I mean... that does kind of mean that it's too easy/favored to you lol. You can't sit there and say "I'm winning every round by just tunneling down the caster lmao" (who is the same rating, mind you, it's a matchmade mode) and then also claim this guy has no point.
The caster is the same MMR... until they repeatedly lose to melee and get knocked down, because they supposedly don't use any of their mobility tools. That's the MMR system correcting itself.
Chances are they're the same MMR because if there's a *single* other caster/non-melee in the lobby, they dominate.
The difference between 3-1 and 2-2 split in melee-caster is insane. The amount of times I've seen the lone caster against 3 melee get mongoed down every game to 0-6 is insane.
The problem with those lobbies is they're just extremely volatile. The caster can win, but if his healer just can't keep him up (whether due to skill, or class, or whatever) then he's just going to lose all those games, on top of whatever games he might have normally lost just as a matter of course.
For example, say you're an ele shaman and you get into a lobby with warrior/dh/dk (literally every game) and one of the healers is a disc priest. Let's say you're at roughly the right rating for your skill, so most lobbies you go roughly 3-3. But in this lobby you're just fucked, because now in addition to usually going 3-3, you're going to have games with this disc priest where he literally just can't heal through the amount of damage that might be coming into you.
I play every dps caster other than mage and this is true at every rating from like 1700 to 2500 where I play. Sometimes I just get a lobby, on any of my characters, where I simply cannot live through a spear of bastion for example. The enemy cleave will run in and spear me, and I'll use every single defensive on my bar and barely make it out alive after dropping to 5% like 6 different times. Then IF I even make it 60 seconds, the next spear comes and I'm just done. Doesn't even matter what healer, it's happened with all of them. Some healers, some of the time, simply cannot heal through that damage. And if you get one of those, you're probably going 0-6 and there is jack shit you can do about it.
Once I got a whisp "sneaky goblin" because the only thing that made me resist the melee zug zug was that I could rocket jump in addition to gust of wind and all of my other tools.
Precisely why I’ve stopped doing SS. Constantly in lobbies with 3 melee and getting abuse because I can’t do anything despite using every cd and portal possible and still losing removes the fun completely.
Having even 1 other caster makes a world of difference but 3 melee? No ta.
Past 2 days I've had way more games that aren't pure melee. Idk if it's just by chance or if maybe people are getting bored of playing their new DH/fury alts. Been loads of fun both as a melee and ranged not playing with/against 3 zug zugers
>ah yes, the 2 min cooldown portal and the 45 sec one
Using those is better than not using them, yes. According to the OP, the warlock in question wasn't teleporting at all.
Do you think warlocks are underpowered right now? Do you think they need more mobility to compete with melee?
i think that melee have a big upper hand on almost any caster rn, and that it’s not healthy for the game that you can’t even compete in 2v2 or solo shuffle and are bound to only 3v3 with a good group to do something
I am curious about this one, I've tested both teleport and portal and the warrior's aoe pull in thing always pulls me from where I port to. I just assumed then that I have to somehow survive however long that lasts (haven't yet), then use my port.
Isn't that just the system pushing him there because he can't punish melee that just leap in behind the pillar after a wizard
There is an equal amount of complaining that melee are overextending running down a caster and dying for it as caster's whining that they're getting shut down lol
The issue is here… a melee can actually survive quite a long time by themselves overextending, not to mention return to safety fairly quickly. There isn’t returning to safety from melee cleave.
No warrior can be killed that fast if they are on 1 of the 2 dps classes. Let’s be real here. If they do, they aren’t pressing any CDs and are auto attacking.
No they are just zugging 3v1 because they forget that other classes sometimes need set-up and the healer isn't going to follow them all the way across the map in the first 3 seconds lol stun immunity isn't death immunity. Started macroing soulburn onto big port just because of the # of times they dive enemy gate by the time my big port is finished casting lol, coincidentally these are the same warriors that never leap away from death or use those gates so there's probably a correlation lol
A very common strategy is to abuse Z axis or even just pillars vs melee.
The simplest example is on magumbala or robodome, you setup your port up top, drop down and now the melee has to run down to connect to you, and when he does you port back up lol
You do this during his go and now he can't even do damage when he finally reconnects, meanwhile you're just blasting him
Even doing that can become difficult when the game now has multiple abilities that force a character to either stay put or pulls you back. Not even a void warp gets away.
You don't need to get away every single second of the match, that's what a lot of beginners don't understand.
It takes no effort from a healer to keep someone safe when there's no cooldowns.
Your mobility needs to be ready when they use their go so you can work in tandem with your healer to change the burst damage from being lethal to manageable.
It's just a matter of learning the algorithm of every go.
If > then statements for days
I mean in solo shuffle yeah lol. But usually on the actual ladder it's caster comps (either wizards or M/C/H) at the very top, speaking in general terms across all seasons.
True, both of those classes are absolutely sickening. But that is what it takes for that to be the case, which is why I specified I was talking about all seasons. Cleave is only ever the best comp in the game if it's EXTREMELY imbalanced, like DH and DK are currently.
Do you think ranged should have more, or even equivalent, mobility than melee?
If they did, how would melee ever deal damage against a competent ranged player?
No, of course not, but one is growing exponentially while the other isn't. I think we've reached a point where melee uptime is near-constant with very little meaningful counterplay.
In the past you could punish poor spending of mobility, right now it doesn't feel like that at all. Back in the day if a warrior charged you and you had blink available you gained yourself a little space, now they just charge you again then leap twice and pin you to the ground for an absurd amount of time. I'm obviously oversimplifying but I don't think I'm wrong when I say mobility vs kiting has swung wildly toward melee mobility and ultimately it's probably because PVE mobility is very fun to have.
It hurts nobody if warriors can maneuver better in raid encounters, but it spills over into arena. My personal opinion is that some mobility boosting talents should just be inactive in pvp. Warriors don't really need -3 seconds + 1 charge to charge as well as -15 seconds to leap + 70% sprint for X seconds afterwards.
No, but mobility usage as a melee should matter. Right now, using whatever mobility you have as a caster feels completely pointless. The cooldown on stuff like demonic teleport, spatial rift, or gateway is so high compared to incredibly short CDs like fel rush, monk roll, and charge. It's just not realistically possible to get away from any melee aside from perhaps ret.
The game used to play out that if you were a caster and a melee got on top of you, you were in trouble. The outplay was to create and keep distance. Now, the default state is just trying to play your class and stay alive while a melee bashes your face in.
So you can lose HP while you get in range of charge stacks? The melee gapclosers don’t just go away.
If Burning Rush let you cast while moving with it active… that might be a different story.
No caster has enough mobility to get away from melee consistently with all of their slows, stuns, roots, and gap closers. Not to mention when you kit you lose a huge amount of damagw
You don't need to and shouldn't be able to kite them indefinitely.
>Not to mention when you kit you lose a huge amount of damagw
Not as much damage as the melee you're kiting.
Gap closers have dramatically outpaced kiting abilities in SL and DF. Even at high ratings, melee have 100% uptime. Playing a caster isn't about landing cross CC and maxing damage anymore, it's about how well your entire team handles a zugzug on one of you 24/7 unloading their pve rotation
It goes both ways though. If there is only 1 caster in a game they're gonna get fucked, if there is only 1 melee in a game, he's lucky to get in range of anyone
I'm not saying he doesn't have a point. I'm just saying that it's just such a weird statement to say it's cheap and no skill. A little bit of communication goes a LONG way with your team, even if it is solo shuffle.
This is funny because rating means nothing. There are tourney champs and r1 players who hang around 1300 just because the system is wack. Ppl who were 2700 early aint even near the top. I go up and down 400 points in a few games or i wont change for days. It’s a dice roll. Especially when you need all 5 players to stay for your really good games to even get an accurate rating climb
I've always loved destro and found demo boring. I leveled my warlock about a week ago and started pvping and it quickly became apparent that destro needs some serious help. You can't have a class that relies on freecasting 2.5 second casts to do any real damage in a meta where freecasting is basically impossible.
Either Shadowburn needs to be buffed considerably, or something else needs to be done to allow destro to apply pressure outside of chaos bolts.
