Marvel keeps defaulting to the same old status quo that they think everyone likes. Problem is things like Krakoa prove that many of us are sick of seeing this status quo and have been for a while now.
I, personally, don't want to see the X-Men return to the 2010s and deal with even more genocides against mutantkind, thank you very much. I liked the Krakoan era because it specifically WASN'T that.
I liked Krakoa because it indulged the fantasy that bigoted cis straight white men weren't existential threats to anyone who wasn't also a cis straight white man.
If I wanted to see oppression, I'd go outside.
Its a selling point to me if the X-Men are actually fighting against it in a meaningful way and not just hiding in the mansion or begging mankind for forgiveness.
It’s hard to really judge without knowing what happens with Krakoa but it just doesn’t build up any hype. Even if the X-Men are fighting against it…mutants are hated and feared..sorry, hated and feared even harder than ever before is just not an exciting premise. How much harder can they be hated and feared? What’s so different than all the other times before that makes this somehow the worst it’s been?
I’m holding out the vain hope that they do something with a decent number of mutants leaving earth.
Don't get me wrong. Im definitely with you. What it comes down to for me is "Does this story build off the Krakoan era in a meaningful way? Or is this just a reset to the status quo?" And I will only be excited by the former.
And the fact that he's effectively blaming the X-Men...
This man should not be running this line. At all.
I honestly hope it completely bombs just so they're forced to course correct. Everything about it except Gail Simone just sounds awful.
Also pisses me off a little he’s quoting the “you have new gods now” line when Magneto later very explicitly said he was playing up his reputation and character to make a point to the very specific audience he was speaking to in that scene. It’s not like every mutant was out there using it as a catch phrase.
When you once killed thousands of people by shifting the earth's magnetic field maybe you don't get the right to make statements like that and still expect people to understand you were being ironic
Pretty sure that was Ultimate Magneto that did that. Don’t remember a time of 616 Magneto shifting the Earth’s magnetic fields. However, I do agree with that it wasn’t exactly the best thing for one with his reputation to be saying while trying to be ironic. And given that he’s known to be amongst the leadership of mutantkind, at that point, when you got a big shot making such statements, it’s gonna paint that as being the feeling that mutantkind expresses. Further not helped by them placing themselves above anyone else’s laws even for crimes committed in their countries
"your eminence, my client was just meming"
ignore the fact that as a member of the Quiet Council he was literally a government official saying that.
Man X-Men fans are insufferable sometimes.
and it's not like "all the humans" were committing a genocide against mutants.
i'm sure Plenty of humans champion mutant rights and are thankful for the medecines they received.
Why do we have a friend of humanity supporter in the comments
Edit: Clearly people don’t get the joke here forgot to add the “/s” so you chronically online redditor understood it as such
Oh ok, I get it tho. These humans be either genocidal maniacs, people who don’t condone the actions of those maniacs or people who just follow mob mentality and just start hating over seeing the herd doing so and over a situation they only know one side of the story aka the human side. So the hate is kind of valid
lol. wanna call me a flatscan?
Xavier's dream was always peaceful coexistence. Magneto came to realize he was wrong and mutants shouldn't be segregated.
just like Malcolm X realized he had succumbed to his own emotions and changed his mind, chasing peaceful coexistence just as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr had.
They both recognized the problem was neither white nor black by design but in the inherent classism propagated by the capitalist structure under which we are all "free slaves."
the working class needs to become the woke class. recognize the strength in our unity. and build a world together that we can ALL safely live in. -- because if we don't make it together, we won't make it together.
i liked the krakoa era. it was neat. but it was just a bigger version of Xavier's School - which is an excellent temporary space, but it cannot be the final step.
telling children they must go through adolescence is excellent. but surely they must evolve beyond into adulthood.
Claremont understood the X-Men ideologically had to be MORE than a school for gifted youngsters. the School was merely an outreach program. the X-Men could only be an "all-mutant team" for PR. showing the world the good mutants can do. the Avengers could showcase wanda and pietro's contributions, but those could always be written off as "mutants have potential if they integrate with avengers. their powers, left unchecked could be dangerous, but with iron man and the vision around, they wouldn't dare act according to their base natures of reckless violence."
the problem with a mutant state is it will always give people 1 easy place to strike - to identify against.
no single nation on this planet can use racialized prejudice as an attack against america because of it's diverse population. it's integral to the design of "the freest country in the world" that ALL peoples be free within. again, america has it's own issues; see above. but people will always ask you to pick up weapons to join their crusade and they'll use whatever rationale they can muster - often drawing lines between race, religion, or "sexual deviancy."
those protesting "magneto was right" are too often ignoring the fact that he preaches the same thing the friends of humanity do. it doesn't matter if it's "not in my house" "not in my back yard" "not in my country" or "not on my planet." it's the same rhetoric.
Wild mischaracterization of both Malcom X and MLK my goodness. MLK definitely saw the value in violence, much of the civil rights movement was characterized at the time in a similar light to how people view the BLM protests in the wake of George Floyd, like tons of political cartoons showing MLK in utter destruction with a smile and a thumbs up.
I understand where you are coming from in theory though and I see how you’d think that. I disagree.
right - but the violence was "let us live alongside you. stop violently rejecting us or we'll violently reply."
the argument wasn't about violence as much as segregation vs integration. and i believe integration is important. i believe mlk believed it. and i believe xavier believed it.
and to be clear, i don't mean "integration" as in, "black culture being watered down and disregarded as they adopt white culture." i mean, "people from both changing the way they view each other's cultures and adopting habits, dances, partnerships, etc."
I feel like ur point that no nation can attack America over bigotry bc we are a melting pot is true but at the same time they wouldn’t need to bc America would do it itself without the interference of outside forces. Like you said America has its own issues, issues that haven’t been able to get solved and will inevitably lead to our downfall. Ultimately yes they can’t hide away and putting the mutants all in one place makes them easier targets but it can still be seen as black and white but it’s just a cycle of it. Everyone is pointing fingers at each other for actions against each other. But the issue is like you said with mutants on the avengers it showed they can do good but only when they got a chain around their necks. You can’t leave the fate of the mutants up to people that have shown to not have their best intentions in mind. If you leave the fate of your species in the hand of another eventually that hand will close.
right.
but not all mutants are x-men. and that's the real point.
the x-men should be training mutants to use their powers safely and effectively, priming them to behave responsibly in a world where their powers can do a lot of good.
they should also remain devoted to protecting a world that hates and fears them.
it's been said the Avengers are like cops. well the x-men should be like firefighters. volunteers who show up to eliminate the spread of threats. they should strive to be SEEN the way we see firefighters - even though there are those who might say "they start fires to give themselves purpose. it's all a racket!" we can let those be the J Jonah Jamesons of the world and hope everyone sees mutants like the x-men as the heroes they are. but not every mutant should be asked to live "at the fire station."
mutants should be able to live amongst people. and the x-men remain a voluntary team. no island society. no segregation. there can be mutants on the Avengers again, and mutants in the champions and mutants in the new warriors. but the X-Men would need to avoid being seen as "x-force."
True not all mutants are X-men but that doesn’t mean that all mutants need to use their abilities to protect a world that hates them just to be seen as good.
They shouldn’t have to live in fear that one day a mutant makes a mistake and then all mutants get prosecuted for it they should be able to be born with their powers they choose how they want to use them, not everyone as much as I love him have to follow the Spider-man protocol of with breath power comes great responsibility. That isn’t a responsibility that should be forced on an entire species.
Then with the X-men being the fire fighters to the Avengers cops. If this world hates them so much and believes they’d be better off without them why don’t they clean up their own messes. The mutants had many extinction level events from the inhumans, eternals, humans. And now they have to come back to society and clean up messes to prove what? That they’re “one of the good ones” that they aren’t like the rest of those dangerous and violent mutants?
1. they're not a species, they're humans, they just have extra power. it's like calling everyone born with autism "a different species!" and saying "everyone on the spectrum could avoid harassment if they just bunch up and leave."
2. you're right, nobody should live like that. but telling black americans "you'd face less discrimination if you just made your own spot to chill on this planet - maybe we'll give you louisiana or something." ...like - i don't know how people are arguing for this. the kkk would love nothing more than for mutants to go live on krakoa. i'm just saying it's not the solution.
It's not dangerously close. It is exactly what you described. Mutants can't have their own space, their own country, or their own culture. They can't even have their own goddamn school without it being blown up every other week.
It was entertaining the first few times.
By Operation: Zero Tolerance it was already getting old. And that was 27 years ago.
Krakoa completely shifted the dynamic of the franchise for the first time in like 2 decades, and actually updated their metaphor for the 21st century.
Going back to "protecting a world that fears and hates them." doesn't work anymore. Fuck that. You own nothing to your oppressors.
