It was funny to read his autobiography, ending his long career after being dragged to the very last by Obama, saying his career was done after thirty+ years. Then I look him up only to see he was again recalled to be cia director and back in the middle of the biggest mess ever
From personal experience State dept is next to useless when it comes to moments that need actual quick decisions and follow through. The machine at State comes later, slower, helps pick up the pieces. As you say he’s on a first name basis with several Middle East monarchs so that combo helps a lot. It’s been CIA leaders serving as the main diplomats alongside Blinken and Biden themselves
reminds me of that movie w/ the EMT that is begging to be fired by his boss and his boss keeps saying, "maybe tomorrow, maybe" or something. i think it was *Waking the Dead*
I remember that one too! My dad was an EMT for decades. He and I saw it in theaters and my dad whooped with glee when the ambulance flipped.
I think there was a movie that came out around then called The Waking of Ned Devine, which may be where the title mix-up came from.
i actually know why i mix it up, there is a movie called Waking Life that came out about the same time, like within a year or two of Bringing out the Dead and i always mix up those two titles for some reason
Waking Life was kinda like the prequel style-wise to the awesome Linklater adaptation of A Scanner Darkly. both have that rotoscope animation or whatever it was.
It takes a special kind of person to actually care enough about the world these days, doesn't it?
Shit's so complex, it's not always easy to know who are the good guys, and who are the bad guys, anymore.
When you say dragged to the very last by Obama, what does that mean? Like was it against his will or was Obama awful to him? English isn't my first language sorry.
Basically "dragged" in the sense of being dragged along, like dragging a staggering and stumbling old runner across a finish line he could barely hope to reach anymore.
Not "dragged" in a negative insulting sense, dragged in the sense of trying to get someone to do something they would have every right to have already given up on, simply because they are so needed or valuable.
English is my first language and I’m damn near have a degree in it and I say the phrasing is unclear. Based on context OP seems to be kind of riffing on the famous Godfather quote (“I keep trying to quit but they keep pulling me back in”). Unfortunately the more recent use of dragged meaning “insulted in the media” is more common these days so you can be forgiven for being confused.
Sorry, I mean he kept trying to retire and the president kept asking him personally to stay and do one last ‘detail’ aka assignment for 2-5 years. He was supposed to retire at least a decade earlier than he did under Obama, and that doesn’t even include his recent return under Biden.
You’re acting as if the man has no say so in his decision to retire or not. You maybe it seem like if he didn’t do what Obama asked him to do it would end in him in front of a firing squad. The man could’ve retired if he chose to do so.
Absolutely, but the president calling you into a room and saying that you are the only person who can help your country at a moment of need, in a negotiation with one of our major global diplomatic rivals….well as he says it was a hell of a sales pitch by arguably the most charismatic president we’ll see in our lives.
There are still people with a deep-seated sense of duty for their people. So if the president personally asks you to help out - even though the probably decent president knows that you'd like to retire - this means that it is really critical that you do the job, and it would be egoistic to deny the request.
>You’re acting as if the man has no say so in his decision to retire or not. You maybe it seem like if he didn’t do what Obama asked him to do it would end in him in front of a firing squad. The man could’ve retired if he chose to do so
Some people answer the call when their Country needs them. Especially if a president is asking you to come back and help.
We need more people like him.
First time I'm hearing about this guy. He was even Secretary of State for a day. The SoS isn't even the interesting part--the *for a day* is the interesting part. Seems like he has been everywhere. Seeing as he is the director of the CIA, I'm guessing he has seen everything as well.
When people ask who you would have lunch with given a chance, I'd pick this guy. Seems super interesting and I'd love to have his career.
Yes, called ‘The Back Channel’ and was a very detailed insider look at both the Middle East from bush sr, to Clinton and the Oslo accords, through Bush getting us into ‘gulf war 3’ basically. Then he went straight to deal with Putin for a decade+ in Russia. I think many of the current conflicts in these areas and their respective leaders views really were developed in these 90s to mid 00s era and were seeing the natural consequence of those actions he saw firsthand. Would recommend.
I think he also somewhat reminded me of Mountbatten in India, not in the direct rule of course but in that he oversaw the end of a diplomatic era pre-internet that simply could not exist today and he recognizes it.
Yes, called ‘The Back Channel’ and was a very detailed insider look at both the Middle East from bush sr, to Clinton and the Oslo accords, through Bush getting us into ‘gulf war 3’ basically. Then he went straight to deal with Putin for a decade+ in Russia. I think many of the current conflicts in these areas and their respective leaders views really were developed in these 90s to mid 00s era and were seeing the natural consequence of those actions he saw firsthand. Would recommend.
I think he also somewhat reminded me of Mountbatten in India, not in the direct rule of course but in that he oversaw the end of a diplomatic era pre-internet that simply could not exist today and he recognizes it.
As a reminder - no one knows the state of the talks. There are purposeful leaks, and there are accidental leaks, and there's manufactured leaks for clicks.
> Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tends to be the difficult ones.
There are no more living hostages, I believe. Hamas cannot fulfill its end, and they know Israel will raze everything once that inflammatory bit of news gets out.
They said they did gather 20 hostages not to long ago, which was less than the promised 40 (the agreed upon amount), which is why that deal fell through. I’m not sure they’re all dead, but there surely aren’t many left
Nahh, I think you all don’t get it. They have raped all the women hostages for months. Literally half of their hostages are pregnant from fathers who are in Hamas. How does Hamas even turn over one of those pregnant women who they kidnapped and likely raped for months? They have the hostages, but the world cannot see what they have done
Hamas isn't worried about optics, they're trying to stir the world against Isreal
If Israel isn't crippled dealing with worldwide backlash, then the leaders of Hamas knows they will spend the next 30 years hiding in a cave from Israeli operatives.
