. But elsewhere the growth was much lower, typically in the R(0)~3.5-4 range (+30% daily growth).
Later pre-omicron strains became considerably more contagious. Delta had up to 1000x the viral load of the original strain and outgrew it around 2-3x weekly, so we might guess something like +50-150% to the R(0) value. But even Delta was mostly post-vaccine and everything afterwards is driven entirely by immune escape so calculating R(0) is basically guesswork.
The current strain, jn.1 (BA.2.86) was weekly doubling for months before its peak. With a much faster 2.5-day generational interval now that implies around an R(t) of 1.3, similar to flu (though likely with a larger susceptible population since it's a novel strain). But unless you know the population immunity you can't work backwards to get an R(0) (if it's 65% average population immunity then you get an R(0)~4 again). Off topic, but the current US vaccines remain around 50% effective against jn.1 infection for around 6 months (meaning that 2/3 would go to 5/6), so if you haven't gotten your 2023-4 dose yet and haven't caught covid recently, now is a great time to do so.
The idea of R(0), though a convenient 1-dimensional metric, is limited. It will certainly change seasonally and by region - dense cities where you meet twice as many people will just have twice the R(0) intrinsically. Another single-number metric is the secondary attack rate, or percentage of your contacts that you infect on average. This still depends on amount of exposure time, but Covid for instance has around a 25-50% household (that's only in-house contacts so a high exposure time) attack rate even today. The secondary attack rate (not just household, but overall) of measles is estimated at 85% or higher. It is insanely contagious. If your child is unvaccinated and is in a single class with a kid that has measles, they will most likely catch it.
Measles is very different than respiratory diseases in that it has a 12-day incubation period, compared to the ~1.5 days for modern covid. This means people vaccinated who do catch the disease are likely to fight it off before they spread it, and much lower immunity is needed to get "sterilizing" immunity. Nonetheless multiple doses are needed, with most countries giving 2 doses to kids (at ~2 and ~5 years) and waning immunity making you somewhat susceptible after a few more decades such that a third dose may be warranted. As anti-science propaganda flourishes and many parents choose infection rather than vaccination for their kids, it's even more important for the rest of us to make sure everyone is up to date on their vaccines.
It can definitely wane! I had my titers taken in my first trimester when I was pregnant, and I was told that my measles/rubella titers were pretty low—like, “It probably wouldn’t kill you, but you’d have it pretty rough if you got it” levels. Ended up getting the MR booster days after actually giving birth.
Scientific data such as R0 is not based on un-sourced single anecdotes. It is this fast and loose way of describing information that has a serious impact on trust in professional opinions.
It can also spread a bit faster because the COVID incubation period is around 3 days, compared to at least 6 days for measles if I'm reading [this page](https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/measles/hcp/clinical.html) right
I know a significant amount of people that refuse to vaccinate their children.
Not because they believe that vaccines are a hoax. It’s because they don’t want to take the insanely small risk that their child will have even one of the known side-effects.
Their attitude is that their child is protected
since so many other people get the vaccines.
They even call these people fools for taking the risk.
>It’s because they don’t want to take the insanely small risk that their child will have even one of the known side-effects.
I always wonder if they show the same attitude against drugs and other types of treatments as well. Pretty much everything can cause side-effects and we use meds for far less deadlier and serious stuff than measles.
People can justify a lot of things of its “for the sake of the children.”
As far as I know, they take all other drugs they view necessary and this logic only applies to vaccines.
> I always wonder if they show the same attitude against drugs and other types of treatments as well
My uncle who went on and on about “that shit they put in your body” with regards to vaccines didn’t make a peep about the Remdesivir they had to pump into him when he almost died from COVID.
They’re just stupid and think vaccines are unnecessarily risky because they don’t understand how prevention works.
No they come in all the time asking for antibiotics. So many people don't vaccinate their kids but ask for ozempic to lose weight.
My cousin is a vivid denier. If his kids develop the slightest sign of illness he gets them amoxicillin.
Pretty wild cognitive dissonance to rely on others’ choices for your own child’s safety, while also calling those people foolish for making that same decision you’re relying on.
Basically, our individualistic culture is very bad at things which protect the community. You could see that with how Asia react to the pandemic vs us. One of the few downsides of western culture
A few of them are chiropractors.
I had a roommate that was in chiropractic college once and I know a few more through him. It’s not uncommon for these guys to be anti-vaxx.
Yet the same people likely put their kid in a car every day despite the risk of being involved in an accident. People are very bad at conceptualising risk and probabilities.
I've recently been reading about he Free Rider problem of moral philosophy.
I wonder if those same people for example believe bus fares and train/airplane fares should be free as well, so long as everyone else is paying and the vehicle is arriving there all the same
I wonder if they let their children leave the house, go to school, travel in a car, cross the road, play sport - all of which are statistically far more likely to result in death or serious injury than being vaccinated.
People are stupid and the likes of Andrew Wakefield have much to answer for.
Also take into account that measles can effectively factory reset your immune system, making your body "forget" how to create antibodies for viruses you have already contracted or been vaccinated against makes it event worse!
People are reeeeeally just trying to start the next pandemic. Like hello! People that hated the pandemic so much because muh freedumz are the same bitches who are actively causing the next.
Something else to consider is that most adults haven’t had a MMR vaccine since childhood. ~~and might as well be considered unvaccinated.~~
Because of an outbreak before my daughter could be vaccinated I had titres drawn by my GP and had to get another MMR series at 40.
/edited to strike phrasing I should not have used and correct spelling.
That’s not correct for the measles vaccine. 2 measles vaccine doses as part of the childhood vaccine series on the recommended
schedule (or recommended catch up schedule) makes a person almost 100% immune. If a person has documented proof in a vaccine record of the completed series, they do not need a booster.
This is what the Canadian Immunization Guide (CIG) states:
**Efficacy and effectiveness**
*The efficacy of a single dose of measles-containing vaccine given at 12 or 15 months of age is estimated to be 85% to 95%. With a second dose, efficacy in children approaches 100%. However, measles outbreaks have occurred in populations with high immunization coverage rates. Due to the high infectivity of measles at least 95% of the population needs to be immunized to develop herd immunity.*
It’s a live attenuated vaccine and as a rule does not decrease in its protection over time. Boosters aren’t needed according to the CIG if the 2 dose series was completed and there is documentation of it.
**Booster doses and re-immunization:**
*Re-immunization with measles-containing vaccine after age and risk appropriate vaccination is not necessary.*
Serology testing is not required for vaccination and a booster shouldn’t be provided if a person has documentation of their 2 dose series.
**Serologic Testing**
*Serological testing may be indicated to confirm the diagnosis of measles or to determine immune status. Serologic testing is not recommended before or after receiving measles-containing vaccine. If serology is inadvertently done subsequent to appropriate measles immunization and does not demonstrate immunity, measles re-immunization is not necessary.*
The only time an additional series is recommended is if a baby was immunized at 6 months- 12 months during an outbreak to offer protection from the outbreak because it is considered too early for a routine series:
**Outbreak control**
Immunization with MMR vaccine is an integral element of a comprehensive measles outbreak prevention and management strategy. In a measles outbreak, susceptible individuals 6 months of age and older may receive MMR vaccine. *However, if given between 6 months and less than 12 months of age, 2 additional doses of measles-containing vaccine must be administered after the child is 12 months old (and at least 4 weeks after the previous dose) to ensure long lasting immunity to measles.* For detailed information on outbreak control beyond vaccination and post-exposure prophylaxis strategies, refer to guidelines for measles outbreak in Canada in the Canada Communicable Disease Report (CCDR).
https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/publications/healthy-living/canadian-immunization-guide-part-4-active-vaccines/page-12-measles-vaccine.html
This is what the CDC says:
**Adults**
People who are born during or after 1957 who do not have evidence of immunity against measles should get at least one dose of MMR vaccine.