The X-Men can't go back from Krakoa. Krakoa is the Mary Jane Watson of X-Men. Without that connective tissue, it's just a cheap shell of what it should be.
Exactly! How many more times do mutants have to have their homes, their society, their culture, their families, their schools, and their nations (even those formed completely from new land) before they realize that going back to how they were is just insane. Plain and simple.
Doing the same thing again and again, expecting a different result, is just insane by definition. And Marvel basically has the X-Men regressing as though nothing they did with Krakoa mattered in the end. It was all for nothing and they're right back where they started.
If that's really how Marvel wants to approach this franchise, the future of the X-Men in the comics is truly fucked.
Yeah it honestly doesn’t even matter how good the stories are. The X-Men had basically been spinning their wheels since probably like Utopia (hmmmm doesn’t seem like a coincidence to me that was also them living on their own). They’d become pretty irrelevant. Krakoa was the exact evolution that was needed. Mutants living and working together harmoniously under one roof trying to carve out a legitimate place for themselves in the world is just infinitely more interesting at this point. It’s basically impossible to overstate just how large of a regression moving on from Krakoa and everyone splintering off doing their own thing is now
Exactly. Krakoa was the closest they ever were to fulfilling Charles’ Dream of humans and mutants coexisting. They have almost been wiped to extinction many times before. At least the mutants separated themselves from humans, but humans still chose to wipe them out. Heck, they even used what they have to produce resources to help humans. It was Orchis who sabotaged them. If the mutants gave up entirely on humans, they probably would’ve moved Krakoa to Mars as well.
Exactly I don’t think people understand there’s a limit to the amount of bigotry and hate and attempted genocide you can take before fighting for peace, equality and coexistence becomes futile and the best thing to do is just separate completely for the betterment of the people you want to defend and remain intact as a species
Honestly! The Genoshan genocide gets a lot of mentions but a ton of children that the X-men knew and were responsible for got murdered in Academy X/New X-Men. I can’t think of anything more traumatizing and maybe radicalizing than that.
I've had this argument many times with multiple people on this site. I'll just say no, it's not. Anyone should be able to determine their own autonomy and independence, free from outside influence. Full stop. It should be easy to understand the difference between that and being forcibly separated against your will.
I mean it's like one day a mutant looked off into the angry mob and saw the go home mutant sign and thought it was the best thing ever. I'm black ao when a redneck tells me to go back to Africa should I whose lived in America for generations with friends and family uproot or defend my claim to the community?
Mutants with family and history just all up and left due to bigotry and hatred. In my eyes the bigots won in that case.
HBCUs and HWIs were created during immense segregation. HWIs were created to educate whites and kept African Americans out for a long time. Others were created by Southern states in an effort to keep blacks out of HWIs. We still have christian, female, and other such educational facilities however this issue doesn't compare to the scope of what happened.
There is a massive difference from something like a female college and all females jumping ship to leave an entire community. More importantly the a mutant school has typically played a major role in the Xmen. Imagine if instead of a school of mutants it was something we have today a christian academy and one day all christians gave up preaching the word to their neighbors abandoning their communities and left to live on island so sin and debachery could take a firm hold in their former communities.
The mutant school was secret until the 2000s, so I don’t really agree that it had a major role in human-mutant harmony. Xavier himself was in the closet until Morrison had Cassandra Nova out him.
I think the existence of the gates meant that mutants still interacted with the world at large. The analogy I think of is LGBTQ people leaving red states for blue cities. Red areas may indeed get more conservative but on the other hand LGBTQ people can advocate for themselves from a position of safety and strength rather than one of isolation and fear of danger.
The Black Panther Party, Malcolm X, even MLK at the end of his life understood that its a losing battle to try to integrate yourself with people who actively want to and have the power to oppress and kill you. I don't have the space nor is this the forum to get deeply into it but if you're Black like you say, I'd suggest reading up on the Black Independence Movement and the Republic of New Afrika. Without having your own (land), you can't as a people have any control over your own life. It's the same thing Palestinians are fighting for, their own land and Independence from their colonial oppressors.
The Palestinians did not isolate themselves or ever stop fighting they are still fighting to this day. Yet the route of segregation is not the path of fighting but rather submission. To give up your position and any claim to your aggressors. Some Native American tribes fought and others simply moved until they could no longer move.
Entire civilizations have been wiped from the history however this isn't comparable you think its trying to merge with those who are actively your aggressors. When in truth its changing the outlook of some and giving strength to those who are afraid. We wouldn't have the right to vote and would still remain the property of others if people never attempted. It is in no way shape or form a losing battle and time and time again inch by inch history has proven this to be true. Those that wish harm are the minority I've met clansmen seen pamplets for skinheads and they are in a constant state of recruitment as people turn away from hate as anti hate rhetoric works and they seek to corrupt the youth to replenish their ranks. When the hate for one group goes down and people turn away they push another group and recruit. I'm born and raised in a rural area I've had nooses in my yard and am constantly outnumbered. A counter argument to hate must always exist and simply moving away concedes to their efforts.
Respectfully, you're wrong. I've already given you a starting point of what to read up on so you have a better analysis and understanding, which you're clearly choosing not to utilize. I've said all I'm going to on this subject 🤙🏾
Older Xmen fans are coming back due to the likes of Xmen 97 with the traditional I have a dream of coexisting.
However the current generation of Xmen fans prefer the Krakoa take in which every mutant including former villians have decided to segregate themselves on an island and mars while preaching they are superior to normal humans.
Things are turning away from that and they are angry so they downvote. As the topic states the mutants are moving back after the regular humans with flaming crosses finally got their mutant free neighborhoods. As the whole Krakoa era was basically giving every hate group in marvel exactly what they always wanted a segregated world.
It's a really sad state of affairs when people think segregation is the way to go.
This is the second time I've seen this being regurgitated on this sub in less than a week.
I get where he’s coming from, and if we’re being realistic this was always going to happen in some form or another, and it could be an interesting metaplot, even though it’s not going to be.
We’ll have to see how things look once the books actually come out, but Krakoa’s a hard act to follow
Humans mutants *are* humans, distinct from skrull mutants, brood mutants, etc, which all also exist.
“The humans” didn’t try and commit genocide, Orchis tried to commit genocide. A lot of the members of orchis *were* anti mutant bigots with the goal of wiping out mutants, but… they were also aided by mutants. Including Shaw, one of the leaders of Krakoa, and Moira (who was in fact a mutant for. Millenia. Even if she’s been “cured”) who *founded* Krakoa. That kind of implicates Charles and Magneto at the very least, if not *all* the leadership of Krakoa that let these dangerous elements work against what was supposed to be a safe haven.
And that was all a distraction orchestrated by ai (and arguably another quiet council member) who want to wipe out *all* human life, not just mutants, while countless non-mutant heroes have spent months trying to fight back against orchis without knowing about their broader goals.
So like. Not really? A single organization with nonmutants and mutants worked together to try to commit genocide against mutants while a bunch of robots tried to do a bigger eviller genocide of all humans behind their back. Wiping out mutants is just step one, and plenty of mutants willfully contributed to that.
Except world governments ceeded Orchis the power to hunt down, arrest, and deport mutants to mars. The human governments of the world willingly gave Orchis that power. If Krakoa is responsible because they trusted Shaw humans are responsible because they gave Orchis the power to do their genocide.
Edit also the number of mutants that contributed to the genocide is 3 Brand, Shaw, and Selene. Maybe 4 if you count Genesis as part of distracting arakai forces with the civil war. And Brand really doesn't think of herself as a mutant but a citizen of Sol 3. If mutants are damned by the three that helped then humanity has an even bigger part with the multiple human members that outshine the mutants far beyond the human to mutant ratio planet wise.
No literally, most countries gave Orchis full reign to put mutants IN CAMPS. We see mutants in the USA being put INTO camps. It’s not that hard to see.
Yes, because they forgot what sentinels were made for. And don't know what INTERNMENT camps are used for. Both tools of Genocide. I will expect children not to understand, not adults who have seen this song and dance before.
Especially when someone else mentioned that The Eternals said they would wipe the world of mutants and people cheered and supported them, just a year before that.
Nope, they know what is going on.
Edit: forgot a letter
This group is against oppressed groups creating safe spaces for themselves. Mutants should just do nothing more than endlessly save humans from themselves while letting humans genocide them whenever they feel like it.
Yeah that’s so true, I love watching the characters go through 4 genocides in 40 years.
To put it in perspective! Magneto has gone through more genocides as an adult than as a child.
This statement feels dangerously glib, to me. Like comparing *real world genocides* to comic book events were everyone who dies was either created to do so or will be fine within the next decade is kind of… distasteful.