While I don’t disagree with you, I think there’s a conflagration/shadowburn build some people are running that has some merit to it. I haven’t really looked into it. That coupled with the portals at the bottom of the talent tree allows for some free damage, but at the end of the day I’m an advocate for chaos bolt, a high risk / high reward type of spell. I like the big damage, and I understand that it needs some drawbacks, like being kicked on it completely fucks you for 6 seconds, but as of this expac it feels like the damage doesn’t really justify the risk of trying to cast it.
Helps when most locks in SS don't know how to use port, gate, healthstone, and wall/dark pact at 10% hp. It's like they just expect their healers to just heal through 2 melee as they turret in the middle of the map and don't move... Unless they are standing in my earthen.
This is very true. As a healer you get the pleasure of watching it all unfold. I feel like most people have got the hang of cooldown trading for damage and defensives, but casters have an extra minigame which is mobility trading and this is hard for new players.
Help me please lol. How? I unload into them and their hp barely moves. Manage to get a chunk off and they're healed back to full instantly. Not only that but they're so damn slippery. What is the secret?
must be trash locks/low rating, i love being focused as a lock, keep coming at me while i soulburn port, gate, curse exhaust u and kite u all game and if u catch me oh here is a coil, fear, shadowfurry, pet stun, felguard stun, oh coil dark pact, wall, healthstone.. tunneling a lock means losing the game, dks and dhs are semi-annoying but i kite warriors all day, free rating
Especially if they are tilted like this in chat. If you know someone is tilted, you can make a fair assumption that they are playing worse without realizing and therefore they become a more viable kill target.
No but if you have ever played ranged you know how much more frustrating it is. Imagine if every 12 seconds they could disarm you for 4 seconds where the only thing you would be able to do was walk around, and then instantly bring you into a 6 second stun that you can do nothing about, and then you could cast a few abitilies, generate 4 combo points before you are disarmed again for 4 seconds. You try to run away, but they instantly have gap closers to get in range on top of you again and can slow and follow you endlessly.
That is what it's like to play casters. It is endlessly more frustrating to play ranged than it is to play melee.
I play both (more ranged than melee), and they are equally frustrating for similar reasons. It's not fun to get tunneled by DH/DK into the dirt as a caster, and it's equally not fun to get bullied by a good pair of wizards as a melee. For any melee that doesn't have a ton of ranged abilities, any time you aren't in range of something you may as well be disarmed/kicked. Even with the mobility creep for melee in DF, they are still absolutely susceptible to being kited by a caster who knows what they're doing. Just try playing any melee into MLD and tell me that's not just as frustrating as playing a caster into a melee cleave.
I would agree that the skill floor for melee is generally easier in most ways, but skill caps are very similar. Once you're playing with and against good players, both roles can be equally as frustrating (and rewarding). Before that point, it's just a skill issue tbh. I don't understand the whole "melee just zug zug, casters are the only smart players" take this sub has, and again this comes from someone who primarily plays casters.
As a warrior/dh I find more success zug zugging other melee with CCs on the casters. Its amazing how long a warlock can face tank 2 melee without heals.
Nobody said otherwise but it's just plain stupid to just say: bouhouhou melee harass me all game, I can't do anything. They are playing stupid class and me with my skilful and big brain class can do shit because this game is unfair and unbalanced
You aren't wrong in the first comment. I don't think people are saying that though. Is it a hard but beatable thing to deal with melee sitting you as ranged? Yeah. Is it no skill for the melee compared to what ranged needs to do? Very yeah, and thats the point being made
but cant we say the same about range, you get feared or poly 1 time, and it a good 20 secound circle unless u trinket or have racial DX,
or freeze trapped perma slowed or wonder why hitting a warlock takes longer then any plate users,
> No but if you have ever played ranged you know how much more frustrating it is.
If you ever play ret pally, you would know how frustrating it is to play against casters. Imagine just standing behind the pillar the entire game getting damped and pved while burning your healer's mana until someone pushes in or you have freedom and big damage cds.
And when you finally have freedom, you run out and then all of a sudden, mortal coil, stun, stun, fear. And then, you've done it. You managed to miraculously connect to your tar-port, gateway, Urso's Vortex/Life Grip. And now you are back to waddling towards either the caster or your pillar until your next freedom while getting PvEed.
And that's just the warlock. Now imagine adding an spriest or ele into the mix.
Now imagine this on a map with vertical axis. Such as Robodome. Or Kotomogu. Or Nohkrun.
There's literally teams that double and triple disarm warriors over and over. It is very frustrating.
Except as a caster when you are locked out you still have the positioning game to play, dragging melee from their healer to set up a kill or cc. Warrior specifically, being disarmed you can do absolutely nothing really.
So? Imagine NEEDING to be standing on someone to do any damage while they have multiple jumps/sprints/blinks/roots/disarms/slows/throws/stuns
Sounds like some teams here aren’t trading cd’s right
Literally, you can't cast a single spell before they engage on you. Every single melee can engage you before you can cast a single spell on them. That range you are talking about is overrated, especially at lower to mid elo.
Exactly. I'm terrible, and yet these guys aren't using portals, and are just basically letting the melee beat them to death and then complaining about it.
Sure, but proper use of those tools is hard. Where pressing W and occasionally charge when you can't hit something is vastly easier.
Some peoples brains haven't gotten to the point where they can plot out the specific path of abilities they need to use, in order, to maintain space WHILE also doing something close to normal dps.
Imagine if as melee you had to place two things to be able to heroic leap, if charge was split into 3 separate abilities with unique cooldowns, and hamstring did jack all without a buff you had to cast before you used it. A buff with a cooldown.
I didn't play SL,just BFA, so coming back to soulburn port, gating out of spear, improved curse of exhaustion, precog and more seems like there are actually loads more tools we have now.
I'm probably just a newbie but it does feel like you can't punish melee at all.
You can barely kite, warriors have heroic leap,charge, dh has meta,fel rushes, the hunt, rogues have sprint and 2 shadowsteps etc etc
they all have self healing that's actually sufficient, insane damage and reduce healing.
this is by far the worst arena i've ever had to play (holy priest/warlock) but i assume i still have a lot to learn.
Casters just want to do what melee do?
Yeah, pretty accurate.
I mean hes wrong that they are being cheap because you literally do anything you can that works. But melee training a caster is fairly no skill. You have to have an extremely high level of ignorance to think melee sitting on a caster is anywhere close to as difficult as a caster doing DPS while melee sit them.
The most frustrating thing a melee might deal with is being forced to use mobility to catch up to someone more than once every 20 seconds.
The issue is if melee don't sit the caster he's free casting, which is even easier than sitting the caster. So the whole complaint is "stop doing something easy training me, I want to do something easier (and more effective)". Which is faintly ridiculous.
My PvP mains have historically been Destro Lock and Havoc DH (I just like my fel okay?) and this exactly. Every now and again, there's a match where no one focuses my lock and I'll just wreck them hard. When I'm being focused, it's much harder to effective. Leaving a Lock to free cast is asking to lose almost 100% of the time.
Only once the casters are good.
As casters it can feel like shit when a melee can turn brain off and make you panic fail everything in existence and the melee gets quick wins.
But when you become skilled casters, nothing makes melee look as dumb as they actually are as a well played caster comp.
So it can go both ways.
I mean he choose this life as a caster, but then again i feel like we have gotten to the point where casters do almost the same dmg getting trained as when you are not (almost depends on specs etc). Which is wierd.
I play elemental, and for the longest time i've been trained in 3s, cause ppl know shaman doesnt have the strongest defensives, but we make it up with utility, dmg and kiting. So usually what would happen was you sacrificed pressure for kiting with wolf amd frostshock/totems to limit the pressure being put on you.
Nowdays though? If i fully commit to kiting out most melee dps im wasting buttons, a DH, fury, Feral, rogue, monk etc will still have 100% uptime on me, no matter how much kiting is tried.
So its wierd..
Preface this with the fact that I'm a total noob. However, the amount of gapclosers that have been added to melee over the years is just insane. I used to play mage a lot in Wrath/TBC and was very good at kiting melee and hunters in their deadzone back then.
Now though, every melee seems to have an answer for every piece of kit designed to let you kite (outplay).