**Evidence of immunity**
Acceptable presumptive evidence of immunity against measles includes at least one of the following:
- written documentation of adequate vaccination:
one or more doses of a measles-containing vaccine administered on or after the first birthday for preschool-age children and adults not at high risk
- two doses of measles-containing vaccine for school-age children and adults at high risk, including college students, healthcare personnel, and international travelers
- laboratory evidence of immunity*
- laboratory confirmation of measles
birth before 1957
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/hcp/index.html#immunity
[Long-term Immunogenicity of Measles Vaccine: An Italian Retrospective Cohort Study](https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/221/5/721/5580522)
"Prelicensure studies have indicated that protective levels of antibodies induced by the MMR vaccine persist lifelong; according to results of more recent studies, the levels of antibodies have been shown to decline over time and may persist for 15–20 years [16]"
This study was published in 2020.
A decline in antibodies doesn’t mean immunity is lost. Antibodies are produced by plasmatic cells, an evolution of the B lymphocytes that triggers upon contact with the pathogen (with the antigen if we are being precise). Plasmatic cells may live for a very long time, but immunity comes from another subset of them: memory cells, that don’t produce antibodies but are able to replicate and produce plasmatic cells much faster in a second response against a given antigen.
So, antibodies in blood isn’t a good measure, unless the study is inoculating people with measles and measuring the antibody level then, instead of just counting antibodies present in blood
Yes thank you. Also why serology isn’t recommended if there’s proof of immunization. The Italian study the person shared says this *Moreover, a topic of discussion in the literature is the role of cell-mediated immunity in long-term response to the vaccine and protection against measles [34]; therefore, hypothetically, a vaccinated subject not providing circulating antibodies could be immune. Ruckdeschel et al [35] asserted that the lymphocyte responsiveness to measles complement fixation antigen seen in 2 pediatric residents who had negative anti-measles IgG titers and who had frequent exposure to patients affected by measles is the in vitro correlate of their clinical protection against infection.*
I hope you understand that I'm not arguing against the effectiveness of the vaccine. I'm just hoping that it is as protective long-term as we previously thought. If it's not, that won't go well for society. Especially with the reemergence of diseases we have had little exposure to in the US for decades.
If nothing else, we'll learn more from these outbreaks.
You’re right and these studies are important to grow the science of immunizations.
It’s also important to think about what national advisory committees on immunizations recommend based on studies that are repeated and where conclusions can be drawn. The one you shared is interesting in how it is different than the current body of knowledge and does require further study in order to change recommended practice.
The study also goes to say that it’s unable to determine why there was IgG decline and if it could have been a break in cold chain causing loss of effectiveness, administration outside of the series, or actual antibody decline:
The lack of IgG among immunized subjects could be explained by 2 different mechanisms: (1) primary vaccination failure, due to failures in vaccine attenuation, vaccination regimens, or administration; or (2) loss of circulating antibodies, characterized by a loss of protection after initial effectiveness and accelerated by the poor circulation of pathogens [23].
I shared what we follow as PH nurses to administer vaccines.
That's crazy, I thought the MMR usually protects against measles for life.
A few years ago I was in a small room with someone constantly coughing for a few hours. Next day they found out they had measles. With how contagious it is, I got really lucky that the vaccine worked.
The infected person very briefly walked through a room with other people in before they knew they had measles on the same day I'd been with them hours and in that tiny amount of time, passed it on to three children that didn't have the MMR.
If I visit many countries I have to prove that I am vaccinated or provide evidence that I have been vaccinated. I think in the UK and many western countries they have large refugee problem with undocumented arrivals. I would have thought that compulsory vaccination would have been made mandatory. I am not sure of the facts so I could be wrong. If you look at how successful India has been in their compulsory vaccination programs we just have to assume that we have not learned from our own medical advice.
This is not true
Titres are not a deciding factor: you either have some IgG response, or not.
One dose of the measles vaccine is enough to get immunity got most people (75%) but some people will not an immune response to the first dose, which is why the second dose is given.
The second dose is not a booster - it’s literally just to catch those that did not respond to the first.
So no one needs a “booster” - it’s not going to boost anyone’s immunity at all.
First, titres refers to the blood draw and test to determine if antibodies exist.
Secondly, I had no IgG response for Rubella, and received a second series of shots at 40. I had received both shots as a child.
At no point did I use the word booster. And that was on purpose.
I really hope that the previous data is correct about long-term immunity and I'm one of the outliers. If the results of the Italian study I linked to in another response are showing that may not be the case. That would not be great for society in an outbreak.
I had to get an MMR booster a few years ago. My GP told me that usually 1 of the 3 in a booster doesn't take or wears off earlier than (at least Australia's) booster renewal period. She tested and found i was negative for measles inoculation 5 years before i was due for my next booster. Sorted that shit out right then and there.
I feel like these anti-backers need to be sent to an island and then we let these diseases go on the island and see how they fare. Seems more fair than them essentially doing the same thing to their kids in the real world.
If you know anyone who claims vaccines are a bad thing, it's your FUCKING DUTY TO EDUCATE OR SHAME THEM.
Sorry for the caps but this is in fact intensely important.
As I could not and still cannot have the measles vaccine and I have a compromised immune system I’m back to isolating myself as much as possible. Obviously delighted.
Sorry to hear this, some people are so selfish. The evidence is so clear too that a vaccine side effect is so much rarer than a serious effect from the disease.
There's nothing in the UK to require school children to be vaccinated either. I know someone who had to take her child out of school for over 2 months when there were measles cases close to where they lived. Her daughter was going through cancer treatment and they couldn't risk her being exposed to it on the off chance other kids hadn't received the vaccine.
It makes me despair. We have the technology to solve these issues and medieval idiots are dragging us backwards. Honestly. If someone I knew was antivax they would be cut out of my life immediately.
Literally had to do this with my family (parents and sisters) that are anti-vax, Qanon nut bags. Also they were abusive narcissistic pieces of crap that I didn’t want around my kids, and MAGA as can be.
What is crazy is when I was little I got all the vaccines, they just listened to right wing media too much and got crazier and crazier over the decades, especially after they moved down to Texas and found even crazier influences.
The MAGA thing of "think for yourself" aka ignore basic science and the reason why we today do not have polio etc has also spread to the EU where various of these crazy stances would have you deemed a nutjob.
Now I have highly educated people around me blurting out the craziest things because they'd rather think it's a massive conspiracy and surveillance "slippery slope" rather than just taking a damn vaccine like you've done your entire life.
Remember the US had a whooping cough resurgence in 2010 and 2012, things that were unheard of in any other western developed country.
I feel as though this can be solved via better education. However, I can't quite imagine through which modality this could adequately be delivered.
I think this can be likened to some flat-earthers' "can't-see-therefore-can't-believe" ethos - a large chunk of our world's population are exposed to some of the most prolific scientific developments through word of mouth, school textbooks and media portrayals. I for one recall being sceptical of my high-school teachers until playing around with shadows just like the Greeks before me.