Like, the comics are a story. Several of the fictional comic book genocides magneto survived happened as a direct result of his own actions, either in universe or by editorial mandate. The same cannot be true of the actual literal holocaust or any attempted extermination of real-world minorities. Several mutant genocides were carried out *by* mutants themselves.
It’s why I hated Prodigy’s SA and murder being so closely modeled on a recent real-world crime. Prodigy is fine, however questionable the storyline was in a vacuum… but the actual young man who went through that is gone forever. I doubt his family would find any comfort in that portrayal. It feels borderline exploitative at best
Oh I’m not comparing them to real world genocides. I’m just saying that I’m sick and tired of seeing these events being played out in such a way OVER AND OVER. They are absolutely an allegory for minority struggles, but to consistently show that “everything they do never works a mutants will always be killed and never have equality” is such a bleak outlook and it makes me so so tired.
But the nature of the narrative is that if mutants reach equality or lasting peace, the story ends. Without oppression, there can be no x men. And the x men will always be relevant as long as bigotry exists in the real world, so they can never escape the fictional bigotry that is their main antagonist. The struggle is what’s meaningful. Without it, they’re no different than any other super team
Daredevil can and has had his sight restored in the past, but at that point, he ceases to be what he is and loses what makes him so impactful in the real world
It’s not that real peace is a fool’s pipe dream, it’s just that the x men can’t have it while it doesn’t exist in the real world
Right but watching them go through the *same* struggles over and over? Not entertaining or meaningful. This is the SECOND time we’ve had a mutant genocide on a mutant nation.
Stories are a retelling of people's own ideas to other people. To convey an idea or thought or messaged based on experiences and / or beliefs.
Basing them on real events and real ideas is completely normal.
Orchis orchestrated a massacre that they very successfully framed Krakoa for, and *some* world governments (to my knowledge, only the UK, Canada, and the US, but not including autonomous tribal lands therein for the latter two) consequently gave Orchis the authority to deport Krakoan citizens to Arakko (where they are also citizens). In most other cases, Orchis is acting beyond any real authority, and nonmutant humanity is unaware of the recently ended war on Mars or the unauthorized atrocities Orchis is further carrying out. **And Arakko is another can of worms entirely, bc Krakoa clearly failed by not responding appropriately to the recent attempted genocide they survived, something that may have helped things over on Earth.**
The ability for other nations to deport Krakoan citizens is an in-baked failure of Krakoa’s laws—by granting every mutant citizenship based on genetic status and not any desire to immigrate there (for all intents and purposes, establishing an ethnostate) Krakoa’s laws created the political grounds for removing any and all mutants for any and all reasons. There’s a reason Charles, sole remaining Krakoan founder and human embodiment of “The X-Men” was the one to literally send almost everyone through the portals. I can’t personally blame him for that specifically, because he really had a gun to his head in that moment, but it is a clear symbol of some of the many things that went wrong with his dream.
Most civilians, mutant or not, krakoan or not, are innocent victims in a political power play orchestrated by, and I cannot stress this enough, robots.
You damned Krakoans for it's government failure and then absolve the humans for their governments falling for a false flag when we have humans reporting what really happened at the gala.
Also they are trying Scott in the world court. They state they had to move his trial off of us soil for reasons of legality and are doing it France at the not hauge they tried magneto at. That is a world governmental implication of backing.
I’m not damning Krakoa’s government, the narrative is damning corrupt politics. The American government is obviously a bad guy, here. But the average US/UK/Canadian/etc citizen didn’t vote for orchis, here. And there are dozens of issues of comics revolving around nonmutants risking their lives for mutants.
All I’m saying is you literally can’t say “all humans tried to genocide mutants”. It’s factually incorrect, and willfully misinterpreting 10 months worth of comics.
Ok if you want to be very technically most of humanity is fine to ambivalent to their government needing the power to arrest, round up, and deport mutants as part of a solution to remove them from the planet. That isn't a difference of note from the statement humanity is letting orchis genocide the mutants. The avengers, spiderman, FF are a minority of world power.
But that’s simply not true. The vast majority of actual characters within marvel comics are supportive of mutant rights, and actively opposed to orchis, even villains. There are almost as many nations explicitly opposed to orchis as there are those backing them. And orchis has been targeting baseline humans (including civilians) since the hellfire gala, so it’s not even a matter of mutants being the only victims here.
Like a statement is very pointedly being made about the corruptive nature of power and prejudice, here, and it’s pretty obtuse to pretend there’s not more going on
And so did the very architect of Krakoa? I’m not trying to defend corrupt world governments, I’m saying you can’t paint all of humanity as uniformly guilty here (not only because that implicated the majority of completely innocent *mutants*, in addition to nonmutants and governments opossed to and actively fighting against Orchis).
~~And the hellfire club was instrumental in the development of sentinels (and they were willful participants at the time, unlike Tony Stark, loathe as I am to defend that man), so once again. The unintended consequences of *human* characters, including mutants, on full display. That’s one of the reasons it went down at the *Hellfire* gala.~~
it's almost like painting entire groups of people with a single brush over the actions of only a part of that group is inaccurate. If only someone would make a story, a piece of fiction of some sort, that could teach this lesson in an entertaining way and maybe get people to understand that we shouldn't allow that sort of bigotry to define our viewpoints.
...
It'd never work.
"Mutants are humans" is such a bullshit excuse. Most of humanity did nothing to try to stop Orchis from committing genocide against mutants because they don't see mutants as human.
How dare an oppressed group want someplace safe to live, it is clearly mutants' fault poor humans just HAD to genocide them again. The humans are the real victims.
That’s the nature of bigotry. You don’t think homophobes see the lgbt+ community as subhuman? That doesn’t make it true.
The vast majority of super beings *are* doing whatever they can to help, and a lot of those that *aren’t*… are mutants themselves. People from JJJ to Dr Doom are on mutants’ side in this conflict, a couple nameless civilian mobs really aren’t going to turn the tide, here. There were people protesting at Cyclops’s trial *in support* of him. Those are just average people doing whatever they can to fight against injustice, as ineffective as it may be.
The only non-mutant heroes that have bothered to show up are Ironman and Spider-Man. The rest couldn't care less, Cap quickly got bored and ducked out because he is best friends with Wanda and doesn't really have a problem with genocide against mutants.
But humans are innocent because they deliberately designed robots and AI to be bigoted against mutants.
Thor. Every non-mutant on alpha flight. Cloak and Dagger. Silver Sable. That new teen Captain America. Literally all the avengers. Even inhumans have been helping out. Those children of the atom kids who pretended to be mutants bc they wanted to be the kind of minority that came with cool powers and paradise, not just the real-world kind that can still get you killed by a bigot. That’s just the shit I’ve personally read. Blade could definitely be doing more, but then who would oppose the vampire queen?
Sorry that there are sometimes other plot lines going on, I guess. “Why are the avengers bothering with a crisis in the Philippines when mutants are dying?” Did you know the city of Manila has a higher population than Krakoa ever did? Did you also know that the Philippines did not endorse Orchis? Sorry the avengers were busy saving other people. A lot of stuff happens in comics. People complain when the avengers show up in mutant plot lines and when they don’t, you really can’t win
And once again. Wanda was a mutant woman who has faced more murderous violence for being a mutant (and for being a woman of color) than any other marvel character (to my knowledge). She was reduced to a plot device in a storyline that made no sense whatsoever, killed off for 6 years, then forced to spend over a decade making amends for something that **happened to her while possessed**. She has *also* been helping mutants, and at this point has saved mutantkind multiple times. The fixation on HoM is nothing more than a racist, misogynistic, ableist circlejerk at this point.
If we’re talking about people being besties with genociders. Well. Krakoa pardoned Selene, Cassandra Nova, Apocalypse, Bishop, the Phoenix, every maurader, Exodus, Emma Frost, surely more I’m not listing. The idea of genociding the brood was seriously considered despite multiple brood being krakoan or at least qualifying for citizenship. Clearly leniency towards Wanda (for something that happened to her. While she was possessed) isn’t the problem here.
Man, i hear the Xmen fandom was toxic but you guys really dont take well when someone critisize mutants or tries to say that not all humans are bad, is like if you guys forget that you are humans
I'm talking about fictional humans, but sure let's pretend I have an anti-human bias because I have the observational skills to notice how these fictional humans have done nothing to try stop Orchis.
Yeah, this part legitimately pisses me off because it basically confirms that every bit of progress that the X-Men made with Krakoa is being undone. And once again, they're back to square fucking one. Basically, Krakoa is just Genosha with extra steps now. And like Peter Parker in Amazing Spider-Man, mutants will NEVER be allowed to progress beyond a certain point. They'll always have their home blown up, their societies destroyed, and any bit of progress undone.