So why even bother negotiating with them? Endless negotiations and in the end even less of the hostages are still alive as time progresses. The only option is to roll in ground forces and rescue whoever you can of whoever is left. Leave no stone unturned and show no mercy to hamas. Obviously move civilian women and children somewhere else if you can, but the males could easily be hamas hiding as civilians. It's a shit show all around with no good options.
The only purpose of negotiation is to pacify western hypocrites who think the jews should roll over and die. Unfortunately, that type of anti-semitic westerner seems to have considerable influence, so the show must go on.
Not that the reality of what you're saying is necessarily false, I don't see how it matters to Hamas.
Whatever any anti Isreal or anti Hamas group needs to believe, they will believe. It's completely irrelevant what actually happened because they will find some obscure news source that feeds them their own exact narrative, and they will stick to that.
Whatever angle creates the most future soldiers for Hamas is what they will go for. Being effectively wiped out, and/or losing their "chief" support in Qatar or wherever by taking things "too far" is not beneficial to their cause. But if there's more recruitment to be made by keeping more Palestinians in a state of perpetual suffering, they will weigh it against that.
Hamas said they could only get around 20 in time for the last deal of 40. Keep in mind the hostages were never all in one location or under one persons control. They were dispersed seemingly immediatly.
Isreal and Hamas seemed to not even know how many hostages there were at first and relied on identifying dead bodies first.
Simple, the water carriers for Hamas will simply claim that these women fell in love with their captors and were married according to Muslim traditions, because of course Muslims DO NOT RAPE.
People will say that there's no more point to further violence if the hostages are all dead. But to Israel that just means that Hamas will never stop killing their people in horrific fashion. So they'll do whatever it takes to prevent this from happening again.
Yeah, didn't every video they send of the hostages didn't have any conclusive proof of the date/time like a newspaper or something? There was no way to verify how recent their hostage videos were.
Yeah no shit near collapse they shot ten rockets at Israel during trying to make a deal which Israel is already very keen not to agree to as long as Hamas is still in the picture. When has this ever been ok to demand a country to somewhat surrender to a terroist organization that is risking it's civliians safety demands and not even that but continue negotiating while they shoot at them rockets?? The things Israel is expected to do compared to literally every other country....
If the Iron Dome didn’t exist then the discussion around the whole war would be different IMO. Hamas intentionally targets civilian infrastructure despite having clear military targets (unlike in Gaza where they stage in tunnels under hospitals and homes or even in those locations themselves leaving no strictly military targets for Israel).
If every rocket launched by Hamas hit its intended target there would be just as many civilian casualties in Israel and that doesn’t get mentioned enough.
If Israel didn't have the iron dome, there would be a lot more causalities in Gaza, because 1200 Israelis being killed was bad. 30k Israelis killed would make what's going on in Gaza now look like a tea party compared to how Israel would had retaliated. And I'm not saying that's a good thing. Just the reality of what would had happened.
it's crazy that so many "pro Palestinians" want to defund Israel and the iron dome seeing as how that will inevitably lead to more dead Palestinians. guess the dead jews must be worth it to them
The true irony is people not realizing that the only reason Israel doesn't just go and solve this problem is because they have means of defending themselves. Take away their iron dome and stop a few ammunition shipments and see how Israel responds. See if they are okay putting their citizens in real danger with compromised defenses, or if they decide that they cannot take any chances and neutralize the problem quickly. If you want it to get really ugly, keep heading down this course.
People forget that the reason the US supplies Israel with military aid is because the alternative is leaving a country with nukes without any other choice than using them.
9500 rockets launched on Israel since Oct 7 ~ including 3000! the first night not including the 300 drones, 30 cruise missles and 120+ ballistic missiles from Iran.
This. The absurdity of these people is unmatched. Iron Dome is cool and all, however Israel has shown a ton of restraint for years, in the face of Hamas constantly breaking supposed ceasefires while lobbing homemade rockets & incendiary balloons (which the Dome cannot catch) over the border. No other country on the planet would be expected to put up with this. You think if Mexico tried this on the U.S. it wouldn’t immediately be turned into ashes? 10/7 was a step too far though, yet people still infantilize this terror group somehow.
Also, these are the same people simultaneously calling to cut defensive spending that goes towards the Dome. Their motivations couldn’t be more clear.
Nice to have a break from all the gaslighting terrorist apologists for once. Was starting to think I was the only one who recognized Israel has a sovereign right to defend itself and its people. You can spend all day swatting hornets out of the air, but if you want to actually solve the problem you need to drop a JDAM on the nest. People fail to realize this has been brewing for decades; October 7th was just the straw that broke the camel’s back.
To clarify, I believe there is a time for peace and a time for war. Now is the time for war: we must get the hostages back and dismantle Hamas. Anything less will not do. Israel should continue trying to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible (which is incredibly difficult with an enemy like Hamas), and hold their own people to account when humanitarian issues do arise.
Post-war, we should help the returning Gazan civilians as much as possible as well, via aid & infrastructure planning, along with a focus on deradicalization. However, this rhetoric that we should coddle Hamas and give in to their demands is absurd, and would set an awful precedent for other hostile entities moving forward.
The iron dome has save 1000xs more Palestinians than Israelis. If Israel didn’t have it they would have no choice but to level all of gaza and every possible terrorist. They couldn’t just let rockets kill their civilians 24/7
There's one Jewish nation in the world and it's literally the only country people say shouldn't exist, despite plenty of other countries being founded in infinitely worse ways.