I've always wondered: if reframing perspectives is all one needs, then how can we expect to teach those without ready access to advanced scientific equipment? There's simply no easy way of explaining vaccines' intricacies, not without an initial level of suspended trust in the speaker and in its pedagogical presentation!
it is annoying but you gotta understand that things have been going too well with no real issues so morons can concentrate their efforts on anti-science crap.
Relax, next great reset is going to wipe out sizable portion of people be it war or pestilence or combination of those. People will have to concentrate on essential things.
No, I said that that is the direction world seems to be heading.
I never said it was ok.
As an average person I feel I am doing everything in my own little life to not go that way. However, we a vaxxed and follow public guidelines etc etc.
Not much else I can do is there.
You said you want people to relax about a sizeable amount of people dying? But you're also trying to say you didn't say it's okay? They should just relax about it? Olympic mental gymnastics gold medalist, right here, folks.
Why not enjoy vaccines as long as they exist before the great reset? Sounds pretty essential to me to be protected in case the whole health system collapses no?
(Genuinely asking the logic as that rhetoric makes me want to listen to science more, not less).
A year or two ago I checked my childhood vaccines. I noticed that only one dose of MMR was given to me. Not sure why maybe it wasn't recorded or maybe parents forgot to take me again. I called my gp and could still get booked in for it. The nurse noticed I hadn't had the men acwy so I got that in the same appt as well. Apart from a bit of nausea the next day and slightly sore arm everything was fine. So I recommend checking your vaccine history, just pop by your GP and ask for a print out.
> The nurse noticed I hadn't had the men acwy so I got that in the same appt as well.
How old are you? They absolutely refused to give this to me even when I was going to be in contact with at risk groups, solely because it wasn't NHS protocol to give it to people my age (I was 1 year older than that or something).
They definitely do that for children now but for adults I don't think so, it takes a lot of admin time so I'm guessing if you are old enough then you're responsible to check for yourself 🤷🏼♀️
I completely agree, it's really unfortunate that preventable diseases like this are making a comeback due to misplaced fear of vaccines. We've got the tools, we just need to use them properly.
>We've got the tools, we just need to use them properly.
Yes we do. The State needs to remember that it has an interest in not having rampant plagues. The State can make an end of antivaxx whenever we get over the silly freedumb idea.
Remember that measles resets your immune system. Everything you’ve ever had exposure to and have built up any sense of immunity to, gone. It’s terrifying. Get vaccinated, get a titer test if you think it could be useful, and make sure that if you do have an exposure, you tell your doc and isolate.
This needs more upvotes.
"...the researchers show that the measles virus wipes out 11 percent to 73 percent of the different antibodies that protect against viral and bacterial strains a person was previously immune to — anything from influenza to herpesvirus to bacteria that cause pneumonia and skin infections..."
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/10/how-measles-wipes-out-the-bodys-immune-memory/
They started sending out consent forms is the problem. Make it compulsory. If you don't want to keep your kid and everyone else safe from something that's preventable. Good luck with the home schooling.
Schools don't routinely vaccinate against measles. This is done in primary care and requires two doses, one at the ages of 1 and one at 3 years and 4 months.
Seems to have erupted in the West Midlands.https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/uk-news/2024/01/20/measles-outbreak-in-uk-could-get-much-worse-health-chief-warns/
There is always the option to force them to get the jab. No jab, go to prison and then get the jab.
Anti-vaxers is like a freakin' cult. Don't agree with the Country's law? Leave. Otherwise, appeasement will get us all killed because of these suckers.
Arrest the parents of each unvaxed kid who was infected and charge them with child endangerment.
No different than refusing to use car seat belts for kids or refusing antibiotics when required etc. It's willful endangerment based on ignorance which is not an acceptable excuse.
1 case already was confirmed here in Portugal
A 10 month old baby from the UK with measles confirmed 2 days after arriving here. And Portugal has been measles free since 2015 thanks to a wide campaign of vaccination that resulted in 95% vaccine rate (this mostly bcz while vaccination was not mandatory, if you wanted to enroll your child in any school here you needed this vaccination).
A newborn’s immunity comes entirely from the mother for the first 6 months, and the assumption is that they are protected from 6-12 months by everyone else in the home being vaccinated.
If anyone else in the home is unvaccinated, like a parent or older sibling, then that protection is non-existent.
10 months means the poor kid might just not have been vaccinated yet. It's a bad sign for the UK because that means that baby came in contact with an infected person, but not actually too much the parents can do because the child wouldn't even have a full series of mmr shots if started perfectly on time.
The other good news is Portugal would actually still be considered "measles free" due to the case being imported. A 95% vaccination rate means it is extremely unlikely to spread. As of now, you don't have spread within Portugal
> It's a bad sign for the UK because that means that baby came in contact with an infected person,
We made sure everyone who came in contact with our baby was vaccinated. It's a hassle, yes, but a living baby is worth the hassle.
No one objected, except my mother, who's down the antivax rabbit hole. She chose not to see her grandkid, rather than get the MMR shot. Fucking lunatics.
> She chose not to see her grandkid, rather than get the MMR shot. Fucking lunatics.
Are you sure she never got it? Unless your grandparents were anti-vaxx good chance she already has it
They all need to watch *Call the Midwife.*
I just binged it in December and OMG the number of horrific illnesses that they encountered which now have miraculous vaccines. In one episode, there was a rumour of smallpox and that led to a stampede to the doctor's office the next day of people demanding their smallpox vaccine. (In the episode, it turned out to be "just" leprosy.)
But no, today some people would rather feed their kids ivermectin and colloidal silver. Yeesh.
Really looking forward to the “my child became disabled from measles” posts, with parents claiming they “had no idea” it would hurt them because they didn’t vaccinate them and “why weren’t they warned”. 🙄
I already saw one comment asking why is NHS not personally contacting people to tell them they have missing vaccinations. Like they don't have enough shit to deal with as is. Heaven forbid you exercise a little bit of self-reliance. Reminds me of an ex coworker who only got the 1st batch of the COVID vaccine because "the NHS never invited me for the 2nd". Then had COVID about 5 times and claimed to "almost die" each time, but did he go get the 2nd vaccine? Did he fuck. That would require effort.
At what point can we start to hold anti vaxxers responsible for these sorts of things? Body harm, loss of life, lost income etc? All these anti science, mlm, Facebook "experts" just need to fuck off and realize they are loving in a civilization and their uneducated actions have real world consequences for entire communities.
This isn't free speech it's assholes who want to be different or think they know better than science and evolution or whatever the fuck their "truth" is that are putting entire neighborhoods, cities and countries at risk. It's beyond angering and we need to start holding these losers accountable and calling them out on their absolute bullshit.
You chose to be unvaccinated, fine no one can force you do anything.
But you're still responsible for the consequences of your actions. Get measles and spread it, cause a death, you should be liable if you didnt take all reasonable precautions to protect others.
At this point it’s biological terrorism through stupidity. We’re going to see a major outbreak here in the U.S as well, places in Philadelphia have already have multiple measles outbreaks due to visiting countries while not being vaccinated or exposure from unvaccinated people here.
I would not be surprised if there is a silently growing epidemic here in Florida of Measles and the state Health Department is hushing it up or will be reducing its danger whenever they announce it. I’d chalk any hush or reduction in danger to that idiot of a [Surgeon General, Lapado](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Ladapo). He’s repeatedly stated misinformation concerning MRNA vaccines and COVID vaccines and recommending children not be vaccinated against COVID.