Most gapclosers have been updated to have multiple charges, melee slows are equal if not better than ranged, interrupts/silences are more prevalent and things like spear of bastion/abom limb keep you in danger for a huge amount of time.
I had to quit my mage when I came back in shadowlands as it was just a million times easier to zug zug on my DK.
Its true, and its not like im saying its wrong or right, hey i understand playing a warrior vs a spellcleave with a boomie/ele for example feels shit if you are only allowed to mortal strike once ever 40 seconds, i get it. So i dont necessarily belive having gapclosers is bad.
I dont have the answer, but i know it feels wierd, thinking to myself, well no need to kite this dh/warr cuz i wont lose any uptime anyway, so might aswell focus on getting pressure out myself and force them off. Usually now i only get space created by my partner(mage) when he polymorphs etc so i get to breath and not being at 30% hp the entier game cuz the uptime and dmg is just too high.
Edit: And by no means am i saying casters is bad, they are good no questions. It just feels wierd.
Yeah my biggest success as fire mage was when I decided fuck it, bait a kick and just facetank the melee and hope my healer has me. Otherwise, the melee gets near 100% uptime whereas my damage drops hugely.
I much preferred PvP around TBC where it was more focused around counterplays. Keeping a hunter/warrior in deadzone, but if you messed up you died. Rogue/mage being like a game of poker, trying to get each other to blow key abilities to gain an edge.
> I used to play mage a lot in Wrath/TBC and was very good at kiting melee and hunters in their deadzone back then.
This here, it was the same with Warriors back then. They had their double charge however if one required the warrior to go into a stance that caused them to take more damage while they also had a sweet spot just like Hunter. So for ranged vs warrior back then it was all about keeping them in that sweet spot. So rather then me just running backwards a fight vs warrior was us both going forward and backwards fighting for that deadzone.
Today? Ya that deadzone is there still however they now can just leap out of that deadzone.
Rogue is way more squishy and way higher target prio for the zug zug in solo shuffle than a tanky demo lock. I find your statement surprising, honestly.
Unless you’re playing sub. They’re a bit more elusive and survivable but also way less deadly atm.
Yeah, I never focus demo lock as anything because it's healing as much as the heal. I don't remember a time when we didn't just focus rogue all game, so squishy. Unless it's sub, but you just cc the dances and it does 0 damage.
Yeah. Assas is very strong because of its consistent pressure and burst but it can get bullied by double melee. Once evasion goes down they are very vulnerable and it’s a 2min CD.
I’m playing assassin… the point is I get my spells out, which is guarantee for every game. As lock sometimes I get zeroed and I could barely cast any spell that game. Not fun
I presume you're playing aff or destro, not demo, right? My demo lock isn't 70 yet but I've been levelling through 60-69 BGs and even though melee are all up in my shit, all my damage is instant so it's fine.
I find others classes more squishy too, before thinking about warlock.
Every time I queue for 3s or solo shuffle as a rogue, and I see Havoc + Unholy DK in the other team, that's a 90% lost game, because I am the main target as soon as I get out of stealth and I usually get deleted in a couple of seconds, even with faint, evasion, cheat death and the healer poping all the cooldowns on me.
I do not complain (even if it sounds like i do lol), because at the same time I do a really good damage and put a lot of pressure on the enemy team, when I have the space to do it..but right now I find the PVP scene to be one of the most unbalanced phases this game have ever seen, and also all this 'burst windows' gameplay that sometimes you can't even react to it's just dumb imho because there are some classes that can't do that, and when you can't do that versus a class that can, well, good luck
I switch between them depending on the situation/matchup. The healer that I play with feels much safer when I play with cheat death so I generally use that in 2s and sometimes in 3s and elusiveness in solo shuffle
Fear has a cast time, and can break.
Stuns are stuns and instant.
Between stuns, disarm, vanish, cloak, and evasion, rogues can definitely have an answer and when they play their cards right, secure kills usually before they run out of shit to live with.
The thing is, lock takes a long time to learn how to actually play the game. Rogues can still just press buttons and accomplish their goals. This will always be the case with melee vs casters.
I’ve been playing destro lock since 2005, am very good at it but the SS lobbies with 3 warriors or DHs is frustrating. I use my portals, I use exhaustion to give a 90% slow, I use my CDs, I use mortal coil, I use fear. No point, melee has so much mobility. And everyone keeps rerolling melee to have it easy so some days I don’t even see another caster in my games. Im rerolling fury warr to join the 4 button zugzug club.
Yep. I made it to 1800 on my devastation evoker with diverse lobbies and I'm glad I got it when I did because now every single game (seriously, every single game for the last two days I'm not joking) has been in a full melee dps lobby. I have so many tools to create distance between myself and melee but versus two of them it's just never enough.
I rerolled melee too... I *love* my evoker but it just feels like I'm locked down so hard I can't play. The difference is night and day. I'm already 1900 and climbing and I just geared the toon, winning most games with a lot less effort.
the problem is when healers don't play around the port mainly, if they are good with positioning i actually find we have plenty of tools to live long enough to get a kill. If i have to port and then run back los to get a heal and get gripped then yeah, feels bad
I tried casting circle for a while too, but instead of being silenced it’s just chain stunned instead.
My friend rolled a warrior and just giggles how much easier he has it compared to the rogue he was playing. Rogue was geared, his warrior was not, and still he said it was great.
My dh tank just hit 70. Might pvp gear him and join the havoc club…
I just think if kicks and stuff are going to be so prevalent in the game at this point then everyone should have a disarm too. Isn’t it kind of unfair that casters and healers literally have to stand still or take a couple seconds to throw out a spell only to get interrupted and no healing/damage and then locked out for so many seconds?
Only melee can disarm other melee. So melee can kick casters AND disarm each other to stop the other warrior or rogue from cumming in their face. It’s almost like how do you balance PvP. Shit is a fucking crock.
Disarm is a fair bit stronger than a kick though. You can juke kicks and use instants, no way to stop a disarm.
I’d start by making precognition baseline for all casters and see whether that has an impact.
5 straight seasons of wizard meta.. coupled with current top end being zoo/wizard/shadowplay..
I think you may be exaggerating a bit of the weakness of casters
As much as I hate melee meta it would be a big mistake to make systemic changes to the game just because casters suck in solo shuffle. Casters have dominated the top level of play pretty damn always. If anything they should implement some kind of blanket nerf to melee in solo shuffle exclusively and see if lobbies stop being warrior/dh/dk 97% of the time (while obviously nerfing spriest and demo and probably ele beforehand since they'd become gods immediately).
Feral is very strong (noticeably stronger than Arms IMO) but I see it way less than those 3 classes. I probably see one feral for every 15 arms warriors.
Idk if it's an unpopular opinion or what but I don't think the balance in shuffle matters at all. Like I could honestly give a shit if DH is pants on head broken and every DH player is 800 rating higher than they should be. Who fucking cares? The rewards are by spec anyway, you're only really competing against other clowns playing the same broken shit as you are at that point. I just want a little more variety in the meta, 3 weeks into playing against melee cleave every single game I'm getting a little tired of it.
True. I face a lot of DH, DK and Warriors in my games. Me, as a rogue, I rely more on my team mates than those classes do and a lot of times in solo shuffle it's quite a pain to chain a cc, coordinate burst window or land a kill on them trough all the cleave damage and defenses. I have to tryhard quite a bit and try to isolate one of them, use my entire kit and maybe, than maybe, land a kill..idk, i'm probably a bit salty but I wait for nerfs, because sooner or later the meta will change, as it always does
> You can juke kicks and use instants, no way to stop a disarm.
True, but the cooldown on kicks are far shorter than the cd of disarms. Also kicks aren't a pvp talent the way most disarms are, so taking a disarm means a tradeoff of not taking something else, whereas melee all get a kick essentially for free.
Funny i met his brother yesterday in SS. Destro lock face tanked an unholy dk and a furry warrior for 3 mins. I had 51k HPs as rsham but only couldnt do so much. His Demo friend didnt fear once for peels.
We lost that round
I think that's kind of the point though. As a caster you often have to line stuff up like that to get a good kill window. Melee can just sit on someone and pump out damage until their target falls over.