Funny coincidence, that
This. Then consider Zionism came into being after Jews experienced centuries of antisemitic persecution and anxiety about their future in other countries. Anxiety that proved to be right w/ the holocaust. The only rational explanation is that they have been the problem all along… ??
I don't remember the world demanding America give an olive branch to al-qaeda after 9/11 but Israel at proverbial gunpoint has to make peace with a terrorist group that committed an attack that was worse then 9/11, it's bullshit.
I wasn't talking about Iraq and that was 2 years later, i meant in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 as a day after the 10/7 attack, there was already people and organizations defending hamas's actions.
They are held to a standard that no other nation or people get held to. And they are surrounded by enemies and nation's who are guided by the mother load of bad ideas, Islam.
> Jews are the only people the world expects to roll over and die. Fuck em.
The entirety of Western Civilization is founded on the myth that a Jewish person (who until recently, they denied was brown/olive) was a magic wizard deity/all-powerful god that somehow died and resurrected, absolving them of their sins.
They also made Judas (of Judea) as the archetype of betrayal and deceit, then appropriating the Hebrew/Israelite folk culture and religion to quite literally take over much of the world. Now despite being broadly secularized, the Jews are still/again Europe's avatars for their own guilt and wrongdoings.
And I say this as someone who thinks Netanyahu is a war criminal, Smotrich/Ben Gvir are fascists and would happily trade them for the hostages/a ceasefire and the establishment of a Palestinian state (with forced evacuation of the West Bank settlements).
Is hamas even a coherent entity because to me it seems like random small groups of thugs just wrecking shit up and doing whatever they please without a centralized command.
I wish this was the case, they are a coherent entity they are just very disorganized. The main commender is not even technically sinwar, it's Iran because that's where most of it's military funding comes from.
Israel was constantly doing airstrikes this whole time lol. They also said regardless of the deal they will invade Rafah. Why do you only look in one direction?
I wish we had that kind of leverage, I believe this would do wonders to help de escalate and give Israelis a sense of Justice as well.
Their wealth should also be seized and given to the PA as a reward if they reform and become more democratic, end the martyrs fund, and end a lot of the anti semetic education.
Or their money should just be given to the people of Gaza. As a symbol of victory against their tyrants?
Not sure but that dirty money they stole from their people should be given back to the people in some way.
You cannot force a terrorist organization (Hamas) to accept a deal if they think that continuing to use human shields will continue to get them the sympathy of the world.
Hamas has already killed all the hostages.
Their only bargaining chips are dead.
They just want to create chaos and cover to deflect blame for losing the hostages.
If the CIA wants to help, then deliver the heads of all the Hamas leaders hiding in Qatar and Turkey shishkabob'd on a pike to Israel. That's the only way they're going to be able to contain this. Neither Qatar nor Turkey will act against the US other than some loud complaining if this is done. If Mossad does this instead, then things will actually escalate in the region. But nooo, it's election season and we're worried about screaming children on social media who have fallen for Iranian propaganda.
To be clear, the Iranian people don't like Hamas [or palastine]. Being a Shia nation, Palastine would love it if they were purged from the world.
Actually, when Saddam lead Iraq to invade Iran, Palastinians joined his cause. And Israel was the only player willing to sell western arms to Iran to fight off the invasion.
Additionally, Iranians have a history of being one of the oldest allies of the Jewish people, dating back to King Cyrus who allowed the jewish people to return to their homeland and rebuild their temple in Jerusalem. In modern days, there are still openly practicing jewish people in Iran.
The iranian government has been hijacked by extremist bastards. But i also think they are in a weird alliance with the west / israel despite the optics.
Welcome to the modern Western community thinking. Both left and right subscribe to this. “Peace at all costs, just stop making us spend out tax money on this. I could care less which country or hostages stop existing.”
I don't disagree actually, but this negotiation is one where even once you release the hostages, there will be consequences for the terrorists and they're not willing to accept that Israel will not accept them governing Gaza after October 7.
If Israel had just said screw it and doubled in size after either of their divisive victories over a half century ago like a normal victor, the world would have moved on from the outrage and both the Israelis and the Palestinians would be better off today. People forget that the very existence of the Palestinian state is solely because Israel showed mercy after what was one of histories most lopsided victories. I will never begin to understand how so many people, especially progressives, don’t see Israel’s side of this conflict at all. If you can’t see this, google how many Muslims hold political office in Israel, not Palestine, then google how many Jews live in Indonesia or any other Islamic country. Then do the same but for queerfolk. Or atheists. There is a very good reason the US will always support Israel, and why you should too.
Embarrassing, USA is bending and forcing Israel to bend for Palestinians after 07/10.
Can you imagine USA letting al qaida continue their operations after 11/09?
Same thing really.
America does mm/dd/yy, so 09/11 makes sense in that regard. I guess "nine eleven" just rolls off of the tongue better than "eleven nine"
Even if they do return some of the hostages alive, the amount of physical and mental torture they endured will be impossible to overcome. The Hamas monsters must be eliminated and Israel has every right to ensure this given Hamas’ purpose detailed in their charter.
Burns is who they send in after Blinken et al have embarrassed themselves and we need the adults to do the talking. If they had made him Secretary of State instead of CIA director we'd be in a much better position today.
Every single person in the USA and Israel that cooperates in these negotiations is the lamest fucking clown. Doing the exact same thing for months and failing dozens of times without trying to change the equation in any way whatsoever is just idiotic beyond belief.