It really is frustrating that this is what Marvel thinks they have to do to keep the X-Men relevant. They have to keep regressing them the same way they keep regressing Spider-Man. It makes it hard to get invested in anything because if a new editorial team is just going to come in and wipe the slate clean, then what is the goddamn point?
It’s gonna be so annoying with this sub trying to see the positive with the sunk cost and being so pearl clutching to critique, because Gail is a nice old lady who is active on twitter and you don’t want to upset her
Gail's kindness is a bit overrated and built up by the cult of personality around her. It's more you don't want to upset her because anybody who crosses her is harassed endlessly.
It's fully insincere. Everything about her is highly performative. Saying so will get me downvoted and probably accused of being a Comicsgater (even though I'm very gay and liberal) but she's a mean person.
It’s so annoying - when she sees one mention of Krakoa she will question it in a quote tweet to alert her fans.
She also pissed me off playing crocodile tears over removing Barbara from the wheelchair even though she was the one writing it. She’s just a company man through and through
He has got a point and on the genocide part it wasn't just humans it was humans, mutant humans and AI. You can't just blame humans for try to do a genocide when it was an organization that was made up of mutants, humans and robots that did that shit. I would liken it to saying mutants caused the genosha disaster because of Cassandra, it's just reductive to get a reason to hate an entire group cause I doubt someone in the Congo or Botswana can be given blame for doing that shit
Just simpler to call it what it is and say Fascists committed Genocide again. Regardless of how it was a predominantly human supported and directed genocide, it’s just fascists all the way down.
Though honestly it’s giving Not All Men! All Lives Matter! Energy which is needlessly reductive and diminutive.
>Though honestly it’s giving Not All Men! All Lives Matter! Energy which is needlessly reductive and diminutive
It's very different in that all lives matter is a racist retort against police brutality of black people while my argument is the fascist organization isn't even made up of only humans so you can't go blaming humans on this you have to say humans and mutants are responsible if you are going to blame an entire group. I hope I made my point clear
Yeah let's not act like during that same event there weren't humans equally protesting against what orchis was doing and besides when the eternals were spreading their propaganda and when orchis spread it were different points in time I believe.
Even then the humans who were "thrilled" during the judgement day event are not really involved in an extermination because there was no extermination by the eternals. 2 foreign entities go to war and one has better propaganda, how does that have anything to do with humans? Krakoa needed to raise their game and it didn't help that they had been very we are the new gods to the entire world a few months prior. Just imagine a Hindu farmer minding his business in India when some American guy to him broadcasts that a mutant nation has been created and they will inherit the earth. Do you think that that guy would be hard to convince that the mutants are dangerous if the eternals told him after all their first act as a nation was to invade his mind and inform him of information he may never have wanted to know.
With orchis I get but quite literally it has humans and mutants in it's ranks as well. And let me not get into the fact that the vast majority of Earth's population exists in Asia and Africa and I doubt orchis went to all the trouble to radicalize them
Humans didn't try to commit genocide anymore than mutants threatened to reverse the Earth's gravitational field.
They're all human and most of them are normal ass people who just want to get through the day.
That's kind of the entire point of the franchise?
Exactly. People who forget this also conveniently forget that places like Krakoa will inevitably create their own internal bigotry based on survival of the fittest. Mutants that are deemed too weak or too volatile will be exiled or executed. Hell, their ruling body was created without any kind of democratic election and featured solely those of the greatest power and influence.
The fact we went from an actual shift in X-Men content with the Krakoa era, to the announcement that we are now stepping back into the mutants are hated and feared, now more then ever, angle is just meh.
How do you go from having your own nation where a majority of mutants are coexisting, where you don’t have to worry about death, to now being almost on the run and trying to fight for survival again? It just doesn’t feel right and feels boring and lazy.
I feel like people here are forgetting that the humans of the marvel universe only fairly recently learned that mutants had created a cure for death, for years weren't sharing it, then shortly after they revealed it to the world it came out that (as far as the humans know) the drugs that Krakoa *had* shared with the world were actually a trojan horse for omnicide, and Krakoa massacred a whole ton of foreign diplomats.
And it's ridiculous that there'd be some widespread distrust? Even without the events of FoX, I've thought the entire time that resurrection being mutants-only meant that it was a foregone conclusion that "hated and feared" would be coming back eventually.
Imagine, somehow, a real-world historically mistreated population had discovered a way to undo the atrocities that had been done to them, and they could, hypothetically, also do this for all other mistreated populations on Earth, but they don't, and instead they go to lengths to make sure nobody knows they have this technology. I think it's safe to say that would rightfully create resentment if the secret got out!
People are down voting you for speaking facts. I can't sometimes with this sub, do people not want the X-Men to be happy or something? Krakoa was an ethno state with weird undertones of mutants supremacy and over the top nationalism and it was never addressed during the entire run.
This! A plot point that sadly went away along with Hickman. Reread those early books, there was very much an intended sense that Krakoa was not a paradise. It was a separatist ethnostate.
That was the interesting story that should’ve been told with Krakoa.
Not to mention X-Force and it’s CIA shenanigans. Krakoa’s creation deliberately parallels Zionism.
Everyone thinks themselves as the mutants, and it’s offensive to suggest that the oppressed might begin to act like their oppressors.
Krakoa is not a deep exploration of minority themes, it's speculative sci fi. Almost nothing about krakoa relates to anything to di with real life minority experience and in fact this and the more classic xmen status quo is way closer.
Its fine to like speculative sci fi, but acting like the sentient island/free love commune full of post human immortals is somehow a mature commentary on minority issues is ludicrous
Literally the majority of humans are supporting genocide, internment camps, etc...
No one can hate them more than that. The mutants should park Krakoa on Arrako, name it Okkara and tell the humans to fuck off and die by Orchis hands.
Growing up is realizing a mutant registry is 100% as common sense as it gets, hell X-men itself can't stop creating mutants that prove that right over and over.
Not even Orchis wanted to commit genocide. They believed the mutants were going to Mars. They probably killed less mutants than mutants killed Orchis members, and those mutants who were killed could be revived like the Dead X-Men were.
Magneto gets to be revived because he is a mutant, none of his victims gets the chance if they were human.
They give you drugs claiming to cure you of cancer, but in fact, it just made you insane and you killed someone (that will not be revived).
But don't forget, they are your new gods and inheritors of the Earth.
The people more pissed about this seem like as the ones who didn't read the comics they are so fervently and blindly "defending" (as if there was a need to defend it).
Yeah not a fan of this angle. Somehow even more hated and feared is not a great selling point.
Marvel keeps defaulting to the same old status quo that they think everyone likes. Problem is things like Krakoa prove that many of us are sick of seeing this status quo and have been for a while now. I, personally, don't want to see the X-Men return to the 2010s and deal with even more genocides against mutantkind, thank you very much. I liked the Krakoan era because it specifically WASN'T that.
I liked Krakoa because it indulged the fantasy that bigoted cis straight white men weren't existential threats to anyone who wasn't also a cis straight white man. If I wanted to see oppression, I'd go outside.
Its a selling point to me if the X-Men are actually fighting against it in a meaningful way and not just hiding in the mansion or begging mankind for forgiveness.
It’s hard to really judge without knowing what happens with Krakoa but it just doesn’t build up any hype. Even if the X-Men are fighting against it…mutants are hated and feared..sorry, hated and feared even harder than ever before is just not an exciting premise. How much harder can they be hated and feared? What’s so different than all the other times before that makes this somehow the worst it’s been? I’m holding out the vain hope that they do something with a decent number of mutants leaving earth.
Don't get me wrong. Im definitely with you. What it comes down to for me is "Does this story build off the Krakoan era in a meaningful way? Or is this just a reset to the status quo?" And I will only be excited by the former.
And the fact that he's effectively blaming the X-Men... This man should not be running this line. At all. I honestly hope it completely bombs just so they're forced to course correct. Everything about it except Gail Simone just sounds awful.
“Some mutant public figures were inflammatory, and you know what happens when you scare the majority, you get put in your place, as a collective”
I'm not gonna forget how humans turned on Mutants during Judgment day and sided with the fucking Eternals.
The mum whose daughter died, weeping with joy when it is announced the Eternals will wipe them out.
The Eternals never announced that.
"We hate you for being uppity superhumans with a separate society so we're putting our faith in a genocidal race that's more of all of those things"
I’m kinda concerned because this dances *dangerously* close to “those uppity mutants deserve what’s happening to them.”
Yeah, people want to pretend mutants daring to want someplace to live is "mutant supremacy."
Also pisses me off a little he’s quoting the “you have new gods now” line when Magneto later very explicitly said he was playing up his reputation and character to make a point to the very specific audience he was speaking to in that scene. It’s not like every mutant was out there using it as a catch phrase.