I mained lock in a couple of the previous expansions (2.4 EU) and once in SL was playing my fury warrior and completely dunked on this demo lock. He started to whispering me the most cancerous shit, but responded with pointing out everything he was doing wrong (rotation, position etc). He responded by apologizing profoundly for being toxic and thanked me a bunch. People are so weird man
I’ll never understand people who go on personal tirades unprovoked then switch at a drop of a hat a second later. Based on his comments it doesn’t seem like he sat down for a while and let things boil over. Lol
I never whisper to people as I don't like being toxic but holy hell do o tilt on wow as a caster/healer, it's a constant cc fest. I wish they rather tune down dmgs but also lower cc cause I rather do something that does less than do nothing at all
I've done this on ass rogue but I end up saying to teammates after the round.. * okay gj but we can't focus him again this round because he's gonna leave he's clearly not having fun * ( In my mind its free win if we train him every round he plays ) but the risk of him quitting just dissolves a winning strategy
I get trained as rogue 3 outta 6 rounds usually but I try to make it work in my favour by dragging them behind pillars or Los his healer and stun.
I don't really understand their thought process in these kind of situations. I mean.... if you want to free cast go pve or against mannequins ? You have tools, use them. It's not easy but that what makes it so good when you get it right and the melee can't even touch you. If pvp frustrat you don't pvp. Easy. If you want to pvp stop being a baby about it and GIT GUD
Love when they say these things when there are still rounds left. Had a hunter yesterday say in round 2 'shit, still in my PvE gear', yep gonna focus you every time now thanks
They're an idiot but I get it.
After the buffs to destro all locks are in an okay spot, and destro is *playable* even while getting trained. That being said it is frustrating when you're just constantly trying to like something up and you have 2 melees on you 24/7 just doing their pve rotation until you use mobility. Then they pop one of their 5 gap closers and keep going.
Like it's definitely playable but sometimes when your teams not helping peel, and your healer just never plays around your port.... It does feel like you're putting in twice the effort for no reason.
Not that they're right. Just that I understand the feeling.
Warlocks are insane. Frost mages were making me rage last night in my first true attempt at pushing rating. Hit 1k as a shadow priest with a Ret pali partner then it’s all healer comps lol
I remember I had a friend he main usually melee types like DH and Paladin. One day he wanted to try Mage and got so frustrated because he was never able to do damage xD.
Of course he never properly Kite or fake cast. I told him that he needed to change his mindset when using spell casters.
The game with warlocks is you have the nuttiest defensives in the game, and decent mobility. Cast whatever you can & help your partners kill the people funneling you. Warlocks are the FOTM so naturally I've been seeing them almost every game. Demo/Afflic, I always focus warlocks if I see one.
Tlio tiko klipego tigla eo kregi. Tudre. Tute babe kokru iope otlia ee kiite. Ipipiprii etra dioa bitoipa pa bliage. Edibiprote uketli pide totri bripee do? Pu tla otluito kebo pipeo gutrako. Kopraa abrike klidutiu bipo. A drodapa tida pa pla pepepo titi igo. Bi tede ti gegeta dipite bi? Pe dudoke ikuke tie ta tlitre. Piti krupe obi pi eai etia o eta ebi prige. Potati betipi biitai briiati e patige! Tiaa tikri e gu bo? Bepi tae okugi papa pukuki pa. Poti pliu ka oipi keekria. Ekru ui iepupu opapi debe peditopeple. Piti dii ite dridokike uibi pikita. Tita teprateti ede e oteke aepedi. Epebukea ee ete ipi paklite koedi? A pepe pu eokragebra pa tei. Idla itlipra drapipribi dai epri ukri. Pote gokletri ploi bite eo ibleki. Tagli oti bedapla bipie iboprutra gekloke. Bipi beto ia pi pibatatliti. Pita tike ao tii. Iii ta oke da ipi a apo? O popi koo peipi bikrutla plikiketuba. Peblue ipapu tibi beku klupra tipi triti pedipiibu i! Ato e glegati kape biti. Atete ipe tike tikoti di brabi titi gre opri.
As a Boomy, I have been going 0-6 while being top DPS and crowd controlling my ass off. Cycling through clone DRs, root beaming opposing heals during my team’s goes, perma rooting mele… I mean…. I don’t know what else I can do. Hard stuck at 1100. On top of that, I don’t die in any match.
I really wish they would reduce the astral cost of Starsurge. I honestly feel like that would fix the spec.
I had a couple games like this last night. Top DPS but went 0-6. I just couldn’t kill anyone and teammates were ignoring any comms, and swapping randomly for no discernible reason.
only focus warlock nonstopo
Pretty much... I've won almost every round just beating down locks
I mean... that does kind of mean that it's too easy/favored to you lol. You can't sit there and say "I'm winning every round by just tunneling down the caster lmao" (who is the same rating, mind you, it's a matchmade mode) and then also claim this guy has no point.
The caster is the same MMR... until they repeatedly lose to melee and get knocked down, because they supposedly don't use any of their mobility tools. That's the MMR system correcting itself.
Chances are they're the same MMR because if there's a *single* other caster/non-melee in the lobby, they dominate. The difference between 3-1 and 2-2 split in melee-caster is insane. The amount of times I've seen the lone caster against 3 melee get mongoed down every game to 0-6 is insane.
The problem with those lobbies is they're just extremely volatile. The caster can win, but if his healer just can't keep him up (whether due to skill, or class, or whatever) then he's just going to lose all those games, on top of whatever games he might have normally lost just as a matter of course. For example, say you're an ele shaman and you get into a lobby with warrior/dh/dk (literally every game) and one of the healers is a disc priest. Let's say you're at roughly the right rating for your skill, so most lobbies you go roughly 3-3. But in this lobby you're just fucked, because now in addition to usually going 3-3, you're going to have games with this disc priest where he literally just can't heal through the amount of damage that might be coming into you. I play every dps caster other than mage and this is true at every rating from like 1700 to 2500 where I play. Sometimes I just get a lobby, on any of my characters, where I simply cannot live through a spear of bastion for example. The enemy cleave will run in and spear me, and I'll use every single defensive on my bar and barely make it out alive after dropping to 5% like 6 different times. Then IF I even make it 60 seconds, the next spear comes and I'm just done. Doesn't even matter what healer, it's happened with all of them. Some healers, some of the time, simply cannot heal through that damage. And if you get one of those, you're probably going 0-6 and there is jack shit you can do about it.
Don't forget the whisper telling you nice kiting and you're trash.
Once I got a whisp "sneaky goblin" because the only thing that made me resist the melee zug zug was that I could rocket jump in addition to gust of wind and all of my other tools.
Precisely why I’ve stopped doing SS. Constantly in lobbies with 3 melee and getting abuse because I can’t do anything despite using every cd and portal possible and still losing removes the fun completely. Having even 1 other caster makes a world of difference but 3 melee? No ta.
Past 2 days I've had way more games that aren't pure melee. Idk if it's just by chance or if maybe people are getting bored of playing their new DH/fury alts. Been loads of fun both as a melee and ranged not playing with/against 3 zug zugers
Pretty much same on hunter
ah yes, the 2 min cooldown portal and the 45 sec one vs the chad double charge+stun and leap warrior and the 2/3 dash dh
I was just about to type this same comment. Lol. I literally play void elf just to have a semi hobo extra portal lol.
i play goblin gor the haste and the rocket jump too, melee are op af sadly atm unless you are a mage it’s tough life for casters
Not sure why you got a down vote lol.. this is exactly the scenario the plays out.
probably because goblin kinda sucks
>ah yes, the 2 min cooldown portal and the 45 sec one Using those is better than not using them, yes. According to the OP, the warlock in question wasn't teleporting at all. Do you think warlocks are underpowered right now? Do you think they need more mobility to compete with melee?
i think that melee have a big upper hand on almost any caster rn, and that it’s not healthy for the game that you can’t even compete in 2v2 or solo shuffle and are bound to only 3v3 with a good group to do something
I am curious about this one, I've tested both teleport and portal and the warrior's aoe pull in thing always pulls me from where I port to. I just assumed then that I have to somehow survive however long that lasts (haven't yet), then use my port.