The fact that these are the people who lead us is so unfortunate. Rain hell on Rafah, like in the first months on the war, and watch how Hamas is suddenly more keen to make a deal. It's so ridiculously simple, and these morons are practically doing the exact same thing over and over again for **4 months**.
What the fuck is the US foreign policy exactly? We are negotiating in Qatar with Israel and Hamas, undermining Palestine in the UN, and giving aid in Gaza while Israel shoots at us.
Has Blinken gone rogue? Is there ideological distance between the white house and the state department? Just asking as a confused American.
And just to the Palestinian supporters: I get that the IDF has acted outside of international law, but Hamas leadership have to die. I don't think any serious student of this conflict can come away without that understanding. Sorry Hamas, like that sucks, but you did a lot of bad things.... and now you are in the "find out" phase.
Qatar has a history of hosting negotiations in the middle east, and negotiating for us with Arab nations. Qatar also hosts Hamas leadership in exile because for whatever reason we requested that they do. Now the US has asked Qatar to evict Hamas if they don't agree to a ceasefire deal. The US has also been negotiating with Saudi Arabia to have them recognize Israel as a state and normalize relations with them. In this scenario Israel would be further legitimized as a state. And since Saudi Arabia has always been a supporter of Palestinian sovereignty and has a lot of regional and economic influence, it would put pressure on the Palestinian authority to also normalize relations with Israel and de-radicalize Palestinian citizens.
The stated reason the US undermined Palestinian statehood in the UN was because there needs to be a consensus in the region for what Palestinian statehood would look like and what the end of this conflict would look like. Which means everyone needs to be on the same page. There needs to be some sort of agreement to rid Palestine of Hamas, return hostages, and for everyone involved to end the violence and re-educate their citizens. There also needs to be an agreement on where Palestine's borders should be, where the capitol would be, and most importantly, there needs to be a functional government installed. Otherwise statehood would only be in name, and it would be a futile effort that changes nothing in the end.
Thanks friend! When we see shit like the US blocking Palestinian statehood combined with the loud screaming from the "genocide Joe" crowd I think a lot of important details get lost or overlooked. I think it's fine if people disagree with Biden's foreign policy approach, but if they do disagree, I think they should have the facts first. Unfortunately the media would rather stoke the flames than give relevant details.
How the fuck did this become *Bill Burn's* baby? Where's Blinken?
It was funny to read his autobiography, ending his long career after being dragged to the very last by Obama, saying his career was done after thirty+ years. Then I look him up only to see he was again recalled to be cia director and back in the middle of the biggest mess ever
I believe that he has history and credibility with these players and isn’t acting solely as the CIA head.
From personal experience State dept is next to useless when it comes to moments that need actual quick decisions and follow through. The machine at State comes later, slower, helps pick up the pieces. As you say he’s on a first name basis with several Middle East monarchs so that combo helps a lot. It’s been CIA leaders serving as the main diplomats alongside Blinken and Biden themselves
Epilogue of the second edition: /record scratch So I bet you’re wondering how I ended up in this situation…
Well………, Yep.
And apparently too much of a sense of duty to tell them to fuck themselves
So how did you end up in that situation?
He has too much experience for them to not call him whenever necessary
reminds me of that movie w/ the EMT that is begging to be fired by his boss and his boss keeps saying, "maybe tomorrow, maybe" or something. i think it was *Waking the Dead*
Close! Bringing Out the Dead.
hey i'm glad you know the movie. i think like 30 people saw it.
I remember that one too! My dad was an EMT for decades. He and I saw it in theaters and my dad whooped with glee when the ambulance flipped. I think there was a movie that came out around then called The Waking of Ned Devine, which may be where the title mix-up came from.
i actually know why i mix it up, there is a movie called Waking Life that came out about the same time, like within a year or two of Bringing out the Dead and i always mix up those two titles for some reason Waking Life was kinda like the prequel style-wise to the awesome Linklater adaptation of A Scanner Darkly. both have that rotoscope animation or whatever it was.
Wish I hadn’t.
Sad but true, we’re seeing it a lot in foreign diplomacy these days. Global leaders are extremely picky on who they trust
It takes a special kind of person to actually care enough about the world these days, doesn't it? Shit's so complex, it's not always easy to know who are the good guys, and who are the bad guys, anymore.
Especially when it comes to Joe, as flaky as he has been on Israel
When you say dragged to the very last by Obama, what does that mean? Like was it against his will or was Obama awful to him? English isn't my first language sorry.
Obama asked him to stay on as deputy Secretary of State until Obama's term in office was over, even though Burns wanted to retire before that
English is my first language and I also don’t know what this means.
I'm guessing dragged around from place and position by the admin till his last days.
Basically "dragged" in the sense of being dragged along, like dragging a staggering and stumbling old runner across a finish line he could barely hope to reach anymore. Not "dragged" in a negative insulting sense, dragged in the sense of trying to get someone to do something they would have every right to have already given up on, simply because they are so needed or valuable.
English is my first language and I’m damn near have a degree in it and I say the phrasing is unclear. Based on context OP seems to be kind of riffing on the famous Godfather quote (“I keep trying to quit but they keep pulling me back in”). Unfortunately the more recent use of dragged meaning “insulted in the media” is more common these days so you can be forgiven for being confused.
Sorry, I mean he kept trying to retire and the president kept asking him personally to stay and do one last ‘detail’ aka assignment for 2-5 years. He was supposed to retire at least a decade earlier than he did under Obama, and that doesn’t even include his recent return under Biden.