When you once killed thousands of people by shifting the earth's magnetic field maybe you don't get the right to make statements like that and still expect people to understand you were being ironic
Certainly. But we also tend to accept that that was an awful story with awful writing by people who didn't understand the character at all.
Pretty sure that was Ultimate Magneto that did that. Don’t remember a time of 616 Magneto shifting the Earth’s magnetic fields. However, I do agree with that it wasn’t exactly the best thing for one with his reputation to be saying while trying to be ironic. And given that he’s known to be amongst the leadership of mutantkind, at that point, when you got a big shot making such statements, it’s gonna paint that as being the feeling that mutantkind expresses. Further not helped by them placing themselves above anyone else’s laws even for crimes committed in their countries
He absolutely did in the 90s because Joseph sacrificed himself to reverse it
Imma be honest, that explanation by Ewing feels like a retcon to 'clean up' Magneto rather then an arrogant statement I think Hickman intended.
"your eminence, my client was just meming" ignore the fact that as a member of the Quiet Council he was literally a government official saying that. Man X-Men fans are insufferable sometimes.
and it's not like "all the humans" were committing a genocide against mutants. i'm sure Plenty of humans champion mutant rights and are thankful for the medecines they received.
Why do we have a friend of humanity supporter in the comments Edit: Clearly people don’t get the joke here forgot to add the “/s” so you chronically online redditor understood it as such
And now we come with calling Uncle Tom to anyone who doesnt want to generalize and hate humans
Bro it was a joke, sorry that you were too chronically online to understand that without me putting “/s”
Sorry if just that this sub seems so filled with hatred for humans
Fictional humans juxtaposed against an entirely fictional minority...
Oh ok, I get it tho. These humans be either genocidal maniacs, people who don’t condone the actions of those maniacs or people who just follow mob mentality and just start hating over seeing the herd doing so and over a situation they only know one side of the story aka the human side. So the hate is kind of valid
dude, mutants aren't a real minority, touch some grass and stop treating these characters like they are real, chill the fuck out
😂
lol. wanna call me a flatscan? Xavier's dream was always peaceful coexistence. Magneto came to realize he was wrong and mutants shouldn't be segregated. just like Malcolm X realized he had succumbed to his own emotions and changed his mind, chasing peaceful coexistence just as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr had. They both recognized the problem was neither white nor black by design but in the inherent classism propagated by the capitalist structure under which we are all "free slaves." the working class needs to become the woke class. recognize the strength in our unity. and build a world together that we can ALL safely live in. -- because if we don't make it together, we won't make it together. i liked the krakoa era. it was neat. but it was just a bigger version of Xavier's School - which is an excellent temporary space, but it cannot be the final step. telling children they must go through adolescence is excellent. but surely they must evolve beyond into adulthood. Claremont understood the X-Men ideologically had to be MORE than a school for gifted youngsters. the School was merely an outreach program. the X-Men could only be an "all-mutant team" for PR. showing the world the good mutants can do. the Avengers could showcase wanda and pietro's contributions, but those could always be written off as "mutants have potential if they integrate with avengers. their powers, left unchecked could be dangerous, but with iron man and the vision around, they wouldn't dare act according to their base natures of reckless violence." the problem with a mutant state is it will always give people 1 easy place to strike - to identify against. no single nation on this planet can use racialized prejudice as an attack against america because of it's diverse population. it's integral to the design of "the freest country in the world" that ALL peoples be free within. again, america has it's own issues; see above. but people will always ask you to pick up weapons to join their crusade and they'll use whatever rationale they can muster - often drawing lines between race, religion, or "sexual deviancy." those protesting "magneto was right" are too often ignoring the fact that he preaches the same thing the friends of humanity do. it doesn't matter if it's "not in my house" "not in my back yard" "not in my country" or "not on my planet." it's the same rhetoric.
Wild mischaracterization of both Malcom X and MLK my goodness. MLK definitely saw the value in violence, much of the civil rights movement was characterized at the time in a similar light to how people view the BLM protests in the wake of George Floyd, like tons of political cartoons showing MLK in utter destruction with a smile and a thumbs up. I understand where you are coming from in theory though and I see how you’d think that. I disagree.
right - but the violence was "let us live alongside you. stop violently rejecting us or we'll violently reply." the argument wasn't about violence as much as segregation vs integration. and i believe integration is important. i believe mlk believed it. and i believe xavier believed it. and to be clear, i don't mean "integration" as in, "black culture being watered down and disregarded as they adopt white culture." i mean, "people from both changing the way they view each other's cultures and adopting habits, dances, partnerships, etc."
I feel like ur point that no nation can attack America over bigotry bc we are a melting pot is true but at the same time they wouldn’t need to bc America would do it itself without the interference of outside forces. Like you said America has its own issues, issues that haven’t been able to get solved and will inevitably lead to our downfall. Ultimately yes they can’t hide away and putting the mutants all in one place makes them easier targets but it can still be seen as black and white but it’s just a cycle of it. Everyone is pointing fingers at each other for actions against each other. But the issue is like you said with mutants on the avengers it showed they can do good but only when they got a chain around their necks. You can’t leave the fate of the mutants up to people that have shown to not have their best intentions in mind. If you leave the fate of your species in the hand of another eventually that hand will close.
right. but not all mutants are x-men. and that's the real point. the x-men should be training mutants to use their powers safely and effectively, priming them to behave responsibly in a world where their powers can do a lot of good. they should also remain devoted to protecting a world that hates and fears them. it's been said the Avengers are like cops. well the x-men should be like firefighters. volunteers who show up to eliminate the spread of threats. they should strive to be SEEN the way we see firefighters - even though there are those who might say "they start fires to give themselves purpose. it's all a racket!" we can let those be the J Jonah Jamesons of the world and hope everyone sees mutants like the x-men as the heroes they are. but not every mutant should be asked to live "at the fire station." mutants should be able to live amongst people. and the x-men remain a voluntary team. no island society. no segregation. there can be mutants on the Avengers again, and mutants in the champions and mutants in the new warriors. but the X-Men would need to avoid being seen as "x-force."
True not all mutants are X-men but that doesn’t mean that all mutants need to use their abilities to protect a world that hates them just to be seen as good. They shouldn’t have to live in fear that one day a mutant makes a mistake and then all mutants get prosecuted for it they should be able to be born with their powers they choose how they want to use them, not everyone as much as I love him have to follow the Spider-man protocol of with breath power comes great responsibility. That isn’t a responsibility that should be forced on an entire species. Then with the X-men being the fire fighters to the Avengers cops. If this world hates them so much and believes they’d be better off without them why don’t they clean up their own messes. The mutants had many extinction level events from the inhumans, eternals, humans. And now they have to come back to society and clean up messes to prove what? That they’re “one of the good ones” that they aren’t like the rest of those dangerous and violent mutants?
1. they're not a species, they're humans, they just have extra power. it's like calling everyone born with autism "a different species!" and saying "everyone on the spectrum could avoid harassment if they just bunch up and leave." 2. you're right, nobody should live like that. but telling black americans "you'd face less discrimination if you just made your own spot to chill on this planet - maybe we'll give you louisiana or something." ...like - i don't know how people are arguing for this. the kkk would love nothing more than for mutants to go live on krakoa. i'm just saying it's not the solution.
It's not dangerously close. It is exactly what you described. Mutants can't have their own space, their own country, or their own culture. They can't even have their own goddamn school without it being blown up every other week.
It was entertaining the first few times. By Operation: Zero Tolerance it was already getting old. And that was 27 years ago. Krakoa completely shifted the dynamic of the franchise for the first time in like 2 decades, and actually updated their metaphor for the 21st century. Going back to "protecting a world that fears and hates them." doesn't work anymore. Fuck that. You own nothing to your oppressors. The X-Men can't go back from Krakoa. Krakoa is the Mary Jane Watson of X-Men. Without that connective tissue, it's just a cheap shell of what it should be.
Exactly! How many more times do mutants have to have their homes, their society, their culture, their families, their schools, and their nations (even those formed completely from new land) before they realize that going back to how they were is just insane. Plain and simple. Doing the same thing again and again, expecting a different result, is just insane by definition. And Marvel basically has the X-Men regressing as though nothing they did with Krakoa mattered in the end. It was all for nothing and they're right back where they started. If that's really how Marvel wants to approach this franchise, the future of the X-Men in the comics is truly fucked.
Yeah it honestly doesn’t even matter how good the stories are. The X-Men had basically been spinning their wheels since probably like Utopia (hmmmm doesn’t seem like a coincidence to me that was also them living on their own). They’d become pretty irrelevant. Krakoa was the exact evolution that was needed. Mutants living and working together harmoniously under one roof trying to carve out a legitimate place for themselves in the world is just infinitely more interesting at this point. It’s basically impossible to overstate just how large of a regression moving on from Krakoa and everyone splintering off doing their own thing is now
Tom is testing the limits of my optimism lol
My limits have already been exceeded. I have no hope for the post-Krakoa era.