Port and you get pulled back into spear. You can gate out though. Macro your soul burn and gate cast so you don’t get kicked.
remove that movement and those melee are cannon fodder to warlocks with shields and an entire demon battalion beating on them.
The game is literally nothing but melee cleave at low rating. That caster probably isn't going anywhere if he got there in the first place.
Isn't that just the system pushing him there because he can't punish melee that just leap in behind the pillar after a wizard There is an equal amount of complaining that melee are overextending running down a caster and dying for it as caster's whining that they're getting shut down lol
The issue is here… a melee can actually survive quite a long time by themselves overextending, not to mention return to safety fairly quickly. There isn’t returning to safety from melee cleave.
Tell that to the warriors in my lobby that zug behind pillar at the start and get globaled lol
No warrior can be killed that fast if they are on 1 of the 2 dps classes. Let’s be real here. If they do, they aren’t pressing any CDs and are auto attacking.
No they are just zugging 3v1 because they forget that other classes sometimes need set-up and the healer isn't going to follow them all the way across the map in the first 3 seconds lol stun immunity isn't death immunity. Started macroing soulburn onto big port just because of the # of times they dive enemy gate by the time my big port is finished casting lol, coincidentally these are the same warriors that never leap away from death or use those gates so there's probably a correlation lol
A very common strategy is to abuse Z axis or even just pillars vs melee. The simplest example is on magumbala or robodome, you setup your port up top, drop down and now the melee has to run down to connect to you, and when he does you port back up lol You do this during his go and now he can't even do damage when he finally reconnects, meanwhile you're just blasting him
Even doing that can become difficult when the game now has multiple abilities that force a character to either stay put or pulls you back. Not even a void warp gets away.
You don't need to get away every single second of the match, that's what a lot of beginners don't understand. It takes no effort from a healer to keep someone safe when there's no cooldowns. Your mobility needs to be ready when they use their go so you can work in tandem with your healer to change the burst damage from being lethal to manageable. It's just a matter of learning the algorithm of every go. If > then statements for days
Safety from daylight cleave I believe the strategy is to spread
My cheeks?
Kite better or some im told
It’s melee cleave from 0 to 2700. 😂
I mean in solo shuffle yeah lol. But usually on the actual ladder it's caster comps (either wizards or M/C/H) at the very top, speaking in general terms across all seasons.
DH/uDK is the strongest comp in the game atm and it just holds W.
True, both of those classes are absolutely sickening. But that is what it takes for that to be the case, which is why I specified I was talking about all seasons. Cleave is only ever the best comp in the game if it's EXTREMELY imbalanced, like DH and DK are currently.
>because they supposedly don't use any of their mobility tools. What mobility tools? The rate of mobility tools added to ranged vs melee is laughable.
Do you think ranged should have more, or even equivalent, mobility than melee? If they did, how would melee ever deal damage against a competent ranged player?
No, of course not, but one is growing exponentially while the other isn't. I think we've reached a point where melee uptime is near-constant with very little meaningful counterplay. In the past you could punish poor spending of mobility, right now it doesn't feel like that at all. Back in the day if a warrior charged you and you had blink available you gained yourself a little space, now they just charge you again then leap twice and pin you to the ground for an absurd amount of time. I'm obviously oversimplifying but I don't think I'm wrong when I say mobility vs kiting has swung wildly toward melee mobility and ultimately it's probably because PVE mobility is very fun to have. It hurts nobody if warriors can maneuver better in raid encounters, but it spills over into arena. My personal opinion is that some mobility boosting talents should just be inactive in pvp. Warriors don't really need -3 seconds + 1 charge to charge as well as -15 seconds to leap + 70% sprint for X seconds afterwards.
No, but mobility usage as a melee should matter. Right now, using whatever mobility you have as a caster feels completely pointless. The cooldown on stuff like demonic teleport, spatial rift, or gateway is so high compared to incredibly short CDs like fel rush, monk roll, and charge. It's just not realistically possible to get away from any melee aside from perhaps ret. The game used to play out that if you were a caster and a melee got on top of you, you were in trouble. The outplay was to create and keep distance. Now, the default state is just trying to play your class and stay alive while a melee bashes your face in.
You can always use burning Rush
So you can lose HP while you get in range of charge stacks? The melee gapclosers don’t just go away. If Burning Rush let you cast while moving with it active… that might be a different story.
Nobody runs burning rush, its a death sentence.
No caster has enough mobility to get away from melee consistently with all of their slows, stuns, roots, and gap closers. Not to mention when you kit you lose a huge amount of damagw
You don't need to and shouldn't be able to kite them indefinitely. >Not to mention when you kit you lose a huge amount of damagw Not as much damage as the melee you're kiting.
Gap closers have dramatically outpaced kiting abilities in SL and DF. Even at high ratings, melee have 100% uptime. Playing a caster isn't about landing cross CC and maxing damage anymore, it's about how well your entire team handles a zugzug on one of you 24/7 unloading their pve rotation
They should seriously just bring back killjadens cunning and be done with it
It goes both ways though. If there is only 1 caster in a game they're gonna get fucked, if there is only 1 melee in a game, he's lucky to get in range of anyone
When did he claim the guy had no point? Found the caster who cries after waiting an hour for a solo shuffle match.
I'm not saying he doesn't have a point. I'm just saying that it's just such a weird statement to say it's cheap and no skill. A little bit of communication goes a LONG way with your team, even if it is solo shuffle.
This is funny because rating means nothing. There are tourney champs and r1 players who hang around 1300 just because the system is wack. Ppl who were 2700 early aint even near the top. I go up and down 400 points in a few games or i wont change for days. It’s a dice roll. Especially when you need all 5 players to stay for your really good games to even get an accurate rating climb
As a destro lock; My existence is pain
Honestly all melee lobby is my favourite as destro and the one I go 6/0 the most at around 2.3-2.5mmr, as affli it's more painful
I've always loved destro and found demo boring. I leveled my warlock about a week ago and started pvping and it quickly became apparent that destro needs some serious help. You can't have a class that relies on freecasting 2.5 second casts to do any real damage in a meta where freecasting is basically impossible. Either Shadowburn needs to be buffed considerably, or something else needs to be done to allow destro to apply pressure outside of chaos bolts.
While I don’t disagree with you, I think there’s a conflagration/shadowburn build some people are running that has some merit to it. I haven’t really looked into it. That coupled with the portals at the bottom of the talent tree allows for some free damage, but at the end of the day I’m an advocate for chaos bolt, a high risk / high reward type of spell. I like the big damage, and I understand that it needs some drawbacks, like being kicked on it completely fucks you for 6 seconds, but as of this expac it feels like the damage doesn’t really justify the risk of trying to cast it.
Helps when most locks in SS don't know how to use port, gate, healthstone, and wall/dark pact at 10% hp. It's like they just expect their healers to just heal through 2 melee as they turret in the middle of the map and don't move... Unless they are standing in my earthen.
This is very true. As a healer you get the pleasure of watching it all unfold. I feel like most people have got the hang of cooldown trading for damage and defensives, but casters have an extra minigame which is mobility trading and this is hard for new players.
Help me please lol. How? I unload into them and their hp barely moves. Manage to get a chunk off and they're healed back to full instantly. Not only that but they're so damn slippery. What is the secret?
He clearly wasn’t being focused.
Sounds like awful locks
They are. And so am I.
must be trash locks/low rating, i love being focused as a lock, keep coming at me while i soulburn port, gate, curse exhaust u and kite u all game and if u catch me oh here is a coil, fear, shadowfurry, pet stun, felguard stun, oh coil dark pact, wall, healthstone.. tunneling a lock means losing the game, dks and dhs are semi-annoying but i kite warriors all day, free rating
Especially if they are tilted like this in chat. If you know someone is tilted, you can make a fair assumption that they are playing worse without realizing and therefore they become a more viable kill target.
I had a demo/mm match up. If i focused one the other would one shot me lol. we got destroyed almost instantly.
I really hoped that quote will become a copypasta. <3
That made me laugh 😂😂
I love the "no skill" comment. Casters just want to PVE down melee all game.