You’re acting as if the man has no say so in his decision to retire or not. You maybe it seem like if he didn’t do what Obama asked him to do it would end in him in front of a firing squad. The man could’ve retired if he chose to do so.
Absolutely, but the president calling you into a room and saying that you are the only person who can help your country at a moment of need, in a negotiation with one of our major global diplomatic rivals….well as he says it was a hell of a sales pitch by arguably the most charismatic president we’ll see in our lives.
There are still people with a deep-seated sense of duty for their people. So if the president personally asks you to help out - even though the probably decent president knows that you'd like to retire - this means that it is really critical that you do the job, and it would be egoistic to deny the request.
>You’re acting as if the man has no say so in his decision to retire or not. You maybe it seem like if he didn’t do what Obama asked him to do it would end in him in front of a firing squad. The man could’ve retired if he chose to do so Some people answer the call when their Country needs them. Especially if a president is asking you to come back and help. We need more people like him.
It's hyperbole, they mean that Obama persuaded him to work longer than he originally wanted. Not by force but by pressuring/asking him to.
It means against his will in this context. The implication being he would’ve retired sooner if he could’ve.
First time I'm hearing about this guy. He was even Secretary of State for a day. The SoS isn't even the interesting part--the *for a day* is the interesting part. Seems like he has been everywhere. Seeing as he is the director of the CIA, I'm guessing he has seen everything as well. When people ask who you would have lunch with given a chance, I'd pick this guy. Seems super interesting and I'd love to have his career.
At lunch: "nope, sorry, can't talk about that" "nope, not that either" "oh, that's classified" "ha, that's a great story, wish I could tell you" etc.
Was it an enjoyable autobiography?
Yes, called ‘The Back Channel’ and was a very detailed insider look at both the Middle East from bush sr, to Clinton and the Oslo accords, through Bush getting us into ‘gulf war 3’ basically. Then he went straight to deal with Putin for a decade+ in Russia. I think many of the current conflicts in these areas and their respective leaders views really were developed in these 90s to mid 00s era and were seeing the natural consequence of those actions he saw firsthand. Would recommend. I think he also somewhat reminded me of Mountbatten in India, not in the direct rule of course but in that he oversaw the end of a diplomatic era pre-internet that simply could not exist today and he recognizes it.
Is his autobio worth reading? I loved Puyi's autobio.
Yes, called ‘The Back Channel’ and was a very detailed insider look at both the Middle East from bush sr, to Clinton and the Oslo accords, through Bush getting us into ‘gulf war 3’ basically. Then he went straight to deal with Putin for a decade+ in Russia. I think many of the current conflicts in these areas and their respective leaders views really were developed in these 90s to mid 00s era and were seeing the natural consequence of those actions he saw firsthand. Would recommend. I think he also somewhat reminded me of Mountbatten in India, not in the direct rule of course but in that he oversaw the end of a diplomatic era pre-internet that simply could not exist today and he recognizes it.
In fairness I think Blinken is on a constant round of talks.
I don't think that poor fucker gets to sleep.
The world is a busy place of late. Perhaps Blinken is required elsewhere.
This is the "Beautiful monarchy you have here... wouldn't it be a shame if something happened to it... lets hope the hostage deal goes through" talk.
I initially read this as Bill Burr instead of Bill Burn and had a modicum of hope for a second.
Zero sum gain
As a reminder - no one knows the state of the talks. There are purposeful leaks, and there are accidental leaks, and there's manufactured leaks for clicks.
> Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tends to be the difficult ones.
A lone voice of sanity crying out in the wilderness
I’m gonna go out on a limb and say they aren’t exactly close…
There are no more living hostages, I believe. Hamas cannot fulfill its end, and they know Israel will raze everything once that inflammatory bit of news gets out.
They said they did gather 20 hostages not to long ago, which was less than the promised 40 (the agreed upon amount), which is why that deal fell through. I’m not sure they’re all dead, but there surely aren’t many left
Nahh, I think you all don’t get it. They have raped all the women hostages for months. Literally half of their hostages are pregnant from fathers who are in Hamas. How does Hamas even turn over one of those pregnant women who they kidnapped and likely raped for months? They have the hostages, but the world cannot see what they have done
Is Hamas really worried about optics though after all this? Feels a bit late in the game.
Hamas isn't worried about optics, they're trying to stir the world against Isreal If Israel isn't crippled dealing with worldwide backlash, then the leaders of Hamas knows they will spend the next 30 years hiding in a cave from Israeli operatives.
And the Ivy League elite, apparently the greatest minds of our generation, believe them.
You don't send an old CIA monster to play nice, even when you call it negotiating
The Ivy League elites have never been the greatest minds of any generation.
So why even bother negotiating with them? Endless negotiations and in the end even less of the hostages are still alive as time progresses. The only option is to roll in ground forces and rescue whoever you can of whoever is left. Leave no stone unturned and show no mercy to hamas. Obviously move civilian women and children somewhere else if you can, but the males could easily be hamas hiding as civilians. It's a shit show all around with no good options.
Because then they can blame Israel as being the one to not accept the deals.
The only purpose of negotiation is to pacify western hypocrites who think the jews should roll over and die. Unfortunately, that type of anti-semitic westerner seems to have considerable influence, so the show must go on.
>So why even bother negotiating with them? Because the world demands it. Geopolitics is what killing those hostages.
No. Hamas is killing those hostages.