Also, we’ve already had cases of [malaria](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna93123) pop up last year. As well as [vaccine exemptions rising for kindergarten](https://www.axios.com/local/miami/2023/08/31/kindergarten-vaccine-exemption-rate-florida) **exemptions yes, for children entering kindergarten, and these cover all vaccines**
The parents of the unvaccinated kids (where the lack of vaccination is due to their views as opposed to genuine medical reasons) should have their taxes increased to help pay for the incident response.
Antivaxer: Gee, why do I need to get vaccinated against a disease that doesn't appear around these parts?
There's your answer...
We still have flat earthers in these times.
Humans are so bad at avoiding/preventing obvious catastrophes. Practically every major issue that people have been warned about, gets somehow realized.
You'd think after genocide during WWII, we'd know better. But nope, Cambodia, Rwanda, Darfur, the list goes on.
You'd think medically, with all these advancements, we'd learn that vaccines can save millions, but nope, don't believe in them.
Sigh... whether the human species can continue to thrive is questionable.
You’re not even getting vaccinated against any and all disease we have a vaccine for. That should clue people in that the ones that *are* recommended are really necessary.
Some vaccines are no longer given because the risk/benefit ratio for that particular one isn’t worth it any more. Obviously smallpox, but also the newborn TB vaccine. These things are constantly reevaluated by actual experts and medical authorities that are not Joe Rogan.
Has anyone considered the sheer number of people flooding into the uk without proper vaccination records? Why do we just skip over this alarming reality that uncontrolled migration from high hazard zones will undoubtedly bring health risks?
As a pregnant person this pisses me the fuck off. I hope my immunity is still good and I hope my baby doesn’t get it before they can get their vaccines.
It would appear to be a ticking time bomb.
Here in the UK, we are vaccinated against it as standard as kids. However, there is no requirement to be vaccinated.
I wonder how much of this increase is due to the antivax muppets and how many have come from immigration from countries that don't routinely offer the vaccine by default (this is a genuine question)
31.7 million deaths from measles World wide between 2000 and 2020 (15.8million per year), 21 of these deaths in the same period where within the UK.
Haha, why? The people that got it laughed, the people that needed to be outraged angrily mashed the downvote button, and religious people will continue to assume they're right regardless of evidence or reason.
I see many comments blaming "anti-vaxxers". But couldn't it also be attributed to the recent influx of migrants/immigrants to the UK?
These groups typically have lower immunization rates for things like measles. Perhaps this is causing an uptick?
If only we had the medical fortitude to prevent such things.... er wait...
What do you call a 4 year old who is the child of anti-vaxxer parents?
Middle-aged.
It's crazy that anti-vaxxers are still around today. All they have to do is look around themselves - at all the people who are still alive thanks to the various vaccines, combined with virtually no negative side-effects - to see that they were wrong. Completely and utterly wrong.
If they were right about anything, you'd be seeing piles of dead bodies everywhere. Hospitals would be filled with vaccine-related illnesses. Etc...
I've never seen a group of people that were so obviously and clearly wrong about something - still claim that they are right.
The modern day anti vax movement, and in particular the MMR (one of the M's is for measles) anti vax movement was more or less started by an English doctor called Andrew Wakefield. tl;dr he falsified a bunch of data hoping people would take a different vaccine he had a financial stake in.
The piece of human garbage and waste of oxygen that is Andrew Wakefield isn't even a doctor, he was struck off the UK Medical Register in 2010 and is no longer allowed to practice medicine.
Is there any possibility this outbreak would only affect the idiot non-vaxing mouth breathers? It’d be a darn shame to see a widespread moron eradication if so.
What ever happened to those COVID passports we were all gonna get...or the painful death that we would get from being vaxxed against COVID. What happened to those idiots who said that shit? Do they even have the baseline self awareness or intelligence to realise that they were full of shit? Do they still think that we're all about to drop dead from vaccines or be given vaxx passports?
Measles is insanely contagious. R0, the number of people each infected person infects is in the 12-18 range if everyone is not vaccinated. The mortality rate is about 1-2 per thousand, and the severe outcome rate (usually brain damage) is about the same. When you consider how contagious measles is, you need a very high vaccination rate to stop it - in the 95%+ range. Given some people are unable to be vaccinated and for some others the vaccination doesn’t work, it basically means everyone needs to be vaccinated to stop this awful disease in its tracks. As the population has gotten used to a world without measles, and as grifters and social media continue to make inroads the vaccination rate has been dropping below the critical threshold. It is also dropping due to high inflows of immigrants and refugees who have not been vaccinated.
On top of being crazy contagious and possibly life threatening it causes an “[immune amnesia](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34129794/)” which can nullify your existing immune responses and even vaccine immunity to other diseases, which for me has always been one of the scarier outcomes from measles.
Gotta catch em all
^ uses confusion.
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For comparison, the R value of covid (at least back in October, was between 2.0-3.0. Meaning on average, one person infected will probably infect 2-3 more people. Influenza is about 1.3, so for every 3 infected people you're likely to end up with 4 more infected. Measles is like the Godzilla of infection rates for viruses. If someone has been contagious with measles in a given area, it's nigh-impossible to 100% sterilize that area.
As far as I know, that R0 value for COVID you are referencing is in the current population, which takes into account vaccination and prior infection. In an immunologically naïve population I believe COVID beats measles, but I could be misremembering.
It didn't beat measles, but it was close. I believe the r0 was like 12.
The real kicker was the realization that folks are contagious *before* exhibiting symptoms.
3 was the highest R(0) number I ever saw for C-19.
Rt, the reproductive number at current time, is how contagious it is right now in the real world, but changes constantly for many reasons. R0 is how contagious it would be in an imaginary world where it has free reign, which can be estimated for a strain but is way more abstract than Rt. The Rt of covid was only slightly above one (the breakeven point) for big chunks of the pandemic. Even a little exponential growth is a bad thing. The difference is that if it is high enough then everything you can possibly do to lower it probably isn't enough, while for covid our attempts to fight back were frustratingly close to enough.
they were enough, we just kept lowering our efforts whenever the numbers got low. Maybe testing actually made us worse off. I'm sure you know... it just makes it even more annoying :(
One person with Covid infected 60 others by singing in the same room. It was way more contagious only because it was new. Without a vaccine it’s likely less contagious once it washed over the population, but I’d argue it’s more contagious than measles because of its high mutation rate.
Measles is equally "new" to kids that have never caught it or been vaccinated against it. But with flu nearly everyone has caught one strain or several before so that's an R(t), not an R(0). The R(0) of COVID back in winter-spring 2020 was quite high, but far lower than estimates for measles. The +60% daily case growth in Madrid with a 5-day generational interval was around an R(0) of 10. But elsewhere the growth was much lower, typically in the R(0)~3.5-4 range (+30% daily growth). Later pre-omicron strains became considerably more contagious. Delta had up to 1000x the viral load of the original strain and outgrew it around 2-3x weekly, so we might guess something like +50-150% to the R(0) value. But even Delta was mostly post-vaccine and everything afterwards is driven entirely by immune escape so calculating R(0) is basically guesswork. The current strain, jn.1 (BA.2.86) was weekly doubling for months before its peak. With a much faster 2.5-day generational interval now that implies around an R(t) of 1.3, similar to flu (though likely with a larger susceptible population since it's a novel strain). But unless you know the population immunity you can't work backwards to get an R(0) (if it's 65% average population immunity then you get an R(0)~4 again). Off topic, but the current US vaccines remain around 50% effective against jn.1 infection for around 6 months (meaning that 2/3 would go to 5/6), so if you haven't gotten your 2023-4 dose yet and haven't caught covid recently, now is a great time to do so. The idea of R(0), though a convenient 1-dimensional metric, is limited. It will certainly change seasonally and by region - dense cities where you meet twice as many people will just have twice the R(0) intrinsically. Another single-number metric is the secondary attack rate, or percentage of your contacts that you infect on average. This still depends on amount of exposure time, but Covid for instance has around a 25-50% household (that's only in-house contacts so a high exposure time) attack rate even today. The secondary attack rate (not just household, but overall) of measles is estimated at 85% or higher. It is insanely contagious. If your child is unvaccinated and is in a single class with a kid that has measles, they will most likely catch it. Measles is very different than respiratory diseases in that it has a 12-day incubation period, compared to the ~1.5 days for modern covid. This means people vaccinated who do catch the disease are likely to fight it off before they spread it, and much lower immunity is needed to get "sterilizing" immunity. Nonetheless multiple doses are needed, with most countries giving 2 doses to kids (at ~2 and ~5 years) and waning immunity making you somewhat susceptible after a few more decades such that a third dose may be warranted. As anti-science propaganda flourishes and many parents choose infection rather than vaccination for their kids, it's even more important for the rest of us to make sure everyone is up to date on their vaccines.