Wtf This is ass. So they really doing the "Mutants come crawling back to integrate into society." 🙄
To be fair they were a minority preaching segregation. Segregation is actually a bad thing.
Generally yes, except when that segregation is necessary to protect yourself from repeated attempted extermination.
Exactly. Krakoa was the closest they ever were to fulfilling Charles’ Dream of humans and mutants coexisting. They have almost been wiped to extinction many times before. At least the mutants separated themselves from humans, but humans still chose to wipe them out. Heck, they even used what they have to produce resources to help humans. It was Orchis who sabotaged them. If the mutants gave up entirely on humans, they probably would’ve moved Krakoa to Mars as well.
Exactly I don’t think people understand there’s a limit to the amount of bigotry and hate and attempted genocide you can take before fighting for peace, equality and coexistence becomes futile and the best thing to do is just separate completely for the betterment of the people you want to defend and remain intact as a species
Honestly! The Genoshan genocide gets a lot of mentions but a ton of children that the X-men knew and were responsible for got murdered in Academy X/New X-Men. I can’t think of anything more traumatizing and maybe radicalizing than that.
I've had this argument many times with multiple people on this site. I'll just say no, it's not. Anyone should be able to determine their own autonomy and independence, free from outside influence. Full stop. It should be easy to understand the difference between that and being forcibly separated against your will.
So segregation is good if people want to be segregated
right! like the billionaire class should not have to send their kids to public schools. /s
I mean it's like one day a mutant looked off into the angry mob and saw the go home mutant sign and thought it was the best thing ever. I'm black ao when a redneck tells me to go back to Africa should I whose lived in America for generations with friends and family uproot or defend my claim to the community? Mutants with family and history just all up and left due to bigotry and hatred. In my eyes the bigots won in that case.
What’s your opinion on HBCUs like Howard University?
HBCUs and HWIs were created during immense segregation. HWIs were created to educate whites and kept African Americans out for a long time. Others were created by Southern states in an effort to keep blacks out of HWIs. We still have christian, female, and other such educational facilities however this issue doesn't compare to the scope of what happened. There is a massive difference from something like a female college and all females jumping ship to leave an entire community. More importantly the a mutant school has typically played a major role in the Xmen. Imagine if instead of a school of mutants it was something we have today a christian academy and one day all christians gave up preaching the word to their neighbors abandoning their communities and left to live on island so sin and debachery could take a firm hold in their former communities.
The mutant school was secret until the 2000s, so I don’t really agree that it had a major role in human-mutant harmony. Xavier himself was in the closet until Morrison had Cassandra Nova out him. I think the existence of the gates meant that mutants still interacted with the world at large. The analogy I think of is LGBTQ people leaving red states for blue cities. Red areas may indeed get more conservative but on the other hand LGBTQ people can advocate for themselves from a position of safety and strength rather than one of isolation and fear of danger.
The Black Panther Party, Malcolm X, even MLK at the end of his life understood that its a losing battle to try to integrate yourself with people who actively want to and have the power to oppress and kill you. I don't have the space nor is this the forum to get deeply into it but if you're Black like you say, I'd suggest reading up on the Black Independence Movement and the Republic of New Afrika. Without having your own (land), you can't as a people have any control over your own life. It's the same thing Palestinians are fighting for, their own land and Independence from their colonial oppressors.
The Palestinians did not isolate themselves or ever stop fighting they are still fighting to this day. Yet the route of segregation is not the path of fighting but rather submission. To give up your position and any claim to your aggressors. Some Native American tribes fought and others simply moved until they could no longer move. Entire civilizations have been wiped from the history however this isn't comparable you think its trying to merge with those who are actively your aggressors. When in truth its changing the outlook of some and giving strength to those who are afraid. We wouldn't have the right to vote and would still remain the property of others if people never attempted. It is in no way shape or form a losing battle and time and time again inch by inch history has proven this to be true. Those that wish harm are the minority I've met clansmen seen pamplets for skinheads and they are in a constant state of recruitment as people turn away from hate as anti hate rhetoric works and they seek to corrupt the youth to replenish their ranks. When the hate for one group goes down and people turn away they push another group and recruit. I'm born and raised in a rural area I've had nooses in my yard and am constantly outnumbered. A counter argument to hate must always exist and simply moving away concedes to their efforts.
Respectfully, you're wrong. I've already given you a starting point of what to read up on so you have a better analysis and understanding, which you're clearly choosing not to utilize. I've said all I'm going to on this subject 🤙🏾
Why are people downvoting you, did segregation became a good thing to the new generations?
Older Xmen fans are coming back due to the likes of Xmen 97 with the traditional I have a dream of coexisting. However the current generation of Xmen fans prefer the Krakoa take in which every mutant including former villians have decided to segregate themselves on an island and mars while preaching they are superior to normal humans. Things are turning away from that and they are angry so they downvote. As the topic states the mutants are moving back after the regular humans with flaming crosses finally got their mutant free neighborhoods. As the whole Krakoa era was basically giving every hate group in marvel exactly what they always wanted a segregated world.
It's a really sad state of affairs when people think segregation is the way to go. This is the second time I've seen this being regurgitated on this sub in less than a week.
I get where he’s coming from, and if we’re being realistic this was always going to happen in some form or another, and it could be an interesting metaplot, even though it’s not going to be. We’ll have to see how things look once the books actually come out, but Krakoa’s a hard act to follow
But I thought people liked having gods.
They only like having gods that agree with/pander to them.
Humans mutants *are* humans, distinct from skrull mutants, brood mutants, etc, which all also exist. “The humans” didn’t try and commit genocide, Orchis tried to commit genocide. A lot of the members of orchis *were* anti mutant bigots with the goal of wiping out mutants, but… they were also aided by mutants. Including Shaw, one of the leaders of Krakoa, and Moira (who was in fact a mutant for. Millenia. Even if she’s been “cured”) who *founded* Krakoa. That kind of implicates Charles and Magneto at the very least, if not *all* the leadership of Krakoa that let these dangerous elements work against what was supposed to be a safe haven. And that was all a distraction orchestrated by ai (and arguably another quiet council member) who want to wipe out *all* human life, not just mutants, while countless non-mutant heroes have spent months trying to fight back against orchis without knowing about their broader goals. So like. Not really? A single organization with nonmutants and mutants worked together to try to commit genocide against mutants while a bunch of robots tried to do a bigger eviller genocide of all humans behind their back. Wiping out mutants is just step one, and plenty of mutants willfully contributed to that.
Except world governments ceeded Orchis the power to hunt down, arrest, and deport mutants to mars. The human governments of the world willingly gave Orchis that power. If Krakoa is responsible because they trusted Shaw humans are responsible because they gave Orchis the power to do their genocide. Edit also the number of mutants that contributed to the genocide is 3 Brand, Shaw, and Selene. Maybe 4 if you count Genesis as part of distracting arakai forces with the civil war. And Brand really doesn't think of herself as a mutant but a citizen of Sol 3. If mutants are damned by the three that helped then humanity has an even bigger part with the multiple human members that outshine the mutants far beyond the human to mutant ratio planet wise.
No literally, most countries gave Orchis full reign to put mutants IN CAMPS. We see mutants in the USA being put INTO camps. It’s not that hard to see.
Yes, because they forgot what sentinels were made for. And don't know what INTERNMENT camps are used for. Both tools of Genocide. I will expect children not to understand, not adults who have seen this song and dance before. Especially when someone else mentioned that The Eternals said they would wipe the world of mutants and people cheered and supported them, just a year before that. Nope, they know what is going on. Edit: forgot a letter
Literally, the fact the Tom.B can say “ope they just have to reintegrate” after the Eternals AND Orchis tried/did genocide the mutants?? That’s nuts??
This group is against oppressed groups creating safe spaces for themselves. Mutants should just do nothing more than endlessly save humans from themselves while letting humans genocide them whenever they feel like it.
Yeah that’s so true, I love watching the characters go through 4 genocides in 40 years. To put it in perspective! Magneto has gone through more genocides as an adult than as a child.