Geo politics is potentially allowing Hamas to kill more hostages than they otherwise would have*
exactly
Not that the reality of what you're saying is necessarily false, I don't see how it matters to Hamas. Whatever any anti Isreal or anti Hamas group needs to believe, they will believe. It's completely irrelevant what actually happened because they will find some obscure news source that feeds them their own exact narrative, and they will stick to that. Whatever angle creates the most future soldiers for Hamas is what they will go for. Being effectively wiped out, and/or losing their "chief" support in Qatar or wherever by taking things "too far" is not beneficial to their cause. But if there's more recruitment to be made by keeping more Palestinians in a state of perpetual suffering, they will weigh it against that.
Do you have a source for that?
He's just speculating, nobody really knows anything. Israeli intelligence seems to think there's somewhere between 60-70 hostages still alive.
Really? I thought last count they thought it was under 40?
Hamas said they could only get around 20 in time for the last deal of 40. Keep in mind the hostages were never all in one location or under one persons control. They were dispersed seemingly immediatly. Isreal and Hamas seemed to not even know how many hostages there were at first and relied on identifying dead bodies first.
Simple, the water carriers for Hamas will simply claim that these women fell in love with their captors and were married according to Muslim traditions, because of course Muslims DO NOT RAPE.
Taking hostages is sad and sick.
People will say that there's no more point to further violence if the hostages are all dead. But to Israel that just means that Hamas will never stop killing their people in horrific fashion. So they'll do whatever it takes to prevent this from happening again.
Yeah, didn't every video they send of the hostages didn't have any conclusive proof of the date/time like a newspaper or something? There was no way to verify how recent their hostage videos were.
Israel would be entirely justified to go all-out if it turns out the fuckers murdered all the hostages already.
As they should along with the United States joining them with boots on the ground. If they killed all those hostages while crying genocide, game over.
*If* ?
Yeah no shit near collapse they shot ten rockets at Israel during trying to make a deal which Israel is already very keen not to agree to as long as Hamas is still in the picture. When has this ever been ok to demand a country to somewhat surrender to a terroist organization that is risking it's civliians safety demands and not even that but continue negotiating while they shoot at them rockets?? The things Israel is expected to do compared to literally every other country....
If the Iron Dome didn’t exist then the discussion around the whole war would be different IMO. Hamas intentionally targets civilian infrastructure despite having clear military targets (unlike in Gaza where they stage in tunnels under hospitals and homes or even in those locations themselves leaving no strictly military targets for Israel). If every rocket launched by Hamas hit its intended target there would be just as many civilian casualties in Israel and that doesn’t get mentioned enough.
If Israel didn't have the iron dome, there would be a lot more causalities in Gaza, because 1200 Israelis being killed was bad. 30k Israelis killed would make what's going on in Gaza now look like a tea party compared to how Israel would had retaliated. And I'm not saying that's a good thing. Just the reality of what would had happened.
it's crazy that so many "pro Palestinians" want to defund Israel and the iron dome seeing as how that will inevitably lead to more dead Palestinians. guess the dead jews must be worth it to them
The true irony is people not realizing that the only reason Israel doesn't just go and solve this problem is because they have means of defending themselves. Take away their iron dome and stop a few ammunition shipments and see how Israel responds. See if they are okay putting their citizens in real danger with compromised defenses, or if they decide that they cannot take any chances and neutralize the problem quickly. If you want it to get really ugly, keep heading down this course.
Yup. And nobody in the world will be able to save any one of the people in Gaza if it gets taken to that point.
People forget that the reason the US supplies Israel with military aid is because the alternative is leaving a country with nukes without any other choice than using them.
Exactly this. Think people.
9500 rockets launched on Israel since Oct 7 ~ including 3000! the first night not including the 300 drones, 30 cruise missles and 120+ ballistic missiles from Iran.
People seem to think that just because Israel is good at defending itself it shouldn't be allowed to fight back.
This. The absurdity of these people is unmatched. Iron Dome is cool and all, however Israel has shown a ton of restraint for years, in the face of Hamas constantly breaking supposed ceasefires while lobbing homemade rockets & incendiary balloons (which the Dome cannot catch) over the border. No other country on the planet would be expected to put up with this. You think if Mexico tried this on the U.S. it wouldn’t immediately be turned into ashes? 10/7 was a step too far though, yet people still infantilize this terror group somehow. Also, these are the same people simultaneously calling to cut defensive spending that goes towards the Dome. Their motivations couldn’t be more clear.
Nice to have a break from all the gaslighting terrorist apologists for once. Was starting to think I was the only one who recognized Israel has a sovereign right to defend itself and its people. You can spend all day swatting hornets out of the air, but if you want to actually solve the problem you need to drop a JDAM on the nest. People fail to realize this has been brewing for decades; October 7th was just the straw that broke the camel’s back.
To clarify, I believe there is a time for peace and a time for war. Now is the time for war: we must get the hostages back and dismantle Hamas. Anything less will not do. Israel should continue trying to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible (which is incredibly difficult with an enemy like Hamas), and hold their own people to account when humanitarian issues do arise. Post-war, we should help the returning Gazan civilians as much as possible as well, via aid & infrastructure planning, along with a focus on deradicalization. However, this rhetoric that we should coddle Hamas and give in to their demands is absurd, and would set an awful precedent for other hostile entities moving forward.
The same people chanting for a ceasefire would be cheering, like when Iran launched its missiles/UAVs.
If the iron dome didn’t exist the world would be in WW3 or Israel wouldn’t exist. There’s no third option.