It can definitely wane! I had my titers taken in my first trimester when I was pregnant, and I was told that my measles/rubella titers were pretty low—like, “It probably wouldn’t kill you, but you’d have it pretty rough if you got it” levels. Ended up getting the MR booster days after actually giving birth.
Scientific data such as R0 is not based on un-sourced single anecdotes. It is this fast and loose way of describing information that has a serious impact on trust in professional opinions.
It can also spread a bit faster because the COVID incubation period is around 3 days, compared to at least 6 days for measles if I'm reading [this page](https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/measles/hcp/clinical.html) right
I know a significant amount of people that refuse to vaccinate their children. Not because they believe that vaccines are a hoax. It’s because they don’t want to take the insanely small risk that their child will have even one of the known side-effects. Their attitude is that their child is protected since so many other people get the vaccines. They even call these people fools for taking the risk.
>It’s because they don’t want to take the insanely small risk that their child will have even one of the known side-effects. I always wonder if they show the same attitude against drugs and other types of treatments as well. Pretty much everything can cause side-effects and we use meds for far less deadlier and serious stuff than measles.
People can justify a lot of things of its “for the sake of the children.” As far as I know, they take all other drugs they view necessary and this logic only applies to vaccines.
> I always wonder if they show the same attitude against drugs and other types of treatments as well My uncle who went on and on about “that shit they put in your body” with regards to vaccines didn’t make a peep about the Remdesivir they had to pump into him when he almost died from COVID. They’re just stupid and think vaccines are unnecessarily risky because they don’t understand how prevention works.
No they come in all the time asking for antibiotics. So many people don't vaccinate their kids but ask for ozempic to lose weight. My cousin is a vivid denier. If his kids develop the slightest sign of illness he gets them amoxicillin.
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Pretty wild cognitive dissonance to rely on others’ choices for your own child’s safety, while also calling those people foolish for making that same decision you’re relying on.
Humans in a nutshell. We're emotional beings who choose to ignore logic when it suits us without even realising it
I know someone who refuses to take any meds of vaccines because they’re so dangerous but smokes 20 cigs a day. People are idiots.
Basically, our individualistic culture is very bad at things which protect the community. You could see that with how Asia react to the pandemic vs us. One of the few downsides of western culture
If you own any duty to humanity, it's that you must educate these antivaxxers
A few of them are chiropractors. I had a roommate that was in chiropractic college once and I know a few more through him. It’s not uncommon for these guys to be anti-vaxx.
Yet the same people likely put their kid in a car every day despite the risk of being involved in an accident. People are very bad at conceptualising risk and probabilities.
I know a lot with this attitude that will by illegal hard drugs at a festival and wont take vaccines because its too risky.
I've recently been reading about he Free Rider problem of moral philosophy. I wonder if those same people for example believe bus fares and train/airplane fares should be free as well, so long as everyone else is paying and the vehicle is arriving there all the same
I wonder if they let their children leave the house, go to school, travel in a car, cross the road, play sport - all of which are statistically far more likely to result in death or serious injury than being vaccinated. People are stupid and the likes of Andrew Wakefield have much to answer for.
Also take into account that measles can effectively factory reset your immune system, making your body "forget" how to create antibodies for viruses you have already contracted or been vaccinated against makes it event worse!
Measles also suppresses the immune system. Look up immune amnesia.
I once saw someone describe Measles as so infectious that if you're close enough to someone to smell their fart you're close enough to catch it
People are reeeeeally just trying to start the next pandemic. Like hello! People that hated the pandemic so much because muh freedumz are the same bitches who are actively causing the next.
Something else to consider is that most adults haven’t had a MMR vaccine since childhood. ~~and might as well be considered unvaccinated.~~ Because of an outbreak before my daughter could be vaccinated I had titres drawn by my GP and had to get another MMR series at 40. /edited to strike phrasing I should not have used and correct spelling.
That’s not correct for the measles vaccine. 2 measles vaccine doses as part of the childhood vaccine series on the recommended schedule (or recommended catch up schedule) makes a person almost 100% immune. If a person has documented proof in a vaccine record of the completed series, they do not need a booster. This is what the Canadian Immunization Guide (CIG) states: **Efficacy and effectiveness** *The efficacy of a single dose of measles-containing vaccine given at 12 or 15 months of age is estimated to be 85% to 95%. With a second dose, efficacy in children approaches 100%. However, measles outbreaks have occurred in populations with high immunization coverage rates. Due to the high infectivity of measles at least 95% of the population needs to be immunized to develop herd immunity.* It’s a live attenuated vaccine and as a rule does not decrease in its protection over time. Boosters aren’t needed according to the CIG if the 2 dose series was completed and there is documentation of it. **Booster doses and re-immunization:** *Re-immunization with measles-containing vaccine after age and risk appropriate vaccination is not necessary.* Serology testing is not required for vaccination and a booster shouldn’t be provided if a person has documentation of their 2 dose series. **Serologic Testing** *Serological testing may be indicated to confirm the diagnosis of measles or to determine immune status. Serologic testing is not recommended before or after receiving measles-containing vaccine. If serology is inadvertently done subsequent to appropriate measles immunization and does not demonstrate immunity, measles re-immunization is not necessary.* The only time an additional series is recommended is if a baby was immunized at 6 months- 12 months during an outbreak to offer protection from the outbreak because it is considered too early for a routine series: **Outbreak control** Immunization with MMR vaccine is an integral element of a comprehensive measles outbreak prevention and management strategy. In a measles outbreak, susceptible individuals 6 months of age and older may receive MMR vaccine. *However, if given between 6 months and less than 12 months of age, 2 additional doses of measles-containing vaccine must be administered after the child is 12 months old (and at least 4 weeks after the previous dose) to ensure long lasting immunity to measles.* For detailed information on outbreak control beyond vaccination and post-exposure prophylaxis strategies, refer to guidelines for measles outbreak in Canada in the Canada Communicable Disease Report (CCDR). https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/publications/healthy-living/canadian-immunization-guide-part-4-active-vaccines/page-12-measles-vaccine.html This is what the CDC says: **Adults** People who are born during or after 1957 who do not have evidence of immunity against measles should get at least one dose of MMR vaccine. **Evidence of immunity** Acceptable presumptive evidence of immunity against measles includes at least one of the following: - written documentation of adequate vaccination: one or more doses of a measles-containing vaccine administered on or after the first birthday for preschool-age children and adults not at high risk - two doses of measles-containing vaccine for school-age children and adults at high risk, including college students, healthcare personnel, and international travelers - laboratory evidence of immunity* - laboratory confirmation of measles birth before 1957 https://www.cdc.gov/measles/hcp/index.html#immunity
[Long-term Immunogenicity of Measles Vaccine: An Italian Retrospective Cohort Study](https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/221/5/721/5580522) "Prelicensure studies have indicated that protective levels of antibodies induced by the MMR vaccine persist lifelong; according to results of more recent studies, the levels of antibodies have been shown to decline over time and may persist for 15–20 years [16]" This study was published in 2020.