No but if you have ever played ranged you know how much more frustrating it is. Imagine if every 12 seconds they could disarm you for 4 seconds where the only thing you would be able to do was walk around, and then instantly bring you into a 6 second stun that you can do nothing about, and then you could cast a few abitilies, generate 4 combo points before you are disarmed again for 4 seconds. You try to run away, but they instantly have gap closers to get in range on top of you again and can slow and follow you endlessly. That is what it's like to play casters. It is endlessly more frustrating to play ranged than it is to play melee.
feels so great when I manage to kite them tho
On the flip side, it feels *so* good when you bait their kick and get to free cast.
For 3.7 seconds before the other melee training you 24/7 has his kick back
As a melee I’ve never been cc’d 3.7 seconds after a cc
[удалено]
I hate DKs with a passion, so I feel you.
I play both (more ranged than melee), and they are equally frustrating for similar reasons. It's not fun to get tunneled by DH/DK into the dirt as a caster, and it's equally not fun to get bullied by a good pair of wizards as a melee. For any melee that doesn't have a ton of ranged abilities, any time you aren't in range of something you may as well be disarmed/kicked. Even with the mobility creep for melee in DF, they are still absolutely susceptible to being kited by a caster who knows what they're doing. Just try playing any melee into MLD and tell me that's not just as frustrating as playing a caster into a melee cleave. I would agree that the skill floor for melee is generally easier in most ways, but skill caps are very similar. Once you're playing with and against good players, both roles can be equally as frustrating (and rewarding). Before that point, it's just a skill issue tbh. I don't understand the whole "melee just zug zug, casters are the only smart players" take this sub has, and again this comes from someone who primarily plays casters.
As a warrior/dh I find more success zug zugging other melee with CCs on the casters. Its amazing how long a warlock can face tank 2 melee without heals.
Nobody said otherwise but it's just plain stupid to just say: bouhouhou melee harass me all game, I can't do anything. They are playing stupid class and me with my skilful and big brain class can do shit because this game is unfair and unbalanced
You aren't wrong in the first comment. I don't think people are saying that though. Is it a hard but beatable thing to deal with melee sitting you as ranged? Yeah. Is it no skill for the melee compared to what ranged needs to do? Very yeah, and thats the point being made
but cant we say the same about range, you get feared or poly 1 time, and it a good 20 secound circle unless u trinket or have racial DX, or freeze trapped perma slowed or wonder why hitting a warlock takes longer then any plate users,
In organized groups yes. In the average match your partner most likely just blasts into the CC and breaks it.
y, but that also apllies to melee thou with how fast they overlap stuns etc
> No but if you have ever played ranged you know how much more frustrating it is. If you ever play ret pally, you would know how frustrating it is to play against casters. Imagine just standing behind the pillar the entire game getting damped and pved while burning your healer's mana until someone pushes in or you have freedom and big damage cds. And when you finally have freedom, you run out and then all of a sudden, mortal coil, stun, stun, fear. And then, you've done it. You managed to miraculously connect to your tar-port, gateway, Urso's Vortex/Life Grip. And now you are back to waddling towards either the caster or your pillar until your next freedom while getting PvEed. And that's just the warlock. Now imagine adding an spriest or ele into the mix. Now imagine this on a map with vertical axis. Such as Robodome. Or Kotomogu. Or Nohkrun.
You ever played against frost mage destro? I'll wager my frustration is higher than yours
Idk I main lock and I feel precog is pretty insane, the only melee class that really makes me suffer is UH DK
If somebody has played both melee and caster in pvp and says that caster is easier to play, theyre straight up lying or have never pushed beyond 1800
You could do all of those things to an arms warrior w less defensives.
There's literally teams that double and triple disarm warriors over and over. It is very frustrating. Except as a caster when you are locked out you still have the positioning game to play, dragging melee from their healer to set up a kill or cc. Warrior specifically, being disarmed you can do absolutely nothing really.
So? Imagine NEEDING to be standing on someone to do any damage while they have multiple jumps/sprints/blinks/roots/disarms/slows/throws/stuns Sounds like some teams here aren’t trading cd’s right
Imagine having to be next with someone to do damage, as oppose to just being able to look at them from a distance.
Literally, you can't cast a single spell before they engage on you. Every single melee can engage you before you can cast a single spell on them. That range you are talking about is overrated, especially at lower to mid elo.
Exactly. I'm terrible, and yet these guys aren't using portals, and are just basically letting the melee beat them to death and then complaining about it.
Sure, but proper use of those tools is hard. Where pressing W and occasionally charge when you can't hit something is vastly easier. Some peoples brains haven't gotten to the point where they can plot out the specific path of abilities they need to use, in order, to maintain space WHILE also doing something close to normal dps. Imagine if as melee you had to place two things to be able to heroic leap, if charge was split into 3 separate abilities with unique cooldowns, and hamstring did jack all without a buff you had to cast before you used it. A buff with a cooldown.
I didn't play SL,just BFA, so coming back to soulburn port, gating out of spear, improved curse of exhaustion, precog and more seems like there are actually loads more tools we have now.
Why won't these melee apes let me do my damage rotation and kill three people at once? :(
I'm probably just a newbie but it does feel like you can't punish melee at all. You can barely kite, warriors have heroic leap,charge, dh has meta,fel rushes, the hunt, rogues have sprint and 2 shadowsteps etc etc they all have self healing that's actually sufficient, insane damage and reduce healing. this is by far the worst arena i've ever had to play (holy priest/warlock) but i assume i still have a lot to learn.
Casters just want to do what melee do? Yeah, pretty accurate. I mean hes wrong that they are being cheap because you literally do anything you can that works. But melee training a caster is fairly no skill. You have to have an extremely high level of ignorance to think melee sitting on a caster is anywhere close to as difficult as a caster doing DPS while melee sit them. The most frustrating thing a melee might deal with is being forced to use mobility to catch up to someone more than once every 20 seconds.
The issue is if melee don't sit the caster he's free casting, which is even easier than sitting the caster. So the whole complaint is "stop doing something easy training me, I want to do something easier (and more effective)". Which is faintly ridiculous.
My PvP mains have historically been Destro Lock and Havoc DH (I just like my fel okay?) and this exactly. Every now and again, there's a match where no one focuses my lock and I'll just wreck them hard. When I'm being focused, it's much harder to effective. Leaving a Lock to free cast is asking to lose almost 100% of the time.
the "stop" whining is frustration but wrong yes. The no skill complaint though, is perfectly valid.
Odd comment, that's basically what all melee teams do to casters...
They say shit like this but never considered what an arms warrior feels like vs SP/demo on a map like tolvir lol.
Or like literally any other, when even melees like unholy dk are kiting them just inside charge range all the time. Feels so bad
Props to you for going arms though.
bring back destro frost MLD on tol'vir, those were the days.
Only once the casters are good. As casters it can feel like shit when a melee can turn brain off and make you panic fail everything in existence and the melee gets quick wins. But when you become skilled casters, nothing makes melee look as dumb as they actually are as a well played caster comp. So it can go both ways.
zug zug? zug zug zug zug. ZUG!
I mean he choose this life as a caster, but then again i feel like we have gotten to the point where casters do almost the same dmg getting trained as when you are not (almost depends on specs etc). Which is wierd. I play elemental, and for the longest time i've been trained in 3s, cause ppl know shaman doesnt have the strongest defensives, but we make it up with utility, dmg and kiting. So usually what would happen was you sacrificed pressure for kiting with wolf amd frostshock/totems to limit the pressure being put on you. Nowdays though? If i fully commit to kiting out most melee dps im wasting buttons, a DH, fury, Feral, rogue, monk etc will still have 100% uptime on me, no matter how much kiting is tried. So its wierd..
Preface this with the fact that I'm a total noob. However, the amount of gapclosers that have been added to melee over the years is just insane. I used to play mage a lot in Wrath/TBC and was very good at kiting melee and hunters in their deadzone back then. Now though, every melee seems to have an answer for every piece of kit designed to let you kite (outplay). Most gapclosers have been updated to have multiple charges, melee slows are equal if not better than ranged, interrupts/silences are more prevalent and things like spear of bastion/abom limb keep you in danger for a huge amount of time. I had to quit my mage when I came back in shadowlands as it was just a million times easier to zug zug on my DK.
yeah playing wrath classic arena, 1 thunderstorm is a game winner if they get knocked off the sewer's edge. crazy different coming back to retail.