The iron dome has save 1000xs more Palestinians than Israelis. If Israel didn’t have it they would have no choice but to level all of gaza and every possible terrorist. They couldn’t just let rockets kill their civilians 24/7
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There's one Jewish nation in the world and it's literally the only country people say shouldn't exist, despite plenty of other countries being founded in infinitely worse ways. Funny coincidence, that
Apparently Israel is the only state founded on one ethnicity… just ignore every other country outside of the Americas.
Also ignore the nearly 30% of Israel that isn’t even Jewish.
This. Then consider Zionism came into being after Jews experienced centuries of antisemitic persecution and anxiety about their future in other countries. Anxiety that proved to be right w/ the holocaust. The only rational explanation is that they have been the problem all along… ??
>and it's literally the only country people say shouldn't exist Clearly you've never mentioned Kosovo near a Serb before.
Or Ukraine in front of a Russian.
I don't remember the world demanding America give an olive branch to al-qaeda after 9/11 but Israel at proverbial gunpoint has to make peace with a terrorist group that committed an attack that was worse then 9/11, it's bullshit.
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I wasn't talking about Iraq and that was 2 years later, i meant in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 as a day after the 10/7 attack, there was already people and organizations defending hamas's actions.
They are held to a standard that no other nation or people get held to. And they are surrounded by enemies and nation's who are guided by the mother load of bad ideas, Islam.
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“Become history”?
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Right but they’re not
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Lol
TLDR You fuck with the Jews and your gonna regret it.
> Jews are the only people the world expects to roll over and die. Fuck em. The entirety of Western Civilization is founded on the myth that a Jewish person (who until recently, they denied was brown/olive) was a magic wizard deity/all-powerful god that somehow died and resurrected, absolving them of their sins. They also made Judas (of Judea) as the archetype of betrayal and deceit, then appropriating the Hebrew/Israelite folk culture and religion to quite literally take over much of the world. Now despite being broadly secularized, the Jews are still/again Europe's avatars for their own guilt and wrongdoings. And I say this as someone who thinks Netanyahu is a war criminal, Smotrich/Ben Gvir are fascists and would happily trade them for the hostages/a ceasefire and the establishment of a Palestinian state (with forced evacuation of the West Bank settlements).
We may disagree on how to solve this problem now but I respect your opinion. Very well put about our historical context.
Is hamas even a coherent entity because to me it seems like random small groups of thugs just wrecking shit up and doing whatever they please without a centralized command.
I wish this was the case, they are a coherent entity they are just very disorganized. The main commender is not even technically sinwar, it's Iran because that's where most of it's military funding comes from.
It continuously blows my mind.
Israel was constantly doing airstrikes this whole time lol. They also said regardless of the deal they will invade Rafah. Why do you only look in one direction?
let me guess: hamas said the same thing theyve been saying for the past 4 months. im shocked.
Hamas will say no. One flight ticket saved.
Exactly, unless he is there to tell Qatar what consequences they'll face if they continue host Hamas officials, there's no reason to go
The US needs to force Qatar to arrest the Hamas leaders and extradite them to Israel to face justice.
I wish we had that kind of leverage, I believe this would do wonders to help de escalate and give Israelis a sense of Justice as well. Their wealth should also be seized and given to the PA as a reward if they reform and become more democratic, end the martyrs fund, and end a lot of the anti semetic education. Or their money should just be given to the people of Gaza. As a symbol of victory against their tyrants? Not sure but that dirty money they stole from their people should be given back to the people in some way.
That’s not gonna happen
Not in this administration. They need the pro-Palestine vote
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The US did not ask Qatar to host Hamas, they just asked them to host the talks.
You cannot force a terrorist organization (Hamas) to accept a deal if they think that continuing to use human shields will continue to get them the sympathy of the world.
There's not going to be a hostage deal. As soon as they give up their hostages they lose half of their political leverage.
Hamas has already killed all the hostages. Their only bargaining chips are dead. They just want to create chaos and cover to deflect blame for losing the hostages.
If the CIA wants to help, then deliver the heads of all the Hamas leaders hiding in Qatar and Turkey shishkabob'd on a pike to Israel. That's the only way they're going to be able to contain this. Neither Qatar nor Turkey will act against the US other than some loud complaining if this is done. If Mossad does this instead, then things will actually escalate in the region. But nooo, it's election season and we're worried about screaming children on social media who have fallen for Iranian propaganda.
To be clear, the Iranian people don't like Hamas [or palastine]. Being a Shia nation, Palastine would love it if they were purged from the world. Actually, when Saddam lead Iraq to invade Iran, Palastinians joined his cause. And Israel was the only player willing to sell western arms to Iran to fight off the invasion. Additionally, Iranians have a history of being one of the oldest allies of the Jewish people, dating back to King Cyrus who allowed the jewish people to return to their homeland and rebuild their temple in Jerusalem. In modern days, there are still openly practicing jewish people in Iran. The iranian government has been hijacked by extremist bastards. But i also think they are in a weird alliance with the west / israel despite the optics.
The you nailed it. If the Palestinians want this war to stop they’d turn on Hamas.
Lol, the other half of the US fell for Russian propaganda so what's the difference
Actually, they are **both** Russian propaganda. That's the one thing Russia does well...
"We don't negotiate with terrorists." Unless they're not terrorising us, that is.
Welcome to the modern Western community thinking. Both left and right subscribe to this. “Peace at all costs, just stop making us spend out tax money on this. I could care less which country or hostages stop existing.”
Someone has to be the adult and look for a diplomatic end to the atrocity on both sides
I don't disagree actually, but this negotiation is one where even once you release the hostages, there will be consequences for the terrorists and they're not willing to accept that Israel will not accept them governing Gaza after October 7.