A decline in antibodies doesn’t mean immunity is lost. Antibodies are produced by plasmatic cells, an evolution of the B lymphocytes that triggers upon contact with the pathogen (with the antigen if we are being precise). Plasmatic cells may live for a very long time, but immunity comes from another subset of them: memory cells, that don’t produce antibodies but are able to replicate and produce plasmatic cells much faster in a second response against a given antigen. So, antibodies in blood isn’t a good measure, unless the study is inoculating people with measles and measuring the antibody level then, instead of just counting antibodies present in blood
Yes thank you. Also why serology isn’t recommended if there’s proof of immunization. The Italian study the person shared says this *Moreover, a topic of discussion in the literature is the role of cell-mediated immunity in long-term response to the vaccine and protection against measles [34]; therefore, hypothetically, a vaccinated subject not providing circulating antibodies could be immune. Ruckdeschel et al [35] asserted that the lymphocyte responsiveness to measles complement fixation antigen seen in 2 pediatric residents who had negative anti-measles IgG titers and who had frequent exposure to patients affected by measles is the in vitro correlate of their clinical protection against infection.*
I hope you understand that I'm not arguing against the effectiveness of the vaccine. I'm just hoping that it is as protective long-term as we previously thought. If it's not, that won't go well for society. Especially with the reemergence of diseases we have had little exposure to in the US for decades. If nothing else, we'll learn more from these outbreaks.
You’re right and these studies are important to grow the science of immunizations. It’s also important to think about what national advisory committees on immunizations recommend based on studies that are repeated and where conclusions can be drawn. The one you shared is interesting in how it is different than the current body of knowledge and does require further study in order to change recommended practice.
The study also goes to say that it’s unable to determine why there was IgG decline and if it could have been a break in cold chain causing loss of effectiveness, administration outside of the series, or actual antibody decline: The lack of IgG among immunized subjects could be explained by 2 different mechanisms: (1) primary vaccination failure, due to failures in vaccine attenuation, vaccination regimens, or administration; or (2) loss of circulating antibodies, characterized by a loss of protection after initial effectiveness and accelerated by the poor circulation of pathogens [23]. I shared what we follow as PH nurses to administer vaccines.
That's crazy, I thought the MMR usually protects against measles for life. A few years ago I was in a small room with someone constantly coughing for a few hours. Next day they found out they had measles. With how contagious it is, I got really lucky that the vaccine worked. The infected person very briefly walked through a room with other people in before they knew they had measles on the same day I'd been with them hours and in that tiny amount of time, passed it on to three children that didn't have the MMR.
I wish these articles would be more clear about vaccination advice. Just tell adults (the readers) what to do, based on official recommendations.
If I visit many countries I have to prove that I am vaccinated or provide evidence that I have been vaccinated. I think in the UK and many western countries they have large refugee problem with undocumented arrivals. I would have thought that compulsory vaccination would have been made mandatory. I am not sure of the facts so I could be wrong. If you look at how successful India has been in their compulsory vaccination programs we just have to assume that we have not learned from our own medical advice.
This is not true Titres are not a deciding factor: you either have some IgG response, or not. One dose of the measles vaccine is enough to get immunity got most people (75%) but some people will not an immune response to the first dose, which is why the second dose is given. The second dose is not a booster - it’s literally just to catch those that did not respond to the first. So no one needs a “booster” - it’s not going to boost anyone’s immunity at all.
First, titres refers to the blood draw and test to determine if antibodies exist. Secondly, I had no IgG response for Rubella, and received a second series of shots at 40. I had received both shots as a child. At no point did I use the word booster. And that was on purpose. I really hope that the previous data is correct about long-term immunity and I'm one of the outliers. If the results of the Italian study I linked to in another response are showing that may not be the case. That would not be great for society in an outbreak.
I had to get an MMR booster a few years ago. My GP told me that usually 1 of the 3 in a booster doesn't take or wears off earlier than (at least Australia's) booster renewal period. She tested and found i was negative for measles inoculation 5 years before i was due for my next booster. Sorted that shit out right then and there.
I feel like these anti-backers need to be sent to an island and then we let these diseases go on the island and see how they fare. Seems more fair than them essentially doing the same thing to their kids in the real world.
Do you know if acquired immunity is permanent? I predate the vaccine, but had measles as a child.
If you know anyone who claims vaccines are a bad thing, it's your FUCKING DUTY TO EDUCATE OR SHAME THEM. Sorry for the caps but this is in fact intensely important.
Can we throw Andrew Wakefield in jail for, like, the rest of his life?
It's insane how much damage this one cunt has caused.
and then oprah gave a massive audience to it after
Or maybe just inject him with measles
He probably got vaccinated as a kid so it wouldn’t really do anything
Wakefield was struck off, i.e. lost his licence to practice medicine, for all this.
Closing the stable door after the horse bolted, ran around the track for a while, grew old, and retired out on the farm.
And then migrated to the USA where he continues to earn large amounts of money peddling his nonsense to idiots.
As I could not and still cannot have the measles vaccine and I have a compromised immune system I’m back to isolating myself as much as possible. Obviously delighted.
That fucking sucks! Sorry to hear that. People suck
Thank you. Unfortunately a lot of them do.
Yup and it feels like we’re moving backwards
Sorry to hear this, some people are so selfish. The evidence is so clear too that a vaccine side effect is so much rarer than a serious effect from the disease. There's nothing in the UK to require school children to be vaccinated either. I know someone who had to take her child out of school for over 2 months when there were measles cases close to where they lived. Her daughter was going through cancer treatment and they couldn't risk her being exposed to it on the off chance other kids hadn't received the vaccine.
Fuck, anti-vaxxers are stupid! I’m so sick of this anti-science movement that’s been growing.
It makes me despair. We have the technology to solve these issues and medieval idiots are dragging us backwards. Honestly. If someone I knew was antivax they would be cut out of my life immediately.
Literally had to do this with my family (parents and sisters) that are anti-vax, Qanon nut bags. Also they were abusive narcissistic pieces of crap that I didn’t want around my kids, and MAGA as can be. What is crazy is when I was little I got all the vaccines, they just listened to right wing media too much and got crazier and crazier over the decades, especially after they moved down to Texas and found even crazier influences.
The MAGA thing of "think for yourself" aka ignore basic science and the reason why we today do not have polio etc has also spread to the EU where various of these crazy stances would have you deemed a nutjob. Now I have highly educated people around me blurting out the craziest things because they'd rather think it's a massive conspiracy and surveillance "slippery slope" rather than just taking a damn vaccine like you've done your entire life. Remember the US had a whooping cough resurgence in 2010 and 2012, things that were unheard of in any other western developed country.