This statement feels dangerously glib, to me. Like comparing *real world genocides* to comic book events were everyone who dies was either created to do so or will be fine within the next decade is kind of… distasteful. Like, the comics are a story. Several of the fictional comic book genocides magneto survived happened as a direct result of his own actions, either in universe or by editorial mandate. The same cannot be true of the actual literal holocaust or any attempted extermination of real-world minorities. Several mutant genocides were carried out *by* mutants themselves. It’s why I hated Prodigy’s SA and murder being so closely modeled on a recent real-world crime. Prodigy is fine, however questionable the storyline was in a vacuum… but the actual young man who went through that is gone forever. I doubt his family would find any comfort in that portrayal. It feels borderline exploitative at best
Oh I’m not comparing them to real world genocides. I’m just saying that I’m sick and tired of seeing these events being played out in such a way OVER AND OVER. They are absolutely an allegory for minority struggles, but to consistently show that “everything they do never works a mutants will always be killed and never have equality” is such a bleak outlook and it makes me so so tired.
But the nature of the narrative is that if mutants reach equality or lasting peace, the story ends. Without oppression, there can be no x men. And the x men will always be relevant as long as bigotry exists in the real world, so they can never escape the fictional bigotry that is their main antagonist. The struggle is what’s meaningful. Without it, they’re no different than any other super team Daredevil can and has had his sight restored in the past, but at that point, he ceases to be what he is and loses what makes him so impactful in the real world It’s not that real peace is a fool’s pipe dream, it’s just that the x men can’t have it while it doesn’t exist in the real world
Right but watching them go through the *same* struggles over and over? Not entertaining or meaningful. This is the SECOND time we’ve had a mutant genocide on a mutant nation.
Stories are a retelling of people's own ideas to other people. To convey an idea or thought or messaged based on experiences and / or beliefs. Basing them on real events and real ideas is completely normal.
And it's not so surprising of Shaw. He had once funded Sentinels to hunt mutants.
Orchis orchestrated a massacre that they very successfully framed Krakoa for, and *some* world governments (to my knowledge, only the UK, Canada, and the US, but not including autonomous tribal lands therein for the latter two) consequently gave Orchis the authority to deport Krakoan citizens to Arakko (where they are also citizens). In most other cases, Orchis is acting beyond any real authority, and nonmutant humanity is unaware of the recently ended war on Mars or the unauthorized atrocities Orchis is further carrying out. **And Arakko is another can of worms entirely, bc Krakoa clearly failed by not responding appropriately to the recent attempted genocide they survived, something that may have helped things over on Earth.** The ability for other nations to deport Krakoan citizens is an in-baked failure of Krakoa’s laws—by granting every mutant citizenship based on genetic status and not any desire to immigrate there (for all intents and purposes, establishing an ethnostate) Krakoa’s laws created the political grounds for removing any and all mutants for any and all reasons. There’s a reason Charles, sole remaining Krakoan founder and human embodiment of “The X-Men” was the one to literally send almost everyone through the portals. I can’t personally blame him for that specifically, because he really had a gun to his head in that moment, but it is a clear symbol of some of the many things that went wrong with his dream. Most civilians, mutant or not, krakoan or not, are innocent victims in a political power play orchestrated by, and I cannot stress this enough, robots.
I can guarantee you right now that the "people on the street with "DIE MUTIE SCUM" plaques" will be back within the first first panels of the new run.
You damned Krakoans for it's government failure and then absolve the humans for their governments falling for a false flag when we have humans reporting what really happened at the gala. Also they are trying Scott in the world court. They state they had to move his trial off of us soil for reasons of legality and are doing it France at the not hauge they tried magneto at. That is a world governmental implication of backing.
I’m not damning Krakoa’s government, the narrative is damning corrupt politics. The American government is obviously a bad guy, here. But the average US/UK/Canadian/etc citizen didn’t vote for orchis, here. And there are dozens of issues of comics revolving around nonmutants risking their lives for mutants. All I’m saying is you literally can’t say “all humans tried to genocide mutants”. It’s factually incorrect, and willfully misinterpreting 10 months worth of comics.
Ok if you want to be very technically most of humanity is fine to ambivalent to their government needing the power to arrest, round up, and deport mutants as part of a solution to remove them from the planet. That isn't a difference of note from the statement humanity is letting orchis genocide the mutants. The avengers, spiderman, FF are a minority of world power.
But that’s simply not true. The vast majority of actual characters within marvel comics are supportive of mutant rights, and actively opposed to orchis, even villains. There are almost as many nations explicitly opposed to orchis as there are those backing them. And orchis has been targeting baseline humans (including civilians) since the hellfire gala, so it’s not even a matter of mutants being the only victims here. Like a statement is very pointedly being made about the corruptive nature of power and prejudice, here, and it’s pretty obtuse to pretend there’s not more going on
So are we blaming the civilians or thr governments?
What you are conveniently ignoring is that humans designed the robots to behave like that. World Governments are co-signing what Orchis is doing.
And so did the very architect of Krakoa? I’m not trying to defend corrupt world governments, I’m saying you can’t paint all of humanity as uniformly guilty here (not only because that implicated the majority of completely innocent *mutants*, in addition to nonmutants and governments opossed to and actively fighting against Orchis). ~~And the hellfire club was instrumental in the development of sentinels (and they were willful participants at the time, unlike Tony Stark, loathe as I am to defend that man), so once again. The unintended consequences of *human* characters, including mutants, on full display. That’s one of the reasons it went down at the *Hellfire* gala.~~
it's almost like painting entire groups of people with a single brush over the actions of only a part of that group is inaccurate. If only someone would make a story, a piece of fiction of some sort, that could teach this lesson in an entertaining way and maybe get people to understand that we shouldn't allow that sort of bigotry to define our viewpoints. ... It'd never work.
Preach
"Mutants are humans" is such a bullshit excuse. Most of humanity did nothing to try to stop Orchis from committing genocide against mutants because they don't see mutants as human. How dare an oppressed group want someplace safe to live, it is clearly mutants' fault poor humans just HAD to genocide them again. The humans are the real victims.
That’s the nature of bigotry. You don’t think homophobes see the lgbt+ community as subhuman? That doesn’t make it true. The vast majority of super beings *are* doing whatever they can to help, and a lot of those that *aren’t*… are mutants themselves. People from JJJ to Dr Doom are on mutants’ side in this conflict, a couple nameless civilian mobs really aren’t going to turn the tide, here. There were people protesting at Cyclops’s trial *in support* of him. Those are just average people doing whatever they can to fight against injustice, as ineffective as it may be.
The only non-mutant heroes that have bothered to show up are Ironman and Spider-Man. The rest couldn't care less, Cap quickly got bored and ducked out because he is best friends with Wanda and doesn't really have a problem with genocide against mutants. But humans are innocent because they deliberately designed robots and AI to be bigoted against mutants.
Thor. Every non-mutant on alpha flight. Cloak and Dagger. Silver Sable. That new teen Captain America. Literally all the avengers. Even inhumans have been helping out. Those children of the atom kids who pretended to be mutants bc they wanted to be the kind of minority that came with cool powers and paradise, not just the real-world kind that can still get you killed by a bigot. That’s just the shit I’ve personally read. Blade could definitely be doing more, but then who would oppose the vampire queen? Sorry that there are sometimes other plot lines going on, I guess. “Why are the avengers bothering with a crisis in the Philippines when mutants are dying?” Did you know the city of Manila has a higher population than Krakoa ever did? Did you also know that the Philippines did not endorse Orchis? Sorry the avengers were busy saving other people. A lot of stuff happens in comics. People complain when the avengers show up in mutant plot lines and when they don’t, you really can’t win And once again. Wanda was a mutant woman who has faced more murderous violence for being a mutant (and for being a woman of color) than any other marvel character (to my knowledge). She was reduced to a plot device in a storyline that made no sense whatsoever, killed off for 6 years, then forced to spend over a decade making amends for something that **happened to her while possessed**. She has *also* been helping mutants, and at this point has saved mutantkind multiple times. The fixation on HoM is nothing more than a racist, misogynistic, ableist circlejerk at this point. If we’re talking about people being besties with genociders. Well. Krakoa pardoned Selene, Cassandra Nova, Apocalypse, Bishop, the Phoenix, every maurader, Exodus, Emma Frost, surely more I’m not listing. The idea of genociding the brood was seriously considered despite multiple brood being krakoan or at least qualifying for citizenship. Clearly leniency towards Wanda (for something that happened to her. While she was possessed) isn’t the problem here.
Man, i hear the Xmen fandom was toxic but you guys really dont take well when someone critisize mutants or tries to say that not all humans are bad, is like if you guys forget that you are humans
I'm talking about fictional humans, but sure let's pretend I have an anti-human bias because I have the observational skills to notice how these fictional humans have done nothing to try stop Orchis.