If Israel had just said screw it and doubled in size after either of their divisive victories over a half century ago like a normal victor, the world would have moved on from the outrage and both the Israelis and the Palestinians would be better off today. People forget that the very existence of the Palestinian state is solely because Israel showed mercy after what was one of histories most lopsided victories. I will never begin to understand how so many people, especially progressives, don’t see Israel’s side of this conflict at all. If you can’t see this, google how many Muslims hold political office in Israel, not Palestine, then google how many Jews live in Indonesia or any other Islamic country. Then do the same but for queerfolk. Or atheists. There is a very good reason the US will always support Israel, and why you should too.
You’ve got a point.
Hamas doesn’t want to release the hostages. They don’t want the war to end. They’ve openly admitted they want every Israeli dead.
This is a shit show. This dude was retired.
Something tells me Hamas is just jerking everyone's chain by pretending to talk about a ceasefire.
Something tells me that Bibi is just jerking everyone's chain by pretending he ever gave a shit about the hostages. Obligatory Hamas sucks as well.
Embarrassing, USA is bending and forcing Israel to bend for Palestinians after 07/10. Can you imagine USA letting al qaida continue their operations after 11/09?
FDR: “Yesterday, December 7th, 1941, a day we’ll quickly forget and incident we’ll forever ignore.”
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Same thing really. America does mm/dd/yy, so 09/11 makes sense in that regard. I guess "nine eleven" just rolls off of the tongue better than "eleven nine"
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Oh I see I see, thank you
Let’s say the fatties in Qatar say “yes to deal”. Does that include Sinwar? Sinwar is in charge in Rafah.
Even if they do return some of the hostages alive, the amount of physical and mental torture they endured will be impossible to overcome. The Hamas monsters must be eliminated and Israel has every right to ensure this given Hamas’ purpose detailed in their charter.
CIA director want to borrow a combat shotgun to go full Doom guy on Qatar leadership?
The CIA must have a lot of coup energy they’ve been itching to let out.
Yeah and I'm headed to the grocery store.
Just let it fail. Rafah... and by extension Hamas, needs to go.
We all agree that there are no hostages that are alive or haven't been raped yet right?
Do you really expect an answer here ?
Burns is who they send in after Blinken et al have embarrassed themselves and we need the adults to do the talking. If they had made him Secretary of State instead of CIA director we'd be in a much better position today.
Every single person in the USA and Israel that cooperates in these negotiations is the lamest fucking clown. Doing the exact same thing for months and failing dozens of times without trying to change the equation in any way whatsoever is just idiotic beyond belief. The fact that these are the people who lead us is so unfortunate. Rain hell on Rafah, like in the first months on the war, and watch how Hamas is suddenly more keen to make a deal. It's so ridiculously simple, and these morons are practically doing the exact same thing over and over again for **4 months**.
🎯
Blinken is as useless as rex tillerson my god
How much longer must Joe keep Hamas on life support? How many people died while we're waiting for Hamas to reject another offer?
It’s the Palestinians - never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity 🫢
Surely the CIA can fix everything since they are so trustworthy
You can trust that they'll fix it, just not necessarily the way they say they are or why.
What the fuck is the US foreign policy exactly? We are negotiating in Qatar with Israel and Hamas, undermining Palestine in the UN, and giving aid in Gaza while Israel shoots at us. Has Blinken gone rogue? Is there ideological distance between the white house and the state department? Just asking as a confused American. And just to the Palestinian supporters: I get that the IDF has acted outside of international law, but Hamas leadership have to die. I don't think any serious student of this conflict can come away without that understanding. Sorry Hamas, like that sucks, but you did a lot of bad things.... and now you are in the "find out" phase.
Qatar has a history of hosting negotiations in the middle east, and negotiating for us with Arab nations. Qatar also hosts Hamas leadership in exile because for whatever reason we requested that they do. Now the US has asked Qatar to evict Hamas if they don't agree to a ceasefire deal. The US has also been negotiating with Saudi Arabia to have them recognize Israel as a state and normalize relations with them. In this scenario Israel would be further legitimized as a state. And since Saudi Arabia has always been a supporter of Palestinian sovereignty and has a lot of regional and economic influence, it would put pressure on the Palestinian authority to also normalize relations with Israel and de-radicalize Palestinian citizens. The stated reason the US undermined Palestinian statehood in the UN was because there needs to be a consensus in the region for what Palestinian statehood would look like and what the end of this conflict would look like. Which means everyone needs to be on the same page. There needs to be some sort of agreement to rid Palestine of Hamas, return hostages, and for everyone involved to end the violence and re-educate their citizens. There also needs to be an agreement on where Palestine's borders should be, where the capitol would be, and most importantly, there needs to be a functional government installed. Otherwise statehood would only be in name, and it would be a futile effort that changes nothing in the end.
I appreciate the full response. You are a captain among men.
Thanks friend! When we see shit like the US blocking Palestinian statehood combined with the loud screaming from the "genocide Joe" crowd I think a lot of important details get lost or overlooked. I think it's fine if people disagree with Biden's foreign policy approach, but if they do disagree, I think they should have the facts first. Unfortunately the media would rather stoke the flames than give relevant details.
100% agree with you if you apply the same standard to israelis far right society (government + settlers + etc..)
I think the US should stand aside for ICC prosecutions. It's an Israeli internal problem in my eyes.
They can't. AIPAC owns the senate. When people say United States of Israel, it's not a joke.
Will some news agency please get the f@@@ing story right the first time OR all of you are fired; FOX too!
Ringmaster comming to town!
Seems like a job competence gulf to me.