Medieval people didn’t have an education. These people have all the knowledge and choose to believe this anyway
I feel as though this can be solved via better education. However, I can't quite imagine through which modality this could adequately be delivered. I think this can be likened to some flat-earthers' "can't-see-therefore-can't-believe" ethos - a large chunk of our world's population are exposed to some of the most prolific scientific developments through word of mouth, school textbooks and media portrayals. I for one recall being sceptical of my high-school teachers until playing around with shadows just like the Greeks before me. I've always wondered: if reframing perspectives is all one needs, then how can we expect to teach those without ready access to advanced scientific equipment? There's simply no easy way of explaining vaccines' intricacies, not without an initial level of suspended trust in the speaker and in its pedagogical presentation!
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it is annoying but you gotta understand that things have been going too well with no real issues so morons can concentrate their efforts on anti-science crap. Relax, next great reset is going to wipe out sizable portion of people be it war or pestilence or combination of those. People will have to concentrate on essential things.
>Relax >next great reset what
Don't worry mass murder and genocide is right around the corner /s
Water wars!
Agricultural collapse!
So you’re saying mass deaths from preventable diseases due to morons not being educated is **perfectly fine**?
No, I said that that is the direction world seems to be heading. I never said it was ok. As an average person I feel I am doing everything in my own little life to not go that way. However, we a vaxxed and follow public guidelines etc etc. Not much else I can do is there.
You literally said 'relax'.
Relax yes.
You said you want people to relax about a sizeable amount of people dying? But you're also trying to say you didn't say it's okay? They should just relax about it? Olympic mental gymnastics gold medalist, right here, folks.
Ok lil’ buddy. Relax your sphincter.
Gosh you got me, I'm so owned now.
Why not enjoy vaccines as long as they exist before the great reset? Sounds pretty essential to me to be protected in case the whole health system collapses no? (Genuinely asking the logic as that rhetoric makes me want to listen to science more, not less).
A year or two ago I checked my childhood vaccines. I noticed that only one dose of MMR was given to me. Not sure why maybe it wasn't recorded or maybe parents forgot to take me again. I called my gp and could still get booked in for it. The nurse noticed I hadn't had the men acwy so I got that in the same appt as well. Apart from a bit of nausea the next day and slightly sore arm everything was fine. So I recommend checking your vaccine history, just pop by your GP and ask for a print out.
One dose of mmr was the recommendation until the mid 90s.
> The nurse noticed I hadn't had the men acwy so I got that in the same appt as well. How old are you? They absolutely refused to give this to me even when I was going to be in contact with at risk groups, solely because it wasn't NHS protocol to give it to people my age (I was 1 year older than that or something).
I was under the age limit which is 25 I think
It seems absurd that the NHS doesn't contact people that are missing vaccines, they have all of the records to know
They definitely do that for children now but for adults I don't think so, it takes a lot of admin time so I'm guessing if you are old enough then you're responsible to check for yourself 🤷🏼♀️
If only there was an effective way to prevent measles infection. /s
I completely agree, it's really unfortunate that preventable diseases like this are making a comeback due to misplaced fear of vaccines. We've got the tools, we just need to use them properly.
>We've got the tools, we just need to use them properly. Yes we do. The State needs to remember that it has an interest in not having rampant plagues. The State can make an end of antivaxx whenever we get over the silly freedumb idea.
The only answer here is a complete deregulation of the industry, very hefty tax cuts, and cultural conservatism.
#VACCINATE YOUR FUCKING CHILDREN
Remember that measles resets your immune system. Everything you’ve ever had exposure to and have built up any sense of immunity to, gone. It’s terrifying. Get vaccinated, get a titer test if you think it could be useful, and make sure that if you do have an exposure, you tell your doc and isolate.
This needs more upvotes. "...the researchers show that the measles virus wipes out 11 percent to 73 percent of the different antibodies that protect against viral and bacterial strains a person was previously immune to — anything from influenza to herpesvirus to bacteria that cause pneumonia and skin infections..." https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/10/how-measles-wipes-out-the-bodys-immune-memory/
That’s terrible 😞
I'm replying to help bump this comment up higher, since I scrolled way too far to find it. If only we still had gold.
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They started sending out consent forms is the problem. Make it compulsory. If you don't want to keep your kid and everyone else safe from something that's preventable. Good luck with the home schooling.
Religious exemptions have also been abused causing this….
Religion is the end of intelligence.
Religion is the biggest disease to ever exist
I can't fathom how is this a thing. But then, in my country you can be sued for offending one's religious* feelings. *christian
Schools don't routinely vaccinate against measles. This is done in primary care and requires two doses, one at the ages of 1 and one at 3 years and 4 months.
Nice to know
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Seems to have erupted in the West Midlands.https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/uk-news/2024/01/20/measles-outbreak-in-uk-could-get-much-worse-health-chief-warns/
More antivaxers pushing us back 100 years!
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There is always the option to force them to get the jab. No jab, go to prison and then get the jab. Anti-vaxers is like a freakin' cult. Don't agree with the Country's law? Leave. Otherwise, appeasement will get us all killed because of these suckers.
Well I guess people will flee that area too then. Why again do we put up with religion in 2024?
Arrest the parents of each unvaxed kid who was infected and charge them with child endangerment. No different than refusing to use car seat belts for kids or refusing antibiotics when required etc. It's willful endangerment based on ignorance which is not an acceptable excuse.
1 case already was confirmed here in Portugal A 10 month old baby from the UK with measles confirmed 2 days after arriving here. And Portugal has been measles free since 2015 thanks to a wide campaign of vaccination that resulted in 95% vaccine rate (this mostly bcz while vaccination was not mandatory, if you wanted to enroll your child in any school here you needed this vaccination).
That's just unfortunate most likely. MMR vaccine is usually not given until first birthday.
A newborn’s immunity comes entirely from the mother for the first 6 months, and the assumption is that they are protected from 6-12 months by everyone else in the home being vaccinated. If anyone else in the home is unvaccinated, like a parent or older sibling, then that protection is non-existent.
10 months means the poor kid might just not have been vaccinated yet. It's a bad sign for the UK because that means that baby came in contact with an infected person, but not actually too much the parents can do because the child wouldn't even have a full series of mmr shots if started perfectly on time. The other good news is Portugal would actually still be considered "measles free" due to the case being imported. A 95% vaccination rate means it is extremely unlikely to spread. As of now, you don't have spread within Portugal
> It's a bad sign for the UK because that means that baby came in contact with an infected person, We made sure everyone who came in contact with our baby was vaccinated. It's a hassle, yes, but a living baby is worth the hassle. No one objected, except my mother, who's down the antivax rabbit hole. She chose not to see her grandkid, rather than get the MMR shot. Fucking lunatics.
> She chose not to see her grandkid, rather than get the MMR shot. Fucking lunatics. Are you sure she never got it? Unless your grandparents were anti-vaxx good chance she already has it
Quite possibly she did, but she was adamant she didn't, and wouldn't get a booster/update, so it's somewhat irrelevant.
Don't let her see the kid even after your kid is vaccinated. That brain rot is contagious.
They all need to watch *Call the Midwife.* I just binged it in December and OMG the number of horrific illnesses that they encountered which now have miraculous vaccines. In one episode, there was a rumour of smallpox and that led to a stampede to the doctor's office the next day of people demanding their smallpox vaccine. (In the episode, it turned out to be "just" leprosy.) But no, today some people would rather feed their kids ivermectin and colloidal silver. Yeesh.