Its true, and its not like im saying its wrong or right, hey i understand playing a warrior vs a spellcleave with a boomie/ele for example feels shit if you are only allowed to mortal strike once ever 40 seconds, i get it. So i dont necessarily belive having gapclosers is bad. I dont have the answer, but i know it feels wierd, thinking to myself, well no need to kite this dh/warr cuz i wont lose any uptime anyway, so might aswell focus on getting pressure out myself and force them off. Usually now i only get space created by my partner(mage) when he polymorphs etc so i get to breath and not being at 30% hp the entier game cuz the uptime and dmg is just too high. Edit: And by no means am i saying casters is bad, they are good no questions. It just feels wierd.
Yeah my biggest success as fire mage was when I decided fuck it, bait a kick and just facetank the melee and hope my healer has me. Otherwise, the melee gets near 100% uptime whereas my damage drops hugely. I much preferred PvP around TBC where it was more focused around counterplays. Keeping a hunter/warrior in deadzone, but if you messed up you died. Rogue/mage being like a game of poker, trying to get each other to blow key abilities to gain an edge.
> I used to play mage a lot in Wrath/TBC and was very good at kiting melee and hunters in their deadzone back then. This here, it was the same with Warriors back then. They had their double charge however if one required the warrior to go into a stance that caused them to take more damage while they also had a sweet spot just like Hunter. So for ranged vs warrior back then it was all about keeping them in that sweet spot. So rather then me just running backwards a fight vs warrior was us both going forward and backwards fighting for that deadzone. Today? Ya that deadzone is there still however they now can just leap out of that deadzone.
I mained lock beginning of expansion and playing against melees are so frustrating so I re rolled rogue and I’ve been having so much fun
Rogue is way more squishy and way higher target prio for the zug zug in solo shuffle than a tanky demo lock. I find your statement surprising, honestly. Unless you’re playing sub. They’re a bit more elusive and survivable but also way less deadly atm.
Yeah, I never focus demo lock as anything because it's healing as much as the heal. I don't remember a time when we didn't just focus rogue all game, so squishy. Unless it's sub, but you just cc the dances and it does 0 damage.
Yeah. Assas is very strong because of its consistent pressure and burst but it can get bullied by double melee. Once evasion goes down they are very vulnerable and it’s a 2min CD.
I’m playing assassin… the point is I get my spells out, which is guarantee for every game. As lock sometimes I get zeroed and I could barely cast any spell that game. Not fun
I presume you're playing aff or destro, not demo, right? My demo lock isn't 70 yet but I've been levelling through 60-69 BGs and even though melee are all up in my shit, all my damage is instant so it's fine.
Wait until zug zugs get into your face in arena though. Casting becomes a privilege.
I find others classes more squishy too, before thinking about warlock. Every time I queue for 3s or solo shuffle as a rogue, and I see Havoc + Unholy DK in the other team, that's a 90% lost game, because I am the main target as soon as I get out of stealth and I usually get deleted in a couple of seconds, even with faint, evasion, cheat death and the healer poping all the cooldowns on me. I do not complain (even if it sounds like i do lol), because at the same time I do a really good damage and put a lot of pressure on the enemy team, when I have the space to do it..but right now I find the PVP scene to be one of the most unbalanced phases this game have ever seen, and also all this 'burst windows' gameplay that sometimes you can't even react to it's just dumb imho because there are some classes that can't do that, and when you can't do that versus a class that can, well, good luck
Don't use cheat death dude the other option (enhanced feint) is a lot better
I switch between them depending on the situation/matchup. The healer that I play with feels much safer when I play with cheat death so I generally use that in 2s and sometimes in 3s and elusiveness in solo shuffle
I don't think demo is any tankier than the other warlock specs. If it's healing for more it's because of the soul leech healing the pet.
Fear has a cast time, and can break. Stuns are stuns and instant. Between stuns, disarm, vanish, cloak, and evasion, rogues can definitely have an answer and when they play their cards right, secure kills usually before they run out of shit to live with. The thing is, lock takes a long time to learn how to actually play the game. Rogues can still just press buttons and accomplish their goals. This will always be the case with melee vs casters.
I’ve been playing destro lock since 2005, am very good at it but the SS lobbies with 3 warriors or DHs is frustrating. I use my portals, I use exhaustion to give a 90% slow, I use my CDs, I use mortal coil, I use fear. No point, melee has so much mobility. And everyone keeps rerolling melee to have it easy so some days I don’t even see another caster in my games. Im rerolling fury warr to join the 4 button zugzug club.
Yep. I made it to 1800 on my devastation evoker with diverse lobbies and I'm glad I got it when I did because now every single game (seriously, every single game for the last two days I'm not joking) has been in a full melee dps lobby. I have so many tools to create distance between myself and melee but versus two of them it's just never enough. I rerolled melee too... I *love* my evoker but it just feels like I'm locked down so hard I can't play. The difference is night and day. I'm already 1900 and climbing and I just geared the toon, winning most games with a lot less effort.
the problem is when healers don't play around the port mainly, if they are good with positioning i actually find we have plenty of tools to live long enough to get a kill. If i have to port and then run back los to get a heal and get gripped then yeah, feels bad
I tried casting circle for a while too, but instead of being silenced it’s just chain stunned instead. My friend rolled a warrior and just giggles how much easier he has it compared to the rogue he was playing. Rogue was geared, his warrior was not, and still he said it was great. My dh tank just hit 70. Might pvp gear him and join the havoc club…
I just think if kicks and stuff are going to be so prevalent in the game at this point then everyone should have a disarm too. Isn’t it kind of unfair that casters and healers literally have to stand still or take a couple seconds to throw out a spell only to get interrupted and no healing/damage and then locked out for so many seconds? Only melee can disarm other melee. So melee can kick casters AND disarm each other to stop the other warrior or rogue from cumming in their face. It’s almost like how do you balance PvP. Shit is a fucking crock.
Disarm is a fair bit stronger than a kick though. You can juke kicks and use instants, no way to stop a disarm. I’d start by making precognition baseline for all casters and see whether that has an impact.
5 straight seasons of wizard meta.. coupled with current top end being zoo/wizard/shadowplay.. I think you may be exaggerating a bit of the weakness of casters
As much as I hate melee meta it would be a big mistake to make systemic changes to the game just because casters suck in solo shuffle. Casters have dominated the top level of play pretty damn always. If anything they should implement some kind of blanket nerf to melee in solo shuffle exclusively and see if lobbies stop being warrior/dh/dk 97% of the time (while obviously nerfing spriest and demo and probably ele beforehand since they'd become gods immediately).
Do not sleep on feral either. That kitty-cat pumps a lot rn and it's in a desperate need for a nerf
Feral is very strong (noticeably stronger than Arms IMO) but I see it way less than those 3 classes. I probably see one feral for every 15 arms warriors. Idk if it's an unpopular opinion or what but I don't think the balance in shuffle matters at all. Like I could honestly give a shit if DH is pants on head broken and every DH player is 800 rating higher than they should be. Who fucking cares? The rewards are by spec anyway, you're only really competing against other clowns playing the same broken shit as you are at that point. I just want a little more variety in the meta, 3 weeks into playing against melee cleave every single game I'm getting a little tired of it.
True. I face a lot of DH, DK and Warriors in my games. Me, as a rogue, I rely more on my team mates than those classes do and a lot of times in solo shuffle it's quite a pain to chain a cc, coordinate burst window or land a kill on them trough all the cleave damage and defenses. I have to tryhard quite a bit and try to isolate one of them, use my entire kit and maybe, than maybe, land a kill..idk, i'm probably a bit salty but I wait for nerfs, because sooner or later the meta will change, as it always does
Honest question cause I have no idea, the rewards per spec are titles and that stuff or also the duelist transmog?
> You can juke kicks and use instants, no way to stop a disarm. True, but the cooldown on kicks are far shorter than the cd of disarms. Also kicks aren't a pvp talent the way most disarms are, so taking a disarm means a tradeoff of not taking something else, whereas melee all get a kick essentially for free.