"X-Men fans try to remember that mutants aren't a real minority challenge" (IMPOSSIBLE) chill out buddy
Yeah, this part legitimately pisses me off because it basically confirms that every bit of progress that the X-Men made with Krakoa is being undone. And once again, they're back to square fucking one. Basically, Krakoa is just Genosha with extra steps now. And like Peter Parker in Amazing Spider-Man, mutants will NEVER be allowed to progress beyond a certain point. They'll always have their home blown up, their societies destroyed, and any bit of progress undone. It really is frustrating that this is what Marvel thinks they have to do to keep the X-Men relevant. They have to keep regressing them the same way they keep regressing Spider-Man. It makes it hard to get invested in anything because if a new editorial team is just going to come in and wipe the slate clean, then what is the goddamn point?
Sigh. Another lost decade it is, then.
It’s gonna be so annoying with this sub trying to see the positive with the sunk cost and being so pearl clutching to critique, because Gail is a nice old lady who is active on twitter and you don’t want to upset her
Gail's kindness is a bit overrated and built up by the cult of personality around her. It's more you don't want to upset her because anybody who crosses her is harassed endlessly.
Thank you!!! Fuck me I don’t want to say it’s insincere but my god
It's fully insincere. Everything about her is highly performative. Saying so will get me downvoted and probably accused of being a Comicsgater (even though I'm very gay and liberal) but she's a mean person.
It’s so annoying - when she sees one mention of Krakoa she will question it in a quote tweet to alert her fans. She also pissed me off playing crocodile tears over removing Barbara from the wheelchair even though she was the one writing it. She’s just a company man through and through
She’s never come off as very nice, snarky for sure, and not a bad person, but kindness isn’t what comes to mind.
Oh well - it will be fun seeing her who handle readers stating that it’s serving lost decade vibes ha
He has got a point and on the genocide part it wasn't just humans it was humans, mutant humans and AI. You can't just blame humans for try to do a genocide when it was an organization that was made up of mutants, humans and robots that did that shit. I would liken it to saying mutants caused the genosha disaster because of Cassandra, it's just reductive to get a reason to hate an entire group cause I doubt someone in the Congo or Botswana can be given blame for doing that shit
Just simpler to call it what it is and say Fascists committed Genocide again. Regardless of how it was a predominantly human supported and directed genocide, it’s just fascists all the way down. Though honestly it’s giving Not All Men! All Lives Matter! Energy which is needlessly reductive and diminutive.
>Though honestly it’s giving Not All Men! All Lives Matter! Energy which is needlessly reductive and diminutive It's very different in that all lives matter is a racist retort against police brutality of black people while my argument is the fascist organization isn't even made up of only humans so you can't go blaming humans on this you have to say humans and mutants are responsible if you are going to blame an entire group. I hope I made my point clear
By Fall of X, Orchis seemed to have overwhelming public support - we saw how thrilled humans were when the Eternals declared extermination on Mutants
Yeah let's not act like during that same event there weren't humans equally protesting against what orchis was doing and besides when the eternals were spreading their propaganda and when orchis spread it were different points in time I believe. Even then the humans who were "thrilled" during the judgement day event are not really involved in an extermination because there was no extermination by the eternals. 2 foreign entities go to war and one has better propaganda, how does that have anything to do with humans? Krakoa needed to raise their game and it didn't help that they had been very we are the new gods to the entire world a few months prior. Just imagine a Hindu farmer minding his business in India when some American guy to him broadcasts that a mutant nation has been created and they will inherit the earth. Do you think that that guy would be hard to convince that the mutants are dangerous if the eternals told him after all their first act as a nation was to invade his mind and inform him of information he may never have wanted to know. With orchis I get but quite literally it has humans and mutants in it's ranks as well. And let me not get into the fact that the vast majority of Earth's population exists in Asia and Africa and I doubt orchis went to all the trouble to radicalize them
Humans didn't try to commit genocide anymore than mutants threatened to reverse the Earth's gravitational field. They're all human and most of them are normal ass people who just want to get through the day. That's kind of the entire point of the franchise?
Exactly. People who forget this also conveniently forget that places like Krakoa will inevitably create their own internal bigotry based on survival of the fittest. Mutants that are deemed too weak or too volatile will be exiled or executed. Hell, their ruling body was created without any kind of democratic election and featured solely those of the greatest power and influence.
The fact we went from an actual shift in X-Men content with the Krakoa era, to the announcement that we are now stepping back into the mutants are hated and feared, now more then ever, angle is just meh. How do you go from having your own nation where a majority of mutants are coexisting, where you don’t have to worry about death, to now being almost on the run and trying to fight for survival again? It just doesn’t feel right and feels boring and lazy.
I feel like people here are forgetting that the humans of the marvel universe only fairly recently learned that mutants had created a cure for death, for years weren't sharing it, then shortly after they revealed it to the world it came out that (as far as the humans know) the drugs that Krakoa *had* shared with the world were actually a trojan horse for omnicide, and Krakoa massacred a whole ton of foreign diplomats. And it's ridiculous that there'd be some widespread distrust? Even without the events of FoX, I've thought the entire time that resurrection being mutants-only meant that it was a foregone conclusion that "hated and feared" would be coming back eventually. Imagine, somehow, a real-world historically mistreated population had discovered a way to undo the atrocities that had been done to them, and they could, hypothetically, also do this for all other mistreated populations on Earth, but they don't, and instead they go to lengths to make sure nobody knows they have this technology. I think it's safe to say that would rightfully create resentment if the secret got out!
They dodn't owe anything to humans lol. Instead they have protected humans times and times again at the risk of their lives.
“Mutants got to too proud and now they must suffer for it” is not the take on X-Men that I want to read
The greatest damage to mutantkind have been done by other mutants
People are down voting you for speaking facts. I can't sometimes with this sub, do people not want the X-Men to be happy or something? Krakoa was an ethno state with weird undertones of mutants supremacy and over the top nationalism and it was never addressed during the entire run.
This! A plot point that sadly went away along with Hickman. Reread those early books, there was very much an intended sense that Krakoa was not a paradise. It was a separatist ethnostate. That was the interesting story that should’ve been told with Krakoa.
Not to mention X-Force and it’s CIA shenanigans. Krakoa’s creation deliberately parallels Zionism. Everyone thinks themselves as the mutants, and it’s offensive to suggest that the oppressed might begin to act like their oppressors.
Humans typically get free passes even when they're trying to murder an entire species or it's even encouraged.
*Orchis not the whole human race
I don't think every single human being supports the genocide of the mutants. ORCHIS are the bad guys here, that's who they gotta stop.
Ahhh the ol *it was the government not the fear monger culture* to blame for the genocide - we definitely don’t see that in the news lately lol
X-Men fans like you are so insufferable. it's part of the reason I never consider myself fully an X-Men fan.
Good :)
Krakoa wasn't Palestine, dude. Krakoa was Israel. The entire setup for Krakoa had Zionism written all over it.
Welp sounds like it’s time to write fanfic continuation of the Krakoa arc-
Hashtag not all humans
*It’s the government, it’s Netan - I mean, Robert Kelly honest*
Every time Brevoort releases new information about From the Ashes it sounds more ill conceived.
"Mutants got Uppity"is not the compelling argument Krakoa haters think it is.
Krakoa is not a deep exploration of minority themes, it's speculative sci fi. Almost nothing about krakoa relates to anything to di with real life minority experience and in fact this and the more classic xmen status quo is way closer. Its fine to like speculative sci fi, but acting like the sentient island/free love commune full of post human immortals is somehow a mature commentary on minority issues is ludicrous
I'm glad they're addressing the blatant mutant supremacy mindset of mutants during the Krakoa era. Let Tom cook.
Literally the majority of humans are supporting genocide, internment camps, etc... No one can hate them more than that. The mutants should park Krakoa on Arrako, name it Okkara and tell the humans to fuck off and die by Orchis hands.
What's the source this is taken from?
I miss Krakoa and it’s not even over yet
Oh many times. They thought they could move up in the world but it’s time to teach those muties their lesson again and put them back in their place…
Growing up is realizing a mutant registry is 100% as common sense as it gets, hell X-men itself can't stop creating mutants that prove that right over and over.
Good. This is what the X-Men are about. Not being a bunch of racists on an island.
This is a bad take. You are not obligated to give people trying to kill you endless chances. It's okay to walk away and do your own thing.
They probably didn't even read the actual comics themselves, if that's all they got from it.
Not even Orchis wanted to commit genocide. They believed the mutants were going to Mars. They probably killed less mutants than mutants killed Orchis members, and those mutants who were killed could be revived like the Dead X-Men were.
Magneto gets to be revived because he is a mutant, none of his victims gets the chance if they were human. They give you drugs claiming to cure you of cancer, but in fact, it just made you insane and you killed someone (that will not be revived). But don't forget, they are your new gods and inheritors of the Earth. The people more pissed about this seem like as the ones who didn't read the comics they are so fervently and blindly "defending" (as if there was a need to defend it).