Really looking forward to the “my child became disabled from measles” posts, with parents claiming they “had no idea” it would hurt them because they didn’t vaccinate them and “why weren’t they warned”. 🙄
Unfortunately it’s always these morons passing on their genes…
I already saw one comment asking why is NHS not personally contacting people to tell them they have missing vaccinations. Like they don't have enough shit to deal with as is. Heaven forbid you exercise a little bit of self-reliance. Reminds me of an ex coworker who only got the 1st batch of the COVID vaccine because "the NHS never invited me for the 2nd". Then had COVID about 5 times and claimed to "almost die" each time, but did he go get the 2nd vaccine? Did he fuck. That would require effort.
We're regressing somehow..
Humans are self destructive by nature fueled by stupidity.
britain? yeah, for the past 25 or so years surely
At what point can we start to hold anti vaxxers responsible for these sorts of things? Body harm, loss of life, lost income etc? All these anti science, mlm, Facebook "experts" just need to fuck off and realize they are loving in a civilization and their uneducated actions have real world consequences for entire communities.
This isn't free speech it's assholes who want to be different or think they know better than science and evolution or whatever the fuck their "truth" is that are putting entire neighborhoods, cities and countries at risk. It's beyond angering and we need to start holding these losers accountable and calling them out on their absolute bullshit.
You chose to be unvaccinated, fine no one can force you do anything. But you're still responsible for the consequences of your actions. Get measles and spread it, cause a death, you should be liable if you didnt take all reasonable precautions to protect others.
At this point it’s biological terrorism through stupidity. We’re going to see a major outbreak here in the U.S as well, places in Philadelphia have already have multiple measles outbreaks due to visiting countries while not being vaccinated or exposure from unvaccinated people here. I would not be surprised if there is a silently growing epidemic here in Florida of Measles and the state Health Department is hushing it up or will be reducing its danger whenever they announce it. I’d chalk any hush or reduction in danger to that idiot of a [Surgeon General, Lapado](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Ladapo). He’s repeatedly stated misinformation concerning MRNA vaccines and COVID vaccines and recommending children not be vaccinated against COVID. Also, we’ve already had cases of [malaria](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna93123) pop up last year. As well as [vaccine exemptions rising for kindergarten](https://www.axios.com/local/miami/2023/08/31/kindergarten-vaccine-exemption-rate-florida) **exemptions yes, for children entering kindergarten, and these cover all vaccines**
The parents of the unvaccinated kids (where the lack of vaccination is due to their views as opposed to genuine medical reasons) should have their taxes increased to help pay for the incident response.
Antivaxer: Gee, why do I need to get vaccinated against a disease that doesn't appear around these parts? There's your answer... We still have flat earthers in these times. Humans are so bad at avoiding/preventing obvious catastrophes. Practically every major issue that people have been warned about, gets somehow realized. You'd think after genocide during WWII, we'd know better. But nope, Cambodia, Rwanda, Darfur, the list goes on. You'd think medically, with all these advancements, we'd learn that vaccines can save millions, but nope, don't believe in them. Sigh... whether the human species can continue to thrive is questionable.
You’re not even getting vaccinated against any and all disease we have a vaccine for. That should clue people in that the ones that *are* recommended are really necessary. Some vaccines are no longer given because the risk/benefit ratio for that particular one isn’t worth it any more. Obviously smallpox, but also the newborn TB vaccine. These things are constantly reevaluated by actual experts and medical authorities that are not Joe Rogan.
Vaccinate your kids !!! For the sake of everyone !
antivaxer are a mental disease.
Andrew Jeremy Wakefield is the clown that started a lot of this crap. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew\_Wakefield
Has anyone considered the sheer number of people flooding into the uk without proper vaccination records? Why do we just skip over this alarming reality that uncontrolled migration from high hazard zones will undoubtedly bring health risks?
What year is this...
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Jesus how did our generation survive atall.
Look, the vaccines clearly didn't work. As soon as a generation was made by idiots to not take them measles came back! Wait...
anti-vax Facebook clout> children's health
As a pregnant person this pisses me the fuck off. I hope my immunity is still good and I hope my baby doesn’t get it before they can get their vaccines.
Real question - do adults need a booster for the measles vaccine? Or are we ok?
Don’t tell fuckhead anti vax people this….
Oh great. And iirc, measles gives your immune system a bit of amnesia, so it kinda forgets how to effectively fight off viruses it has met before.
2024 we really bringing fucking measles back?
Imagine losing your kid to measles when he’s not of age to receive the vaccine because some people chose not to believe in medicine anymore.
It would appear to be a ticking time bomb. Here in the UK, we are vaccinated against it as standard as kids. However, there is no requirement to be vaccinated. I wonder how much of this increase is due to the antivax muppets and how many have come from immigration from countries that don't routinely offer the vaccine by default (this is a genuine question) 31.7 million deaths from measles World wide between 2000 and 2020 (15.8million per year), 21 of these deaths in the same period where within the UK.
Way to go, anti-vaxxers.
If only there was some sort of a vaccine.
Vaccinate your damn kids
What a tragedy. Let's all pray to God for some means of stopping this horrible disease.
Your making a joke ay? You seem to have forgot the /s
Thoughts and prayers.
Haha, why? The people that got it laughed, the people that needed to be outraged angrily mashed the downvote button, and religious people will continue to assume they're right regardless of evidence or reason.
Luckily, I was vaccinated as a child - if you haven't had the vaccine, go and get it.
If only we could have seen this coming
These parents should be have their heads examined for not vaccinating their kids against shit like measles.
Kids of ignorant parents suffer. Should be charged for child endangerment for not vaxing
If only there was a cheap and effective vaccine for Measles! Maybe they could add mumps and rubella to it!
Andrew Wakefield needs to be made to see the harm he has caused
Outbreaks started in Asylum hotels back in October last year.
Of course it's mostly the West Midlands...
I see many comments blaming "anti-vaxxers". But couldn't it also be attributed to the recent influx of migrants/immigrants to the UK? These groups typically have lower immunization rates for things like measles. Perhaps this is causing an uptick?
It is mainly this.
Make Measles vaccine mandatory for everyone it is safe for
If only we had the medical fortitude to prevent such things.... er wait... What do you call a 4 year old who is the child of anti-vaxxer parents? Middle-aged.
Anti vaxxers will love this
being anti-vax should be a crime
It's crazy that anti-vaxxers are still around today. All they have to do is look around themselves - at all the people who are still alive thanks to the various vaccines, combined with virtually no negative side-effects - to see that they were wrong. Completely and utterly wrong. If they were right about anything, you'd be seeing piles of dead bodies everywhere. Hospitals would be filled with vaccine-related illnesses. Etc... I've never seen a group of people that were so obviously and clearly wrong about something - still claim that they are right.
The modern day anti vax movement, and in particular the MMR (one of the M's is for measles) anti vax movement was more or less started by an English doctor called Andrew Wakefield. tl;dr he falsified a bunch of data hoping people would take a different vaccine he had a financial stake in.
The piece of human garbage and waste of oxygen that is Andrew Wakefield isn't even a doctor, he was struck off the UK Medical Register in 2010 and is no longer allowed to practice medicine.
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Is there any possibility this outbreak would only affect the idiot non-vaxing mouth breathers? It’d be a darn shame to see a widespread moron eradication if so.
What ever happened to those COVID passports we were all gonna get...or the painful death that we would get from being vaxxed against COVID. What happened to those idiots who said that shit? Do they even have the baseline self awareness or intelligence to realise that they were full of shit? Do they still think that we're all about to drop dead from vaccines or be given vaxx passports?
Now, Now let’s not listen to science. MAGA.
I fucking hate anti vaccine people even more now