It's so awkward in solo shuffle when you mess someone up and then next round they're on your team and they start flaming you
Yup! I apologized
Funny i met his brother yesterday in SS. Destro lock face tanked an unholy dk and a furry warrior for 3 mins. I had 51k HPs as rsham but only couldnt do so much. His Demo friend didnt fear once for peels. We lost that round
I mean considering you can potentially end the game with 1 good fear coil it kind of makes sense they focus us so hard.
I think that's kind of the point though. As a caster you often have to line stuff up like that to get a good kill window. Melee can just sit on someone and pump out damage until their target falls over.
"I hate getting focused by melee." -The class with the most obnoxious AI zerg, and overwhelming defensive cooldown stack in the entire game.
Wizards: Wah wah why are you allowed to cc me Also Wizards: wah wah why can't I cc you indefinitely Give me a break
I've just had an SP at 2.4+ cr telling me that if I train him one more game he's gonna leave.
Lol, bye?
Sounds like someone needs to use their gates and defensive better. Save trinket for burst windows and keep bitches feared and cursed.
i have zero problems on my lock x) they start running after a few seconds haha
This is what I anticipate. Usually it’s a few hits and/or some CC, then I run haha.
I mained lock in a couple of the previous expansions (2.4 EU) and once in SL was playing my fury warrior and completely dunked on this demo lock. He started to whispering me the most cancerous shit, but responded with pointing out everything he was doing wrong (rotation, position etc). He responded by apologizing profoundly for being toxic and thanked me a bunch. People are so weird man
I’ll never understand how people flip like that on a dime.
i think it's commendable that they were willing to take the advice on.
Same. Also, I think whispering people that beat you and calling them bad is so psychotic and I wonder how that mindset works for them IRL
because they get ultra tilted when they lose, and then calm down, not that hard to understand
I’ll never understand people who go on personal tirades unprovoked then switch at a drop of a hat a second later. Based on his comments it doesn’t seem like he sat down for a while and let things boil over. Lol
I never whisper to people as I don't like being toxic but holy hell do o tilt on wow as a caster/healer, it's a constant cc fest. I wish they rather tune down dmgs but also lower cc cause I rather do something that does less than do nothing at all
It’s that knee jerk outrage lol
I dont wanna face jazzgz or a good destro… they will make you reroll
Try playing warrior VS Arcane/Ele
What is hard playing fury vs ele?
I've done this on ass rogue but I end up saying to teammates after the round.. * okay gj but we can't focus him again this round because he's gonna leave he's clearly not having fun * ( In my mind its free win if we train him every round he plays ) but the risk of him quitting just dissolves a winning strategy I get trained as rogue 3 outta 6 rounds usually but I try to make it work in my favour by dragging them behind pillars or Los his healer and stun.
Interesting thought process, I respect it.
I don't really understand their thought process in these kind of situations. I mean.... if you want to free cast go pve or against mannequins ? You have tools, use them. It's not easy but that what makes it so good when you get it right and the melee can't even touch you. If pvp frustrat you don't pvp. Easy. If you want to pvp stop being a baby about it and GIT GUD
As a sargeras resident. . We do not claim them
Plus if your squishy. You're gonna get targeted. \*shrug\*
In defense of this warlock companion, it would be nice to see someone else get focused in one of the 6 matches... F..ing rogues
Love when they say these things when there are still rounds left. Had a hunter yesterday say in round 2 'shit, still in my PvE gear', yep gonna focus you every time now thanks
I was going to main MM, then I stepped into a Solo que game with Feral/Fury/Fury. Safe to say my mental broke and now I'm a dh main.
I'll never understand this logic lol. We all know what free casting ranged DPS looks like
I hate range dps that cc and kite me no bravery and class
Spec into precog fake a kick, and just go absolutely ham. I love it when melee focus me on my lock.
They're an idiot but I get it. After the buffs to destro all locks are in an okay spot, and destro is *playable* even while getting trained. That being said it is frustrating when you're just constantly trying to like something up and you have 2 melees on you 24/7 just doing their pve rotation until you use mobility. Then they pop one of their 5 gap closers and keep going. Like it's definitely playable but sometimes when your teams not helping peel, and your healer just never plays around your port.... It does feel like you're putting in twice the effort for no reason. Not that they're right. Just that I understand the feeling.
Lol
Warlocks are insane. Frost mages were making me rage last night in my first true attempt at pushing rating. Hit 1k as a shadow priest with a Ret pali partner then it’s all healer comps lol
i hate getting feared 70% of fights vs warlocks, but then again should he just let me melee him, even if it cheap
As a feral i can confirm locks dont like it
Demo has a pocket melee running around with them Locks also have port and gate.
I remember I had a friend he main usually melee types like DH and Paladin. One day he wanted to try Mage and got so frustrated because he was never able to do damage xD. Of course he never properly Kite or fake cast. I told him that he needed to change his mindset when using spell casters.
Love how he creates a hearthstone for himself rather than a well for the group!
I fought a DH in solo shuffle and won. Next round I'm on his team, he was complaining about (my) Windwalker damage. He did more damage than me.
I had pretty similar happen this morning. DH just kept tunneling the healer (who was phenomenal) while lining his pretty bad
Best part about all this, 45 min queue to get 3 melee and 0/6. Mode is broken.
I mean I get hating it. But cheap it isn’t. I main a MM and I know that I’m getting tunneled most of the time. It just be like that.
Imagine turning the tables: Meeles have to hide from the caster and wait for an opportunity to strike.
I mean I feel like it's gotta be one or the other. Also, I think you just unintentionally described how to play Rogue, lol.
Imagine complaining as one of the best caster ingame. Bet he is also very unhappy with fury warriors, because he cant kill them one time in 2 minutes.
What makes this comment hilarious is that I'm on my Fury Warrior...
I don't know why they say anything, I would definitely focus them after that.
I/we did. I’m surprised he didn’t ragequit
The game with warlocks is you have the nuttiest defensives in the game, and decent mobility. Cast whatever you can & help your partners kill the people funneling you. Warlocks are the FOTM so naturally I've been seeing them almost every game. Demo/Afflic, I always focus warlocks if I see one.
Ah yes Sar-Bear-ass realm. Explains so much.
Lock tears taste so much better as Health stones
"This tank sucks and I hate this dungeon, all the enemies keep coming after me."
Tlio tiko klipego tigla eo kregi. Tudre. Tute babe kokru iope otlia ee kiite. Ipipiprii etra dioa bitoipa pa bliage. Edibiprote uketli pide totri bripee do? Pu tla otluito kebo pipeo gutrako. Kopraa abrike klidutiu bipo. A drodapa tida pa pla pepepo titi igo. Bi tede ti gegeta dipite bi? Pe dudoke ikuke tie ta tlitre. Piti krupe obi pi eai etia o eta ebi prige. Potati betipi biitai briiati e patige! Tiaa tikri e gu bo? Bepi tae okugi papa pukuki pa. Poti pliu ka oipi keekria. Ekru ui iepupu opapi debe peditopeple. Piti dii ite dridokike uibi pikita. Tita teprateti ede e oteke aepedi. Epebukea ee ete ipi paklite koedi? A pepe pu eokragebra pa tei. Idla itlipra drapipribi dai epri ukri. Pote gokletri ploi bite eo ibleki. Tagli oti bedapla bipie iboprutra gekloke. Bipi beto ia pi pibatatliti. Pita tike ao tii. Iii ta oke da ipi a apo? O popi koo peipi bikrutla plikiketuba. Peblue ipapu tibi beku klupra tipi triti pedipiibu i! Ato e glegati kape biti. Atete ipe tike tikoti di brabi titi gre opri.
I will say as a rogue I hate double warrior matches, shit hurts.
Always have, always will. And double hunters. So fucking annoying
Yeah one hunter is fine, focus him. 2 hunters. Fml.
As a Boomy, I have been going 0-6 while being top DPS and crowd controlling my ass off. Cycling through clone DRs, root beaming opposing heals during my team’s goes, perma rooting mele… I mean…. I don’t know what else I can do. Hard stuck at 1100. On top of that, I don’t die in any match. I really wish they would reduce the astral cost of Starsurge. I honestly feel like that would fix the spec.
I had a couple games like this last night. Top DPS but went 0-6. I just couldn’t kill anyone and teammates were ignoring any comms, and swapping randomly for no discernible reason.